MORMONISM COULDN'T BE CHRISTIAN

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Author Message   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:41 am:        I’m sorry to say that Mormonism couldn’t possibly be Christian. One very simple, yet basic reason is the fundamental, simple, yet important truth that Christianity is based upon dating back to its very inception. This “bottom line” so to speak, was and is a belief in only one God. Thus, Historical, Orthodox Christianity has been and is today Monotheistic. Mormonism on the other hand, discovered in the early 1800’s, is Polytheistic – belief in numerous gods (members in fact believe they can progress/ become – gods themselves ruling together as gods and goddesses over their own planet earth). That alone disqualifies Mormonism from being Christian – among many other reasons. I have a web site, but attempted before to place this on the boards, and since it didn’t appear and I’m new to the boards, I’m guessing I can’t have links on our posts? Regardless, I’m trying to post this again and offer to please feel free to contact me and I will provide the web site link. On the web site I’ve listed numerous reasons why Mormonism couldn’t be Christian, along with a very handy chart showing very clearly why Mormonism can’t possibly be Christian. This web site also explains my experience in the cult The Way International (TWI). Since leaving the cult and being delivered from the cult teachings, I have turned my life over to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, and have ministered to those trapped in cults such as TWI, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormonism. I realize the word “cult” is a terribly strong word, but the fact is, while Mormonism doesn’t fit the standard of being Christian, it definitely fits the standard of being a cult. I do not say this with pride or with joy. I merely state this as the truth because as with most Christian cults – Mormonism does not teach the truth about the gospel of Jesus Christ. "In Christ alone I place my trust..." (Message edited by cjv on April 26, 2005)   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 785 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.62 Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:07 am:        cjv, people give website and email addresses here all the time. Maybe you could try again.   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:50 am:        Hi, I did re-try and it appears this posting -- so far, is staying -- although the only change was I deleted the url link and added I thought that was why my first attempt might have been delted. Well -- no matter, for now, it seems it is staying. Thanks for the information though godchild. "In Christ alone..."   nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 7:16 pm:        cjv how do we contact you? You can as GC said post urls here. Nulla   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 266 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 10:11 am:        CJV: What I find amusing is that purported Christians like you spend so much time attempting to limit who can be called Christian - all the time it being your own personal biased opinion - when doing that is BLATANTLY not a Christian way to behave. Hmmm, who would really want to limit Christianity in that way? - only one being I know.   steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 87 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 1:11 pm:        CJV maybe u should use the word orthodox christian, even their own prophets have said they are not christian as defined by orthodoxy teaching, but considered other.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 800 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 3:19 pm:        Is the New Testament 'limiting' chrisianity when it gives warnings and defines false doctrines and prophets? I would say yes. In the end, the Lord will say "I don't know you". Why would we need warnings if it doesn't exist? The Lord obviously wants us to be certain.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 801 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 3:24 pm:        If mormons didn't also believe this, they would be willing to attend other churches. They would not say all other churches are an abomination to the Lord. I would call this a pretty biased view of christianity.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 806 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 4:22 pm:        Mormons can't seem to answer the question, who is their heavenly father's father? Is there a grandpa god?   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:15 pm:        Hi all, I'm sorry I didn't answer sooner -- spring time is very busy in our household with two teens in sports. Please feel free to contact me cjv123@comcast.net. Also, my web site is: http://users.churchserve.com/pa/obadiahministries/ I've taken a number of years to fine-tune the information there. By that I mean, when anyone, and this absolutely includes LDS contacted me and challenged any and I mean ANY information -- I checked, rechecked and then rechecked again to make certain that the information was factual and correct. In some cases, I was not correct, and in at least two cases, I corrected the information there according to information provided by LDS. My effort is not to hate the sinner, but hate the organization that leads the the sinner to sin. Ultimately, to tell the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. "In Christ alone..." Carol   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 807 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.75 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:26 pm:        I'm looking forward to visiting your site. a sister in Christ,   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:56 pm:        Dear joesdad, I'm afraid your information and assumption is not correct at all. I do not spend "so much time" limiting anyone. Anyone can worship whatever they want and whatever way they want. If someone wants to worship Elvis – be my guest. But if someone wants to worship Elvis and proclaim this new religion “Elvis Pelvis” is the ONLY true Christian Church – that’s when it’s my business, because as a Christian, I am called to defend the faith/contend for the faith – just as all true Christians are called out to do. Also, as Christians, we are called out to tell the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In fact, we are commanded to do so: "I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father....whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.... 2John 1:4,9a (always reading any verse in context) as well as: 3John 1:3-4 "For I rejoiced greatly, when the brethren came and testified of the truth that is in thee, even as thou walkest in the truth. I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth." Lastly, the entire book of Jude particularly verses 3 & 4: "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Remembering always -- Historical, Orthodox Christianity has been around for 2000 years -- Trinitarian. Mormonism came along in the early 1800's and early on -- declared itself the ONLY "true" Christian church. Thus, challenging MY faith. So technically, I am stepping up to the challenge and saying -- that proclamation -- still made by Mormonism today is absolutely false. So it's not a matter of me, Carol, saying who or who should not be Christian. It's a matter of me, defending my faith. I'm meeting the challenge, correcting the lies taught by Mormonism. In regard the rest of your e-mail: I noticed that you missed the point entirely and did not answer the challenge presented. Let's try that again and I'll explain it hopefully more explicitly: Christianity -- Historical, Orthodox Christianity -- established 2000 years ago. Early 1800's -- Mormonism is invented. Mormonism proclaims it is the ONLY true Christian religion. Modern Mormonism morphs into a religion that rejects the very essence of Christianity which says, there is only ONE God. There is only one Savior, there is only one Redeemer, Jesus Christ is God. There is one God in three persons – one TRIUNE God. "The Doctrine of the Trinity. The central dogma of Christian Theology. Viz. that the One God exists in Three Persons and One Substance…The Trinitarian teaching thus elaborated by the Scholastics, though challenged in the 17th century by Socinianism and Unitarianism, has remained the common inheritance of subsequent Western Theology.” The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 3rd ed. The Bible tells us Jesus Christ MUST be God (I will supply Biblical proof if asked to as it’s very lengthy). Mormonism REJECTS that there is only one god and produces a doctrine that teaches about many gods and that adherents can themselves BECOME gods if they live a life according to Mormon stated doctrine. Doctrine, by the way, not even based on Biblical teachings or principles. Therefore, Mormonism couldn’t be Christian. Carol – I don’t claim this – logically, this conclusion must be drawn. It would be as if I said: "I'm a Mormon. I do not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, I do not believe the Book of Mormon to be from God and I do not believe that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. But I still call myself Mormon." Mormons would then cry “You can’t be Mormon! You must believe in these basic fundamental teachings of Mormonism, or you couldn’t possibly be Mormon.” And that is just what I say here. One can’t reject the basic, historical, orthodox teachings of Christianity, which for over 2000 years has adhered to these basic fundamental teachings and then not only call your organization Christian (even though rejecting these basic teachings) but on top of that, have the audacity to teach – “You know that stuff that’s been taught by Christianity for 1700 years? Well – bunch of bunk – WE’RE teaching the only “truth” about the Bible here and Christianity. Doesn’t fly. So I’m merely defending my faith. Mormonism and the founders of Mormonism started it, please place the blame where blame is due. “In Christ alone…”   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:57 pm:        Dear steelsword, Thanks for the heads up about using the word "Orthodox." I usually do that, but slipped up this time. Thanks for pointing that out. "In Christ alone..."   steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.133 Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:32 pm:        cjv , You betcha, Steel.   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 267 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 8:23 am:        cjv: Unfortunately my home PC has died - so I'm limited to tiem I can get access from my work PC, but I'll try to reply fully soon. I can't agree to your claim of accuracy of your home page - I only had to read a little way to come upon some of the old "anti-mormon" rubbish, that those who are honest will know is purely sensationalism. May I mention that on another thread Steelsworld who is also ex-LDS states that LDS DO NOT believe in or teach the Adam-God theory - yet you say we do, we do not and to suggest otherwise is wrong plain and simple. To make a real impression you will need to be TOTALLY honest, and have a rethink about including the sensationalist stuff - just like including LDS spin offs in with the real Church - you know we are not one and the same, yet ignore that fact in favour of making a negative comment or point - that's just dishonest, OK?. Another samll point, as you know we are baptised "for" the dead, we don't baptise the dead as the link on your page states - again, if you attack, expecting no errors from that which you attack, shield yourself by not making obvious errors in what you claim, or delving into the areas of making purely false claims which you know or should know are false. (GC: Yes I know, you have lied over and over again, and I do not class cjv as being in the same league as you because at this point I am certain you lie with the knowledge you lie - she has yet to iron out ALL of the mistakes on her site) (Message edited by joesdad on April 28, 2005)   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:47 am:        Joesdad, I'm not certain a) you actually went to my web site. b) you read what is actually written, by me on my web site. and when you make charges, c) you should back up what you say. There is much "rubbish" on on the web site? Oh really? How so? Can you be more specific? I don't remember posting anything about the Adam-God theory. I may have posted a LETTER by a former LDS -- but that then is not my "mistake" or misinformation. If you refer to a LINK on my web site, I believe I made it clear that Obadiah Ministries is not responsible for content on other web sites. While I have visited these links, I do not monitor them. Read more carefully. Don't you think you should actually read the things you criticize before doing so? Now, if I've missed something and I HAVE put something pertaining to the LDS belief of Adam being god, I stand corrected and would appreciate you leading me to where I wrote this. Still, we do have a problem as this most definitely WAS a past teaching by LDS leadership for quite some time. Just because LDS today do not believe it, does not make the matter "rubbish." Your accusations are without merit. Again, I suggest you should read what is written, not merely skim the material, as it appears (in my experience) so many LDS do with the Bible. I suggest really read it, whatever you read, but more importantly, read the Bible. Actually read the words and what is says. Don't just take someone's word for it because an LDS tells you it is thus and so. Read the words, study the words, think about what is written. It's what finally made me realize the cult I was in -- The Way International -- was a cult. I found error in the way they led their lives when compared with Biblical teachings becasue I read the Bible through and through. After a quick review of my web site, I see nothing that is "rubbish" and would appreciate any clarification you can give -- with specifics please. Now to the Adam-God doctrine -- while I don't believe I have this on my web site, let's just see what LDS doctrine and leadership says about Adam-being-a-god just in case I do have something written there: "...When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body and brought Eve, one of his wives with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Arch-angel, the Ancient of Days!...He is our Father and our god, and the only god with whom we have to do..." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51 Brigham Young “Oct. 6th attend Conference, a very interesting Conference, for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve, ware [sic] the names of the first man and woman, of every Earth that was every organized, and that Adam and Eve were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that received, the tabernacles on this planet, [sic], consequently we are brothers and sisters, and that Adam was, god our Eternal Father…our Beloved Brother Orson Prat[t] told me he did not believer it he said he could prove by the scriptures it was not correct. I felt very sorry to hear professor, Orson Prat[t] say that, I feared lest he should apostatize…” Joseph Lee Robinson, in his journal and autobiography. Now I have numerous other quotes such as this that will prove LDS teachings has been for many years that Adam was god the father for LDS. While even within the LDS Church there was some controversy, none-the-less, this was something taught and believed by LDS leadership and LDS faithful. Here's the dilemma -- I realize LDS rely on "revelation" by their "prophets" and that LDS believe that modern prophets "overrule" so to speak, what prophets have said in the past. That being so, then that would make Brigham Young a false prophet. After all, he never said, “I have revelation about drinking coffee that an LDS should and should not do.” If Young said something such as that,it would make it almost understandable that there could be changes as times change or leadership changes. However, a fundamental teaching such as WHO GOD IS, is set in stone. This "prophecy" can not be undone or changed totally as apparently has happened. So are you joesdad, then prepared to say that Young was a false prophet? Because obviously he was dead wrong, even according to your own proclamation, this is something that is not taught now i.e. making Young WRONGO on who god is. On to baptizing. Please note – the word “baptize” in all its forms, is mentioned over 99 times in the Bible, Jesus even talks about baptism at length. Only one obscure verse MENTIONS baptizing for the dead, yet LDS base a very fundamental and “important” practice on this one obscure text. Even allowing for Bible parts to be “missing” or corrupted as LDS claim – baptism is still mentioned over 99 times – yet never is the LDS ritual for baptizing for the dead and its importance or anything of the sort that LDS practice today is detailed or discussed by anyone. And that would include Jesus Christ. If it was so important, why was it talked about so often all through the Bible but the LDS practice glaringly left out of all these discussions? Just food for thought. So – joesdad you said that what is written on the web site is inaccurate because to quote: “Another samll point, as you know we are baptised "for" the dead, we don't baptise the dead as the link on your page states - again, if you attack, expecting no errors from that which you attack, shield yourself by not making obvious errors in what you claim, or delving into the areas of making purely false claims which you know or should know are false.” So, as you stated yourself a LINK claims this. I did not say this. So what then makes my web site IN ANY WAY dishonest, a source of misinformation or otherwise when I take no responsibility for links and the contents therof? It would appear that your accusation might be falling apart at the seams. Faithful Mormons participate in a Temple Ceremony that baptizes for a selected...well...for lack of better word...dead person. It’s part of LDS “Temple Work.” “It is easy to understand how they in person could believe in Christ and even obtain the spirit of repentance; but water is an element of this world, and how could spirits be baptized in it, or receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? The only way it can be done is vicariously, someone who is living acting as a substitute for the dead.” Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 141 I do not see how my description is “sensational” here (as I’ve quoted from LDS doctrine) nor do I see it at my web site and I can't see any "rubbish" to speak of that I've written. But I’m open to suggestion. “…the greatest commandment given us, and made obligatory, is the temple work in our own behalf and in behalf of our dead.” Doctrines of Salvation Vol 2, p. 149 What does JESUS say the greatest commandment is? Mark 12:29-31 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. “The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead.” Joseph Smith ibid. p. 146 “I am deeply interested in genealogical work…I have in my employ a sister who devotes all her time to the preparation of genealogical records. Last year I expended in the neighborhood of $200.00 per month during the entire year for genealogical research work pertaining to the families to which I belong in direct descent and through marriage.” Temple Mormonism, New York 1931, pg. 10 Heber J. Grant, 7th President of the LDS Church. The Deseret News told of a woman who searched 15 years to find the names of some of her ancestors, Church Section, April 23, 1966, pg. 14 “The Church puts about $4 million a year into the Genealogical Society. It has 575 employees and is run by a board which includes to apostles. The microfilm unit sends crews all over the world to locate and photograph records…The negative microfilms are stored in a great vault system dug out of rocks of Cottonwood Canyon in the Wasatch Mountains southeast of Salt Lake City. This underground storage system was produced by the church at a cost of $2.5 million…” The Mormon Establishment, pp. 81-82 1Timothy 1:4 (KJV) "4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do." As we know, and can begin to see above by just a sampling of the proof that there is an LDS obsession with genealogy work and it is all in connection with baptizing for the dead and carelessly spends millions and millions of dollars on this useless activity, not to mention countless man-hours researching the names of the dead. This is strictly a Mormon practice and never practiced, nor has it ever been practiced by any true Historical Orthodox Christians. Ever. I’m afraid your computer “breaking” is not really an excuse to make spurious charges without being specific and without backing them up joesdad. If you can’t back up your charges, broken "puter" or not, then don’t make them. It's best to be quiet until you can substantiate your wild claims. Help me "iron out all those mistakes" would you because I'm not seeing them? Essentially, even though you didn't put me in the same catagory as another "liar" you mentioned, you still called me a liar -- nicely so -- but still the same -- that's just what you did. You just weren't sure I "lied" with forethought. How kind of you to give me that benefit of the doubt. How "Christian" of you. Name calling really isn’t going to work here – LDS often use the term “antis” which is always puzzling to me when it is they who came along and boasted their ANTI-Trinitarian dogma, and demanded that everyone believe, in the early 1800’s suddenly a religion cropped up that is the only “true” Christian religion. I would call LDS the ones who are “anti” as in Anti-Christian. Not the other way around. “In Christ alone…”   steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 96 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:55 pm:        Although in my post on Adam - God,which i was never taught, I did say i beleive Brigham Young taught this as doctrine,He had many conflicts over it, now as to the members of his time,they may or may not have followed this doctrine. I know Brigham , said nothing ever came from his mouth when addressing the saints , that was not doctrine. Was Adam-God Taught by a Prophet of the Lds , YES. Did the Members Follow this Doctrine? Yes,Maybe,No, depended on the member at the time.   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 268 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 1:22 pm:        cjv: I most certianly DID visit your site, and have again. I thought I'd give a few comments on what you produce there, bearing in mind that the comments are predominantly about the things you have chosen to produce, but as you have chosen them, you must also be branded by them. Lets go: On your opening page: 1) I ask what you mean by charismatic, in your description of a leader. I think you will agree after reading accounts of Joseph Smith, that he was no more charismatic than the next man, but of course that was not necessary for him to be called as a prophet of God. Then, you attempt this comparison with other groups, but ignore or totally miss the extreme difference, in that we have had a dozen other Prophets called of God since Joseph’s death, all of which having been given the mantle of Prophet and all have called upon the world to accept Christ, and each of whom have had no less authority to act in Gods name than Joseph. yet each acknowledges Josephs work in the restoration. Where to each of these fit in with your comparison? In fact the main goal of each Prophet is to ensure that Christ’s name is accepted in the hearts and homes of more people. 1) Again amusing that you on the one hand denounce us as non-Christian, then on your site refer to us as a Christian Cult. 1) We never claim to be the only true Christians. We declare that the fullness of the Gospel has been restored – acknowledging that over the past 2,000 years mankind has according to their own will and desires, or weaknesses changed and diluted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nothing NEW just the old RESTORED, again different form what you claim. 1) What does “mainstream itself into our culture” mean? 1) In reality your paragraph (or your entire site) contains not one single evidence of the Church being “based on the darkest of evil”, but in fact goes on to talk about matters than in no way link the Church to any kind of occult activities – pure sensationalism. You have an idea of the type of person likely to be referred to your site, an play directly on their fears and concerns about the world in which we live without giving any substance to your claims – shameful. 6) What evidence do you have that Joseph used a stone to “bilk (sic) many of his own townspeople out of their money claiming he could 'see' treasure underground with this 'peep' stone” – you simply want the reader to have a totally negative view of Joseph. Amazing that you insinuate that the Church would use underhand tactics to get people to believe it’s teachings when you in the space of a few paragraphs have purposely, and in an embarrassingly dishonest way painted an extremely biased view of the Church and Joseph!! - pot and kettle? 7) How after what you have said in opening your site, can you claim the purpose of the site is to point out the teachings of the Church, when you have not bothered so far. 7) You do not claim on your opening page to have been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints – yet claim to know of it – again would it not be more honest to state that the information you reproduce is predominantly from those who have left the Church through their dissatisfaction – not through the Church being wrong?. 7) The link to “Baptism of the Dead” to which I refer above leads to another page on your site correctly using the word “for”– therefore YOUR error. 7) 1 Corinthians 15:29 – Zero basis huh? – in reality zero basis for your claims. It is interesting at how you feel you have the right to simply discard this verse and it’s meaning because it does not fit in with what you think is true. As I pointed out above, your version of Christianity is the watered down one, allowing no way of understanding or accepting this verse. You in NO WAY prove that this practice is neither Biblical or non-Christian – and if you expect any sane person to rely on the Tanners – well enough said about those two, totally unreliable. 11) To Your link “Articles” – this begins with a statement with no indication if anyone other than you wrote it. 12) “Few details” intimates that he was not told something, but fails to say what – he says he was “deep” into studying the Church before hearing that we believe in three individual members of the Godhead, sorry but I have to ask where he was during the first 3 years, and during his missionary discussions – obviously paying no attention at all, as this would have been clear to him from the off – I’ve never been taught of Masonic chants in my 24 years in the Church! – Adam-God theory- this item was clearly not written by someone who was active in the Church as the article claims and is clearly a piece of fiction – which I presume you have written – I don’t say that because I do not LIKE what is said, but because it is false in what it says. – because of this I do not consider the other “letters” on the page to be reliable. 13) Your “Mormonism compared to Christianity” page is hilarious – How on earth can you claim that the Bible rejects new revelation – where? – We are monotheistic, you obviously do not understand LDS doctrine. Again, we do believe in a virgin Birth – again you are wrong. Again, we believe in salvation by grace AFTER all that we CAN do, we can’t earn it, a sloppy ignorance of LDS doctrine – how can you claim we deny the Atonement – this is false. Your description of LDS view of death is nonsense because of it’s lack of detail, and failure to define what you mean. In reality you comparisons are a ridiculous fantasy either fed to you, or produced by you through laziness and failure to discover true LDS teachings. (sorry, the weird numbering has been produced by my pasting from Word, and I can get rid of it!) Hey, If it's not Christian to call someone a liar when they are telling blatant falsehoods - what would a Christian call 'em? Atni? - I do try not to use this phrase, unless I find someone or something that is purposely attacking rather than trying to be educational - there are very few of the latter. I don't know what it is like to be caught up in a group like TWI - but your experince does not give you the right to make false claims about things of which you clearly have very little knowledge. Steelsworld, in your thousands of documents? - as you correctly say, LDS do not believe that God our eternal Father and Adam are the same beings. I could be unfair and say that your comment was an attempt to find a way out of simply stating the truth, but I'll leave that one for you to decide for yourself.   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 3:07 pm:        Dear SteelsSword, BTW -- I tried answering your e-mail to me, but it bounced back twice. That's just an FYI - I did answer you though! Maybe you have a spam filter of some type on???? And as to your memory about Brigham Young and his teachings -- somehow I missed your post before I posted my long missive. You are, in fact, absolutely right, and I have access to numerous Young quotes regarding his firm belief that Adam was "god the father." I also have access to LDS doctrine that states this was an LDS teaching for a very long time. May the scales fall from the eyes of the lost and may they come to know the true Jesus Christ and Savior! AMEN! "In Christ alone I place my trust..." Carol   steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 100 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 4:39 pm:        Joe again , i nowhere said that the lds of today believe that adam was God, But did Brigham teach this, Yes, we know from church documents he did. Did the faithful LDS of his time follow this teaching,I do not Know,for i never got a chance to talk to them.   steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 101 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 4:43 pm:        Cjv i will try again to email you ,latter this evening. I also : IN CHRIST ALONE   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 8:01 pm:        joesdad wrote: ”I ask what you mean by charismatic, in your description of a leader. I think you will agree after reading accounts of Joseph Smith, that he was no more charismatic than the next man, but of course that was not necessary for him to be called as a prophet of God.” By charismatic I mean what the 2nd definition says for the word: “2) special gift or power possessed by certain leaders that inspires undying loyalty and devotion among their followers.” Scribner-Bantam English Dictionary You said: ”Then, you attempt this comparison with other groups, but ignore or totally miss the extreme difference, in that we have had a dozen other Prophets called of God since Joseph’s death, all of which having been given the mantle of Prophet and all have called upon the world to accept Christ, and each of whom have had no less authority to act in Gods name than Joseph. Yet each acknowledges Josephs work in the restoration. Where to each of these fit in with your comparison?” I’m not at all sure what you are saying here, but on the web site, I distinctly said the cults were FOUNDED by charismatic type of men. Joseph Smith founded Mormonism. Were there other founders of Mormonism? Or are you attempting to discuss the splinter groups that branched off after Smith died? You said: (snip) ”Again amusing that you on the one hand denounce us as non-Christian, then on your site refer to us as a Christian Cult.” There is nothing amusing at all about what I wrote concerning the Mormon Church – is isn’t Christian, yet still proclaims itself to be Christian, that’s WHY it is a cult. You said: “We never claim to be the only true Christians.” Ooops, have to stop you there. That’s absolutely not true. “…there is no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints…” McConkie Mormon Doctrine p. 670 "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (D&C 1:30), the only organization authorized by the Almighty to preach his gospel and administer the ordinances of salvation, the only Church which has power to save" (Mormon Doctrine; 1977 ed, p. 136). I have numerous other quotes that prove you to be wrong on this one -- but these should do for now. I believe for years the statement that the LDS Church was the only true church was even on the first page of your BOMs for awhile. Given that Mormonism came along in the 1800’s – I – and others like me are defending OUR faith against the false claims of Mormonism. You said: “We declare that the fullness of the Gospel has been restored – acknowledging that over the past 2,000 years mankind has according to their own will and desires, or weaknesses changed and diluted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nothing NEW just the old RESTORED, again different form what you claim.” If it was “restored,” then it had to exist in the past. The Book of Mormon and all other “sacred works” published by the Mormon Church are new – as in – new since Mormonism was founded. They have never been part of Orthodox, Historical Christianity. So we can fight semantics – however, Mormonism and it’s dogma is new and has added to the Bible, taken things away from the Bible (and put them in the Book of Mormon) and so on. You wish to believe it is a restoration of what Christianity once was (according to LDS lore) however, the facts are different. You said: “What does ‘mainstream itself into our culture’ mean?” Well, it means what it says. Mormonism – at its inception, historically rejected Christianity and did not initially even attempt to call itself Christian. When it became evident that recruiting new members meant mainstreaming into society – then and only then – in the early or late 1970’s I believe, did the Mormon Church make noise about wanting to mainstream itself. I believe that is what you are looking for. Your question wasn’t very clear – sort of a sentence fragment and taken out of context (which you did not include) it isn’t easy to know what you were actually asking. You said: ”In reality your paragraph (or your entire site) contains not one single evidence of the Church being “based on the darkest of evil”, but in fact goes on to talk about matters than in no way link the Church to any kind of occult activities – pure sensationalism.” Then you didn’t read the whole site and all that was written that well. In addition, when any organization attempts to dupe the public that it is the only “true” Christian Church and it isn’t even Christian, that is demonic – that is an organization directly from hell. That alone is sufficient evidence proving the Mormon Church is “based on the darkest of evil.” However, I offered links to the Temple Ceremony – an cultic, evil, satanic ceremony that bounds the participants in spiritual evil. Along with personal stories from former LDS who have gone through terrible things while members and some when they left the church. I have filing cabinets full of horror stories of what this evil organization has done or allowed to happen to its own members. We can go into more of that later. You’ve written a long one here and I need to get to the rest. You wrote: “You have an idea of the type of person likely to be referred to your site, an play directly on their fears and concerns about the world in which we live without giving any substance to your claims – shameful.” I substantiate all of my claims and go into great detail, the main basis and bottom line claim being – the Mormon Church attempts to pass itself off as Christian when that is impossible, it can’t be Christian. It attempts to say that this “restored” church is the ONLY true Christian church. This is a lie. This is evil and demonic. Plain and simple. You said: “What evidence do you have that Joseph used a stone to “bilk (sic) many of his own townspeople out of their money claiming he could 'see' treasure underground with this 'peep' stone” – you simply want the reader to have a totally negative view of Joseph.” Well, this happens to be historical fact. Smith was arrested and tried in 1826 in Bainbridge, New York for using peep stone in a malicious manner. Also check out the account in Fraiser’s Magazine in 1873 which was the first publication to publish this information. I'm originally from New York, I grew up in upstate New York. This Mormon stuff was news to us. FYI “State of New York v. Joseph Smith Warrant issued upon written complaint upon oath of Peter G. Bridgeman, who informed that one Joseph Smith of Bainbridge was a disorderly person and an imposter…prisoner…said…[for a ] small part of time [he had] been employed by said Stowel on his farm, going to school. That he had a certain stone which he had occasionally looked at to determine where hidden treasures in the bowels of the earth were; that he professed to tell in this manner where gold mines were a distance under ground, and had looked for Mr. Stowel several times, and informed him where he could find these treasures…that at Palmyra he pretended to tell by looking at this stone where coined money was buried in Pennsylvania, while at Palmyra had frequently ascertained in that way where lost property was of various kinds…” The account goes on to describe many such peep stone searches Smith did, apparently bilking his friends and neighbors out of money for his peep stone treasure hunting – and was found guilty. It also added that when he did this peep stone looking, he’d put the stone in a hat to make his so-called determinations. This is exactly what Smith did to supposedly “translate” the plates that turned into the Book of Mormon. You said: ”How after what you have said in opening your site, can you claim the purpose of the site is to point out the teachings of the Church, when you have not bothered so far.” Again, I just wonder what site you were on. To answer this charge and hopefully put it to rest, among other explanations (I discussed baptism for the dead at great length, “holy garment” that LDS were, the Mormon Temple ceremony) I produced a chart which describes the LDS beliefs about the Bible, God, Jesus Christ, heaven etc. and I then compare those beliefs side by side with what Christians believe. I don’t know why you would believe I didn’t point out the teachings of the LDS Church because I did, numerous times. You said: “You do not claim on your opening page to have been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints – yet claim to know of it – again would it not be more honest to state that the information you reproduce is predominantly from those who have left the Church through their dissatisfaction – not through the Church being wrong?” Actually, I own three copies of the BOM and one of those copies has all of the “sacred books” of if the LDS Church including: Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Abraham. I also own countless LDS teaching materials, Sunday school teachings, and countless other books and documents that are neutral about the LDS Church. That’s where I get my information, along with what I’ve received from former LDS. You said: The link to “Baptism of the Dead” to which I refer above leads to another page on your site correctly using the word “for”– therefore YOUR error. Aren’t you getting JUST a little picky here? You DO baptize the dead! What is the difference if we use FOR or not? LDS baptize the dead – you do this by standing in for the dead person you choose the name of during one of your “Temple Works” ceremonies. What I said is NOT incorrect. You’ve really got to be kidding here. Move on to something else. This would hardly qualify as misleading or “lying.” When the link is followed, ALL is fully explained in a factual and truthful manner. You said: 1 Corinthians 15:29 – Zero basis huh? – in reality zero basis for your claims. It is interesting at how you feel you have the right to simply discard this verse and its meaning because it does not fit in with what you think is true. No, I never said I discarded that verse, nor did I imply it. But you are discarding the original point about this discussion. Please go back to the very lengthy position I took and read it carefully and then address it. Don’t throw some straw man out there that does not address one single point I made. Take on the challenge – I will summarize: There are over 99 mentions of baptism in the Bible – the word is used over and over at least 99 times. Even given the LDS notion that parts of the Bible are missing etc., why, when even Jesus even uses this word and describes his own baptism didn’t anyone mention the LDS practice of baptizing for the dead? Why, in all of those times did no one mention the importance of the LDS ritual nor detail even any part of baptizing for the dead? Instead, LDS use one scripture that does mention baptizing for the dead – and it has been very clearly pointed out by Christian scholars that Paul is referring to THEM – THOSE people who do it, not Christians who do it, others who do it, in that verse. However, I still pose the challenge that you refuse to answer: If this baptizing for the dead is so very vital and important, why in all of those 99 + times that baptism IS mentioned did NO ONE tell of the importance of doing this for the dead? Why did no one ever mention that this must be done the way LDS do it now in the Temple Ceremony? Why wasn’t one single shred of this exclusive LDS ritual described in any way shape or form by anyone no less as being something important all those times baptism was mentioned? Please do not dodge the question. You said: “As I pointed out above, your version of Christianity is the watered down one, allowing no way of understanding or accepting this verse.” No actually quite the contrary, my version of Christianity is the Orthodox Historical one based on the Bible and the One True Living God. You said: “You in NO WAY prove that this practice is neither Biblical nor non-Christian – and if you expect any sane person to rely on the Tanners – well enough said about those two, totally unreliable. “ Actually, I believe I did. Nowhere in history – and I have a number of books regarding the origins of Christianity, has baptism for the dead been practiced by the Orthodox Historical Christian Church. Nor can we find Jews doing it ever. Nor can we find this Temple Ceremony for baptizing the dead in the Bible anywhere. Not one portion of it. It is not Biblical nor is it or has it ever been a Christian practice. I actually quoted scripture for you in the previous posting that proved: 1) it is not a commandment as LDS leaders have claimed 2) and we are not to do endless genealogies. You said: “’Few details’ intimates that he was not told something, but fails to say what – he says he was ‘deep’ into studying the Church before hearing that we believe in three individual members of the Godhead, sorry but I have to ask where he was during the first 3 years, and during his missionary discussions – obviously paying no attention at all, as this would have been clear to him from the off – I’ve never been taught of Masonic chants in my 24 years in the Church! – Adam-God theory- this item was clearly not written by someone who was active in the Church as the article claims and is clearly a piece of fiction – which I presume you have written – I don’t say that because I do not LIKE what is said, but because it is false in what it says. – because of this I do not consider the other ‘letters’ on the page to be reliable.” Well, you may not find them reliable, but I posted only a sampling of the letters I receive and I believe the one I posted to be most reliable because I’ve heard that same story many times before from many different former LDS. You do not find it reliable because you wish it to be so. You said: Your ‘Mormonism compared to Christianity’ page is hilarious – How on earth can you claim that the Bible rejects new revelation – where?” Well, the answer to that is actually two-fold, but we know that the Bible tells us if ANY revelation or if any prophet speaks a revelation, it must be proved by the Bible. If it contradicts the Bible, it is not revelation. LDS so-called “prophets” have rarely gotten it correct. The second part of that answer is to point you to the book of Hebrews. When something is FULFILLED, there is not longer a need for it: Hebrews 1:1-3 ”God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets , hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by whom he made the worlds…”etc. When we read through Hebrews, we see that just as the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ fulfilled the OT laws, Jesus Christ fulfilled the need for prophets, and High Priests etc. Now – can someone have a word of prophecy? Cor. Chapter 12 tells us yes. But we do not NEED prophets any longer – Jesus Christ fulfilled that need. You said: “We are monotheistic, you obviously do not understand LDS doctrine.” So then you say that you do not believe you must marry a Mormon spouse, partake in the LDS Temple “sealing” ceremony, live your lives as a good Mormon couple, and you WON’T rule over your own planet earth as god and goddess? That there aren’t billions and billions of LDS gods and goddesses ruling over their own planet earths right now? That the Father Elohim isn’t one god, Jesus is Jehovah ANOTHER god, that Lucifer ANOTHER god isn’t his brother? And that the Holy Spirit isn’t another god? Or are you just telling me you don’t believe in this LDS doctrine. You do not believe there was a “council of gods” who came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people in it? Or that: ”In the beginning…the Gods organized and formed the heavens and the earth…and the gods called the light Day…and the Gods also said: let there be an expanse…and the gods took counsel among themselves and said: let us go down and form man in our image…” Joseph Smith The Pearl of Great Price. Are you calling J. Smith a liar? “How many Gods there are I do not know, but there never was a time when there were not Gods.” Brigham Young Is he a liar too? I will state again – Mormonism is polytheistic, Christianity is monotheistic. Mormonism can’t be Christian. You said: “Again, we do believe in a virgin Birth – again you are wrong.” First of all, I am assuming you are referring to John Ankerberg’s chart – I didn’t make that statement, I copied the chart with permission. Secondly – Then you must also deny (regarding the virgin birth) that there was no physical sex act between the LDS god Elohim and Mary? If that is your belief, than it must also be your belief that there was no virgin birth. Could it be that you are ignorant of your own church teachings? “Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man and that Man was God!” Doctrines of Salvation – Tenth Mormon President and Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith. ”Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” Bruce McConkie It can’t be both ways. You said: “Again, we believe in salvation by grace AFTER all that we CAN do, we can’t earn it, a sloppy ignorance of LDS doctrine – how can you claim we deny the Atonement – this is false.” “We are not saved by grace alone.” Boyd K. Packer, acting president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles , BYU address, Feb. 1, 1998 You said: “Your description of LDS view of death is nonsense because of its lack of detail, and failure to define what you mean. In reality you comparisons are a ridiculous fantasy either fed to you, or produced by you through laziness and failure to discover true LDS teachings.” Since you yourself here did not go into detail, I assume you mean the god progression that LDS strive for? Then you deny that LDS strive to attain godhood so that they can one day rule over their own planet earth with their god spouse? Then you deny that there are different levels of Mormon heaven? Again, if you wish to discredit something, be more specific. Othewise, don’t mention it as it is you who are not backing up your claims. You said: ”(sorry, the weird numbering has been produced by my pasting from Word, and I can get rid of it!)” No problem, happens to the best of us. You said: “Hey, If it's not Christian to call someone a liar when they are telling blatant falsehoods - what would a Christian call 'em?” I don’t know – but let’s just say that I don’t think it’s what Jesus would do. You said: “I don't know what it is like to be caught up in a group like TWI - but your experience does not give you the right to make false claims about things of which you clearly have very little knowledge.” Actually, it’s a similar experience to what being caught in Mormonism must be like, so former LDS have told me. And I’m sorry you feel I have little knowledge of Mormonism. However, regardless of your perception of what I do or do not know regarding the organization of Mormonism, as a Christian, I have every right – in fact – as stated in previous posts, I am commanded – to tell the truth about the gospel and contend for the faith. I am to also defend the truth of the gospel against evil misleading organizations. The Bible tells us so. “In Christ alone I place my trust…”   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 270 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 4:37 am:        CJV: Sorry, but again you show your ignorance of the Church: Where are the quotes saying we are the ONLY Christians? - what you post relies on your interpretation and YOUR desire that we believe this, when we do not. Again, as far as the doctrine goes we attempt in no way to ADD anything to the Bible, the Book of Mormon is a Historical Account of Sprirual events as you would know if you had read it, and much of it is accounts that predate the Christian era! - in fact the words of Jewish Prophets fortelling the coming of Christ - that predates any of your "modern" Christianity. you believe in a diluted and distilled version of the truth. Not what was taught or believed by early Chritians. My question was obvious WHAT did your phrase mean. buit again your reply is vague with no evidence to support it - so far as I know you are making this up, or just repeating what you've read. Where is the proof the Church has never considered itself Christian?. I don't mean the soundbites you like to use - proof, doctrine that I personally should being LDS, believe that you are not a Christian! Don't be rediculous, there can only be ONE version of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, unless you believe you have the power and authority to change it according to your desires. OF COURSE there can only be ONE true church, as even yours will differ from another in some way shape or form that does nt agree with the way the other views the Gospel. So following your illogocal logic ALL churches are demonic apart form the true one - errr, I reckon that follows on with your defining Christians out of Christianity tactic. You DO NOT substantiate ALL of your claims, in fact you attempt to substantiate a very few. Interesting you say tried and arrested NOT convicted - does not the phrase innocent until proven guilty apply when painting false pictures of Mormons? If you believe every accusation made against anyone, have you never had a friend or member of your family falsely accused of anything? - this is speculation presented as fact. The point I made was at that prior to your claiming the pupose of the site, you had made several false and unsubstantiated claims - not a good start. your comparison was a joke - again showing a serious lack in your understanding of the LDS doctrinal beliefs - no you did not show how the church was demonic or whatever - you simply produced, as I referred to it before RUBBISH mixed in with a few facts. We do NOT baptise the dead at all, in fact we are baptised FOR them, and they have choice to accept it or reject it. YOU claimed it was a link to another site, not me. Orthodox Historical - i.e. someone, far more recent than 2,000 sat down and decided what a chritian ought to believe, and you are happy with it - OK, that your choice. And you find letters that support your belief, because you want to. Where does the bible say what you claim about revelation? (not the misread quote from Revelations please). You are using over simplified and extremely watered down selected verses that do not represent the Bibles teachings as regards revelations. Monotheism as I understand it refers t the God we worship, ONE God. you are confusing doctrines in an effort to bolster a false claim. What? - you claim the chart to be your evidence then pass the buck to someone else - what a joke! You use of a double negative regarding by belief in a virgin birth makes your statement confusing, as whatever I say it can be read as you want to. Exactly what do you claim I believe? Your quote form Packer supports what I said. No, I need not provide detail of what i BELIEVE IN THIS INSTANCE. you ARE CLAIMING ON YOUR PAGE TO PRODUCE FACTS - YOU DO NOT, THEREFORE IT IS INHERANT UPON YOU TO SUBSTANTIATE WAHT YOU SAY. What, lie or call you a liar? MUST - so in reality you have no idea what it is like to be a Mormon and SUPPOSE it must be awful because you went through an awful experience with a group not like the LDS church - well thats fair comparison and a good reason to produce a site about something you know litle of and clearly do not understand - you do not defend the truth on your site you produce and perpetuate many lies and falsehoods, and if you really are Christian ought to pull it off the internet! Though I am sure you believe you are being honest and sincere, you site is wrong in so many ways, for you to leave it in it's present state would show otherwise.   egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.221.155 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 8:16 am:        Joesdad, How do you define monothesism? This is not an attack, but an attempt to understand your position. EGK   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 272 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 9:05 am:        egk: Of course, we worship ONE God, i.e. one eternal Father, the same one we all agree is the father of Christ, the one He said we should pray to. Unlike, say the Romans or Greeks who were Polytheistic and had gods for water, the harvest etc. Hopefully not too simplistic.   egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:18 am:        Joesdad, Again, this is just for clarification for me. My understanding of SoloPilot's position was that Jesus was God and that the Holy Spirit was God also. Or are they less Gods? Also, as for the doctrine of progression, does not the Father become more "godlike?" Do not Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and all those faithful to the Gospel "evolve" so that they become more godlike?   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 813 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.86 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:55 am:        cjv, don't pay attention to joesdad. He "goes by the beat of a different drummer". I would not consider him one who has any 'authority' on the subject of mormonism. One time his argument is 'I am speaking for myself', the next 'you don't know what WE believe' or 'the church' believes. He won't tell why he was excommunicated, which has to be a very serious offense in the church's eyes, so we have no way of knowing whether he was/is a liar, cheat, or worse. His feeble attempts to protect his church have not improved. "The bigger they are (his 6'6" and 245#), the harder they fall."   solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 511 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:06 am:        CJV: You claim to be "called" to "defend the true faith." Please provide the proof that your particular brand of Christianity is the TRUE faith. For that matter, please tell us which of the over-1000 separate versions of "true" Christianity you follow, and why do you follow that one instead of the others? Please provide the Bible verse which states that we need no more prophets, and that we no longer have to follow the Ten Commandments. These are the doctrines of men, not of Christ. "Man unquestionably has impressive powers... But after all our obedience and good works, we cannot be saved from the effects of our sins without the grace extended by the atonement of Jesus Christ... Man cannot earn his own salvation." --Dallin H. Oaks Ensign (Magazine), November 1988 It is amusing to see self-proclaimed "true" Christians claiming that it's possible to be Christian without doing what Christ asks of us. EGK: God the Father and Jesus are separate beings, who are one in purpose (as repeatedly explained by Jesus in the New Testament). I've explained eternal progression several times on FACTNet. God is not static, he is always becoming more -- but the difference, to us, is not discernable, any more than you can see the growth of a pine tree on a mountaintop when you are in the valley a mile below. That progress doesn't make him more godlike, any more than growth makes a pine more treelike.   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 273 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:20 am:        GC: You are a laugh a minute.   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 12:56 pm:        Gee Solopilot, which LDS group do YOU belong to? Last count there were at least 52 and that doesn’t even begin to include all the polygamist groups lurking out there. I'll be back -- busy today -- I like to do these things in the evening when I have more time. "In Christ alone I place my trust..."   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 1:19 pm:        Dear Godchild, Don't worry, I have veeeerrrry thick skin. I've been doing this for over ten years, I usually don't let it get to me. What is so beautiful, is how this works. It's right here on the boards for those who seek to see. That's the beauty of it. True colors show and it's very revealing when you see the underbelly of the beast. I will never forget going into an LDS chat room. My friend was with me -- and she dove right in. Naturally, she was approached by all LDS with sweetness and light and loveliness. I just watched and waited on the Lord. Then someone said something about Joseph Smith and I wrote a simple sentence, "Joseph Smith was a false prophet." The room practically burst with vile and name calling and the personal attacks. No cursing, but if there was a name I could be called that wasn't a curse, I was called it. I remained calm and quoted scripture etc. to support what I was saying. I also quoted LDS doctrine, all to no avail at penetrating the organized effort to spit me out of the room. Then someone privately contacted me in the midst of all of this and told me they had been coming to that room for a few weeks. They thought they might be interested in joining the LDS church and until that moment, everyone in that room had "honey pouring from their lips" whenever they addressed him. He was in total and complete shock at the turn everything took. We had quite a long discussion, I gave him some resources and links to check out what the LDS Church was really like and I heard back from him a few months later. He was very grateful he had been in that room that night at that precise time to see the reality of what was behind the facade of Mormonism and how this large group truly acted. He became a member of a wonderful, mainstream legitimate Christian Church and thanked me over and over for helping him avoid Mormonism. I believe he turned his heart over to Christ as a result of his affiliation with that church he joined. I say all of this not to boast in any way -- because if I do anything right, I do it through the Lord Jesus Christ because He deserves all glory, honor and praise. I am nothing without Him. I do it to point out what others, who may just be cruising around, looking, searching, will see. It's here, it's obvious, and it's very telling about the LDS Church. So that's why I actually welcome the attacks. It's very revealing. Amen. May the truth of the gospel withstand all efforts by the powers of darkness to squelch it on these boards! Amen and Praise Jesus Christ our Lord! I do, however, thank you for the heads up and your concern. It’s always a blessing to know someone is in your corner! God bless you and thanks again! "In Christ ALONE..."   solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 514 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 2:43 pm:        CJV: I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, I find it interesting that you are PROUD of going to an LDS chat room so that you could spread condemnation. What is it about you self-appointed "true" Christians which makes you want to spoil the day of anyone who isn't a member of your particular cult? Then you feel smug and superior that you got the reaction which you were seeking. And you say that you've been doing this for 10 years. Satan is so proud of you. Now, please answer the questions which you tried to dodge.   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 275 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 2:49 pm:        CJV: I wonder if you understand that in fact what you do is wrong? Christ is definitely not proud of your kind, creators of contention and spreaders of misery (that is your misery to others)   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 276 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 3:19 pm:        egk: Hopefully to clarify things. We believe and teach of one God as I mentioned above, the creator of all. Christ is a member of the Godhead, and under the auspices of His Father, and our Father, God, He created all things, except for man and his spirit. Our spirits have a finite ability to progress, however once having existed in a body that spirit and body have an infinite ability to progress (together). That is why Satan and his minions want us to fall and fail, out of jealousy, as they will never be able to progress as we can because they will never feel of a body around their spirits. However much we progress we will and can never suprpass our Heavenly Father, however much we may become more like Him and reflect in ourselves his glory and perfection. I can never become my Dad, but I can become like him in some ways such as marrying and raising my own children, even have a successful carrer, but I will never replace him, he will always be my Dad. The difference though is that I can become more like my earthly father than I can become like my Heavely father, in fact I could have more children, have a more successful career etc than my Dad, but not my Heavely Father. As for God becoming more Godlike, Solopilot says it clear enough. cjv: your attitude is much like the person who was bullied, and feels that they are justified in bullying others in reaction to their own bad experience. They are not a victim, but a bully that has not learnt from their own experience. I am wondering, why LDS in particular?   egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 119 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 3:23 pm:        Joesdad and SoloPilot, Since the Father is God and is a separate being from Jesus and since there is only one God, then do Mormons believe that Jesus is not God? Do the Mormons believe that the Son is God and that Jesus is the God the Son? Again, This is for my clarificatiion, not to attack you or the LDS. EGK   steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 3:41 pm:        Cjv , Jude 3 Always & forever.   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 4:56 pm:        Joesdad, in regard to your posting to me: Joe, Joe, Joe, you are all over the map here. OK, we’ve totally established that you hate my website – that’s fine I get that. However, can you please get back to a discussion here? Do you realize you are not sounding rational? Someone privately contacted me after reading your postings incredulous, and said something to the effect, “They are quoted their OWN doctrine and they will ignore it entirely.” You made challenges, I answered I believe every single one with LDS doctrine and quotes from so-called “prophets” and yet you still would insist that I’m lying. Why in the world are you so angry? I didn’t say a thing about you or your mother or your favorite pet. I am talking about an organization, of which you apparently aren’t even a part of anymore. You just take my posts, pick and choose the parts you wish to talk about, sprinkle it with YOU LIED YOU LIED or THAT’S RUBBISH THAT’S RUBBISH but won’t address the central issues nor the key questions I’ve asked. You accused me of lying about the Mormon Church teaching about Adam being God. I showed you in two different postings I believe, numerous quotes from LDS doctrine and papers – that this is the teachings of your church and had been for many years. I gave you quotes directly from Brigham Young for example, a hugely important and very celebrated man by LDS. I then asked you, if this is NO LONGER the teaching as you so proclaimed, then was Brigham Young lying? Was he insane? Or are you prepared to call him a false prophet? Now why won’t you answer that question? You, remember, are the one who brought this up, not me. Now you won’t give me the courtesy of an answer. And maybe ??? an apology because I didn't lie. Another basic point I’ve tried to make with you but you’ve just gone off on this wild ride – YOU LIE YOU LIE and won’t answer so let’s address that next: One of those “lies” you claim on my web site was that Mormonism is polytheistic. I then asked you numerous questions regarding this claim – and it was based on all those Mormons who “progressed” into gods and I also asked you about the three god god-head. You didn’t answer. You just repeated that I lied again. Then your explanation when someone else asked was that Mormons WORSHIP only one god, god the father. First of all, I think we’ve been able to establish that 1) Mormons believe they themselves can progress (if they are good Mormons and pay a tithe and participate in a Mormon Temple Ceremony that seals them in marriage to another Mormon) into gods. I think it also is established that these gods and goddesses are then, after they die and leave this earth – going to rule over their own planet earth. The goddess will then be perpetually and eternally pregnant, supplying “spirit babies” and that’s why all good Mormons must have numerous children so as to have a place to “house” these spirits born of the goddess of that earth (note: I have added on information about this god/goddess thing in this posting, that has not been previously established by me). 2) There are three gods in the god-head– yes? Your claim to support your insistence that the LDS Church is monotheistic however, is that LDS only WORSHIP one God, and that would be Father God or otherwise known as Elohim. Therefore the LDS organization is monotheistic. Well, therein lies the problem. According to the very definition of the word “polytheistic” Mormonism most definitely is a polytheistic organization: pol•y•the•ism n. The worship of or belief in more than one god. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2004, 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. The key here would be the second half of that phrase: BELIEF in more than one god. Christians believe, worship, acknowledge throughout history, ONE God and ONLY one God. So once again, it would be established firmly now, clearly now – that Orthodox, Historical Christianity has always been, and is today, monotheistic. This is historical fact and is indisputable. Since Mormonism can not “restore” something that never existed – a polytheistic Christian Church --it therefore couldn’t be Christian. Let’s get on to these basic points of discussion before we get on to anything else, shall we? Don’t be angry, don’t get upset, just consider these things. Remember – been there done that – if someone had said anything at all negative about The Way International (TWI), the cult I was in – I went ballistic. But I’ve since learned that an organization can’t save a single soul. No organization can. Jesus Christ is in the business of saving souls – that’s the key here Joe. And unfortunately, you can’t find the Jesus who saves souls through the teachings of Mormonism. Please consider that. ”In Christ alone…”   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 4:58 pm:        Steel! Danged if I didn't have to go look up that scripture. Sure wish I could memorize better! But as to Jude 3 AMEN, AMEN AND AMEN!   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 5:20 pm:        Ooops, I slipped up, you're right joesdad -- I forgot to add that in regards to Joseph Smith's arrest and trial (the founder of Mormonism) -- the one where he used a peep stone to bilk his neighbors out of money with his so called "treasure hunting?" He was found guilty. So that would be tried and convicted. Also remember, this is the same peep stone he used, much in the same manner -- putting it in his hat -- to "translate" the supposed plates that produced the Book of Mormon. "In Christ alone..."   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 5:43 pm:        Well Solo, since you asked so nicely… You said: You claim to be "called" to "defend the true faith." No I actually said I and all Christians are called to do so – I’m in a large group. In fact, that’s exactly what the Bible tells us and I’ve posted just some of the scripture that tells us so. You said: Please provide the proof that your particular brand of Christianity is the TRUE faith. Actually, Christians, all Christians are called to contend for the faith. There is no particular “brand.” You said: For that matter, please tell us which of the over-1000 separate versions of "true" Christianity you follow, and why do you follow that one instead of the others? This is a very oft used argument LDS like to parrot. Here’s the problem with that argument though: 1) There are at least – last count – 52 organizations of the LDS church – as I’ve already pointed out, and that doesn’t count the secret polygamist groups. 2) I’ll give you an example why that’s a non-argument. I can go into any Christian bookstore either in the U.S. or around the world. And I’ve been to a bunch of them as a 25+ year Army wife. I may find a denomination that tells me I can’t dance, or can’t drink alcohol, while a denomination might say both of those things are OK. But you know what aaaaaaaallllllll those organizations do believe in complete harmony? The very basis for the establishment of the Christian Church (and remember, I’m including Catholics here so we’re talking billions of people) and that is: There is only one God. In the beginning was God’s Word and that Word was with God and GOD IS THE WORD. And the Word became flesh and came to earth to live, and die for our sins, and was raised in glory to sit at the right hand of the Father. Three persons, only ONE God. So maybe there will be a church that has chamber music during the service, but I like that good old gospel music, so I’m going to go there. But even if I went to that church that has gospel music, I’m still LIKEMINDED with my other brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus across the street on the thing that matters most. Believing in my heart of hearts in the one true God who can save my soul. Oh, BTW, I’m non-denominational. You said: Please provide the Bible verse which states that we need no more prophets I already did, read the posts in this thread that I wrote. You said: , and that we no longer have to follow the Ten Commandments. These are the doctrines of men, not of Christ. I already did that as well and it wasn’t so much we shouldn’t follow the Ten Commandments, you misunderstand the scripture I quoted. Jesus told us that in the commandments (that I already posted in this thread) he was speaking of, all the ten are inclusive. That is why we no longer, for example, have to follow the OT laws. You said: "Man unquestionably has impressive powers... But after all our obedience and good works, we cannot be saved from the effects of our sins without the grace extended by the atonement of Jesus Christ... Man cannot earn his own salvation." --Dallin H. Oaks Ensign (Magazine), November 1988 Fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins. Book of Mormon, Moroni 8:25 Works. Except ye shall keep my commandments…Ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 12:20. \ Works. And let us also remember that unless a Mormon pays their tithe faithfully, they can not partake of the Temple Ceremony. This then follows with, if a Mormon does not participate in the Temple Ceremony, they can not go to Mormon heaven. Works. If a Mormon does not marry another Mormon, they can not go to heaven. Works. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me. John 14:6   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 821 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.164 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 6:49 pm:        If you haven't already, read solopilot's response today on the 'why mormons and jw's... Solopilot says God has seven spirits? Yup, seven!!!   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 822 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.164 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 7:01 pm:        Shoot! I gave them five minutes and not one of them said 'prove he doesn't'. So now mormons believe spirits have spirits. Wonder when they revelation was given to these poor souls, whoops, I mean people. Don't want to confuse them anymore than they already are. Solo, you really do need to call keith and tell him you need help here. Unless, of course, he really is nobody special.   solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 518 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 8:04 pm:        EGK: Jesus is the SON of God. He works in his Father's business. We pray to God, in the name of Jesus, the Intercessor. CJV: The "Adam-God Doctrine" never WAS official Church doctrine. It was mentioned in the Journal of Discourses, which is not and never was considered scripture in the Church. There is "no particular brand" of Christianity? So, the Catholics are the same as the Baptists, who are the same as Prebyterians, who are the same as the Methodists . . ? Yeah, right. I can show you Baptist cults which teach that other Baptist cults aren't truly Christian. Even the Roman Catholic Church (the largest Christian denomination) changes its doctrines from one place to another. And let's not talk about the Episcopalians, who are preparing for a schism over homosexuality. I'm not parrotting anything, I'm asking you a question and AGAIN YOU DODGE IT. "Non-denominational" means "I don't believe in any church." The Ten Commandments is an Old Testament law. Make up your mind -- either we have to obey them or we don't. By your interpretation, we are "saved" even when we don't obey the commandments of the Savior. Absurd. You (intentionally?) misrepresent the doctrines on Heaven.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 825 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.56 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 8:26 pm:        Non-denominational does not mean "I don't believe in any church". Non-denominational means we have not chosen to place our name on a membership roll in order to serve Christ. As believers in him we are his church, we are the body of Christ. Nowhere does it say "place your name on a membership roll or be baptized 'into' a church", as a requirement of being a member. If christians wish to do so, that is their right. It doesn't make them more or less a christian. God is not a respector of persons.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 827 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.56 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 9:20 pm:        I would like to hear a mormon explain what the Journal of Discourses was written for and by whom. (If they can) Also, since it is not considered scripture by the mormon church, does that mean mormons can ignore it?   egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 121 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.221.155 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:09 pm:        Solopilot, What do you mean by this statement? Even the Roman Catholic Church (the largest Christian denomination) changes its doctrines from one place to another. EGK   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 829 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.84 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:40 pm:        How interesting that the mormons here think so little of the Journal of Discourses. Let me share a little of what leaders in the mormon church think of this book: "The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded saint will certainly welcome with joy every Number as it comes forth from the press as an additional reflector of "the light that shines from Zion's Hill." (Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8) This statement by george Q. Cannon, Apostle of God, sets the scene for what has become regarded by true Gospel scholars as one of the most important sources of doctrinal teaching in this the dispensation of the fullness of times. President Joseph F. Smith, counsellor to Brigham Young and later Prophet of God, made this statement with references to the Journal of Discourses: "We feel confident that the important instructions on principle and doctrine therein contained, relative to the building of Temples, the salvation of the dead, the introduction of the Order of Enoch, and the general progress and development of the great Latter-day Work, will prove as interesting, gratifying and beneficial to the Saints and to posterity, as those that have been previously published through this medium. We regret that the circulation of the Journal of Discourses is so limited. Its importance would warrant a thousand-fold greater extension of this work. We anticipate a time, not distant in the future, when a copy of the present volume will be more precious than gold. It is even now almost impossible to obtain a complete series. Copies should therefore be carefully preserved by all subscribers. (Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 18) What are these Volumes that have been so hoghly recommended? Who compiled them? If they are so important why are they not well known and used regularly by the general membership of the Church today? Are copies available? The Journal of Discourses are a set of 26 volumes, adding up to nearly 10,000 pages of talks that were extemporaneously given. The early Saints felt that it was important that speakers should follow closely the admonition in the scriptures; "Neither take ye thought what ye shall say; but treasure up in your minds continually the words of life, and it shall be given you in the very hour that portion that shall be meted unto every man." (D&C 84:85) The preface to the index, produced and compiled at Brigham Young University in 1959, the statement was made: "In most cases it appears that the speakeers depended almost entirely upon inspiration from the Holy Ghose, and the subjects discussed were intended for the greatest benefit of the Saints." (Paragraph 2, Preface, Journal of Discourses index) It seems very apparent that members (at least the ones here) are not being taught everything there is to their religion. gc to be cont.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 830 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.84 Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:44 pm:        I found this information AFTER I posted at 9:20 pm.. Why are so many questions being ignored. Perhaps it will help mormons and those investigating mormonism should get a lesson on the Journal of Discourses, don't you agree? The question is, are the mormons saying these letters are not important, because they don't want people to know how important they are? Or, as some think, does the church not want the members to read the Journals?   solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 519 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 12:56 am:        EGK: RCC doctrine is not the same everywhere. There are basic doctrines which are universal, but then there are "local" doctrines and practices which are determined by authorities in those areas (archbishops? Cardinals? I don't know the ranking there).   egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.221.155 Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 1:14 am:        SoloPilot, You are correct to a point. In the RCC there are dogmas which are binding on the entire Church. Then there are doctrines. Doctrines are either interpretations of Scriptures that have never been dogmatically defined (so there may be several interpretations that are considered valid.) Or they may be interpretations or implementations of aspects of dogmas that have not been defined. I'm assuming there are similar things in the LDS. EGK   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 836 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.218 Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:46 am:        The mormon church demands strict adherence to its principles and doctrines everywhere. If sp is saying, for example, Salt Lake City and Anchorage are allowed to follow their own doctrines exclusive of the other in any instance is a lie. A very bold lie in fact. If it is not a lie, he needs to show proof. I think it is time to send slc some of what mormons here are calling beliefs, doctrines and principles of the mormon church. They would be very interested in seeing how members cause more confusion in an already overly confusing organization, and in fact, push lies on the public.   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 9:36 am:        Amen godhchild, you are telling the absolute truth. I've noticed you're quite a prolific author on these boards and deliver valuable information. Your quotes about the JofD are also absolutely correct. 1) It is a key and essential tool in LDS teachings and 2) regarding solo's claim that the Adam-is-god teaching only was "meantioned" in the JofD is false as well. I've given proof above (in an earlier post on this thread) of a quote that this was not only a teaching that was embraced by the LDS Church, but it was apostasy NOT to embrace it as a Church teaching. For awhile, the LDS Church demanded their members believe that Adam was god the father. That's a fact quite indisputible. If only the LDS who frequent here would be as concerned about the truth of the gospel as they are with defending a man-made organization. We can only pray that the scales would fall from their eyes. Fight the good fight godchild! May God be with you! God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way the truth and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me. John 14:6   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 838 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.254 Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 11:30 am:        cjv, I appreciate your kind words. I am not familiar with the cult you were a member of but we share the same sense of betrayal when we realize the foundations for our beliefs are based on lies perpetrated by men who allow satan to not only take control of their every decision, but also drag innocent people with them. What started as a curiousity has now become a mission for me. When I got my computer in December, I asked the Lord to allow me to use it to glorify him. I was actually looking for a christian site where I could share with like minded people who could help me learn more about scripture (the HOLY BIBLE). I saw the mormon thread and when I saw what bilk the mormons were trying to pass off as truth brought up memories of the time I was a member. I loved the church and spent hours in discussion with those who didn't agree with its doctrines. Some of my relatives and friends were members of the Russian Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, and Baptist denominations. Now I wish I could go back and apologise for my smug attitude that I see shared by the mormons here. It was a false air of superiority. Although I had learned the basics of christianity thanks to my grandmother and a kind christian man who took us to sunday school (baptist churches), my desire to please a mother who was looking for a church, instead of looking for God, led me to join at the age of 13. I now know it was a part of God's plan for my life. I wasn't looking for a mormon husband but my second one was. I felt as he did that it wasn't so important to live for the Lord as just being a member of this cult guaranteed an afterlife for us, though we were aware we probably wouldn't be in the celestial kingdom, we would still be in heaven. My great regret is that I didn't see the truth TOTALLY until our children were into their teens and leaving home. Somehow I had the idea in my head that they were receiving more Bible study from the church. I found later they received only what I taught them about the Bible. Thank God I NEVER thought the bom was more or as important as the Holy Bible, which I have loved since I began studying it as a child. It was ingrained in me and nothing the mormon church said could take that away from me or them. That small tie to the Lord led us out of the dark hole of mormonism. When I left the church in 1986, a family friend and high muckety-muck came to see me about it. He laughed at my biblical views of Hell. I told him that day I would rather be in a pit with God than in a kingdom with satan. That thought has never left me. In his mind, there is no hell. I apologise for going on. If it weren't for the wonders I see now daily in God's precious love and my desire to share that with others, I wouldn't spend two seconds on these threads. If I could see after being so blind, the possiblity is there for others to see also. That is my prayer and my hope. God IS doing a work here. I have not always spoken in loving kindness, but deep down that is my intent. May God be with you also, as you continue your work for the Lord.   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 4:12 pm:        Dear godchild, I really was deeply touched by your story. You didn't "go on," I was very interested. I could totally relate. When I was in TWI -- I read the Bible to my children, but TWI also taught anti-Trinitarian doctrine and I did drum that into them I'm very sorry to say. Thanks be to God they were really too young to let it stick. When I told my oldest the truth, she remembered though and called me on the carpet - "I thought you told us Jesus Christ wasn't God?" I had to pray about the spiritual wickedness I had brought into our home (my husband never bought into The Way, he said most of the people just didn't seem 'right' to him). And I had to reteach my children. When I left TWI it nearly killed me. I thought I was in the only organization that had the truth about God and the Bible. I firmly believed all other Christian organizations were corrupt. I thought the Bible had missing parts and was translated improperly. I thought Victor Paul Wierwille (founder) who said he saw God and heard God's voice tell him he was to teach the gospel as it had never been taught before, was the greatest man of God in history. When he said Jesus Christ is not God, I believed him! He spoke to God, he was getting the purest of revelation. Is anything sounding familiar here??? The irony is that -- the foundation of most all Christian cults is eerily similar. One of the things I tell JW's or Mormons or Wayers is -- do you realize that you are like minded with other people who are members of Christian cults, but you're not like-minded with Christians? I never knew that when I was in TWI, I never walked into a Christian bookstore to look at the cult section, otherwise, maybe something would have hit me. That's why these cults have to publish their own materials, otherwise, it just goes in the cult section of any Christian bookstore. The Lord either allowed my trial or caused it, but regardless, when I came out of that cult, after I was delivered from the cult teachings and the brainwashing (just as the Mormon Church brainwashes its members), I believe the Lord revealed to me why. I, like you, was to use my experience to help others. I was to do all I possibly could through Christ Jesus to warn others about the deception of these groups. Groups like Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way etc. It's such a blessing to see others out there -- putting on their battle gear, putting on the full Armour of Christ Jesus, soldiering on! Thanks again for your story, please feel free to e-mail me at any time -- and remember -- I'm reading what you write and cheering for you! "In Christ alone..."   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 854 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.87 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 3:04 am:        I have been reading 'The Pearl of Great Price'. This is the one book I don't remember reading from. So far it is God speaking to Moses about the creation. It is absurd. Cain called himself Master Cain, commanded satan, and slept with his brother's wife. Joseph Smith would have gotten rich writing porn. I'll give you the web site tomorrow in case you don't have it so you can check out this absurd book that js wrote. God created every creature before they came to earth. God breathed life into the animals nostrils. Moses talked to God face to face more than once. Adam and Eve jumped for joy with their children when God threw them out of the Garden of Eden, which has another name in this ridiculous book. Then they had Cain and Abel. Good Lord, people really call this scripture? This is beyond stupidity. It is lunacy!!!   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 855 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.87 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 3:05 am:        Oh, and God created gold, and the gold was good.   steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 125 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 1:15 pm:        Solo, maybe i can help on cjv's post. The old testament was the law written to gods chosen people. The law was a teacher of sinful nature,it told us of the things that were of a sinful nature. The gentiles did not live under this law, neither the egyptians, africans,etc. Although by God's nature we all , even gentile had the law written in our hearts, When the messiah came , he came because the Jews & the gentiles could not fullfill the law of the old testamet. God new we could never be perfect, therefor GOD came in the flesh to be perfected for us, He paid the price of the old testament with his blood on the Cross. He gave us New Commandments , because the old had been fulfilled. He said to LOVE GOD & TO LOVE YOUR neighbor. , With the greatest of these Loving your neighbor. When he Died , there would be no more temples made with hands,animal sacrifice, priesthood, because all these things were fulfilled in him. You take away his sacrifice when you go back to the old testament practices. Although the law was fulfilled by Christ,the commandments will always be there to show us of our sinful nature . Remember if you live one point of the law you are bound by all the law & the sacrifice in null and void to you, & Mormons live out of the old testament, (temples ,priesthood,ordinances, endowments,masonic rituals). It is in Christ alone, Through his sacrifice That we will have eternal life. As for Denominational confusion, In Christianity there is periferal doctrine,& essential doctrine, essential doctrine being the deity of Christ , the GODHEAD,The purpose of the sacrifice etc, Periferal doctrine is doctrine may not deal with salvation , but how the church want to worship, such as no dancing, no makeup,or how the sacrement i passed etc. All Christian churches are in agreement with essential Doctrine even the Catholics, although the catholic have periferal doctrine i don't agree with. It is still by Christ that we come unto the Father.   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 4:06 pm:        godchild, I have a copy of the Pearl -- I read it ages ago, I really should read it again, but it's painful... steelsword -- well done. Much better than I could have written it! Thank you!!!   steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 127 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 4:43 pm:        I think solo ask for scripture as far as the bible being God Breathed. 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is Given by INSPIRATION of God, and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof, for correction,for instruction in righteousness. The word INSPIRATION : in the trasitive & intransitive form: is to breath in. From latin: inspirare, From spirare Which means to breath. So this could read : All scripture is Breathed of God. or all scripture is given by the BREATH of GOD, or All scripyure is breathed into us by GOD.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 861 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.244 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 5:06 pm:        painfully obvious that it is bunk. I agree with cjv, steelhead; well done. This is the way I like to worship the Lord. Learning and praising him.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 862 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.244 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 5:12 pm:        I didn't type fast enough. I was answering the posts previous to the one above.   nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 81 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 9:09 pm:        Steelsworld, Some very good points there well worded also. I would like to say that in using the correct terms as you stated. “In Christianity there is periferal doctrine,& essential doctrine, essential doctrine” How much of the LDS’s essential doctrine do you feel is not inline with mainstream and your view as to the most crucial or that which you feel is the most critical. I would be interested to see you comments on this. Nulla   x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:45 pm:        cjv, excellent job keep it up please! It's amazing how much eveidence you can provide TBM's that provides undeniable proof that their religion is false yet they still seem to believe? One must keep in mind though the LDS are given "special status" by their leaders as being above the rest of the world (us sinners), and they have "special truths"(lies) that you and I cannot have, and if your a male LDS member you also have the the "preisthood power"(witchcraft). Now telling TBM's the truth is a very hard thing for them to accept as they must abbandond their "special status and future godhood" theories. Try to explain to a fish what life is like outside of the water! No matter how you look at it, the Jesus of the bible and the jesus of the Book of Mormon are 2 completely different and separete people or "beings" so only one book can be correct, this leaves the mormons a choice, CHOOSE ONE! Then toss the other, it would be safer on judgment day.   steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.133 Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:55 pm:        Nulla , do we have time? I will say more when there is time. Essential doctrine not in line with mainstream: The GODHEAD/ Deity of Christ Prophet/First Presidency/Q of the 12/The 70 Temples/ AND Ordinances performed in them. PriestHood Only True Authority/& True Church Eternal progression Baptism for the DEAD The Atonement ( a 2 part Play) The Cross The pre=exsistence Curse of Black Skin/ Sitting on the fence/cain Eve's sin a good thing/Fall of Adam Word of wisdom More Later, steel   x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 10:45 am:        Does anyone find it funny that the lie used by satan in the garden of eden "man becoming as god" is the exact same lie tought in mormonism just taken a step further? Does this not say enough?   cjv (cjv) New member Username: cjv Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 12:56 pm:        x11, Thank you for your encouragement, but truly, all the glorly goes to God, I'm a total idiot without Him! If I do good, I do it through Christ Jesus only, not of my own strength! Amen! I can tell you though, regarding your comments that were right on the money -- I absolutely know how an LDS or cult member thinks. I am a former The Way International (TWI) brainwashed follower (they don't like the term member so I avoid using it). The moment anyone would say anything to me that wasn't in sync with TWI teachings (can you see how warped the mind is and how it reacts when it is consumed with demonic teachings? Rather than holding to the standards of the Bible as we should, my initial reaction was to line it up with Way teachings). My eyes would glaze over, I'd become totally prideful and felt intellectually superior to all the rest of the "stupid" so-called Christians, and spout something I had been taught by TWI cult dogma. The "downfall" so to speak, of TWI was that it encouraged study of the Bible -- with conditions of course -- some parts are missing, some parts are terribly mis-translated, some parts addressed to believers only etc.. So because I wanted to be God's most perfect "believer" (as Wayers often refer to each other -- only Wayers were true "believers"), I studied my TAIL off every possible extra moment of every day. It was in these daily studies that I realized Way leadership wasn't coinciding with the things the Bible said. And ironically it was a Jew (I say ironically because TWI is very anti-Jew) radio talk show host -- thank you Jesus for this wise man -- who was the first to show me an error in the founding "teachers" teachings. But did I pack my bags and leave the organization behind even when the proof was staring me in the face? No, it's as you said -- that would mean -- abandoning my special status as an elite, believer in God. We were intellectually superior and "spiritually" superior -- similar to LDS as you described -- therefore we were privy to information that no other inferior and corrupt clueless "other" Christians had! How could I rejoin the rabble??? Impossible! So I conditioned myself to just tuck that glaring knowledge in the back of my mind (we were told Wierwille -- the founder -- received perfect revelation from God and it was totally indisputable. When he spoke, God spoke). Eventually, because I did love to study the Bible, other errors became too obvious to ignore and the behavior of the leadership was totally inappropriate at best, criminal at worst -- and that combination was something I was eventually unable to ignore entirely. So I can "relate" to what the LDS experiences when people point out the garbage that this organization perpetrates on the American public. Always sadly aware that because of the Church's vast resource and boundless amount of money pouring in -- they are the only cult in American history to mainstream itself into our culture! And re: what the Bible says about man becoming god -- the irony is totally lost on LDS -- if I'm not mistaken, they have a pat answer for that one and the answer is as absurd as their belief that they can become gods someday ruling over their own planet. When I tell people a synopsis of what LDS believe, people are completely incredulous. They just won't believe that such a huge organization can have so many members who believe such demonic, absurd doctrine! "In Christ alone..." Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 877 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.59.61 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 12:10 am:        ARTICLES OF AFFIRMATION AND DENIAL Article 1. We affirm that the Holy Scriptures are to be received as the authoritative Word of God. We deny that the Scriptures receive their authority from a church, tradition, or any other human source. Article 11. We affirm that the Scriptures are the supreme written norm by which God binds the conscience, and that the authority of a church is subordinate to that of Scripture. We deny that church creeds, councils, or declarations have authority greater than or equal to the authority of the Bible. Article 111. We affirm that the written Word in it entirety is revelation given by God. We deny that the Bible is merely a witness to revelation, or only becomes revelation in encounter, or depends on the reponses of men for its validity. Article 1v. We affirm that God who made mankind in his image has used language as a means of revelation. We deny that human language is so limited by our creatureleness that it is rendered inadequate as vehicle for divine revelation. We further deny that the corruption of human culture and language through sin has thwarted God's work of inspiration. Article V. We affirm that God's revelation within the Holy Scriptures was progressive. We deny that later revelation, which may fulfill earlier revelation, ever corrects or contradicts it. We further deny that any normative revelation has been given since the completion of the new Testament writings. to be cont. gc Any person is welcome to go to this site to voice their opinion about this statement: www.umi.org/chicago.html   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 878 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.251 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 12:39 am:        After this manner therefore pray ye: our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever. Amen. Matthew 6:9-13   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 279 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 8:59 am:        cjv: What was Joseph punishment on being found "guilty"? You claim that you have corrected ALL incorrect statements made on your site, correct? There are several valid and accurate points that I have mentioned - will you correct your site? I do not hate your site, I am afraid that would be showing far more emotion than your site deserves. There are many like yours, fictional, inaccurate and created with little or no real knowledge of the subject, and as such are ludicrous. It is a real shame, if the LDS church really was as demonic as you say, anyone reading your website would only hear a fantasy created by you rather than any real hard facts upon which to make a judgement. I had an anti-LDS book that claimed to show how to witness to a Mormon Missionary, giving word for word the dialogue to be used. The conversation was to start with the missionary being asked if they believed that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the Elders relying "No", and the questioner then going on to prove that they do - anyone trying that would be made to look and absolute idiot, as would anybody thinking your site was factual and could be relied upon. I read your description of how you would repsond when a member of TWI if your "beliefs" were challenged, and your claim to know that I respond in the same way (or any other LDS) - if that were true, why do you not get word for word identical repsonses from SP and me?, in fact why do we come to this forum as I assume if what you claim is true, LDS Church leaders would be advising us to keep off the internet and definitely NOT to engage in discussions such as those here or telling us we cannot become Gods if we do. You are just wrong, I could not bear to be a member of any group that works the way you claim my Church does - you have no factual evidence and feel you have the right to condemn without bothering to find out anything about us. I don't live in the centre of a city with tens of thousands of Mormons around me, I live in a small town with a congregataion of around 300 - there is only 1 other LDS were I work in a firm of 500 or so no one to keeping check or an eye on me. Your idea of my relationship with my Church is pure fantasy based on your experience with a group in no way related to ours - talk about that if you need to, but please your moaning about LDS when you have chosen to believe any negative comment sent your way rather than properly researching it makle it seem to me that the tactics sused to brainwash you have left a residue, one that allows you to accept any anti-LDS junk you read as fact. As for facts, I am sure you are intelligent enough to know that a fact can be twisted and made to look anyway you want it to with just a litle effort - our politicians do it day in day out - facts mixed with rumour and lies makes what? (Message edited by joesdad on May 03, 2005)   steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 133 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 10:49 am:        JOE, State of New York Vs. Joseph Smith Court Date: March 20,1826 Joseph Smith " The Glass Looker" Found Guilty-Taking Money under false pretence Misdemenor Fine By the Court: $2.68   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 280 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 12:24 pm:        Steelsworld: Cool, is there anyway of getting any further details - Law is my area, so I'm really interested in this - do you have any details of similar "trials" of joseph amongst your collection?   x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 12:33 pm:        joesdad, Facts mixed with rumors and lies make the LDS church what it is today   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 282 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 12:55 pm:        x11: In my opinion, that's what makes sites like cjv's so successful, cos people like you WANT to believe the lies - derrr! - until you see beyond that you will never actually know or understand what the LDS believe or know.   x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 1:14 pm:        And what "facts" exactly is the LDS cult founded upon? What evidence do you bring here that proves the authenticity of your beleifs? It seems even the highest leaders of your cult cant come up with answers for these questions. So far what we have to go off of is: 1. A fictional book (proven by historical evidence) 2. A false prophit (as proven by deut. 18; 20-22) The list is really much much longer than I have time for at the moment, plus this keeps it kinda simple.   x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 1:27 pm:        I was LDS for 31 years thank you. I am very aware of what they/you believe. And truth will always, always void lies. Never have I wanted to belive any lie, in fact facing the truth about LDS teachings was in the hardest thing I ever had to face, so maybe it is you who wants to believe "the lies". I would suggest to you joesdad that you step away from all the mormon dogma and ask to have your eyes opened   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 886 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.206 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 2:49 pm:        The authority of Scripture is a key issue for the Christian church in this and every age. Those who profess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are called to show the reality of their discipleship by humbly adn faithfully obeying God's written Word. To stray from Scripture in faith or conduct is disloyalty to our Master. Recognition of the total truth and trustworthiness of Holy Scripture is essential to a full grasp and adequate confession of its authority. Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy As christians, we do recognise the total truth and trustworthiness of Holy Scripture. gc Why Can't Mormons See the Truth? This article was written by Frank Cannon, a respected mormon who was born into the mormon church. I will copy it in part. But what of the Mormon people? How can such leaders, directing the Church to purposes that have become so cruel, so selfish, so dangerous and so disloyal-how can they maintain their power over followers who are themselves neither criminal nor degraded? That is a question which has given the pause of doubt to many criticisms of the Mormon communism of our day. That is the consideration not only are the Mormon men and women obviously as worthy as any in the United States: there is plainly much of community value in their social life; there is manifestly a great deal of efficiency for human good in their system and in the leadership by which it is directed; and this good is so apparent that it appeals easily to the sympathetic conscience an uninformed mind of the country at large. Let me try, then, to exhibit and to analyze the causes that keep such a virtuous and sturdy people loyally supporting the leadership of men so unworthy of them that if the people were as bad as the ends to which they are being now directed, modern Mormonism would be destroyed by its own evils. In the first palce, the average Mormon chief is sincere in his pretensions and self-justified in hes aims. Usually, he has been born, in the Church, to a family that sees itself set apart, ib holeiness, from the rest of humanity, as the direct heirs of the ancient prophets or even as the lineal descendants of Christ. From his earliest age of understanding, he is taught the divine splendor of his birth and impressed with the high duties of his fmily privilege in being permitted to bear a part in preparing the earth for the second coming of the Savior. He is taught that, though all the world may be saved and nearly all the people of this sphere will in some eternity work out a measure of salvation, he and 143.999 others are to be a band of the elect whoshall stand about the Savior, on mOunt Zion, in the final day. He is taught that, next to Christ, Joseph Smith, the founder of the faith, has performed the largest mission for the salvation of the world; that in the councils of the Gods, when the creator measured off the ages of the human race on this earth, to the Savior was apportioned "the meridian of time," and to Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was given the "last dispensation," which is "the fullness of times," in order that the world, having appostatized from the atonement and the redemption, might be saved to heaven by Joseph, "the Choice Seer." He is taught that the disciples of the Mormon Prophet are literally the disciples of Jesus christ; that the laws of right and wrong are within the direction and subject to the authority of the Prophet, to be changed, enlarged or even revoked by his commandment; that all human laws are equally dubject to his will, to be made or unmade at his order, that he can condemn, by his excommunication, any or any nation to the vengeance of the Almighty here and hereafter; and that he can pronounce a blessing upon the head of any man, or the career of any people, by virtue of which blessing power shall be held in this world righteously and the man elevated to sit at the right ohand of God in the world to come. He is taught that the greatest sin which can be committed-next to the denail of Christ-is to raise hand or voice against 'the Lord's anointed," the Mormon Prophets. And, for morality, he is taught from his infancy, that he must scrupulouly practise those special virtues of his cult, industry, thrift, purity (except as in later life he shall be inducted into the practice of the new polygamy, honest in business, and sharity toward his needy fellow-men. Formed in character by this teaching, as a steady inculcation throughout his youth, he comes to manhood strong of body, determined of mind, practising rigidly and intolerantly his petty virtues of abstinence from the use of tobacco, tea and coffee, proclaiming with fanacal zeal the gospel as it has been proclaimed to him, and self-justified in all that he says or does by the large measure of sincerity in his delusions. And that is, in some degree, the common training of all mormons. Every Mormon boy attends Sunday School as soon as he is old enough to lisp his song of adoration to Joseph, the Kingly Prophet, and to the Savior with whom Joseph is early associated in his childish mind. to be cont. gc From The Subjects of the Kingdom www.sacred-texts.com/mor/upu/chap19.htm   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 887 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.206 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 3:29 pm:        On the night of April 18, 1905, Joseph F. Smith and some eight of his sons sat in his official box at the Salt Lake Theatre to watch a prize fight that lasted for 20 gory rounds. The Salt Lake Tribune published the fact that the Prophet of God, had given the holy approval of his 'holy presence' to this clumsy barbarity. A devout old lady, who had been in the church since the days of Nauvoo, rebuked us for publishing such a falsehood about Pres. Smith. "How dare you tell such wicked lies about God's servants." she scolded. "President Smith wouldn't do such a wicked thing as attend a prize fight. And you know that no man with any sense of decency would take his young sons to see such a thing!" Some time later, when the facts of the case had come to her, in her retirement, from her friends, the editor called upon her to quiz her about the incident. She said, "I'm sure it is no business of the outside world anyhow what President Smith does. He has a right to go to the theatre if he wants to. I don't believe they would have anything but what is good in the Salt Lake Theatre. It was built by our people and they own it. And if it wasn't good, President Smith wouldn't have taken his boys there." This was not merely the absurdity of an old woma. It is the logic of all the faithful in the mormon church. The leaders cannot do wrong, because it is right if they do it. No act of theirs can be proven an error. If they did not do a thing, it was right not to do it, and it would have been a sin if it had been done. But if they do that thing, then it was right to do it; and it would have been a sin, if it had not been done. "You will never be able to reach the conscience of the mormons," a man who knows them has declared. "I have had my experiences with both leaders and people. If you tell them, 'You're ninety-nine and one-half percent pure gold,' they will ask, surprised and indignant, 'What, Why, what's the matter with the other half percent." www.sacredtexts.com Are there any christians who post here besides me who can relate to this? gc   x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 15 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 9:27 pm:        Yes I absolutly can relate to this.   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 10:43 pm:        I'm sorry Joesdad, I will not, at this time, change anything on my website as your claims are the ones that are false. I'm sorry that you don't feel my web site has factual information, but it does. I don't want to argue with you about this. Let's just agree to disagree. In fact, I didn't even apply for it, or know anything about it, but the site won an award recently -- so obviously somebody thinks the information on the site is informative and accurate. Now, I've answered your questions, when will you answer the numerous questions I've asked you that you have continually avoided? "In Christ alone I place my trust..." (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005)   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 284 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 4:12 am:        X11: My beliefs are authentic, as they are mine _ even I'm not old enough to need archeological evidence to prove what I believe. Your first post does not make sense, please rephrase what you are asking. No need to thank me, but I reckon you should apologise to God for turning your back on the Church. You prove to me my eyes are not opened - that must be easy, mustn't it? cjv: They are not false! I have made similar comments to several sites like yours based in the UK, and each proclaim to correct when shown errors, and each like you fail to do so - so much for honesty. Though I understand that once you start correcting it, you will begin questioning it, and then will lose whatever reason you claim to have for posting false statements about the LDS Church - just like when you were in the TWI - your eyes glaze over when your lcaims are challenged, and you pretend they do not exist. Far from moving from a cult to freedom, you have established your own, based on attacking something you know little of and understand even less of. This is not meant as an attack on you personally, but on your blinkered attitude, which seems clearly to have been created by your past experiences. Sorry, due to lack of time, may I aks you distill from your comments those questioons you feel unanswered?   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:27 pm:        Alright joesdad, let’s revisit your charges again as I’m guessing you have trouble reading (the answer to your charges are not only clearly posted right here in this thread, but the answers to your charges have been clearly posted and repeated.) But I’ll play. It's a very common LDS, JW etc. tactic and I’m quite used to it in apologetics. You make charges, do not substantiate them, you receive proof (from LDS doctrine itself I might add) that your charges are totally incorrect, but persist in saying YOU LIE YOU GIVE FALSE INFORMATION…etc. So let’s do this again, shall we? You asked: I ask what you mean by charismatic, in your description of a leader. I defined this for you. You ignore my definition and veer off randomly into an entirely unrelated to the discussion. You asked: I think you will agree after reading accounts of Joseph Smith, that he was no more charismatic than the next man, but of course that was not necessary for him to be called as a prophet of God. Then, you attempt this comparison with other groups, but ignore or totally miss the extreme difference, in that we have had a dozen other Prophets called of God since Joseph’s death, all of which having been given the mantle of Prophet and all have called upon the world to accept Christ, and each of whom have had no less authority to act in Gods name than Joseph. yet each acknowledges Josephs work in the restoration. Where to each of these fit in with your comparison? I pointed out to you that you misunderstood the text on the web site. What was said exactly is this: All Christian cults are eerily alike. There is a charismatic founder or leader or 'prophet,' usually a man. These 'prophets' are given the 'only' true teachings or the only 'New' teachings about the Bible and God. They are specially chosen by God to 'teach' others about these new revelations. Those who believe in these leaders and what they teach are therefore the 'only' true 'Christians'. The group therefore becomes the 'only' true 'church' or 'body of believers.' Which if you’ll see makes your comment very confusing. Still not seeing where anything needs to be corrected here. You said: (snip) We never claim to be the only true Christians. We declare that the fullness of the Gospel has been restored – acknowledging that over the past 2,000 years mankind has according to their own will and desires, or weaknesses changed and diluted the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nothing NEW just the old RESTORED, again different form what you claim… You are wrong. I have already answered this, proven you wrong, and then you rejected the answer even though the quotes obviously proved that the LDS Church considers it not only to be the only true Christian church but that there is no way to heaven except through the LDS Church. See the above postings in this thread I’ve previously made for those quotes. I will add more quotes to substantiate the facts: ”The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints possesses (sic) the full truth relative to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, the one divine plan of salvation, and also the authority to officiate in God’s name in the upbuilding (sic) of the Church of Christ. There is but one gospel; there can be but on Church which encompasses the whole truth of the gospel, and into which all truth may find its place. In that sense the Church claims to possess the full fundamental truth, call if (sic) monopoly if you choose, necessary for full salvation in the celestial kingdom of God. This Church does humbly and gratefully, keenly sensible of its high commission and vast responsibility, to lead all mankind into a fullness of the knowledge leading to eternal progression [Mormons turning into gods themselves] in the presence of the Lord.” Mormon Apostle John A. Widstoe Evidences and Reconciliations 1:24 “A man cannot receive the fullness of truth except in the kingdom of God, in other words, if you please, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints… Tenth Mormon President/Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation 1:299 “There is no salvation outside this one true Church, the Church of Jesus Christ.” Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374 [Note, lest anyone believe that this LDS work is not highly regarded by the LDS Church -- in the Salt Lake Tribune July 23, 1979 advertisement, is said about this vital and important piece of LDS doctrinal teachings: "Mormon Doctrine is still the most comprehensive one-volume authority on what Latter-day Saints believe. It is an invaluable work of reference..."] I also have quotes where LDS “prophets” and leaders attack all other Christian Churches – Catholic and Protestant as “destitute of all authority of God, whores of Babylon whom the Lord denounces…and so on (Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, pg. 255) You said: In reality your paragraph (or your entire site) contains not one single evidence of the Church being “based on the darkest of evil”, but in fact goes on to talk about matters than in no way link the Church to any kind of occult activities – pure sensationalism. I will go into more detail about the evil and occult nature of the LDS Church for clarity. The Mormon Church teaches that faithful Mormons themselves can turn into gods someday. This is evil blasphemy as the Bible tells us there is only ONE God. I’ve given numerous quotes in this thread to back this charge up, and this would be all I would need to substantiate my charge that the Mormon Church is “based on the darkest of evil.” However, the Mormon Temple Ceremony is truly not only a blasphemous and evil ritual practiced by LDS, it is based in the occult. Now joesdad, do you really want to go there? I have transcripts of the actual LDS Temple Ceremony I’d be more than happy to post here. Just say the word. For now, again, you are wrong, there is nothing to correct on my web site. That statement stands to be absolutely true: "...the Mormon Church is based on the darkest of evil.” Preaching that there is more than one god is evil. Period. Preaching something that the serpent himself said in the garden of Eden – Satan himself used in his successful attempt to trick Eve is evil: Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. So let’s recap this false charge of yours: 1) you protested that the Church does not do any kind of occult activities. Wrong. The Mormon Temple Ceremony can’t get much more cultic. 2) You protested that I stated the Mormon Church is “based on the darkest of evil.” I’ve only touched on two reasons where it is here (on the web site I go into more details and am happy to do so here at a later time), and I have shown that the Mormon Church teaches that not only are there numerous gods, but that Mormons can turn into gods themselves. Evil – pure evil. You are again wrong and I have nothing to change on my web site what-so-ever. You said: What evidence do you have that Joseph used a stone to “bilk (sic) many of his own townspeople out of their money claiming he could 'see' treasure underground with this 'peep' stone” (snip) Shot this one out of the water as well. I produced historical documents, in this thread, in detail, that proved Smith was a diviner, who used a “peep stone” in his hat to “find buried treasure.” For a fee of course, and this treasure always seemed not to be found. He was tried and convicted of doing so. Also that he used this occult peep stone to "translate" the Book of Mormon in the same manner -- putting into his hat and coming up with the passages for the BOM -- allegedly. You didn't comment on these historical facts, just glossed over them. Yet you still repeated your completely false charges. So again, you are wrong and this has been proven before and once again. You said: How after what you have said in opening your site, can you claim the purpose of the site is to point out the teachings of the Church, when you have not bothered so far. Then you haven’t been to the web site you claim to have visited and read. This is ridiculous as 1) I’ve already answered this and 2) it’s obvious I’ve discussed the teachings of the Mormon Church on the web site, you’ve said so yourself in your accusations! You just don’t like the WAY I’ve presented those teachings, but it’s a total twisting of the truth to claim I don’t discuss any of the teachings on the web site. Anyone with a fourth grade reading level can go to the web site and see that this accusation of yours is a bad attempt by you to once again pin false charges on me. You said: The link to “Baptism of the Dead” to which I refer above leads to another page on your site correctly using the word “for”– therefore YOUR error. Let me make this perfectly clear I think this would be for the fourth time now. There is nothing wrong with the statement “Baptism of the Dead.” Why? Because one of the numerous Mormon Temple Ceremonies baptizes dead people. The LDS teaching is that the dead or “spirits” can’t stand there and partake in the actual Temple Ceremony, so a Mormon stands in for them. In essence BAPTIZING A DEAD PERSON BY PROXY. So please, stop this rant as this is the last time I will address this issue. There will be no changes, what is written on the web site is accurate both grammatically and factually about this evil practice Therefore, once again – you are wrong I’m afraid and the issue has been discussed (ad nauseam), addressed and your charges found to be completely and utterly false. You said: (snip) …because of this I do not consider the other “letters” on the page to be reliable. That is your problem. They are authentic, they are from former LDS who have left the church and I will not change them or alter them as they are the author’s own words. You said: Your “Mormonism compared to Christianity” page is hilarious – How on earth can you claim that the Bible rejects new revelation – where? Sorry about this one too, but your rejection of this page on the web site is not authoritative. I used, by permission of John Ankerberg, a chart that is accurate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the chart and I have – again – on this thread, quoted scripture that shows why Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the NEED for prophets. I never said prophecy or revelation can not happen. But I said the NEED for prophets, according to scripture was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Also – just FYI – the Bible also tells us to hold anything a prophet says to the accuracy of God’s Word, the Bible. If the prophecy is not in harmony with the Bible, it is false. Ergo,the prophet is false – as has been shown time and time again with LDS so-called “prophets.” You said: We are monotheistic, you obviously do not understand LDS doctrine. Now I must have a good laugh here. You don’t know your own church doctrine joesdad! Mormonism most definitely is not monotheistic, it is polytheistic as carefully and meticulously detailed in this very thread by me and numerous others using LDS doctrine quotes! Thus, the LDS Church can not be Christian. Orthodox Historical Christianity has always been and is today, monotheistic. You are wrong on this and you know it. I will not change this information on my web site for obvious reasons. You said: Again, we do believe in a virgin Birth Nope, that's simply not true at all – see the new thread “MORMON GOD AND CHRIST POLYGAMISTS?” It’s detailed (not comprehensively BTW because there are volumes more quotes) that the LDS Church teaches that Mary was impregnated by the Mormon top god so to speak, just like earthly men and women have sex. Thus, no virgin birth for Mary according to LDS doctrine! Plus, as you well know but choose to ignore, your presumption of saying the LDS Church teaches about a Virgin birth is absolutely false and has been discussed as so on this very thread. I’m shocked at the ignorance of your own dogma once again! But I do invite the opportunity of repeating the very evil teachings of the LDS Church to show the public why this organization is a cult. So I thank you for the opportunity to do so. You said: Again, we believe in salvation by grace AFTER all that we CAN do, we can’t earn it, a sloppy ignorance of LDS doctrine… Couldn’t be too sloppy because in this very thread I proved this false accusation wrong as well. See the thread that quotes the Book of Mormon (BOM) and then shows clearly that LDS teachings make it clear one must do things i.e. -- WORK -- to get to heaven. LDS teachings therefore say that grace isn’t enough apparently. See that well worked out posting I put up in this thread, it spells it out nicely and proves that your accusation is again false. You said: how can you claim we deny the Atonement – this is false. If you mean I show that LDS teachings, from the Book of Mormon shows that the blood of Jesus only covers SOME sins, that’s just what was done here in this thread. That’s why the listings of the need for “works” to get to heaven. See that proof that you are wrong about this already posted above as I mentioned. You said: Your description of LDS view of death is nonsense because of its lack of detail, and failure to define what you mean. In reality you comparisons are a ridiculous fantasy either fed to you, or produced by you through laziness and failure to discover true LDS teachings. Hardly. There is nothing discussed on the web site that is inaccurate about this topic. I think it’s well established now that you’re just blowing a lot of hot air because you don’t like the way that your church teachings are exposed. It has nothing to do with false or misleading or nonfactual information. So in conclusion: there is nothing I need to change, adjust or correct on my web site. It is you who are wrong, not what is written about on the web site. End of discussion. Come up with something new, this is getting a bit old and tired. I feel like I’m back in the classroom with Elementary students having to repeat myself over and over and over again because the kids aren’t listening. Maybe you just need a refresher course in your own church doctrine. Maybe you need a reading course, maybe you need to look up the quotes of your own LDS Church doctrine and see that what we are saying here is correct. It is you who are wrong, you who are blinded and that is very sad. Look these things up for yourself, do not blindly follow any organization and turn away from the heretical teachings of the LDS Church and turn to the true Jesus Christ the only God, the only ONE GOD who can save you! Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. “In Christ alone I place my trust…” (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005)   x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:37 pm:        joesdad: you are right they are your beliefs, as the LDS leaders will not take a stand on exactly what the LDS believe. 1.Lds teachings have changed and contradicted each other consistantly since js founded the mormon church why? 2. Eternal mariage is taught as an important priciple in LDS docterine, This contradicts luke 20;30-34 please explain. 3. Does joseph smith pass or fail the test of a "true prophit" found in deut 18;20-22? And if you answer yes he passes, please explain how so, and why many of j smiths prophcies did not come to pass. I would greatly appreciate your response.   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:41 pm:        To see the shocking occult goings on in the LDS Temple Ceremony, follow this link: http://www.luciferlink.org/mcerem.htm More clear evidence why the Mormon Church couldn't possibly be Christian. Make certain to click on all the links you possibly can, especially the photos section and the explanations. It will be quite an eye opener and is very chilling. Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:47 pm:        To see the shocking occult goings on in the LDS Temple Ceremony, follow this link: http://www.luciferlink.org/mcerem.htm More clear evidence why the Mormon Church couldn't possibly be Christian. Make certain to click on all the links you possibly can, especially the photos section and the explanations. It will be quite an eye opener and is very chilling. Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 4:45 pm:        Sorry that last one got posted twice, I only clicked once, but an error message said that "the Ghost in the machine" had a malfunction and to try again. Please accept my apologies. And godchild -- about your story regarding LDS leaders and they never can say something wrong. I know it was just that way in the cult I was in called The Way International (TWI). If the leadership spoke, especially the founder Wierwille -- it was from God's lips to our ears. The leadership could not in any way be wrong. When I (and others) found wrong teachings and spoke up, we were filled with "devil spirits." Back in the day (this is revealing my age here...) when it was a choice between VHS or Beta format for video tapes -- "The Ministry" put out everything in Beta. Few people had Beta machines. I had the audacity to ask "Why are all video materials in Beta when that's the least popular type of format used" I was told that leadership had received revelation from God that that was the format that must be used. The "revelation" ended up being fazed out and it was a great expense to convert all video materials to VHS format. But leadership can never be wrong... Just a few examples of that type of nonsense. So in answer to your question, I can definitely relate indeed! BECAUSE HE LIVES! "In Christ alone I place my trust..."   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 901 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.112 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 5:09 pm:        cjv, we have all gotten the 'mixed wires' from the 'ghost in the machine'. I personally think it is a poltergeist and not a ghost at all. Never the less, some statements are worth repeating. (I apologise for mixing up your initials.)   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 5:59 pm:        LOL!! Well, we are after all on the Mormon boards, they believe in ghosts and baptizing for the dead...so maybe that's not too far off godchild!!   egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 127 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.74.37.85 Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 6:08 pm:        Hi, Classes and grading have kept me away from this thread for awhile. If SoloPilot and Joesdad have clarified the following questions and I missed it, please excuse me. As I understand you, there is only one God, the Father. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God, but are part of the Godhead. Am I correct? Other questions: How can Jesus and the Holy Spirit be part of the Godhead and not be God? What does it mean to be part of the Godhead? Is Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be worshiped? If so, how can you do that when they are not God? I'm asking this for clarification. BTW Catholics do not worship Mary and the Saints. We venerate them. In Catholic (and Protestant and Orthodox) theology only God is worship. EGK   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 288 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 9:44 am:        Cjv: love to see your Christian attitude continuing on, actually, I ask you to restate your questions you claim to have raised and you claim I have “continually” avoided. Obviously your idea of a question is different from the norm, they usually start of with a phrase that makes them obviously a question, I take it you mean I have not responded to your responses about what I said – is that about right? No word games, just I had no idea your were patiently awaiting a response from me. No tactics, no funny business, you claim to have asked questions which are far from obvious, I did not have time at that point to reread everything, so I asked, nicely, if you would reiterate your “questions”, I’m unsure why this is so difficult, but anyway. OK What you claim is proof is no more than a soundbite from a veritable library of quotes and comments made by leaders of the Church, as you purposely fail to mention the existence of any comment made by a Church leader that shows the Church to believe opposite to what you claim – this cannot be given the title of “evidence” – as I say, no more than a soundbite. I have pointed out to you many areas where your site claims to state LDS doctrine, where it does not, yet you chose to claim that what you say, despite what you say indicating that I have beliefs that are not mine. May I suggest that I know hat I believe much better than you know what I believe - a silly point I know for you, but one worth making. It is therefore for you to substantiate your nefarious accusations, not for me to substantiate my rejection of your false claims. If I don’t believe a doctrine as you claim I do, then I don’t believe it, there is not need for proof that I don’t. What exactly did you expect me to say about your definition of charismatic – I asked you answered – simple answer and question. Yes the LDS have the fullness of the Gospel like I said, where are the many quotes where church leaders say we are the only true Christians – there must be loads of them. Your comments on the Temple are of course backed up by your experience? You make no effort at all to indicate what about the Temple is Satanic – and why? - because you don’t know a) anything about the Temple and b) about the occult. If you did, you would give examples, rather than a sensationalist sweep. Do you really think that all symbols or actions have had the same meaning throughout time? To claim the Temple is Satanic, you have to prove that the origin for the way things are done there were taken from satanic sources by those who introduced them – not some lazy comparison to what something MIGHT have meant at some time now or in the past. From what you say your claim to Darkest Evil is based on your slanted view on Mormonism rather than any credible definition. Unfortunately, if your “letters” are seen as unreliable it is your problem as you are the one choosing to rely in them. Who is John Ankerburg?, why do you deem his comparison accurate – do you actually KNOW that it is not wrong, or simply hoped it is not? Was it produced as an independent comparison? Cjv YOUR misunderstanding of LDS doctrine is giving you a problem, before starting out to say what we believe, why not take the unusual step of finding it out from us first? If one of your sites said the Mormons believe the moon is made of cheese, then produces a document (so they say) showing the words cheese and moon in the same paragraph you believe them because you want to. No sense to this approach at all. I KNOW we don’t believe what you say about virgin birth, polytheism etc etc, you believe some persons CLAIM of what I believe – your blinkered attitude is astounding. Grace and works – I tell you what we believe – you say we don’t, can you give any good reason why I would say what we believe and not know it or believe it – but you reckon you know better – again, no common sense. Cjv: get your head out of the books and stuff you are relying on and take some time to learn what I believe – you are chasing a shadow created by you desire to believe all that is negative about the Church regardless of whether you are being mislead by them – you believe what they want you to believe – initiated into the church of the blind ani-LDS false sayers, and you don’t even know it. That’s all today as I have work to do. Just one last thing, I really can't decide why you Christians find insulting a persons intellect, reading ability etc. fair game to just beacuse you want to prove a person wrong and ultimately put them down a good way to behave - but I suppose that you'll say I donlt believe you're Christians anyway   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 905 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.171 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:28 am:        joesdad, Do you believe cjv, nulla, gc, egk, x11 are christians? You are the one making this a 'personal' debate. Do not blame us if YOU are unable to state YOUR beliefs. We are speaking of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints beliefs. If you want to separate your personal beliefs from theirs, just say so. If your last paragraph was an insinuation that we put YOU down because of your intellect and reading ability 'fair game', then I personally apologise. If your statement meant that smarter people than joseph smith can see through him, I won't apologise for that. He made the choice to call himself prophet, seer, revelater, and those who follow him should be able (or learn to be able) to give intelligent, logical, honest evidence of his teachings. Or shut up. Simple enough! Or would you like me to repeat myself?   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 907 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.171 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:39 am:        joesdad, slow down and think before you put your thoughts to type, please. 'you purposely fail to mention the existence of any comment made by a Church leader that shows the Church to believe opposite to what you claim-this cannot be given the title of "evidence"-as I say, no more than a soundbite.' What does that mean? If it means what you typed, you are VERY confused.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 908 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.171 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:52 am:        joesdad, as for your second paragraph above, it is simple to 'scroll up'. Try it. Also, if this bothers you that I respond to questions you ask cjv, you can ask her personally as she was kind enough to give her email address. (am I reading your mind? Not to worry, I am not a prophetess, you are just sooo easy). And we don't need your 'derrrs or errrs to realize you are a frustrated man. Take a deep breath and count to ten. And try praying. That never fails christians when it is Gods will.   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 2:46 pm:        joesdad -- You're right, I didn't restate the questions. That would have made that lengthy post way too long. But let me get back to just one of them: Brigham Young was your churches greatest prophet aside from Smith -- since he "prophesied" that God was Adam, and you clearly insisted that the LDS Church does not teach that nowadays -- will you then admit that he was: 1) A false prophet 2) Crazy 3) Wrong 4) Or all of the above? Re: What you continue to insist are my false statements: If you choose to reject your own Church doctine I say -- at least you're on the right track. My postings and my web site contain accurate, truthful information. Here they have been backed by people who have had years and years of experience in the LDS Church - so your charges and accusations have no basis. You are confused about your own Church teachings obviously, and that's understandable. LDS doctrine changes with the wind. Don't blame me for that, I'm just the messenger. Re: The LDS Temple Ceremony. Are you claiming that I must have been involved in the Temple Ceremony to comment on it? I suppose you would also claim that a judge needs to be raped before a judge can make any legal decision based on the evidence? What an irrational argument. The contents of what goes on in the occult LDS Temple ceremony is public information now. I did give specifics about it in several posts in other threads and I gave a link (the post showed up twice by mistake) that describes the Temple Ceremony and symbols in great detail. Anyone can obtain the information I've been presenting here, I don't have to have gone through it to know what goes on. Just as I don't have to have taken part in a Pagan Wiccan ceremony to know that on one of their high holy nights, they dance around a circle of fire, naked and then eventually the adults run off and have sex in the tall grass. Or that Satanists tend to sacrifice an animal or human being on Halloween night. The spilling of blood of an animal is considered "holy" the spilling of the blood of a human is the holiest of holies. Some of the larger groups have woman who are captive they call "cows" to produce babies just for this reason. True Satanists are deeply, deeply secretive because much of what they do in their rituals is illegal. Does that mean it is impossible to obtain any information about their rituals? There is no source? Impossible to study these things and comment unless I become a Satanist? Nonsense. The information I've posted regarding the LDS Temple Ceremony is accurate and factual. Re: Your confused backward logic about my not posting what an LDS leader would say that would contradict what I say -- I think that's the point you were trying to make is not a good argument. LDS doctrine changes constantly. Even the so-called "sacred" Temple Ceremony changed as soon as copies of the nonsense that goes on in it went public. LDS "prophets" contradict themselves, LDS doctrine and then change it again to try and make it fit their changes. It's chaos, and God is not the God of chaos, Satan is. The LDS Church and it cock-a-mamie teachings is SO not Christian and SO not from God! LDS "prophets" say one thing one day -- Adam is God -- and the next -- NOPE -- prophecy changed! We just got a prophecy that God is someone else! So now THIS God is the REAL God. HEEEEELLLLLLOOOOOO! Do you realize how irrational that all sounds??? And this is what you defend. Bless your heart. But I remember I was once like you, defending the indefensible, so I understand where you're coming from. As godchild said -- if I ever personally attacked you, I apologize. I am attacking the lies of Mormonism and I should not attack you. You have scales before your eyes, I just pray someday that you'll see the true Jesus, because He isn't in Mormonism. While you have breath, there's hope though! I've been praying for you and I will continue to pray! Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 45 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 2:57 pm:        BTW joesdad -- You said for me to "get my head out of the books" -- and then I could better know what it is you believe. Would you then say: The Book of Mormon Doctrine and Covenants Pearl of Great Price The Book of Abraham Mormon Doctrine The Mysteries of Godliness/A History of Mormon Temple Worship (by David John Buerger) Achieving a Celestial Marriage Family Home Evenings Search These Commandments -- Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide Encyclopeida Of Mormonism can not tell me what it is that LDS believe? And this is just to name a few of the actual LDS documents/books I own. What will do a better job then? Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.   nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 103 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 3:27 pm:        They read and believe all the ones you listed CJV in full Plus they use and read when it is to their own favour a book called the Holy Bible, though it is incomplete and needs a correct translation they PROMOTE this book on the lds and mormon.org as a FREE gift to us christians in the hope they we assume they believe it in total and that they are a christian church. They do not tell us they hold the BoM above this book and if you dare use it as a tool against their prophet by questioning his interpretation they will turn on you like a viper. (I have to start using spell check...I'm forever editing :-)) Nulla (Message edited by nulla on May 05, 2005)   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.110.100.159 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 5:56 pm:        I know nulla, and it's so sad how Satan can deceive the mind. LDS claim they use the Bible but is totally secondary to their own "prophets" and their own man-made materials. There's this software that does a spell check right in Explorer (or AOL) etc. It's for bloggers and it's freeware. E-mail me and I'll send you the link (I'm not at my own computer right now -- and am not using it, I'm imagining you can tell...lol) You just right click on the area where you have typed and it spell checks. It's really very good. cjv123@comcast.net   nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 105 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 6:39 pm:        Thanks CJV, my problem is I when I'm at my office. I'm on a network and cannot download nor use anything else. I am fine when at home. thanks for the kind thoughts. god bless Nulla   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 915 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.97 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 9:07 am:        Austin Cowles, former first counselor to the Latter Day Saint and William Law, former second counselor, confronted Joseph Smith with his heresy, adultery and fornication. They gave him a chance to come clean but he rebuffed them out of PRIDE (sin of satan, gc) "but our petitions were treated with contempt; and in many cases the petitioner spurned from their presence and particularly Joseph, who would state that if he had sinned, and was guilty of the charges (js was at that time denying he was molesting a 15 yr old girl, among others, gc) we would reaher charge him with, he would not make acknowledgment, but would rather be damned; for it would detract from his DIGNITY, and would consecuently ruin and prove the overthrow of the Church. We would ask him on the other hand, if the overthrow of the church was that inevitable, to which he often replied that we would all go to hell together and convert it into a heaven, by casting the divil out; and sys he, Hell is by no means the place this world of fools suppose it to be, but on the contrary, it is quite an agreeable place." (Nauvoo Expositor, Vol. 1, Nauvoo, IL June 7, 1844) The young girl in question wrote in her journal that js made the same statements to her concerning hell.   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 9:16 am:        Didn't know this about JS -- and I thought I'd read everything... But I'm not surprised. Sexual depravity is very, very common among cult leaders. It's a common thread through many of them -- Jim Jones, David Koresh, The Way Internationl's Wierwille, LDS so-called 'prophets.' I'm not sure why it is this sin they flagrantly display, but it appears to be the most common one. It's the megalomania thing going on I suppose -- power over the weakest to make themselves feel more powerful.   cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 9:20 am:        Well joesdad, I did what you asked. I addressed for the umteenth time a bunch of your charges. I then reposted at least one question you insisted I repeat because you didn't want to take the time to go back in this thread (right here) to find the questions asked at least two other times. I did that for your. Kindly give me the courtesy of an answer. "In Christ alone I place my trust..."   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 289 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 9:53 am:        cjv: You are becoming very boring, though I applaud your actual use of books published by the Church, you read them to prove your own biased beliefs about the Church - therefore you cannot understand what the books truly say- find out what we really believe, from a member of the church, then go back to the books and discover all the stuff you have missed - then you'll be up to correcting your web site. Your "will you then admit" bit about Brigham Young is very childish - again, were you to bother learning about the church (not the dross you feed on from your trusted anti pages) then you would see just how silly your present thoughts on the Adam God "theory" is - no such teaching, no such theory - if there is one, it has been invented by non Mormons. Your last post - grow up, I didn't have the time, and rather than leave the door open for a childish accusation that I ignored you, I asked, politely that you repeat - impatient aren't you? If you in any way understood the sacred nature of the Temple ceremonies, and what they mean to LDS you would I hope show a lot more respect for them, otherwise your comments deserve no more than contempt. The only question I can see is the one re: Brigham Young, is that OK? Hey, don't worry about the personal attacks, they have no effect on me, they just reflect the ignorance anger and dark feelings hidden inside you and GC - I am more concerned at the plain falsehoods you are entangled in, and that those like GC who claim to know encourage you - I believe you are no less trapped in the work you are now doing than you were in TWI - and you are blind to that, just as you were then - is GC REALLY any different from those that would whiper in your ear, and encourage you to do "what was right"? - you've never met her, or the others you read from - yet you open yourself up to their biased views - you cetainly are not free, nor do you place you trust only in Christ as you proclaim - that is evident from your postings, and how you each react to the grooming given to each other on these threads. Scary to see how you each entangle the other in your webs of falsehoods.   bee (bee) Member Username: bee Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.63.255.112 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:03 am:        Greetings Joesdad, Do you feel one has to be Mormon to go to heaven? Do you believe that those who place their trust in what Christ did for us at the cross is enough in & of itself to be saved, or does one need something more to be saved? Thanks & Blessings!   steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 150 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:08 pm:        bee , you better go through many of these post.You will surly see what joesdad beleives. You also need to know that being saved in the lds church & Having eternal life in the celestial kingdom are 2 diffrent things. In lds theology all are saved from the grave. this is what Christ did for them on the cross , but now as far as the degrees of heaven once you get past the grave this will be based on the laws & ordinances of the church, so what you need to ask joesdad is by the sacrifice on the cross am i saved to eternal life with the heavenly father in the celestial kingdom. otherwise joesdad will say that yes you are saved by the cross , but you don't get the celestial kingdom, only the terrestial , or maybe the telestial. Being saved in mormonism has diffrent meanings , so bee understand what you are asking a mormon, without being indepth. Steel Jude 3   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 916 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.32 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:19 pm:        Joesdad, you sound very familiar. Not unlike satanists who laughingly say "ha ha, they think we worship satan. We don't even believe in satan." I only hope you will allow your children to experience freedom of choice. Don't keep them in the cocoon you have chosen for yourself. Let them come out of the darkness into the light. Today I invite all those who know the Christ of the Holy Bible to join with me in praying for the freedom of children of cults.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 922 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.32 Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 3:22 pm:        Romans 1:18-20 How much can be know about God apart from the special revelation God has given us as recorded in Scripture? Theologians divide revelation into two major categories: natural revelation, which includes all that can be deduced about God from his creation, and special revelation, which includes all that God has revealed to human beings as recorded in Scripture. In this passage Paul affirms that God's "eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen" in the creation. Specifically, the creation demonstrates the fact that God exists and that God is all-powerful. This passage, however, does more than affirm that such evidence exists. Paul says that "God has made it (his existence and power) plain to them," and that these truths are "understood from what has been made." If we liken creation to a radio transmitter constantly sending out a message, we would say that human beings have built-in radio receivers pretuned to God's station. Human beings are, therefore, "without excuse," because a refusal to acknowledge God can only reflect a wickedness that suppresses what is already known. Romans 1:18-32 Are pagans who have never heard the gospel really lost? If so, this is not fair at all. Paul has just shown that all human beings have a basic knowledge of God communicated through creation. Paul has also argued that human beings willfully suppress this knowledge of God. In the rest of the chapter he goes on to trace the spiritual and moral decline exhibited in human cultures where this knowledge of god is refected. Paul's argument establishes two points. God does speak to all people. Faith is a response to God's self-revelation, and whatever the content of that revelation (Gen. 15:4-6), all have an opportunity to respond in faith to natural revelation. While we might argue that belief in Christ is necessary for salvation, another might say that if a person did respond to God's natural revelation, the Lord would see that in some way that person heard the gospel. However, all such argument is hypothetical, for Paul's point is that human beings do not respond to natural revelation. In fact, their suppression of the know truth about God proves that human beings truly are lost. For if humanity were responsive to God, his revelation would draw them to him as a young person is attracted to a girlfriend or boyfriend. The fact that knowledge of God repels human beings shows how sin has twisted humanity, and how great our need of salvation really is. Larry Richards "735 Baffling Bible Questions Answered" Please feel free to ask questions. gc I know any christian would call it a privilege to share with you.   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 933 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.76 Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 2:39 pm:        What drives your life/ Ecclesiastes 4:4 I observed that the basic motive for success is the driving force of envy and jealousy! The Bible say, "What happiness for those whose guilt has been forgiven!...What relief for those who have confessed their sins and God has cleared their record." If you have grown up in a high-control home or church, you live in fear. You miss great opportunities because you are afraid to venture out. Instead you play it safe, and try to maintain the status quo. Fear is a self-imposed prison that will keep you from becoming what God intends for you to be. You must move against it with the weapons of faith and love. The Bible says, Well-formed love banishes fear. Since fear is crippling, a fearful life--fear of not doing enough works. Your value is not determined by you valuables, and God says the most valuable things in life are not things. Many of you are driven by the need for approval. By your families and your church. Jesus said "you cannot serve two masters." In the Bible, many people expressed this hopelessness. Isaiah complained, "I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing." Job said, "My life drags by--day after hopeless day" and "I give up; I am tired of living. Leave me alone. My life makes no sense." God says "I know what I am planning for you. I Have good plans for you, not plans to hurt you. I will give you hope and a good future. The Bible says, "God is able to do far more than we would ever dare to ask or even dream of--infinitely beyond our highest prayers, desires, thoughts, or hopes. It is impossible to do everything your church wants you to do. If you can't get it all done, it means you're trying to do more than God intended for you to do. The Bible says "A pretentious, showy life is an empty life; a plain and simple life is a full life." The Bible says "Don't live carelessly, unthingkingly. Make sure you understand what the Master wants." Not what men want. Stop confusing activity with productivity. You can be busy doing works without a purpose, but what's the point? Paul said, "Let's keep focused on that goal, those of us who want eerything God has for us." You weren't put on earth to be remembered. You were put here to prepare for eternity. From The Purpose Driven Life (with nominal additions by gc)   cjv (cjv) Member Username: cjv Post Number: 51 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 9:16 pm:        joesdad, I'm so sorry you still stubbornly refuse to see the truth about your own church teachings. You have yet to prove the quotes already posted in this thread about Brigham Young from LDS DOCTRINE are incorrect. I have more quotes though, from Brigham Young, your church "prophet," who said that everything out of his mouth was "as good as scripture." He was a blasphemer of the worst kind. When he taught the Adam is god doctrine, it WAS your Church doctrine (historically) and that has clearly been established by a prior post, also using LDS leadership quotes, in this thread as well. So I remind you what your prophet proclaimed: I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol. 13, pg. 95 1870. My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner...The question has been and is often asked who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary...Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When OUR FATHER ADAM came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve ONE OF HIS WIVES, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! [A]bout whom holy men have written and spoken--HE IS OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD, AND THE ONLY GOD} WITH WHOM WE HAVE TO DO. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1 page 50 April 9, 1852. Here let me state to all philosophers of every class upon the earth, When (sic) you tell me that father Adam was made as we make babies from the earth, you tell me what I deem an idle tale...Mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from ANOTHER PLANET, AND POWER WAS GIVEN THEM TO PROPAGATE THEIR SPECIES. Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol. 7, pg. 285 1859. You can say over and over all you'd like that your church never taught Adam was god, but it did. You can say what I'm quoting here is nonsense, but then you are calling your own church doctrine nonsense. Look it up yourself, or are you too frightened that you'd see the truth about your "prophet" and the loony things he said? Here's something more this "wonderful" prophet said about moonmen: ...Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not not made in vain. It was was made to give light to those who dwell upoin it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized... B. Young Journal of Discourses Vol. 13, pg. 271 1870. The Bible warns us of false prophets, and if you wish to place your salvation -- your soul -- your eternal life in the hands of this nutty stuff, I feel sorry, very sorry for you. You can put your hands over your ears and your eyes and your mouth, like those monkeys all in a row. But it won't change reality. The facts are obvious. I've quoted LDS DOCTRINE. I've quoted from an LDS PROPHET. How can you deny the ugly truth of these quotes when it's YOUR OWN LDS DOCTRINE? Again I repeat, that's not rational. joesdad, get your head out of the sand and realize that this organization is about as much from god as the pub down on the street corner is. Jesus Christ can not be found in this very evil organization. Jesus wants you to know who He is, Jesus wants YOU to turn away from the deception you continue to poision your mind and soul with. Turn to Him, turn to the Bible, put aside man-made teachings and turn to Jesus. Look to the Bible for answers, the Mormon Church never had them and never will. The way to Jesus is never going to be through the Mormon Church. There are no denying the facts. Stop the denials, face reality and turn away from the teachings of Mormonism. They will lead you into darkness. Come out of the dark, into the light of Jesus Christ. Jesus is waiting for you!   nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 108 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 10:51 pm:        CJV. Maybe you will be found unworthy to answer to. Maybe all you do is cut and paste what others have written. Maybe you will be ignored. You myself and many many others are just classed as anti mormons. We are not the ones who claim to be christian then make such anti christ statements (especially from the lds prophets and leaders) When we try to protect the bible from being used to recruit into a cult or try to protect innocent peoples whose doors are knocked upon by brainwashed young men who do not tell the whole truth of the lds. Nulla   godlovesusall (godlovesusall) New member Username: godlovesusall Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 4.242.235.248 Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 11:32 pm:        Well said cjv!! I have a very difficult time understanding how someone can see something in front of them as clear as day and deny it. Joesdad, I am very new to posting things on these threads but I have read through a lot of them. I must say it saddens me to see the unwillingness to admit that the LDS church has tought doctrines it trys to keep from it's members in order to keep a good face for it's members. From what I have seen, it sounds as though the Journal of Discourses it the most credible of all when it comes to proving that things have been taught by LDS phrophets who are highly reguarded as men who speak for God. Why do you shy away from the JOD? The conclusion we all come to is that it sheds bad light on the LDS faith and if you admited that these things are true, it by itself blows the LDS church out of the water easliy as being the true church of God. Take a real look at it for yourself and come back and tell us what you have seen is bogus. I have a feeling that even when and if you do see it for what it is, it won't convince you that your church is wrong. To all of you fighting for what's right, I commend you for standing up for what you have found to be true! I have found it very difficult to do this with my large all mormon family. I was born into the church and went through all of the same experiences most of you have. Looking back at my life as a mormon, I feel sadness and happiness. Sadness for those who are unwilling to see the truth and happiness for the fact that God pulled me through it and helped me stand up for myself for once. I was able to think for myself with God's help and he guided me to where I am now. I still have so much to learn but it is so refreshing to have God as my guide. I have an amazing family that is so steadfast in thier beliefs and I love them for that but at the same time, I hurt for them because none of them will allow me to share my experiences with them because they all think I only go to the wrong scource. They say that have a testimony and that nothing will ever change how they feel. I love them so much and I am always trying to find kind ways to show them what I am learning. It doesn't work because they are not ready to hear it. I pray that God will soften their hearts and humble them so that they may turn to Him and ask for him to come into hearts so that they may join us together in heaven. Thank you again for all of your hard work. I know that it seems like you have to repeat yourselves over and over but sometimes that is what it takes to get through to someone. At the same time, you are helping those of us who have recently left to see more clearly the true teaching of the LDS faith. God bless you.....   nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 110 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 1:12 am:        Godlovesusall Whenever you have posted I am always touched by your story. I do hope and pray that things will work gods way. I am not an ex Mormon so I cannot say how you would be feeling, I am just wanting to say that I feel and understand what you say. I respect very much your understanding of your family and how hard it is for them as well. I have family inlaws who are split because of the lds due to half the family deserting the church. The remaining mormons have now taken it upon themselves to not speak to the rest of the family, something they did not do before. This hurts me to see my loved ones fighting, it hurts me that I am now looked upon as dirt by them. Today is mothers day in Australia and some of these members will as they did on fathers day ignore other brothers and sisters as well as parents. When I speak to inlaws who are ex mormons they say that while mormons they really did not consider me family. I was devastated to hear this and think of all the love I thought they were showing in the past was just a front. They have said sorry to me many times for treating us that way. Good luck Godlovesusall, you are walking the correct path, your lost loved ones will soon see that the footprints you leave behind will lead them to god. Nulla   nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 111 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 1:43 am:        Some more of this so called prophet's word. Brigham Young. "I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 51) "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother. Can might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, page 290) "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.) Our brothers and sisters of all mixed races that live and breath as christians are our living proof this man was a false prophet. It also shows the truth of the lds foundations. I wonder how mormons carrying cains curse really feel within when such statements are being held within the lds walls. Nulla   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 940 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.58 Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:25 pm:        godlovesusall, Your post is one more confirmation that current members of the lds church think we were forced to leave it because of faults of our own. Your story is exactly like mine. Nullas response brought me to tears as on this mother's day, our thoughts naturally go to our families. I hope your post will show that we do not leave that organization because we are not worthy, but because we have been given a gift above all others, God's love and faithfulness to us. I am so grateful for those loving reminders "You are not alone. I am with you always." That brings me immediate peace. Thank you for sharing! When Jesus told the man not to just believe in him but to go home and give it up, I think he also meant family that might rather give him up than the home. He also said we would be hated for his name's sake, but those who endure to the end shall be saved. We also have the assurance that he loves our families just as much as he does us, and therefore we must "Let go, and Let God". His love is much greater than ours.   godlovesusall (godlovesusall) New member Username: godlovesusall Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 4.242.232.249 Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:59 pm:        Godchild, Your post brings me to tears as I feel the spirit so strongly. I have never felt such peace until I left the mormon chuch and I actually have hope now! I didn't leave the church because I was offended or because I had done something aweful. I simply left because I knew deep down inside that I was lying to myself and everyone in my family when I would say "I know that this is the true church." I had many talks with my mother about not feeling quite right about it and she would always tell me to go and read the BOM again with REAL convivtion and that I would know of it's truthfulness. They acted like I never read through the BOM with real conviction and that it was just easier to deny the truthfulness of it because I wanted to have life go the way I wanted it to. the funny thing is, I really really wanted to know. I had given up prayer for most of my teenage life because I knew in my heart that mormonism was false and I didn't know who God was. I didn't know who to pray to! I knew there was a God but I was too afraid to search for Him without feeling like I was betraying my family. No one should ever have to feel that way because God wants us to seek him out. I have very loving parents that meant well and I hold none of this against them because this is what they were taught their entire lives and to leave it, for them this would mean losing everything. Leaving for me brought me peace and a new found life in Christ. I have a sister who is very oppiniated and has spoken for everone else in my family by sending me this email I will post below. It is so sad because I think that we should all be able to speak of who God is and what is true. I am never offended when they try to talk to me about what they believe. I read it and really try to understand their point of view but I don't get the samed respect in return. It is very difficult to stop trying to help them but they don't think that they are wrong. I am the one that in their eyes that is being led into darkness. I don't feel like I am in the darkness anymore! I have found the light and I am going to follow it for the rest of my life because it leads to God! Dear Amberlee, It seems that it has become your mission right now to try to persuade your loved ones that they need to check into other religions. I just want to be up front and clear as a bell, that, and I will only say it once....the only kind of relationship I am willing to have with you is one WITHOUT religion whatsoever! It is not my mission to try and reconvert you to mormonism, you are free to choose as you wish and I respect your choice. However, you seem to be disrespectful to some of the family when they have asked the same of you. I enjoyed my visit with you when you came. It was delightful. I look forward to other times with you like that, where religion was not the topic. I felt we treated each other with Christ-like love and it was very pleasant. That is the ONLY kind of relationship you will get from my family. My children know we love you, they will know who you are....but as long as it is your mission to "be there when they have questions", or influence them in anyway, there will not be a relationship at all. If you contact me in the future with the goal of talking religion, I will disconnect the phone call or block your email address. I just want to make sure I am clear and that there is no reading between the lines with this issue. I am happy with my life, my religion...it brings me peace and hope. There is nothing anyone else could offer me that could replace my testimony and what I have already. Wendy I am listening to K-LOVE and a song by a former Backstreet member, Brian Latrell, is singing such an amazing song. He sings about in Christ alone he trusts and that none of the successes have come to him but through our Lord. We all need to place our trust in the Lord and what He has given us. He is my strenghth and in Him alone I place my trust!   godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 946 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.52 Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 3:24 pm:        Amberlee, May God truly bless you this day. The Bible says 'resist the devil, and he shall flee from you'. I experienced the same things from my family. You see, my mother told me long ago, before I left the church, that she thought I would be her one child that would lead her other children to the Lord. I was the only one who studied mormon books and asked questions. The other children seem to live their lives with this notion, "I will do anything not to upset Mom." I think your sister feels the same way. But she has no right to speak for the other members of your family. So do not pay attention to that. They are your family too. I waited until my nephew was 18 before I said one word to him in order not to offend my sister. He told me, Aunt -----, I already know the mormon church isn't true. It was, however, easier for him to stay in it and keep peace in the family. I had the same experience with my brother-in-law. He said the same thing, "I know you are right about the Church." He finally left it several years later and now he and his wife are missionaries for the Lord. My sister-in-law told me the same thing. (She was married to the other brother) "I know the church isn't true, but I am not going to give up my marriage to Lowell over it." YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Have no fear! On this Mother's Day when our thoughts are on our families, I would like to share a portion of Corrie Ten Boom's book "Tramp for the Lord". Corrie was a great christian speaker who survived the holocaust not because she was a jew, but because her family hid jews from the Nazis. She lost all but her sister to the concentration camps. (What we suffer is nothing to what that little lady did) Corrie carried a little piece of empbroidery. She often used it often to help her audiences see their circumstances "a little bit from God's point of view." She would begin, "When the worst happens in the life of a child of God--and for me it did--the best remains and the very best is yet to be." Then she would slip out of her bag a shiny blue cloth which I had mistaken for embroidery. She would hold it up backward so that the audience found themselves staring at the tangled, knotted, untidy, yellow threads on the underside of the cloth, and she would quote The Weaver: My life is like a weaving Between my God and me. I do not choose the colors; He worketh steadily. Ofttimes He chooseth sorrow, And I in foolish pride Forget He see the upper And I the underside. As she spoke the last two lines, Corrie would turn the cloth around so everybody would see a golden crown instead of tangled threads, and she would continue: Not till the loom is silent And the shuttles cease to fly Will God unroll the canvas And explain the reason why. The dark threads are as needful In the skillful Weaver's hand As the threads of gold and silver In the pattern He has planned. gc, I am sorry I don't know the author. May God be with us til we meet again! Because He lives, I can face tomorrow. Because He lives, all fear is gone. Because I know He holds the future, I can face another day because He lives. Dayspring   joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 291 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 9:06 am:        cjv: I've not much time, just one thing though - I recall an (Irish) Born Again song entitled Father Abraham (or something like it) that says we are all sons of Abraham - if so, are we not all sons (and daughters I assume) of Adam, or Noah - or any ancestor with which we have a common link? Or do some of you believe Abraham or Noah are God? I know you know what I'm getting at, so don't bother with going 'round the houses - is not the phrase "son of..." or "Father of ..." common ones, that do not mean BY thought Adam is God? (Annoyingly a put together a longer post yesterday, but just kept getting an error message when trying to send it!)   godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.201 Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 11:54 am:        joesdad,I am so sorry that you had problems sending your longer post. Are you upset again because we "didn't wait for you"? I don't know about anyone else, but you are not the person I would choose to answer deep questions about mormonism as you just can't show references to your beliefs. So it is apparent you are accepting what someone else has told you.   godchild (godchild)