| Author | Message | ||
     milli (milli) New member Username: milli Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Hello Everyone, There is a lot of Negative things being said about Homestead Heritage In here. While they may be true, and their teachings blur the face of God. I have just a few things to say. They sure do make some quality gifts and crafts, and great ice cream! As quant and unrealistic as it may be They are trying to uphold in their lifestyle, what may for some be a healing and restorative process from the constant bombardment of carnality from the world. If it wasn’t for the required lifetime membership and total submission to your pastor, some good may actually come from HH. I believe that while there is much hurt and pain being caused by the unfocused and distorted view of Christ, There are people in HH who love the Lord, and serve him only. (Maybe the majority). God loves his children and will never forsake them, he will lead and guide them and open their eyes to see that He is much greater and Bigger than HH. His people are everywhere, as I learned when I left HH. While in HH I was under the belief that we had closer friends, deeper relationships than normal Christians. I thought normal Christians didn’t know how to walk in the spirit. I’ll just say, I WAS STUNNED. Everywhere I turned God sent just regular people to me, people that I had judged, and they blew my socks off with their wisdom and love. God is meeting the needs in my life every day that I seek Him. I say all this for my friends and family still in HH. Please pray and ask God to open your eyes ,to see past all the faults and what may seem to be harsh words in some of these postings and let God reveal the truth no matter how ugly, and ask is Jesus really the center of my life ,do I shine with the joy of the Lord? How do I feel inside, am I afraid .? In other words ,do I follow all the temple patterns because God has impressed them on my heart and convicted me? Or do I do them because I’m under Bro. so and so and I made a commitment to obey him in his leadership in my life? Or because God himself told you to? ( I’m not talking about moral law) . I just urge you not to be a Pharisee and judge others for not washing their hands before they eat, and talking to tax collectors. I know some of the people who you think are attacking HH, but I know that they pray for you and wish no harm upon HH and consider you Brothers and Sisters in Christ. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Since you believe that they are brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, what do you think about my comments on Matthew 18? Please, I am not trying to attack anyone here, but simply trying to understand why ya'll feel this is profitable, instead of doing this in the Biblical fashion. Please go to the original thread and read my comments. Let me know what you think.} | ||
| milli (milli) New member Username: milli Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
I believe as truth hunter said, it is not possible to abide by HH patterns of communication and be heard. Joining with others to state a grievance is considered a worse sin than anything you might bring to their attention. In Old Testament terms you would be a Dathan or Korah. Thats just my take on things. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
But we do believe in the Bible right? I mean, it is clear that there is a pattern to follow. None of this fits that pattern. Some of you even admit this. That is why instead of contesting my view, you are simply saying you think it to be impossible! So if it is very difficult to be heard according to the pattern set by God's wword, does that exempt us from obedience, and permit us to take any course of action? I have a hard time understanding how we can judge others for not following the scripture as we see it, yet some of us are even admitting the biblical pattern, but not following it, because it is thought to be " impossible". So we are allright if we disobey God's Word, while we publicly judge them for the same? truly, this is madness.} | ||
| rbeechner (rbeechner) New member Username: rbeechner Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 65.143.101.128 |
Real truth, I have to go with milli on this one. As you are a former member you may know this already, or maybe things changed in the years after you left, but the leaders of the group go to great lengths to suppress criticism by present or former members. Criticism of the leadership is interpreted by the group as being inherently sinful, so finding two or three other members to go to the leaders with grievances is really unthinkable. You're pretty much on your own, and if you do go to your group leader or to an elder alone, the chances are very good that you will be told that the real problem is not your stated grievance but your unwillingness to submit to God's constituted authority. In other words, if you have a problem, you ARE the problem. If you persist in making waves, you may very well find yourself being publicly rebuked or mocked or ridiculed in the big meeting. After that, you'll think twice before voicing your concerns again. Once you're out, of course, you're considered an apostate and are shunned by the group, so getting someone in the group to even listen to what you have to say is pretty much impossible. Former members who have contacted leaders to air grievances were told to bring their complaints before a "board of elders," which, as you know, is the leaders themselves. This, I think you will agree, doesn't offer much hope of any kind of satisfactory resolution to concerns about abuses of authority within the group. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Nobody is contesting the pattern I have shown in the Bible. Supposing you are 100% right, and I am off base. Supposing it would do absolutely no good, and only make things worse to gather a few trusted men and approach the leadership while being a member. Does this change the pattern set by the scripture? Should we then excuse taking action in the secular realm simply because ( if ) we feel that they are acting unscripturally? Whatever happened to America? Why is it our obligation to change the way they believe? Are you not free? Do I not have the right to choose another church? Am I required to control their beliefs? Is that my responsibilty, or yours? Is it their right to believe in heavy handed authority? Is this America?  You spoke of those former members outside the group who have been offered the chance to face a board of leaders and voice concerns and/or accusations. This is Biblical. If one has accusations to make against an elder, let it be with witnessing elders. Could one not bring their own witnesses also? Just asking, to evoke thought, maybe it is possible. You say it would do no good. I admit they would be unlikely to receive what was said, or so my natural mind tells me. But then why not live on with one's life? Need we bring it into the secular arena? What is the point, if not to bring persecution for their beliefs? If it is true, and I am NOT saying it is, that HH is some mind-controlling spiritually abusive brow beating cult, isn't that their American dandy right to be so!? Why MUST their beliefs and " errors " be resolved by us within their group, when we chose to leave?!! Truly, like Salem's hysteria, like Rome's Inquisition, this is madness! No more freedom of religion, boys and girls. }} | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Intermediate Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 341 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.238.89.201 |
Real_truth, I don't know anything HH, I just wandered on to this thread but kept reading because I was intrigued by the similarities to a group I grew up in. So my questions would be in reference to "my" group: should it be brought into the secular arena if the group is guilty of child abuse and molestation, spousal abuse, psychological abuse, etc.? If I choose to leave the group, am I free biblically to turn my back on the victims trapped in a system they have no way of escaping on their own? Does "freedom of religion" include twisting and distorting Scripture to justify the perversions of a "leader"? If the "leaders" refused to hear the concerns of dozens of trusted men and barred access to the rest of the group, is it "madness" to use a forum like FACTNet to try to get information to them? | ||
| tikvah (tikvah) New member Username: tikvah Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.72 |
great observations, just_curious. praying for those behind, if not going to them and trying to convince them of the grace that is available to them, is a necessity. | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) New member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Real Truth, I want to quickly go over why I feel your argument of Matt. 18 is not valid. Mt. 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. Mt. 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that `every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." [Deut. 19:15] Nowhere does it say that the witnesses have to agree with you. Needless to say, none of the three that I went to dozens of times did. Even so I don't think this scripture applies to this situation. I may have given examples of individuals who have fallen prey to intoxicating power positions, but what you fail to realize is that these postings are not against any Person, But against a doctrinal imbalance. An imbalance that is damaging to the soul. I have to say yes these people have a right to chose. But I think you will agree with me that if one of your loved ones joined Islam and were marching forward in Jihad, you might want to say something. If you saw someone backing off a cliff that would plummet them to their death, would you stand there calmly and say, "Well that's thier right,... God speed!". If that is the way you feel, I hope you're not the one watching my back. I am simply trying to be a warning sign on the road of life and warn others of the dangers ahead. If you ran the gauntlet and came out unscathed, praise the Lord....., I know many who didn't. (Message edited by truth hunter on April 16, 2005) | ||
| csilliman (csilliman) New member Username: csilliman Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 12.144.228.3 |
When I went to J.T about the wildness of the elders children directed toward my daughter before a fair, mentioning that it was my understanding that how your children acted reveled things about you and I was concerned that no discipline or apology was issued. I was told not to go to the parents directly that they were to important to be bothered and what was wrong with me. I was offended and therefore showed lack of submission. The facts of my daughter being harmed was not an issue since it would disrupt the fair by dealing with the leaders children. G.L. and I had a four hour phone conversation the day after we left and I asked if he would like me to sit and share with them what they had done against my family in a nuetral setting. His only voiced concern was that I would not publically expose them (his words). That was a Sunday morning. Monday morning a meeting was held in J.T.'s house on the land to find what ever evidence against me was available to discredit my stand against the fellowship. "What can be done to quiet the threat of the sillimans who were visable to the community of Waco." | ||
| milli (milli) New member Username: milli Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
1Ti. 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1Ti. 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 1Ti. 4:3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Real Truth, I want to quickly go over why I feel your argument of Matt. 18 is not valid. Why quickly? I hope you would take time to consider my view, since I , like you, am an ex-member of HH and feel I have a valid voice! }Mt. 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. Mt. 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that `every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." [Deut. 19:15] Nowhere does it say that the witnesses have to agree with you. Needless to say, none of the three that I went to dozens of times did. However, it does not say that you are to go see two or three different witnesses at different times. Actually, the scripture clearly states, in these words, to " take one or two others along" and clearly this means they would accompany you on this endeavor. As you yourself admit, this never happened. You openly admitted, as I showed in the other thread, that you skipped that step, and went right into " bringing it to the church" which to you means the public secular world! Even so I don't think this scripture applies to this situation. Really? So you do not count any of them as having ever been your brothers? Are you openly affirming that not one leader in that movement is your brother that sinned against you? Are you openly then affirming that it is a Devil worshipping cult, and none of them serve God? Step up to the plate and affirm, don't be afraid. If they are not your brothers, than openly declare them to be servants of Satan! (Please please read Matt 12: 31 first! ) But if you cannot do this, if you lack the fortitude, than you inadvertantly acknowledge they are brethren who have sinned ( in your opinion ) and then you are bound by the steps in Matt 18. So step up! Affirm! Multiple choice! A. You were in error, and they are brethren who sinned against you ( in your opinion ) and you should back up and obey Matt 18. OR B. You are correct, and Matt 18 is not applicable, because they are not brothers who sinned ( in your opinion ) but are diabolical preachers of the darkness (Matt 12:31 )in which case you are not bound by Matt 18. OR C. You are feeling fear and confusion by my presentation, and until you are sure, you will stop blabbing careslessly at the mouth in a public secular forum, as to your respect for the possible application of Matt 18. Pro 21:23 Whoso keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth his soul from troubles. I may have given examples of individuals who have fallen prey to intoxicating power positions, but what you fail to realize is that these postings are not against any Person, But against a doctrinal imbalance. An imbalance that is damaging to the soul. }A simple imbalance? You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth! First you claim that they have sinned, and give detailed descriptions ( see your post # 1 ). ( And they may have, I was not there with you to know ). Then you say matt 18 does not apply, since they have sinned but ( are not your brothers ??? ) or something, since you did not have the fortitude to declare and affirm why this verse did not apply. ( Which is interesting since at first you pretended you had already obeyed that verse, until I showed you hadn't , after which you claimed it was inapplicable. ) But now, after insinuating that Matt 18 is inapplicable ( therefore they are not your brothers? ), you call the problem a simple " inbalance " as if some small modificatioon is all that is needed! Which is it, man?! Be a man and step up: affirm! ( See multiple choice above ). I have to say yes these people have a right to chose. But I think you will agree with me that if one of your loved ones joined Islam and were marching forward in Jihad, you might want to say something. Speak only of what you know! I did have the fortitude to approach those who were my " loved ones " in HH and tell THEM, not the world, what I felt and believed! If you saw someone backing off a cliff that would plummet them to their death, would you stand there calmly and say, "Well that's thier right,... God speed!". I would preach the Gospel to them as to anyone, rather than whining about how abusive their " false doctrines " were and how very abusive and hurtful they were to me personally...! And trying to discredit them, and do all I could to cause them grief for their beliefs. I am American, and I would pick up arms to defend my nation's right to protect every religion that does not openly violate Felony and Criminal law! If I felt a religion causes the detriment of a man's eternal soul, I would preach to those I came into contact with, rather than rehash personal offences with them in public. If that is the way you feel, I hope you're not the one watching my back. Indeed, that is not I! Pro 15:3 The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good. I am simply trying to be a warning sign on the road of life and warn others of the dangers ahead. I hoped that at first, but if you were simply so sincerely caring for other's welfare, you would have latched onto Matt 18, and said, " AMEN, BROTHER REAL_TRUTH, I WILL GATHER A FEW MEN AND GO SEE THE BROTHERS FACE TO FACE FOR ONCE... " But your actions speak you to be dishonest. If you ran the gauntlet and came out unscathed, praise the Lord....., I know many who didn't. Speak only of what you know. | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) New member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Dear real truth my heart goes out to you! I know you want to uphold righteousness, but in calling these postings exposing HH. "A witch-hunt". You only expose your own naivete' of happenings at HH. You seem to think that any warnings against a group are unbiblical. I hate to think of what you would say against the words of Christ when he was here on earth. Read any version you want, Mt. 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Christ!" or, "There he is!" do not believe it. Mt. 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect - if that were possible. Mt. 24:25 See, I have told you ahead of time. Mt. 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. There are people here crying out, "DO NOT BELIEVE" We are like Evangelist in "Pilgrims Progress" trying to show our fellow pilgrims a pitfall that we ourselves fell into. But Jesus spoke to the multitudes, (anyone who would listen) in Matt. 23 exposing the Pharisees for what they were. But you my friend say that anyone CLAIMING to be the body of Christ should be left alone! There are children of God in HH as there were among the Pharisees,such as Nicodemus. Lk. 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Lk. 6:44 Each tree is recognised by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thorn-bushes, or grapes from briers. Let the testimony of bad fruit speak for itself. Once again I ask you to consider whom you are defending by your postings. I know you say at the beginnings of you posts that you are not for HH or against them, But then go on to defend them. Please, Just slow down and consider if you are possibly naive. As far as your wanting me answer your multiple-choice question. My feelings on the matter are already clear. I will not answer. (Message edited by truth hunter on April 19, 2005) (Message edited by truth hunter on April 20, 2005) | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.198 |
Dear real truth my heart goes out to you! I know you want to uphold righteousness, but in calling these postings exposing HH. "A witch-hunt". You only expose your own naivete' of happenings at HH. You have no idea. I spent 17 + years in HH, I do not think that constitutes naivete. And how long were you there? I am not trying to contest with you, but just trying to tell you, look, I know more than you think. You seem to think that any warnings against a group are unbiblical. Of course not. I simply am pointing out that you have not gone through the proper steps to deal with this thing Biblically. When I first brought it out, you defence was that you " already " approached them and now " am bringing it before the church ". When I clearly laid out your error in showing how you have not followed proper Biblical protocal, you resorted to claiming " it doesn't apply in this case." That was a double take, speaking words out both sides of your mouth, since at first you acknowledged that the scripture applied by stating that you were following the guidelines of the verse, and now " bringing it before the church ( which constitutes the secular world to you ). But when you were shown that you had skipped the step of broaching the subject before the Bishops and Elders of said church with witnesses, and that you were mistaking this public secular forum for " the church ", you suddenly vasilated and began to claim the scripture did not apply. You were a member of this church. Therefore you have a responsibility to those with whom you have cried, laughed, worshipped, and fellowshiped in " Jesus name " to warn them if you feel they are in sin, following the Biblical pattern set forth in Matt 18. Your words are telling since you said, and I quote, " warnings against a group "! Instead of going to them as set forth in Matt 18, you resort in cowerdice and maybe even in self-vindication to warn AGAINST THEM( against!? man, what about their souls?! if you are so right, aren't you worried for them?! ), instead of WARNING TO THEM, as the Bible would lay out in Matt 18. How could you turn so mean-spirited against those you once loved? Can you honestly say you have made very attempt to address them, or have you stayed safely in your corner?! I hate to think of what you would say against the words of Christ when he was here on earth. Read any version you want, Mt. 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, "Look, here is the Christ!" or, "There he is!" do not believe it. Mt. 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect - if that were possible. Mt. 24:25 See, I have told you ahead of time. Mt. 24:26 "So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. ...sigh... GET YOUR FINGERS OUT OF YOUR EARS, PLEASE, MY BROTHER? How many times must point out that I am not addressing doctrines here, since I have repeatedly ( now tiredly ) pointed out that I also strongly disagree with certain doctrines there, while I am simply addressing the form and pattern being followed here in how to deal with the issues you or I may have! I neither confirm nor deny the insinuation about whatever doctrine you are addressing above, since I feel it inappropriate to address said issues in a secular forum where Satan is the king( any public forum on the NET is subject to the scrutiny of this evil power, and his minions ). There are people here crying out, "DO NOT BELIEVE" We are like Evangelist in "Pilgrims Progress" trying to show our fellow pilgrims a pitfall that we ourselves fell into. AND THOSE YOU ONCE CALLED " BROTHERS " you mercilessly leave ( IF you are doctrinally correct ) to mire and waste away, instead of warning TO THEM, but rather AGAINST THEM. I am sorry, but this smacks of self-righteousness, and hypocrasy! But Jesus spoke to the multitudes, (anyone who would listen) in Matt. 23 exposing the Pharisees for what they were. Ahh.. I thank you for continuing to defend this doctrine of truth I am so desparately trying to get you to see , may God Almighty have mercy! So this is your contention, that Jesus openly rebuked the Pharisees for what they were? Let us carefully look at your claim, and its comparison to this situation. Jesus addresses the hypocrasy of the blind Pharisees ( false religious pastors ): Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, DONE IN A PREACHING SERVICE, ONLY IN THE HEARING OF THOSE WHO WERE LISTENING TO GOD'S WORD (IN THE CHURCH SERVICE). And look how one can find clear examples of Jesus more than once trying to reach out to them personally, in the presence of eachother, and His disciples. Here is one of many such examples: Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them Now, for about three years, the ministry of Jesus Christ went forth without the secular world becoming involved in the critisisms and sins against Jesus brought by the false Elders, the Pharisees ( I AM NOT calling HH elders false, since it is you, not them, that I am addressing , neither am I calling them Pharisees, neither admitting nor denying such, it isn't the point ! )Now what happened when these " Elders " or Pharisees brought these sins against Jesus into the secular forum? Did he address their sins in public? Did He even answer their charges? Mat 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: 2 And when they had bound him, they led [him] away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. So now they have taken their vicious mental and spiritual abuse of the man, our Lord, into the secular arena... Mat 27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing. And when the " mediator " or secular forum asks Him to respond, and He refuses to answer the sins of the Elders in this public forum... Mat 27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? Jesus refused! 14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly. Note that it was not that Jesus was not willing to address the elders on their " mixed up view of truth " as you so aptly put it, for just hours before, IN THE CHURCH TEMPLE FORUM, with only members present, He did answer these elders and address their false views... Matt 26:63 ... the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. ( FOR WHICH THEY CONDEMNED HIM, BECAUSE THEY DENIED THIS FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIAN TRUTH! )...Jesus addresses their false views... in the church forum! Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Amazing. You thought to trap me with elequent words regarding the Pharisees, when you said, and I quote, " But Jesus spoke to the multitudes, (anyone who would listen) in Matt. 23 exposing the Pharisees for what they were..." But the tables are turned my friend. I do not contest that WITHIN THE CHURCH there COULD BE a proper forum for addressing these whom YOU ( NOT I ) have called Pharisees. That is all Jesus did, he addressed them to their faces many times, with many witnesses, even eventually laying them out in front of the whole church ( all those crowds attending his preaching services and worshipping Him ). But because you brought them out to defend your actions taken in a totally public and secular forum, I am forced to point out that your defence is your undoing. For surely, the Pharisees were NEVER addressed in the forum you have chosen: THAT OF THE SECULAR WORLD... it was Judas who led to such a forum, and he, when realizing his error, and the gravity thereof, as Jesus was led away into that forum of seccular thought, himself hung he ( Judas ) from a tree, as he knew he was now cursed. Be careful, I smell Iscariot nearby. And I am serious, my friend, my brother, my aquaintence, my fellow man! Your Pharisees were never addressed by our Lord outside of the confines of church! But you have laid out those you once called fathers, elders, brothers, friends, in Jesus, before the entire secular world, millions of gossiping eyes on this world wide web, and have done so shamelessly , without even one true attempt to follow protocal according to Matthew 18. For shame, for shame, my friends! But you my friend say that anyone CLAIMING to be the body of Christ should be left alone! There are children of God in HH, but that doesn't mean that HH is the body of Christ OR part of it. Lk. 6:43 "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Lk. 6:44 Each tree is recognised by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thorn-bushes, or grapes from briers. Let the testimony of bad fruit speak for itself. Are you claiming there is no good fruit in HH? Oh man, if you knew what role they played in bringing me to Jesus, and the depth from which I was delivered of filth and debauchery... you evoke terrible tears from my eyes in this moment! How could you pretend that God has not used them? I am telling you, I strongly disagree with alot of what I see, but I am incredulous if you would pretend that you do not disagree with things in most churches, as I do! Once again I ask you to consider whom you are defending by your postings. I know you say at the beginnings of you posts that you are not for HH or against them, But then go on to defend them. I won't be quite as nice this time. I mean you no harm., but I wont have you dragging me through the mud of false accusations in this public forum. Show me one time that I defended any doctrine they teach! Show me once where I have contested any " Fact " you claim to be truth regarding them! NOT ONCE! ( First time was above, when I said that your pretence that no good fruit ever came from them was false. And that because you are fighting tooth and nail to disqualify them as brethren, to justify this public attack... in the face of Matt 18. )I have only consistantly stated that this public forum is improper. Your accusation above is false, and flagrently so. Please, Just slow down and consider if you are possibly naive. I repeat: 17 years? Naive? I think not. As far as your wanting me answer your multiple-choice question. My feelings on the matter are clear. I will not answer. You will not affirm them to be your brothers because then you would be forced to admit you are in disobedience to Matt 18. You wiull not affirm them as satan's children because you fear God's retribution. For someone so public and brazen, you are a little disappointing. Why not step up like a man and affirm?! Whose children are they? God's, or Satan's? Affirm, please, do not shrink back.Try not to blaspheme while you are at it. Please. In tears, a sorrowing ex-HH member} | ||
| truth_hunter (truth_hunter) New member Username: truth_hunter Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Real truth, you distort by telling others and myself what I have said and done. You clearly dissect everything to give it your own meaning. By mocking, confronting my manhood, and contesting my relationship with God, you think you prove your point. Please note: You are the only ex-member who has written here that has not seen or understood the purpose of this form. I have attempted to indulge your views of Matt 18, simply because I thought perhaps we could have a true debate. But you read my postings only in the view of your presupposed ideas of what and who I am, and how I might have challenged your view and interpretation of scripture. My friend I am not here to fight with you. You are taking everything personal. I will refrain from answering any more of your posts until you can treat me as a Christian, and an adult. | ||
| dowen (dowen) New member Username: dowen Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.154.52.132 |
I have watched, and participated in, this message board with fascination and occasional frustration over the past few days and I have a question to pose to whomever cares to answer it for me. The majority of people posting messages here have made some pretty serious accusations against Homestead. I respect their right to do so and I am not trying to "defend" Homestead, I am just very curious as to the ultimate goal they are trying to attain. I ask out of humility, and perhaps once again naivete' but to the casual passer-by it would seem that many here want nothing other than to see Homestead brought to it's knees and destroyed. I will be honest, I would like to see changes at Homestead, and I think that is the goal of some people here. But I have to agree with real_truth insomuch as the internet should not be the place of choice to confront Homestead. | ||
| urka (urka) New member Username: urka Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.176.48.179 |
dowen, i am glad to see that you have come out of HH without anger toward anyone. my feelings toward the people there are love and i too would like to see them change, but not destroyed. so many who leave (and i'm not saying people here, but i've known some, including my little brother) still hold some anger and resentment towards people who've harmed or hurt them. i'd like to see some more positive stuff on this board. what have you all learned since leaving HH? how has God brought you through the tuff time of discerning what was wrong and right? i do think we should talk about things that happened there. it's a part of healing. it's a way to warn others who may be considering joining HH or a similar group, but i don't think we should bash anyone personally! we too were once blind and deceived. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
AMEN, DOWEN! God bless you, everyone. I have said my piece.} | ||
| dowen (dowen) New member Username: dowen Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.154.52.132 |
Urka, I would like to not broadcast my personal story any more than I already have, but if you want to correspond in private my e-mail address is, dowen21@msn.com | ||
| milli (milli) New member Username: milli Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Dowen, your statement of, I have to agree with real_truth insomuch as the Internet should not be the place of choice to confront Homestead. From what I've read, the notion of destroying HH and confronting them via Internet was an idea from real truth. The opening article stated that these testimonies were a counter to the article in Christianity today magazine. | ||
| dowen (dowen) New member Username: dowen Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.154.52.132 |
Huh???? I think you have the wrong truth. (Sorry for the bad joke) | ||
| hispromise (hispromise) New member Username: hispromise Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
Not an ex/or member of HH, but I have been following this message board. Question? Can someone tell me who directly said that they "wanted HH on their knees and destroyed" I have read all posts and thought maybe I had missed one somewhere.???? | ||
| dowen (dowen) New member Username: dowen Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.154.52.132 |
Hispromise, No one has directly come out and said that they wanted to destroy or bring Homestead to it's knees. Maybe I have read far to much between the lines but that is the impression that I have gotten, and why I posed my question. I am only trying to figure out the purpose of this string and why the majority of people here seem so bent on exposing Homestead. If they don't want to bring down Homestead, then what is their goal? | ||
| knowone (knowone) New member Username: knowone Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
It seems that some here are like children before a human father, one saying he did this and another saying they did this and everyone is excited to have their side heard. Do we really believe that the “Father God” is all knowing, always present, sees all knows all? Does He know what’s going on in H.H.? Does He know what’s going on in our hearts? Most people, adults, the children are another story, who become involved with groups like H.H. do so because of their spiritual pride and the God who sees all, knows all and loves all can deal with His children anywhere their hearts will let Him. I also know there are those that are brought along with those in spiritual pride that lack the discernment, strength of character, or are emotionally unstable, and these are the horrific stories. The old covenant says “what does the Lord require of you but to do justly to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” The new says the fruit of Gods Spirit within us is, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Those who love God are those who obey Him. When we use other standards in our living here on this earth we will find there is a heavenly Father we will give an account to, whether here or later. So the best way is to walk in His Spirit and not get our flesh worked up. Galatians 6:15 what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
IT IS CLEAR THAT THERE IS AN AGENDA. Some of you, I am guessing , know full well that this is part of a consorted and organized effort in this time to attack HH, in more ways than one. I continue to maintain, despite the attempts of some to discredit my view, that this is simply wrong. this should be kept in the privacy of church, and God's people. I do not need to recount the stories that are being told here. Some act incredulous that I use the word " cult ", while this discussion was founded in a cult watch group. As if there was a reason to be surprised that I assume that some of you are painting HH as a cult. Someone said it was I who brought this up. Ridiculous. It was those of you who supported the public dissection of a church in a CULT WATCH FORUM. Similarly, some blindly deny that there is obvious agenda at work here to destroy HH, while those with honest eyes and ears clearly see what is truly going on here by the hands of many, though perhaps not by all. I need not recount the posts to prove it. God bless. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
BTW, truth_hunter, I can see by your post to me that you are not ABLE to refute the truth I have spoken. Your answer is typical of someone who thought they were ready to divide and " debate " ( as you called it, not me ) the Word of God, and were soundly silenced. I pray God in His mercy helps you to acknowledge it. (Message edited by real_truth on April 20, 2005) | ||
| recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee) New member Username: recovering_pharisee Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.12.116.9 |
real truth- You object to bringing this to a "secular" forum.You assume we are christians? It is my understanding that HH does not recognize those who leave to be christians.Please correct me if I am wrong.This is what I was told and others who left.So, how is it that HH would be willing to listen to those who are unbelievers? We could not take it before the Church because we are not a part of the church(HH). I agree with you that we should all move on with our lives. For some this discussion is probably a very important part of that process. Lastly,I agree with urka that we need positive stuff on this board.Hopefully the kind of stuff that will point us to Jesus and not distract us He is the Real Truth after all! | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Amen that Jesus is the real truth! As to my assumption that you are Christians: if you are not and affirm so, then I should not try to hold you to the standards of the Bible. But if you claim or believe yourself to be a Christian, then you are bound by the Bible. It is clear to me that you agree with me that Matthew 18 should have been obeyed, or you would not have said that you " could not take it before the church ". In other words, it is clear to me that you recognize the legitamacy of my argument, and simply feel it is impossible in this case. So if that were true, would that excuse going about it in some newly invented fashion? There is simply no scripture to support this public defamation of those who are TRYING to preach Jesus as they understand Him. Those who attemptto justify their actions here by claiming that OBEDIENCE to God's Word was impossible may not be Christians, and maybe I am assuming way too much! I already clearly showed how even Jesus refused to address the Elders and Pharisees in a public forum, and how much smaller are we than He?! However, you say it is impossible to bring it before the church. But have you even taken the second step, and taken a few witnesses, and with a clear head, confronted those you MAY claim have sinned and rebuked them in that manner? Then did you actually attempt to bring it before the church, or did you just leave? Let me guess what you will do now. I could be wrong, but my guess of prediction is that you will eventually vasilate, after I get through proving that you did not obey Matt 18 ( an assumption, only if I make it, I haven't yet ), and then you will probably begin to claim that Matt 18 doesn't apply.  That was the route that truth_hunter took when he first claimed that he made all possible attempts, and was now " bringing it before the church " ( which to him was this secular arena, my my ) and then vasilated when I proved he was disobeying Matt 18 to say that it was inapplicable. What shall be your justification? | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
real_truth in blue Well, truth_hunter, when will you refute or affirm my answer to you? Supposedly a truth_hunter in black But Jesus spoke to the multitudes, (anyone who would listen) in Matt. 23 exposing the Pharisees for what they were. Ahh.. I thank you for continuing to defend this doctrine of truth I am so desparately trying to get you to see , may God Almighty have mercy! So this is your contention, that Jesus openly rebuked the Pharisees for what they were? Let us carefully look at your claim, and its comparison to this situation. Jesus addresses the hypocrasy of the blind Pharisees ( false religious pastors ): Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, DONE IN A PREACHING SERVICE, ONLY IN THE HEARING OF THOSE WHO WERE LISTENING TO GOD'S WORD (IN THE CHURCH SERVICE). And look how one can find clear examples of Jesus more than once trying to reach out to them personally, in the presence of eachother, and His disciples. Here is one of many such examples: Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them Now, for about three years, the ministry of Jesus Christ went forth without the secular world becoming involved in the critisisms and sins against Jesus brought by the false Elders, the Pharisees ( I AM NOT calling HH elders false, since it is you, not them, that I am addressing , neither am I calling them Pharisees, neither admitting nor denying such, it isn't the point ! )Now what happened when these " Elders " or Pharisees brought these sins against Jesus into the secular forum? Did he address their sins in public? Did He even answer their charges? Mat 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: 2 And when they had bound him, they led [him] away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. So now they have taken their vicious mental and spiritual abuse of the man, our Lord, into the secular arena... Mat 27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing. And when the " mediator " or secular forum asks Him to respond, and He refuses to answer the sins of the Elders in this public forum... Mat 27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? Jesus refused! 14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly. Note that it was not that Jesus was not willing to address the elders on their " mixed up view of truth " as you so aptly put it, for just hours before, IN THE CHURCH TEMPLE FORUM, with only members present, He did answer these elders and address their false views... Matt 26:63 ... the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. ( FOR WHICH THEY CONDEMNED HIM, BECAUSE THEY DENIED THIS FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIAN TRUTH! )...Jesus addresses their false views... in the church forum! Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Amazing. You thought to trap me with elequent words regarding the Pharisees, when you said, and I quote, " But Jesus spoke to the multitudes, (anyone who would listen) in Matt. 23 exposing the Pharisees for what they were..." But the tables are turned my friend. I do not contest that WITHIN THE CHURCH there COULD BE a proper forum for addressing these whom YOU ( NOT I ) have called Pharisees. That is all Jesus did, he addressed them to their faces many times, with many witnesses, even eventually laying them out in front of the whole church ( all those crowds attending his preaching services and worshipping Him ). But because you brought them out to defend your actions taken in a totally public and secular forum, I am forced to point out that your defence is your undoing. For surely, the Pharisees were NEVER addressed in the forum you have chosen: THAT OF THE SECULAR WORLD... it was Judas who led to such a forum, and he, when realizing his error, and the gravity thereof, as Jesus was led away into that forum of seccular thought, himself hung he ( Judas ) from a tree, as he knew he was now cursed. Be careful, I smell Iscariot nearby. And I am serious, my friend, my brother, my aquaintence, my fellow man! Your Pharisees were never addressed by our Lord outside of the confines of church! But you have laid out those you once called fathers, elders, brothers, friends, in Jesus, before the entire secular world, millions of gossiping eyes on this world wide web, and have done so shamelessly , without even one true attempt to follow protocal according to Matthew 18. For shame, for shame, my friends! CONVENIENTLY, TRUTH HUNTER HAS NOW DISFELLOWSHIPPED ME. }Please note: You are the only ex-member who has written here that has not seen or understood the purpose of this form. I have attempted to indulge your views of Matt 18, simply because I thought perhaps we could have a true debate...I will refrain from answering any more of your posts until you can treat me as a Christian, and an adult.}}}} | ||
| the_general (the_general) New member Username: the_general Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.102.179 |
Real_Truth seems to believe, as HH teaches that the leadership truly is Jesus Christ come in the flesh, if he feels that Truth_Hunter is the Iscariot and is betraying them to the world. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) New member Username: real_truth Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
Not even worthy of response. Do not deceive others and put words in my mouth. | ||
| hispromise (hispromise) New member Username: hispromise Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
dowen, (sorry late on responding to your post) I don't want to guess at all what others are thinking here, but my impression has been actually the opposite. I am very surprised to see these posts written with such reserve, I think if someone had wronged me or hurt me I might respond with outrage. I really don't see the "witch hunt" mentality in this post. I have definitely found plenty of that on other talk boards related to "religious" matters. I also did not think that anyone in particular was trying to expose this HH, but did see a desire to have an opinion about the situation and obviously, from reading postings their voices could not be heard any other way, as many "consistently" have said that they went to these people and they would not hear them. Not knowing all the details I would say that a posting board of peoples experiences and opinions should not "bring down" anyone or place physically. It is o.k. to disagree with someone isn't??? Especially, if HH did do these things to these individuals. Again, saying "they want to bring down homestead" I am just not seeing that on this forum, and I do not think anyone so far as I have read has that "goal" in mind. It seems most of these people are just speaking their experiences and disagreements with HH. Maybe this is a way that someone will hear them???? If destruction comes to this place it will be of their own doing, not from a few people on a posting board. I think we all can share our life experiences without expecting there to be a particular purpose in doing so or a end result. I personally have given my testimony about my life and people who have wronged me without expecting anything or having a purpose except for sharing my experiences. Just a thought.... | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Junior Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Just so you know, those attached to this Forum, to my understanding, may be deeply involved in a Public war being waged in the real world against HH. Unless I am mistaken. To boot, why not deal with the doctrines, instead of telling tales? Please read my Post in the new Matt 18 thread ( second post ) regarding talebearing. | ||
| hispromise (hispromise) New member Username: hispromise Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
What is the doctrine of HH?? Since you were a member for 17 years you could explain their doctrine?? Maybe that will shed light on what the disagreements and grievances are all about. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Junior Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
No sir, any contentions I have with " false doctrines" will be kept in the body, not dealt with in some public forum that has dragged a church organization's name through the mud, wherein I found Jesus. Those who bear tales and gossip about happenings in the secular public eye, naming this church, cannot pretend they are simply trying to address a doctrine. it is TALEBEARING! (Message edited by real_truth on April 21, 2005) | ||
| rbeechner (rbeechner) New member Username: rbeechner Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 65.150.77.81 |
As I meditate on the overbearing tone of some of the posts in this thread, I become increasingly convinced of one thing: you can take the member out of Homestead Heritage, but getting Homestead Heritage out of the member, well, that's another matter. The messiness does illustrate an interesting point, though, and that is that the spirit of control can pop up anywhere, at anytime. No one person or group has a corner on the market; we all struggle against it--being fallen creatures-- both in ourselves and in our dealings with others, and we all stand in need of God's forgiveness and grace. Homestead Heritage is no different in that respect. Their uniqueness (unique at least in my experience of spiritual groups) lies in the way they formalize control-- through manipulation, fear tactics, and false teachings on spiritual authority-- into a system which holds the body of Christ in bondage to the precepts and caprices of men. The fear of man--fear of the reproaches and reviling of those in authority--brings a snare to brothers and sisters for whom Christ died, robbing them of the security that comes from trusting in God alone. I certainly don't desire anyone's destruction. We all stand in need of the same thing: that the light of the gospel of Christ would shine into the dark crevices of our hearts and free us into the glorious liberty of the children of God. This is my daily prayer for myself and for us all. Thank you for your comments to dowen, hispromise. They were very well put, and I hope you will continue to post in this thread. | ||
| rbeechner (rbeechner) New member Username: rbeechner Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 65.150.77.81 |
And a hats off to Milli, who started this thread, for the quiet way her (?) gentle spirit instructs us all. | ||
| dowen (dowen) New member Username: dowen Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.154.52.132 |
Hispromise, you said "I am suprised to see these posts written with such reserve, I think if someone had wronged me or hurt me I might respond in outrage", that is a very valid point and worth considering. There are several angles to look at this from and I would like to humbly offer mine. First, the lack of "outrage", in my mind, is quite damning. If ex-members feelings have been hurt to the extent some of them claim, then you're right, where's the outrage. I will not try to deny hurt feelings and pain but in my case the hurt feelings and pain I had were products of MY doing, not Homesteads. You also said "I think we can all share our life experiences without expecting there to be a particular purpose in doing so or an end result." You may be very right but one thing I have learned in my life is whenever I don't have a vision or goal to work towards, I usually don't accomplish anything. When I read the verses that talk about whatever your hand finds to do, doing it with all your heart, I take that literally. And I find it hard to do something with all of my heart if I don't know what I am doing, or the reason I am doing it. Thanks for your reply though. Rbeechner, you are very right in saying "You can take the member out of HH, but getting HH out of the member, well, that's another matter." I take it you think that I, and others, still have some of Homestead in us. If that is the case then you have paid me a great compliment. I fight desperatly to retain many of the things that Homestead taught me (not just carpentry skills and a good work ethic either). I agree wholeheartedly that we all need the light of the gospel of Christ to continually shine into the dark crevices of our hearts. The Lord works in mysterious ways and maybe he can use this message board to shine some of his Light into all of our hearts. | ||
| milli (milli) New member Username: milli Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
Dowen , There were feeling of outrage, and they still crop up from time to time. I don't quote this next scripture because I feel that HH is mine enemy, but just to show the kind of Love the Lord is teaching me to have for those that wrong us. Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Love my friend is why there is no outrage, forgiveness is what Christ gave us and commanded to imitate! Based on some postings here, seems were damned if we do or damned if we don't. The wonderful thing is that we don't have to worry about the damning of men. We have become new creations! Love, peace, joy! I'm not judging the external things in HH , but the matters of the heart and soul. No one here is downing any moral values you learned in HH. I hope with all my heart you hold on to those things.  | ||
| the_general (the_general) New member Username: the_general Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.5.83 |
Thank you milli,well said.I think that the defenders of homestead are having a problem seeing that at least for some, the issue is not exposing individuals for wrongdoings or sins but an effort to bring light and truth concerning the basic and foundational problems in the teachings of homestead that so many of us feel are harmful and against sound Biblical truths. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Junior Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Dowen, what a wonderful post. It was a breath of fresh air. I also am blessed to have learned many things in HH, and to have found Jesus there. There are some things I would never let go. They are way too valuable. the fact that I may disagree with some things in no way devalues the wonderful things I am thankful were inparted to me. I will confess my feelings were hurt, and I think it was beyond my control. But my best friend hurts my feelings sometimes too. He is still my friend. Whatever issues I may or may not have will remain between my friends and I, because they are valuable to me, and I am also worried for their feelings, not just mine. May you find the grace to walk strong, and to find what you are looking for. Dear Genereal, I am not a HH defender. I stand for my own beliefs. I simply disagree with this forum as a public sounding board in the secular arena. Has nothing to do with what I feel or dont feel about HH.} | ||
| recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee) New member Username: recovering_pharisee Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
His promise is not an ex member of Homestead Heritage and has asked what the doctrine is. Is there anyone out there that can respond to this? My personal feeling (real truth notwithstanding) is that since the name of this thread is Homestead members please read}that they should have a shot at laying out what their doctrine is. I feel pretty sure some of them are reading this .Although officially it is not (or at least I was told while I there)a "pattern" to use the internet.Certainly the leadership has access. I welcome their input it is not just for ex members. Jesus did not do things in secret or try to package His words in such a way as to not offend or even be misunderstood.He told a group of disciples that they were to eat His flesh and drink His blood and many turned away from Him. If Heritage is indeed walking in a greater light and has the truth then they should be willing to shine that light and not hide it under a bushel. The Truth will stand up under scrutiny. The Truth is eternal and there is nothing that we as mere mortals can do against the truth. We can accept or reject Him that is all. | ||
| hispromise (hispromise) New member Username: hispromise Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
recovering-pharisee, I cannot understand how doctrine cannot be discussed, as real-truth states, on a public board. I have had many people ask us our assemblies beliefs and doctrine (in public and not in a assembly service) and I am open to share with anyone those things, even if they disagree. But the thing is I tell them. I am not a secret keeper or ashamed of what we believe and they have every right to disagree with me. Do we not give an account for what we believe??? I hope HH or any one else proclaiming Christianity, really does not think they are walking in a Greater Light, what is Greater than Christ Himself. All has already been revealed in the pages of the Holy Bible. Unless they really do think they are Christ in the flesh???? Just trying to understand their doctrine. Correct me if I am wrong, is not the apostles doctrine and the whole bible made public, preached to all the world??? Thanks for your response  | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Junior Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
I think you misunderstand, by what youve said. I mean, do you really think most churches actually follow alot of the Bible? Just because its there doesnt mean we understand it. I disagree with many things many churches teach, including HH, and even some churches I fellowship in, but I know we should all strive to come to fulness of understanding. And I have no problem with discussion of doctrines. It is the open slander of the church by name, and talebearing ( public storytelling ) that troubles me. I already made that clear, so please stop putting words in my mouth. You want to discuss doctrine? Please do, but if I see talebearing, I cannot help to express that it troubles me, since he that is faithful concealeth the matter, while a talebearer revealeth secrets. Why isn't anyone hardly listening? I have no problem with doctrinal discussion.} Lev 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down [as] a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I [am] the LORD. Pro 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter. Pro 18:8 The words of a talebearer [are] as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. Pro 20:19 He that goeth about [as] a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips. Pro 26:20 Where no wood is, [there] the fire goeth out: so where [there is] no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. (Message edited by real_truth on April 22, 2005) | ||
| recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee) New member Username: recovering_pharisee Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
hispromise, Yes they do believe they are walking in a greater light. Not greater than Christ Himself but actually as Christ Himself coming in human flesh. 1 John-4:1-3 is the basis for this and has been interpreted by most christians as being a response to Gnostic heresy.That in fact Jesus did come as a man in flesh and blood not just a spirit. They(HH) say it means that Jesus is continuing to come in our human nature.(Those in authority in the church.) Furthermore,if you do not submit to that authority you are of the spirit of antichrist. | ||
| hispromise (hispromise) New member Username: hispromise Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
Please forgive me, I had no intentions of putting words in your mouth, I was remembering what you said earlier "No sir, any contentions I have with " false doctrines" will be kept in the body, not dealt with in some public forum" I was just saying wether someone believes mine or your assemblies doctrines is true or false is irrelevant, they can disagree, they can believe. But in order to make a decision about doctrine should we not be informed, given literature, told, etc. so we can form some kind of decision??? Again, very sorry, did not in anyway want to put words in your mouth. Also, yes our small assembly prays daily that our hearts would be teachable to his word, and many times a hard word, we are not perfect but we desire with all our heart to follow and obey and come to that "fullness" as you said. We may not understand it all and I don't think we will understand everything but God is good to show us if we are willing to obey. | ||
| the_general (the_general) New member Username: the_general Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.102.179 |
Recovering_pharisee has hit the nail on the head.This doctrinal error facilitates the ability to control almost every area of the members life because to disagree with any teaching or to refuse to do anything that the leadership wants the members to do is = to coming against Jesus Himself. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Junior Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 49 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
I truly will keep my doctrinal issues with HH private, since I value them as friends. However, I repeat that I have no problem with you or others going ahead and discussing doctrines... it is talebearing and accusations and name smearing that I find troubling.} | ||
| rbeechner (rbeechner) New member Username: rbeechner Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 65.143.102.88 |
Very good point, general, and true. I remember meetings in which leaders stood on the platform and insisted, "WE are from God, and whoever knows God listens to US." Period. No room for debate: either confess that Christ continues to come in human flesh through the words and commands of US, the leadership of this body, or acknowledge, according to 2 John 1:7, that you are the spirit of antichrist. | ||
| hispromise (hispromise) New member Username: hispromise Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
Real-truth What does your friendship have to do with their doctrine. Would they not be your friend anymore if you explained a doctrine you lived by for 17 years?? Why so secret??? I am not asking you to tell me your "doctrinal issues" with them I am just asking what is their doctrine???? I would think explaining the apostle's doctrine/gospel would not be talebearing.....Let's start at this doctrine of being "Christ in the Flesh" How can anyone believe they are the Christ on this earth now and that God only speaks through them, please show scripture that would lead anyone to believe this??? Apparently, people use scripture to make people believe this, what are those scriptures??? If you truly believe that talking about doctrinal issues from HH or any other church including your own is "talebearing" than I will honor your request not to speak on them and refrain from asking you anymore about it. Thanks | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.200.116.203 |
I would be glad to discuss doctrines, in another arena, without having names, and accusations mixed in. Know what I mean? And don't assume you are getting the real skope of a doctrine from ex-members who are obviously very hurt feelings, and thus, biased. Remember that the Bible says that a man seems to present a just cause, until his neighbor comes and examines him. If it were me, I would open up discussions in some non-accusatory place to generally discuss doctrines, without mixing in names and accusations on a personal level as I am seeing here. | ||
| bekah (bekah) New member Username: bekah Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
RE: DANIEL EARLIER SAYING THAT HE FIGHTS DESPERATELY TO RETAIN WHAT HE GAINED IN HH. whenever i tell people about my experiences as a member there, i always add that i would not trade those experiences for anything. i don't believe i could ever have had the grasp of grace that i have now if i had not known what it was like to live without it for so long. i am incredibly thankful that God allowed me and my family to be in HH for many reasons. but now, 'forgetting what is behind,' i don't strive to retain what i gained there (i'm having trouble at the moment thinking of specific positives that i could list); instead i strive to know Jesus more. the more i know Him, the more i long to know Him. He is truly, truly more than enough for me. i don't have the energy or ability to try to meet anyone's standard anymore. instead, i daily throw myself at the feet of Jesus and am daily amazed by the way He picks me up, holds me close, and calls me daughter. | ||
| seekeroftruth (seekeroftruth) New member Username: seekeroftruth Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.149.159.6 |
Ok real truth what arena would you like to discuss this in.. I mean no harm and I am not being sarcastic... | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 79 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
If someone was to leave this SECULAR arena, found a group meant ONLY TO discuss doctrines, and there was absolutely NO personal accusations or name slandering ( ANY NAMES PERIOD OF PEOPLE OR GROUPS ) I would be happy to discuss any doctrine you like, as I enjoy Bible study and discussion and even debate. I could provide such a forum if you like, or someone else could. Then folks could post up what they see " some people " teaching and we could discuss it. But see, if it had any connection whatesoever to this slandering and accusation hurling, I wouldn't be interested. Even if it were advertised here. If you are interested, Ill post my personal email, and you could send me an invite to such a place. But if it were full of these same slandering words, I would just skip it. | ||
| seekeroftruth (seekeroftruth) New member Username: seekeroftruth Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.149.159.6 |
That is fine....I am game... | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
I will create a forum, and will allow you to choose a manager who can manage it with me, we will choose agreeable rules, which will include a ban on any specific names or accusations being included, and it will not be advertised here, but will be shared via email. The fact that you will also choose a manager should make it fairly neutral, no? Is this agreeable? I would like to discuss your doctrinal issues, just not here like this. Maybe all of us could find a more agreeable place there to discuss these specifics without making it personal. I hope. Is this a good plan? } | ||
| milli (milli) New member Username: milli Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.55.228.216 |
real truth, you keep saying that we shouldn't use names, I have been following these postings from the get-go and I don't recall any names being droped.Could you show me where this was done? Thanks | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
I do mean the name of this church. I dont see the need to mention HH to discuss doctrinal questions, and I dont want to be a part of any discussion on doctrine that attaches their name, especially when charges and accusations of mind-control and abuse and such things are flying. It is fruitless.} | ||
| the_general (the_general) New member Username: the_general Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.102.179 |
If anyone would like to discuss doctrine with real_truth I think a private forum would be great.The purpose of THIS forum is to bring light and truth about HH into the open. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 82 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
I disagree. I believe the purpose of this forum is simply to defame this group, and I think it is both unscientific and deceptive that in the midst of all this slander, many do not have the honesty to speak of the blessings they received while there. } | ||
| the_general (the_general) New member Username: the_general Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.155.102.179 |
I think you've said that many creative ways already | ||
| waawaa (waawaa) New member Username: waawaa Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.112.0.204 |
hey looks like everybodys just a chilling. me just chilling having lots a fun. what up j | ||
| seekeroftruth (seekeroftruth) New member Username: seekeroftruth Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.162.151.91 |
Ok real truth I will speak with regarding anything,but you must be willing to answer my questions, regarding the bible | ||
| waawaa (waawaa) New member Username: waawaa Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.112.0.204 |
hey jeremy whats up  | ||
| boughtpaidfor (boughtpaidfor) New member Username: boughtpaidfor Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 64.146.89.99 |
Message is from TruthBuyer, he was unable to post via his computer. Please address any response to TruthBuyer. realtruth, you cannot have it both ways. If you are so high on truth, why the aversion against exposing that which is not truth, especially when that exposure amounts to protection and guidance for certain ones. According to your methodology, God Himself is guilty of slander and talebearing because He has pointed out in His official Book what certain people have done, both good and bad. Why? For our Good! For our protection! For our learning! For our edification! Your so called pious sounding resort to the Scripture w/o meaningfully answering these people is nothing more than hypocrisy. Your own teachings can't stand the test of Truth's Light. It is completely inconsistent. And your yammering about the unholy secular forum, which you are currently using, is in the same vein. Your idea of non public is to use the forum of your choice (the more personal control, the better), nothing more than another public forum which is referred to as private. Semantics cannot void the reality of the secular nature of your proposed private forum. Your supposed piety in this issue is nothing more than a ruse of hypocritical proportions with designs to supposedly head off this allegedly slanderous operation against HH. The proper exposure of false doctrine and its proponents is nothing more than following the mandates of a Holy God, who does the same. It cannot but follow that, in the exaltation of truth, that the lies are automatically exposed. And so are their proponents and adherents. Your modus operandi within these threads is nothing more than the same methodology of control used by HH and others of like oppression. Your mental oppression of these people by your glib writing skills, along with your more glib use of Scripture to make illusory points of pious principle has been seen by me in many others of your kind. It matters not whether your are my brother in Christ or not. I will protect those under my care from people like you as long as I am alive. I have had to in the past and I will continue to do so. Even now, your actions are the actions of bondage and slavery, the same bondage and slavery experienced by me in many groups. You wouldn't know liberty if it knocked you down! Christ is nowhere near your meanderings, motives notwithstanding! | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Nothing you said above has any clarity at all. It is apparent that you intend to dodge all the Biblical points I have made, and resort to name calling. If there was something of substance in what you said, instead of a simple personal attack, I would attempt to answer you. But this is nothing more than an attempt to further refine tactics of that which I have spoken from the bginning: Your little cult is trying to silence me, and demonize me, since my opinion differs from yours. First it was reasoning with me, asking me please please, now it is attacking me. I have no need to answer you with the same vicious and abusive tactics! Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Now you sanctimoniously join the throng that attacks HH for " abuse", but one looks above and wonders at your new religion. God help you. (Message edited by real_truth on April 26, 2005) | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.227.140.26 |
Responce to rbeechner post #6 I just read this post and have to say that as far as being defined by HH ("you can take the member out of HH but can't take HH out of the member")well I think we are all shaped and defined to an extent by those things we come in contact with. Some, like rbeechner and others can't seem to move on because thay are still defined solely by their hatred for the church and its leadership, and all they seem to be able to do is spout hateful and venomous little catch phrases. Others (real truth for instance)at least seem to recognize all the good ways they affected us and the wonderful people (many of them if I may say so) who are there and continue to pray for us daily. Unlike many of you, at least HH hasn't formed some character smear site on the web to deface and smear us, who have left that's more than I can say for many of you. As far as your observation on control, first of all it doesn't seem like they control anyone, you can leave at any time you like, as I think all of us prove. Being that we all left and live our own lives, on the contrary it seems that many of you wish to have more control over others. Is that not what you are trying to do, control who and what HH is, what they believe, who becomes or remains a member of their church. Most of the postings on this site stink of hypocrisy. I will close by saying "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone}" YOU'RE A REPROACH TO THE NAME OF CHRIST!!! (Message edited by coin on May 02, 2005) | ||
| tikvah (tikvah) New member Username: tikvah Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
I have decided to quit posting to this forum for the simple reason that it seems to have degenerated to a back-and-forth argument. I had true hopes of expressing truth and sharing comfort among those of us who have left HH but with so many unknowns, and the possibility that HH leaders may be monitoring this sight, I can't in good conscience continue. Grace and truth to you all--my prayers are with those of you who seem to oppose us. Love in Christ, Tikvah | ||
| tikvah (tikvah) New member Username: tikvah Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
I have decided to quit posting to this forum for the simple reason that it seems to have degenerated to a back-and-forth argument. I had true hopes of expressing truth and sharing comfort among those of us who have left HH but with so many unknowns, and the possibility that HH leaders may be monitoring this site, I can't in good conscience continue. Grace and truth to you all--my prayers are with those of you who seem to oppose us. Love in Christ, Tikvah | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Intermediate Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 218 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
It was claimed at first that the desire and design here was to reach those on the " inside " who are " deceived ". But now it seems, if those " poor deceived people " are monitering the site, suddenly you don't want to post? I thought that was the point! Apparently, God is exposing the real_truth, that all of this is nothing but an agenda to slander & destroy a church in the Free States of America. Now, we are seeing the REAL_TRUTH! Thank you Jesus! (Message edited by real_truth on May 03, 2005) | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.227.140.26 |
Thank you real-truth, that was a thought that occurred to me also. It seems that some of these people only want to slander HH is if they can do so behind the back of those they slander. What cowardice. Thanks again for attempting to be an unbiased voice in this predominantly slanderous forum. (Message edited by coin on May 03, 2005) | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Intermediate Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 223 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
I also appreciate your willingness to stand against this hysterical vendetta, Coin, and even though some may be offended by it, and I wish them no harm, I believe you spoke the truth! I agree, it seems they were not expecting the results this forum has brought, and I think they are troubled by their inability to dominate it with negativity towards HH, even trying to intimidate some of us into silence. I for one, will not be silenced! I pray for these caught up in such flagrent bitterness, and I am so thankful you have voiced your feelings also! | ||
| truthbuyer (truthbuyer) Member Username: truthbuyer Post Number: 79 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.82.193.184 |
I'll agree with you on one point. The real truth is being seen by anyone perusing this forum. It doesn't take much to realize what is actually occurring. The TRUTH isn't determined by this forum, any posters on this forum, any readers of this forum, Leaders of HH, members of HH, ex-members of HH or non ex-members of HH. Shrill voices do not determine TRUTH. Committment and motivation does not determine TRUTH. Accusations do not determine TRUTH. Defending against accusations does not determine TRUTH. High brow condescension does not determine TRUTH. Humility, false or otherwise, does not determine TRUTH. TRUTH has and always will stand on His own. TRUTH will always reveal Himself to those who seek Him with their whole heart. TRUTH always hides Himself from those who continue to look elsewhere. This forum is about TRUTH, and TRUTH alone. No amount of rhetoric will hide it. The largest plot against TRUTH will but meekly fail. So march on everyone. Raise whatever banner you desire. Lift your weapon of choice. Engage those you perceive to be the enemy. When the smoke clears, TRUTH will be the victor. Only those who have recognized Him from before the beginning will stand with Him. For TRUTH alone rules this forum. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Intermediate Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 224 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Thats sad that you think truth rules this secular forum. Who is your god?} | ||
| truthbuyer (truthbuyer) Member Username: truthbuyer Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.82.193.184 |
My God is the same God who ordained the powers that be who formed this "secular forum." Romans 13 This God has ordained Deacons who serve his purposes well. | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.227.140.26 |
To truth buyer (Jer.17:9) The heart is deceitul above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Your heart is blinded by your hatred, and now you feel you must try to blind others to the truth through slander. (Pr 26:28) A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin. Through your hatred you have attempted ruin, but I pray that you will see the error of your ways before you cross a line that even you will regret. (Message edited by coin on May 03, 2005) | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Intermediate Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 226 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Yes Lord Jesus, this man is very bitter, please touch him with mercy, as Coin is desiring also for him. Amen. Thank you coin. | ||
| truthbuyer (truthbuyer) Member Username: truthbuyer Post Number: 83 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 216.82.193.184 |
realtruth and coin, Is your God they same God that ordained the powers that be, the same God that ordained deacons for our good and deliver wrath to evildoears? Romans 13:4 Or it your God some other God? Pray Tell! | ||
| coin (coin) New member Username: coin Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 63.227.140.26 |
Another attack, but I guess that now you'll attack me also since I refuse to participate in your slander-smear campaign. I don't shake off that easy. As to who my God is I think you can answer that for yourself. | ||
| real_truth (real_truth) Intermediate Member Username: real_truth Post Number: 232 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 167.127.163.203 |
Amen, well put. | ||
| curious1 (curious1) New member Username: curious1 Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.185.109.254 |
quote: "the leaders of the group go to great lengths to suppress criticism" Acts 17:11b, "...they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." There is a big difference between seeking the Truth in God's Word to correct problems and issues in our lives; it is a totally different thing to suppress (hide, sweep under the carpet) and pretend that any wrongdoing does not exist. | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
bump | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1176 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.91.19 |
Matt 9:12-13 12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." NIV Have you ever imagined how beautiful HH would be if they leaned mercy??????????????? I saw no mercy at HH... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 704 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
I was extended Mercy on quite a few occasions at HH, I guess I was the only one out of a thousand... BTW, I really don't know if Mercy is something that can be leaned. I am trying to remember if I have ever seen Mercy leaning up in a corner somewhere. Maybe you have? | ||
| pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 420 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 |
Making fun of someone’s lack of perfect spelling is not a Christian act. I know you well enough to know you are far better than that. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1177 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.73.234 |
Such a struggle for earthly perfection to the point of ruining families and driving people into depression because they could not measure to HH's patterns.... If only a little widsom could be used...mixed with mercy... things could have been so different for many precious people... | ||
| under_grace Intermediate Member Username: under_grace Post Number: 330 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.162.118.90 |
Hey Daniel, I know you have not been guilty of leaving a letter out of a word try putting an r in leaned and it should come out learned. Of course you probably already knew that. BTW, I am glad you were shown mercy. You posted on this very thread....."On this thread the majority of people posting messages here have made some pretty serious accusations against Homestead. I respect their right to do so and I am not trying to "defend" Homestead,.....I will be honest, I would like to see changes at Homestead, and I think that is the goal of some people here." ....UG Obviously, you have chosen not to post your differences here on this web site. Fair enough, if you went to HW and GL and told them you had serious differences and you thought some things were seriously wrong would you get an audience and would they listen to you or would it be like Bob B..... Bob B. on this same thread..."As you are a former member you may know this already, or maybe things changed in the years after you left, but the leaders of the group go to great lengths to suppress criticism by present or former members. Criticism of the leadership is interpreted by the group as being inherently sinful, so finding two or three other members to go to the leaders with grievances is really unthinkable. You're pretty much on your own, and if you do go to your group leader or to an elder alone, the chances are very good that you will be told that the real problem is not your stated grievance but your unwillingness to submit to God's constituted authority. In other words, if you have a problem, you ARE the problem. If you persist in making waves, you may very well find yourself being publicly rebuked or mocked or ridiculed in the big meeting. After that, you'll think twice before voicing your concerns again. Once you're out, of course, you're considered an apostate and are shunned by the group, so getting someone in the group to even listen to what you have to say is pretty much impossible. Former members who have contacted leaders to air grievances were told to bring their complaints before a "board of elders," which, as you know, is the leaders themselves. This, I think you will agree, doesn't offer much hope of any kind of satisfactory resolution to concerns about abuses of authority within the group." God Bless Under Grace | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 705 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
I find it interesting how one's sense of humour can be dictated by bias. | ||
| pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 421 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 |
A sense of humor applied inappropriately is hurtful and condescending. Only you and Jesus know for sure if your intention was being light hearted or oppressive. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 706 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
PH, I am at Peace. ML has poked and prodded me incessantly. She has called me names, put me down, labeled me a fool, called me ignorant, blind and a liar. Where were the "Christian" acts in all that? UG, You ask; "...if you went to HW and GL and told them you had serious differences and you thought some things were seriously wrong would you get an audience and would they listen to you..." I have been before a 'board' of HH Elders several times. (including the two you named) Every question I asked was answered, and with respect. I have not been 'shunned' or labeled an apostate. I have never been told that I am the problem. Your increasingly desperate attacks are losing credibility. DOwen. | ||
| pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 422 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 |
Jesus was poked and prodded, called names, spit on, beaten and hung up to die. What was his response? | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 707 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
Nice twist, and I agree with your new point, but you missed my original one. If you are going to take it upon yourself to correct my possibly off color remark, then be fair about it and correct ML for her daily blatant breaches of so called "Christian" decorum. God bless, DOwen. P.S. If we were sitting in my living room, then I would be far more open to you volunteering pastoral advice. Out here on the WWW is quite another situation. Peace, DO. (Message edited by dowen on September 22, 2006) | ||
| pureheart Intermediate Member Username: pureheart Post Number: 423 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.40.43.90 |
Wasn’t pastoral advice; was a gentle nudge from one Christian brother concerned for the walk of another Christian brother. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 708 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.153.234.187 |
OK, thanks. DOwen. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1178 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.86.28 |
Dowen the Bible teaches us not to lie. You have said many untruths...I really believe that you do not realize some of the things that go on in HH. My mom saw things, commented on things and yet she could not bring herself to the point OF SAYING THINGS WERE WRONG BUT YET SHE WORRIED ABOUT THINGS... Most people know things are not right there but they are taught to take every thought captive...Touch not God's anointed... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 709 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
"Dowen the Bible teaches us not to lie. You have said many untruths...I really believe that you do not realize some of the things that go on in HH." Soooo, I am lying, but I don't know it... Does that mean I lying, or that I am deceived? Big difference. Just for the record, ML is separated from HH by several years, and thousands of miles. I, on the other hand daily, work with them, share meals with them etc. etc. I have been before their Elders and discussed each and every accusation that has been brought here. As recently as today. Who has more credibility? The bitter railing accuser, or the one who lives in harmony with those being accused? | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1179 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
that depends... You are probably their little "news boy"...I will write a lot here to keep you happy and to have something to talk about...Wouldn't want you to run out of things to tell them... Why don't you start answering some of the questions on these threads? I will paste them again tomorrow as we would like to know your point of view... Many people knew Jim Jones...but really didn't know him... We can be with people everyday and still not know what is in their hearts... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1180 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
that depends... You are probably their little "news boy"...I will write a lot here to keep you happy and to have something to talk about...Wouldn't want you to run out of things to tell them... Why don't you start answering some of the questions on these threads? I will paste them again tomorrow as we would like to know your point of view... Many people knew Jim Jones...but really didn't know him... We can be with people everyday and still not know what is in their hearts... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1181 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
So I have no credibility? Naturally you would defend who you live in harmony with...Maybe you need a job. Who knows??? You say you have discussed EACH AND EVERY accusation that has been brought here...My you sure have been busy... I think that is what opened up my friends' eyes...discussing things written here with HH... I would say even though you lie you lie deceived...I really don't think you really know what you are talking about and I know you have no first hand knowledge of the Brazil work. Neither do you know what my mom told me in private...neither do you know a lot of things... Do you think they are going to trust you with TRUTH?????????????????????????? Does being the mail boy make you feel the Holy Spirit????????????? | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1182 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
I am glad that I know who Jesus is! I am glad that I know He taught mercy... Daniel you said you guess you were one in a thousand...so that means 999 they showed no mercy and that is according to you. Maybe who you are made them have mercy...who knows??? Daniel, I believe mercy is learned. I learned to have mercy right here on the mission field. I did not always think the way I do now. Life teaches us lots of things. Caring for unwanted children and lepers we learn about suffering and not so much physical pain but inward pain...Pain of rejection...pain of being different...pain of little girls being molested by their own fathers, pain of being a different color, pain of being born with aids, pain of leper parents. It has been 40 years working with the poorest of the poor that I have learned that people's greatest need is not a long list of laws and patterns but it is LOVE...to be wanted, to be cared for, to be a part of something. I learned a long time ago that "law" resulted in the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and scribes that Jesus so condemned. Observing the law created an exact opposite mental attitude than Jesus intended. I say this with caution but I think what made my mom keep saying don’t tell this or that to the brothers is because of fear of breaking HH laws and it being found out. If you will closely notice the ministry of Jesus He never condemned except those that did condemn. Now, by saying this does this mean I think a person can live in sin? Of course not…But I believe grace and forgiveness is the very reason Jesus came. Daniel I SAW no MERCY in HH…Since you are one in 1000 I missed seeing mercy in your case. I can remember elders screaming, pointing fingers in peoples faces. BA stomping out of a meeting because they couldn’t sing his favorite song…I remember RA asking for the meeting to continue and BA screaming out I said the meeting is dismissed…I can remember everyone in a hushed silence getting up looking at each other with blank stares…I saw no mercy toward my mom and her trip to Belize. I still hear her voice in my dreams weeping, why would a bunch of “bullies” want to do that in the name of God to an old women that had given 30 plus years of her life typing their poof papers? What harm being with my husband and me at that point would we have been to her? And what harm would she have been to a missionary she dreamed of visiting. Why such cruel hard unusual punishment? How could an old lady harm them and their cause? Why turn a mom against her children? Why turn families against each other? Where is the love of Christ they talk so much about? | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1183 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
I witnessed the anger of leaders to other people…In all my years as a missionary and visiting thousands of churches I have never once saw leaders be so hard and cold. Is this what Jesus really meant when He told us to go and learn I am glad that I know who Jesus is and He taught mercy... Daniel you said you guess you were one in a thousand...so that means 999 we showed no mercy and that is according to you. Maybe who you are made them have mercy...who knows??? . I am afraid that HH understands neither Scripture nor religion, when, relying on external performances, they neglect love to God and man, which is the very soul and substance of true religion. I am not saying they are not good people for most are. But they are to dependent on man as God to save them. That is dangerous. I found the biggest part of HH people living in the house of fear instead of the house of love…You do not earn salvation Dowen it is a free gift of God. Of course God has things He wants us to live up to for our on good, for our protection There must be balance. All the huffing and puffing I saw at HH means nothing towards salvation. We do not buy God’s grace through perfect music, fairs, presentations, all these things may be nice and I really think HH has good music, beautiful fair, pretty presentations…but that is not the REAL HH… The church, Dowen is not a museum for saints but a hospital for sinners and that is why the doors of the church are open. We do not have to put on some big false front. There are no perfect people at HH or anywhere else. Ever heard of the story of the sinner the church refused to let in their doors? The sinner went to the Lord to complain that the church would not let him in…Yes, I know Jesus said they will not let me in either…. HH is so worried about their image to the outside they have defeated their own purpose. For the purpose of the church is far different from the gospel of HH. I cannot imagine Jesus Christ as a HH elder… I still see in my mind the last meeting with them in the cabin…the elders telling me to kill the baby…their hard faces, stoic, joyless and judgmental eyes focused on us. I did not feel the love of God at all. I felt the spirit of evil. What good could come out of destroying someone? Where does the Bible give power to take away the choice and freedom of others? Where does the Bible give man the job of breaking some other human being? | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 710 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Missionary Lady, You have many things wrong, but we will start with the few things in this last post. You said; "You are probably their little "news boy"..." What in the world does that mean? For now, I am forced to take that as yet another un-becoming put down and childish attempt at marginalization. "I will write a lot here to keep you happy and to have something to talk about..." Again, huh? What is that supposed to mean? Few things would make me happier than for you to quit spouting nonsense here. "Wouldn't want you to run out of things to tell them..." This is wrong on so many levels that I hardly know where to start. First, I despise the way you refer to "them" as some kind of low life scum bags. Second, I find it hilarious that your opinion of your ramblings here is so high. I mean, seriously, come on. Your self-righteous proclamations here are but a mere side note in my conversations with HH members. "Why don't you start answering some of the questions on these threads?" Good grief ML. I have devoted HOURS (and over a thousand posts) to answering the inane "questions" posted on this board. How in the world can you make a valid argument that I have not answered questions? "Many people knew Jim Jones...but really didn't know him..." Yes, and to whom did Jesus say "Depart from me, I never knew you"? "We can be with people everyday and still not know what is in their hearts..." Ahhhh, now I get it... You have run out of ways to sideline me. Just like the "undergrace" fellow, your last method of defense is to insult my intelligence. You truly grow more pathetic with every post. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 711 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Sigh. I see you have let loose a torrent of ranting while I was writing my above post. Please, take your issues up with someone more important that HH's "little mail boy". I am sick of your tripe. Your post's here show that you are more interested in venting that resolving. Take a deep breath, please. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 712 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
In case anyone is interested, "tripe" is a (new to me) word I learned the other day. Here is part of Wiki's definition; Fresh tripe, which includes bits of the stomach's last content, smells very unappetizing for humans but is a favourite of many dogs and other carnivores. Tripe has to be watered and meticulously cleaned for human consumption. "Green tripe" refers to unwashed tripe, not suitable for human consumption but often used in dog food. Green tripe is not actually green, but dark brown. Tripe is also a term synonymous with rubbish, in the sense of something of little value, or nonsense, and is often used in the Yorkshire dialect. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1184 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
Maybe you Dowen should go back and read from other people...people I have never met, never had a conversation with, people that ALL write the SAME things about HH...each story is lived and related through a different set of eyes but they are like the Amish stories and the JW stories they all tell the same thing...the heart cry is the same. If HH was what I thought it was it would be a garden of Eden on planet earth...but the longer I was there, the more the people talked to me, the more I saw, the more I heard, the more I saw their dealings with others I realized they were not what I thought they were... Was I hurt? Yes, I was but that is not the reason I write here...that is forgiven on my part but I write for others...I wish to save them the heartache, the let down... I weep for those who have a call of God on their life but if HH elders do not put their ok on it the call means nothing. I weep for my mom...I weep for a girl that wanted to be a missionary, I weep for fathers and mothers that shun their own children, For children that shun fathers and mothers, I weep for siblings that do not speak to each other...I weep for my friend that handed me a magazine telling me not to mention it to others...I weep for a people that different ones said, don't talk in front of so and so they run tell, I weep for a people that live in a village called HH... Dowen, do you doubt these things? Do you doubt I recieve e mails almost everyday from ones that were once in HH...from people that have family there but are not allowed to hold a decent conversation? I weep also for the young people there...For those that found "time" to speak to me and ask questions about Brazil... Dowen, when man becomes a god to any people terrible things happen...for man is not God neither does man have the ability to change God's word and make it a scare tatic to hold any people to some belief system... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1185 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
Dowen you are the one who said you went over everything discussed here on this board with HH elders...so it sounds like to me you are the mail carrier... It is easy for you to accuse me of all kinds of things...you kinda take it hard when tables turn... It does not matter to me what you say or what you write here I have never told ONE LIE on HH. I have only related true happenings... Yes. I know what tripe is...it is cooked and ate in Brazil..............Has great value to the hungry...You probably have never been hungry...People love to eat tripe here... Ever heard the word Jaded...that word might ring a bell with one of your elder friends... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1186 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
Dowen says: This is wrong on so many levels that I hardly know where to start. First, I despise the way you refer to "them" as some kind of low life scum bags. Sister Alvear says, I did not know "them" means low life scum bags... You defined the word them I did not...Never heard that definition before... | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
"I weep for fathers and mothers that shun their own children" I witnessed this. "For children that shun fathers and mothers" I witnessed this. "I weep for siblings that do not speak to each other" I witnessed this. "don't talk in front of so and so they run tell" I witnessed this. "the leaders of the group go to great lengths to suppress criticism by present or former members" I witnessed this. "you may very well find yourself being publicly rebuked or mocked or ridiculed in the big meeting" I witnessed this. 7 years I wasted in that place. I saw it all. They are so off base I think God has turned his face away from them. They are lost and don't know it. So sad! | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1187 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
and Dowen who are you to resolve anything concerning HH? You are not even a member??? I know of nothing that needs to be resolved... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1188 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.13.81 |
and Dowen who are you to resolve anything concerning HH? You are not even a member??? I know of nothing that needs to be resolved... Dowen is so funny getting all worked up over something he is not even a part of... | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
The ones inside.........too late, they won't change.......brainwashed! Got to let the ones not yet trapped know! Beware!!!! God help you to see...before too late!! | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
Like a moth to a flame I was drawn in.....and burned..... | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
pretty on the outside........... dead on the inside.......... they pray all day...and all night.... but their actions have caused God to turn away.... And dust will cover their tongues until they change........ | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 713 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Ahhh, this is better than a Broadway show. Gloryseeker, you should apply for a job writing those shows. Your theatrics are comedy gold. "Dowen is so funny getting all worked up over something he is not even a part of..." As you told me once, HA. You have yet to see/read me "all worked up", so do us all a favor and chill out. This message board and site is a joke, and I treat it as such. If you don't like the way I (or anyone else) play, pick up your toys and go home. | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
Dowen, You are the epitome of their leaders. Same smart mouth...same hard heart.... You make it easy to demostrate the way they are. Just like you! | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
So folks if you want to know the true nature of HH.........just read and study Dowen's posts. | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
A chip off the old block..... | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
7 years I wasted in that place. I saw it all. | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
You can cover it up but it won't go away. It happened. It probably still happens. So sad. | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
"I weep for fathers and mothers that shun their own children" I witnessed this. "For children that shun fathers and mothers" I witnessed this. "I weep for siblings that do not speak to each other" I witnessed this. "don't talk in front of so and so they run tell" I witnessed this. "the leaders of the group go to great lengths to suppress criticism by present or former members" I witnessed this. "you may very well find yourself being publicly rebuked or mocked or ridiculed in the big meeting" I witnessed this. | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
Must sleep. Sleep helps me forget the hurt. Good night. God bless................................... | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 714 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Yada yada yada. You are late to the party 'Glory seeker', and it seems you have missed out on some glory. Maybe racking up posts equals gaining glory. Just a thought. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 715 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 67.9.93.81 |
Must sleep. Sleep helps me forget the hurt. Good night. God bless................................... Like I said, fodder for a Broadway show. You're going to make some producer rich. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1192 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.114.243 |
A chip off the old block that didn't end up in the village??????????? Your spirit is like their spirit you always know everything...My husband and I laughed at them so many times because they wanted to act like they knew all about Pentecostal churches but in reality they don't even know the language of Pentecostal churches... They are quite a mixed bred...trying to write their own Bible...men trying to be Jesus in the flesh...coming to people and if they are not received then the person would not receive Jesus...that is not a new doctrine many cults use it. No man is Jesus in the flesh... What I saw of their various forms of jesus he sure needs some nerve pills...they get awful nervous over nothing...get all worked up, calling meetings...lol...jesus has got to let off some steam... We according to the Bible can be ambassadors…we represent Jesus, we have the authority He gave us but we are NOT Jesus in the flesh. 2 Corinthians 3:3, proclaims, "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart." Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart." We ought to behave as holy emissaries, conducting ourselves as veritable ambassadors for Christ. Man was born in sin…with a sinful nature…Therefore man cannot be Jesus in the flesh! 1 Kings 8:46 says - "...for there is no man that sinneth not..." Job 14:4 says - "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." Job 15:14 says - "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?" Job 25:4 says - "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?" Psalm 51:5 says - "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Ecclesiastes 7:20 says - "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Romans 3:9 says - "...for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin." James 3:2 says - "For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." When men try to be god they are only fooling the deceived, the simple and the ignorant. No person in their right mind would think a mere man could be Jesus Christ... they really are Puppeteers, string pullers... trying to use the name of God to bring about their purpose. Of course that is my opinion from what I witnessed. Studying all that has been sent to me, what people have told me, what I personally know I do not think it was intended to end up as it has...but power is both good and bad...power brings out good and bad in people...Power given to people that are not ready for it only destroys... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1193 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.114.243 |
Destruction seems to be the trail of HH... Can you imagine telling about a person's sex life at their funeral?????????? NO, I was not there but I was told by their camp what was said at the funeral...I really cannot imagine something like that... When we were at HH we saw how little wisdom they have...and as our friends told us...that is what saved you all from their trap...their own men trying to force us...that showed us what they really wanted... There was no need of them trying to force us to join. We were there! If they were interested in helping us which we thought they were for a time, why try to force something down our throats? It was a hard cold slap in the face when we realized what they really wanted was not to help us for I really asked them for anything they had that might help us grow closer to God. I wanted to learn how to help our people support themselves. I realized it was not soap making, arts and crafts, teachings about home life etc that that they had on their mind it was running the work in Brazil. Everyone tried to tell me that…but I could not believe those people in that little village had that on their mind! I was willing to overlook things I thought strange and far out because I thought I saw something good…something I thought real…something that would work on the mission field…at first it did not matter to me if they read magazines, if they wore ties or no ties, if they had been to Walmart or not I saw the gardens, the homemade things, the possibilities that would help the mission field so much but what I did not know was I only was seeing a front not the real thing. At first I really believed all they had to say in spite of everything that people had told me...their words were as soft as butter...sweeter than honey...I really thought they were sincere and the rest of the world was wrong. I had to be hurt to really see it was what everyone tried to tell me.... I had to really realize how overbearing they were before I would admit it...but when pastors called me and asked if I gave them permission to use our name at their fair I said no...Then slowly it all hit me...they were trying to fulfill their own prophecies through our work. No wonder they told me to kill the baby…they must have wanted the baby… I really thought highly of them as long as they kept me blinded but when suddenly blinders were pulled off (too soon) thank the Lord I saw what Romans 8:28 proclaims, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." God let the blinders fall off. Many Pastors since have commented on the mistake God let them make or we would have swallowed their message…without even realizing what it really was. God was so good to warn us...or it would have been a complete disaster in our churches and ministry. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1194 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.114.243 |
(Message edited by Missionary_lady on September 23, 2006) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1195 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.114.243 |
Decided to edit and erase my last message. To strong for dowen...and to many names of people sent to me from e mails...might get him too upset...even though it is true. He has a hard time dealing with facts on this board....As you notice he denies no claims that I or anyone else put here because he would deny truth. He just calls me names, says things off the wall...and now decided seeking glory could make money for some producer making a film...Well, well...there have been films made before on cults...I guess another one would not make that much difference except there are people there that I care for... However: 2 Corinthians 13:5 admonishes us to - "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Jesus Christ in you not you are Jesus...a world of difference...Jesus could walk on water because of the fact He was the son of God and God manifest in flesh...but how many jesus in the flesh Dowen do you know that walk on water? There happens to be a world of difference in what the Bible teaches about Jesus Christ and what HH teaches about Jesus Christ... (Message edited by Missionary_lady on September 23, 2006) | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
make fun of me........ you are a sad excuse.... you fit them and their attitude....... rotten fruit from a rotten tree...... | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
I should expect it....no surprise. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1196 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.7.67 |
I think of the words of Martin Luther King: “Our lives begin to end the day we are silent about things that matter.” I will not be silent. If others chose silence in the face of wrong doings that is their sin...I refuse to be silent... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 557 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, In this post I will comment on an issue that Mrs. Alvear has raised a dozen times or so and can use a short response. Mrs. Alvear is concerned that she went to a meeting that was dismissed abruptly. We are discussing one of the excellent aspects of HH. When HH gathers together it is first and foremost for the purpose that the Holy Spirit would move. The believers are called to come to the meetings with a burden and with something to share from God (1 Corinthians 14). (And often there are visitors as well in contradiction to what is stated here.) The body is to be built up, strengthened, encouraged from the meetings in worship and prayer and song and testimony and teaching. Now earlier we did discuss the sense of holiness in the context of some fellowship meetings being limited in attendance. How difficult it is if ingrained difficulties are brought in, this becomes the focus of necessity. Often new guests or visitors are brought initially to home meetings. The full fellowship meetings being for those walking in a sustained vision and strength and victory. Yet often they will have visitors. So fellowship meetings have many purposes. Not as a showcase of talents, but for the presence of God to be in the midst of His people. And not only to to bring forth planned teachings. By the grace of God, each fellowship will have the Holy Spirit move. Fellowship meetings are 'for the perfecting of the saints' (Ephesians 4:12) and are based on the premise of 'Let all things be done unto edifying.' (1 Corinthians 14:26). Thus if there is too much worldly self-centeredness, disattention or other undercurrents ... such lack of spiritual preparation is palapable and sensed by those in ministry. The flesh of man is a great obstacle to the move of the Holy Spirit. The disbanding of a meeting is one way that there may be a Holy Spirit response. Or a change of direction. Or switching to a prayer meeting. At HH there is not a churchianity script that is followed. Please keep in mind that this is not peculiar only to HH. I have seen similar in Pentecostal circles. A church service meeting disbanded to a prayer meeting in response to folks expecting a church script music-formula. The musicians or the pastor or the preacher being the focus, rather than each one coming prepared in God. The difference is largely one of degree and sensitivity. HH desire the Holy Spirit to move in all such gatherings. There is no point in playing church, it will not fly. So over the years there has been on occasion meetings such as Mrs. Alvear experienced, fellowship gatherings that were disrupted or disbanded by the Holy Spirit. One can consider it an honor to be in a fellowship where the move of the Holy Spirit is put first. At the very least one could try to respect and honor the sanctity and awe of such gatherings even if uncomprehending. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
The disbanding of the meeting is decided by one spoiled man who thinks he is God's chosen. When he speaks it is a message directly from God. He stomps his foot, screams in anger, and storms out of the meeting like a child. Hardly a move of the Spirit. | ||
| seekingglory New member Username: seekingglory Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2005 Posted From: 24.162.135.208 |
.........."Yet often they will have visitors"............. extreamly rare! | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1197 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.119 |
No, I am not concerned that I went to a meeting that was disbanded by the Holy Spirit and that boarders on blasphemy what I saw and a bunch of brainwashed people looking at each other not knowing what to do…That was not the H.S. that causes a man to scream out at his wife in front of everybody. It was not disbanded by the Holy Spirit is was disbanded by anger Even HH people were shocked at such anger...There was no awe in that service just the spirit of evil. I tell you what I saw a display of self love. Mr. Prax I have been in the Pentecostal movement ALL my life and I happen to know what I saw at that moment was NOT GOD. At the expense of being laughed at one this board I will tell you Brazil meeting are like Pentecostal meeting used to be back in the “brush harbor days” I do happen to know about the two strongest powers at work in the world…I live in a devil worshipping country and have hundreds of converted witchdoctors in our work…What I saw that day are HH was a manifestation of the devil and not God. You were not even there so you do not even know what you are talking about….Quit beating the air….Talk about things you know about… | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1198 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.119 |
No, I am not concerned that I went to a meeting that was disbanded by the Holy Spirit and that boarders on blasphemy what I saw and a bunch of brainwashed people looking at each other not knowing what to do…That was not the H.S. that causes a man to scream out at his wife in front of everybody. It was not disbanded by the Holy Spirit is was disbanded by anger Even HH people were shocked at such anger...There was no awe in that service just the spirit of evil. I tell you what I saw a display of self love. Mr. Prax I have been in the Pentecostal movement ALL my life and I happen to know what I saw at that moment was NOT GOD. At the expense of being laughed at one this board I will tell you Brazil meeting are like Pentecostal meeting used to be back in the “brush harbor days” I do happen to know about the two strongest powers at work in the world…I live in a devil worshipping country and have hundreds of converted witchdoctors in our work…What I saw that day are HH was a manifestation of the devil and not God. You were not even there so you do not even know what you are talking about….Quit beating the air….Talk about things you know about… | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1199 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.119 |
did you say edifying the church?????????? I saw no one edified that day only a people that wanted to worship and the leader showed his temper and dismissed the meeting...his own wife in front of the whole church pleaded with him to continue the meeting. Don't tell me there is some great spiritual awe in something like that... Prax...take up for them all you like but don't make yourself a fool on this board... No one is not saying they do not feel the presence of the Lord...we are talking about a certain service...when I watched people walk out in dismay... Jesus did not send the people away hungry...I saw a people sent away hungry... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1200 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.119 |
I agree that meetings are not a showcase for talents or anything....but a place where the christian can recieve strength, the sinner forgiveness of sins, the weary can find rest...the people can be encouraged, the saints can be taught....meetings are for many purposes but not for the display of some human that claims to have God's last word to mankind... Come on Prax you don't believe all that or you would be there... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 1201 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 200.147.99.119 |
well, today is a busy day for an old tired missionary...so if you all would say a prayer for me it would be appreciated... | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 558 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.219.212 |
Hi Folks, Mrs. Alvear and seekingglory - "boarders on blasphemy ... brainwashed people.." (and much more) You two are simply demonstrating how eyes of flesh will always rebel or reject the spirit of God. How you will become railing accusers of the brethren. And to seekingglory - you are fairly new to posting here, there is a way of balaam from which you should turn. I share this to you as a friend, even if you are at great distance spiritually and doctrinally and other ways from HH. You will only hurt your walk with God as some others here have done to theirs. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
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