| Author | Message | ||
     steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.135 |
This had to be one of the most important issues i had to deal with when it relates to mormonism. after studying freemasonry all 33 degrees, York & Scottish Rites, i began to see where Joseph got some of his ideas. Freemasonry has a plan of salvation, it preaches WORKS to reach the celestial lodge. I was amazed to learn that the first 5 mormon prophets were freemasons. How could joseph perform masonic rituals and be a prophet of GOD. Masonry teaches there is a universal GOD (GAOTU). Joseph was actually raised from the dead as Hiram Abiff? Although the temple rituals have change over the past few years , they are masonic to their core. You see masonic symbols all over the temple, as well as on each temple worthy mormon,by being bound to wear their temple garments (underware). Satan will use all his means to bind you & blind you. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 719 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.13 |
I have known this also for a long time. I never heard about Joseph being raised from the dead. I posted a site that discusses this thoroughly. Here are some portions taken from that site. Prior to the revision of the temple ceremony in 1990, those who went through the ritual were required to go through what was know as the "Five Points of Fellowship." This part of the ritual would have been very appealing to a Satanist who disired close physical contact with those who pass through the ceremony. Reporting on changes made in the ceremony, the Los Angeles Times, May 5, 1990, gave this information concerning the removal of the "Five Points of Fellowship" from the temple ceremony. "Also dropped is an 'embrace' of a man representing God, who stands behind a ceiling-to-floor veil. Reaching through a slit in the veil, the church member puts his or her hand to the back of the deity and presses against him at the cheek, shoulders, knees and ffet with the veil between them. The contact at 'five points of fellowdhip,' including the hand to his back, has been ommitted, although the member must still give a secret handshake and repeat a lengthy password." In 1827, fifteen years before Joseph Smith revealed the temple ritual to the Mormons, William Morgan wrote the following concerning the use of the five points of fellowship in Masonry. Joseph Smith, of course, participated in this Masonic ritual when he became a Master Mason. It is not surprising, then, that when he created the Mormon temple ceremony he included the Five Points of Fellowship. It is clear from the description of the Five Points of Fellowship in the 1984 version of the temple ritual that Smith borrowed from Masonry. "While it is good that the Mormon leaders removed this Masonic element from the endowment ceremony, some people who have been involved in temple work feel that the reason it was dropped was because some of the women felt the five points of contact (especially the placing of the 'inside of your knee to his') were too intimate. There were complaints that men playing the role of the Lord sometimes took advantage of the situation. We were also told that even some of the men felt they had a problem with the "Lord" behind the veil. Since a large number of men have played the role of the lord in the various temples throughout the world, it is certainly possible that complaints could have been made at various times...it is very possible that the "Five Points of Fellowdhip' were removed because this part os the ritual seemed awkward or embarrassing to some members of the Mormon Church." By limiting participants to merely place their 'left arms...upon right shoulders" church leaders have made it almost impossible for any intimate embrace to take place. from helpingmormons.org | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Gc in the third degree,each mason is resurected in the name of hiram abiff,also known as the savior of freemasonry. check out these sites and ask yourself how these lds prophets could of been freemasons. http://www.fish4masons.org http://www.freemasonrywatch.org http://www.emfj.org | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 724 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.72 |
Can anybody say this is not sacrilegous and blasphemy? The Bible has warned, and does warn, about this. Man opens the door for Satan to come in. Man has to take full responsibility for it. Man cannot blame God when they intentionally ignore or change what he has said. Can anybody with a clear conscience and a desire to know God say that these practices are from God? Thanks for the sites. I hope mormons will not ignore them. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
GC, if you read much on Albert Pike, who wrote the handbook for the scottish rite of freemasonry (Morals & Dogma ) you will realize that he was a luciferean . He was also at one point head of the KKK. The BOM actually speaks out against secret soceities, but we know as Joseph began to gain power, his doctrine began to change. He knew the flock would follow. So not only did he become a mason , but stole the masonic ritual & moved it into the temple as the endowment. All temple worthy mormons still wear the Compass, square & rule on their temple garments (underware) every day of their lives. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 730 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.247 |
I am familiar with the temple garments. My Mother wears them always. I have seen the tiny symbols on them. I also know they aren't cheap. The church is making the bucks off of everyone who goes thru the temple. I am in the process of downloading adobe so that I can get into these sites. The idea of these people touching me makes my skin crawl, especially as I was molested by men I was supposed to trust when I was a child. I am not blaming the mormon church for that but as anyone can see by reading mormon beliefs, women and girls are not exactly considered equal to men. The whole thing is repulsive and not something God would want us to subject ourselves to. I believe this led to the practice of polygamy as it gave men the right to abuse young girls. Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, verses 1, 61-62 "Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph..if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery...therefore is he justified." gc-it is my understanding this revelation is still published in the D&C. Is that true? Not only did Joseph and Brigham marry women, they married these women's daughters and even married women who were already married. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.143 |
7 of Joseph first 9 wives were still married to other men. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 749 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.173 |
steelsword, I have been reading some of the sites you recommended. I knew the mormon church copied temple rituals from the masons, but had no idea the masons are a religion. Now I understand why mormons say js will sit at the right hand of God. It is the belief that Jesus was a prototype for what they think they can become, not the only begotten son of God. Why do they want to call themselves christians? The only reason I can see is they want to be accepted into the norm, while all the time claiming they are 'elite', or separate. Shameful! Their offspring have no idea. Paganism! Man glorifying man! | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Masons will deny they are a religion, & say they are a good ole fraternity that promotes good works & deeds. But When you get into there doctrine & degrees, you see they have a plan of salvation,& through their good works they shall receive the celestial lodge. The name of their deity is taken by infusing Jahova, Bal or bul, AN Osiris or ON Pagan god of fertility , it takes three masons to say it , each saying apart of the Word. "Jabulon" the 3 headed deity of Masonry. In the first Degree of masonry each canidate is blindfolded(Darkness) and told they are searching for the light of the lodge, note not the light of Christ, Christ said if you walk with me then you always walk in the light. How could joseph allow himself to be placed in Darkness if he was a prophet & Guided by Christ.Now comes the compass, square & rule in the ritual,which mormons still wear to this day. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 759 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.8 |
And yet you will not see a mormon wearing a cross. I was surprised to see a mormon site, not antimormon, which actually had two crosses on their page top. That is unusual. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
They see the cross as the method of execution,not the means for salvation. Christ made the cross his!! he bled on it. he possessed it. The apostle Thomas was the first known apostle to hang a cross in his sancuary. the Cross was a pagan method of execution reserverd for the lowly of lowest. Christ showed the pagan , romans ,jews,& gentiles etc. how he was beyond them. For those that preach the cross are rightious. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 72 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
I have been reading more into the masons and the knights templar since reading the Da Vinci Code. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye and js was well into it before and after he wrote the BoM. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 499 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.57 |
Steel: The symbols on the Temple predate the Masons by several thousand years. The Masons have markings on clothing worn in their ceremonies as a means of conducting the rituals, but these markings are not symbolic and not worn outside of their ceremonies. The cross upon which Jesus was executed would certainly have been used for more executions, before and after. The execution was only the final event in the Atonement. First, Jesus took upon himself the sins of all of us. Then he took every punishment, in order, which those sins would have earned under the laws of the time, up to and including execution. To focus only on the last is to disregard everything else that he suffered on our behalf. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.137 |
The atonement was one act on the Tree. How could this be the final event , it was only one event. The cross. There was only one sacrifice for our sins and that was on the cross. Atonement= Means "covering for sin". 1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his body on the tree, that we , being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness,by whose stripes ye are healed. This was no two act play, the atonement was the cross. It wasn't ACT ONE (GARDEN) ACT TWO (CROSS) IT was only one act CROSS. For Hebrews 10:14 SAYS: For by ONE OFFERING he have perfected for ever them that are sanctified. That ONE OFFERING was on the Cross. Don't tell me Jesus sweat great drops of blood in the garden, LUKE 22:44 and his sweat was AS it were Great drops of blood. Key word here (AS) I think if jesus had of bled from every pore, when he awoke his deciples they would of said Master why does thou bleed? His clothes would of changed color, due to the nature of clothing worn. also the roman soldiers would of wondered why he was bloody, before they got to beat him. I beleive it is saying Jesus sweated profusely, with heavy drops of sweat. Example: My wife roars sometimes AS it(SHE) were a LION. We know she is not a lion & she can't roar, AS it were Great drops of blood is a description of how heavy (beaded( his sweat was. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.133 |
The Mason are told their apron will be a shield before the Great White throne of God, We as LDS were told our garments are a shield against danger & pretection from harm. To be worn the majority of the time. Ephesians 6:16 Above all ,taking the shield of faith(IN CHRIST), wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. Garments , aprons? For it is your Faith (TRUST) alone in JESUS CHRIST,& THE CROSS ,that will be your SHIELD! | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.133 |
Can anyone tell me What the great white throne judement is in the Scripture? It's the Judgement of those that were dead in the spirit,THEY WERE according to thy works. Those alive in Christ are judge according to thy Faith & sit at the table of righteousness. Hint: REV 21:!! | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 510 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.164 |
Steel: So, all of the rest of the things that Jesus went through were for someone's idea of fun? Each was, in order, the punishments handed out for various crimes. The "one offering" was the entire process. Just like when your wife gives birth, there are stages which she goes through, each in order, and any which does not take place means no birth. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
I'm Saying He covered our sins on the CROSS with his DEATH & HIS BLOOD. It doesn't say FOR by 2 offerings he have perfected us. He took on the sins on the tree his DEATH OFFERED Payment for sin. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 853 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.87 |
Hiram Abiff. Could you explain what you meant by Joseph Smith was raised from the dead as...? | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 82 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Here is a good article as well on masonry. http://www.arthurchappell.clara.net/lifeonthesquare.htm Nulla | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 131 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Nulla , 2 years ago when i became a Christian & left the mormon church, i sat the elders(of my new church) down at my house ,because i had a lot of questions at the time. First i asked if any of the elders were masons, 4 replied no, but the last 2 looked at each other , then a me , and said they were masons & shriners. They went on to say that it was a good ole fraternity & they would in no way try to get me to join. I inturn told them that i had been a mormon for the past 23 years & in doing research , found out the first five mormon prophets were Masons, this had lead me to do a deeper research of masonry, & i had come to the conclusion that it was not compatiable with Christianity, I told them that it was a religon, it had a deity, it had a plan of salvation,& it seem to all be based on works & deeds. I told the elders thanks for listening to my concerns,we prayed & they left. Well i joined the church even though their were 2 elders as masons. Don't get me wrong, I do not think Masons should be elders. Should masons be in the Church, some say no, but i say yes , because it's the best place to witness. Well anyway about 2 months ago One of the Mason elders that was at my house 2 years before, came up to me before service, he said ,you know, 2 years ago when you talked from the heart at your house to us about masonry, it stay on my mind the past 2 years, & he said i WANT YOU TO KNOW 2 WEEKS AGO I LEFT FREEMASONRY & THE SHRINERS. This elder was in his 70's and had been this organization some 30 years , i about fell out in church, but you see we may not open the eyes of everyone,but sometime that seed does take root & people who want to know the true GOD will open their hearts and eyes. He is good friends with the other elder & i hope he will witness from that standpoint,But he has already set the Greatest example, by Leaving an unGODLY institution. Good article From You. I don't want the mason out of the church, I want the Mason Doctrine out of the Mason, the there will be no Masons in the church, only Good christian men. Steelsword, Fighting to spread the True Word of GOD. Jude 3 amen. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 134 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Solo, When my wife gave birth , it wasnt a birth untill it was a birth, their may have been stages leading up to the birth, but those stages are not the birth. Jesus Started the healing process of mankind,in the garden , he prayed for all the Jews & Gentile alike, But the atonement occured on the Cross, by his stripes we are healed,buy his death & blood on the cross ,we are perfected if we confess him as our savior. One offering for the covering of sin=Atonement. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
It's not as if nulla, steelsword or godchild need any help here, they are already doing a terrific job of telling the truth about the LDS and it's connections to Masonry -- however, I just wanted to add some more information. It's lengthy, but I'm hoping it can help for someone who might not want to leave the page and go to another web site. There is no question that the Mormon temple ceremony and the Freemasonry temple ceremony are very similar. Masonry itself describes itself as “not a religion” no less Christian. Any religious organization that borrows so abundantly from this pagan organization as Mormonism does can not possibly be Christian. Mormonism relies heavily on the Aronic Priesthood, and the Mechelzedek Priesthood as endowments for Mormon men. Christians know that the only priesthood Christians recognize is the priesthood of Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of all previous priesthood’s. Hebrews 7:15-28. Joseph Smith, the founding "prophet" of Mormonism, was himself, initiated as a Free Mason before his death. In fact, upon his death, Smith gave a Mason sign and a call that a Mason is to use in case of distress. The sign, according to the book, "Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony 1842-1990 by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, appendix C, pg. 144, is given by raising both hands and arms to the elbows, perpendicularly, one on each side of the head, the elbows forming a square. The words accompanying the sign, in case of distress, which Smith uttered are "O LORD, MY GOD! Is there no help for the widow's son?" (Freemasonry Exposed, p. 70). John D. Lee claimed that Joseph Smith used the exact words that a Mason is supposed to use in case of distress; "Joseph left the door, sprang through the windows, and cried out `OH MY LORD, MY GOD, IS THERE NO HELP FOR THE WIDOW'S SON!'" (Confessions of John D. Lee, photo-mechanical reprint of 1880 ed., p. 153). This account is also verified by Mormon historical records, Times and Seasons, vol.5, p.585. Following is a comparison to the Mason temple ceremony, and the Mormon temple ceremony, taken from the same reference as mentioned above by the Tanners starting on pg. 145. : The following are some of the parallels between the ritual of the Masons and the Mormon temple ceremony. Because some of the details of the temple ceremony have been changed [and will be cited and discussed later] in recent years, we are using the pamphlet, Temple Mormonism--Its Evolution, Ritual and Meaning, New York, 1931, to make our comparison. 1. Both the Masons and the Mormons have what is called `the five points of fellowship.' MORMONS - `THE FIVE POINTS OF FELLOWSHIP are given by putting the inside of the right foot to the inside of the Lord's, the inside of your knee to his, laying your breast close to his, your left hands on each other's backs, and each one putting his mouth to the other's ear, in which position the Lord whispers: `Lord--' This is the sign of the token: `Health to the navel, marrow in the bones...' [Temple Mormonism, pg. 22, the reference by Tanners] MASONS - `He (the candidate) us raised on what is called the five points of THE FIVE POINTS OF FELLOWSHIP...This is done by putting the inside of your right foot to the inside of the right foot of the person to whom you are going to give the word, the inside of your knee to his, laying your eight breast against his, your left hands on the back of each other, and your mouths to each other's right ear (in which positions alone you are permitted to give the word), and whisper the word Mahhah-bone...He is also told that Mahhah-bone signifies marrow in the bone." (Freemasonry Exposed, pp. 84-85). 2. When the candidate receives `The First Token of the Aronic Priesthood' he makes a promise similar to the oath taken in the `First Degree' of the Masonic ritual. MORMONS - `...we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots'... MASONS - `...I will...never reveal any part or parts, art or arts, point or points of the secret arts and mysteries of ancient Freemasonry...binding myself across my tongue torn our by the roots...' In both ceremonies the thumb is drawn across the throat to show the penalty. MORMONS - `Sign-in executing the sign of the penalty, the right hand, palm down, is drawn sharply cross the throat...' MASONS - `This is given by drawing your right hand across your throat, the thumb next to your throat...'" 4. Those who receive the `First Token of the Aronic Priesthood' give a grip that is similar to that used by the Masons in the `First Degree' of their ritual. MORMONS - `The Grip-Hands clasped, pressing the knuckle of the index finger with the thumb.' MASONS - `The right hands are joined together as in shaking of the index finger with the thumb nail into the third joint or upper end of the forefinger...' (Freemasonry Exposed, page 23). 5. Some of the wording concerning the `grip' is similar. MORMONS - `...Peter now takes Adam by the right hand and asks  `Peter-'What is that?' `Adam-'The first token of the Aronic Priesthood.' `Peter-'Has it a name?' `Adam-'It has.' `Peter-Will you give it to me?' `Adam-'I can not, for it is connected with my new name, but this is the sign.' MASONS - `The Master and candidate holding each other by the grip, as before described, the Master says, `What is this?' `Ans. 'A grip.' `A grip of what?' `Ans. The grip of an Enterend Apprentice Mason.' `Has it a name?' `Ans. It has.' `Will you give it to me?" `Ans. I did not receive it, neither can I so impart it.' (Freemasonry Exposed pp. 23-24). 6. The oath of the `Second Token of the Aronic Priesthood' is similar to that taken in the second degree of Masonry. MORMONS - `We each of us [can not read] covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field.' MASONS - I...most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear...that I will not give the degree of a Fellow Craft Mason to any one of an inferior degree, nor to any other being in the known world...binding myself under no less penalty than to have my left breast torn open and my heart and vitals taken from thence...to become a prey to the wild beasts of the field, and vulture of the air...' [Freemasonry...pg. 53] 8. Both have similar grips. MORMONS - The Grip is given by clasping the hand and pressing the thumb in the hollow between the first and second knuckles of the hand.' MASONS - `...the pass-grip, is given by taking each other by the right hand, as though going to shake hands, and each putting his thumb between the fore and second fingers where they join the hand, and pressing the thumb between the joints.' pg. 54 from book above mentioned. 9. In both cases a `name' is used. MORMONS - `The name is the given name of the candidate.' MASONS - `...the name of it is Shibboleth.' 10. The promise made when receiving the "First Token of the Melchezedek Priesthood' resembles the oath given by the Masons in the third or `Master Mason's Degree.' MORMONS - `Peter-' We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our bodies be cut asunder in the midst and all our bowels gushed out.' Number 10 continued: MASONS - `I...most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, in addition to my former obligations, that I will not give the degree of a Master Mason to any of an inferior degree, nor to any other being in the known world...binding myself under no less penalty than to have my body severed in two in the midst, and divided to the north and sough, my bowels burnt to ashes... 11. The sign of the penalty is similar in both cases, (The description of this sign which appears in Temple Mormonism is not completely accurate; therefore, we are using the account that appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune. The reader can see that this is the way the sign is given today (see page 470 of this book) ["this book" refers to "Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony; 1842-1990 by Tanner. An address and price for this book will be included at the end of this particular issue) - also - these differences in the Mormon temple ceremony will be discussed later]. MORMONS - "In this, the left hand is placed palm upright directly in front of the body, there being a right angle formed at the elbow; the right hand, palm down, is placed under the elbow of the left; then drawn sharply across the bowels, and both hands are dropped at the side.' (Salt Lake Tribune, Feb. 12, 1906). MASONS - `The Penal Sign is given by putting the right hand to the left side of the bowels, the hand open, with the thumb next to the belly, and drawing it across the belly, and letting it fall; this is done tolerably quick. This alludes to the penalty of the obligation: `Having my body severed in twain,' etc.' 12. In both cases a `name' is used. MORMONS - `The Name of this token is the Son, meaning the Son of God.' MASONS - `...the word or name is Tubal Cain.' 13. The conversation at the `veil' in the temple ceremony is very similar to that of the `Fellow Craft Mason' when he is questioned concerning the `grip.' MORMONS - `Lord-What is this?' `Endowee-the second token of the Melchizedek Priesthood-The Patriarchal Grip or Sure Sign of the Nail.' `Lord-' Has it a name?' `Endowee-' It has.' `Lord-' Will you give it to me?' `Endowee-' I can not for I have not yet received it.' MASONS - `...What is this?' `Ans-' A grip.' `A grip of what?' `Ans.' The grip of a Fellow Craft Mason.' `Has it a name?' `Ans.' It has.' `Will you give it to me?' `Ans.' I did not so receive it, neither can I so impart it.?' [Here, in the interest of time, I will skip to other similarities. What follows number 13 in # 14 & 15 , is the similarities between the grips known in Mormonism as "The Sign of the Nail." and the Mormonism vow of chastity and the similarities between it and Masonry vows. I will now skip to number 16.] 16. The `Oath of Vengeance which used to be used in the Mormon Temple ceremony resembles an oath in one of the higher degrees of Masonry. MORMONS - `You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray, never cease to pray, and never cease to importune high heaven to avenge the blood of the prophets...' MASONS - `We promise and swear, by the living God, always supreme, to revenge the death of our ancestor...' 17. Both Mormons and Masons change clothing before going through their rituals. MORMONS - `The candidate, being directed to these washing and dressing rooms and having divested himself of all his clothing, awaits his time in the bath...The candidate then retires to the dressing room, where he puts on a shirt and a pair of white pants and white stockings.' MASONS - `The candidate during the time is divested of all his apparel (shirt excepted) and furnished with a pair of drawers kept in the lodge for the use of candidates. The candidate is then blindfolded, his left foot bare, his right in a slipper, his left breast and arm naked, and a rope called a Cable-tow round his neck...' 18. Both Mormons and Masons use an apron. MORMONS - `Adam (Turning to the audience)-'In your bundles brethren and sisters, you will each find an apron, you will now put it on.' MASONS - `The Master returns to his seat while the Wardens are examining the candidate, and gets a lambskin or white apron, presents it to the candidate, and observes, `Brother, I now present you with a lambskin or white apron. It is an emblem of innocence, and the badge of a Mason...' [in 19, there is a description by Mormons of the anointing of oil that is very similar to the Mason temple anointing of oil. 20 compares a new name given to the candidate that is much like the Mason part of the ceremony. In 21, in the Mormon Temple Ceremony, the candidate cannot pass through the veil until he has given certain signs and words, this is also similar to the Mason Royal Arch Degree which is the Mason's veil.] 22. In the Mormon temple ceremony a man represents Adam. The Masons also have a man who personates Adam in the degree of `Knight of the Sun.' MORMONS - `Elohim-...`This man who is now being operated upon is Michael...When he awakes he...will be known as Adam!' MASONS - `Thrice Pussant Grand Master, representing Father Adam [remember - Brigham Young, a later Mormon "prophet" taught that Adam was God the Father], is stationed in the east.' 23. In the Mormon temple ceremony a man represents God. In the Mason's Royal Arch Degree a man `personates the Deity.' MORMONS - `When all is quiet, a man dressed in white flannels, representing Elohim, comes from behind the curtain...' MASONS - `One of the members now personates the Deity, behind the bush, and calls out Moses! Moses!' 24. Both the Morons and the Masons consider the square and the compass to be extremely important. The marks of the square and the compass appear on the Mormon temple garments and on the veil. MORMONS - `We now have the veil explained to us. We are told that it represents the veil of the temple. The marks are the same as those on the garments-the compass on the left and the square on the right side.' MASONS - `the three great lights in Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compass...the Square, to square our actions, and the Compass to keep us in due bounds with all mankind...' Even Mormon writer, E. Cecil McGavin, is willing to admit that the `square and the compass' appear on Mormon temple clothing: `It is universally known that Mormon temple clothing contain certain marks of the priesthood, including the SQUARE AND THE COMPASS.' (Mormonism and Masonry, page 72) 25. In the Masonic ritual the point of the compass is pressed against the left breast of the candidate. The Mormon temple garment has the mark of the compass on the left breast. MORMONS - The marks are the same as those on the garments-the compass on the left...' MASONS - The candidate that enters, the Senior Deacon as the same time pressing his naked left breast with the point of the compass,...' 26. The angle of the square is pressed against the right breast in the Masonic ritual. The mark of the square appears on the right breast of the Mormon temple garment. MORMONS - `...the square on the right side...' MASONS - `As he enters, the angle of the square is pressed hard against his naked right breast...' 27. A mallet is used by both the Masons and the Mormons in their ceremonies. MORMONS - `one of the Temple workers...gives three raps with a mallet...' MASONS - `he gives a rap with the common gavel or mallet...' " I do not post this information to mock or disparage the individual Mormon in any way. I realize that these temple ceremonies are held dear to a Mormon or RLDS. I post this because it has been said by LDS that the Mormon temple ceremony does not in any way shape or form resemble the occult rituals of Masonry. This lengthy post should put this argument to rest for the seekers of truth. Those who come to this topic to find more about Mormonism should know the entire truth of this organization. These rituals are not only non-Christian, but they are not even in the Book of Mormon. As consenting adults, we have the right to choose our own form of worship. Make no mistake, Mormonism and much of it's dogma and doctrine and practice IS NOT Christian, but those who choose to worship in this manner have every right to do so. I, and other Christians, object, when they call this organization Christian. To read more on this topic, the above information was taken from "Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony: 1842-1990." There have been changes in this ceremony, and often, the members themselves have not been made aware of these changes. The Mormon leadership has attempted to keep this secret. I once posted this information on another blog and a dear LDS man wrote to me that I was TOTALLY misinformed and no WONDER I was so adamant about exposing the teachings of Mormonism because HE WOULD LEAVE THE CHURCH HIMSELF if the things I quoted here had ever actually been part of the LDS Temple ceremony. When I was able to show him PROOF that these things had once been a part of the LDS Temple ritual (from articles in local Utah papers)l, he chose to turn a blind eye and politely refused to discuss the subject any further. Part of the problem with Mormonism, as it is with most Christian cults – it’s not faith in Jesus Christ that keeps an individual loyal to the organization (as the Jesus in these cults isn’t the true Savior in the first place), it’s much, much more. It’s the socialization and how much the social activities have become a part of the individual’s life. Their entire lifestyle would change and they would lose an entire network of close friends and collegues. I was able to show this man clearly that the Temple ceremony he took part in after 1990 wasn’t the same one he took part in, but he would not discuss it and at that point stopped all communication with me despite his bold claim in his opening e-mail to me. All of the changes in the Mormon Temple Ceremony prior to 1990 and after have been documented in this book. To order: http://www.utlm.org/ Or write to: Utah Lighthouse Ministry 1350 South West Temple Salt Lake City, Utah 84115 "In Christ alone I place my trust..." (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 142 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.144 |
Cjv : Check this out, each state , is goverened by a Grand Lodge, & each state usually puts out a booklet call the Monitor, it covers the Monitorial ceremonies of the BLUE LODGE(1ST 3 DEGREES). I have copies of the Kentucky,Indiana, & Nevada monitors. Here are some Quotes: "The Spirit Of Masonry" PG. xv In ref: To a Savior: the beleif was general,that he was to be born of a virgin 7 suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him KRISHNA, The Chinese, KIOUN-TSE: The Persians, SOSIOCH: The Chaldeans, DHOUVANAI: The Egyptians, HORUS: Plato, LOVE: The Scandinavians, BALDER: The Christians, JESUS: The MasonsHIRAM Their Jesus is Hiram Abiff!! Then Let us imitate our G.M.H.A.(GRAND MASTER HIRAM ABIFF)in all his varied perfection. let us emulate his amiable and virtuous character, his unfeigned peity to God & his inflexabile fidelity to his trust, that like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our supreme Grand Master to translate us from this imperfect to that all perfect,glorius and celestial lodge above. Where the Great Architect of the Universe presides. Hiram is Their savior http://www.masonicmoroni.com/Images1.htm | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 902 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.112 |
steelsword, thanks for clearing that up. I had read portions but not all of your reference to this information. The greatest sin of the mormon church is their redefining God. Their definition is: any man that has reached exaltation. That is why it is so easy for them to accept any man made doctrines. 50 years from now some mormon can look at this site and say, "look at the revelation joesdad and solopilot gave us. Why, it must be true! There is no proof that they were not angelic men, therefore their word is our gospel." The mason thing is just more evidence that joseph smith didn't receive revelation about temple rituals which mormons consider (sacred). They were quite simply copied from masonry. I was just reading the dna/mormon site. This guy answers the same as all mormons do. Their argument is not that dna cannot disprove the bom. Their argument is that the writer of the history of the jaredites couldn't have known where all of them were at the time they died, so some of them must have escaped. | ||
| cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
Steel -- man -- it just gives you chills, doesn't it?? And don't get me started on the Masons! No less the LDS Church stealing their ritualistic ceremony from the Masonic Temple ceremony and trying to pass it off as original revelatory "sacred" stuff... godchild -- what site is this that you refer to? The one Steel gave above? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 145 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.139 |
Cjv , i think she was talking about Jeff lindsay's site. He spills the same stuff as joesdad & solo. check him out. Then check these out: http://www.cephas-library.com/mormon_dna_bom.html http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon95.html | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 96 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Freemason have close ties with Enoch and Hiram Abif. Any wonder why enoch is mentioned as part of the "so called missing books of the bible" What about this 15. But three wicked men intervened and committed a horrible crime. They attempted to force one of the Masons, one of the faithful Masons who had discovered the treasure, Hiram Abif; or Hiram, the widow's son, to reveal the hiding place and the contents of the hidden treasure. 16. He would not reveal his knowledge and therefore they killed him. 17. While being slain, Hiram, with uplifted hands, cried out, `Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son?' This has since become a general Masonic distress call Does that distress call sound familiar? I have read it was used by a certain person in the hope that his slayers were masons and would take pity. I would think someone so close to god would have other words on his mind in a near death situation. Dan Brown in the Da Vinci Code points out some of these things re the Knights Templar. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 97 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
8. He placed two pillars inside the hill: a. One of marble upon which, written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, were found the historical events connected with the tower of Babel, and b. One of brass, which contained the history of creation, and the Secret Mysteries. These records were placed in the hill along with the treasure of the gold plate. 9. This brass pillar had a metal ball on its top, within which were contained maps, and directions of the world and of the universe, and which also acted as a sort of oracle. 10. Enoch then placed a stone lid, or slab, over the cavity into the hill. 11. Enoch predicted that on the other side of the deluge an Israelitish descendant would discover anew the sacred buried treasure. 12. As predicted after the flood, a great king, named Solomon, came to power and desired to build a sacred house for the in-dwelling of the divine presence. 13. Solomon and his builders, the Masons, while building and excavating for the temple at Mt. Moriah, discovered the cavern and the sacred treasure. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 98 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
I am sorry, I do not have any DNA evidence to support the above claims. Nulla | ||
| cjv (cjv) Junior Member Username: cjv Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.177.85.203 |
WOW Steel! Never heard of that DNA business. Thanks for the link info. Nulla -- great stuff! When I read it, I can't believe the LDS Church today insists they're Christian! [scratching my head...] Lastly, since I don't have everyone's e-mail -- whoever wants to check out a totally AWESOME Bible program that not only is completely free but without any spyware or adware, check out this link: http://www.e-sword.net/ This type of software would cost hundreds of dollars if there was a price on it. I have just gone totally crazy over it and stayed up way past my bed time the other night downloading all the additions/attachments to it! It's a terrific tool for apologetics ministry use! "In Christ alone I place my trust..." (Message edited by admin on June 09, 2005) | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 99 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Thanks for the site CJV As you said wonderful I will download it when I get home from work. Your a gem. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 100 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Steelsworld. re that site: http://www.masonicmoroni.com/Images1.htm I am dumbfounded. You can be a mason and a mormon and say you follow the true word of god. Nulla | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 287 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Just a few Comments / Questions: 1) When do you all reckon that the Masons started, and when their practices started? 2) When did Joseph Smith join the Masons, how long was he a member and how many meetings did he attend? 3) Can you prove that none of the Masonic symbols have no other meaning in the world, or through history other than those assigned to them by Masons? 4) What evidence do you have that the Masonic rituals are linked, in reality not through vague supposition, to any satanic ritual, rite or teaching? 5) From records, when did Joseph first begin speaking of the matters that were to be dealt with in the Temple and the restoration of the keys that would allow man to again do those things? 6) Why are their so few matters dealt with in Masonry rite, that have any comparison or mention in the Temple, and vice-versa? Why are those that are left only similar, and not identical? 7) There were many members of the Church in Illinois in the 1830’ and 1840’s that were Masons, some who were “high up” in the Masonic order – there are records of some of these leaving the Church and attacking vehemently on many points – please provide evidence of any of these ex-Mormon Masons attacking Joseph for plagiarising or copying the Masonic rites in the Temple – these men knew both sets of rites well – so there must be detailed comparisons and critiques from these men mustn’t there? That’ll do for the moment. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 904 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.171 |
joesdad, these are all questions you need to find the answers for, for yourself. Only then can you come back and show US why we are wrong. The evidence is before you. Do with it what you will, but we are not here to educate joesdad. Don't be so lazy. How is it, after all these years, you don't already have the answers? I think you were aware of them, but believed your leaders who told you to ignore them. So you are ignoring them now, aren't you? If you cannot provide answers to these claims, then don't respond at all. You bring nothing of value here. Your responses are empty. I would love to see evidence of one person who, after reading these posts, has joined the mormon church. You claim to have been a missionary. For what? It is so obvious that you wasted your time. It is never too late to start afresh, if you have the courage. If you are really 'happy' with your church and its doctrines, you would have come prepared. And you would not waste your time 'chanting repetitive, empty words'. You would be too busy doing all those 'empty works', which are to help you in your goal of exaltation. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 147 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Restoration: Since when did the Lavitical or Aaronic priesthood practice any of these rituals in the old or new testament. Your temple practices are NOT of the old testament or new. What is the definition of restore? Did you restore the temple recommend from the old testament,celestial marriage,Can you show any of us where there was a marriage held in the temple? Baptism for the Dead? In what Temple? The High Priest went into the HOLY of HOLIES once a year , Your priest Go into it daily. So you are trying to tell us this ritual was around before the masons ,Then then the masons started performing it, but they didn't have it quite right , so joseph restored it as it was supposed to be. Another Question , Joseph became a master mason in 1842, He was by then a prophet as you claim, Why then would he join an organization ,That is secret by nature,takes oaths to kill themselves if they reveal their secrets, praises allah, claims that Hiram abiff is their savior, & is resurrected in the name of hiram abiff? Also names a deity which combines 2 pagan deities with Jahovah. This man was a profit alright. Albert pike who wrote the Morals & dogma & was head of the Scottish rite during the time of Joseph, said in his own words that Lucifer was the bearer of the light in the masonic lodge. I just can't beleive that I was putting my salvation in hands of a man such as this. I say THANK YOU JESUS FOR OPENING MY EYES!! AMEN | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 104 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Steelsworld. With your wealth of knowledge on the masons, would you answer for me and for others. If Joeseph Smith was the prophet and leader of the lds and as he did then become a mason which is a recognised sect or belief or whatever we would class it as. Did the lds prophet and church leader then make a commitment as all masons do to obey a higher order in that lodge. In doing so would he not then be under the control and leadership of another by his own choice? Who would you view then as the leader of the lds. Smith surely cannot be accused of running away from his flock could he? I ask mormons where was he leading his people? Why would a grand master (if that’s the lodge leader) want to instruct a person who has a direct link with god? The same god we are told who created enoch. Brigham Young stated in the Journal of Discourses Vol 7 Page 289 "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever inter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith." Why would the prophet need someone else to tell him what to believe and to guide him to celestial kingdom So the grandmaster of the masons has to ask one of his servants to enter the celestial kingdom , js must have already vowed to commit himself to obey the higher order within the lodge to become a lowly mason. The significant factor in the ritual of the first three degrees of Freemasonry is that they are teaching a plan of salvation which does not depend on faith in Jesus Christ. We know why they broke with the masons, it was not through the churches belief in jesus, it was not through the word of god, it was because the male Mormon was being told he could only have one wife.. “There is another class of individuals to whom I will briefly refer. Shall we call them Christians? They were Christians originally. We cannot be admitted into their social societies, into their places of gathering at certain times and on certain occasions, because they are afraid of polygamy. I will give you their title that you may all know whom I am talking about it—I refer to the Freemasons.” -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. XI, February 10, 1867. . Why did js use the masonic distress call in his last moments and not something like, "I pray to Jesus for forgiveness" If the slayers had forgiven and let him live, I could just imagine what mormons today would be using that distress call for. Nulla | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 910 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.8 |
steelsword, I too thank God that my eyes and heart were opened to the truth. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 106 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
What is masonry? Why, a fragment of the old truth coming down perhaps from Solomon's temple of ancient days, and but a fragment, as Christianity is but a fragment of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. It was only to be had and enjoyed by those who hold the holy priesthood. The prophet Elijah revealed these truths; he possessed them anciently and he gave them in their perfectness, and simplicity and purity to the Prophet Joseph Smith. -Elder Marvin J. Ballard (President Northwestern States Mission.), General Conference Reports, October 1913/124. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 912 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.132 |
Matthew 23:16-22 What does it mean to "swear by" something? And what does Jesus' teaching imply? It was common in first-century Judaism to bind a promise or commitment by swearing by something precious. The same thing is common in our day: "I'll never do it again. I swear by it, by my mother's own good name." However, this practice led to a debate between the rabbis over what oaths were binding and must be kept, and which might be disregarded. Thus if one made a commitment and swore by the temple, the rabbis held that the oathmaker might fail to keep his promise without any penalty. But if he swore by the gold in the temple, he had to keep his word. While Jesus derided the rabbis' foolish rulings, the real problem resided in their notion that a person could give his word and then violate it without doing wrong. In Matthew 5;37 Christ taught, "Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No' be 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 148 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.134 |
It's quite amazing how the mormon temple endowment came about soon after joseph, became a master mason. Hopefully this link is still good, read it. http://www.foxgrape.com/ Click on the little colored boxes in upper left corner. | ||
| x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 19 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
This is a very intresting subject. I have researched the mormon-mason conection in-depth in the recent past and have my own theory on the subject, but any one who is intrested in more information should also research: illuminanti william morgan adam wiesshapt albert pike NWO CFR Its intreting to note that adam wiesshapt (illuminanti founder) called for a religion almost identical to the LDS faith in order to usher in the NWO | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 149 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.134 |
Check these out as well: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/pike.htm Luke: 12: 2-5 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs. I tell you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But i will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after killing the body,has power too throw you into hell. Mormons, Masons , Shriners, although you speak Your secrets in the inner rooms , the LORD has shouted from the roof tops & told us of your evil deeds, and has made known the trappings of satan for he is the bearer of the light in your lodge & temples. http://www.answeringlds.org/artGospellnStone.html Had trouble pulling this link up on my server , but maybe you will have success, Good luck. also:http://exmormon.com/mormonism/nohelp.html | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 290 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: Yes how amazing that soon after the commencement of his short dealings with Masonry - yet you fail to mention or notice that Section 124 of the D&C which was given as revelation one year BEFORE he became a Mason mentions many of the sacred temple practices you reckon CAME from Masonry - I'll say that again, he said what would happen in the Temple BEFORE his involvement with the Masons - that doen't fit with your claim he TOOK these practices from masonry does it? I understand JS became a "master" mason 2 days after joining, and I understand only attended in the region of 6 meetings in total, a real deep and intimate involvement hey? As I say to X11 below - where are the answers to what I ask - you all demand answers to false claims, but where are YOUR answers to valid questions? Godchild: No. I know the answers to those questions - you do not, and I am sure don't want to know, as the answers blow so many holes in your rediculous attemptt to claim the Temple ceremonies originated in Masonry, that you would need to drop the claim - as you are too scared to lose one of your anti-mormon crutches - you dare not look. X11: Just a simple enquiry, why should you NEED to look into all this non-mormon stuff if it is so blindingly obvious that JS just copied all the Masonic rituals into the Temple - with all of your research, can YOU give satisfactory answers to my questions that just plain and simple PROVE the links claimed? You have your THEORIES, which to me means you are TRYING to prove it right by moulding ANY information you come across to fit your opinion. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.201 |
joesdad, we have been giving reference to our claims. You haven't. Would you please share where you (book, etc.) got your ideas from? | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.201 |
Also, have you ever done a side by side analysis of masonic and lds temple rituals? I suggest you do so, then decide for yourself whether it is coincidence that they are the same. Then explain why God would give Joseph directions for rutuals that are exactly like those of a different group that follows a different god. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.201 |
Also, if js joined the masons after he received the visions of angels and the Father and the Son, why would he offend God by doing so. RE: Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me. Ask yourself, would I have done what joseph did? | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.201 |
Also, can you honestly believe that someone who received revelations and visions of God and Christ, would be so lacking in FAITH in that God and Christ, as to find it necessary to join an organization that required him to SWEAR to protect the rituals of that organization? | ||
| x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 24 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
joesdad, because some of my "THEORIES" on the mormon-mason connection are nothing more than theories, I did not share my theories I only offered reference info for others who might want to do research on the subject. My post was not directed towards you or anyone in particular on this thread. Therefore, YOUR THEORIES on me TRYING to prove theories is RIDICULOUS! | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.201 |
Perhaps you believe masonic rituals are God sent. Do you? | ||
| x11 (x11) New member Username: x11 Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
I asked an old "bishop" of mine about the moromn/mason thing and he could'nt really answer. He told me he joined the masons for protection!? I guess js did have enough faith in god to protect him while he was restoring the "true gospel" | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 292 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Sorry, some of us just have ideas of our own (I know, not a very Mormon thing to do), no books just questions that seem obvious to me, and that I expect yu to know the answers to as they form the basis of your claims. GC, so few of the Masonic rituals bear resemblance to what goes on in the Temple, you have to ask why JS took such little from them, if he did as you say. Why does it mean JS was lackingin faith, it could just as well mean he understood that some of their ritual did have it's origin in early Temple rites, and that it was a good place to do a bit of research. X11: Sorry you seem offended by what I said. However, as you claim to have researched the connection, I assume that you are of the opinion that you have insights into the connection that others may not have. Considering that position, and your statement you have a theory regarding that, and your reference to topics to study, I assume and think I do so fairly, that others doing such research will be able to constrcut a similar theory - the problem with theories are that they are not facts, just hypothesies based on known facts - which in the end means that you must be "making up" some of the information to come to the theory. Fact is not theory, so the question is why do you need to go to the extent of theorising based on some facts, and I again assume, taking the non-factual from your "research". Anyone could prove what they wanted about anything with that kind of "research" based theorising. GC: I believe that SOME Masonic rituals find their origin in early Temple worship, with such being influenced by God - however much of it created by man - we needed an inspired Prophet like Joseph Smith who inspired by God was able to recognise that part which was good, and reject that which was bad. X11: Can't comment on what your Bishop said can I? - did you ask him to explain further? Was the "proptection" he referred to possibly that he hoped would be afforded to the Saints by a common link with those around them that sought to harm them - i.e., if the local "antis" were Masons, would they think twice about attacking another Mason - I am NOT suggesting I know if that was the case - but as I understand Joseph chose to put his Chruch leadership ahead of his Masonry activities, this is a reasonable suggestion. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Joe, but what you fail to mention is that Joseph's brother was a Worshipful Master , the highest degree (33rd) before Joseph received his revalation in sec 124. Joseph was very aquainted with masonry even before he started his church. The fact is a so called prophet put on an apron, where he is told , this will be his protection when he goes before the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT OF GOD. Those that walk with Christ will never go before this judgement, yet your first five prophets said they were going before this Throne because they excepted their aprons & moved on to the next degree. | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
joesdad, your right people can rearange and adjust the facts to make it apear they are right in just about any situation including LDS TEACHINGS. My theories on the mormon/mason conection are not based on chronoligical factual knowledge I posses, which is why I called them theories I simply connected the dots and called it a theory. The mormon/mason connection is irrelavent since you do not have to trace back that far to find the fallacy of mormonism, if the "anti's" or truth seekers were unable to find untruths in mormon teachings until the js mason thing I would be the first to admit you would have a pretty strong case for what you believe to be the "true church" however, by simply tracing LDS teachings from newest to oldest one would very easily see the lies and contridictions found within the mormon church itself. This is of course after the same person could not believe what the bible says about false prophets, teachings ect.. Yes I did ask the man I formerly considered a "bishop" to explain further and what a got was typical answer to questions asked of mormons, you know the drill, "there are somethings we do not yet know, things will be revieled at a later date, you need to focus on what you are able to recieve blah blah blah, so on and so on" This is not an answer, so here is my question: When was Jesus or his apostles indirect or evasive in answering questions regarding the truth? And according to Jude 3 their is no need for a "restored gospel" at a future date, "ONCE AND FOR ALL" is enough for me. Its also very plain and easy to understand just as Jesus said his gospel was. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.172 |
Christains worship God. God makes promises to us. We CLAIM those promises. They are ours, and whoever wants them can claim them too. We don't need; mormonism or any religion. We have EVERYTHING. Including the truths of the Holy Bible and the guiding of the Holy Spirit. There is no question for us that we are right. Mormonism draws no such conclusion for its members. You cannot have truth without the true God, who is the God of the Holy Bible. We have light, you have darkness. We have love, you have debt. My God is an awesome God. Yours is man. We worship no man. | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
AMEN | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 114 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Joesdad: I understand JS became a "master" mason 2 days after joining, and I understand only attended in the region of 6 meetings in total, a real deep and intimate involvement hey" Any involvement showed that he as a supposed prophet was willing to listen to another higher office for advice and leadership, to me he deserted his followers. If you think as you do above I invite you to become a mason and attend 6 times over the same period js did then tell me what your lds think when you let them know. Or can I become a mormon attend 6 times over the same period and then tell you it is hardly an envolvement in your church? If it was not for polygamy the lds would still be involved with the masons. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 115 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Franklin D. Richards, who recorded many of Joseph Smith's Nauvoo Discourses, made the following statement April 4, 1899: Joseph, the Prophet, was aware that there were some things about Masonry which had come down from the beginning and he desired to know what they were, hence the lodge. The Masons admitted some keys of knowledge appertaining to Masonry were lost. Joseph enquired of the Lord concerning the matter and He revealed to the Prophet true Masonry, as we have it in our temples. Owing to the superior knowledge Joseph had received, the Masons became jealous and cut off the Mormon Lodge. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.136 |
Also when Joseph became a mason he aligned himself with a universal God under which all men through the lodge could receive salvation. Joesdad, is the God of mormonism the same God of Islam, because Islam says that Christ was not the savior, but just a mere prophet. In masonic rituals is Christ , stated as the savior, or someone else? Under the common Gavel lecture,all men(Muslim,Hindu, Jews, Satanist,Buddist) are lifted up to the universal God of Masonry, G.A.O.T.U. , as well i have already showed you that Hiram Abiff was their savior. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.136 |
Joesdad, have you read the rituals of the first three degrees that Joseph went through? Have you read the oaths that Joseph spoke with his own tongue? Do you understand that Joseph who was supposed to be a prophet who walked in the light of Christ, Let himself be placed back into darkness in the 1st Degree, so that he could take an oath to search for the light of the Lodge. Do you understand that he bowed down, before the WORSHIPFUL MASTER of that Lodge? Do you understand he was given an apron to protect him when he goes before the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT? DO you understand he was resurected in the name of Hiram Abiff in the 3rd Degree? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 294 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: I am surprised that you seem to have failed to consider, or have ignored the fact that though his brother was a Mason he of course was not. As a Mason his brother would have sworn oaths or whatever that would have precluded his discussing the goings on at such meetings, indeed if as you appear to claim his brother spoke in such extreme depth regarding the Masonic rituals he would have been in severe breach of those oaths and would have fallen foul of the Masonic “authorities”. I do not accept, and I mean because it fails to take into account this restriction on giving out such information, that Joseph was aware of such details as to be able to invent Temple ordinances based on that information – and that also leaves open the question expressed above of why so little of the Masonic rituals find any comparison in Temple ordinances. You accept, I believe that the Masonic order was at that time secretive, and such breaches of oaths would not have been dealt with in a cavalier way, hat is of course unless you are able to produce evidence that his brother was reprimanded. I have in the past briefly looked at documents not connected with the Church, that are based on early apocryphal CHRISTIAN writings – these are replete with references to matters that have striking resemblances to what I know as Temple ordinances – things like the wearing of aprons, and specific signals or handholds, etc are mentioned in documents accredited with an origin far predating Joseph Smith. I would guess were you to do some real research into it, there are many organisations throughout the world within which you would find similarities to temple ordinances – so would the claim be that Joseph copied from each of these, or that they had a common (and if so what) origin, or heaven forbid it is co-incidence. Have you any explanation, or can you give any good reason why so many of the Masonic rituals are totally missing from the Temple?, and why Joseph would have selected just those that you claim appear? I have been to meetings at many other churches, said amen when they did, taken part in discussions – does this mean I converted, or maybe that I was there to experience how others worship, and ensure I was correct in what I previously thought was their manner of worship. I stood when they did (even if in an LDS meeting I would not have been called upon to stand) sat when they did (likewise) even on occasion put money in the collection dish, and accepted literature, took a hymnal as I entered – are you certain that you would be able to tell from outward appearance only, my intention for visiting, or whether I was a regular member? I bet not, yet you claim to know, after over 160 years what Joseph was thinking and what is true purposes where in actions you only know of through comment and “what it probably was like” – you know nothing of the sort, you suppose because it suits you. X11: Intending to be direct in answering your question, have you read the New Testament?, are you suggesting that all of the examples Christ gave were meant for all to understand, none were cloaked as to allow those that could see, and hear the true meaning be able to get the full benefit of His teachings, whilst those that came to hear only to mock and scorn just heard a story? Of course there was no need for a restoration at the time the book of Jude was written, as the Apostasy had not taken hold and the truth lost. Nulla: Of course that is how you would see it – and of course ignore how little he was involved. To believe what you want gives you strength to support the false claims of the Temple having a Masonic origin. Did only the nazis use a swastika as an emblem, through time have only Christians used the sign of the cross? – if the answer is “no” – then may I ask how you reconcile the use of such emblems to have what you will find are opposing meanings for different groups? Then explain why only a few of the Temple ordinances bear resemblance to Masonic rituals, and they MUST represent the same things? – again only because it fits your purposes. You cannot comment on Joseph reasoning for his short involvement in Masonry can you, really, as you just don’t know – in reality your apparent definition of an infallible Prophet would exclude many of the OT ones wouldn’t it – or do you now claim Prophets who show any sign of human weaknesses as false? It is very easy for you to make attempts at value judgements, but it is clear form the scriptures that when Gods purposes are at hand, what you or I THINK is irrelevant. Interesting to note that you do not comment on the quote – do you agree that he had such superior knowledge, causing the Masons to cut off the lodge? | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 116 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Joesdad: The Masons admitted some keys of knowledge appertaining to Masonry were lost. Joseph enquired of the Lord concerning the matter and He revealed to the Prophet true Masonry, as we have it in our temples. Are you telling me god told Joseph Smith what the real truth of manonry is? I did not comment on this because it shows how people under js were lead to believe such brainwashing rubbish. Regarding your answers to me ... they have nothing to do with what I questioned. You start rambling about emblems I question you as to why your prophet joined the masons and you answer like this. I cannot make out the link I do know for sure your prophet joined the masons as had many of your prophets. I ask you WHY did js join at all If it was for a day or 10 years. WHY? Come to terms with facts Joesdad instead of trying to find ways around them. Show me that I am not stating facts. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 296 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: You stop stating facts when you assume you know why Joseph joined the Masons - as you have nothing to prove this - you really have no proof about the similarities - it is assumptions. I believe that Joseph was inspired by the Lord to seek for places where remnants of the old ways remained - God got him to work for some of the details. I do not claim to be inspired as was Joseph, nor do I see I have any need to become a Mason, why others have is a question for them to answer. Eblems - rambling? - a question for which you have an answer I presume? There have been those that have joined the Church for the sole pupose of "dicovering" its "hidden" teachings, i.e. to lie their way to the Temple to find out whats going on, and "spill the beans", accepted? I suggest Joseph joined the Masons realising it had truth he would find helpful when reconstructing the Temple ordinances - as simple as that I reckon - neither you nor I can PROVE what his actions meant, so we both end up with our suppositions. | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
Okay Joesdad, thanks for clairifying! Are you for real dude? I thank thee for thou answereth, "wilst" thou please answereth in tounges which I speaketh? | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
Cool no js joined the masons incognito. Hey at least they putting some action into the story now! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 297 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
X11: What meanest thou? | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.206 |
 Me thinketh xll showeth the ignorance of Joseph when the man tried to use such language. Thanks for the laugh, x11!  And a special thank you to joesdad for falling into the trap! Methinks humor definitely hath its place. Peace to you all! | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.136 |
Joe , I have an uncle who's a mason, we talk about masonry Quite often. I pretty sure he trust me with his secrets. So you are are saying the rituals were too secret for Hiram to tell Joseph, whom he thought was a prophet of God. If i were a mason & my brother was a prophet of god, I might say hey Bro, are these rituals in line with GOD ? Joe what you just did , was placed masonic secrecy over brotherly trust. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.206 |
Joesdad, You seem willing to accept other books which claim to be gospel: example, the apocrypha. May I share an article with you from everystudent.com? The gospel of Thomas (which mohammed references in the Quran, do you consider the Quran gospel also? gc) Is the gospel of Thomas legitimate? The gospel of Thomas was written around 140 A.D., long after Thomas had died. Thoug it bore some resemblances to the New Testament's authentic Gospel of Matthew, it also contained wildly different messages. The description of Jesus did not fit anything the early Church knew to be true of him. (Mohammed claimed Jesus was his biological brother, go figure! gc) As books like the gospel of Thomas were written and circulated among the early church, it was not difficult for people to discern (a gift given to believers, gc) the forgeries. False writings like those and the gnostic gospels countered the known teachings of Jesus and the Old Testament, and often contained numerous historical and geographical errors (as the bom does, gc). Eventually, an official list of New Testament books became necessary for the following reasons: (1) As Christians were being martyred books were being destroyed (so, which ones to protect?). (2)In translating the books into Syriac and Old Latin, (no fake egyptian here, gc), a listing of authoritative books was important. (3) False books and false teachings were always challenging the church and leadership needed to be clear. In AD 367, Athanasius formally listed the 27 New Testament books (the same list that we have today). Soon after, Jerome and Augustine curculated the same list. What every christian knows: The Qumran was written by Mohammed. The Book of Mormon was written by Joseph Smith. But the Bible is unique among the many sacred books in the world. One person did not write it. Rather, the Old and new testaments were written by forty (40) different authors, located in Asia, Africa and Europe, over a 1600 year timespan. Also, the Bible writers all convey the same message. If you want to use those other books as your authority, why aren't they added to your Book of Mormon? | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 117 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Joesdad: Nulla: You stop stating facts when you assume you know why Joseph joined the Masons - as you have nothing to prove this - you really have no proof about the similarities - it is assumptions. But I did not assume I knew why… I asked you did you know why, how is that assuming on my behalf.? I wrote: I do know for sure your prophet joined the masons as had many of your prophets. I ask you WHY did js join at all If it was for a day or 10 years. WHY? After assuming you thought I assumed, I now assume, you assume, I always assume. Joesdad. Of course that is how you would see it – and of course ignore how little he was involved. To believe what you want gives you strength to support the false claims of the Temple having a Masonic origin. Did only the nazis use a swastika as an emblem, through time have only Christians used the sign of the cross? – if the answer is “no” – then may I ask how you reconcile the use of such emblems to have what you will find are opposing meanings for different groups? Then explain why only a few of the Temple ordinances bear resemblance to Masonic rituals, and they MUST represent the same things? – again only because it fits your purposes. I must ask again, how does this tie in with my questions. The last line you state “again only because it fits your purposes.” May I ask you what purposes? I will ask again for an explanation as to what this line means from the statement I have already quoted. “Joseph enquired of the Lord concerning the matter and He revealed to the Prophet true Masonry. Am I to believe that God again spoke to js, this time informing him of true masonry, the type of masonry that is antichrist, or the type that is Christian. I for one did not know that masonry was Christian. Wouldn’t’ the masons already have heard about jesus? So what would have made them so jeolous of the lds to cut them off if it was not the inclusion of the Mesiah. If they were so jeoulous as to cut themselves away from mormons, how did they know what Mormons were doing. Why didn’t they simply adopt what god had told js who had already taken an oath to be a mason. Why then if the lds had gods version of true masonry did js allow mormons to be mislead by the false masonry? The other thing I would like to know Joesdad. If this is what you say: “Steelsworld: I am surprised that you seem to have failed to consider, or have ignored the fact that though his brother was a Mason he of course was not. As a Mason his brother would have sworn oaths or whatever that would have precluded his discussing the goings on at such meetings”, and then this: There have been those that have joined the Church for the sole pupose of "dicovering" its "hidden" teachings, i.e. to lie their way to the Temple to find out whats going on, and "spill the beans", accepted? I suggest Joseph joined the Masons realising it had truth he would find helpful when reconstructing the Temple ordinances I take it that (or assume again) that js knew nothing about the masons(they pledge not to disclose such matters), he then joined and made a pledge to the same god that later told him about the truth of masonry. In doing so this prophet then lied to both the god he was making an oath to and all the other fellow masons. So your telling me that js and other leaders of the lds, such as Brigham Young lied? If js is not included in “there are those” that you talk about who would lie then he went in with full intent to become a mason and did so, otherwise he would not have went back a second time if he did so as a liar then he continued to lie to his fellow mormons and masons, as did Brigham Young who remained a mason. As Steelsworld said. “Do you understand that he bowed down, before the WORSHIPFUL MASTER of that Lodge? Do you understand he was given an apron to protect him when he goes before the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT? DO you understand he was resurected in the name of Hiram Abiff in the 3rd Degree?” I am using as my reference, yours and other fellow mormons to learn why Joseph Smith became a mason. Or am I missing something? Is there another lds explanation that I need to take into account before making my ASSUMPTION Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 118 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Journal entries made by Joseph Smith, Jr. in March 1842... Tuesday, 15.-I officiated as grand chaplain at the installation of the Nauvoo Lodge of Free Masons, at the Grove near the Temple. Grand Master Jonas, of Columbus, being present, a large number of people assembled on the occasion. The day was exceedingly fine; all things were done in order, and universal satisfaction was manifested. In the evening I received the first degree in Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office... Wednesday, March 16.-I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree. -Joseph Smith. Diary. History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Vol. 4, Ch. 32. | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.168 |
Nulla, everyone is keeping me in stitches today. Reminds me of the song 'I was looking back to see if you were looking back at me, and it was plain as plain can be, that you were looking back at me.' This has nothing to do with the subject, but it was too good to resist. How about 'if an assumer assumes you assume, who assumes who assumes the assumed? | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.168 |
We won't hear from joesdad for a week now because he will be so confused trying to answer questions he has no answer for. Let's get something straight. God and Jesus did not need the cross to fulfill their plans. The cross is a symbol. The way Christ died was the most horrific death at that time in history. Humiliation at being arrested for no crime. At having the very men you were the closest to on earth turning away from you. After healing and even bringing back to life, of feeding them and showing them nothing but love, those same people betrayed him and called for his death. He was beaten, He was hung where all could see, with common criminals. He was taunted, 'come down, if you are God. Save yourself. look at him, He says he is God and he cannot save himself'. Being sold for 30 pieces of silver. Being denied not once but three times by Peter. Of being given vinegar in place of a drop of water to quench his thirst. Of having his hands and feet nailed, not tied, nailed to a tree. And then, God turning away from him at that last moment because God cannot look on sin and Jesus was sin for what? To save us. And what were Jesus' last words. Not 'watch me, I will come down from here', but "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." And today, what are we doing? We are arguing about whether the Word is given to us by God's authority. Was God a man and Jesus another man? We aren't going to give up the rituals because simply loving brings no glory. Who sees that or cares. We need leaders who we can look up to, instead of eye to eye with. It is easier to appoint someone else so that when problems come, and they do, we can say "he's the leader, it's his fault." Joseph Smith wasn't the only guilty party. The people idolized him, and do to this day, even with all the evidence showing he was a common ordinary man who when he got power, he abused it to his death. He mocked God and man. We can commit adultery, pedophilia, and spousal abuse because we as men know better than God. God allows us to do anything we damned well please. Shame! Shame! All of our time should be spent saying, "Forgive me, Lord. Thank you, Lord. I know I can never repay. Please show me what you would have me do." | ||
| godchild (godchild) New member Username: godchild Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.168 |
We won't hear from joesdad for a week now because he will be so confused trying to answer questions he has no answer for. Let's get something straight. God and Jesus did not need the cross to fulfill their plans. The cross is a symbol. The way Christ died was the most horrific death at that time in history. Humiliation at being arrested for no crime. At having the very men you were the closest to on earth turning away from you. After healing and even bringing back to life, of feeding them and showing them nothing but love, those same people betrayed him and called for his death. He was beaten, He was hung where all could see, with common criminals. He was taunted, 'come down, if you are God. Save yourself. look at him, He says he is God and he cannot save himself'. Being sold for 30 pieces of silver. Being denied not once but three times by Peter. Of being given vinegar in place of a drop of water to quench his thirst. Of having his hands and feet nailed, not tied, nailed to a tree. And then, God turning away from him at that last moment because God cannot look on sin and Jesus was sin for what? To save us. And what were Jesus' last words. Not 'watch me, I will come down from here', but "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." And today, what are we doing? We are arguing about whether the Word is given to us by God's authority. Was God a man and Jesus another man? We aren't going to give up the rituals because simply loving brings no glory. Who sees that or cares. We need leaders who we can look up to, instead of eye to eye with. It is easier to appoint someone else so that when problems come, and they do, we can say "he's the leader, it's his fault." Joseph Smith wasn't the only guilty party. The people idolized him, and do to this day, even with all the evidence showing he was a common ordinary man who when he got power, he abused it to his death. He mocked God and man. We can commit adultery, pedophilia, and spousal abuse because we as men know better than God. God allows us to do anything we damned well please. Shame! Shame! All of our time should be spent saying, "Forgive me, Lord. Thank you, Lord. I know I can never repay. Please show me what you would have me do." | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 302 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
Nulla: Splitting hairs, of course you must assume you know why JS became a Mason - as I have yet to see your quotes from Joseph himself commenting on it - you presume what fits your claims - you do not state any FACTS regarding Joseph reasons for his choice. Good comedy value, but shows your inability to really prove anything about their reasoning. GC finds it humourous as she cannot prove it either - easier to mock when in company of the ignorant. If you doubt it is clear your pupose on this thread is to attempt to belittle the temple by over emphasising similarities between it and Masonry, please reread what you say - of course if this is not your purpose, it appears your pupose is not being achieved. It is clear that you consider all of Gods puposes and ways must be ones YOU can explain - an interesting thought, but totally wrong. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 120 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Joesdad. Please show me the simalarities you speak of. It is time Joesdad that you answer the questions instead of diverting as you do. Show me where I have belittled your temple in the manner in which you quote below. "If you doubt it is clear your pupose on this thread is to attempt to belittle the temple by over emphasising similarities between it and Masonry" And please Joesdad... read what you write. You state; "belittle the temple by over emphasising similarities between it and Masonry" after asking. "Then explain why only a few of the Temple ordinances bear resemblance to Masonic rituals, and they MUST represent the same things? I am baffled. Ask a question, reply actually using your very words in which you state that mormons lied to gain knowledge with the masons or the words of from other mormons and thats your answer to me. It is I asking why he would join. How can I be stating that I know his reason when I am asking for it. I posted again for the second time... now a third. "I do know for sure your prophet joined the masons as had many of your prophets. I ask you WHY did js join at all If it was for a day or 10 years. WHY? " Did JS lie while a mason or to become a mason? (it was you who said masons did this) or Did he do so at his own free will? is this an easy way to ask? When you answer that one I can then ask another sensible question. I will do my very best in the future as well to omit any indication that I have a sense of humour, for you apparently do not. Seeing it disproves my ability to reason. Can you give me the reason that I should come to? Based on the answers you have given me in this thread. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Junior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.21 |
Nulla, I can't help laughing again. I wish joesdad could sit down with george carlin for 20 minutes. His mind would really be...... | ||
| truerae (truerae) New member Username: truerae Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.216.155.95 |
This post also deals with the freemasonry (Satanic blood oaths Moses 5:29 which began with Cain and Satan) that infiltrated the mormon church from the beginning and how JS's ego and Carnal Desires (D&C 3:1-9 Joseph was warned by God that he would fall because of his ego & "carnal desires") allowed this and other abominations, such as polygamy- suppression of women, and alterations to the Book of Mormon. How do you intelligently convince an LDS (Mormon) of the evils of their church? Truth including the fact of paid clergy even though the members are lied to about this! And also with knowledge of the atrocities of the actual mind-controlling, money-changers (controls businesses/money laundering throughout the world) of the LDS church. For example, Hinckley is named as one of the key supporters of the MK-ULtra CIA/LDS abusive mind control program being used covertly by the CIA as Hinkley served for years on the Board of Directors of Zions First National Bank (since 1968) and a full-time church employee since 1935. (Page 118-119 of "Trance Formation of America" www.tranceformation.com) Many CIA agents have confirmed the LDS leaders involvement in the scientific CIA mind-control to bring about the prophetic "Millennial Peace" through control. "Trust me I'll NEVER lead you astray" is part of the public relations propoganda as well as the flattering words of "All is Well in Zion" (Book of Mormon Nephi 2:28 prophetically warns about the Great and Abominable Church and the false prophet/apostles who will proclaim this of being "hypocrites and liars...the Anti-Christ, etc." as Hinckley proclaimed these very words in General Conference 1996) and "We are the ONLY true church!" Hinckley has probably never read the Book of Mormon as evident by his ignorance - his former missionary companion quit the church when he heard Hinckley was made an apostle - saying that he "would never trust that man." Unrighteous leaders of any church (all religions are based on men's interpretations of God's teachings) CAN lead the people astray. The LDS people have been brainwashed into believing the lie that "the prophet (profit$) will NEVER lead you astray." (1890 Manifesto Proclamation) The LDS church IS the most evil of any church on this earth because they have corrupted and altered the pure Ancient History of the Americas (the "other sheep" taught by the Savior after His Ascension from Jerusalem - these "other sheep" who knew of the Savior's birth prophetically have historically believed in the "Great White God") preserved for this day and divinely translated by Joseph Smith who then fell even as David & Solomon of old did. His repentance & heart is up to the Lord to judge -not us. Joseph Smith was warned in D&C 3:1-11 against "following his own will and CARNAL desires" (this scripture is NEVER talked about in the LDS church). The historical Book of Mormon (altered with the 2nd printing in 1837 changing the identity of God to plural Gods) clearly states that polygamy is an ABOMINATION unto the Lord AND states that polygamy is the REASON for the destruction of the Nephite people. No Mormon ever understands that as it's not taught over the pulpit. (Jacob 2:23-24 & Jacob 3) Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball were both 33rd degree Masons under the directions of Head British Mason Albert Pike (founder of the KuKluxKlan and worshipper of Lucifer, Royal Scottish Masonic Rites). Heber built a masonic lodge prior to infiltrating the LDS church and on page 11 of his autobiography states "before angels I swear that I have always been faithful to my masonic oath." Moses 5:29 shows that the first masonic satanic blood oath was given by Cain to Satan - a secret blood oath to "swear to never tell or suffer your life to be taken" (required LDS temple satanic blood oath - sign of the penalty of symbolically slitting throat, cutting open heart, disemboweling intestines taken out in 1990 but is still "implied" today along with oath of secrecy). Brigham Young argued with and then excommunicated William Smith (the Kirtland temple had NO Masonic rituals & women & blacks held the priesthood - see historical work of D. Michael Quinn) after the MASONIC murder of Joseph Smith over the Masonic satanic rituals put into the Nauvoo Temple which later burned to the ground. I can write much, much more. This research is also backed up by a profound NDE resulting in the knowledge that their is NO church in Heaven only truth that Jesus is God, the Eternal Father which knowledge will assist to unite the world in truth. Religions help people to focus on God which is good until the pure teachings of God are revealed. www.mormon.citymax.com} | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 75 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.143 |
The Bible defines 'pure religion' as helping the poor and widows. | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
truerae, I assume whoever had the NDE had an experience indeed but that is not information that backs up anything, as it cannot be proven. The bom is false PERIOD. If you or some one who close to you created the www.mormon.citymax.com web page I commend you or them on a very nicely done web page, however the bom is not a book about god. It is a book about supposed "lamenites" which has been proven false and historically incorrect, thats not to say that everything on that site is incorrect. I do appreciate your posts though. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.137 |
I agree x11 , the original 1830, said Joseph Smith Author It was written by him. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 78 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.7 |
truerae, I suggest that you read the Holy Bible first, then the bom. Then the bom will become totally unimportant to you. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 305 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Why do I say you attempt to belittle the Temple?. You make comments regarding the Temple ordinances that make it seem as though you are either aware of or familiar with these ordinances, and as such are able to comment upon them and their origin, especially in those matters where it appears to you that they are closely linked enough to Joseph Smiths brief acquaintance with Masonry for you to feel he used the information gained by him whilst a Mason (or from knowledge given to him by his brother) as a basis from which to create the Temple ordinances – I hope this correctly paraphrases your view on this matter. Had you taken the time to find out, consider or take into account that for LDS the temple is a sacred place – I as many many before me use that word and mean it to be quite distinct from the word secret. Were it secret, then of course the Churches major failure would be to keep it so. To signify it being a sacred place, the words above the door to each Temple indicates it is a House of the Lord. To treat the Temple or the Ordinances therein with sarcasm or inappropriately would, I consider be an effort to belittle the Temple. Whether the meaning behind what you say may be in a different manner, your attempts to discuss the Temple, considering your lack of experience within it, or knowledge of it, the words themselves appear to mock, and attempt to discredit it. Therefore I feel totally justified in saying that you, and the others posting here do so in an effort to belittle the Temple. You have attempted, along with others to draw parallels between Masonic symbolism, and the temple, whether ordinances undertaken there or symbolism used in connection with it. Many accusations have been made on this thread. May I take one, and question the validity of it. Although I believe only cjv has raised the matter of the “relationship” between the use of an Apron in the Temple and in Masonry, and though only in a brief comment in attempting to draw a parallel, I see that no one has added to what she said, nor have any of you disagreed with her. I take the liberty of addressing this to all, and including comments upon some matters not actually raised here, but will likely have been on the pages you get your information from. It is not clear whether you find the use of an Apron in the Temple as actually objectionable, or whether just see it as similar to Masonry. The first use of an Apron is as you are all well aware contained in the 3rd Chapter of Genesis, I can see no reference there that would indicate that God found the Apron itself as wrong or bad. Of course the REASON that they wore it was that they had sinned, but that of course in no way means the garment itself represents sin. In fact, it represents modesty, and God seeing the attempts they had made to secure their modesty created for them a more substantial garment. Remember (if you knew) that the LDS one is GREEN, symbolising the one used by Adam & Eve, the one used by Masons being of Lambs wool, different material due to different origin. You will have read, that the time the Apron is used during the Endowment is in connection with that event. Interestingly, some sites do claim that the link is with the Apron worn by Satan, and therefore further linked in with Masonry – but this is just a pure misrepresentation of the truth. Does the use of an Apron mean that the claimed link is reliable? – definitely not. I ask you to consider those occasions on which such an item is referred to in the Bible, apart from the one mentioned – I notice that the Word used for Apron also means “girdle”, the two therefore being synonymous. Also, is there any reference to such a garment in the Bible that could support the use of it in a righteous manner? "And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins." (Isaiah 11:5) Though only using the garment as a symbol, the Lord obviously views it in a positive manner here. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. (Revelation 1:11-13) Obviously, this is a garment not solely used by Masons or those involved in Satanic pursuits! …and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work. It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together. And the curious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen. (Exodus 28:4-8) Clearly here it is used as a symbol of righteousness, and connected directly with the Priesthood. It’s importance is it appears amplified by the detail in which it is described. This is another link to the TRUE meaning of the Apron in the Temple. This is just one of the points you attempt to draw parallels. I know what this garment represents in the Temple Endowment Ordinance, most of you do not, therefore I can tell you with certainty your efforts to link Masonry to the temple based on what you read, and THINK you know, is merely leading you away from the truth of the Temple. Going back to Adam and Eve and the Temple, compare the following excerpt from a book I understand was written by a non-Mormon, and ask why such documents exist which when read side by side with the Temple Endowment leaves us asking how Joseph just knew so much about these things? W. Lowndes Lipscomb, The Armenian Apocryphal Adam Literature (Armenian Texts and Studies 8) (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania, 1990), 262-264. When Adam departed and was walking around in the garden, the serpent spoke to Eve and said, "Why do you taste of all the trees, but from this one tree which is beautiful in appearance you do not taste?" Eve said, "Because God said, 'When you eat of that tree, you shall die.'" But the serpent said, "God has deceived you, for formerly God was man like you. When he ate of that fruit, he attained this great glory. That is why he told you not to eat, lest eating [it] you would become equal to God." When she heard the advice of the serpent, she wanted to become divine. She promptly picked and ate of the fruit. And immediately she became stripped. Now Adam came and saw his wife stripped, [and] he turned and said, "What is this you have done? Why did you eat of that fruit and become stripped?" Eve said, "This fruit is extremely sweet and tasty; you take also [and] eat." She wanted to deceive Adam. Adam said, "Shall I eat and be stripped like you?" And Eve said, "I ate too much and was stripped because of that. You eat just a little." Adam said, "I cannot taste it and become like you." Eve said, "Even if you eat too much, you will not become stripped, because God loves you." When Adam heard this he took the fruit into his hand, but he was afraid to eat. But Eve cried and begged him and said, "Eat and do not separate me from you. If we live, let us live together, and if we die, let us die together." Now Adam thoroughly examined the fruit in his hand for three hours. Now he would want to eat it, and then he would not. But when he looked at the woman's begging and [her] tears, he felt pity in his heart. When he saw her nakedness, he was afraid to eat. When he saw her beauty, he became foolish. Even though she was stripped, she was nevertheless beautiful because she was newly created and she glistened like a white pearl. But Adam, because of his love for the women, could not restrain himself and he ate of the fruit and stripped himself of the light. Because I deem the Temple and the ordinances carried out in it sacred, I do not feel it appropriate that your attempts to discredit be responded to further (though I imagine at least some of you cannot understand this or the sacred nature of the Temple, and will continue to mock and belittle it - I feel sorry for those of you that take that course) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Junior Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Don' t feel sorry for me, i know quite a bit about the temple, but the fact is the Lord's house is everywhere not in a temple made with hands. God changed adam & eve's fig leaf because of Modesty, hmm? also you just stated the preisthood garments of the Aaronic preisthood above, so if the church is restored , how come you don't wear the garments mentioned above,but instead underware with the compass , square & rule on them. Does Satan wear an apron in the temple endowment? The lord rejected the Fig leaf apron,& yet we put those aprons on our bodies right their in the temple. Christ is MY Temple in him alone i put My Trust, For my faith in him is my sheild. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Member Username: godchild Post Number: 96 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.200 |
The mormon temple is a building. It is impossible to 'belittle' a building. You consider the rituals inside it to be sacred. My bedroom or livingroom or kitchen or bathroom are as sacred as your temple. Which is to say, none of them are sacred. In the Bible, the people were not allowed to go into the temple. Only the priests. The people brought there sacrifices there. That's it. Before there was no sin, there was no necessity for law. Law did not exist. When man sinned, laws were required in order to give men a chance to accept the punishment then be forgiven. When Christ was crucified, he took the sin, all of it, to the cross. His own self was the sacrifice for our lawbreaking. He fulfilled the law. He became the mediator, the one to stand before God and say, "I will vouch for him/her. He/she is mine. They are forgiven." The commandments are not the law. We live by the commandments now. We have a covenant between ourselves and God through Christ to keep His commandments, and when we stumble, we ask for His forgiveness. That makes our sin null, by repenting. God no longer remembers it in the book we will be judged by. God cannot lie and he cannot go back on his word. These are his promises. The temples and its rituals mean absolutely nothing to God. Jesus said, "I stand at the door (our soul) and knock." If you answer the 'knock' (accept him, believe in him) he will come in and sup (eat, fill, sustain, strengthen) with you. This is the Holy Spirit who is in us, not in a building. His promise from the time it was spoken was 'I will never leave you'. He said nothing about going to a building called a temple and do old rituals that mean nothing. He said nothing about the covering for our bodies, only that we do not dress for the eyes of men. Do not expect us to have any respect for a building that negates Christ's sacrifice. If we do, we deny Christ, and that we will never do. All of the things mormons store up on earth will be destroyed, along with everything else. Do you think God, who created everything, cannot replace anything that exists more gloriously than before. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 314 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: A pity you only know quite a bit about the Temple, but fail to understand what you think you know - the LORD did NOT reject the fig leaf apron, you are putting words into His mouth He never said - why would you want to do that I wonder? GC: Yes He could, but time and again He chooses not to, but gets mankind to do the work | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.133 |
Lets see ,Gen 3:7 They were naked & They chose to sew fig leaves together as aprons. The aprons were made of their knowledge , God Chose "coats of skins" & clothed them. God rejected mans knowledge over his. The fig leaf apron came about because of sin. Joesdad, was their ever such an endowment in the biblical temple as this ? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 147 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.11 |
What a great bumper sticker that would make. joesdad could get rich quick with that one: THE LORD DID NOT REJECT THE FIG LEAF APRON! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 148 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.11 |
What a great bumper sticker that would make. joesdad could get rich quick with that one: THE LORD DID NOT REJECT THE FIG LEAF APRON!ask a mormon for christian truths | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 149 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.11 |
Can we quote you, joesdad: 'can't say He did, can't say He didn't, but since we like to wear little figleaf aprons on very special occasions, let's pretend He did.' | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 150 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.11 |
This one might even be better: WANTA GET REALLY CLOSE TO GOD? PUT ON A LITTLE FIG LEAF APRON. ask a mormon. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 151 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.11 |
Hey, guys. Don't copy the last two posts without express permission from godchild. I'm gonna copyright em. Thanks. You can however, copy this one: SALE: SLIGHTLY USED FIG LEAF APRONS. CALL LDS CHURCH. HURRY AS THERE IS A LIMITED SUPPLY. most of us wanta keep ours, we like them so much. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 152 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.11 |
joesdad, I sincerely want to thank you for starting my day with a good laugh. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 317 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: No, that is no indication at all he rejected them - come on, do I really need to explain such plain scripture to you? read the verses in Chapter 3 in order, what did he do just before he made them clothes of skin - why he had just kicked them out of the safety of the Garden of Eden into the harsh world outside - the leaves would have been useless, Adam and Eve knew nothing of making clothes so God being a caring Father made them some more suitable for the world they were to enter. I am amazed that you could not work this out. GC: OK - keep up the standard | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 158 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.29 |
Why did God clothe Adam and Eve in animal skins following their sin? This was God's first proclamation of the gospel, the good news that God in grace will accept the death of a substitute in place of the death of the sinner. Of course, no animal's death could serve as an adequate substitute for any human being. But throughout the Old Testament animal sacrifice provided an object lesson. The repeated sacrifices were repeated promises that one day, through a sacrifice's substitutionary death, God would redeem mankind. Larry Richards, author | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 159 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.29 |
You see, joesdad, God always knows what is better for us and provides it. So even if you do really stupid things, he still loves you. And as a bonus, you don't have to run around wearing a little white apron with fig leaves on it, playacting like Adam and Eve. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 160 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.29 |
I just invisaged a pygmy pulling away from a doctor towards the boiling pot, while holding a dripping head in his hand saying "I gotta do it, I gotta do it. It's the only thing that can add to my stature." | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 161 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.29 |
Whoops! I meant to spell invisioned. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 162 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.29 |
I do apologise. It's just the more I get into this stuff, the more ridiculous it sounds, and my way of responding is making jokes instead of screaming and scratching at the air for relief from such nonsense. At times like these I am reminded of a time I took my daughter and several of her girlfriends to the beach. One girl brought her younger sister. We were talking about something and this little girl got so frustrated, she fell to the sand on her back and with arms outstretched, she looked to the sky and cried out, "OH God. Take me away." You really can't appreciate it if you didn't see it. She knew how to get our attention. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 163 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.29 |
Like Judge Mathis (one of my favorites) says, "I'm just playing with you."  | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Joesdads, Many a Christian scholar would disagree with you. But you & the Masons keep on wearing your apron's and underware if you must. http://mikeblume.com/kingdbap.htm | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Also : http://mikeblume.com/veil1.htm | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 164 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.146 |
steelsword, I just got a bare start reading this man's words. I'm going to get into the whole list as time permits. Thank you so much as he expresses so well to help us understand through Jesus Christ our sins are covered. I think I love reading the Word more each day as people lead us to pastors who know God and can really explain what God wants us to know. All kidding aside, I cannot imagine living my life now as a mormon. God gives us insight in small and great lessons, all just as important. I am discovering as I answer these posts, I have invariably studied the night before just what comes up the next day. God is moving us forever forward. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 318 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: Many a Christian scholar? The link you give does not in anyway say that God rejected the figleaf apron. In fact, I am interested at the authors claim that there was another way, which Adam would have taken had he not sinned, into another type of world. Do you agree with him on this - that Adam could have continued to live in his unenlightened state? Steelsworld, you don't have to try to prove EVERYTHING we say is wrong. You do not have to admit anything, just realise that God did not reject Adams covering, and just replaced it. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 172 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.15 |
Neither does it say you cannot receive scripture by putting your head in a hat. Why aren't the rest of your prophet's sticking their heads in hats to receive their revelation? Ask them sometime. Note that either jd read my post and couldn't accept it as truth, or is only here for the sake of argument, "having the last word". | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Adam covering was do to sin, God rejects SIN !! Adams covering was not Good enough , Period. God Made them another that made sacrifice for their covering,untill the Sheild?covering of Christ came. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Joesdad must of read a diffrent article than I did, for this one says that the apron was not good enough. Joe please keep your underware on & wear your apron , that is the choice you have made, But for those of you Who are seeking a true relationship with CHRIST, realize the he is your sheild & covering! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 176 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.250 |
Mormons have no faith in Jesus Christ. Theirs is a different god. A god created by js and by and their cronies, with a great deal borrowed from the 2/3 of the world who are pagans who by the statements here of sp, accept them over christianity. In joesdad's question to steel, he is assuming everyone believes that Adam was in the spirit world with God before coming to earth. (Mormons believe Adam was part of a plan that he agreed with God in the spirit world he would come down and commit sin) Christians do not believe that, (because the Holy Bible doesn't teach it),only mormons and other religions who have adopted pagan beliefs. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 324 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: NO, the covering was to cover his nakedness, which came due to the KNOWLEDGE he came to as the result of his sinnning - you are missing out big chunks of the story - yes he rejects sin, but nowhere does it say he rejected Adams efforts to cover himself - you are either puposely misinterpreting Gods actions, or reading into His actions thoughts that only satisfy your bias. Please tell me which paragraph you interpret as saying that the apron was not good enough (from the article). Now, I have checked what Dummelow and Farrar (real respected theologians not internet wafflers) say on this point, what do they say? - NOTHING, and why? - because there is nothing to be said - you seem to be putting more trust in that article than God my friend. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 179 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.211 |
joesdad, Adam had already covered his own nakedness by hiding from God in the bushes. If Adam's covering was acceptable, why do you think God covered him with an animal's skin? Do you think Dummelow and Farrar (real respected theologians) know more than the writers of scripture? I don't think they would agree with you. Nelson's Study Bible, (the New KJV)contributors are: Ronald B. Allen, Th.D., Dallas Theoligical Seminary Barry J. Beitzel, Ph.D., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School Darrell Lane Bock, Ph. D., Dallas Theological Seminary James Borland, Th.D., Liberty University Robert B. Chisholm Jr., Th.D.,Dallas Theological Seminary G. Michail Cocoris, D.D., The Lindley Church Ronald Dennis Cole, Th.D., New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary Joseph Edward Coleson, Ph.D., Nazarene Theological Seminary Barry C. Davis, Ph.D., Multnomah Bible College Darryl DelHousaye, D.Min., Phoenix Seminary Arthur L. Farstad, Th.D., Journal of the Conservative Evangelical Society H.Wayne House, Th.D.,J.D., Michigan Theological Seminary Donald H. Launstein, Th.D., Heritage Theological Seminary Bruce M. Metzger, Ph.D., Princeton Theological Seminary Moishe Rosen, Jews for Jesus and many more. These people have not retranslated the KJV but have defined hebrew and greek words, for example. Their statement is: The real character of the Authorized Version does not reside in it's archaic pronouns or verbs or other grammatical forms of the seventeenth century, but rather in the care taken by its scholars to impart the letter and spirit of the original text in a majestic and reverent style. This is what they have to say about Adam and the fig leaf. Gen.3:7 The serpent was right-they knew (Adam and Eve) good and evil. Their eyes were opened and they discovered they were naked. 3:21 This is the first place the Bible mentions the killing of animals for human use-this time for tunics. 3:22 become like one of us: By means of their rebellious act, the man and woman now shared something with God. But they were also at enmity with Him because of their sin. Adam and Eve's knowledge of good and evil had made them not wise but foolish. Death will now come to humankind. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 68 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.143 |
Dummelow and Farrar(real respected theoligians),I SEE YOU PUSH ANYTHING THAT(FAIR,LINDSAY,BYU,ETC.)PUSH. If there is nothing to be said it is because they realize most intelligent people know God rejected the fig leaf apron. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 331 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: So who exactly do you consider a respected theologian - as you only produced evidence of an internet waffler - Dummelow & Farrar are the books I have at home, but that is no reason for me not to be able to use them. Again, insult the intelligence of those who have a reasoned view opposite to yours. GC is rubbing off on you. In reality you have no good reason to think God rejected the figleas apron, but think it must be wrong because the opposite may give what I have said some credibility, and you wouldn't want that would you?! | ||
| x11 (x11) Junior Member Username: x11 Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
Mormon fig leaf aprons are another tool of satan in order to get the blind leaders of the blind to mock God by saying: "we can cover our own sins thanks" | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.141 |
Dummelow is Quoted by the Christian Scientist as well to push their agenda. I don't insult you Joesdad, You read who ever you wish. I think if we took a poll of Christian orthodox ministers on the fig leaf apron the Majority would come to the conclusion that God rejected the Apron. Drummelow was an early 20th century liberal theologist, & many twist his Ideas to push their occultic agenda. Joe was he a trinitarian? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 334 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: Head out of the sand time for you mate, you are unable to provide any substantial view from anywhere on what must be (if you are correct) a matter worthy of discussion by any creditable Theologian - where are you quotes? - the one you have dug up does not even support your view. X11: Your comment emphasises your ignorance of the Bible and of the Temple | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.140 |
Joe you are the one who jump on to Drummelow as such, you say because he does not speak on the fig leaf apron , then it must not have been rejected, but then i ask you if Dummelow was a trinitarian and you fell to answer , because you already know the answer, so you use this man when he fits your agenda. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 337 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: No, you have no answer, and no evidence of any authority at all that agrees with you, so you deviously attempt to take the conversation in another direction. Stick to the point. I used 2 authors who I have books of at home, if you are able to direct me to others (not your internet waffler!)that disagree with them, I will consider what they say. Surely you have something of merit amongst the library of documents you boast of? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 186 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.138 |
steelsword, joesdad speaks of internet wafflers as if they are enemies, and yet he just mentioned that he 'googled'. I'm pretty proud of my rubbing off on others. My children and grandchildre's lives are a testament to that. Not everything about me rubbed off on them, but enough for them to be christians who love the Lord, as I do. I think joesdad is afraid I will rub off on him. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 343 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: John Wesleys Commentary on the Bible 3:21 These coats of skin had a significancy. The beasts whose skins they were, must be slain; slain before their eyes to shew them what death is. And probably 'tis supposed they were slain for sacrifice, to typify the great sacrifice which in the latter end of the world should be offered once for all. Thus the first thing that died was a sacrifice, or Christ in a figure. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/WesleysExplanatoryNotes/wes.cgi?book=ge&chapter=003 From Commentary of the Bible by Matthew Henry (1705): We have here a further instance of God’s care concerning our first parents, notwithstanding their sin. Though he corrects his disobedient children, and put them under the marks of his displeasure, yet he does not disinherit them, but, like a tender father, provides the herb of the field for their food and coats of skins for their clothing http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=ge&chapter=003 From Jamieson Fausset & Brown Commentary on the Bible: God made coats of skins--taught them to make these for themselves. This implies the institution of animal sacrifice, which was undoubtedly of divine appointment, and instruction in the only acceptable mode of worship for sinful creatures, through faith in a Redeemer http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=ge&chapter=003 The 1599 Geneva Bible: Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God u make coats of skins, and clothed them. http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=ge&chapter=003 My point is obvious, the relevance of the figleaf apron is one manufactured by you, or borrowed by you from some anti-LDS source which you have accepted without bothering to research. I doubt any other of your "evidences" have been any better thought out or researched. Is your desperation to attempt to prove the Church false, and pretend yourself justified at turning your back on it so great that you are willing to not sell, but give your soul away? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 75 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
i think you just made our point, in every instance GOD clothed them in coats of skin, They themselves used a fig leaf apron ,Unexceptable to cover sin . I Give My soul To CHRIST & HIM ALONE. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 190 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.185 |
Do you think he will tell you the significance of the fig leaf apron? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 345 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: Finally on this point, as it is clear you will be sticking to your unique interpretation of the facts. You have provided no evidence AT ALL for your interpretation. Not one single, statement quote or reference that say God rejecting the figleaf apron, it is said that you must fool yourself to find justification in your belief. | ||
| x11 (x11) Member Username: x11 Post Number: 55 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 208.186.103.20 |
JD, I think steel made his point very clearly and you in fact backed it up. Attorney? well uh okay! I wonder how many of your clients have lost because you have backed the oppositions story up. Sorry I cant help it! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 360 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
X11: Who's the Attorney? Try and think about what you say first, it helps, also have a go at an original thought. Steelsworld can provide no evidence at all that God saw the figleaf apron in any negative way, the sin that lead to it yes, but the garment, no. The covering provided by God was necessary for at least 2 reasons, as a physical protection from the harshness of the world they were to enter, and secondly as a reminder, a symbol of what they had done (and it is suggested in similitude of the necessity for the Lamb of God to die for those sins) - to attempt to expand this to a condmnation of the original apron - simply because it sounds good when attacking the temple - cannot be justified, and is no more than false statement of Gods intent or desires. Grow up from the childish one liners and participate in the discussion. If you are an adult, how come you can't express yourself? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 208 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.35 |
I think x11 expresses him/herself very well with a few words. I don't see him saying 'steelsword, hurry back, I need you'. I notice you practically copied my post with an explanation ver batim. So who are you to speak against others. I see your very short 'vacation with the wife and kids' petered out pretty quick. And it certainly did nothing for your disposition. Do we really have to have you here for the next couple of days? Ask your wife if maybe she could entertain you for a little while longer, please. I suppose mormons can think of men and women wearing aprons sewn out of leaves under their animal skin clothes if they want. I'll bet Adam and Eve were smarter than your average mormon is. I think God may have had a chuckle over their itching though, don't you? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 371 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Did you go through the Temple yourself? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 252 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.73 |
No. Can you answer the question as to whether the rituals defined on these threads are true or not? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 400 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: As I understand it, any details of Temple rituals are taken from sites that have obtained their details by recording them. There are in fact very few actually described or mentioned in any detail here, in comparison to the information that is available on the several ceremonies that exist within the Temple. Some of the details given above were removed from the Endowment ceremony before I went through myself for the first time, but of the remaining (of which there are only a few elements of a much greater ceremony), they appear to be accurately accounted (though the meaning is not properly or fully discussed). In an attempt to use an analogy, what is reproduced here is the equivalent of describing the picture on a puzzle by only referring to the reverse of a few pieces that make up one edge. Obviously the picture cannot be described or imagined, just as those posting here cannot describe the real meaning of the Temple. But instead of admitting that, they pretend to know, and thus find themselves having to make up things to fill in the massive voids in their knowledge. The Temple is the House of God, with each and every ceremony having Christ, and our desire to return to live with our Heavenly Father at it's centre. When I do work for my ancestors it is in the hope that they too will accept Christ - nothing done is by way of compulsion as we recognise that to be the way that Satan proposed. If what I do is truly from God, then it can only benefit others - if it is not, then it means nothing and will have no adverse effect on anyone. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 263 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.46 |
I appreciate your explanation. The '-if it is not, then it means nothing and will have no adverse effect on anyone.' is what I have a problem with, not that you don't have every right to do what you wish. You do indeed. Personally, the mormon church has had an adverse effect on me and others who have spoken to me about it. This is what I have been trying to explain here. Can you appreciate my fear, in supposing 'it is not' my mother dies without knowing a truth that will save her forever? This not only has an adverse effect on nonmormons, but a traumatic effect. As a christian, I must serve the Lord, however poorly I may be able to do so. I think it would be similar to one of your children leaving your home to join a group similar to the Branch Davideans or Jim Jones group, and never seeing that child again. | ||
| elijahrock (elijahrock) New member Username: elijahrock Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.177.16.115 |
Hi everybody. Is there room for one more in this discussion? I have deep ties to the LDS Church, and I am also well aquainted with Masonry. Steelsword and Joesdad are guilty of the same fallacy. Joesdad has charged Steelsworth with this fallacy, and vice versa. Both Joesdad and Steelsworth have certain deeply held beliefs, and both Joesdad and Steelsworth interpret evidence through the lens of these beliefs. Perhaps "fallacy" is too strong, for matters of faith differ from the matters of reason in which I was trained. Both Joesdad and Steelsworth have raised interesting questions; both have dodged questions. Is the purpose to prove to the other that they are wrong, or to prove to themselves that they are right? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 447 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
MISSYJOYCE: If you look at Steelsworlds quote posted above on 4th May you may have a copy of "The Spirit of Masonry" Elijahrock: You may be trained in matters of reason - but you don't explain yourself too well my friend - what is this fallacy non-fallacy you refer to but fail to detail? At the end of the day, I am sure that all that we want to know is the truth. Me, I would like others to know that whatever reason they may have for thinking otherwise, my attendance at the Temple is nothing to do with Masonry. (Message edited by joesdad on June 15, 2005) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 119 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.144 |
Miss joyce 47, I think joe is correct in that some "monitors" have parts in code. G.M.H.A. for instance would be (Grand Master Hiram Abif) WM would be worshipful master etc. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 448 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: I do appreciate what you say, and am sure it is the selfsame fear that your mother has about your own decisions regarding the church. You know what your mother believes about Jesus Christ, and I am sure despite the things you say here, you know she strongly believes in Him and that through Him she can return to her Heavely Father - despite your claims to the contrary, you know she relies on Christ and relies on Him. So you really have nothing to fear for her. Hey Steelsworld: I have taken a screenshot of your post and put it on the wall - you agree with me - are celebrations in order?  | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Intermediate Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 121 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Don't grab no JOHN COURAGE yet? Laughing . | ||
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