| Author | Message | ||
     solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 468 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
I had the fun of watching a couple of Protestants arguing about the Bible the other day. One used the NIV and the other used the KJV and they went on for an hour or two right next to me in a waiting room. I wish that I had had a recorder with me, it was very entertaining. When they finally stopped to inhale again, I asked them if it's necessary to God's purposes that the Bible be 100% complete, inerrant and accurate, and they both said yes. They also each claimed that all of God's word is in the Bible, yet neither of them had a verse to offer from the Bible which said that. The most fun was when I asked the KJV user which version he used. He thought that there had only ever been one version! There's a thread here, "The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon," when really, the issue of the Bible vs. the Bible has yet to be decided. You people are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a comma, while ignoring the reason that there are angels in the first place! | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Heh, that was amusing Solopilot. It is just as amusing as when a Christian tells me that their bible which is in English translated from Latin translated from Greek is identical in meaning to my Hebrew bible. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot There's a thread here, "The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon," when really, the issue of the Bible vs. the Bible has yet to be decided What issues are they? Again Moromons trying to do there best to bring the bible down to the level of the BoM. I have asked for proof in another thread and lets compare the proofs of the bible and the BoM. When you have the proof on the table that can match the bible then start to compare. Why Solopilot do mormons like to attack the Bible when they themselves say they believe in it? I suggest you start another thread in in another section, Bible vrs bible, but I bet the BoM will finish up the topic most spoken of and refered to by the Mormons. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 52 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot I ask you, do you believe in the Bible? now that is an easy yes or no Can you answer yes or no or will there be strings attached. Nulla | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 473 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Nulla: Of course there are "strings attached," just as if I asked you "Do you BELIEVE?" You claim that you believe in the Bible. WHICH Bible do you believe in? And do you believe that that version of the Bible is 100% complete, accurate and inerrant? Why that version, and none of the others (all of which diverge from each other in one or more ways)? As far as proof, please show me evidence that the Red Sea was parted, that a woman turned into a pillar of salt, or that Lazarus was actually dead, then raised from death. For that matter, provide CONTEMPORARY, INDEPENDENT proof that Jesus even lived! You BELIEVE that he did, I BELIEVE that he did, but the Romans -- forerunners of the world's great bureaucracies -- have NO surviving record of his existance, being taxed, or his being sentenced to death. No report from a military commander or civil governor of a popular movement surrounding a man whose followers believed him to be their long-awaited Messiah, who was to sweep the invaders from Israel. Show me the map which proves which tomb was the one that Jesus arose from. For that matter, please corellate various of the events mentioned in the New Testament to their actual dates and times of occurence. We don't even have any original manuscripts of any book of the Bible, only copies of copies of copies, the oldest fragment of which is estimated to date back to the second century! Yet on this "evidence" (which would be thrown out of court) you claim to know exactly what Jesus did, said and thought, so everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong. So, bring me your proof of the Bible, Nulla. I'll put it to the same test as you put the Book of Mormon, and we will see how it stands up. OR -- and this is a big "or" -- agree with me that the Bible is not perfect, and that it suit's God's purposes that it not be, and we don't have to worry about proof, inconsistent translations, missing books and verses, or that doggonned COMMA which was added ONE THOUSAND, SIX HUNDRED-PLUS YEARS after the fact. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Solopilot So it seems again that the Holy Bible is under question again by mormons. How simple do you want it. I believe in the Holy Bible if you have a problem with that answer ask the Mormon.org site to be more specific. “The Holy Bible The Holy Bible testifies of Jesus Christ and has influenced and sustained millions of His followers. It is a collection of sacred writings containing God’s revelations and accounts of His dealings with His children in the Holy Land. The historical accounts in the Bible cover many centuries, from the time of Adam through the death of the Apostles. Likewise, the books of the Bible were written by and about prophets who lived at various times in the history of the world. As you probably know, the Bible is divided into the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament contains sacred texts written prior to the birth of Christ. Many prophets in the Old Testament foretell the coming of a Savior and Redeemer. The New Testament tells of the life of that Savior and Redeemer, who is Jesus Christ. It also tells of the establishment of His original Church. The above is from mormon.org I had to read this several times for I kept overlooking the part where it states that you must believe in a version.” Solopilot: you claim to know exactly what Jesus did, said and thought, so everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong. Show me the claims I have made to state that I know what Jesus said and thought or I state here and now you are a liar Solopilot trying your best as mormons do to discredit a persons integrity in the name of the lds. it is you who has the trouble coming to terms with people speaking out against your BoM. “OR -- and this is a big "or" -- agree with me that the Bible is not perfect, and that it suit's God's purposes that it not be, and we don't have to worry about proof, inconsistent translations, missing books and verses, or that doggonned COMMA which was added ONE THOUSAND, SIX HUNDRED-PLUS YEARS after the fact.” You said the above… are you having trouble coming to terms with the bible? I ask again please show me any archaeological evidence that shows the Nephites existed as said by god in the BoM. Do I need to send you the Encyclopaedia Britannica to look up Jews or Israelites. I have said before. Show me Archaelogical or DNA proof that the Nephites existed .If you do I will walk hand in hand with you down to the Smithsonian Institute to set the records straight. If you want to take the lines of faith alone then should we believe in Islam as the word of god, should we believe in the Upanishads as the word of god, The Bhagavid Gita, or of Buddhas Sutras. Those who believe in the various religions do so for faith. Mormons want to say they are Christian. I say you cannot be Christian if you believe in the BoM as being the word of god. I can go and marry at the registry office if I wanted. I would then still be a Christian. If you were to do the same and are Mormon and your prospective wife is not would she be a Mormon ? To be a Mormon is to believe in another book or have I got this wrong. In a court of law do they state which version of the Bible you are going to swear upon.. I can proudly say I believe in the bible. I have proudly said this before in these threads. I thought that it is best to refer mormons to; “Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said: "We are not an institution which has broken away from the Roman Catholic or any other church. We are not part of a reformation. We declare that this is a Restoration. The teachings and organization of the Church are as they were anciently." It is you that needs to prove to the world that the BoM is the word of god. We do not have to disprove something that is not proven as the word of god I question that what js says is the word of God and have not had anything that I as a Christian can see shown to me that shows a reason to believe in your prophet. I believe this "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves," (Matthew 7:15). Not This: Throughout history, God has chosen prophets, such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, and others, to teach the gospel and direct His Church (Amos 3:7). It is no different today. We all need God’s guidance in a world that is sometimes confusing. Because God loves His children, He continues to send living prophets. Joseph Smith (1805–44) was the first prophet of our time. Gordon B. Hinckley is God’s chosen prophet today. Show me a Christian who believes in the above statement and I will show you a Mormon. Show me a Christian who does not believe in the above statement and I will show you a Christian The lds is a cult Nulla | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 743 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.202 |
Well said.  | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 488 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Nulla: You asked me a question, then set conditions on what an acceptable answer would be. Based on my not answering the way you require, you then leap to conclusions, claiming that I am "attacking" the Bible. Then you dodge the question as to which one of the many versions of the Bible you believe in. You can't believe in all of them as being accurate, so which is the one which you consider to be the standard, and why? I have never claimed the Book of Mormon to be perfect. Church doctrine has always been that it is NOT perfect, just as the Bible is not perfect. You don't have the authority to decide what is or is not "Christian." The only one who has the right to say that a church which believes in Christ is not Christian is Christ himself. DNA evidence "proves" the Old Testament wrong. Either the Earth is older than the Bible says, or Adam is not the "father of all," because there is no DNA evidence of consanginuity of various races within the time frame of the Bible. So, which is perfect, DNA testing or the Bible? Can't be both, Nulla, so you have to pick one and then we'll argue it. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 751 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.33 |
Neither did js have the authority to decide what is or is not 'christian'. But that did not stop him and now look at the mess you are in. You should have studied harder at that christian college. Then you would understand what Christ meant when he said 'you think too much about times'. I'll take his word for it anyday. He has proved himself to me. You have separated yourself from him by 'quite simply and irrefutably' choosing man over him. When Hinkley said the mormon church was a reformation of the ancient church, which one did he mean. The one js organized or the one by reorganized? YOU have to pick one or the whole idea of 'original' is ludicrous by mormom definition. DNA has proved where a man found in a glacier originated from. DNA is proving the bloodlines of Egyptian mummies. You need to go tell those scientists that you, a mormon, can prove them wrong, because they can't prove you aren't right, and see how they respond.     | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 752 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.33 |
While you are at it, you might write to a person who reads heiroglyphics. Ask him to change his mind about js saying a funeral text was really more of his scripture. But again, you will say, "Oh well. Every man makes mistakes. Just because a prophet said that was scripture, we can still believe all the other stuff he said, or not. Doesn't matter to us because we have the TRUE church, and ha-ha, I'll get to be a god and you won't. And no one can really prove us wrong because um..well...hmm..let me get back to ya." For anyone else interested, Gospel Principles says Jesus is the cornerstone of the mormon church and Joseph Smith and the other apostles and prophets are the foundation. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 753 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.33 |
While you are at it, you might write to a person who reads heiroglyphics. Ask him to change his mind about js saying a funeral text was really more of his scripture. But again, you will say, "Oh well. Every man makes mistakes. Just because a prophet said that was scripture, we can still believe all the other stuff he said, or not. Doesn't matter to us because we have the TRUE church, and ha-ha, I'll get to be a god and you won't. And no one can really prove us wrong because um..well...hmm..let me get back to ya." For anyone else interested, Gospel Principles says Jesus is the cornerstone of the mormon church and Joseph Smith and the other apostles and prophets are the foundation. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Can you show me the DNA evidence that you are talking about DNA evidence "proves" the Old Testament wrong. Either the Earth is older than the Bible says, or Adam is not the "father of all," because there is no DNA evidence of consanginuity of various races within the time frame of the Bible. So, which is perfect, DNA testing or the Bible? Can't be both, Nulla, so you have to pick one and then we'll argue it. Please show the DNA tests that were conducted that you are mentioning here. How can I argue when you have no tests or reference to show me. I will gladly read them and reply. Nulla | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.23.215.14 |
Hi, DNA has proven that all humanity is descendant from a single woman. There have been Christians from at least the 2nd century who have interpreted Genesis 1-5 in a symbolic, not in a modern historical sense. Now are you suggesting that the Book of Mormon is not historical? EGK | ||
| grace2u (grace2u) New member Username: grace2u Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.136 |
Hey Solo, (Off topic for a moment) Now I am not interested in being converted to Mormonism but I wanted to let you know that I did go to the Polynesian Cultural Center and it was wonderful! The highlight of my trip. I also discovered IZ on the trip. His music meant a lot to me the next several weeks because when I returned home from the trip I found out that my mother had gone into a coma about 36 hours before I returned. She died a week after going into the coma and my siblings and I listed to the medley "Somewhere Over the Rainbow/What a Wonderful World" over and over in the hospital room. Grace EGK, I have posted a question (on the Catholic thread) that I have concerning a verse in the NT which I would really like to get a Catholic's opinion on. I have really respected a lot of your posts even though, as you are probably aware of, I'm not Catholic. You just seemed to have searched a lot of this out for yourself and if the verse refers to something else, I'm sure you already know what it refers to. God Bless, | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 760 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.224 |
egk, I suggest anyone who wonders if the book of mormon is historical, they should read some of it and decide for yourself. Since the author is Joseph Smith, it is advisable to read about him also. The mormon side and the 'historical'side. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot You don't have the authority to decide what is or is not "Christian." The only one who has the right to say that a church which believes in Christ is not Christian is Christ himself. Can you show me where I have made the decision you speak of. if you mean; Show me a Christian who believes in the above statement and I will show you a Mormon. Show me a Christian who does not believe in the above statement and I will show you a Christian you need to read it again. Nulla | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 492 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Grace: I'm sorry about your mother. I'm glad that your trip gave you something which comforted you and your family in this trying time. Sometimes Heavenly Father likes subtle miracles. I hope that you took my advice on the Ali'i Lu'au for dinner, and the evening show after that. And did you see the display on the history of surfing? BTW, something which you wouldn't likely have been told is that the shakaa sign which you were flashed (the thumb and little finger) all over the islands came from Lai'e. Having been to PCC gives you the right to flash it to your befuddled neighbors. ;) Nulla: DNA evidence "proves" that American Indians are of Asian descent. The only way that this is possible is if they came here from Asia in numbers sufficient to populate the Americas long before the civilizations which arose here. Asia is on the other side of the world's largest ocean, so that's an awful lot of canoes, or years of traffic over a land bridge which was last above water over 20,000 years ago -- three times the age of the world, according to a strict reading of the Bible which you believe to be perfect. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 771 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.122 |
Anyone can see by looking at a world map or a globe that the Bering Sea is easily crossable by walking (in the winter which natives have been doing for centuries) or by boat. It is only 30 miles across. Asia is easily accessible from there. Not only that land masses have shrunk in the last few thousand years. If it is not possible how did a few Israelites get to the Americas in one boat, as the bom states? | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 66 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot I will get some facts and figures for you later. But please do not state things on my behalf such as I believe the bible to be perfect. I have stated I believe in the Holy Bible. I know you are one for knowing which version and so forth others believe in and for what reason. Would I be denying I believe in the Bible if I said one version has better wording than another. And would I be denying if I believe if one versions word/s are not the correct interpretation. If you then want me to think that the BoM is in the same catergory then you are wrong, because I do not. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 68 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
For starters Solopilot. I believe that the bible is giving a true account of the calculations made on the best available history and records handed down to man and used to calculate the age of earth and mankind at that time. Do I believe the calculations and figures used and carried down by word of mouth genration to generation to be 100% accurate. No. Do I believe the written word to be accurate in that it records what man had at his disposal handed down as word of mouth for many generations and putting to text then I say what was recorded of what they said is true? Then yes Man had at his disposal at that time no knowledge of the universe and geology as say 500 years ago as an example. What was mans view of the world then, some thought it flat and that the universe revolved around the earth. Do we deny this knowledge they had then and adopt the current scientific veiw that has been proven to be as accurate as possible with what tools we have at out disposal for use in producing facts to the best of our ability. In doing so are we denying the bible and our scriptures as a whole as being false? To use the same tool like DNA to prove that "Jack the Ripper" raped and killed my daughter and it was the only evidence put forward, then say that the same tool proves the bible of which I am in the witness box and saying I swear on by placing my hand on is false because they made calculations so many thousand years ago without the scientific tools we have today is totally different. It does not mean we are not christian and hold faith in the scriptures. Many other DNA tests can be carried that would prove things in the Bible as correct and accurate the same goes for archaelogical proof. The lds basis its doctrine on js and the BoM. Which in turn states that the Nephites were Israelites and lived for a certain large number of years in the americas. If this cannot be proven then there is nothing to prove that the BoM is true as stated by js. We both know this Solopilot. The difference is that you being Mormon must hold true to your religion and clutch at straws for physical archaelogical or DNA proof, for which to date we have non and in the case of DNA no evidence whatsoever to say otherwise. You continue yourself to deny the question of which do you believe DNA or the Bible?. Because it also answers do you believe in the DNA or the BoM? Your whole doctrine relies on the Nephites and their existance. The whole of the Bible does not rely on the accuracy of calculations made by man to his best ability to put to record how long we have been here. If what I write proves I do not believe in the bible and I am not christian then show me where. If it proves I do not believe that DNA evidence cannot be held accountable then show me. Now can you say the same in regards to the BoM? You can, but what about the Nephites and how important a part of the WHOLE BoM do they play. Is there 100% proof Jesus lived? No. Do the Jews cities mentioned and much much more have DNA and archaelogical proof to help back the claims made in the bible? Is there proof of Moroni and Mormon? Is there DNA, Archaelogical proof to prove their people lived in the Americas? Nulla (Message edited by nulla on April 22, 2005) | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 69 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot. "DNA evidence "proves" that American Indians are of Asian descent. The only way that this is possible is if they came here from Asia in numbers sufficient to populate the Americas long before the civilizations which arose here. Asia is on the other side of the world's largest ocean, so that's an awful lot of canoes, or years of traffic over a land bridge which was last above water over 20,000 years ago -- three times the age of the world, according to a strict reading of the Bible which you believe to be perfect. Solopilot. You need to do a bit more research before you start to throw figures and years around. I would suggest you also name the sources that you are using for your side of the arguement. A quick trip over the the Smithsonian site cut years off what you said. Imagine me using word of mouth from you and passing it down over many generations without putting pen to paper. http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmnh/origin.htm I quote from The Smithsonion Institute. "The traditional theory held that the first Americans crossed the land bridge from Siberia to Alaska around 11,500 years ago and followed an "ice-free corridor" between two large Canadian ice sheets (the Laurentide and Cordilleran) to reach unglaciated lands to the south. These first inhabitants, whose archaeological sites are scattered across North and South America, were called the Clovis people, named after the town in New Mexico where their fluted spear points used for hunting mammoth were first found in 1932. There is now convincing evidence of human habitation sites that date earlier than the Clovis culture including sites located in South America. Monte Verde, a well-studied site located along a river near southern central Chile, dates 12,500 years ago." thats nearly 8,000 years difference from what you wanted me and others to believe. If you care to read further on that page it goes in to diggings and findings of human remains. Again all of asian origin. Now how many Nephites would have been buried, some in mass from the horrific loss from the battles. Visit here for many links and hrs of reading. http://www.hanksville.org/NAresources/indices/NAarch.html Am I to ignore all these reports as being false when they are not out there trying to disprove the BoM they are just stating facts on findings. Nulla (Message edited by nulla on April 23, 2005) | ||
| grace2u (grace2u) New member Username: grace2u Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.136 |
Solo, Thank you for your kind expression of sympathy. Yes they did tell me about the shakaa sign and I did attend the Ali'i Lu'au and had great seats at the Horizon's show. They also told me about the New Zealand (I can't remember what they call that island but it starts with an A) that resembles this face: and is not a very nice face to make. Of course I will never be able to use this face on Factnet again! I didn't get to see the display on the history of surfing although I did get to go to the North Shore. God knew when to let me know what was going on at home because I didn't find out until I arrived back in LA even though my sister, who forgot where I was staying, had a major force out looking for me - she even tried to get the Red Cross to find me! (I had purposely left my cell phone at home because I figured they could call the hotel.) On your discussion with Nulla, I tend to agree with Nulla. You and I can both probably look in the mirror and identify facial characteristics similar to the asian population. With me it is my broad face and narrow almond shaped eyes although I look completely caucasian in every other way. Another thing I noticed at the PCC was similarities in the culture of the Polynesians and of the American Indians. This would make me think Nulla is correct also. You don't think Polynesia was settled by a lost tribe? God Bless, | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 71 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Grace2u re New Zealand and the native Maori people. I have visited New Zealnd and have also seen the All Blacks Rugby Team in Australia a number of times. The call you are talking about is the Haka. Most New Zealanders whites included are taught to use this. For those not familiar with its true meaning can be taken back a bit to say the least. http://www.newzealand.com/travel/about-nz/culture/haka-feature/haka.cfm if you click on the HAKA FEATURE button you will learn more. Australia has a close tie with our neighbour New Zealand or the Kiwis as we call them. Tomorrow brings out two nations together. ANZAC Day - the 25th April - is probably Australia's most important national occasion. It marks the anniversary of the first major military action fought by Australian and New Zealand forces during the First World War ANZAC stands for Australian and New Zealand Army Corps. Lest We Forget Nulla | ||
| grace2u (grace2u) New member Username: grace2u Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
Nulla, I don't really want to use this sign because I was told it was equivalent to the middle finger here but it looked more like this: http://www.picturecontact.com/afy_info_id_srchshow_APPMODE_S2_ItemCode_JDW05162_site_New%20Zealand_InCurrentKeywords_New+Zealand_SearchResults._121.htm Are these two the same thing? (Sorry for the off-topic conversation.) God Bless, | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 778 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.240 |
The movie 'Whale Riders' is a beautiful story about these people. I have a copy and watch it often. I enjoy it immensely. I wish someone (perhaps Nulla) would start a thread about native cultures and their beliefs. Christian and nonchristian alike can learn a great deal from other cultures that will enhance our walk with the Lord. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 73 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Grace2u Yes same sign, that is the Haka. It is really not offensive, more a welcome but with signs to drive off the evil spirits and is a means of raising the spirits as in adrenaline. If you have seen Seven Years in Tibet, you will have noted the welcome sign of poking the tongue out by the Tibetan Villagers They still do this in many of the remote areas that have not been destroyed by the chinese. I think the Tibetan and Mongolion people are the closest of the asians in asian blood to the american Indian as well. I have some wonderful tapes from certain parts of Tibet of monks singing and it resembles very much the sounds of the Native Indians. The original religion of Tibet was known as Bon. It was animistic and its worship of the elements of nature is remarkably similar to that of the Native Americans. I think the Mongolian people are very much misunderstood because of the tyrany of Ghenghis Khan etc. To see the warmth of these wonderful people I highly recommend watching Ghenghis Blues if you can get your hand on it. Get your hand on some tissues as well. http://www.genghisblues.com/ This will aslo open your ears to Khoomie singing. Go down the page and sample the music from the movie.... and yes it is all voice no instruments. Godchild, good idea re the thread... I'm sure I annoy some people by going off topic the way I do. I'm sorry to those who find it so, my only intent is to help enrich our knowledge of our fellow humans on this wonderful planet. I think there are other catergories on the main page of factnet that may suit such a thread. Great movie as well GC peace to you all Nulla | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 504 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.57 |
Nulla: God knows when the world was created. If the Bible is wrong, then either God lied or some prophet or translator got it wrong. Re: land bridge date http://www.native-languages.org/bering.htm uses the 20,000-year figure which I learned in high school. Looking at later info, the most recent quote is 11,000 years ago. According to the Bible, the world was created about 6,400 years ago. I fail to see how a land bridge which disappeared 5,000 years before the world was created is any better than one which disappeared 14,000 before the world was created. I can't show you the mass graves of Nephite soldiers, any more than you can show me the sites of Sodom, Gomorrah, Jericho and other sites of mass death in the Bible. You have a much easier job, things in deserts last for a very long time, while things in jungle tend to disappear rapidly. Grace: Glad that you enjoyed your visit to the North Shore. If you got to Waimea, how were the waves? Thank you for your donation at PCC. Your money goes to the scholarship funds which bring students from around the world (mostly the Pacific) for an education that they would otherwise never be able to get. I have to ask . . .did you like the poi? Now you know why the kanaka never invented wallpaper (we keep eating the paste). Now I'm homesick. Lei Day is next week and I'm stuck here. The World Fire Knife Competition is in May, and I'll miss it (again!). Unfortunately, when I'm able to find a mirror which won't shatter when I look into it, I can't see where one race ends and the next begins. According to the Bible, we are all of Middle Eastern descent -- moreover, we are all descended of the handful who were aboard the Ark, only 4,700 years (230 generations) ago. Why doesn't this show up in DNA tests which claim to prove that American tribes came from Asia three times as long ago? There are only two possibilities -- first, the Bible is in error, second, the DNA test is in error. Which do you prefer? . . .and what about the dinosaurs and fossils, which are certainly not possible if the Bible is 100% accurate, inerrant and complete. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 74 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot Re: land bridge date " I fail to see how a land bridge which disappeared 5,000 years before the world was created is any better than one which disappeared 14,000 before the world was created. " If you fail to see that you yourself were under the impression that the land bridge was different in years why then cannot you relate that to the people of the time who were using records handed down by word of mouth then putting it to paper as there records of the time when the written word become a tool. Your example is 9,000 years different than what you were taught in school. So what was Noah told verbally prior to the flood could have been easily been out in numbers. I have stated I feel they were wrong in calculations, but the bible is correct in putting to paper the calculations that were known. This does not make the bible false. You keep giving people the option it is one or the other. Taking that away from the bible does not destroy the whole bible. Are you stating the bible to be 100% correct here and then in other threads you say it is not perfect. What I do say is that if you take the fact away from the BoM as well then your destroy the whole foundation of it. You are doing your best to make people feel that DNA is inconclusive. If its one or the other then: Why does the Brigham Young University have such teachings as Geology, Micro Biology and then Relgious Study Courses. http://fhss.byu.edu/anthro/ http://www.chem.byu.edu/ http://religion.byu.edu/ According to you Its either one or the other, you cannot have both. If you cannot have both why teach scholars micro biology. Is this the LDS philosophy you preach or your own. You are again clutching at staws on the topic of archaelogical remains. Same applies as the above. According to you Solopilot: The Brigham Young University should be teaching; Religion or Science. which one is it? Nulla | ||
| grace2u (grace2u) New member Username: grace2u Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
Solopilot, Waves seemed to be just about everywhere – we stopped at the North Shore but were pretty careful since the day before tourists had to be rescued because of the waves. So I would say they were pretty big and there were surfers galore around Waimea and many cars parked on the side of the road. We did wade a bit at Sunset Beach were it seemed a bit calmer. My son was begging to go swimming but we had been to Pearl Harbor in the morning and then drove to the North Shore and kind of did the circle tour backwards. Finally, we got to the beach at Kualoa County Regional Park and I let him go in. We drove back south and attempted Sandy Beach and quickly realized we were crazy because the waves were more than we could handle. I tried to poi and I wouldn’t say that I liked it but I didn’t dislike it either. I didn’t find that it had much flavor. Yes, it reminded me of paste! On the other hand, I tried this very spicy beef that was awesome! The fire knife competition sounds great. Yes, we are all from the Middle East but if you follow the migration patterns of Noah’s son they did indeed settle different regions and I am sure that certain characteristics began showing up in the families of the sons. This very point goes against the very link that you provided for Nulla as that link stated that the Native Americans (at least those discussed in on the page) think that they have always been located in the America’s. If this is the case then it confuses me to say that they are a lost tribe of Israel. Of course you may have already touched on this but I am just entering the conversation. I think for most of us (accept maybe for the Hawaiians due to the tradition of the Hula) it is rare for us to easily have quick access to our family tree very far back. Mormons, of course, do a lot of research on this but as you know this is not always very easy to accomplish and there are roadblocks galore. I went through a phase where I did a lot of genealogical work, not for religious reasons, but I thought I would never find my paternal great great grandmother’s paternal name. While some traditions do come down to us rather easily, other’s do not. I think it is quite possible that the Native American’s felt like they had always been in the America’s because certain things may have not verbally been passed down due to adverse situations, etc. Even in our day with all the conveniences that we have to do genealogical work, I could have easily come to the conclusion that my family had always been here (except it is obvious that I am Caucasian and we have been taught U.S. History which is really fairly current). Considering the history of the America’s, many of our families have been here just a short time when you consider all of history; however, if your parents or grandparents did not come to the America’s during the last 100 or 150 years or so – the details do tend to get lost and this could have been the case with the American Indians also. And our ancestors also had reasons to rewrite history. For instance, “some” of my mother’s family went to great length to try to hide their Native American ancestry due to prejudice and this was a very common practice in the US. (All I can say is I wish my families had done a better job of passing down information about how long they had been in a certain place and given a little more specifics. My huguenot ancestors did a better job than the others but there are some families I cannot get back over that ocean.) My first instinct is to say that DNA tests are in error. Ironically, someone told me today that scientist are rethinking where fossil fuel actually came from. Dinosaurs and fossils? Well some people think that dinosaurs were on the earth between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I think God has put in the bible all that we need to know and I don’t believe it is urgent that we know with exactness where dinosaurs came from and how they died. Some people think (and I don’t agree with this) that dinosaurs were created as a result of angels taking the form of humans and taking wives of the sons of men. I don’t know but I don’t need to know because if this is the case they were destroyed in the flood anyway. (reference: Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha – i.e. Book of Enoch, etc.) (I only recently looked at this to help me understand Jude better.) I don’t know Solopilot. I just trust that God has told me all that I need to know in His word. That’s why they call it faith. P.S. Godchild, thanks for your information and links. It was the Polynesian Cultural Center guides that told me that the Haka was equivalent to the middle finger. Maybe I am just more offended by the middle finger than most people.  (Message edited by Grace2U on April 25, 2005) | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 509 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.164 |
Nulla: The Bible says that the world is about 6,400 years old. If you take the Bible literally, you cannot accept anything other than that age, and any theory which requires you to do so is anti-your-version-of-Christian. You want DNA? From https://www.ancestrybydna.com/presults.asp: "Middle Eastern Here we see the BioGeographical Ancestry (BGA) admixture results provided by Ancestrybydna 2.5 for a collection of individuals indigenous to the Middle East, from countries such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq and Lebanon. The BGA percentages for each individual is represented with a point. We see from the plot that many of the individuals exhibit Native American admixture." What I'm doing is pointing out that the scientific evidence directly conflicts with Biblical doctrine which you believe to be word-for-word literal and true. So which do you believe? Grace: My whole point on the scientific evidence is that it can only be used to "prove" something about Mormonism if you are willing to take science at a higher value than the Bible. You decide which you are going to accept, then I will argue on that level, but I'm not going to let anti-Mormons base their agruments on evidence that they can't believe to be true. So which is it? I don't believe the DNA evidence any more than I believe the Bible to be 100% accurate, inerrant and complete. Different tribes have different beliefs. There are those who believe themselves to be of the Lost Tribes, others believe themselves to be the First People, still others are willing to be tested and accept whatever the result. | ||
| grace2u (grace2u) New member Username: grace2u Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.248.171.195 |
Solo, Not a fair question because it gives only two answers neither which I would select. I believe the bible to be an infallible, all-sufficient rule of faith and practice this is not the same as being 100% accurate, inerrant and complete. | ||
| grace2u (grace2u) New member Username: grace2u Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.136 |
Solopilot wrote: Here we see the BioGeographical Ancestry (BGA) admixture results provided by Ancestrybydna 2.5 for a collection of individuals indigenous to the Middle East, from countries such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq and Lebanon. The BGA percentages for each individual is represented with a point. We see from the plot that many of the individuals exhibit Native American admixture." That would make sense because it is more likely that these individuals including the Native Americans more than likely descended from Shem with probable mixtures with the other son's families. The tribes of Israel came a little later. Just my feeble thoughts. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 75 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Solopilot, not sure what your on about re the site you refered me to. You should do some more reading when you visit such sights. That site is for tracing ancestors and speaks mostly about human migrations for the last 200 years. Check out the map page and you will see that they clearly state the migration of the first americans is the same as what I have been stating. https://www.ancestrybydna.com/largeMap.html You may need to start using reference from the Brigham Young University as your reliable source for micro biology and archaeology. I have some very interesting articles from the univeristy itself regarding dna and its reliablity. I work in the pathology department of a major hospital in Melbourne, please do not tell me DNA is unreliable, nor tell me I do not believe in the bible. You are once again trying to say things I have not said. The BoM has no DNA evidence to support in any way its claim of the Nephites. Solopilot. Are trying to say I am an athiest if I believe in DNA findings? If you are then you are doing the same for the LDS Nulla (Message edited by nulla on April 26, 2005) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Biblical World age : Were creation days diffrent from our literal 24 Hour day? In genesis it wasn't untill after the 3rd day that the SUN& MOON,STARS WERE CREATED. I beleive those are the items we base our time & calanders on. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 76 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Solopilot: " You have a much easier job, things in deserts last for a very long time, while things in jungle tend to disappear rapidly." I take it by the statement that I have a much easier job means that we have a much easier job? Do you not believe in findings that back the bible? It appears that you are going to persist and persist in trying to put down the bible as part of your arguement or in most cases, use the bible as a tool to try to put down those who do not agree with you re the BoM Can any mormons please help shed some light upon the jungle theory, if that is the lds stance re no bodies or metal swords found. Does it not say in the BoM that the battles causing the loss of 2 millions lives was conducted on and around the hill Cumorah. Does it say they buried their dead. I have trouble coming to terms with a battle of such magnitude occuring in jungles. On top of that I have more trouble thinking about finding space to dig 2 million graves. Are mormons now saying Cumorah is not in New York but in a Jungle in South America. If they are, are they saying it was thick jungle that would cause decay. This all seems different to what I read. Nulla | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 794 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.146 |
Is it possible that the Bible has been altered through thousands of years of countless copies and versions? This is the kind of question that is best answered by those who have applied the principles of science to manuscript evidence. Scholars spend lifetimes examining all available manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts. They note and map any variations of spelling or wording that show up in families of manuscripts that have been copied from a common source. In addition they analyze the writings of second-and third-century church fathers who left extensive quotes of the Scriptures they were reading and studying. On the basis of such research, scholars assure us that our Bible is a highly reliable representation of the original manuscripts. In The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable, F. F. Bruce writes, "To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scolar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none: 'The interval then between the data of original composition and the earliest extant evidence become so small to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scripture have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Tesatament may be regarded as finally established.'"(The Bible and Archaeology, New York and London: Harper, 1940). Backed by such evidence, the Bible also remains the all-time bestselling most widely read book in the world. Challengers come and go. What remain are the words of those who were willing to die for their claim that they personally witnessed the miraculous life, death, and resurrection of the Son of God. One of those witnesses wrote, "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty" (2 Peter 1:16). Mart De Haan June 2005 Mormons need to either accept the Holy Bible as the word of God or reject it completely, in which case they should take the portions of the Holy Bible they have copied into their book OUT!!! Can mormons name one nonmormon historian or scientist who will testify the Book of Mormon is factual? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.143 |
Joseph said it was in New York & Thats good enough for ME. Now as far as them bones of 2 million dead & swords. Maybe the earth swallowed them up, it was always swallowing up treasure that joseph was looking for. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 523 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Steel: You really think that the victors wouldn't pick up the swords? As far as the hundreds of thousands of bodies (not millions, as you claim), ever head of "animals"? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 873 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.59.61 |
People like solopilot believe the Bible is in err, and know that the books written by his prophet are plagaerized or fictionalized and unproved by any evidence except for a few men who had their selfinterest at heart. What does he have? As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 135 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
I've heard of animals, They must of been awefully hungry , to eat all that meat & bones too. So many swords to pick up,& after such a large battle, I wonder if any of these (nephite) populations(INDIANS) Used any of these Swords In future battles or has any been found among any indian population? Or matbe they smolted them down & made Indian Money so they could by BOW & ARROWS. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 136 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
I've heard of animals, They must of been awefully hungry , to eat all that meat & bones too. So many swords to pick up,& after such a large battle, I wonder if any of these (nephite) populations(INDIANS) Used any of these Swords In future battles or has any been found among any indian population? Or matbe they smolted them down & made Indian Money so they could by BOW & ARROWS. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 883 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.224 |
I wonder why the mormon church, with all of its billions of dollars, has not offered a reward for the gold plates. I mean, there are men who spend millions finding treasure (example: ships with gold bullion). I'm just sure they could find them. Of course, they would have to 'exist' first. After all, the church pays hundred of thousands of the members money to buy fake documents. If it were my hard earned money going into the pot, I would be asking these questions. Wouldn't you? Mormons would rather believe: 1. The original plates are lost 2. The original documents are lost 3. They would rather concentrate on what their current prophet says, or writes, even though he admits he and every other mormon knows very little about their doctrines. See: How's the Boss in the mormon church for evidence of that. You may notice mormons don't have a response to these things. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 281 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: OK, where did Lehi come from? I mentioned in a discussion with Nulla that there is a good chance that Lehi's family were not Jews that originated in Israel, though of course that was where he settled. The ability of his family to pick up sticks at such short notice and survive such an arduous treck across desert does, logically, allow us to ask if they were in fact descendant of a nomadic family at some point. Why does the claimed lack of a link to those jews used to compare the Indian DNA mean in reality? - I have not read the "reports" - but do they acknowledge the existence of any groups, families or tribes that were not of "pure" Israelite descendancy? - I look at this claim you, Nulla, and GC are hooking your views upon, and ask if it does not compare with the supposed accuracy that carbon dating was once claimed to have? There are so many questions and What if's, and I am sure you all acknowledge that a little knowledge of a topic does not make any of you and expert, so how do you know that you are not just making a claim into a fact - to justify your own means? Betcha can't. The other massive fault in all of your assumptions is that the descendants of Lehi's group were the ONLY people present in the America's - the BoM NEVER claims that - so far as we know there could have been many thousands of other people who made their way to the continent prior to and during the thousand year history covered by the BoM - such a blinkered view will make it impossible for anyone to make a rational and accurate statement about DNA proving ANYTHING about the BoM. You do not THINK about what you are saying beyond what you read, hence your statements and comments are illogical. In my humble opinion. How relaible archeology - I recall a book called Anglo-Saxon Attitudes which if I remember rightly was based on true events around the discovery of an Anglo Saxon King in England - the experts were convinced, until the chap who faked it confessed it was all invention - the experts WANTED to believe it, so the King became a real piece of English history for a while. We will believe what we want to believe more often than not. Another thought - show me the Archeological proof that ANY of the people that existed before Solomon actually existed - now there is a challenge. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
You say there's a good chance they were not Jews but settled in the land of Isreal. Then why did they practice the Law Of the JEWS & the priesthood ,through offering of sacrifice & burnt offerings,being that the priesthood was through the tribe of LEVI,& through the house of Aaron? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 139 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Joesdad, have you read The "Proclamation Of The 12" Written on April 6th 1845 Also why is April 6th so important to the LDS Faith? Quote from the Proclamation: Show me their ancient oracles & records that prove they are a remanant of Isreal. We also bear testimony that the "INDIANS"(so called)0f North & South America are a remnant of the tribes of Isreal as is now made manifest by the discovery and revelation of their ancient oracles and records. And that they are about to be gathered, civilized, and made ONE NATION in this glorius land. They will also come to the knowledge of their forefathers, and of the fulness of the gospel; and they will embrace it, and become a righteous branch of the house of Isreal. ARE the Indians of north & south america the remanant of the house of Isreal? Have the Indians embraced the Gospel? Have they all come together and made one NATION in this Glorius Land? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 140 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
What is the discovery 0f their ancient records & oracles? | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Joesdad. "I look at this claim you, Nulla, and GC are hooking your views upon, and ask if it does not compare with the supposed accuracy that carbon dating was once claimed to have? There are so many questions and What if's, and I am sure you all acknowledge that a little knowledge of a topic does not make any of you and expert, so how do you know that you are not just making a claim into a fact - to justify your own means? Betcha can't. What we and others say. There is no DNA evidence to support the BoM There has been no Archaeological evidence found to support the BoM claims. It is mormons making claims. We are saying that the evidence shows these claims cannot be substantiated. The BYU shows no other findings that differ to the non lds scientific findings. So please show me that we are the ones who are ignorant. If you have proof then show it. To base your belief on "what ifs and buts" is your choice. Is the Lord of the Rings a true story because I say so and you cannot rely on DNA and Archaeological evidence that says different....because what if ...? Solopilot. What animals or carnivores were there in such large numbers that required a continual diet of meat. Must have been one hell of a place to live with all the dangerous animals around. Wouldn't you think they would have all been tracked down and hunted out as being competition for food by the millions that owned the swords. Also in Alma 53:1 And it came to pass that they did set guards over the prisoners of the Lamanites, and did compel them to go forth and bury their dead, yea, and also the dead of the Nephites who were slain; and Moroni placed men over them to guard them while they should perform their labors. Indicates to me they buried their dead. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 93 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Joesdad: I regards to your theory that Lehi and his people may have been from or descended from nomads. As all tests by BYU and non mormons indicate American Indians are descended from Northeast Asians who migrated across the Bering Sea between 7,000 and 50,000 years ago we would have to assume Lehi and party were Asian I have not read into the life of Lehi prior to departure to the Americas. You would need to take into account that if they were descendents of a nomadic tribe that originated from Asia then there would have been traces of that gene in Israelites. To have kept the clean Asian gene and carried it to the Americas would also mean the BoM has to be looked at and interpreted differently as all of Lehis people would not have been white. I've not looked at nor read any other persons theory along these lines so good luck with your investigations. I'm open for new evidence and any new theory. It keeps getting back to saying that there is no DNA evidence to support the BoM. You say it doesn't prove the BoM as false. I say it doesnt prove the BoM as fact. Nulla | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 285 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: We don't know of Lehi's life prior to the BoM. I'm no geneticist and not are you, we in relaity do not understand what the reults might mean, and what assumptions have been made, nor what allowances - for you and I to attempt to discuss it at our simple level will not solve anything. An article I have read briefly can be found at http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme13.shtml have a read, and then decide whether your claim based on a claim has been looked into sufficiently. So far as I am aware, the annuls of time contain details of great battles at which many, many people were killed - do each of these have a pile of bones and weapons evidencing the spot - if not why not? - who cleared it away, and why? - does such an absence mean that you will deny all such battles took place? - are there any accounts of battles or instances where large numbers of prople were killed in Aboriginal history - and if so, are the bones piled high as a marker? You refer to If's and But's, however each of the reasons you use to reject any claim on the BoM's authenticity are If's and But's | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 94 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Joesdad. The ifs and buts are your reasons to prove the claims in the BoM. Nulla | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.74.37.85 |
Hi, I looked at the link Joesdad gave concerning the DNA test and the BoM. I believe that the site's author misunderstands how DNA tests are used to determine the ancestors of a particular people. Please look at the article "Who were the Phoenicians?" in the October 2004 National Geographic. It is about how DNA tests were used to determine that most Lebanonese are descendants from the original Caananite inhabitants and not from a "mixture" of Caananites and the Sea People who attacked Lebanon in Ancient times. Tests also indicated that the ancient Phoenicians colonized Northern African (which we already knew from history.) I have not read any of the tests which have been used to disprove the BoM, so I don't know what those tests were like. I would not disregard them out of hand, because DNA tests are verifying history that we know (Phoenicians in Northern Africa) and answering questions that were unanswerable before (did the Sea People imigrate and leave descendants in Lebanon or did they just attack and destroy.) BTW I saw 2 Mormon missionaries yesterday. I was tempted to stop and ask them for copies of the BoM and the other Mormon Scriptures. Joesdad and SoloPilot, Would that have been a "kosher" thing to do? EGK | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 144 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.139 |
Joesdad, i'll put my money on Thomas Murphy when it comes to DNA, More so than i ever would Jeff lindsay. Linsay reaches for stuff. http://www.cephas-library.com/mormon_dna_bom.html http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon95.html | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 95 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Joesdad. I would like to know what battles you have in mind that had such numbers and large losses. For me to give you a reply on battles in Europe and Asia let me know which recorded battles. You wrote: “I'm no geneticist and not are you, we in relaity do not understand what the reults might mean, and what assumptions have been made, nor what allowances - for you and I to attempt to discuss it at our simple level will not solve anything.” But this does not mean we ignore the facts that are given by experts. Tell me would the same apply if Nephite DNA was found. I am not going to push aside the facts given by experts both Mormon and Non Mormom. I really do hope this is not the attitude of the church when questioned by new or potentially new mormons. Regarding your point on Australia. At the time of white mans arrival the best estimate they give is that there were 500,000 to 600,000 Aboriginals. You would need to read more into that to understand what I mean in the following. The Aboriginal are said to be one of the oldest known races in the world. To have inhabited Aust. for such a period and yet have such a small population gets back to why many cultures and cities disappeared. The availability of food. In the Aboriginals case they kept a fairly steady population, were territorial, lived in tribes and the tribes land rights were kept for many centuries. Wars and battles of the magnitude mentioned in the BoM did not occur. The Aboriginals were hunter gatherers, no permanent dwellings, no metals, no wheel. There are no archaeological finds that show they farmed in any way. But they did leave signs of there history throughout all of this vast continent for the next generations of Aboriginals. We also have a vast archaeological amount of items and human remains, as well as DNA records to show as proof. This is a long post, what I am trying to hint at and show is sustainability . If you were to look at the history of say the Americas outside of the BoM and of those natives of Africa you would see that populations depended upon food and fresh water supplies. The BoM shows that the population growth was way above anything recorded. The BoM mentions use of steel to make weapons and of bellows. Can you tell me for how long does the Bom tell us that steel was used? Can you then give reason as to why they made no developments in the use of it other than weapons over such a long period of time. If they did make other objects why have we not seen them. Where did all the metal go? (multiply soldiers killed by 1 to 2 lbs a sword would be still well under the required gross weight of steel produced.) They buried it. What for? If they farmed for such large amounts of people what tools,? Did they need fencing to protect crops?. If wood fences then what tools? If stone fences for the wheat and barley crops where are they now? To have and sustain such a large population they needed infrastructure. Show me claims of any other culture or people living in that time frame that had even half the amount in population and half the knowledge they had and I will show you archaeogical proof they existed. How many Nephites were said to be living at any one time? How can such a large number of people disappear off planet earth and not leave us anything to show for it? It is the BoM that comes forward and makes the claims with no evidence. We are called anti mormons when we ask for proof of the claims js has made when nothing has been found and no DNA to show for it.. Contrary to what some mormons might believe, scientists are not out there just to disprove the BoM. The lds is looking for Nephite history in scientific finds. Nulla (Message edited by nulla on May 04, 2005) | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 532 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Nulla: Having grown up both in a desert (California) and the windward side of a tropical island (Oahu), it came as a great shock to me to spend time in Georgia and Alabama, and discover how rapidly things can deteriorate. If you have only been in Oz, you wouldn't believe the "killer mildew" found in mainland jungles. I've seen pickup trucks which had rusted to the point on not being safe to drive within 5 years of coming out of the factory. If high-tensile, 3/8-inch thick steel can degrade that quickly, how many 1/4-inch-thick swords do you think would still be around after a millennium and a half? Regarding the stones, well, we built a temple in Nauvoo from stone, completing it in 1846. By 1865, no two stones remained together, the temple having been destroyed then the stones taken away for other uses. In Central America, they are still finding settlements and stone buildings as the jungles are burned to build new settlements. We are a long way from knowing all that there is to know, so there is no way to say that the Nephites didn't leave us anything to show for their existence. Hitler killed some 13,000,000, Stalin killed 30,000,000, the Khmer Rouge killed nearly 1,700,000, all within the last 75 years -- yet there is little left behind to show that any of them ever existed. That's what conquerors DO, Nulla. Nobody knows just how much "Spanish" gold was melted down from "pagan" artwork in the Americas and the Philippines. Nobody can ever know how many artifacts were destroyed by the order of the Catholic priests who invaded America with the Conquistadores. The Protestant missionaries who invaded Hawaii destroyed everything that they could find of our records and religious artifacts, and eventually conquered our nation and imprisoned our queen, handing it all over to a president who sat 5000 miles away. You grew up thinking that native Americans all lived in deerskin huts and said "How!" No, Nulla, just because you haven't been told something doesn't mean it can't be true. ;) | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 121 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot You wrote “Having grown up both in a desert (California) and the windward side of a tropical island (Oahu), it came as a great shock to me to spend time in Georgia and Alabama, and discover how rapidly things can deteriorate. If you have only been in Oz, you wouldn't believe the "killer mildew" found in mainland jungles. I've seen pickup trucks which had rusted to the point on not being safe to drive within 5 years of coming out of the factory. If high-tensile, 3/8-inch thick steel can degrade that quickly, how many 1/4-inch-thick swords do you think would still be around after a millennium and a half?” Yep metal can deteriorate, so where did this happen and what region of the Americas? Please note in stating this that metal objects relating to ancient America have been found. By the way, I have traveled much of asia, as well in Australia we also have tropical jungles. Re Stone: “In Central America, they are still finding settlements and stone buildings as the jungles are burned to build new settlements. We are a long way from knowing all that there is to know, so there is no way to say that the Nephites didn't leave us anything to show for their existence.” If there is no way to say they didn’t leave anything then there is certainly no way you can say they did. If nothing has been found which is the correct statement? Hitler killed some 13,000,000, Stalin killed 30,000,000, the Khmer Rouge killed nearly 1,700,000, all within the last 75 years -- yet there is little left behind to show that any of them ever existed. Sorry Solopilot, the above is very false. As well as your figure Jews killed. 5,933,900 reference http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/killedtable.html Even with the jews that were killed in camps, evidence still remains. How many skeletons have been found re the Cambodians? But where you fail altogether here is. We still have Jews We still have Russians We still have Cambodians. Is that not more than enough evidence they existed? The other very weak side to your theory is that if the Nephites were superior to all other cultures in the Americas reason would have it they would be the ones who would survive. If it was food famine or desease then why did other cultures survive? I still have not had a figure shown to me as to the highest population achieved by the nephites… but we are looking at over 3 million if we take into account only lives lost in battle. Given that, then over a thousand year period how many nephites have graced this planet and disappeared without a trace. I ask as well, of this period prior to christ, were not the nephites practicing jews? Did they not carry out the rituals and ceremonies as conducted as jews? Why do we have in our possesion so many objects of worship from that period used by jews and none from the americas? Re the Melt down. Nobody knows just how much "Spanish" gold was melted down from "pagan" artwork in the Americas and the Philippines. Nobody can ever know how many artifacts were destroyed by the order of the Catholic priests who invaded America with the Conquistadores. The Protestant missionaries who invaded Hawaii destroyed everything that they could find of our records and religious artifacts. But not all religious artifacts as you are trying to make us believe. An article from http://www.archaeology.org shows a different story “83 ancient Hawaiian artifacts worth millions of dollars to a Native Hawaiian organization. The objects were taken in 1905 by district judge David Forbes from the lava-formed chambers of a cave in Honokoa Gulch in the Kawaihae district of the island of Hawai'i--referred to locally as "the Big Island." The artifacts have been held by the Bishop Museum since their purchase in 1907. Among them is a female ki'i (statue), some uniquely carved bowls inlaid with human teeth, a god image carved on the top of a wooden staff and a unique game board used for playing a traditional Hawaiian game called konane . and you state; “Nobody knows just how much "Spanish" gold was melted down from "pagan" artwork in the Americas and the Philippines. Nobody can ever know how many artifacts were destroyed by the order of the Catholic priests who invaded America with the Conquistadores.’ Can you tell me what pagan art work? If it doesn’t exist now, what records show it did? If it was artifacts from the Nephites are you saying then they have been found by the Spaniards and destroyed, but no buildings found as well. Or did the Spanish do as they have not done to other temples and buildings found in that they destroyed all traces of the building materials and then went to all the effort to cover up the site? From who? They were the conquerors. "No, Nulla, just because you haven't been told something doesn't mean it can't be true. ;) A nice twist of things for your footnote, but sadly this can apply to all fiction stories ever written. Mormon answers are to try and prove the following as incorrect. There is no archaeological evidence to support the BoM. Fact or Fiction? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Junior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.21 |
Absolutely fascinating information, nulla. I would also like to know where the elephant skeletons are in America and the wheels that the Nephites supposedly used. Maybe Joseph Smith got it wrong when he translated. Maybe that was Noah, and not Nephi. Or did they drag the elephant behind through thousands of miles of water. Or maybe with the wheel, they also had really big balloons. Yes, that must be it. We should be careful. The next thing you know, the writers of mormon history will get ahold of these posts and call them the 'truth', as evidenced by factnet postings. Any belief is acceptable in the mormon church. Except the main Christian doctrine: That God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are One, and that the Bible is Holy Scripture as evidenced by 40 authors over a period of 1600 years. | ||
| dean Junior Member Username: dean Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
Its funny when you look at the reality of the facts that almost on a "daily" basis biblical Archeoligist find remnants of pottery, metel, etc,that these tribes existed as well as villeges and small towns that are stated in the bible from the first century in the Holy land..."that would certainly make me think" but "Farms" and even secular archeoligist can not find not one peace of evidence, "not one" to support anything of Joe Smith's Book, but of course its a free country, and thanks to our early fathers who found this country that put life in Christ Jesus and built this country, and would fight for this county to keep it free. You are able to choose to believe what ever you want or any cult for that matter. |
