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the_general (the_general)
New member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.5.83
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 1:55 pm: | 
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I thought we might want to start a new thread to discuss doctrinal issues.
I think that their views on baptism and covenant are noteworthy.At HH in order to be baptized you must complete a dicipleship period through which you are thoroughly indoctrinated with the concept of authority and submission and that baptism is a covenant commitment to the local fellowship and the authority of Jesus in the flesh(as part of the indoctrination you are taught that Jesus in the flesh is the leadership). At the time of your baptism you must commit yourself to total submission to the leadership and "patterns" of HH for the rest of your life. They teach that baptism is a vow to the leadership and the group as a whole like marriage and that it binds you to them forever. So leaving them is the same as divorcing God. It is breaking your covenant commitment to Jesus and His authority in the flesh.
(Message edited by the_general on April 25, 2005) |
real_truth (real_truth)
Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 61
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 167.127.163.203
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 2:39 pm: |
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Please submit quotes from them or their leadership stating these doctrines. I hardly think that ex-members are qualified to give a rendition of their doctrines in their own words, since it is difficult to be objective. So please submit it in quotation marks. A fair challenge, I feel.} |
hispromise (hispromise)
New member
Username: hispromise
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 8:54 pm: |
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General,
Can you give scriptures HH would use to lead people to believe that they are Christ come in the Flesh and how they have taken that scripture and twisted it to convince folks that it is true. As for real-truth he says that anyone from HH could not tell us about doctrine and be objective, WHAT!!! You are in a place for years and you don't think people know what their own church doctrine was, how ridiculous. I have seen to much consistency on this board to think that these posting could not be fair. Also, look how easy it was for general to give his doctrinal beliefs, very easy.... why is is so hard for HH???? Why so secret???? |
the_general (the_general)
New member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.102.179
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 9:46 pm: |
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There are many complicated teachings that lead to this but I will try to give some basics.1st John4:2,3 "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God." Somewhere HH found a translation that says "continues to come in the flesh","come in the flesh" it was explained to us meant, continues to come in those who are anointed by God directly to lead the body. They then go on to John4:6 " We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us." They also tie these Scriptures and this Idea to John 17:3" Now this is eternal life: that they may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." They say that since God is one, then "Jesus Christ whom you have sent" is referring to Jesus who is continuing to be sent in the flesh to have leadership in the church. This is very brief but gives a little bit of the idea.
(Message edited by the_general on April 25, 2005) |
waawaa (waawaa)
New member
Username: waawaa
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.112.0.204
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:07 pm: |
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hey general I am the comander and chief and you are fired  |
the_general (the_general)
New member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.102.179
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:11 pm: |
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Thank you waawaa,I've gotten a kick out of your posts |
waawaa (waawaa)
New member
Username: waawaa
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.112.0.204
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:13 pm: |
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truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
New member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:22 pm: |
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In the HH answer book, "Questions visitors ask" on page 191 the Question is,
"Do you have any literature or statement of faith that explains your doctrinal positions?"
One author says,
" Yes, we have thousands of pages for those who chose to walk in our course."
Then goes on to say the reason they don't have a statement of faith is because,
"they lend themselves to substituting the formula of doctrinal checklists for genuine relationship with God or those whom God would join an individual soul to. Jesus said it would be by fruit that people would recognize His disciples."
Another author says,
"We've always taken the position that our living testimony ---- our families, our children and our love one for another --- is our statement of faith, our living epistles read and known of all men."
So here we see that as an outsider, you can't even have their literature, unless you chose to walk their course. You must already be a part before you can have any of their literature. And even then only if "your ready."
Another author says,
We have written extensively on many topics, including those doctrinal issues essential to salvation. We have found that published "statements of faith" only serve to encourage labeling and focusing on differences rather than looking for beliefs we hold or share in common on which we can build a relationship in the "unity of the spirit."
They will not write a statement of faith, because they tried one time and it was so controversial and so clearly showed their true beliefs that they now claim it doesn't exist. Thus they have found, "It only leads to labeling."
So they want their families to be their statement of faith, and their fruit to be their proof of disciples of Christ.
We are that testimony.
On page 390 the question is posed,
"What do you teach about baptism?"
In a nutshell the answer is, "We vow to Jesus, as in a wedding that we will take on his nature and die to our fallen nature. We pledge to lose our fallen identity into Christ's and commit to walk in abiding awareness of our Lord."
However in the position paper on "Communion and Discerning of the Body" on page 1,it says,
Do we still remember the Lord's death, a death into which we pledged ourselves in baptism? Do we still discern this Body, (1Cor.11:29,Mark14:22-24) (now) the sacrificial corporate Body of his humanity that must be offered up unto the Lord and of which we form a part?
On page 2 they say it again,
"Confessing this discernment of his authority in the Body goes far in realizing our confession of Him as Lord. In short, do we still see the true nature of that Body in whose flesh He continues to come (2John 7) and to which we originally committed at baptism."
I thought this was a great example of not only how the meaning of HH baptism broadens after committing, but also of their view of Christ,
" Now the corporate Body of his humanity." |
rbeechner (rbeechner)
New member
Username: rbeechner
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 65.150.15.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:32 am: |
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HisPromise, here are some quotes from “By What Authority,” a paper written by the founder of Homestead Heritage that deals with the group’s belief that “Christ comes in human flesh” through the authority of their leaders.
This is from page 2 of the document:
“Listen to His [Jesus’] words, then as recorded in John 5: ‘Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the son.’ That’s interesting, isn’t it? Especially in light of the fact that that God also calls us His sons….Yes, it’s remarkable that Jesus said that the Father…has deposited this judgment in His sonship, in those who have been born of the spirit of sonship, ‘born from above.’”
Jesus says what? According to the author, when Jesus says that God gives all judgment to the Son, He really means to His sons, that is, to mortal men who have been “born of the spirit of sonship,” or as it was interpreted during my years at HH, to the leaders of HH. All judgment. Read the scripture and the passage for yourself, HisPromise. Is that really the message Jesus is declaring in John 5? I don't believe it is. Not anymore. I believe the author of "By What Authority" makes a quantum leap here, distorting the Scripture by blurring the distinction between our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as the Son of God and mortal men as sons of God and setting the stage for a dangerous deviation from the gospel.
He continues: “Jesus went on to clarify that if we don’t honor the humanity in which the Spirit has come, then we won’t honor the Spirit of God Himself: ‘He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent Him.'”
Notice his interpretation of John 5:23: he now takes for granted that you--the reader-- have accepted his position that the Son--Jesus Himself--is equivalent to God's "sonship," these men, or, as he puts it here, “the humanity in which the Spirit has come.” He speaks of them interchangeably.
In John 5:25 Jesus says:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”
This is the author’s interpretation of the scripture, also quoted from page 2 of "By What Authority":
“So we must ‘hear the voice of the son of God’ to be raised on the last day, but also remember that He said they who ‘listen to us’ (1 John 4: 1-6) will listen to Him…and, those who don’t hear us will not hear His voice.”
Read the statement carefully, HisPromise, and consider the implications. We must hear the voice of the Son of God to be raised on the last day, he says, but only those who 'listen to us' will hear His voice. He stops there, but what is he implying?
From page 8:
“The Spirit from God must acknowledge that God comes down ‘from above’ and puts his authority, puts His Word, puts Himself in human flesh. If you can truly acknowledge that, then the Spirit that speaks from you is from God; and if you can’t do that, your spirit, John says, is antichrist.”
Accept the authority and word of "us," as Christ Himself come in human flesh, or admit your spirit is antichrist.
And:
“Who are you submitted to--those who speak from the viewpoint of the world…those who come in their own name, their own authority, or those who speak with an authority from above? Notice that the test is whether they will confess that Jesus Christ, the Lord who ‘is the Spirit,’ has ‘come in human flesh’; and this means that they will ‘listen to us.”
In my years at HH, the doctrine of "Jesus come in human flesh" was always used in terms of authority and submission. It was used as a tool to justify the will of the leaders and to silence dissent. As I said, I believe it represents a dangerous distortion of the gospel.
Luke 21:8 And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them. |
hispromise (hispromise)
New member
Username: hispromise
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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WOW!! Both what rbeechner and truth hunter have posted is eye opening. No wonder they would not give us any literature when we visited. No wonder Real-truth made a big deal about not making copies of their doctrine or circulating them without calling Homestead first??? Now I know why they made us feel like we couldn't understand certain things. You cannot present this stuff to someone new, it would expose their agenda immediately. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 118
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 167.127.163.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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You mistake my intents. you must understand, I have read stacks of their literature, and still have much of it. I disagree with large parts of it. I am simply trying to continuously point out how wrong and unfair and ungodly and mean and vindictive much of this behavior is. I feel HH is not being given a fair shake here, by being smeared and slandered, instead of dealt with as family, which they are, for any possible error. } |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
New member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.36
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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you can feel till your heart's content. You still haven't dealt with the truth about Matthew 18 in my other posting, which you said you would. Feelings do not mix well with eternal Doctrine. Feelings don't change history either, so don't expect the feelings of people to change simply because you don't like their recitation of personal history experienced as members of God's family. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 122
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 167.127.163.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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CORRECTION, GO VIEW THE MAIN THREAD. I DEALT WITH IT. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
New member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 11
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.36
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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You haven't dealt with the points I made, which were new points. Every one on this forum knows you haven't dealt with them. If you wish to convince them of anything regarding truth, address them. You have not addressed them specifically. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 167.127.163.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 6:26 pm: |
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Indeed I did. Go re-read the post I placed second to last on the main thread. You must have either missed it, or not read it carefully. I certainly did address your " new " points in vivid detail. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
New member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.36
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |
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Lets get back to doctrine in this thread. And why not get right to the point.Would somone like to elaborate a little more on the Leadership of HH considering themselves to be Christ in the Flesh?
Please, if at all possible, try to use quotes from the official literature during the course of your commentary about the activities related to these serious claims made by mere brothers in Christ. Maybe some of the questions which are left unanswered by HH will be answered here and assist some soul in making an informed decision. |
hispromise (hispromise)
New member
Username: hispromise
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
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Fair Shake??? They were given every opportunity for months and months to give "their side" of their story. They were given a fair shake in our situation and many others who have visited. They chose to keep silent like they are doing now. Again, if you are claiming you are a church of Christ and as someone said "they think they have a greater light" then why not show that light to all the world as the gospel has been shown????? I am not playing any man's game of "work your way up a ladder for salvation" This is absurd and it is wrong!!!! They have had fair shakes in their stories that have been published and this posting board is a "fair shake" to those who disagree. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 160
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.203
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 2:17 am: |
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Truth Buyer, you tried to dismantle the solid case I made for why Matt 18 condemns your behavior here in Factnet. You had an argument, and gleefully demanded that I answer it, long after I had, and you ignored or missed it ( same thing ). But now, you just plow on as if it never happened. This is just another case in point where the truth is laid out to you, clearly in scripture, and you jest keep on trucking with some other point, once the pitiful one you make is laid to rest. Man, go to the main board and deal with my answer, or be known by all as the coward I am beginning to think you are. } |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Junior Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.32
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
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realtruth,
My, My, you young bucks surely get bent out of shape if something doesn't happen immediately. Whatever happened to "in your patience posess ye your souls"? Or is it that you miss being picked on? You actually miss me!?
Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept. Sometimes making a point demands that one be thorough in the process. You have no choice but to be patient. And I hardly ever "josh" a man about something as serious as Truth. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 164
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 167.127.163.203
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 3:00 pm: |
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My apologies. |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 10
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.188.117.136
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:28 pm: |
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One important issue that I think is key is our understanding of the nature of God's love.This is a tall order but is worth pursuing.
To my way of thinking it is the most important thing any of us could talk about.
In Homestead Heritage the literature that they are producing is viewed as the revelation of the Word of God.The "spectacles" if you will, through which we are to look in order to come to a deeper understanding of His Word.
In their writings they state that they do not believe that God's love is unconditional.I did not believe this either while I was there.Since we left I have begun to examine just exactly I believe and am seeing that there are alot of things that I thought I believed.I thought that I had answers for almost everything.Besides,if I did'nt know the answer someone surely did!
If you say that His love is not unconditional then it is conditional.If it is conditional then what are the conditions?and who gets to say what they are?Who gets to say where God's Love begins and ends?
The bible says that God is Love.Also, that while
we were yet sinners Jesus died for us.His very nature is Love and He cannot change!
He did not die on the cross because we were so worth it as some seem to think.He did it because He is love and not because we are that lovable.
Does God stop loving you when you sin? Or does God not love sinners? Why did He die for us in the first place?
Even if someone refuses to have a relationship with Him and makes Hell his eternal home does God
cease to love that person?
HH teaches that God says "I love those who love me"(Prov.-8:17)
Also, in explaining the passage in John-14:21-24 "Whoever has my commands and obeys them,he is the one who loves me.He who loves me will be loved by my Father,and I too will love him and show myself to Him.Then judas(not Iscariot) said but,Lord why do you intend to show Yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus replied,"If anyone loves Me,he will obey My teaching.My Father will love him,and We will come to him and make Our home with him.He who does not love Me will not obey My teaching.These words you hear are not my own but belong to the Father who sent Me."
HH literature states"How could Jesus' words be plainer?If we do not keep His words,"obey"His "teaching" then we do not love Him and will not be "loved by the Father".If we do
not love Him,how could we be in relationship with Him,how can we "know" Him in the biblical sense,and how could we possibly have eternal life,how could we be "saved"(John 17:3)? Jesus' words directly contradict the assertion of unconditional love." Then it goes on to say that"the very conditionality of His love is, in fact, our greatest hope;that if we conform to His conditions,if we obey Him, we can be conformed to the image of His Son, we can be saved from our own fallen human nature."(taken from-The Order of Perfection {Authority and submission in the Body of Christ}page 181[proof copy])
The gospel is the "Good news".It is not about what we can do for God it is about what He did for us! And everything flows out of that realization.
In Matthew 5:46-47 Jesus says" If you love them which love you , what reward have ye? do not even the publicans do the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others do not even the publicans do the same?"
Ephesians-2:4-10 says "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
even when we were dead in sins,hath quickened us together with Christ,( by grace ye are saved)and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God:not of works, lest any man should boast.For we are His workmanship,created in Christ Jesus unto good works."
In the eyes of HH when I separated myself from them I separated myself from God. So this means I also am separated from the Love of Christ.
But, I know that nothing shall separate me from His great love wherewith He loved me.
His love's conditionality is not my greatest hope.My hope is in His mercy.My hope is in his blood shed for me.
My hope is in God Himself that he is Good and not an austere master,that God's mercy will triumph over judgement. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 54
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.44
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:53 pm: |
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recovering pharisee,
It sounds as if you are recovering very nicely. However, I believe you are entering into the one area which is most feared by HH leadership, the area concerning their true teaching of Salvation. Though other issues may diminish their esteem before the world, this is the one issue which will diminish their esteem before the Body of Christ.
I'm glad for your recovery. Love, peace, grace, mercy, acceptance, joy , truth, etc. are great healers, are they not? |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 186
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 172.199.153.215
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 2:14 am: |
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Can a man rape, pillage, fornicate, drink, cuss, hate, kill, and die in his unrepented sins, and go to heaven?} |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 57
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.86
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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realtruth,m
Do you expect us to carry on a dialogue of Doctrine with one who considers such a discussion on this forum to be sin of the greatest magnitude. Do we on this forum not also carry the burden of responsibility for our professed brothers and sisters in Christ. Rom. 14:14b, "...but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Rom 14"13b, "...but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbligblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."
So, I'll refrain from engaging your question for now. |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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Wow ! that is quite a busy man.
But, first things first.The question was what is the nature of God's love.
Is this idea of unconditional love a construct of the mind of Man or does it describe the kind of love God has for us. |
hater101 (hater101)
New member
Username: hater101
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.112.0.204
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
|
 |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 61
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.54
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 8:09 pm: |
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recovering pharisee,
I'm not sure if your question was for anyone to address, so I'll address it briefly.
God's Love is unconditional in the sense that God loves all mankind, regardless of their condition before Him. It is conditional in the sense that, in order to access that Love (God), a person must meet the conditions established by God. Those conditions just happen to be perfection/righteousness. Unable to meet those conditional demands, man must look to the only one who has met those demands, Jesus Christ, in order to access God and His Love. Repentance and faith in the perfection provided for us through Christ's life, death and resurrection bring us into a position of the grace of God's love. With the enabling of the Holy Spirit, man can begin to do what was impossible before. The perfection/righteousness of Christ is then worked out through us in our life. (Rom. 8:4 That the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.)
So, God unconditionally receives all who accept the conditions met only by Christ. |
waawaa (waawaa)
Junior Member
Username: waawaa
Post Number: 48
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.112.0.204
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 2:01 am: |
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sorry every body for my foul words. |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 95
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.56
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:34 pm: |
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Would somone care to elaborate on the three stages of HH membership, Situational, Transitional, and Constitutional and how they relate to overall life within HH? |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 258
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 167.127.163.141
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:39 pm: |
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TRUTH BUYER, please stop refusing to answer my rebuttal of your errors regarding Matthew 18, since you insinuated that you would answer it. It yet awaits your elequant hand. Answer, already, or the smallest amount of respect that your friends might yet have for you is going to disappear. It awaits you under the thread " Matt 18 revisited! " |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 96
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.82.193.56
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:48 pm: |
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realtruth,
Who said I wasn't going to answer your rebuttal? I said I would, but I didn't say when? In the meantime, you could visit the CONFESSION thread and post a confession worthy of the Eternal Godhead. Also, in the meantime, wait! |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 261
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 167.127.163.141
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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TRUTH BUYER, please stop avoiding the thread about your lies regarding the vandelism, and deliberate ommisions for the purpose of twisting the truth. I expect your apology, seeing as you are so sure of your own sincerity... |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.188.117.136
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 6:14 pm: |
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truthbuyers answer to my question about Love seems like a balanced view to me.
Who else thinks so?
Since there have been zero comments about it in several days I figure we all pretty much agree that it is a well presented view.
I can assure you that the leaders @ HH do not think so.
Quote -"To be sure,the Scripture tells us that God's long-suffering is our salvation,and the prophet Hosea and others give us an image of God's patience and the magnitude of His love.
Yet, never is that love portrayed as unconditional." (The Order of Perfection book two-proof copy)
Also, I have in no way presented a case for "eternal security" by my posts.I am simply trying to take one thing at a time . |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.188.117.136
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
|
Regarding the situational,transitional and constitutional question:Here are some quotes from
A brief Overview for New Patterns for Relationships and our first communion.(copyright 1991 Truth Forum)
"The new testament Temple,then, as the Old Testament's has a prescribed way of access and entrance. In the Temple,believers gained increasing access to the immediate presence of God through a series of courts.Whereas only once every year on behalf of all the people could the high priest enter the Holy of Holies,the immediate presence of God,our Messiah has made immediate access available to all by ripping open the veil that prevented us from entering the most Holy place.This is the meaning of the New Covenant: as Jeremiah 31 declares,that now we shall all know Yahweh,we shall all enter into direct and immediate relationship with Him.Yet even while this very great distinction exists between the Old and New Testaments,we still must follow God's prescribed path in order to come into this much greater relationship with God"
"These three courts of God's Temple relate to a believers growth toward full communion with God's presence."
"God has shown us that we pass through three general levels of growth(each of which themselves have three levels) comparable to the three levels of the Temple.John wrote to the little children,to the young menand finally to the fathers(1John2:12-14),and these levels of growth correspond to what we term the situational,transitional and constitutional levels of relationship to the Body of Christ."
"These levels of sacrifice correspond to the ascending level of participation in the Body...."
"We see then that discipleship can be seen to ascend through three general levels toward the high mark of our calling.To repeat,to pass into the Old Testament Temple, one had to move through varioud courts,the outer court, the inner court and then the inner most Holy place of the Temple itself;and in the New Testament as well,we must pass through three main levels on our way to total and complete oneness with God:the situational,transitional and constitutional levels of relationship.The situational level corresponds to the outer court;the transitional to the inner court;the constitutional to the place in which we stand as pillars in the Temple of our God(Rev.3:12). Revelation says that ultimately the outer court has no permanent place in the kingdom of God(Rev.11:2)It is situational,just as a slave who has no permanent place in the family(John8:35)Again,however,everyone in this outer court who walks in faith will find the obedience that comes from faith(Rom.1:4)They will move into levels of sonship,and a son abides forever(John8:35) This sonship is imputed to them if they continue to walk in all the light they have.
Each of these above levels in turn also further divides into situational,transitional and constitutional stages that allow a person to grow in mastery of each larger level.We move at first from a situational stage on a situational level to the transitional stage on the situational level,then, all the way through to the eventual goal of standing constitutionally on the constitutional level."
Our first communion will serve to confirm people's completion of the situational level and their new relationship to the Body on the situational stage of the transitional level of membership in Koinonia Communities.
I have tried to be fair in presenting this info. not wanting to infringe any copy right laws however I want to give enough of a passage to give context so that their actual meaning can be understood.
I will let everyone who reads this draw their own conclusions and welcome HH to clarify anything that is not clear or if this is not what they believe. |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:02 am: |
|
[Quote "Jesus says what? According to the author, when Jesus says that God gives all judgment to the Son, He really means to His sons"]
The problem with this sort of approach is that it makes the typical proof-text error, in fact, the quote is not even the entire sentence so without the full thought there can be no logical understanding of the passage. The complete sentence is:
John 5:22-23, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father."
As can be readily seen the entire sentence has a completely different meaning that interprets itself quite nicely. |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:06 am: |
|
Matthew 28:18, "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
That hardly leaves any room for anyone else having ANY power to do ANYthing including judging. |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:16 am: |
|
[Quote "he now takes for granted that you--the reader-- have accepted his position that the Son--Jesus Himself--is equivalent to God's "sonship," these men, or, as he puts it here, “the humanity in which the Spirit has come.” He speaks of them interchangeably.]
Again, trying to interpret half a thought can only lead to confusing misinterpretation. It would appear the attempt is to suggest equality by virtue of brotherhood. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:24 am: |
|
[Quote "In their writings they state that they do not believe that God's love is unconditional."]
God's love IS unconditional; but it is not without its limits. |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 16
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.188.117.136
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
|
In my post above I quoted from Heritage Min. literature about the levels of growth disciples pass through in their fellowship. In that same document a few paragraphs later I read- "Jesus said that only a slave does not know his masters business(John 15:15),and Paul declares that only those who are led by the Spirit, have knowledge of the mind of Christ(1 Cor. 2:10-16),have matured,that is, as sons of God(Rom. 8:14). This is why Paul could describe the child as a slave until the time appointed by the Father for him to come to his inheritance of sonship(Gal.4:1-2). The first level of discipleship,the situational, corresponds to this slave stage that every son passes through; he doesn't understand the will of God but rather learns the most basic lessons of submitting to authority."
First of all, we become the sons of God through faith in what Jesus did for us.
We are bought with His blood.When we believe in the gospel we move from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of light.We are sons! God then begins to disciple us according to His good pleasure.He leads His sons by His Spirit.And we learn to submit to the authority of the Spirit.
They interpret Gal. 4:1-2 as meaning that at some point in the future after the prescribed course of discipleship then they will come into their inheritance as sons.
This is not what Paul is saying.Here is the passage:Galatians 4-
1. "Now I say,as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything.
2. but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
3. So also we,while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
4. But when the fulness of the time came,
God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5. in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might recieve the adoption as }sons.And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts,crying,"Abba! Father!"THEREFORE YOU ARE NO LONGER A SLAVE, BUT A SON;AND IF A SON,THEN AN HEIR THROUGH GOD.
Before we are born again we are held in bondage to the things of this world.
After we are born again we are translated into the kingdom of His dear Son!
We become sons of the Kingdom.Praise God!.
1 John 3:1 -Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us,that we should be called the sons of God.... |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 19
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 7:34 pm: |
|
It is amazing to me that this thread is so dormant.I would have thought that it would be the most important.
There are certain ideas or teachings that I questioned which led me to leave this "church"
So far,in different ways and by different folks we have discussed,at least briefly,almost
all of them.I list them here as I understand them. I am no scholar or Theologian,
*the Covenant with a local body
*the situational,transitional and constitutional levels of discipleship
*Jesus continuing to come in "human nature"
*submission to authority(which is a legitimate teaching carried to an absurd degree)
*I love those who love me
*Majoring on the minors-works of the flesh,dress,food,activities,etc,ad nauseum
Lastly, the notion that children are not even able to be born again.They believe that children
are not aware of themselves enough to have a true consciousness of sin.
When you reach a certain age and can be baptized by water immersion and in the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in tongues and can recognize spiritual authority and covenant to that "expression" of the Body then you can be born again.Usually this is about 18 yrs. but can be sooner in some cases.
Even when adults come to this place of revelation
they are not considered "saved" or born again until they come to Homestead Heritage.
As I was told by the founding elder when I told him I thought I had found my place(meaning their church)He said "If you don't know your place you are lost.
There was a dream shared by his wife that "there would be babies who would be born with teeth" in other words these people would be ready to eat the food that was given them after they were birthed into the kingdom (their prior walk with God notwithstanding)
There are people that are there right now that came to God as little children.But when they came to HH everything is re-worked to fit the "model"
Let me ask you- could you have come to God under the kind of teaching you now espouse?
Also,in the oft quoted Matt. 18 passage Jesus says
"whoever causes one of these little oneswho believe in me to stumble,it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck,and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea,"
It can be argued that Jesus was talking about Immature christians referring to the little ones but is that all He is saying here?
The word in the King Jimmy for "little child" means a childling,that is,(properly)an infant,or (by extension)a half grown boy or girl.
This is what comes of knowing everything.When someone goes to Heaven, when they are borned again,what they should wear,what to say, what to think,what is going on in their heart and mind even knowing your heart better than you know it yourself.
Paul said"The Lord knows those who are His"
the new birth is brought about by the Spirit
whether old, young or in between. |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.19
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
|
The principle doctrines of Christianity are spelled out clearly in the four Gospel books of the New Testament. (Who is Jesus? What is the Gospel? And how do we relate with God?) Obviously, Paul was also concerned about doctrines that brought Christians under bondage or drew them away from the gospel towards men. The book of Galatians shows us the concern. Jesus too was concerned about the doctrines of men and he wasn't wishy washy when He confronted those who were responsible.
Being a woman I have a tendency to be soft. I love the people of HH, and I know it hurts to have the doctrines of our church critiqued. Yet, as a Christian who loves them, I feel compelled to ask them to at least look again at the Bible itself and what it has to say about the Gospel and salvation. If Jesus would die to accomplish this for us, certainly we don't want to pollute it by adding to it, or twisting it.
I would like to ask some questions that might cause them to look again at what they believe personally. My hope is that they haven't personally given up their first Love and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I always hold on to hope, (hoping for the best.) I think, "Maybe they are enamored with the life style and the fellowship of the brothers and sisters don't even realize themselves just what HH believes. Maybe they haven't been exposed too much of the literature yet, or they haven't given the literature much weight.” It isn't easy to get through the many pages and thousands of words. If you don't understand what they wrote, then you are made to feel stupid or rebellious. (Like the "Emperor’s new clothes" the problem is made out to be the individual who can't see them.) Believe me, the problem is not the reader.
Please read this with a soft tone. I am asking honest questions. I don't mean to be irritating or accusing. Please pray and ask God to help you deal with them and not "doubt cast" them away.
********************
How many HH members have actually reached "Sonship"? How many are Constitutional? When I asked that back in 1998 I was told by my group leader that two, maybe three people had reached that level; BA, SY and maybe HW. Everyone else is either a slave of God, (and can not even know God's will,) or a friend of God; not a Son.
From my understanding of the Gospel we are Sons of God when we believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Only Begotten Son of God, and that He became flesh and was the perfect sacrifice that redeemed us from or sin. We must believe it in our hearts and confess it with our mouths. (When will we know we are the sons of God? When we truly believe in our hearts, not just our minds, it will be manifested in our lives as the Spirit of God in us works in us to do His will. We will see fruit produced in our lives by the Spirit. Our love and devotion to the One who first loved us and gave His life to redeem us motivates us to worship Him with all we are. If we fail or fumble, (and we all will,) we have an advocate, Jesus, who stands at the right hand of the Father. Because we Love Him who gave us unmerited grace and salvation, we use that grace to crucify the lusts of the flesh and live in a way that would bring Glory and others to Him. We love others with the Love of God and we express that love in a tangible way. We act this way because we ARE the Sons of God; not so we might BECOME the Sons of God if we do.)
As I understand HH doctrine, they don't believe Jesus' blood sacrifice has the power to redeem us completely; that so much more must be accomplished, (specifically going through the 3 levels with each of the levels 3 levels all within a covenant Body formed by God, like HH.) Is what we must believe and do spelled out in volumes written by BA because God’s Gospel because it can not be understood by us as it is written in the New Testament?
If HH members truly do not accept or believe the Gospel, (as proclaimed in the New Testament as so simple that it is a stumbling block to the wise,) then are they lost? Help me out here! Am I off in my understanding? Can we reject the Gospel of the New Testament and still receive salvation?
Would God, after giving the Gospel to His disciples, have us wait until BA came along almost 2000 years later to interpret it for us and add to it before giving us the complete gospel? Why doesn't the Bible say, "You believe in Jesus and His sacrifice, now make a covenant with a local congregation, believe and obey what they tell you for the rest of your life. If you succeed in this it will be finished: You will then be a Son of God, Joint heirs with Jesus.”???? It takes books and books with much weaving, (and in my opinion twisting of scripture,) to take what is plain in the New Testament to get to the conclusion HH would have us reach.
Was part of the New Testament still lost; Do we still need men like priests, (though they do not call themselves priests,) to tell us God’s will because we will fool ourselves and “hear” only what we want if we try obey God directly? Are we to be protected by them from any direct contact with the world or even God Himself; them as a covering between God and man? Was that left out of the original scripture to be revealed today? After all, according to HH teachings our hearts are desperately wicked and we will hear from God what we choose. If it is true that when we think we can know God’s will ourselves through reading the Word, praying, and the direct leading of the Holy Spirit, we are trying to be our own Gods; why isn’t it true when the HH leader does the same thing? Would they never deceive themselves the way we would? So must we and can we trust them?
What prevents these men from fooling themselves? Is it because they have reached the “Constitution Level”? Is it because they claim to be Jesus come in the flesh? Does God have to protect them from self-delusion just because they love Him and you are depending on them? How will you know if or when they are lead astray if even questioning or criticizing them is considered wrong? (If is wrong to question their teachings, why was it noble to question Paul’s?)
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11)
Do you believe it is right to shun people who have left? Do you believe it is right to purposely mislead visitors by answering questions in a way that will lead them to think one thing, when the truth is another?
If Beverly McCord asks to come to a Sunday meeting so she can see for herself what one these closed meetings are like, and then the meeting is carefully orchestrated to be what she would find acceptable, (even if it is totally different then a normal Sunday meeting,) it is alright with Jesus who is “The Truth.”
If a visitors asks if the young people are free to go to college, and you answer, “We try to encourage our young people to make use of the many apprenticeship programs we have, but when they are 18 or older, they have the freedom to go to college if they wish.” Is that telling the truth or a lie? Now you know that the visitor already knows they have the freedom as Americans to decide for themselves once they turn 18. You know what they are really asking is will they be able to do it with the churches permission and blessing. You also know that the young person will not have the blessing of HH, and most likely he will not be able to remain apart of HH if he chooses to go to college, but you have lead them to think the opposite.
When people ask if HH has one main leader and you answer them saying, "We have a plurality of elders." Have you answered their question? You have not said yes or no. You know that even though there is more than one elder in HH they are subject to BA who is the Apostle. You have deceived them by not answering their question and allowing them to think you have. Is this deception moral?
Is it right for a family in HH to shun their son and his new wife because he left after he was baptized and is now a “covenant breaker” and an “apostate?”
A father can work all day making a living for his family and then work nights and weekends for the church, (weeks on end,) and not be home enough to develop or at least maintain the close relationship he needs with his children. Then in the matter of a few free minutes he expects to be able to effectively minister to his teenager. Why, because if he is doing the will of God? Who said it is the will of God? Does God have to make it possible? Can you do these things with a clear conscience? Hasn’t your conscience been pricked?
If you do these things with a clear conscience I want to lovingly set off an alarm.
When your conscience is pricked by the Holy Spirit you know there is something wrong. If you have alienated or seared the conscience God has given you and replaced it by the approval of men, even men of God, how will the Holy Spirit warn you?
The men who are teaching you to do these things, the very things that should be pricking your conscience, are the same men who have given you your “truth” about salvation and minister in almost every detail of your life as if they were God Himself.
Have become your covering; a veil between you and God?
In my opinion, men are shaming their own heads; covering them. With their own heads covered they are not covering their families. By NOT standing under the direct leading and discipline of the Holy Spirit, they can not be warned by the Spirit when something is wrong. They can unknowingly lead their family astray and support a different gospel. How will they lead their children to Jesus when they don’t even stand in direct relationship to Him? Are they leading them to be followers of men or God?
Most important: Are you a Son of God? When will you be a Son of God? How will you know when you are? How do you even become a Son of God?
If I asked you to share with me the Gospel of salvation, will it be simple? If it is, where did you learn it? Have you shared it with your children straight from the Bible? When was the last time you heard it proclaimed from the pulpit or shared by an elder? How many of you even know what your own church teaches about salvation?
Did you know God before you came to HH? JA testified during a Friday night meeting about how God had saved him before he came to the fellowship and he was strongly rebuked by DB in front of the entire group for claiming such a thing. Ask him. Can he say now with a clear conscience that God had not saved him according to his original testimony? Can he say he was not a son of God? Can you say it?
Who will save you? Who have you put your trust in? Who have you put your faith in? Who is your God?
Respectfully in love,
ForeverHis
(Message edited by foreverhis on July 07, 2005) |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.30
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 1:44 am: |
|
Because there is now such a long list of responses on the first thread about HH it is easy to over look the original post/thread concerning HH. Since it deal with doctrines of HH I want too add a link to that original thread here. Be sure to let your browser fully finish loading.
The first thread:
http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=141314#POST141314
(Message edited by foreverhis on July 09, 2005) |
the_general (the_general)
Junior Member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.5.167
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
|
The sad thing is that when people go out to HH and visit,HH has such a show and such a good front that people are not always able to see the truth of what HH is really all about.I think that people, especially Christians, have a very hard time believing that a nice quaint place with such polite and sincere people would deliberately mislead people and misrepresent who they are and what the believe.People are just unwilling to believe that "other christians" would lie so much.The members mislead the public and lie and don't even believe that they are really lieing.That may be hard for some readers to understand but those who have been there know what I am talking about.I walked the walk and talked the talk myself and only when I laid in bed at night or when a visitor asked so many pointed questions that I had to really dig deep for answers did I realize that I was decieving people and that there was something very wrong about the fellowship and what I was doing.If any of you HH members are reading this I bet you have felt that nagging knawing feeling in the pit of your stomach about HH and about the deception you have to maintain to cover the fellowship.Think about it.After the fair, the slide shows and the necesity of talking to a lot of visitors,You know that something is wrong.Listen to that voice, it's not doubt.It's truth breaking through. |
is_this_true (is_this_true)
New member
Username: is_this_true
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 207.145.37.164
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 1:15 am: |
|
I have just a few questions that anyone is free to answer, but I heard through the grape vine that while, the members in non leadership positions in Homestead Heritage are taught to follow the supposed revelations of a "God given dream" revealed unto Blair Adams of a simple self sustaining life-style, and schooling their own children. (A way of living that they believe will bring them closer to each other, which is from my understanding the path that leads to salvation through relationships with those that you are in submission to). Yet is it not true that the Blair Adams family no longer tend their own garden because they believe that they are the priests and not fit for labor and toil, but set apart for the work of ministry? A holy priesthood that requires it's followers not only to tithe 20% of thier income but also of their gardens? Is it not also true that the remaining Adams children are no longer schooled by their mother but by one or two other women?
If this is true then why isn't the Adam's family following the "God given patters", laid out for the true people of God? Is this not a double standard ? Also wouldn't this mean they were above the guidlines for salvation,and if so then what does that really make them? if they have no need to be under submission to anyone, yet everyone is submitted to them to find salvation, does this not make them Gods? I thought that we as children of God were no longer in need of a man or priest to sand and mediate for us, I thought that that was the reason Jesus died so that he could stand and mediate for us before the throne of God. I thought he sent His Spirit to lead and guide us.
If Homestead Heritage is right, then it seems to me that Christ died in vain. |
no_doubt (no_doubt)
New member
Username: no_doubt
Post Number: 7
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 11:31 am: |
|
Yes sadly it is true. While I was still in HH we got calls all the time to help in the Adams gardens and I watched while about 20 young men double dug and prepared the Adams garden while the Adams boys walked their dogs. When I asked why this happened I was told it was because they were of the priesthood and and were supposed to be set aside for the ministry. Also it is true the remaining Adams children are schooled by a single lady that lives down the road from them. They also believe that if you submit to their rules or patterns as they call them you can make it to heaven so in essence for them Christ did die in vain. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 275
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.68.15.79
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 1:09 pm: |
|
I am amazed to come back here months later and find you guys still whining and moaning. Please, go make a life and live it. It is much more enjoyable than this, believe me. God doesn't want you to sit around whining the rest of your life, no matter what has supposedly happened. Oh, and also, give me a break. Have you never heard of volunteering to help the ministry's family's ? You are ludicrous. |
just_curious (just_curious)
Advanced Member
Username: just_curious
Post Number: 662
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.226.65.183
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
|
Two months, to be exact, real_truth. Did it seem a lot longer? FACTNet kind of gets into your blood, doesn't it? Guess you have a bunch of reading to catch up on! 
BTW, I have no problem with people pitching in to help others -- but I am curious as to what the ones being helped are doing. HH has become quite a fascinating place in my mind. |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 73
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 7:17 pm: |
|
I agree with Real_truth, God has no need for his children to sit around whining about past experiences and supposed "done me wrongs". I think those of you indulging in such practises should be ashamed of yourselves. When this board was started you claimed it was with the sole reason to help hurting and abused people. Someone please tell me how the above posts are "helping" anyone! I fail to see how making personal attacks on a family is helping anyone. If any of you truly wanted to help others you would encourage them to take personal responsibility for their deeds. Instead, you encourage these hurting souls to mire themselves even deeper in their cesspools of self pity. That is revolting and incredibly sad. Many of you speak of how "abusive" HH was to you, yet now you are the ones doing the abusing. Using you equation, you are like dogs returning to their vomit.
No_doubt, you fail to mention that the ones helping out with garden chores volunteered their time. You make it seem as if the family you have attacked forced members and children to till and toil in their personal garden. You know that is misleading and I shouldn't have to remind you of that. About the "priesthood" bit, I find that reprehensible. You know better than to say such nonsense.
Homestead has never taught that by following their "patterns" alone, one can earn the right to entry into heaven. This is one more example of twisting the truth to fit one's agenda. Maybe some of you who believe such things about HH are in reality simply trying to salve your consciences, just a thought.
Also, I know my family never gave 20% of their garden to the church. Even though my dad is a leader maybe he never heard of that requirement. If others did give a set amount away then where did it all go? Just a score of families giving that much produce to the church sounds like alot of squash to me... Maybe they were feeding the poor with the surplus produce, now that is unChristian, isn't it?? |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 75
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
|
Dowen and Real Truth, you both seem to have a knack for distracting from what seems obvious; The fact that the Adams do not tend their own garden. (or at least did not for the last year that Ange and I were their neighbors). And yes, as No Doubt said the whole priesthood thing was the reason we were given as to why the Adams did no work in their garden. And as far as volunteered time goes, it was mostly people from Austin who worked in their garden of whom were more than a little vocal to me about their desire NOT to work in the Adams garden, more than one or two complained of having to take off work and drive the two hour trip to Waco just to weed the Adam's garden while they could hardly pay their bills.
I don't know about tithing 20% of ones garden, but 20% of ones income was required.
Did I always pay 20% tithe? No. For me it was either food for my family or tithe. And even though they were WELL aware of my financial situation, when my tithe check didn't show for a few weeks I heard about it.
As far as HH believing that following the patterns alone bringing salvation, you are right Dowen, they believe you must also be in complete and total submission to the leadership, the regulars to group leaders, group leaders to Elders and Elders to Blair Adams. Following the patterns is only evidence that you are in submission.
Dowen you seem so quick to jump to discredit others testimony with words such as "reprehensible". How can you speak of what you don't know, what you did not see or hear? You always seem to use your family as evidence that what happened to others is not true. |
no_doubt (no_doubt)
New member
Username: no_doubt
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 11:28 pm: |
|
I was not complaining, these things did not happen to me personally, I was answering someone's questions and I was a witness. Please do not add to what I said.
As to the "volunteers" I was ear to more than a couple of these people who told me they didn't have time, were not even keeping up on their own gardens and had even left jobs to help and asked me why they had to do this while the Adams boys stood by. Not knowing the answer I asked why myself and the answer was they were separated for ministry " Levites " was the exact word used.
I never said anything about 20% of gardens I don't know about that. |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.158
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 11:53 pm: |
|
The Levite priesthood?!!! I am going to be sick! |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 281
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.68.15.79
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 2:49 am: |
|
Truth Hunter, you lie through brazen teeth. I am not going to waste a bunch of time hen pecking back and forth, I have pretty much made my peace with this site, but I cannot help to state this:
20% tithe required?
Thats just a figment of your imagination.
I am pretty busy, so ya'll be good. I won't have much time or desire to post.
Dowen, email me at texasorbust505@aol.com please. I would like to talk to you. |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.111
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
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I have been away from HH for a few years. I was hoping that things were getting better. I certainly prayed they would.
Where does he get the idea that His seed or bloodline carries the Levitical priesthood?
I knew he was self-delusional when He claimed his elders and he are Christ come in the flesh, but to claim his family is the Levitical priesthood...?
This is getting scarier all the time. The doctrines that are in place along with the blind honor leave much room for abuse. *If* that honor and Authority are given a mad man there is cause for great concern.
Just the fact that the members accept his claims worries me. They should not walk, but run from a man who claims these things. There is nothing in the Bible to support them.
Mathew 24
23 Then if any one says to you, 'Lo, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 Lo, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, 'Lo, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out; if they say, 'Lo, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
Christ left and the Spirit came, Christ was not going to come again until as he said in the above scripture.
We all as believers are the royal priesthood.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were no people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.
The New Covenant priesthood is a spiritual one. It has nothing to do with a natural man and his seed or bloodline.
Many of HH members were Christians before joining HH. They know better. Are they like many of us once were, willing to give up the truth for a life style in HH.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are supposed to make a covenant with men. Our Covenant is with God.
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the
covenant which I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant which I will
make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each man teach his
neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:31
(Message edited by ForeverHis on July 18, 2005) |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 76
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 10:53 am: |
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Real Truth go look at their tithe envelope 10% for the ministry 5% for the single sisters and you were supposed to set another 5% aside to spend at the fair or other HH celebrations that they called a "Joy" tithe, which of course for the most part would go right into HH's pocket. We had at least one whole meeting focused on nothing but the need and the requirement of scripture to pay a total of 20% . Real Truth, why do keep calling me a liar? You claim you are not associated with them but yet you sound just like everyone else who is. They all say I'm a liar, or that I'm insane or crazy, that I'm creating a past out of thin air to justify leaving HH. They claim I've told nothing but lies, but when I asked them to tell me where and how, because if I had been unclear on something I would change it. They will not give me specifics, only broad answers like, "the whole thing is a lie". I heard they have even had meeting after meeting some even lasting till 3am, to discredit me to their own members. I ask you why on earth would they have to do that if what I said wasn't true. Why would they have to spend hours telling their own that what I said wasn't true and forbidding them to speak with me ? Real Truth, HH heritage must demonize me because the people in HH that knew me, knew I wasn't a liar nor am I the ravenous wolf they claim, so if they can keep their people from talking to me and learning the truth, they can for a time hold on to those that are already under their control. It is like The General said a few posts back there is a little thing called Truth tugging on the hearts of some of the people in HH, they feel the truth in what I'm saying because they are going through the same things as I was. But the problem is they have a hard time acknowledging it when its coming from someone that they are told is a Judas, Snake or wolf. I know what I was told when I saw Christians outside of HH living in the joy and fullness of Christ and expressed a desire to have what they had. I was told what I saw was just the energizing of Satan. So this is no less than what they are telling their own, So to recap, I'm insane, crazy, Judas, liar, wolf, snake and energized by Satan. So who in HH would trust me, who would not be scared to talk to me in fear that they will fall into the dark mire of self absorption. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 282
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.68.15.79
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 12:46 pm: |
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Truth Buyer,
your posts lack the confirmation of the Holy Ghost Spirit of truth. Even if I did not know HH, I would not believe you, because everything you say smacks of hysterical and vengeful bitterness. I spent enough years there to know there is no 20% tithe required. Then, when I called your bluff, you back pedaled, trying to cover your lie.
Look at the first statement you made:}
I don't know about tithing 20% of ones garden, but 20% of ones income was required.
Then you said, regarding this 20% that it was considered to be:
my tithe check
So I called you on your claim that a " 20 % tithe is required ", and here you are revising the story:
go look at their tithe envelope 10% for the ministry 5% for the single sisters and you were supposed to set another 5% aside to spend at the fair or other HH celebrations that they called a "Joy" tithe, which of course for the most part would go right into HH's pocket. We had at least one whole meeting focused on nothing but the need and the requirement of scripture to pay a total of 20% .
In other words, the administration must differentiate between the 10% tithe, and a community fund for the single sisters. I am not sure how they work all that out administrativly, and know of no other church that does this, but it is clear from what YOU SAID that they differentiate between these two. Secondly, I know for a fact that the extra 5 % is NOT , I SAY NOT, required, since it was never required of me, and I never paid it, yet was active in certain types of ministry. Furthermore, having a good deal of friends in HH right now, I know for a fact that it is still not required, and therefore this is a clear exploitation of stretched facts.
And to boot, how evil they must be. You mean they " require " you to be religious? Man, the horror of it all!
Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world. }
Besides the things I disagree with in HH, one of the things I admire the most about them is their desire to take care of their widows etc. I found this incredible, and have never seen it in any other church , sect, or denomination ( With the exception of mormons, to some degree in some places). Perhaps, what you really found distasteful was that you actually were expected to be religious in this place. While it is clear it was not considered your tithe from you say, it appears that rather than excersize religion, you would rather run off at the mouth, making careless comments and accusations... I mean Truth Hunter, you said the tithe was 20% requiredment, and when you are forced into a corner, suddenly it becomes a different story. Here suddenly you were actually asked to try to set aside an additional 5% to support church functions etcetcetc. This in no way makes HH sinister or wierd. Just the opposite. Welcome to mainstream Christianity. Fund raising is one of the biggest across the board practices of all churches and denominations. And they always ask their faithful members to be sure to spend money to support these functions. Asking you to put aside money for such things is not tithing, and your assertion of this " requirement " is proven a lie by your own mouth. Perhaps you ought to get some religion, for once.
Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.
I would encourage you to repent, my friend.
P.S. If you spent hours upon hours attacking my church online in a public arena, as any human, I would be sure to attempt to expose you as being false. This comes as a shock to you>?
Wake up, man!}}}} |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 75
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Truth_hunter, and others,
This discussion is kind of comical to me. Have you never been to a church that "passed the plate"? Most churches BEG for money, on many occasions more that once during a service! If you care to remember HH NEVER passed a plate. They have a box set out in the foyer with a sign over it, tithes. Talk about no pressure! As realtruth so eloquently stated, tithing is biblical! Furthermore, whatever you sow, that will you also reap. What a difficult concept to grasp. I am not saying they didn't question you about skipping tithe checks. When you became a member you knew what was going to be required of you, so don't complain when your church actually requires you to do what you said you would do when you joined. And by the way, have you forgotten that we live in a free society? If everything you say is true, then why didn't you exercise your right to "freedom of religion" and leave a long time before you did?
Also, HH never called you "insane, crazy, Judas, liar, wolf, snake" or the like (although in my mind you are earning them). You are putting words in their mouth's and then building a case against them based on those words. Classic "set em up to knock em down" scenario. What a way to treat you "best friends", as you call them.
About the whole priesthood business, that is something I truly don't know much about so I cannot comment at length on that subject. I do know that I never heard of such a belief and when I questioned my father about such a belief he said he had never heard of such a thing. Unless you can find in HH liturature where the believe such a thing, it seems that all of you making that acusation are bearing false witness against your neighbors.
Now one of you has actually compared HH to the Branch Davidians, what a horrendous stretch. It makes me weep to see how bitter and mean spirited some of you are toward the folks at HH. I guess all of you have forgotten that the members of HH have to live and work in Waco. Many livlihoods depend on the community having a favorable view towards HH. I have to think that nothing but venom is flowing through the veins of anyone who is so full of hate towards another Christian that he channels his hatred in the direction that some of you have. How sad. Not only do you want to destroy their church, you also want to destroy their good names in the surrounding community. Shame, shame, shame. |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 76
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
|
I would also like to point out that most, not all, but most of you are displaying a very cowardly front to the world by not having the courage to reveal your true identies. You have no problem attacking by name those whom you disagre with, yet you hide behind pious usernames when it comes to who you actually are. You selfrightously "expose" people by name and yet you yourself hide who you are. You are living definitions of what a coward truly is.
I am NOT tooting my own horn here, but all of you who are taking such grand precautions to hide your identies should be ashamed yourselves. Some of you are even changing your usernames periodicly to further vail your lies and cowardly true selves. Are you that ashamed of who you really are???? If you truly believe what you say you do, then you shouldn't have any problem putting your name behind it!!!! I realize there are exceptions to every rule but if any of you have the courage to reveal another's identity, then you shouldn't have a problem revealing your own. How in the world do you expect for your word to have gravity if no one knows who you are? Come out of your dark closets and behave like men, or forever be known as cowards.
(Message edited by dowen on July 17, 2005) |
is_this_true (is_this_true)
New member
Username: is_this_true
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 66.236.138.34
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Is it true that Dowen and Real Truth witnessed everything that happened to everybody? Is it true that they know everything? If so why are there so many saying the opposite of what you are ? From previous postings neither of you are members, and both have been gone for some time. Why are you so sure of yourselves and so confident in discrediting others for things you did not witness. It would seem to me that you have your own selfish agenda, perhaps to conjure some spirit of forgiveness from Homestead Heritage leaders for guilt you feel in the way you ran not from the Fellowship to God but instead to your own carnal and selfish lifestyle of sin as you (Dowen) previously stated in your posts. Is this not only likely but most probable? |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.158
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
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I was comparing two doctrines not groups. I want to stand on record and say that in no way are the people of HH militant. They do not take up arms. They are pacifists. ONLY the authority doctrines and the leader's claim of being Christ in the flesh are the same. *IF* the priesthood thing is true, then that is another one. By the way, I had met people in the BD before the crisis and they were very humble and as sweet as can be, especially the women. I wish someone would of warned them. I wish I would of. I stand guilty.
(Message edited by ForeverHis on July 18, 2005) |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 283
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.68.15.79
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 12:26 am: |
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I agree, dowen, the attempt to compare HH to Branch davidians proves the dark depth which this conspiracy has gone to. The point here is to destroy people out of vindictive intent, not to set the record straight. It is a ridiculous comparison, which was already proven in the past.
Is_this_true, hush your accusations, you have no idea of what you speak. |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 20
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.81
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 7:34 am: |
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First, I am the only one to make a comparison. Second this is not a conspiracy. Third, if it bothers Dowen that much, I will delete the reference to BD in these posts. Just let me know Dowen. I really do not want to offend you like this. I'm sorry.
(Message edited by ForeverHis on July 18, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 77
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 9:42 am: |
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Is_this_true,
You are somewhat correct in at least one of your assumptions of me. BEFORE this factnet board was started I did make numerous efforts to seek forgiveness from HH leadership, in paticular my father. The only problem with your scenario is that happened long before this board was ever thought of. I should also point out that forgiveness was gladly granted and I have been on great terms with the leadership for quite some time. So, no, I have no selfish agenda to soothe any "feelings of guilt". Yes, I did leave HH and persue a lifestyle of carnality for a time, that is no fault of HH's though, that responsibility falls upon MY shoulders and no one elses. Unlike many ex-members, I choose to take responsibility for my actions, not blame them on a church.
Foreverhis,
You need not apologize to me for your careless remarks, you need to direct your apology to HH. Removing those remarks, in my opinion, would be the Christian thing to do, but that is your call.
You say "this is not a conspiracy", and to you maybe it is not. But you are playing into a conspiracy plot laid by others by sayings the things you have said.
I am offended by many of the things being said here but if anyone wants to apologize for spouting the nonsense they have, they need to direct it to the innocent people they have slandered at HH, not me. |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.81
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 9:55 am: |
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Please read this with a soft voice. I have done a lot of crying and even now tears are running down my face.
There are MANY innocent people in HH, people I wish not to hurt, some who have been hurt too much already. Their doctrines are not innocent. They are unbiblical and abusive. They have hurt many and have the potential to hurt many more.
I as a Christian can not sit by and not do my part in warning others. I wish someone had warned me. Actually God tried to through many ways including relatives and friends. I figured they didn't know what they were taking about. God used a near crisis in my own family to reach me. That was His mercy. I am so thankful for it. I am so glad I got out before my children had a chance to marry in and we were held apart by HH like some other families are.
I am truly sorry that so many people are offended and hurt by hearing accusations and criticism of the doctrines and leaders they hold dear to their hearts. I remember how hurt I was when D.J. stood outside the gate at a HH event with signs. I loved him and his family and I couldn't believe he was doing that. I wish I would have had the respect to at least consider he might have known something I didn't know. Even now some of us know much more than we are willing to post on a public forum.
Have you judged my heart? That is something I have not done to even the leaders of HH. I choose to think they are making mistakes out of good intentions. Can you give me the same mercy?
I love you Dowen. I love your family. The marriage of your sister is what convicted me of waiting too long. I can only hope that you will never have reason to be as upset with me as I am with myself for waiting so long. I hope your family is never torn apart.
Please find it in your heart to at least believe my motives are pure even if you believe I am making a big mistake.
ForeverHis
(Message edited by ForeverHis on July 18, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 78
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 10:06 am: |
|
I want to believe your motives are pure, and you are correct, I shouldn't judge your heart. I apologize to you for that. All I ask is that you carefully weigh the method you are using to convey your message. You, by posting what you have, have associated yourself with people spreading gossip, lies, and slander. If your motives are truly pure and you want them to remain that way, then please flee this board and disassociate yourself from the vendetta being advanced and the hatred being spewed daily here.
I also love you and your family and I pray my stance here has not damaged any hope of a future relationship with you and your family. I cannot back down from what I believe and I am not asking you to, I just humbly ask that you reconsider your methods of conveying what you believe.
(Message edited by dowen on July 18, 2005) |
is_this_true (is_this_true)
New member
Username: is_this_true
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 66.236.138.34
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 10:30 am: |
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Is it true that Blair's children were considered by Homestead Heritage to be children of David, and everyone else's children were sons of Saul? Therefore worthy of forgiveness much greater than the common folk? For instance, while a commoners child was disassociated for months for making a rude comment, and then upon return to fellow-shipping status caught one of Blair's sons fornicating with another elders girl in the back of a truck. To his surprise found that upon his reporting it that because of the greater temptation that Blair's children face, greater leniency
would be shown and only a private correction would be in place.
(Message edited by is_this_true on July 18, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
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And the rumor mill goes into overdrive. YOU WERE TOLD, xyz. Wasn't it you just a moment ago asking me if I was there, what did I actually witness, etc. etc. etc.!!!! I guess I am held to a diferent standard than you eh?
Wait, it IS so tittilating to spread gossip, now isn't it? Unless YOU SAW this incident, your just reward awaits you for bearing false witness and spreading slander. You call out the "sins" of others by name, and yet you hide your name. Shame on you. |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.80
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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Earlier someone posted saying, "I heard it through the grape vine..." Hear say is wrong. It is gossip. It doesn't stand in the courts of law in our country for a good reason. Please refrain from posting it here.
There are enough of us who have seen, heard, and experienced things first hand we don't need hear say. You are not helping things when you do this.
Listen you guys, this is serious. The last thing we want is for this to turn to sensationalism and curiosity. If we wanted sensationalism we could provided it. Those of us with loved ones inside don't want to stir up a hornets nest with the press.
Please have the respect for all of us involved including members of HH, but most of all respect the truth. Even if it is true you water it down when it is second hand knowledge. If it turns out not to be true... only the true enemy of man will benifit from it. Even if you know something that is true please pray first. Will it do more harm than good? Is it necessary to give the details? Let’s not cut off an arm in attempts to save a finger. I want to encourage caution, I am not rebuking anyone.
If you are a visitor or family member on the outside looking in, then please ask your questions. We will do our best to answer them.
Dowen, I will continue to pray about my involvement. Thank you young man for having the courage to stand for those you love. I understand where you are coming from. There are no hard feelings on my part. There is nothing you could do that would change my love for you.
ForeverHis |
the_general (the_general)
Junior Member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.188.236.51
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 8:09 pm: |
|
Dowen, You know as well as I do that what is being said here is not lies and slander like you said but the truth. Can you honestly say that the things that have happened with the young people(sex,drugs,crimes etc.)have not happened? I understand that there is a good chance that you are ignorant of the inner workings of HH and some of the doctrinal issues but you cannot have missed the problems with the youth. If you want to play dumb I can list them here but I'm pretty sure you know what I'm talking about. And what about your wife? Don't you think your straddling the fence with HH and your views could be hurting her? I'm pretty sure she will not fall for HH, then what? Do you believe like they do that they are more important than your wife? Think about it, you may very well have to choose soon. Of course, because I just wrote this, I may have popstponed the inevitable time of decision for you since they will read this and decide to use more strategy on you.
(Message edited by the_general on July 18, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 80
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 10:19 am: |
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Dearest General,
Your bitterness knows no bounds and you are(were) a better man than this. It is painful to see a man I once respected lower himself to this level.
You know as well as I do that what is being said here is not lies and slander like you said but the truth.(The_General)
What?? Did I read that correctly?? There are COUNTLESS lies being told here! Case in point, THIS QUOTE!
The church you belong to has far more young people who have commited acts of illicit sex, used drugs or commited crimes than HH has ever had to deal with among it's ranks. How does your church get a pass, by you, and HH does not? I smell a double standard here. Young people will be young people and you should know that by experience. I do, and I am less than half your age. Don't hold HH to a diferent standard than you hold another church and if you are going to write off a church because teenagers have acted carnal while attending it, then start with the one you attend.
I mean no harm to your church, or any of the other members there, all I am saying is remove the log from your eye before you endeavor to remove the speck from your neighbor's.
Now you bring my wife into the fray, And what about your wife? Don't you think your straddling the fence with HH and your views could be hurting her? I'm pretty sure she will not fall for HH, then what? Do you believe like they do that they are more important than your wife? Think about it, you may very well have to choose soon. Of course, because I just wrote this, I may have popstponed the inevitable time of decision for you since they will read this and decide to use more strategy on you.(The_General)
Not only are you speculating on my wife's spiritual inclinations but you are trying to pick a fight between her, HH and myself.
Now, in your mind I am straddling a fence. Trust me, I know what fence straddling feels like and as of late, I have been on no such fence. I do however believe that God is my number one priority, followed closely by my wife. I also believe that God in NEVER going to require of me something that will seperate my wife from myself. If anyone were to come to me, in the name of Jesus, and ask me to do something that would compromise my relationship with my wife, I would immediatly know that that person came to me in the authority of another god than Jesus. That scenario is what many of you liars accuse HH of doing. I ask you liars this, if that is true then how come there are so many happily married couples who are MEMBERS of HH??? Furthermore did your marriages languish and stagnate for the entire time You were at HH? Were there no good times?
Did YOU, General, lack the presence of mind to decipher between man pleasing and God pleasing? And because of that now you feel guilty of not giving your wife enough of yourself? Is it because of that guilt that you, instead of taking responsibility for your actions, are blaming YOUR actions on HH?
If I remember correctly you were active at HH for around twenty years. Are you trying to tell me that it took you that long to realize you were in such an unhealthy place? That sure speaks alot of your spiritual aptitude and decernment! It hurts me to say this but you lose credibility with every post...
(Message edited by dowen on July 19, 2005) |
the_general (the_general)
Junior Member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 49
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.5.167
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
|
Thank you dowen. I see that you feel very confident in calling me a liar but I can tell you with a clear consience that I have not lied one time in regard to what I have written about HH. The questions that I posed to you, you can dismiss but as you might recall or if you don't you can read over the history of what I have written, I have stated doctrinal and procedural positions that HH holds and follows. I have suggested that you may not have experienced the same things that most have but in spite of the fact that you are stating an opposite view I have not called you a liar. Now that would be easy to do, since I know what I am talking about and know the things that I have seen and heard first hand and you contiually contradict those things. You can also say that along with my lying I also whine and wallow in self pity, but I have not gotten on this site and complained about a single one of my experiences nor have I wallowed in anything. You are free to think anything you like to about me, but I simply have not done any of the the things you have accused me of. As for everything you had to say about my life and my relationship with my wife and relationship with HH, I'll take that as a shot from you, no hard fellings. Now I wish you luck and I will continue living my life exactly how I have and hope that you find what you are looking for(also I meant no harm to you or your wife and I hope that ya'll have a great life together).
(Message edited by the_general on July 19, 2005)
(Message edited by the_general on July 19, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 81
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
|
Dear General,
Perhaps I have slightly overstepped the bounds of propriety, and perhaps I have come off stronger than I intend to at times. I AM quite confident that most, if not all, of the accusations being made here are lies or grand stretches of the truth. I know that burns someone like you who have staked your grounds and drawn your lines already. Because if I am correct, that means you are steeping in some very hot water and skating on some very thin ice. Agreed??
I did NOT want to bring your wife into this but if you recall you crossed that boundary first and set the precedent. Now that the shoe is on the other foot it doesn't fit so nice does it?
Now that we have exchanged eye's for eye's we can both blindly move forward with our lives. I feel like this is a great acomplishment for both of us. I can sleep much better tonight knowing this.
The real winner in this is Homestead, they have suffered you and others tearing out their eyes, hands, feet and ears, all without making a sound or returning the blows. That is an example we should all endeavor to follow. |
real_truth (real_truth)
Intermediate Member
Username: real_truth
Post Number: 284
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.68.15.79
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
|
amen, dowen!
The real winner in this is Homestead, they have suffered you and others tearing out their eyes, hands, feet and ears, all without making a sound or returning the blows. That is an example we should all endeavor to follow.}}} |
foreverhis (foreverhis)
New member
Username: foreverhis
Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.102
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 2:14 am: |
|
Many of you probably know who I am. Even the leaders at HH probably know who I am and they know I never raised my voice when I addressed them. (My children can't say the same thing. ) I am asking you all to read this in a quiet sincere voice. I am not very good with conveying a soft voice with printed words, so I am at your mercy.
******
As far as "all without making a sound": HH would not be following the course of action I am familiar with them taking in the past if they haven't said some not so nice things about us in their meetings or phone messages. I was there long enough to hear people who are critical being torn down, by name, whether past or current members.
Remember DJ? Or what about CE... who HH wrote a whole book about... talk about details. I knew every vice the man had and I had never even met him. Some of you were young then so you probably didn't have to read it. It was mandatory reading for the rest of us. They sent it out to his friends and family too. (HH ended up having to settle out of court because not all they wrote was true.) They even said stuff about Sister Francie when she left. They didn't keep their opinion to themselves then, and I doubt they are now. I'm not saying they should have to keep it to themselves, I'm just saying lets not pretend they are.
Then there is the fact that I wouldn't be here on this board if they, the leaders and their doctrines were innocent of causing harm. Even if they didn't mean to, it happened, and will contunue to happen, or I wouldn't bother sounding an alarm here.
You know someone mentioned a conspiracy. It never even occurred to me to call or e-mail any of the others on this board until last night. I didn't even know who most of them are. Everything I had to say to them has been said right here, no whispering secrete plans etc. Well last night I went ahead made a few phone calls. I know some of you will not believe it, but there has been some incredible self-restraint practiced. No one I know of has any plans of revealing sensitive and detailed information. (Caution: be careful not to claim otherwise, because you don't want anyone to get defensive and say "I could have posted ______ and I didn't." to try to prove you wrong.) Others of you do believe me because there are things you too know and are grateful at least to God that we haven't felt a need to post them.
People of HH we, (those I talked to,)
do love you. Yes, all of you. I know this seems a strange way to show it. But, those of us who have some maturity ARE restraining ourselves and trying to sound the quietest alarm we can.
Things are not right. People should know what you believe before they spend even a month visiting. So many of your relatives are worried about you. Wouldn't be nice if you could be honest and open with them and visitors about what you believe. You might be thinking they wouldn't understand. They might not, most people don't claim to understand everything in the Bible and it has stood the test of time out in the open. Many of my family members are not Christians and they are as wild as it gets, yet I have no problem telling them why we don't believe in adultery and even why my children don't practice dating the way theirs do. I am not embarrassed by what I believe because I feel it is life giving, especially the Gospel. Most of you will remember, (if you try to,) what it was like before you felt you had to hide what you believe; what it was like to be bold about it.
The Gospel of Jesus and the way to salvation is to be shouted from the house tops and spread through out the lands. Jesus and the disciples did not withhold the Good News because they were afraid it might offend people. There is no shame in it; no reason to hide it. You don't hide light under a bushel. If what you believe is light, then please be willing to make it plainly known to those who inquire.
You have all these beautiful websites and I can't find one that shares what you believe the Good News is; what an opportunity to do so.
You have ROOMS full of literature you worked on for years explaining in detail what you believe, but you don't make it available. You are in relationship with professors from Baylor who think you respect them. They respect you and have given you glowing reports in a magazine. I suggest, (submit,) that you respect their opinion enough to share with them the volumes of literature you have written and get their input on it. We all are capable of error. It is good to at least have a sounding board made up of those we respect but who would not agree with us just to please us. I know you don't respect my opinion, and I don't expect you to, but certainly there are a lot godly men like Homer Owen or these professors who you could respect. You don't have to accept or take on their opinion as your own. In the end we all answer to God not men, but even Paul sought out the other disciples to tell them what he believed and hear what they had to say.
I am praying for your protection from the enemy, all of you, especially you who are in leadership positions. I am praying that God will make plain the truth even if it shows us wrong and HH right. I am praying that God will give us peace if there is nothing to be alarmed about and that all the lies of our common enemy will be exposed for what they are.
"God open the hearts and minds of each of us reading this board, that we may see the truth and walk in peace. God, may your sweet Holy Spirit bring us understanding and free us from any pride, self-righteousness, resentment, animosity, or anything thing else that would puff itself up against the knowledge of You. May your love be felt between us. Help us not to judge each other's intentions and leave that up to you. God, Your judgments are pure. You are Holy and greatly to be praised! In time, every knee shall bow before you. We bow now to You and humble ourselves to your will. In Jesus name, Amen."
ForeverHis
(Message edited by ForeverHis on July 20, 2005) |
the_general (the_general)
Junior Member
Username: the_general
Post Number: 50
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.5.167
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2005 - 12:19 pm: |
|
dowen,I'm glad you can move foward blindly and sleep good doing it, but I am glad to say that I will be moving foward with precision and will only be losing sleep if I decide to stay up late.As for hot water or thin Ice, not agreed.Now honestly, say what you will, think what you like and believe about me what you want because it really makes no difference to me and neither does HH's opinion of me.I am through writing now, I've said what I have to say to you and obviosly, you have chosen to believe what you do and whatever you do from here is on your shoulders.I wish you well, over and out |
charitygrace (charitygrace)
New member
Username: charitygrace
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 216.79.206.186
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:17 am: |
|
bump |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 47
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.153.236.197
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 9:35 am: |
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Hey Everyone,
It has been a blessing to meet with WO's parents and D.Owen's grandparents Homer and Ruby Owen on one of their state side visits from Isreal. He and his wife (as he says in one of his e-pistles "of 49 years") now live in Isreal. He writes what he calls an e-pistle once a week or so. Most of us former members have a love for Isreal. As many of you know, HH has a high respect and love for Isreal and her people. It is the way every Christian should feel that understands where we gentiles came from. If you want to keep up with what is going in Isreal click on the e-mail list and you will stay informed. God Bless you and enjoy this e-pistle.
8/23/05 - 20 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bible gives us many accounts of years going by in the lives of Abraham, Moses, Joseph, David and on and on as this God of Abraham puts together the plans and purposes that are on His heart. Joseph sat in prison while God tested him. Moses tended sheep for forty years in preparation for a great move of God among His people here in the Mideast. The great Apostle Paul just seems to have disappeared after having a marvelous salvation experience and then re-appearing fourteen or so years later.
The Lord graciously began to work in my life almost sixty years ago and only in the past thirty five have I endeavored to cooperate with Him. His marvelous grace and mercy must need be extended to a thousand generations to cover all of us. Yes, we must be thankful that His mercy is fresh and new each morning and if it wasn't we would all be consumed. Because of His great mercy we can all have hope that what we have perceived in our hearts to accomplish just might come to pass. Noah spent 120 years working on his dream and this God of all patience did not mind waiting on his righteous man to finish the task set before him. Thank you, Lord, for your longsuffering spirit.
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:4-7)
'BUT GOD'! You might notice that I will use this little phrase from time to time. Many years ago a dear friend of Ruby and I pointed out these two words in Ephesians 2:4, and they have become a part of our very being. We are so thankful that our God is able to stop us dead in our foolishness and turn us around in the right direction.
Ruby and I had planned on taking two or three months to travel into the northwest part of the U.S., ‘BUT GOD!’ Instead, through a chain of events in the summer of 1998, we found ourselves agreeing to come to Israel with twelve other folks on a tour. The journey to the northwest was put on hold and we still have not made that trip. Just maybe one of these days, but at the moment it is not very important.
Our tour took us to the Sea of Galilee for the first night and after supper the Lord spoke to my heart that He desired for us to have communion on the shore of Galilee across from our hotel. I went down the stairs and one of the other men met me in the lobby telling me the same thing. What a wonderful way to begin our tour and indeed the Lord did meet with us that night in a wonderful way. We sang and prayed and worshiped this God of Abraham and wondered how many times He just might have had communion with some more of His Body over the centuries on the spot we were at.
The night was not over for the Lord tells us that He neither sleeps nor slumbers and around 4 a.m. I found myself wide awake with an expectation that the Holy Spirit had something to tell me. The Lord spoke to my heart that morning and told me that He was in the process of bringing forth "One New Man" and that I was to be a part of what He had in His heart to do. I do not consider myself to be an emotional sort of person, but when the Holy Ghost reaches down and touches you, it is a different story. There is a major difference between an emotional experience over circumstances and an encounter with a living God.
God has truly been gracious to me on many occasions to allow me to enjoy His sweet presence, but this encounter out-did them all. Wave after wave of glory filled my very being that morning and then on up into the day. I told my sweet wife when we were first married that I did not like a crying woman and if she had to cry don't do it around me. The Lord smiled and caused me to be a big cry baby twelve years later. I really don't mind crying anymore. Glory!
"I will bless the Lord who has counseled me; Indeed, my mind instructs me in the night. I have set the Lord continually before me; Because He is at my right hand, I will not be shaken........Thou will make known to me the path of life; In Thy presence is fullness of joy; In Thy right hand there are pleasures forever." (Psalms 16:7-8, 11)
What a joy to know that God has plans and purposes for each of us and that He is working with us to get us into a place where they can be revealed in and to us. The Bible is a testimony book of God working in His people by revelation and, praise God, we can discover that He is the same yesterday, today and forever. One of the great needs in the body of believers is to realize and embrace Him as the God of revelation.
The Holy Spirit had me look at a passage in Ephesians 2 that changed my life for eternity. Most of us believe that we are in the end times and that God wants to show us what is going to happen even before it happens. I am talking about all that must take place before the King of Glory returns. May He grant all of us a spirit of revelation and wisdom today as we read the following passage:
"Remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by having put to death the enmity.
"And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:12-22)
I was raised in a wonderful Godly family and church back in the Texas Panhandle and had no clue that my salvation was of the Jews. Without ever being taught we just assumed that the Christian faith was a product of and for Gentiles. Slowly, over the years the goodness of God began to roll back the veil that was over my mind and I began to discover that my roots in Jesus took me back beyond the cross to a rich heritage in this God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Like most western believers we were taught to be very leery of Eastern religions. Rightly so, but God, choose one of these Eastern people to become His people and when we embraced Jesus we have in fact embraced an Eastern religion. Praise God, by His great grace and mercy we embraced the right one. Glory!
In the next chapter we will explore more of this passage from Ephesians and allow the Holy Spirit to help us find our place in this ONE NEW MAN.
Blessings, Homer Owen.
www.samaritanfoundation.org
homer@samaritanfoundation.org
Pray for the Owen's when you pray for Isreal.
Under Grace |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 49
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.153.236.197
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 2:36 am: |
|
Hello everyone,
I wanted to start a new and seperate thread with the above post about Isreal, however, I apparently do not know how to do that. I hit 'new thread' thinking it will show up on the discussion board as a new topic, but all it does is list it as a new thread on the thread that I hit. This probably makes no sense. Is there anyone that can help me?
Thanks! Under Grace |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
New member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:25 am: |
|
Hi Grace,
Try using "new thread" from the page under the main "Homestead Heritage" page
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/8171.html?1124865419
There is a "Start New Thread" on that page that should work.. give the thread a helpful descriptive name.
Maybe folks could aim for a crisp and friendly tone on the thread as well.
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 50
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.153.236.197
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:31 am: |
|
Thanks Parxaluh,
I appreciate your help and I agree with your comment.
Under Grace
PS I have never heard the name/word praxaluh what does it mean? Thanks again. |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
New member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:33 am: |
|
Hi Folks,
Most welcome.
On Paltalk and some other web realms I tended to use variants of Praxeus on my name -- an early church fellow known mostly from Tertullian's "Adverseus Praxean" -- also praxis has a meaning like practice or custom or technique, as in "Latin Praxis" or "Chess Praxis" by Aron Nimzovich. Praxaluh is just an informal form of the Prax name :-)
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
under_grace (under_grace)
Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 53
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 24.153.236.197
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:22 pm: |
|
Shalom back to you!
The name makes sense.
Under Grace |
mic_s (mic_s)
New member
Username: mic_s
Post Number: 20
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.103.128
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 3:08 pm: |
|
bump |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 26
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 12:24 pm: |
|
Bump |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 52
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
|
In the Asian, African and Latin American countries, well over 500 million people are living in what the World Bank has called "absolute poverty"
Every year 15 million children die of hunger
The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed one-third is starving- Since you've read this at least 200 people have died of starvation. Over 4 million will die this year.
One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of 5.
The Indian subcontinent has nearly half the world's hungry people. Africa and the rest of Asia together have approximately 40%, and the remaining hungry people are found in Latin America and other parts of the world.
Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion - a majority of humanity - live on less than $1 per day, while the world's 358 billionaires have assets exceeding the combined annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people. UNICEF
3 billion people in the world today struggle to survive on US$2/day.
In 1994 the Urban Institute in Washington DC estimated that one out of 6 elderly people in the U.S. has an inadequate diet.
In the U.S. hunger and race are related. In 1991 46% of African-American children were chronically hungry, and 40% of Latino children were chronically hungry compared to 16% of white children.
The infant mortality rate is closely linked to inadequate nutrition among pregnant women. The U.S. ranks 23rd among industrial nations in infant mortality. African-American infants die at nearly twice the rate of white infants.
One out of every eight children under the age of twelve in the U.S. goes to bed hungry every night.
Half of all children under five years of age in South Asia and one third of those in sub-Saharan Africa are malnourished.
Malnutrition is implicated in more than half of all child deaths worldwide - a proportion unmatched by any infectious disease since the Black Death
About 183 million children weigh less than they should for their age
To satisfy the world's sanitation and food requirements would cost only US$13 billion- what the people of the United States and the European Union spend on perfume each year.
The assets of the world's three richest men are more than the combined GNP of all the least developed countries on the planet.
Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger
It is estimated that some 800 million people in the world suffer from hunger and malnutrition, about 100 times as many as those who actually die from it each year. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 30
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
|
What does this have to do with Homestead Doctrine? There are political threads elsewhere. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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It’s not about politics. It’s not about doctrine. It’s about life and the world we live in. It’s trying to remember what’s really important. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 54
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
|
Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger and yet God’s children are fighting over interpretation of scripture? |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 32
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 5:28 pm: |
|
What would your prefer, a child to die of hunger, or die not knowing Christ?
You are Very confused.
(Message edited by truth hunter on September 27, 2005) |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 55
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 5:37 pm: |
|
We do not want any child to die but they can know Christ and be saved without worrying about DOCTRINE. And my thought is….. instead of spending time on this board fighting with other Christians about some church's view….why not invest the time to make a difference to some poor starving child? If you are more concerned about some Church that has made you mad than all these kids starving, then YOU, my friend, are very confused.
May God have mercy on your soul. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 58
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
|
You're At the Top When:
You clearly understand that failure is an event - not a person; that yesterday ended last night - and today is your brand new day
When you made friends with your past, focused on the present, and optimistic about your future
When you know that success, a win, doesn't make you; and failure, a loss, doesn't break you
When you're filled with faith, hope, and love; and live without anger, greed, guilt, envy, or thoughts of revenge
When you're at the maturing of "to delay gratification and shift your focus from your rights to your responsibilities"
When you know that failure to stand for what is morally right is the prelude to being the victim of what is criminally wrong
When you are secure in who you are, so you are at peace with God and at fellowship with man
When you've made friends of your adversaries and have gained the love and respect with those who know you best
When you understand that others can give you pleasure, but genuine happiness comes when you do things for others
When you're pleasant to the grouch, courteous to the rude, and generous to the needy
When you love the unlovable, give hope to the hopeless, give friendship to the friendless, and encouragement to the discouraged
When you can look back in forgiveness, forward in hope, down in compassion, and up with gratitude
When you know that he who would be the greatest among you must become the servant of all
When you recognize, confess, develop, and use your God-given physical, mental, and spiritual abilities to the glory of of God and for the benefit of mankind
When you stand in front of the Creator of the Universe and He says to you, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant"
By: Zig Ziglar |
under_grace (under_grace)
New member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 24
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
|
Pure Heart
You continue to hang doors in space that have nothing to with the answer or the question.
Pureheat...."Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger and yet God’s children are fighting over interpretation of scripture?"
This statement would indicate that the people on this web site spend all their time refuting HH doctrine at the exclusion of helping the poor, witnessing to the lost, praying for our nation or many other things Christians should do. If that is true of posters here then a good rebuke is appropriate. Of course pureheart to offer such a rebuke you would have to 'judge' ones actions before you could admonish them and that is something that you 'never' do.
Pureheart...."We do not want any child to die but they can know Christ and be saved without worrying about DOCTRINE." This is an interesting quote. I would ask PH how are these children or anyone going to "know Christ and be saved without worrying about DOCTRINE"? I mean what are you going to tell them?
You could share with them that if they want to know to "know Christ and be saved" they could come to a fellowship like HH. This would start a process by which after following many steps and several months, perhaps a year or more you could begin the journey toward salvation. To enter that journey you would have to stand up in a closed meeting for members only and declare that you will be faithful to a covenant unto death. Meaning you promise to never leave HH. You promise you will place yourself under the Leaders of HH and submit to them without question. If you do not do the things promised may death come to you. After those declarations you would be baptized and start your journey toward salvation.
You could share..."That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." You would ask the person if they wanted to pray the sinners prayer. You would rejoice as their name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. You would encourage that person to find a local Bible believing church. You would help that person find other Christians that would help them nurture and grow as a new believer.
These are two very different doctrinal messages on how to obtain eternal life. Both can not be right. Which one do you use Pureheart?
A closing note. No one wants people to starve. The scripture I believe admonishes us to help feed the hungry physically as well as spiritually. We do agree that we can do both at the same time. Feeding one physical food depends primarily on money and availability. Spiritual food does require discernment and rightly dividing the Word of God. Please God help us to do both.
Everday is a good day to be.....
Under Grace |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 248
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 8:59 pm: |
|
Under_Grace,
Thank you so much for the above post.
I have been working on a monster of a post for you, but you have saved me a bunch of time with your above words!
Since UG has decided not to communicate with me the rest of this is written to the "casual observer".
Let's examine the words of Under_Grace;
"You could share with them that if they want to know to "know Christ and be saved" they could come to a fellowship like HH. This would start a process by which after following many steps and several months, perhaps a year or more you could begin the journey toward salvation."
Here, he is saying that according to HH, without following their "steps" one cannot be saved. That is a lie and an attack upon HH.
Let's dig deeper, UG said;
"To enter that journey you would have to stand up in a closed meeting for members only and declare that you will be faithful to a covenant unto death. Meaning you promise to never leave HH. You promise you will place yourself under the Leaders of HH and submit to them without question. If you do not do the things promised may death come to you."
This is also an attack upon HH and a lie. I know of several people who, after being baptized at HH, decided to move their life in a different direction. HH has not condemned them to Hell.
He brings up the idea of "submitting without question" that is an attack of honest men's characters, such as my dads. My father has told me of many times he has "questioned" the leaders of HH. Even after he has become an Elder in their Church!
Why does UG challenge me to find where he has attacked people, then write stuff like the above post?
Oh, I know, he's under grace, and as such above reason....
************************
Let me just say now, whomever UG is, I feel certain he thinks he is doing someone out there a favor by writing this stuff. As such, I respect him and wish him no harm. I think his view is mixed up and distorted, but I respect him as a man, created in Christ's image.
Just as he feels he has a duty to "expose" HH, I have a duty to point out falsehoods where I see them. |
under_grace (under_grace)
New member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 25
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 1:39 am: |
|
D.Owen....
"Here, he is saying that according to HH, without following their "steps" one cannot be saved. That is a lie and an attack upon HH."
My saying that according to HH one cannot be saved without following their "steps" is a "lie and attack on HH? Post like this makes me wonder if you ever listened or observed at all when were attending Sunday services. HH does not deny they have a very different plan of salvation than other churches, it is what separates and allows them to walk in truth (as they see it) while other churches go the simple Roman road to salvation. If this is an example of personal attacks then you had better dig a little deeper.
The HH plan is a progression of steps leading up to salvation. This is common knowledge among ex-members on this discussion board, however for the readers who might not know the process in HH the following is a brief outline... First you start by visiting at the picnics, then attending Friday nights, then finally after several months or a year or even more to attend Sunday meetings. After attending Sunday meetings for a few weeks or a couple of months, it is time to step up and make the vow similar to Ruth's vow. The person wanting to join after going through the above steps would say something like "I feel God has brought me to HH and my heart is knitted here. This is the place where I want to live out my life. "May the LORD deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me." If the declaration was excepted the next baptism the person would be baptized. After the person made a baptismal vow which was equally as severe they would began their salvation journey in HH.
Hey, ex-members is this an accurate portrayal to the steps entering salvation in HH. Please confirm or set me straight. Dowen has already called my describing this as "a lie and an attack upon HH." How about it gang?
Dowen says...."This is also an attack upon HH and a lie. I know of several people who, after being baptized at HH, decided to move their life in a different direction. HH has not condemned them to Hell."
This is an interesting post. While I was in HH and until today talking with people who have left or were disfellowshiped and stayed out, I know of NO ONE who was baptized in HH and decided to "move their life in a different direction" then left with the Elders blessing. The warning went like this..."What you are doing has eternal consequences. You better think about what you are doing." Sometimes GL would even play a recording of the vow unto death you made in a Sunday meeting back to you to remind you of the covenant vow unto death you made.
Ex-members do you (without naming names) know of people who were members, were baptized who left with the blessing of the fellowship and was not warned what would happen if they did not return? (The warning being they must repent and return because their salvation depended on it.)
Dowen says..."He (UnderGrace) brings up the idea of "submitting without question" that is an attack of honest men's characters, such as my dads. My father has told me of many times he has "questioned" the leaders of HH. Even after he has become an Elder in their Church!"
There are post after post with tons of personal testimonies of ex-members that confirm you have to "submit without question" if you want to stay in good standing with HH. Now if you are saying could you ask questions like, " how do you milk a goat or what do you do if your kid has strep throat, then yes these kind of questions were permissible even welcomed. If you questioned established HH doctrine or "Temple Patterns" (any of the HH established laws, you would eventually be gone if you persisted.)
As far as your dad, I have said before that I highly respect your dad. Any time I was around him he was especially kind and friendly. I was a peon, a worker bee. Maybe the Elders can ask each other questions and actually disagree with an established HH doctrine or law. I do not know, every person I knew while a member that stood up against doctrine or law was gone. The only leader I know that has come out of the fellowship said he could not question HH law or doctrine while a leader.
Dowen says..."Why does UG challenge me to find where he has attacked people, then write stuff like the above post?"
Again do you think what I said in the above post is a personal attack on you, your dad or someone in HH? It would seem that is what you are implying. Could you please dig up some more of my post so you can confirm more personal attacks?
Dowen says...."Let me just say now, whomever UG is, I feel certain he thinks he is doing someone out there a favor by writing this stuff. As such, I respect him and wish him no harm. I think his view is mixed up and distorted, but I respect him as a man, created in Christ's image.
Just as he feels he has a duty to "expose" HH, I have a duty to point out falsehoods where I see them."
We found something we can agree on. Of course I think the shoe is on the other foot. God bless you. I have said it before and I will say it again you Daniel, are a fine young man. I respect the way you stand up for your dad, any father would be proud, as I know W. is.
Being Under Grace gives me no license to say whatever I want and then hide in grace. Like you I feel an obligation and a "duty to point out falsehoods where I see them."
Tonight I feel safe and secure in His hands and being....
Under Grace |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 34
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 12:04 pm: |
|
Quotes by Dowen,
"my father upholds everything that HH believes" post 240
"My father has told me of many times he has "questioned" the leaders of HH. Even after he has become an Elder in their Church!" post 248
Hummm, It seems odd to me that an elder would have to question what he stood by . How can you stand by something you have to question, "many times". |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 249
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Maybe if you are an honest person, when a question arises you go and deal with it!
You seem to not understand that a question should have an answer. If the answer is something you agree with, then, in the end, you are "upholding" the answer.
UG was trying to make a personal attack on the integrity of men like my father, by saying things like the members of HH must obey without question.
You, Mr. hunter have taken a cheap shot and missed. Good day. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 35
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |
|
First let me say there are different types of questions,
Example 1: Bro. ___ why do we garden when we can just run down to Wal-Mart and get our veggies?
Example 2: Bro. ____ who does Blair Adams think he is to stand up in a meeting and yell at all of us and threaten, "No more will you see my face until you can say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord', and then storm out of the meeting."
I feel like that was not God, I don't know if I can submit my life and family to a man that feels the liberty to abuse the authority and name of my Lord in that manner. Do you really feel he is Jesus in the flesh.
Dowen , you never being a member of HH, never having attempted to raise a family there, never questioning them as a member, have no idea what its like to question. You cannot question the authority of Blair Adams or you are out.
Under Grace, you nailed it.
(Message edited by TRUTH HUNTER on September 28, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 250
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
|
You lie. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 251
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 2:50 pm: |
|
Under_Grace,
What is your tie to "TruthBuyer"?
You have posted for him in the past, have you not?
(FYI, Since I have no idea who "truthbuyer" I am not trying to "find out who UG is, just trying to clear the air) |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 26
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 3:38 pm: |
|
Dowen,
I have no connection to "truthbuyer". When I first stumbled on this website I posted under the name Full of Mercy a couple of times.
Where are some of 'truthbuyers' posts, I remember the name but don't know the thread? I know you do not mean truthhunter or realtruth.
Let's all 'hunt' for the 'real truth' since it has already been bought an paid for by our Lord and we do not have to 'buy' it. The truth is freely given by grace and is keeped.....
Under Grace |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 28
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
|
Truth buyer,
I went back and read some of your posts. I consider it an honor for Dowen to think that I might have written some of your posts. If your still around jump in the pool.
Under Grace |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 252
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
|
I did not say I thought you are TruthBuyer, just if you knew Truthbuyer.
At any rate, someone in your household knows TruthBuyer.
I doubt TB will show back up, he was thoroughly defeated in every argument he presented. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 253
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
|
Under_Grace,
You are constantly talking about the "covenant to death" that HH forces its members to take.
I am curious, did you take that covenant? |
missionary_lady (missionary_lady)
Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 70
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 172.163.107.192
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
|
I know some who did... |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 254
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
|
(......Spooky music playing....)
So do I.............
What's your point................? |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 37
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:51 pm: |
|
What's yours ? |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 60
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 205.157.244.33
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
|
Sustained
(Message edited by pure-heart on September 28, 2005) |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 38
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 7:25 pm: |
|
Pure Heart, could you Please just put the links to your sermons, and if people want to read them they can. It would be the same difference.
Thank you. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 39
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 66.55.230.165
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 7:31 pm: |
|
This is supposed to be a discussion, not a dissertation. |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 377
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.238.89.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 7:38 pm: |
|
I agree, Truth_hunter. I am familiar with Ray Stedman and appreciate his teachings, but I don't come to FACTNet to read sermons or articles -- it's a discussion board. At some point, posting all those writings just becomes spam. In fact, here is how FACTNet addresses the issue:
FACTNet Discussion Board FAQ
What is SPAM?
This is a discussion board.
* Excessive amounts of posts that are mere "cut-and-paste" is spam.
* Excessive use of wacky formatting that makes the discussion board difficult to read is spam. It is also vandalism.
* Posting the same info into different threads is spam.
* Excessive amounts of hyperlinks within posts is spam.
Common sense will tell you which other things (that we have not mentioned) are spamming techniques. At our discretion, we will block spammers from accessing the discussion board. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 255
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
|
I for one appreciate Pureheart posting what he did. I think he added to the discussion!
Now, get real guys. When a link is posted more likely than not it will be ignored.
IMHO you didn't like the above post because it convicted you. |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 379
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.238.89.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 8:06 pm: |
|
Excuse me, dowen, it doesn't matter whether we like the posts or not; according to the rules of FACTNet, they are SPAM.
I've been around FACTNet for awhile and when someone has developed a reputation for being thoughtful, reasoned and civil in their discourse, people tend to click on the links they post. If it is ignored, it is usually because the posts themselves are being ignored.
The frequent posters on the HH thread have been incredibly patient, IMHO. If real_truth or pureheart were haunting some other threads, FACTNet moderators would have been inundated with requests to block them by now. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 256
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
|
What a sad place FACTnet is!
John 3:19 - And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Light was beamed into this dark world known as FACTnet!
But, as should be expected, men love darkness...... |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 380
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.238.89.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 8:41 pm: |
|
Dowen,
Are you a drama major? |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 257
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
|
Glad I made you laugh "Common_sense".
The Truth yet remains though.
The post that Pureheart submitted was a ray of light into this dark hole. More than a ray of light though, it totally decimated the entire premise of FACTnet!
If you will utilize the "common sense" you claim to have, you will find that the post you so lightly dismissed contains the key to resolving ALL of the 'babblings' contained on this thread, and probably most of the other threads on FACTnet!
But wait, this dialog with you just proves that FACTnet is not about discussing doctrine, it is about personal attacks. And that, my friends, IS DARKNESS! |
common_sense (common_sense)
Intermediate Member
Username: common_sense
Post Number: 381
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.238.89.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 8:55 pm: |
|
And you, dowen, are the proverbial brick wall!
BTW, this conversation has been rendered irrelevant by the deletion of the post in question. Guess we've been plunged into total darkness now. |
dowen (dowen)
Intermediate Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 258
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.153.234.187
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:01 pm: |
|
Well, I pray my "brick wall" is firmly footed in Jesus.
At any rate, regardless of disagreements, God bless you 'Common_sense'. |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 61
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.243.185.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 10:58 pm: |
|
Aceldama |
pureheart (pureheart)
Member
Username: pureheart
Post Number: 62
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.243.185.22
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
|
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:
2 Tim 4:2-7
Shalom |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 29
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
|
Dowen posts...."Under_Grace,
What is your tie to "TruthBuyer"?
You have posted for him in the past, have you not?"
Under Grace reply..."Dowen,
I have no connection to "truthbuyer". When I first stumbled on this website I posted under the name Full of Mercy a couple of times."
Dowen reply...."I did not say I thought you are TruthBuyer, just if you knew Truthbuyer.
At any rate, someone in your household knows TruthBuyer. I doubt TB will show back up, he was thoroughly defeated in every argument he presented."
Now Under Grace reply...First.I did not misunderstand you I knew you didn't think I was Truthbuyer nothing about my reply would indicate that. In fact your original post ask me if I posted as Truthbuyer. D. for some reason you don't seem to remember what you post from post to post. Second, for your information no one in my household except me posts on this discussion board and no one in my family knows who Truthbuyer is. Third, from the posts I read Truthbuyer was not the one who ..."was thoroughly defeated in every argument he presented."
God Bless. Under Grace |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 30
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 12:22 am: |
|
Dowen posts..."Under_Grace,
You are constantly talking about the "covenant to death" that HH forces its members to take.
I am curious, did you take that covenant?"
(By the way I do not believe HH forces anyone to take the covenant unto death. It is done voluntary as is membership voluntary. It is the revelation that comes after the voluntary I have problems with.)
From previous Under Grace post...."Daniel I wish it were different, but if you leave (HH) in rebellion to your covenant unto death and you never repent then according to HH you will not make it to heaven. I desperately love the people I left behind and I hope someday I will be restored to those relationships if not in this life the one to come."
Again within the same post..."I have repented. My repentance was from making the covenant vow unto death. I have been released from that vow and I am now....
Under Grace"
Mr. D. In your research to find where I have made personally attacks on you, your dad or any HH member you might re-read my posts. Agree or disagree they are revealing and educational.
Have a great night! I am sleeping well resting....
Under Grace |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 31
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 12:33 am: |
|
Common Sense
What does BTW mean?
Do you know how to work the color, font, size etc on the post section? Any help from you or anyone would be appreciated.
By the way I enjoy reading your posts. Maybe some time we could have a meeting of former members and share the Lord. (Not a kick HH time.) Reading your posts as with so many others has been a blessing to me thanks for your in-put.
Waco-Hater have not heard from you in awhile. How you doing? Anyway hello out there.
Under Grace |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
New member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 17
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 7:03 am: |
|
Hi Folks,
BTW = bytheway
Whereever you are in the post.. first hit the button on top .. eg. the "I" for italics.. then type away .. then hit it again. -- Your italics section is encapsulated between the two times you hit the I button.
Same with Bold and underline
=====
Also size and Color and Font
(Oops, that font was "symbol", Courier is a an easier example )
.. work similarly.. when you put the drop-menu back to normal .. (ie. the words color, font or size) it is like the closing.. and the "}" symbol is inserted.
Emoticoms are a smidgen different. You place a simply by choosing the emoticom. However .. this type with movement   .. a lot of folks might view as annoying ... 
The only real nuance is if you want to change something in the middle of the post, before where you are at. Then you might do a little cut-and-pasting.
Hope that helps. Play with it a bit.
Lightly used, they can help a post.
.. but please, not that light !
Shalom,
Praxaluh
You could even put secret messages in invisible text that would show up in a search.. hmmmm |
praxaluh (praxaluh)
New member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 18
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 7:22 am: |
|
Ahhh.. you might want to note the alternating backgrounds. My invisible text was not so invisible. 
One of the next two names should be almost invisible .. (Mr. White) or (Mr. Grey). Complicating the issue a bit is the alternating backgrounds. The bold yellow actually is a bit more reasonable on gray than white. However, if a post is deleted .. that would probably flip the background, by the law of unintended consequences.
====
On another topic.. public TV, NPR, had a show about the walk across the continent, around 1530, of Alvar Nuñez Cabeza de Vaca.
Example.
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/a_c/cabezadevaca.htm
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/one/cabeza.htm
Also that there was a film in the early 90's, and they showed a couple of clips of it during the narration.
Lots of interesting stuff, new research about his diary and locations, plants and mountains, and a neat section including the Taramahara Indians, from the steep canyons of northern Mexico, and their sense of 'walking straight'.
Shalom,
Praxaluh |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Intermediate Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 115
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.1.37
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 9:14 pm: |
|
Under Grace,
Your gracious words are kind and welcome. Though I have been away from the message board for awhile, maybe I can begin posting again, at least on a semi regular basis.
I believe this should mean that I will answer the points that Realtruth has made about the nature of this forum and the scriptural viability of this forum to host the airing of concerns about HH. Realtruth need exhibit patience just a mite longer.
By the way, the name Truthbuyer was chosen from the verse in Proverbs that says, "Buy the truth and sell it not." The implication is that truth is always valuable to acquire, but is not worth exchanging for anything else. As you pointed out, such is the nature of Jesus Christ. |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 36
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 10:26 pm: |
|
Truth Buyer
Welcome Back! I think maybe Real Truth and D.Owen have become so putout with us "liars"
"murderers (terrorists)", "Korah and his crowd", that they have left. We may just have to come up with some regular posts, rather than reacting to theirs.
Love the name. I try to read a Proverb per day. The Proverb that corresponds with the days date. Also, the corresponding Psalm. Works out going through Proverbs twelve times a year and Psalms every five months. Kind of neat to add that to regular study in Scripture.
God Bless you. I will look forward to reading your posts.
Under Grace |
mic_s (mic_s)
New member
Username: mic_s
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.103.207
| | Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
|
bump |
truthbuyer (truthbuyer)
Intermediate Member
Username: truthbuyer
Post Number: 116
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.155.1.13
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 5:13 pm: |
|
Under Grace,
Regardless of what group I am supposedly identified with and regardless of who rails aganst me, I am quietly assured that, ultimately, Truth always prevails. Sometimes, this does not appear to be the case. Much has to be ignored before the fog of loud hasty words subside before the clarity of Truth is made known. Faithfulness to Truth in such a situation is essential.
It matters not whether you are in HH, an ex member of HH or involved in another church or group using similar doctrine and methodology. The earnest pursuit of the Truth results in a bountiful harvest of protection for the one desiring to live their life according to the Thoughts of God. It may also mean a difficult separation from those employing such docrines and methods, simply to protect oneself and the family God has entrusted to their care. There have been many on this site who have said as much.
Of course, others have had many strong words against those sharing their experiences. These strong words reveal a perceived enmity against those supposedly attacking all that they have known to be true. It is understandable for them to react in, what some consider to be, a strong manner.
In spite of this, it is vital to remember that they, too, are in need of truth. They are no different than you and I. The fact that a particular part of truth is possessed by any single person posting on this forum does not negate the need for others to possess that same truth. Knowing this can enable any person to maintain the equilibrium necessary to convey God's Truth to anyone needing it. This is part of being led of the Holy Spirit in word and action and is much more than winning an argument. It is the Work of God in the fallen Human heart. That is what this site is really all about. |
under_grace (under_grace)
Junior Member
Username: under_grace
Post Number: 45
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 1:06 am: |
|
Truthbuyer,
Well said. Please help me if you see me falling short in remembering that Truth will prevail. It is easy to get caught up in arguing and not taking in to account that the person lashing out may be doing so out of their own hurt.
Under Grace |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
Junior Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
|
Watchman Fellowship used our criteria (see beginning of this tread for details) for evaluating a Bible based group to examine the teachings and practices of Homestead Heritage. The results of that examination brought forth our conclusion that Homestead Heritage is not representative of a Christian fellowship. Let me base that, point by point, on their doctrinal statements.
First we asked, “Do they add to the Word of God”
Our answer was, “Yes.”
We believe the most concise statement is found at the end of the document titled Constitution on Koinonia Membership. Allow me to quote from the last page,
“You acknowledge by signing this Constitution that you hold to the Holy Bible as interpreted by the Spirit moving through the appropriate channels of leadership as your ‘curriculum,’ your course of faith, supplemented and more precisely defined and expounded by the interpretation given by the Spirit and recorded in Salvation Is of the Jews; Hallelu Yah; The Garden of God; Covenant Love; The Temple; The Bedrock; The laws of Consistency; The Foundations of the Temple Series, Volumes 1, 2 and 3; The Order of Perfection; The Service of the Temple; The Narrow Gate; Koinonia Covenant Confession; Who Owns the Children?; Wisdom’s Children; Building Christian Character; Beyond Violence; Beyond Pacifism; Culture as Spiritual War Series; Knowledge as Spiritual War Series; Justice Is Fallen; the Koinonia Curriculum and others that might be added in the future through the appropriate channels of leadership per the above, including various specific position and conviction papers, such as those on home birth and home education.”
It is not the Bible that is their authority, it is what they say the Bible says as “more precisely defined and expounded by” their interpretation as set forth in their literature.
The second question I asked was, “Do they deny the Trinity?”
Our answer, “Yes.”
In their book, The Bedrock, Blair Adams and Joel Stein make this statement
“…we recognize that the views that culminated in the Trinitarian doctrine began circulating in the church during the second and possibly even the first centuries. The source of this view, however, was never scriptural; it always stemmed from confusion that entered the church from pagan philosophy or religion.” (p. 50).
I think that makes the point.
Next, “Do they hold to a Biblical view of Jesus Christ?”
The answer is, “No.”
Let’s read some statements from Who Do Men Say That I Am. On pages 179 & 180 they say,
“So the Son of God was not a person coeternal with another person, the Father, but we see from the above scriptures (Rom. 5:14) that when Jesus speaks to the Father of ‘the glory I had with you before the world began’ (John 17:5), It means that the Messiah, the Christ, who is God’s wisdom, had been preconceived in the mind of God, the God who ‘calls things that are not as though they were’(Rom. 4:17).”
Now, this may be a view held by many in the Oneness churches but it is not the view held by conservative, Evangelicals of whom our theological positions would be representative.
Now let me give you an Evangelical view of the pre-existence of the Son of God. Let’s look at one of the most famous and well-known passages in scripture, John 1:1.
“In the beginning was the Word (we want to look at the Greek verb used here for was, hn. It is in the indicative imperfect tense, which in English would mean it is past tense, linear or continuous action, or in this case, state of being. So, we have “In the beginning the Word eternally existed”. Now, the second clause reads, “and the Word was with God”. We want to concentrate on the words was with, hn pros. The preposition pros when used to show relationship, means face to face. So, we have John saying, “and the Word was eternally existent, in a face to face relationship with the Father at the time of the creation.” And the last clause is a predicate nominative, “and the Word was God” or “God was the Word”. So, what we have i | |
