| Author | Message | ||
     rhino_co (rhino_co) New member Username: rhino_co Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.220.89.38 |
To sum up this nice up religion 1. Jesus name only baptism as opposed to the traditional catholic/Anglican Trinitarian form. 2. Full immersion baptism is the only acceptable method because the Greek word Baptiso means to plunge into water. 3. You are not going to be saved in a fictitious event called the rapture unless you receive the charismatic gift of tounges. This is YOUR ONLY evidence that you have been blessed by the holy spirit. This faith is very hypocritical in the way they conduct their worship. They criticize other churches namely catholic church. They base their doctrines very erroneously by engineering them out of a few one liners in the bible. Most of their doctrine is in the book of acts which they will use a few liners from other texts to support it. They take a few one-liners out the bible and try to chastize Catholics for calling priests father and following traditions. They bastardize Mathew 23:9 “Call no man on earth your father for there is only one father in heaven” They use this quote to say that this why Catholics are wrong for priests being father. Even though when you read ALL of Matthew 23 it has to do with people being arrogant. They are very adamant about tithing ,i.e. giving 10% of your income to the church. I did research and found that tithing was only a Jewish doctrine that only applied to land owners and was only valid during the reign of the Levitican priest. and had nothing to do with ones monetary income. The only time tithing involved money was if you lived to far from the livite temple to carry your tenth livestock than you can sell the beast for money and take that money to the city of the temple and buy whatever your heart desireth. Another ox, "Strong drink" i.e. booze and take the item in the temple and rejoice i.e. Get your drink on. The only time in history it involved cash was in the 14th century the Charlemagne convinced the Catholic Church to adopt it. The Catholics adopted it as a discipline not a doctrine which means you wont go to hell for not paying. It has long since been abolished in lieu of free giving give what you can and not what you cant. They believe the bible to be one and all infallible word of god, and anything that supplements to further explain its meaning it i.e. tradition or other historical texts are “adding to it” or are some part of a conspiracy from the “whore of Babylon” i.e. the Catholic Church”. They are very arrogant in their faith, not that they are arrogant people, but if you can prove an argument of theirs as being a fallacy they will tell you that you do not understand because you don’t have the Holy spirit. Once blessed by the holly spirit you can be your own infallible interpreter of the bible. However, if you don’t understand something you can go to your middleman i.e. your pastor and get a better interpretation. This is another hypocrisy that they criticize the catholic church for because you should be able to read the bible and study for yourself. They will tell you to have an open mind about their faith but refuse to do the same. This religion lacks common sense and fundamental reason. They draw very erroneous conclusions about things that I can go on and on about. They are very demanding in their worship. The biggest hypocrisy of there faith is the way they sell it. “Study for your self and become your own judge of what the bible is saying.” It is absolutely forbidden to question the pastor on any matters of faith you may feel that he may have made an error. I guess god made the bible to be a cookbook to form your own church. Get baptized speak in tongues and you to will be infallible to start your own church. If their church is a representation of the creation of the universe Jupiter would have smacked in to earth a million years ago. In their church service the pastor has does not speek on one specific theme rather than bounces all over the bible reading one or two versus and then going of in mantra of what it means. Ironically he needs to scream at the top of his lungs to speak because of all the chaos. People in one corner doing their own thing. Grown men running around the pews with their hands in the air. A cluster of parishioners in another corner displaying a melodramatic scene, while the woman to the left of you is “speaking in Tounges”. Girls balling their eyes out. Old woman chanting hallelujah, hallelujah ….. for the entire hour. It was the most chaotic church service I ever witnessed. I feel that they are passionate about their faith, but way misguided. They are a flock of sheep that are not lost, just outside the pen and unable to find their way in. I suggest every Pentecostal to read C.S. Lewis's Scrutape Letters. You may find that satan is working in your church by the arrogant stance they take. (Message edited by rhino_co on April 25, 2005) | ||
| turtle (turtle) Member Username: turtle Post Number: 94 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.25 |
rhino_co, what faith are you? | ||
| rhino_co (rhino_co) New member Username: rhino_co Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.220.89.38 |
I was lost for many years in faith. I dabbled in other religions Buddist, shintoisms and then considered non-denominational Christianity, then one day I found a road that lead to Rhome! (Message edited by rhino_co on April 25, 2005) | ||
| turtle (turtle) Member Username: turtle Post Number: 96 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.40 |
Not all pentecostals are Jesus Only or pentecostal oness. Some pentecostal churches are baptist in doctrine or methodist. I have seen different kinds of pentecostals. YOu just have to be careful which kind you are in. | ||
| doug_parrish (doug_parrish) New member Username: doug_parrish Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.85.214.9 |
Hi, Rhino and Turtle. I've seen yall post on other threads and you both seem to be passionate and sincere, as well as very able to intelligently discuss your points-of-view. When I post, I do my best to differentiate between what is my opinion and what I know for fact. I'm going to do my best, and if I'm unclear please let me know. From my experience many Pentecostals are very devout, sincere people. They believe in living a simple life in a way that glorifies God, including the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues. The only true way of salvation is the Blood of Christ, the tongues are but one manifestation of the Holy Spirit (prophecy, teaching, etc are others), and there is a strong belief in One God with three manifestations (or offices). Rhino, what you are describing really sounds like the United Pentecostal Church. This is one pentecostal denomination among many, and falls in line with what Turtle is saying. I have heard (this is only rumor/heresay) there are Roman Catholic churches that now have pentecostal services. Any way, to sum it up, I've now come to view the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as being the enabling force that allows people to minister in complete obedience, with a holy boldness. It's so much deeper than speaking in tongues, although I do not try to minimimalize that gift. I realize I write similar to a "stream of consciousness" style, so if any of this is unclear, again, it won't offend me if you correct me or don't understand. God Bless all. Doug P. | ||
| turtle (turtle) New member Username: turtle Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.15 |
Doug P. you are right on target in my way of thinking and believing. Curious what denomination are you from are you a minister or plan to be or just doing some research. | ||
| doug_parrish (doug_parrish) New member Username: doug_parrish Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.85.214.9 |
Hi, Turtle. I'm glad I wasn't reading too much into what you were describing, or making false assumptions. I try to be VERY careful about that. My denomination...hmmm..great question. Here's what I consider myself for a few different categories: Praise and Worship: pentecostal Lifestyle: holiness (not legalism, just "cutting away the dead flesh" and trying to live a life pleasing to God...but I don't ever expect to see myself in stained glass :') Preaching preference: conservative Baptist Ministering/outreach: Methodist Faith: A simple faith that Christ did the work, I have to accept that, repent of my sins, and try every day to grow. (Oversimplified for the sake of brevity) I currently attend a Methodist church that defies a lot of stereotypes. This particular church meets several of my preferences. To answer your question about ministering: I think we're all called to minister in some capacity, but I hold no official office. I've given some thought to it, but I'm awaiting confirmation from the Holy Spirit. Currently I feel called to be a teacher moreso than preacher or evangelist (etc). Right now I feel the study and research is for personal spiritual growth, but it may be preparation. I'll have to wait and see. God Bless all. Doug P. | ||
| turtle (turtle) New member Username: turtle Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.42 |
I Really liked your answer. I agree with you. But I find myself in a Pencostal Holiness church at the present that teach like baptist but sing and worship like pencostals. I teach a small bible study group. But was raised Southern Baptist and in a conservative up bringing. I find myself leading fundamental on more issue for this day and time. I think mainly because fewer people seem to really be reading there bible. And Yes holiness in lifestyle but not legalistic or emotionalism either. | ||
| rhino_co (rhino_co) New member Username: rhino_co Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.220.89.38 |
I have heard (this is only rumor/heresay) there are Roman Catholic churches that now have pentecostal services. Hopefily I can clear up some confusion. The only thing that may make catholic churches seem like pentecostal is that the catholic church also refers it self as an Aposolic church being from the fact that we have a documented Succession of the Papacy that can be traced all the way down to St. Peter. The catholic church does follow the book of acts, but they also follow the other readings as well. The one thing that would make a catholic church appear "Pentecostal" is that there are some "Novas ordenun" (New Order) parishes particularly from California that are taking a "more Liberal" Prayer posture from traditional churches. They are doing things like playing rock music and dancing. There is one thing different though. The church would rather they did not do this kind of mass but there is not anything to stop it, as long as they perform the required components of every mass. Every Mass must have the Hymily, the lord’s prayer and the “Holy Mass” which is the concentration of the Eucharist(Bread and Wine). As long as it has those three components it is a valid mass, everything else is just an enhancement of the prayer posture. Some masses such as a mass during wartime in a combat zone will have only the 3 components and be brief as possible, with very little added to the prayerposture. During the Holy Mass and the Hymiley everyone must be either standing(Handicap or excluded for obvious reasons) or sitting together. This is where we differ from other churches in that respect. No matter what the prayer posture is an any one catholic church there is one thing that is unique to the church. No matter where you are in the world, the required components will be the same. You can go to a church in china and here the same Hymaly being as one being read a church in Kansas or any where else in the world. | ||
| jason_stone (jason_stone) Intermediate Member Username: jason_stone Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.78.217.192 |
Turtle, if you worship like pentecostals. Then you should really know what I am talking about when I say being led by he Spirit. Surely you know what that means. And, what exactly do you mean you believe like baptist. I have heard of Holy Ghost baptist. Is that what you are referring to. I think that is great. Of course I can't agree with everything you might believe. Or vice versa. But, it makes me happy to know you believe in the Holy Ghost. Do you speak it tongues like other pentecostals? | ||
| turtle (turtle) New member Username: turtle Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.39 |
jason yes I do speak in tongues and my husband has gift of interpetation but does not usually interpets me. Usually someone else in the church. I have read some of your other post Jason Stone. One thing we do disagree is on trinity. But I wont' address this right now. You mention on another page you dont' agree once saved always saved. YOu know that is baptist doctrine. I Like to address it here if you don't mind. Once saved always saved. The fact we are saved by grace not by works. Works are a sign of salvation but even you know that their people you have works and no nothing of salvation. I have ran into a few pencostal churches that say you have to have works. But look at the thief that Christ promised would be with him in paradise. He did not have time to have any works or any show of salvation but Christ knew his heart. I believe in a holiness lifestyle. Meaning If I am saying Christ saved me I am suppose to be setting an example for other people. Christ told the adultress to sin no more. Actually alot of people Christ told to sin no more after healing them. But humans are flesh. We have a natural sin nature. Even though I am saved from the time I meet Christ and he is able to take care of all my sins from even after that day it doesnt' give me a license to sin. yet I still do make mistakes. So I must continue asking for God's forgiveness to keep me in right relationship to him. Sin separated us from God. But remember when Christ washed the disciples feet in John 13. Peter asked him to wash his intire body. And Christ told him he did not need his entire body clean just his feet. WE need a daily cleanessing or washing of our heart so to speak not our intire body after we are saved. Christ paid for all our sins once and for all when we believe on him. God Grace is wonderful. But when we except God's free gift we have a natural desire to follow him. And if we desire this we will keep his commandments. Dough P. Might want to add or subtract from some of what I said curious of how will he thought I explained it considering he is from similiar doctrinal background. | ||
| jason_stone (jason_stone) Intermediate Member Username: jason_stone Post Number: 127 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.78.216.9 |
That is wonderful you speak in tongues, and, someone interprets. I friends who are trinity so I really do not have a problem with it. I just don't down anyone for being trinity, but, I would ask the same courteousness from them. I believe you can lose salvation thru unbelief. God broke off the Jews because of their unbelief. We are Jews spiritualy speaking. And, he would do the same to us. James 2:24 yE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY. The theif had one work of faith, he professed Jesus to be onnocent and Lord. And, like we should be, he was crucified with him. Our flesh should be crucified with him. Faith without works is dead, you can't have faith and have no works to show it. James 2:22 SEEST THOU HOW THOU HAST FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT. Our faith is perfected by our works. Our works come becuase we love him and follow his teachings and commandments. We love him becuase he first loved us and gave himself for us. We can be saved by grace thru faith. But, faith without works is dead. So without works we have no faith, without faith we are not under grace, and without grace we are not saved. | ||
| doug_parrish (doug_parrish) New member Username: doug_parrish Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.85.214.9 |
Rhino, Thanks for that explanation. That cleared me up nicely.  I have very little knowledge of the Catholic church so I appreciate that synopsis. Turtle, I wouldn't want to comment on your beliefs and practices even though we are strikingly similar. No offense, I just don't want to sound presumptuous. Your description of holiness is one of the most simple, beautiful descriptions I have heard in quite a while, though. Doctrinally, it sounds as if many of the people on this thread are very similar, at least in what they write. For example, the first work is salvation. That work was done for us, we just have to accept it. By that I mean we have to yield to the Holy Spirit, and accept Christ's work. Turtle's examples of (paraphrase) being washed clean of sin, not living a sinful life, but occaisonally messing up (sinful nature) and having to do the first work over speaks of this. It also rhymes closely with my understanding of what Jason is saying. After we get saved, we're supposed to live like we're saved, the best we can, according to what we get from God's word (through study and prayer). Rhino, I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth, but this sounds like a point you addressed in your first post on this thread, about studying the Word, and if need be, ask the pastor (or whatever you call them in the Catholic church, please pardon my ignorance). Living like we're saved also includes reaching out, which is what I think Jason refers to in the 5/11/05 8pm post. Salvation is a vertical relationship with God through Christ, and a horizontal relationship with people. One thing that helped persuade me to join the church I presently attend is that we have 93 different ministries. I don't remember the exact number, but a great deal of them are outreach, meaning serving a community other than that which attends our church. Rhino, I'm not trying to stir up the pot. Do you feel Pentecostalism is a cult? The only reason I'm asking is that this forum is about cults. You have been very clear about your preference for an orderly service, and have helped clear up some details for me. I was hoping you would do the same on this one point. Turtle and Jason, I'm going to ask a favor. If Rhino does feel Pentecostalism is a cult, let's not rake him over the coals the way I have observed people doing to each other on different threads. That's not very Christ-like. I've seen name-calling, personal attacks, threats, even cussing. I think we can keep the same tone we have so far, that is, focus on facts and opinions without resorting to behavior that wouldn't make Christ look glorified. I'll do my best to do the same. I apoligize for the length. God Bless all. Doug P. | ||
| turtle (turtle) New member Username: turtle Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.20 |
When I here the term works or producing fruit. This is what I think Helping others showing them Christ in me and that he is working in my life. Leading people to Christ and preaching the word. Demostrating the fruits of the Spirt Like in Galations 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, " | ||
| doug_parrish (doug_parrish) New member Username: doug_parrish Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.85.214.9 |
That is my understanding, also. I'm also inclined to lend a helping hand. It's not listed as a fruit of the Spirit, but is illustrated through the parable of the good Samaritan. I hope that's not considered "adding to the Word," but actually interpreting a parable and applying it to my life. I could go on and on about all the wonderful blessings I've had from God, but my posts already tend to be long. :') God Bless all. Doug P. | ||
| turtle (turtle) New member Username: turtle Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.20 |
rhino_co, i would like to ask you a question. YOu mentioned what your mass is like at anytime do they have preaching and if not when do you all have bible study time as a group. I have had several catholic friends in my childhood but never thought to ask much about the service. I even attend a mass once with a friend in college. But all I really remember is a priest speaking words I did not understand. So would you mind answer these questions. | ||
| rhino_co (rhino_co) New member Username: rhino_co Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.220.89.38 |
To be fair about the cult question I will first preface it, by saying I have only been to two Pentecostal services in my life. One was in New Mexico and the other in Oklahoma, the later being the most recent. My experiences are also related to several conversations about the faith that I had with the individual that invited me to the Oklahoma church. I would not say that it is a cult in the strict sense that we perceive a cult, such as the Branch Davidian Mormons or the JW’s. However, I feel that they exhibited some cult like behaviors. The first action that they did to exhibit cult like behavior is in their exclusiveness to themselves. This exclusiveness is not an outward one. On the surface they have an outward appearance of inclusiveness among strangers in their midst. But inwardly I feel that this is more a function on their desire to proselytize a stranger to make them part of what they consider a proper Christian to be, i.e. building up their church. On that note the fact that they are so adamant about proselytizing people to their way of thinking (brainwashing) is also another trait of cult like behavior. It seemed that they believe that they are the only ones being saved and that unless you saw it their way you were going to hell. Because of this I feel that they exhibited a sense of self-righteousness about themselves. I will say I have mixed feelings about them. I feel that they are fanatics, and have some erroneous understandings about the meanings of the bible, even though they may be able to recite it line by line. I feel that although they are very passionate about their faith, that they are misguided. I felt that they focus more on how not to be a good Christian than on how to be a good one. And the last thing that disturbed me was their casual take on the end times. I am not going to get on a tangent discussing revelations, except that the apocalyptic writings are synonymous with parables that were used in the Old Testament. Their casual understanding that God is just going to drop the Hammer on humanity and that only the very few that got it right perfectly right is disturbing. They casually talk about the fact that there is 144,000 Jews that will go to heaven and the rest are doomed for eternity. This is where I feel that they are exhibiting another cult like trait. One in fact that is almost as disturbing as the Heavens Gate. I feel that they have an obsession with the end of the world to a very unhealthy level. They are always talking about being prepared. They pray that the rapture will happen now so that they do not have live in this world anymore, which I feel is an outward sign of depression and other emotional issues. I feel that this fanatic desire to be raptured is in itself seems to me to be anti-Christian and exhibits some selfish as well as self-righteous behaviors.(Not saying they are selfish people) Knowing that half of civilization will end as we know it by planes crashing because the crew got “raptured” as well as other massive disasters of suffering and tribulation, to me seems kind of morbid. I feel that that some of them fanatic about this, that want an easy way out this world, short of committing suicide. I know my critique of them may seem harsh. I do not fault the members of this church or look down at them as people. I do however, critically find the way they as a group view God and faith very disturbing. I think most of them were warm compassionate people despite my critique. I hope I do not offend anyone as that is not my goal. I know my critique probably sounds brash and that I am knocking them. I am simply stating how I personally feel about my limited experiences with the church members of the Pentecostal church that I sat in. I do not feel that they are a cult that is going to kill themselves like the Heavens Gate, but I feel that some of them have an unhealthy view of the end of the world. (Message edited by rhino_co on May 13, 2005) | ||
| rhino_co (rhino_co) New member Username: rhino_co Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.220.89.38 |
To answer the questions about the Catholic mass the answer is yes and yes. The Priest will usually incorporate preaching with the Homily. The Priest will read scripture from the bible and then explain how it can be applied today. And sometimes the Priest will preach on a faith and morality issue that the church considers to be a hot. This usually comes down from the Arch-Daisies and the Vatican. We have two types of group bible studies. One is the catechism class of the church. A layman rather than a priest usually teaches this. These classes focus more on the scriptures and traditions that pertain to the doctrine of the church. Some priests will hold a “Bible” study one day a week where he will focus on teaching the meaning of a specific book in the bible. He will stay on that book for one week to a few months and then move two another. These are held in an informal classroom type setting versus a church like service. The church also encourages parishioners to hold bible studies on their own as well. Although, they suggest supplementing these studies with some guidance to help fulfill the meanings of the scripture as they are pertinent to churches teachings. Contrary to some beliefs amongst some Non-Denominational Christians, that the Catholic Church does not want laymen reading the Bible, is far from the truth. The church encourages and wants people to read the scripture, however they recommend that you discuss your readings with clergy or very studied laymen in order to prevent erroneous interpretations. Based on the catholic faith we believe that the scripture is supplemented by traditions that have been passed down to Peter, and that the Pope is the central teaching authority who has the sole duty of preserving the meanings as they have been passed down through this papel succession. Of course I am well aware that this contradicts most modern Non-D Christians, that believe the bible alone is the soul source of the word of God Proclaimed. Hopefully I have provided some more insight into my faith Peace | ||
| doug_parrish (doug_parrish) New member Username: doug_parrish Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 207.69.136.201 |
Rhino, Thanks for clearing that up for me, and for answering Turtle's question. It "seems to me" that you are a level-headed person who, at the time of the first post, was upset about an experience or something. (Opinion only.) Your points are well taken. I agree that the church as a whole is fractured around individual interpretations that eventually lead to a denomination, or in some cases, a cult. I'd just like to share my experiences with two different Pentecostal churches. I was involved with two Pentecostal churches, different denominations, but practically identical in doctrine (Church of God, and Pentecostal Holiness). This involvement spanned approximately 10 years. My experiences in some part paralleled yours: there are folks out there who exhibit cult-like behavior. There are branches of the Pentecostal movement that meet all the criteria for being cults. It sounds like you went to one of the more cult-like Pentecostal churches (such as United Pentecostal). Yes, there are COG that handle snakes. The one I went to did not. Yes there are PH churches that are seemingly chaotic. The one I went to might fit your description of chaos. I have to 100% agree with you that "most" of the people in these two churches were sincere, enthusiastic people, and that there are frequently "bad apples" mixed in. I'm not in the business of giving advice, but I'd like to suggest that if you do end up in another Pentecostal church for some reason, if you have any say so in the matter, try one whose denomination has been around a while. I went to one here in town that the only difference between this COG and a Baptist church was the name on the door. (Well, that and some minor doctrinal differences...) You are a very eloquent writer. Your style is much easier to read than mine. And again I appreciate you clarifying for Turtle and me. God Bless all. Doug P. | ||
| turtle (turtle) New member Username: turtle Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.54 |
Thank you for the insight into the catholic church service. I do appreciate it. I have been associating with the Pencostal Holiness Church for six months plus six months before that was in an extreme pencostal church that was trying to be plant a church so to speak. Also have had some dealings with the COG. The church I am in seems almost baptist except for being pencostal. But after seeing an extreme pencostal church I do not wish to see it again. There are good pencostals and bad ones this I do agree on. Some groups do seem clickish which scares me. Because Christ is for all people not just a certain group and if we try to separate people based on dress or differences it would not be Christ Like. Jesus spoke to all types of people. But it is sad when churches seem to separate themselves. They can not grow or reach out to a lost world. But I have seen prejudices even in mainstream churches. I think people have a natural tendious to separate themselves from people unlike them. But as a Christian we can not be like that. But on the flip side I can see why also church tend to be clickish. I seen an extreme side of a group distorting the word fo God. Churches are protective of there beliefs and must be in order to keep some type of order. Even Catholics know they have to keep order to maintain doctrinal beliefs. What is sad there are times when leaderships in churches go against what God taught. And think this is what can cause splits or fractions of different groups. Beside the obvious people being mislead. Each church out of catholism tend to be a separate indenty to itself despite general doctrines. What scares me most is having teachers and preachers in the pulpit tha may not be believers but really wolves. People tend to follow the leader even groups that say they dont. I see this in even in my bible study group. I have a little old lady that sees these tv preachers on tv and says I believe in them. That terrifies me. It seems to me the past several weeks I been stressing the reliance on Jesus Christ. That Christ is who we believe in and to follow his teachings and what the bible says. Focus off of man and focus on God. He is the one that changes life and has the power to save. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Junior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 209.179.168.56 |
Hi, I just wanted to share some of my experiences and knowledge to this discussion. It is interesting to me. Rhino, As others have shared with you the Pentecostal Denomination that you are talking about is a small section of Pentecostalism called United Pentecostal or First United Pentecostal. The major Pentecostals, Examples - Assembly of God, Foursquare, (please see their websites), and most Pentecostals do not hold to some of the points that you started this thread with: 1. Jesus Only Baptism - No other Pentecostal group that I am aware of holds to that form of Baptism except United Pentecostals. They believe in an early church false teaching called Sabellianism, (named after Sabellius), that believes that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the Trinity, Jesus is God Only. They could be Christians, not like the Arius viewpoint that denies the Trinity. In 326 AD at the Council of Nicaea the Nicene Creed was formed declaring that Jesus Christ is God of God, True God of True God, Begotten not made, BEING OF ONE SUBSTANCE OF THE FATHER. Almost all Pentecostals with the exception of the above group, accept the Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian Creed, even if their members do not know anything about the Creeds. The Creeds are Scripturally true and Biblically supportable. 2. Many Greek Orthodox also believe in immersion, only in their case it is for infants. Baptizo does mean immersion and many Protestants do believe that this is the correct form of Baptism. We are believing this for the reason that the Scriptures support this method, we do not accept Tradition equal to the Scriptures. 3. Speaking in Tongues is the evidence of salvation for only a small section of Pentecostalism, again Assembly of God and Foursquare do not agree with this idea. Neither do Charismatics, including, I will add, Catholic Charismatics. Salvation is not the Baptism of the Spirit. You may want to look up some of the Charismatic Catholic sites to get a viewpoint that is basically the same as most Pentecostals and Charismatics. The Rapture - Baptist overemphasize this event also. It is best to be ready to meet the Lord Jesus Christ whenever He takes us up. Worship - Pentecostals need to practice 1 Corinthians 14. The liturgy can be dead for many liturgical churches. Have you ever been to a good dancing Catholic Charismatic meeting? You should try it! The Book of Acts - Many Pentecostals do take a one-liner stance. We all need to look at the total context of Scripture for our doctrines. Criticize - Some Pentecostals criticize Baptists more than Catholics, and with good reason! Father - Throw out the fact of Paul being the "spiritual father" of Timothy if you have any problem with a critical Protestant. Tithing - I don't know if Protestant churches are as strict on that as you say we are. I have never seen it. Scripture - Protestants believe that Scripture is Inerrant, Catholics believe in Scripture and Tradition. It is true, that in throwing out Tradition many Protestants throw out The Creeds and everything from the Catholic Church from 200 AD to 1500 AD. Baptists are really worse on this point than Pentecostals. I'm a Protestant Charismatic that knows the Creeds, believes the Creeds, can say the Creeds and one of the reasons I'm a Charismatic/Pentecostal is because I know that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit never ceased. They have been in the Catholic Church since the Apostolic Age. Look up St. Columba 521-597 on the Catholic Online website and see the Gift of Prophecy really in action. Different Division of Protestants - What you state above is the same argument that Eck used on Luther in 1521 at the Diet of Worms. I'm a Protestant, I can't argue about this. There is another thread where one guy believes exactly the same Pentecostal Doctrine as the other and it seems to me he is knocking a 75 year old leader of the Foursquare Denomination because the leader categorized a "word" as a Gift of Knowledge rather than a Gift of Prophecy. How foolish can we Protestants be? Worship Service - Oh no! What a horrible demonstration of a Pentecostal service that you went to! I have visited many Pentecostal Churches and Charismatic Churches, we are not usually that disorderly! They need the order that Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 14! Try a Catholic Charismatic service sometime. The usual Pentecostal Service is not like that. I am a Protestant. The reasons are the same as stated by Luther at the Diet of Worms in 1521. Also, like Luther, I don't throw all of the teachings of the Catholic Church away, just the ones that are obviously not Scripturally supportable by the Word of God and...what can I say...my conscience. Erich | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Junior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 209.179.141.197 |
Hi, I just wanted to clarify a few points that I made above: I do not have all the Creeds memorized. I have the Apostles Creed memorized, several lines of the Nicene Creed, and several lines of the Athanasian Creed. The concepts I understand of the latter two and agree with. My dig about Baptist is not to all Baptist. I am talking about Baptist that are "Dispensationalists", they do not believe that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are in operation today, that they all stopped at the Apostolic Age, and basically reject all history and tradition of the Catholic Church. It is that segment of Baptists that I have problems with. Erich | ||
| doug_parrish (doug_parrish) New member Username: doug_parrish Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 198.85.214.9 |
Hi, Erich. Well said! Wow, I'm going to have to categorize you right up there with Rhino and Jason as far as being able to remember all this information! I hate to run off on a tangent on this board, but I'm going to ask you the same favor I asked of Jason. Could you share with me where yall learn all this stuff? Some of it I am familiar with, some of it I am not. I'm always interested in learning more. In the interest of not filling up the DF with this kind of info, feel free to email me if you so wish. dopar66@yahoo.com Thanks, Erich. | ||
| jason_stone (jason_stone) Intermediate Member Username: jason_stone Post Number: 166 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.78.216.171 |
I don't understand how people can say that Jesus name people got their beliefs from someone they never even heard of. The people I know who believe it didn't get it from any man but by revelation from God. As far as the trinity goes, I can not accept it just becuase a group of scholars established it. It was not the teaching of the Apostles at all. It was established hundreds of years later. Before that there were some who believed in it. Bringing their plato type philosophy into their beliefs. No where is God mentioned as being three seperate persons. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord. It is not a seperate person. Every church, whether they admit it or not, have cult like behaviors. Most believe only the ones in their denomiantion will be saved. Not necassary their own church, but, their denomination. I do not believe in denomiantions at all. We are not supposed to belong to Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal, ect. We are supposed to belong to Jesus. No denomination is going to be saved. Only the people who belong to Jesus. And, I am sure in every denomination there is someone who does. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Junior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 209.179.168.35 |
Jason, I did not say that Jesus name people got their beliefs from Sabellius. Here is my quote: "They believe in an early church false teaching called Sabellianism, (named after Sabellius), that believes that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not the Trinity, Jesus is God Only. They could be Christians, not like the Arius viewpoint that denies the Trinity." The Arius viewpoint is like the Jehovah Witness doctrinal ideas that believed that Jesus is separate from the Father and calls Jesus "a" god. The Jesus name people believes the same point as a Trinitarian believes that Jesus Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh, One with the Father. Though I believe in the Trinity, the point of salvation regarding Jesus is whether one believes that Jesus Christ is the one and only God that Scripture talks about, "Yahweh". Is. 44:6. Both the Jesus name and the Trinitarian believe that way regarding this concept. An interesting dialogue occured on the Ankerberg Show in a debate of Walter Martin vs. an authority in the United Pentecostal Church, where Walter Martin calls him "his brother" and goes on to explain what I have just written. Better to forget Hank Hannegraff on doctrines like this. Here is a brief explanation of why one believes in the Trinity. The reason a Trinitarian believes in the Trinity is that it is a logical conclusion to Scriptures showing the Father and Jesus apart in a certain sense. For example: If Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father, as Scripture says, in some, (as the Athanasian Creed says), "uncomprehensible", way they are different. The mind really is not able to understand all of the subject. In Sunday School class I have pointed out that in Isaiah 9:6 that Jesus' name shall be called the "Everlasting Father". I have received challenging reactions from people who really think doctinally that Jesus is not One with the Father, and do not really know Him as the Almighty One. This doesn't mean that I don't believe in the Trinity, it only means that part of it is "uncomprehensible" to my mind. Please understand that when I say that the veiwpoint of the Jesus name people are false teaching, that is not to be taken that a Jesus name person is a heretic, or unsaved. It is that I consider it to be not correct, therefore false. You are correct in the points that you make above about every denomination have problems and that is why we need Jesus. Now to your point above that a person can lose their salvation, (an anti-eternal security, or anti-once saved always saved), I totally agree with this. My wife was a Baptist that believed that way before we were married and I challenged her from the Scriptures, and she changed her mind, you can't prove that doctrine of eternal security, especially extreme eternal security from the Scriptures. Erich | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 240 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
pentacostalism is not full of holes. we beleive the BIBLE to be the WORD OF OUR LORD. it is so sad when people claim to be a CHRISTIAN and still deny GOD. i dont bother other people who say they are saved but do not beleive like i do. if they live right and dont deny GODS WORD, I JUST GO ON BELEIVING WHAT I BELEIVE. | ||
| am2 (am2) New member Username: am2 Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
Why shoul it matter what denomination you are if you are a follower and beleiver of christ? In heaven, I dont think God is giong to have a seprate section for baptists, pentacostals, cathlics or methodists. Its Christ who saves, not religion. | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 267 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
am2, no it doesnt matter what religion you are if you are a beleiver in JESUS CHRIST GODS SON and have accepted HIM into your heart i was merely stating that i was pentacostal and also that i do not beleive that pentacostalism is full of holes | ||
| turtle (turtle) Member Username: turtle Post Number: 88 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 151.199.115.125 |
Erich, I was looking at your post above. And was thinking devil still deceives the same way he did over thousands of years ago. Spreading lies and falsehoods from one generation or not even though a generation but starting with a new group that doesn't have a desire to know the word of God. This oneness pencostal or Jesus name only People are just like that. Boy I will get bashed I expect for that statement by some oness person but that is okay. | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 356 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
hello turtle, as you know i am not..not oneness. i am trinity. thank GOD. i believe in the gifts of the SPIRIT, and practice them. i do not feel i am fanatical in any way except maybe when some attack my beliefs in THE TRINITY nd the GIFTS. | ||
| anoynomous (anoynomous) New member Username: anoynomous Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 64.53.137.20 |
WHAT SOME PEOPLE FAIL TO REALIZE IS PENTECOSTAL MEANS THAT THEY BELIEVE AND PRACTISE WHAT HAPPENED ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST. THE DAY THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER CAME THE HOLY GHOST. AND IF YOU READ ACTS CHAPTER 1 & 2 YOU WILL FIND OUT. NOT ONLY DID THEY SPEAK IN TONGUES WHEN THEY WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST PETER ALSO TOLD PEOPLE TO BE BAPTISED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. OH YEA REMEMEMBER MARY THE MOTHER OF JESUS WAS IN THE UPPER ROOM. SHE BIRTH JESUS AND HAD TO GET FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST. JUST READ THE BOOK OF ACTS | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 612 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
amen thank GOD FOR THE INFILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 685 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
praise THE LORD. i know i am saved. you know when one gets saved or says they are saved then thye tell a lie in the very next breath... something is wrong. you cant accuse some one of something if you do not have proof of it. i have been accused of haveing someones email add. and messing with them this is right when they said they were saved. now it is a lie when they say that i have their email add. i do not never saw it never written them will not write them. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 690 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
can any one tell me why some one who doesnt believe in tongues gets on this board and downs all who do believe in them. i am not talking about freedom of useing the board for i am glad of thier views but when they say i or others are not saved and use bad lanquage along with it... i just cant understand why they do such things and still say they are saved and ready to go????? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1122 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.40.206 |
arron, I believe you when you say you did not do what 'not' is accusing you of. I can't imagine you using that kind of language. Someone is playing a cruel trick. Believe me, you are not the only one offended when I see bad language used here or at any time. People are who they are. Pray for those who spitefully abuse you. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 698 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
thanks godchild.. i dont knw where they even got that iwas writting to their email. i dont have it never seen it or written ti him( i just found out he is a him )sometime i cant spell right or even type right but i do love THE LORD. no i do not use any kind of cuss words. also i dont know how to find someones email either or where they write from. i cant even contact the ghost i the machine or what ever. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1126 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.40.250 |
arron, If you ever want to contact 'the ghost in the machine', look on the left side of your screen. Under FACTNet- then utilities, you will see contact. Click on there. This part of the screen will show 'ghost in the machine' underlined and I think in pink. Click on it. If not cannot show evidence but keeps accusing you, contact them. You don't have to take such tormenting words. I hope not will realize his mistake and apologise to you so this will be over and done. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1133 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.47.193 |
not, How do you think someone can defend themselves with such an accusation. If you notice, I wrote that message to arron last night. It looks like the two of you have worked it out. It would have been one thing if you hadn't splashed your accusation all over. That is not fair. A man would have given him a chance to defend himself. So you don't need to jump on me. You make your bed, you lie in it. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 726 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
godchild thanks so much.... to not i have already written to you on another thread. i again apologise for the inconveince you havae. i did not write to your email still dont know it. i am trying as i told you to find out who did. so far it come back undeliverable address , the one you gave me as the one who wrote to you. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 806 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
god child.. are you pentecostal? just wanted to know | ||
| tunetimewithtiny New member Username: tunetimewithtiny Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 68.53.231.106 |
MY CHURCH OF GOD http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1738584860 www.myspace.com/gospiltimewithtiny COME VISIT MY BLOG I PRAY MY MUSIC WILL BLESS YOUR SOULS THIS YEAR IM GONNA GO WHERE IM CALLED ID LOVE TO COME VISIT YOUR CHURCH TO SING OR PREACH LETS PRAISE THE LORD IN THIS YEAR 2007 | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3166 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.14.8 |
as i said i am pentecostal. it is a true religion and is not full of holes. we love THE LORD and serve HIM to the best of our ability. we do not let any tom dick and harry preach or do anything contrary to our church beliefs. some people want to come ot our churches and preach contrary to the doctrines we believe just ot be aaalbe to say they did or to try to "STRIAGHTEN " us out . well we do not need strighten out | ||
| ezekiel_37 Senior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 1614 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 206.186.79.91 |
Has anyone ever been to a Pentacostal Church where the practitioners and preachers DIDN'T speak in unknown tongues (hidden prayer language)? There is one like that near me and I went to it, after being told that the preacher did'nt "buy into" the 'allllllapenutbutrsndwichs'. I really did enjoy most of the service. You can feel the Spirit without speaking mumbo-jumbo. Any comments? Peace in Christ c | ||
| ezekiel_37 Senior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 1615 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 206.186.79.91 |
Has anyone ever been to a Pentacostal Church where the practitioners and preachers DIDN'T speak in unknown tongues (hidden prayer language)? There is one like that near me and I went to it, after being told that the preacher did'nt "buy into" the 'allllllapenutbutrsndwichs'. I really did enjoy most of the service. You can feel the Spirit without speaking mumbo-jumbo. Any comments? Peace in Christ c | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries New member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.25 |
I would suggest avoiding pentecostalism period. Your Ever Humble Servant, Rev. Sandy Bryant DD. Counter-cult Apologist | ||
| ezekiel_37 Senior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 1619 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 206.186.79.91 |
Hi there, t_a_t_m I agree, but I have friends in the denomination, and wanted to know if there are more non-babyl Pentacostal Church than just this one. May I ask a question? Why use Rev.? I thought that was a no-no...don't reverence man, Revear God. Call no man Father, but Our Heavenly Father? Peace in Christ c | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries New member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
Rev. is a legal title, much like Dr. Allow me to ask you a question. What do you see as God's opinion on homosexuality? What about a child molester? What about a child molesting homosexual? | ||
| ezekiel_37 Senior Member Username: ezekiel_37 Post Number: 1620 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 206.186.79.91 |
Those acts are abominations to God (as He states all through out His Word). Our Father loves all of us, but HATES many of our acts. Peace in Christ c | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries New member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
pentacostalism was founded on the vision of a child molesting homosexual. do you believe God gave a vision for an all new religion to a man God had already given over to a reprobate mind? Quoting: "Our Father loves all of us, but HATES many of our acts." End quote. I would hate to have to defend that with scripture. "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:13 (KJV)" Either God hated Esau or the Bible lied, your choice. | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 804 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 |
The Rev Dr. Sandy Bryant, I remember you from a while back, posting under a different name. One question, where did you receive your doctorate? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries New member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.42 |
I have always posted under the same name, sorry. | ||
| called Senior Member Username: called Post Number: 1565 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 138.89.140.117 |
Quote of ezekiel_37 """"May I ask a question? Why use Rev.? Quote of the_apostolic_truth_ministries, Rev. is a legal title, much like Dr Rev! Is a title given by man it does not come from scripture so therefore you are not ordained by God to use this title!!! Please see EPH 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; DO YOU SEE {REV} here??? 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; And just how can we be not children , tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; When we belong to this worldly Church system called Christendom divided literally into thousands of individual Groups each claiming to be hold the ultimate truth! Their all the synagogue of Satan and are leading all who belong to them straight into the lake of fire! | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 805 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.82.80.189 |
Sandy Bryant, You are correct; I realized that later. Please, if you would, answer the question of where you received your doctorate. | ||
| forest New member Username: forest Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 168.167.178.246 |
"I would suggest avoiding pentecostalism period". I couldn't agree with you more. "pentacostalism was founded on the vision of a child molesting homosexual. do you believe God gave a vision for an all new religion to a man God had already given over to a reprobate mind?" Exactly that. One doesn't need a doctorate or a theological diploma/degree to know this. One only has to research and read the history of pentecostalism to know what it's all about. (Message edited by forest on May 15, 2007) | ||
| mhead66 New member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
Forest / ATAM: Fred Phelps, the "Baptist preacher" in Kansas that attends funerals of Iraqi soldiers, celebrating their deaths, is not representative of all born again Baptists. Abortion clinic bombers, who kill to protest killing, are not representative of all born again pro-lifers (like myself). The Church of St. John the Divine, the Episcopal "church" in New York, that has a female Christ on its crucifix, with full breasts showing, is not representative of all Episcopals. "Bishop" John Wesley Spong, Episcopal Bishop of New Jersey, who claimed that John (the disciple who Jesus loved) and Jesus were gay lovers, is not representative of all Episcopal bishops. I can go on and on, but I think I've made my point. We can find impure representatives of all our branches of Christian faith, but to say that a few "bad apples" invalidates the message, or point of view, of our belief systems is mixing apples and oranges. Not all born again Christians that believe that God's Word teaches that there is a separate baptism of the Holy Spirit, for empowerment for witnessing, for empowerment for fully employing the gifts of the Spirit, are believers in the accusations many have labeled here. For example: 1. Tongues is necessary for salvation. The Bible doesn't say it, most charasmatics don't believe it, but we're accused of it endlessly. Spirit baptism likewise - not necessary for salvation, in most charismatics' view - including mine. 2. Jesus-name only baptism - not Biblical, not widely believed by most charismatics. 3. Arrogance - Individuals of every denomination can be arrogant - I don't believe charismatics have cornered that market. Spirit baptism and the gifts of the Spirit are by God's grace, not of a man's effort or superiority - exactly the same as salvation! Don't lump the fringe "charismatics" in with those who simply read the Scripture a bit differently that you. Many Christians disagree on the literal 6 day creation, but it is not a salvation issue. Don't treat it as such. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 131 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Mr. mhead66: Perhaps, we have found a secular issue to open conversation. Would you address the thirteen pentecostal preacher adjudicated quilty of gross immortality by a jury of their peers? Perhaps, you could address the twelve hundred favors of pentecostalism in less than one-hundred-years of existence? ps. The thirteen hundred preachers does not include: (just a few examples for the sake of brevity) 1. Peter Popoff, though exposed on national television as a fraud, he was not charged criminally. Mr. Popoff continues to draw large audiences and cash to pentecostalism. 2. Aimee Semple McPherson, Married five times, divorced four. 3. Kathryn Kulhman, died of a drug overdose after having an alleged abortion in Mexico. Ms. Kulhman was charged with filing a false police report (claiming to have been kidnaped). However, she was not prosecuted. Nor does it include thousands of other charged civilly, but not criminally. Jimmy Swaggart, for example, was found guilty in civil court for plagiarizing Finis Jennings Dake’s writings. Stealing someone’s written word is a civil offense, not a criminal offense. Would you like to hear about some of your Assembly of God preachers? | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 144 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
kulhman died of a heart aliment at an nage well past child bearing so it was not an aborotion that killed her amimie mchpherson was married once to robert semple who died then to macphearson who she devoriced then to one other man who she devouriced after only a few months. she was married three times and devoriced twice. kulhman never filed a kdnapping report and she did not die of a frug overdose amie died of a drug over dose ( perscription drugs not drugs off the street,) your "history: is very flawed. you your self have used others writtings and that is what swaggert did copy someone else. if some one give a preacher one millin dollars that is that persons business and not yours. tatm ..not... you are the liar | ||
| mhead66 New member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
TATM - I have repeatedly told you that I am NOT a member of the Assembly of God church, I am a Baptist. I don't know why you're trying to convince me that I'm guilty, because I read the Bible as do they. That was the entire point of my last thread, that some people in each of our denominations are guilty of mistakes, some terrible - but that doesn't make their point of view, based upon God's Word, incorrect. For example, Peter denied Jesus three times, and Paul "withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed," (Gal 2:11). Paul consented to Stephen's death, delivered early believers to be put to death, and called himself, the chief of sinners (1 Tim 1:15). Yet these two godly men were used by the Lord to win countless souls to Christ! We are all sinners. Besides, I have doubts about your facts: 1. Arron is correct - Kathryn Kuhlman died at the age of 69. I doubt that she was having an abortion at that age. See the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Kuhlman 2. Your website says that, and I quote: A well-known writer recently boastfully placed the membership of the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism at 500 million grossly deceived. Allow me to put that into perspective for you. The worlds oldest church, the Roman Church claims a membership of only 125 million. The worlds largest quote, unquote Protestant church, is the Southern Baptist Convention. SBC shows its membership at only 16.9 million. Infoplease claims that there are more than 1 billion Catholics worldwide, and so does my World almanac. http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0860782.html When your facts are false, it destroys the credibility of your argument. Do better research, try www.google.com. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Mr. Mhead66: To begin with Wikipedia is a "write you own encyclopedia." The information contained is worthless. If my facts, as you say, are wrong? Guess what? I relied on your religion for them! ps and by the by, when comparing or drawing equals, always compare apples to apples. When drawing parallels, use comparisons that are similar, analogous, or interdependent in tendency or development or exhibiting parallelism in form, function, or development or having identical syntactical elements in corresponding positions. Mr. Fred Phelps was not a child molester. Mr. John Wesley Spong was not booted from his pulpit for sodomy with little boys. None of the men you named invented their own religion. Charles Fox Parham was booted from his own pulpit (according to your religion’s own history) for sodomy with little boys. Then Mr. Parham moved down the road and invented your religion. Find an equal, please. | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 150 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
see mhead66 tatm.. or rahter not.. for that is the name he used to go by.. will never answer when he is wrong but will always bring up something else, some other teaching or something | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 136 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Mr. Arron: I am not wrong . . . wait a minute, yes I am. I was dead wrong to quote facts provided by your religion! | ||
| mhead66 Junior Member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
It's really sad that you claim to have read the Bible 200 times, but that you can't read one sentence that I provide. I have stated several times that I do not belong to any church founded by Charles Fox Parham. Can you understand these words? I am a Southern Baptist, who believes that EVERY verse in the New Testament applies to believers today. You keep trying to convince me that he is this horrible person - I don't care, he is dead, God is his judge, not I. That is between him and God. The Chairman of the SBC is Paige Patterson - I don't know him, but again, God is his judge. I hope you don't find him morally reprehensible. You're right, in that Wikipedia is a questionable source for information of Kathryn Kuhlman. However, Google has 145,000 hits on a search with her name, and I've read no where outside of your writing that she died before she was 69, or that she died after having an abortion. However, with such accusations, the burden of proof is on YOU. This is getting repetitious, defending my character because you disagree with my Biblical interpretation. I'm finished with it. I can better serve God by talking to reasonable people, even if they don't agree with me. With you, I'm guilty of 2 Timothy 2:23: "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strife." May God bless you. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
Mr. Mhead66: I'll play your game. Have your pastor contact me at cultministry@jesusanswers.com. I need the name and mailing address of the president of the Board of Deacons at your SBC church. I plan to file formal charges of damnable heresies against him. Twenty-four hours should be enough time to disprove your claim. | ||
| mhead66 Junior Member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
May God bless you... | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Intermediate Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 144 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.208.12.98 |
hehehehehhehehehehehehe | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 153 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
mhead66.... just stay firm in JESUS. not cant do anything. he is just a trouble maker for pentecostals and now i gues you baptist (just your church ) too. he may laugh but whne you laugh and make fun of the HOLY GHOST then you are in trouble | ||
| mhead66 Junior Member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
Arron, Christ is our solid Rock, all other ground is sinking sand! I invite you to christianforums.com, which has a Spirit-filled collection of believers that rejoice in the presence of Christ in our lives. There is joy in the movement of the Spirit; it's tragic that some people here have allowed their joy to be lost, in the interest of fostering a critical spirit. Peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ! I know that this forum does serve a useful purpose - I was reading a thread last night, I don't remember where - but a woman and her family had been held in spiritual bondage to a cult leader. It's heartbreaking, especially the effect it had on her teenage sons - she will be in my prayers. However, I came here to discuss various aspects of the charismatic viewpoint that we share. No one but me, you and our little buddy seems entirely interested, so maybe I'll see you at christianforums.com. If not, I'll see you at the feet of Jesus, when we'll cast our crowns in worship!!!!! God bless. mhead66 | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 155 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
mhead66 i tried to get on christianforum.com but could not get on there no matter how hard i tried can you get me on or tell me how | ||
| mhead66 Junior Member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
Arron Here is the link:http://www.christianforums.com/ I had trouble getting registered on one forum, and I sent an email to the moderators, and they got me on immediately. If, after you get there, you can't register or they don't give you access, click on contact, and tell them you're having trouble. If you still can't get on, let me know and I'll see if I can help. | ||
| mhead66 Junior Member Username: mhead66 Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2007 Posted From: 69.34.217.28 |
Arron - Just went to Christianforums, saw that you registered! Congrats, see you there! | ||
| arron Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 156 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.34.187 |
thanks for tellling me about them |
