| Author | Message | ||
     johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
Hi all, Please look at the following. It is clearly chows how some companies go against the Bible. http://www.justiceforanimals.co.za/anti_vivisection.html | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 299 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Here is the FDA's position on animal testing. Animal use in testing FDA regulated products Moreover, in all cases where animal testing is used, FDA advocates that research and testing derive the maximum amount of useful scientific information from the minimum number of animals and employ the most humane methods available within the limits of scientific capability. Non-animal tests, such as in vitro tests, may be useful as screening tools to indicate the relative toxicity or safety of a substance that comes into contact with the eye or skin. However, the responses and results of in vitro tests alone do not necessarily demonstrate the safety of a substance. The effects of a substance on a biochemical reaction or on a specific cell or tissue in culture may differ from its effect on a specific organ system in the animal as a whole. God gave us dominion over all the animals. I'm glad that most scientists only use animal testing when it is absolutely necessary and do all that they can to minimize the animal's suffering. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Intermediate Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 309 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.110.89.113 |
Johnvanzyl, Title of thread and initial post are deliberately misleading -- why resort to deception to get your message out? | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Well have a look at the pictures. Satanists do the same thing to animals. Animal testing does not work. Look at Thalidamide - It was successfully tested on 1000's of baboons and monkeys, and then tried on humans, causing birth deformities. What the FDA says, is not relevant. The FDA are a group of people. Locking Moneys up in cages for 20 years does not minimize the animal's suffering. It is extremely cruel. The Bible says that we should respect the earth and the animals. Nobody can call themselves a Christian if they are not Christ-like. Chirst would not do animal testing. | ||
| devilsadvocate666 (devilsadvocate666) Member Username: devilsadvocate666 Post Number: 83 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 68.227.221.19 |
John, First off, WE DON'T ABUSE ANIMALS! Modern Satanists do NOT abuse animals as a religious tenet. It goes against what we believe to abuse animals. Some will do that, but those individuals are not truly Satanists. Animals represent a being that is comfortable with its nature, something we strive to be like. We strive to be comfortable with our nature. What you are talking about is scientists who think that their search for a better shampoo or eye cleaner is more important that the well being of their animal test subjects. I've done personal research into that field of research, and I find it disgusting. Anybody calling themselves a Modern Satanist would probably be disgusted as well, as these animals are sacrificed for our vanity or medicines that we are not even sure work. | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi, I apologize for generalizing that all Satanists abuse animals. I bet there are more Christians and Reborn-Christians that abuse animals than there are Satanists that abuse animals. Many Christians I have spoken to approve of the abuse. It is all for profit. They commit sins and go against everything that is Christian and then pray for forgiveness every Sunday, to begin again on Monday. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 300 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
johnvanzyl Animal testing does not work. Such a blanket statement. Are you really saying that NO animal testing has ever worked? Locking Moneys up in cages for 20 years does not minimize the animal's suffering. It is extremely cruel. Another wide blanket statement. You would catch all zoos here as well. How exactly do you define “cruelty to animals”? The Bible says that we should respect the earth and the animals. The bible doesn’t say that we shouldn’t use or consume animals. Do you consider using animals for work to be cruel to the animals? Many Christians I have spoken to approve of the abuse. Your definitions of “abuse” and “cruelty” seem large and vague enough to catch every person in them, Christian or not. Is keeping a pet cruel to the animal? Is eating an animal cruel to the animal? Is managing an animal cruel to the animal? Is breaking apart animal families cruel to the animal? | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Keeping a monkey in a small 1m x 1m x 1m cage for 20 years and then killing it is cruel! Some animal testing has worked, but the majority of it is unecessary and for $$$$$ profits only! The bible also doesn't say we shouldn't shoot people with guns. I consider using animals for work to be cruel to the animals - YES. Abuse and cruelty are very similar. It doesn't matter how you word it, but it is the same thing. Here is an Indian proverb that applies: --------------------------------------- Remain close to the Great Spirit. Show great respect for your fellow beings. Give assistance and kindness wherever needed. Be truthful and honest at all times. Do what you know to be right. Look after the well being of mind and body. Treat the earth and all that dwell there on with respect. Take full responsibility for your actions. Dedicate a share of your efforts to the greater good. Work together for the benefit of all man kind. --------------------------------------------- The Bible should have the above in it. Perhaps it was left out conveniently by some evil monk or someone with a hidden agenda. The reason for so many wars and fighting is because of the Bible and organized religion. The cruelty to animals leads also to cruelty to humans. }} | ||
| jeffrey_costa (jeffrey_costa) Intermediate Member Username: jeffrey_costa Post Number: 179 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.147.65.148 |
Yes, what you express is correct Johnvanzyl: I was brought up by a raw food family, making it a life-style of not harming or ingesting animals. I follow your point on unmerciful organizations that profit and capitalize on execution and testing of animals. I also agree that world hostilities are in direct, and indirect result of organized religions and theocracy. But your term "satanic companies" is incorrect. It's a common misconception, due to hollywood, media, and general hype, that satanism has anything to do with animal or human sacrifice. Do you eat animals John? Are you vegan? all the best, Jeffrey | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 306 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Johnvanzyl You are all over the map now. You started out this thread saying Please look at the following. It is clearly chows how some companies go against the Bible.. Your intent was clearly to demonstrate how the bible supports your allegations. But, now in your latest post, you are quoting Indian proverbs and stating The Bible should have the above in it. Perhaps it was left out conveniently by some evil monk or someone with a hidden agenda. So now, you are stating that the bible doesn’t support your allegations, but it should. The bible doesn’t say what you think it “should” say, the bible says what God said. This might interest you Treatment of Animals according to Judaism. It shows that being cruel and abusive to animals is definitely wrong, however, using and consuming animals is perfectly ok. Under Jewish law, animals have some of the same rights that humans have. | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
The Bible doesn't say everything God said. Firstly it wasn't even written in English, but ancient Hebrew and Greek. There were thousands of scrolls and only a few made it into the bible. The Churches of the day and the powers that be put in what they deemed necessary. Even then the translation was not perfect, as it never is. They wrote the bible to suit their own hidden agenda. The old testament is not valid to Christians anyway. The old testament talks about child sacrifice and wars, and eye for an eye. The teachings of christ says, "do unto others as you would have him do unto you". "Others" are animals also. It does not say only humans. All these different religions claiming to be God's word. It is a joke. How is it possible that God would contradict himself? It is all man-made, and a perversion and twisting of the true word. Here are a listof contradictions in the bible: God good to all, or just a few? PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. ------------------------------------------------- War or Peace? EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen. ------------------------------------------------- Who is the father of Joseph? MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. ------------------------------------------------- Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it: MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. ------------------------------------------------- Is Jesus equal to or lesser than? JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one. JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. ------------------------------------------------- Which first--beasts or man? GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. ------------------------------------------------- The number of beasts in the ark GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. ------------------------------------------------- How many stalls and horsemen? KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem. ------------------------------------------------- Is it folly to be wise or not? PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." ------------------------------------------------- Human vs. ghostly impregnation ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. ------------------------------------------------- The sins of the father ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. ------------------------------------------------- The bat is not a bird LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, LEV 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind; LEV 11:15 Every raven after his kind; LEV 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, LEV 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl, LEV 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle, LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat. DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind, DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind, DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan, DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant, DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. ------------------------------------------------- Rabbits do not chew their cud LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. 'Gerah', the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated 'chew the cud' in the KJV is more exactly 'bring up the cud'. Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it. ------------------------------------------------- Insects do NOT have four feet LEV 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; LEV 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. LEV 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you. ------------------------------------------------- Snails do not melt PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. ------------------------------------------------- Fowl from waters or ground? GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. ------------------------------------------------- Odd genetic engineering GEN 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted. ------------------------------------------------- The shape of the earth ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Astromical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed. ------------------------------------------------- Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: ------------------------------------------------- Earth supported? JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Heaven supported too JOB 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. ------------------------------------------------- The hydrological cycle ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. JOB 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, Storehouses are not part of the cycle ------------------------------------------------- Order of creation Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition: Day 1: Sky, Earth, light Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!) Day 3: Plants Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids) Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.) Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time) Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did) Note that there are "days", "evenings", and "mornings" before the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim", which is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods". In this tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each step that "it was good". The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes: Earth and heavens (misty) Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth) Plants Animals Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib) ------------------------------------------------- How orderly were things created? #1: Step-by-step. The only discrepancy is that there is no Sun or Moon or stars on the first three "days". #2: God fixes things up as he goes. The first man is lonely, and is not satisfied with animals. God finally creates a woman for him. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things) ------------------------------------------------- How satisfied with creation was he? #1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied. #2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things) ------------------------------------------------- Moses' personality Num.12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth." Num.31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves." ------------------------------------------------- Righteous live? Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree." Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart." ------------------------------------------------- Acts 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." Matt. 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field." ------------------------------------------------- Jesus' first sermon plain or mount? Matt.5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...." Luke6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..." ------------------------------------------------- Jesus' last words Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost." Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." ------------------------------------------------- Years of famine II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee? I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destryed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; ------------------------------------------------- Moved David to anger? II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Isreal and Judah. I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Isreal, and provoked David to number Israel. ------------------------------------------------- The GENEALOGY OF JESUS? In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) is mentioned. Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus(PBUH). The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father. ------------------------------------------------- God be seen? Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9 God CAN be seen: "And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23) "And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11) "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30) God CANNOT be seen: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20) "Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16) ------------------------------------------------- CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD: "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling." "The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11) "For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34) "The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9) "God is love." (1 John 4:16) ------------------------------------------------- Tempts? "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (Gen 22:1) "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James 1:13) ------------------------------------------------- Judas died how? "And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5) "And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18) ------------------------------------------------- Ascend to heaven "And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11) "No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13) ------------------------------------------------- What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial? Before the cock crow - Matthew 26:34 Before the cock crow twice - Mark 14:30 ------------------------------------------------- How many times did the cock crow? MAR 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept. MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly. LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew. LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice. JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew. ------------------------------------------------- Who killed Saul SA1 31:4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. SA1 31:5 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him. SA1 31:6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together. SA2 1:15 And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died. ------------------------------------------------- How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount MAT 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. MAT 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. MAT 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. MAT 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. MAT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. MAT 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. LUK 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. LUK 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh. LUK 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. LUK 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. ------------------------------------------------- Does every man sin? KI1 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; CH2 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near; PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ------------------------------------------------- Who bought potter's field ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. ------------------------------------------------- Who prophesied the potter's field? Matthew 27:9-10 (mentions Jeremy but no such verse in Jeremiah) is in Zechariah 11:12-13 ------------------------------------------------- Who bears guilt? GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden. ------------------------------------------------- Do you answer a fool? PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. ------------------------------------------------- How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have? SA2 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. SA2 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite: ------------------------------------------------- How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign? KI2 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. CH2 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD. ------------------------------------------------- Marriage? Proverbs 18:22 1 Corinthians 7 (whole book. See 1,2,27,39,40) ------------------------------------------------- Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice? ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. ------------------------------------------------- Where was Jesus three days after his baptism? MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; (various trapsing) ------------------------------------------------- How many apostles were in office between the resurection and ascention? 1 Corinthians 15:5 (12) Matthew 27:3-5 (minus one from 12) Acts 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection) MAT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. ------------------------------------------------- Judging 1 Cor 3:15 " The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:" (NIV) 1 Cor 4:5 " Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." ------------------------------------------------- Good deeds Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV) Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV) ------------------------------------------------- For or against? MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. (default is against) MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part. (default is for) LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. (default is for) ------------------------------------------------- Whom did they see at the tomb? MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. God change? malachi 3:6 james 1:17 1 samuel 15:29 jonah 3:10 genesis 6:6 ------------------------------------------------- Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah) MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; zechariah 11:11-13 (nothing in Jeremiah remotely like) ------------------------------------------------- Who's sepulchers acts 7:16 genesis 23:17,18 ------------------------------------------------- Strong drink? proverbs 31:6,7 john 2:11-11 ------------------------------------------------- When second coming? MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 1 thessalonians 4:15-18 ------------------------------------------------- Solomon's overseers 550 in I Kings 9:23 250 in II Chron 8:10 ------------------------------------------------- The mother of Abijah: Maachah the daughter of Absalom 2 Chron 9:20 Michaiah the daughter of Uriel 2 Chron 13:2 ------------------------------------------------- When did Baasha die? 26th year of the reign of Asa I Kings 16:6-8 36th year of the reign of Asa I 2 Chron 16:1 ------------------------------------------------- How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign? 22 in 2 Kings 8:26 42 in 2 Chron 22:2 ------------------------------------------------- Who was Josiah's successor? Jehoahaz - 2 Chron 36:1 Shallum - Jeremiah 22:11 ------------------------------------------------- The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah. ------------------------------------------------- What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial? scarlet - Matthew 27:28 purple John 19:2 ------------------------------------------------- What did they give him to drink? vinegar - Matthew 27:34 wine with myrrh - Mark 15:23 ------------------------------------------------- How long was Jesus in the tomb? Depends where you look; Matthew 12:40 gives Jesus prophesying that he will spend "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth", and Mark 10:34 has "after three days (meta treis emeras) he will rise again". As far as I can see from a quick look, the prophecies have "after three days", but the post-Resurrection narratives have "on the third day". ------------------------------------------------ As you can see, there are indeed MANY MANY contradictions in the bible. It was written by man. There are even statements that say the birds are meant to soar in the skies. Being cruel/abusive to animals is evil! | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
"A good man takes care of his animals, but wicked men are cruel to theirs." Proverbs 12:10 | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
God created all the animals (Psalm 104). "Then God commanded, 'Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life; domestic and wild, large and small, and it was done. So God made them all, and He was pleased with what He saw." Genesis 1:24, 25 All animals belong to God (Psalm 24:1). "All the animals in the forest are Mine and the cattle on thousands of hills. All the wild birds are Mine and all living things in the fields." Psalm 50:10, 11 God cares for the animals (1 John 4:16). "Look at the birds flying around . . . your Father in Heaven takes care of them" Matthew 6:26 -------------------------- It clearly shows that animals are not meant to be used/abused in the way described in my first posting. It is an insult to God to be cruel to animals! Christians that think animal cruelty/abuse is right are plainly evil and go against everything God stands for. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 309 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
johnvanzyl As you can see, there are indeed MANY MANY contradictions in the bible. It was written by man. Since you have such disregard for your bible, why did you open up this thread trying to show that animal testing is against your Bible (i.e. a book that you think is flawed and contradictory)? | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 13 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
Most Christians go along with animal testing and use certain quotes from the Bible to support their views. It is completely foolish. | ||
| carlota (carlota) Intermediate Member Username: carlota Post Number: 391 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.193.161.248 |
Hi Johnvanzyl, Did you notice that Jeffrey Costa asked you if you were vegan? I am interested to know the answer as well. I do not agree with cruel treatment of animals, however if I said I was against animal testing I would be a hipocrite, because my father is alive as a direct result of it. I am also a meat eater, so... again, I'd be a hipocrite. I have never heard christians defend animal cruelty with scriptures from the Bible (though I have heard many other crazy things defended based on the Bible). It seems that the Bible can be used to support or object to any number of things. Ultimately, what is important, is what you believe. You would do better to deal with facts when it comes to your feelings about animal cruelty and animal testing. WIth the facts you can decide how to act upon your feelings in a productive way. There are plenty of organizations that share your feelings about animal cruelty and work to put an end to it. Also, know your enemy...I do not think it is satan or Jesus, but rather meat eaters like me, pharmaceutical and cosmetic companies, fur and animal skin manufacturers and wearers, hunters, animal abusers, race horse owners and (if you are willing to take it this far) those whose life has been either improved or saved as a direct result of animal testing of pharmacuetical products. | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
Hi, I would say that if it is not necessary, then don't do it. Cosmetics, the fur industry, hunting, horse racing etc... are cruel and unecessary. We can all get on just fine without those things. When it comes to saving people's and animal's lives then perhaps there may be exceptions, but only if it is done with no pain or suffereing to the animals. This is not the case, so animal testing should be stopped. I am a vegan, and do not use any animal products or medicines. | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Intermediate Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 330 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.238.89.201 |
I am a vegan, and do not use any animal products or medicines. Do you drive a car? If you were to get seriously ill, would you take medicine of any kind -- pain relievers, antibiotics, cancer treatment, etc.? Do you believe an animal's life has more value than your own? | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
I do not own a car. If I were to get seriously ill, I would refuse all medication. I believe animals have just as much value as humans. Do you believe it is right to kill aniimals for their fur? Do you believe it is right to keep baboons in 1x1x1m cages for 20 years, and then kill them? Do you believe it is right to keep chickens in extremely small cages, where they cannot even move, all to feed the fat McDonalds consumers? Do you believe it is right to test shampoo in rabbits eyes? | ||
| just_curious (just_curious) Intermediate Member Username: just_curious Post Number: 331 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.238.89.201 |
I believe animals have just as much value as humans. Apparently, I value you more than you value yourself. Do you have any objections to abortion? | ||
| jeffrey_costa (jeffrey_costa) Intermediate Member Username: jeffrey_costa Post Number: 183 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.147.65.148 |
Animals, their uses and functions that revolve around humanity as a whole spans over novels worth of reasons and explanations into "why" their treatment can be so cruel. Do animals have just as much value as humans? I suppose it's all how one comprehends the situation. MacDonalds: This is a popular icon for animal rights debates - should MacDonalds have the right, to use (and I've seen it) ruthless practices of curiously brutal techniques on animals, to sell their flesh to wanting consumers? I believe the only way to stop that type of company, is to educate the public on the issue. If a legal suit went far enough up the political latter on this issue, the indictment would fall short of defining "cruelty" - and by statistic, most or all of the magistrate, jury, and pretty much the whole panel would be meat-eaters. Personally, I find eating meat detrimental to the body's constitution, and pointless, seeing as humanity can live cleaner physically, and cleaner morally. I have never eaten a piece of chicken, meat, or fish - I realize that my personal upbringing is in the single digit percentile of popularity, so I realize my perspective is going to be different than most. But: I still feel the only way to stop this kind of abuse to animals, is through a long grueling process of educating the public. This will inevitably take decades to accomplish, and decades I believe would be quick. We live in a primitive era where logic still falls short of human emotion - people, knowing the insane horrible abuse that takes place at the homes of the "MacDonalds cows" will still stop at the drive through window, so they can gorge themselves on hoffs and assholes with cheese - and I assume because - "it tastes fuck'n good". This is primitive thinking, but the popular vote. Until human desire and emotion can yield to 6th chakra logic, problems like abuse, war, disease, hate, bla bla bla, will remain. Another point/angle: If, let's say ...... Ginger'Lee, the sweet 8 year old daughter of Jeff, was to become ill, and only through animal/medical investigation could she have a chance - Well! I would allow genocide for the animals of Noah's Ark to occur before letting her drift from life before my eye's - that's an example of human emotion derailing logic despite the consequences. Interesting subject - I would like to hear an opinion that MacDonalds is not doing anything wrong - I've never heard that from anyone? Odd ..... | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Not to mention all the steroids, hormones and other chemicals they feed the cows before they are killed and sent off to MacDonalds. These chemicals are not destroyed in the cooking of the meat, and are passd on people. No wonder so many MacDonalds customers are obese. Here is how they control the masses: 1. Feed them food filled with chemicals and hormones. Fill their water with poisons and brainwash them with television. 2. The people become fat and unhealthy. They develop cancers and other diseases. 3. Develop drugs and other remedies to heal them. People are all slaves, but it is a covert form. Not many people realize that they're caught up in this cycle that only a handfull of people benefit. | ||
| jeffrey_costa (jeffrey_costa) Intermediate Member Username: jeffrey_costa Post Number: 184 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.60.176.232 |
Before the animals are killed/prepared for food, they experience fear mixed anxiety. I believe this energy is trapped in the flesh, and then ingested by the consumer. This could be explained scientifically, and spiritually ............ Hmmmmmmm? Have you met the "handful of people that benefit" - | ||
| jeffrey_costa (jeffrey_costa) Intermediate Member Username: jeffrey_costa Post Number: 185 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 24.60.176.232 |
What is your proposal to stop or slow this type of ignorance, if any. What do you believe would be a realistic antidote to the situation? | ||
| carlota (carlota) Intermediate Member Username: carlota Post Number: 396 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.193.161.248 |
Hi John and Jeff, Ok, I am going to play the devil's advocate for a moment. I have already said that I am a meat eater and my father has directly benefitted from animal testing of and animal derived pharmaceuticals, for which I offer no apology to anyone. Yet, I am fairly understanding to the cause of ending needless animal cruelty (even if I can not be a hard-liner). Like both of you, I do not like the practices involved in the meat and poultry industry, interms of the treatment and use of antibiotics and steriods. When I do eat meat I cook it at home and I only purchase drug free, free range, farm raised meat. Here's the thing....it's expensive. I would love to see a whole overhaul of the meat and poultry industry and agriculture in the U.S.. but in the meantime I am fortunate enough to be able to afford to buy organic products. I personally hate Mc Donalds. However, John, the "fat Mc Donalds consumers" you mention are, in some cases (at least in my neck of the woods) coming from low income families. I realize this may not be an acceptable excuse, however, I think it is a reality that Mc Donalds and other fast-food chains appeal to people because of their very low prices. IMO, it is less about education than it is about economics. Sure, you might argue that a diet of fast food might end up being more expensive in terms of health, in the long run, but many families in America are living paycheck to paycheck or are even unemployed and have an extremely tight budget for food. They are not concerned with the unforseeable future, but very concerned with tomorrow, the next day and the day after that. And they are concerned about feeding their kids on a tight, alomst non-existent budget. Even in supermarkets the cheapest foods are always the ones that have little nutritional value or are even bad for you. Hotdogs seem to always be on sale at my local supermarket, along with boxed macaroni and cheese, baloney and a general selection of junk food. Meanwhile, fruits and vegetables are more expensive. Organic ones...forget about it. I am for public education, but I think it has to go beyond public education to addressing the economics of eating right. | ||
| carlota (carlota) Intermediate Member Username: carlota Post Number: 397 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.193.161.248 |
Hi, me again... I know I've probably babbled to much, but I thought of something else.... When we think of poverty in the U.S. we don't think of the kind of starvation that is usually asscoiated with poverty in other parts of the world. Why? Junk food. No one really goes hungry no matter how poor they are in the U.S. But that doesn't mean they are well fed. I live in Brooklyn. Parts of Brooklyn are so poor that they resemble what we would consider "third world" countries. I'm not kidding. The only difference is that there is a fast food place (Mc Donalds, KFC, etc.) on nearly every corner. This food, whether we like it or not, sustains some very poor families. I am not saying it is ethical, right or by any means healthy....but simply that it is. And it is better than hunger pains. Having been poor myself I went through a period where I had to eat what I could afford to eat, whether I liked it or not. The simple act of grocery shopping became a luxury, I realized I had always taken for granted. I could not buy the things I wanted, but instead bought whatever was cheapest and would fill my belly. I still tried to eat healthily, but it was significantly harder. If I had kids to feed in addition to myself, I don't know what I would have done. Maybe the 1$ meals at Mc D's would have started to look appealing. | ||
| sharon (sharon) Intermediate Member Username: sharon Post Number: 195 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.92.233 |
johnvanzyl... You said, I bet there are more Christians and Reborn-Christians that abuse animals than there are Satanists that abuse animals. Bet Christ would not have said that either to a satanist. You started off good and then started to lose your way. I am a Christian and I do not eat animals. I also do not buy products that have been tested on animals. If you really want to help your animals try listing companies that buy animal tested produces. Some companies have a morality clauses, like proctor and gamble. Check out that sort of thing. If you make a list I will spread it in my email and you can do the same. Many would like to help but do not know how, so you could have many foot soldiers out there. If you are old enough you will remember that this worked on companies like Dole in the good old days before computers. Also find those who advertise for such companies and they count every letter as like 20 thousand, for that is how many people think a thing but do not write. This is where the money is, always go for that. I swear I had a couple of shows taken off the air all by myself I had so many people I know write emails complaining of bad behavior. These things are easy to do and take little time. It is wonderful you care so much. May God Bless You. | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi, Thanks Sharon for the comments. I actually live in Cape Town, South Africa. I have lived in the US before. We have McDonalds here in South Africa too. The "food" is not that cheap. I don't know how it compares to the US McDonalds though. Is it not cheaper to buy a bag of potatoes, and a few mixed vegetables and make those into a stew or something, than to pay for a single McDonalds "meal"? I have grown my own vegetables for many years, and nothing beats the taste of fresh pea-pods picked in the early morning. They still have the dew on them, and you can almost taste the life-energy entering your body and healing your mind, body and spirit. It is amazing. The same for other vegetables - The aroma of freshly picked carrots travels many many metres through the air. Freshly picked lettuce in a salad mixed with homegrown tomatoes and other fruits. These foods heal the mind, body and spirit. People today are being led to the slaughter by fatcats who run the multi-national countries and spread propaganda about how good their "food" is. It is actually chemically (food coloring, preservatives) enhanced to make it taste better. It consists of all kinds of animal parts, even parts swept off the butchery floors. The meat itself is contaminated with adrenaline which the animals give off when they are in fear. This is passed on to the humans. As Jeff said, it also transmits negative fearsome energy into the meat. There are a wide range of anti-biotics, hormones, steroids and other nasties in the meat, not to mention the chance of catching Mad Cow disease. The fatcat elite, with their brotherhood of buddies, want to stay in power. They want the people to work for minimum wage and then go to their McDonalds for salvation. McDonalds in turn feeds them poison. When they develop cancer and other diseases, there are the big drug companies, also part of the elite brotherhood that come to get more out of them. The people don't know that they are enslaved, if they did know, they would revolt, but they do not even know. They work all day furthering the goals of the elite brotherhood. On my travels, I came across a bunch of young people in London. They came off the plane, and ran straight toward the nearest McDonalds for some kind of happy-meal or something. It was amazing how the children in the USA have been brainwashed, especially from a foreigner's point of view. "Once you relize that you have chains on, you can begin to break them. If you do not realize it, you'll be a slave forever". | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Here is a list of Companies that test on animals: Arm & Hammer (Church & Dwight), P.O. Box 1625, Horsham, PA 19044-6625; 609-683-5900; 800-524-1328; www.armhammer.com tBic Corporation, 500 Bic Dr., Milford, CT 06460; 203-783-2000; www.bicworld.com Boyle-Midway (Reckitt Benckiser), 2 Wickman Rd., Toronto, ON M8Z 5M5 Canada; 416-255-2300 tBraun (Gillette Company), 400 Unicorn Park Dr., Woburn, MA 01801; 800-272-8611; www.braun.com Chesebrough-Ponds (Fabergé, Ponds, Vaseline), 800 Sylvan Ave., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632; 800-743-8640; www.pondssquad.com Church & Dwight (Aim, Arm & Hammer, Arrid, Brillo, Close-up, Lady’s Choice, Mentadent, Nair, Pearl Drops), P.O. Box 1625, Horsham, PA 19044-6625; 609-683-5900; 800-524-1328; www.churchdwight.com Clairol (Aussie, Daily Defense, Herbal Essences, Infusium 23, Procter & Gamble), 1 Blachley Rd., Stamford, CT 06922; 800-252-4765; www.clairol.com Clorox (ArmorAll, Formula 409, Fresh Step, Glad, Liquid Plumber, Pine-Sol, Soft Scrub, S.O.S., Tilex), 1221 Broadway, Oakland, CA 94612; 510-271-7000; 800-227-1860; www.clorox.com Colgate-Palmolive Co. (Ajax, Fab, Hills Pet Nutrition, Mennen, Palmolive, SoftSoap, Speed Stick), 300 Park Ave., New York, NY 10022; 212-310-2000; 800-221-4607; www.colgate.com Coty (Adidas, Davidoff, Glow, The Healing Garden, JOOP!, Jovan, Kenneth Cole, Lancaster, Marc Jacob, Rimmel, Stetson), 1325 Ave. of the Americas, 324th Fl., New York, NY 10019; 212-389-7000; www.coty.com Cover Girl (Procter & Gamble), One Procter & Gamble Plz., Cincinnati, OH 45202; 513-983-1100; 800-543-1745; www.covergirl.com Del Laboratories (CornSilk, LaCross, Naturistics, New York Color, Sally Hansen), 178 EAB Plz., Uniondale, NY 11556; 516-844-2020; 800-952-5080; www.dellabs.com Dial Corporation (Purex, Renuzit), 15101 N. Scottsdale Rd., Ste. 5028, Scottsdale, AZ 85254-2199; 800-528-0849; www.dialcorp.com Erno Laszlo, 3202 Queens Blvd., Long Island City, NY 11101; 718-729-4480; www.ernolaszlo.com tGillette Co. (Braun, Duracell), Prudential Tower Bldg., Boston, MA 02199; 617-421-7000; 800-872-7202; www.gillette.com Helene Curtis Industries (Finesse, Salon Selectives, Thermasilk, Unilever), 800 Sylvan Ave., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632; 800-621-2013; www.helenecurtis.com Johnson & Johnson (Aveeno, Clean & Clear, Neutrogena, ROC), 1 Johnson & Johnson Plz., New Brunswick, NJ 08933; 732-524-0400; 800-526-3967; www.jnj.com Kimberly-Clark Corp. (Cottonelle, Huggies, Kleenex, Kotex, Pull-Ups, Scott Paper), P.O. Box 619100, Dallas, TX 75261-9100; 800-544-1847; www.kimberly-clark.com Lever Bros. (Unilever), 800 Sylvan Ave., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632; 212-888-1260; 800-598-1223; www.unilever.com L’Oréal U.S.A. (Biotherm, Cacharel, Garnier, Giorgio Armani, Helena Rubinstein, Lancôme, Matrix Essentials, Maybelline, Ralph Lauren Fragrances, Redken, Soft Sheen, Vichy), 575 Fifth Ave., New York, NY 10017; 212-818-1500; www.lorealcosmetics.com Max Factor (Procter & Gamble), One Procter & Gamble Plz., Cincinnati, OH 45202; 513-983-1100; 800-543-1745; www.maxfactor.com Mead, 10 W. Second St., #1, Dayton, OH 45402; 937-495-6323; www.meadweb.com Melaleuca, 3910 S. Yellowstone Hwy., Idaho Falls, ID 83402-6003; 208-522-0700; www.melaleuca.com Mennen Co. (Colgate-Palmolive), 191 E. Hanover Ave., Morristown, NJ 07960-3151; 973-631-9000; www.colgate.com Neoteric Cosmetics, 4880 Havana St., Denver, CO 80239-0019; 303-373-4860 New Dana Perfumes, 470 Oakhill Rd., Crestwood Industrial Park, Mountaintop, PA 18707; 800-822-8547 Noxell (Procter & Gamble), 11050 York Rd., Hunt Valley, MD 21030-2098; 410-785-7300; 800-572-3232; www.pg.com Olay Co./Oil of Olay (Procter & Gamble), P.O. Box 599, Cincinnati, OH 45201; 800-543-1745; www.oilofolay.com tOral-B (Gillette Company), 600 Clipper Dr., Belmont, CA 94002-4119; 415-598-5000; www.oralb.com Pantene (Procter & Gamble), One Procter & Gamble Plz., Cincinnati, OH 45202; 800-945-7768; www.pantene.com Pfizer (BenGay, Desitin, Listerine, Lubriderm, Plax, Visine), 235 E. 42nd St., New York, NY 10017-5755; 212-573-2323; www.pfizer.com Physique (Procter & Gamble), One Procter & Gamble Plz., Cincinnati, OH 45202; 800-214-8957; www.physique.com Playtex Products (Baby Magic, Banana Boat, Ogilvie), 300 Nyala Farms Rd., Westport, CT 06880; 203-341-4000; www.playtex.com Procter & Gamble Co. (Clairol, Cover Girl, Crest, Giorgio, Iams, Max Factor, Physique, Tide), One Procter & Gamble Plz., Cincinnati, OH 45202; 513-983-1100; 800-543-1745; www.pg.com Reckitt Benckiser (Easy Off, Lysol, Mop & Glo, Old English, Resolve, Spray ’N Wash, Veet, Woolite), 1655 Valley Rd., Wayne, NJ 07474-0943; 973-633-3600; 800-232-9665; www.reckittbenckiser.com Richardson-Vicks (Procter & Gamble), One Procter & Gamble Plz., Cincinnati, OH 45202; 513-983-1100; 800-543-1745; www.pg.com Sally Hansen (Del Laboratories), 178 EAB Plz., Uniondale, NY 11556; 800-645-9888; www.sallyhansen.com Schering-Plough (Bain de Soleil, Coppertone, Dr. Scholl’s), 1 Giralda Farms, Madison, NJ 07940-1000; 201-822-7000; 800-842-4090; www.sch-plough.com S.C. Johnson (Drano, Edge, Fantastik, Glade, OFF!, Oust, Pledge, Scrubbing Bubbles, Shout, Skintimate, Windex, Ziploc), 1525 Howe St., Racine, WI 53403; 800-494-4855; www.scjohnson.com SoftSoap Enterprises (Colgate-Palmolive), 300 Park Ave., New York, NY 10022; 800-221-4607; www.colgate.com Suave (Unilever), 800 Sylvan Ave., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632; 212-888-1260; 800-782-8301; www.suave.com 3M (Post-It, Scotch), 3M Center, St. Paul, MN 55144-1000; 651-733-1110; 800-364-3577; www.3m.com Unilever (Axe, Calvin Klein, Dove, Helene Curtis, Lever Bros., Suave), 800 Sylvan Ave., Englewood Cliffs, NJ 07632; 212-888-1260; 800-598-1223; www.unilever.com Proctor and Gamble are a major tester of animals. They also subcontract the testing out to other companies, so they can say they don't test as much. It is a lie. | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 19 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
In the early half of this century the petrochemical giants organised a coup on the medical research establishments, hospitals and universities. The Rockefellers did this by sponsoring research and donating monetary gifts to US universities and medical schools where research was drug based and further extended this policy to foreign medical establishments via their International Education Board. Those who were not drug based were refused funding and were soon dissolved in favour of the more lucrative pharmaceutical-based projects. In 1939 the 'Drug Trust' alliance was formed by the Rockefeller Empire and I.G. Farben. After the war, I.G. Farben was dismantled but later emerged in the many guises of the companies with whom they had signed cartel agreements. These companies include: Imperial Chemical Industries (ICI), Borden, Carnation, General Mills, M.W. Kellogg Co., Nestle, Pet Milk, Squibb and Sons, Bristol Meyers, Whitehall laboratories, Procter and Gamble, Roche, Hoechst and Beyer and Co. (two extant pharmaceutical companies who initially employed convicted war criminals Friedrich Jaehne and Fritz ter Meer as board chairmen). The Rockefeller Empire – in tandem with the Chase Manhattan Bank now owns over half of the USA's pharmaceutical interests and is the largest drug manufacturing combine in the world. Since the war the drug industry has steadily netted an ever increasing profit from sales of drugs to become the second largest manufacturing industry in the world next to the arms industry (also owned by the self same Elite agencies). Today, health care is a multi-billion pound industry world-wide with ever increasing expenditure by taxpayers into the system which funnels the majority of this staggering profit into the hands of the drug manufacturers who are, as we have seen, headed by the major Elite manipulators of this century. These companies now control the vast majority of health care and set the standards for the practice of medicine in all developed countries. Doctors are no longer free to choose the most reliable and safe forms of therapy available but are at the mercy of their financial reliance on sponsoring (frequently bribing) drug companies. Once out of drug-company sponsored medical school, doctors embark on a career of increasing workloads and have ever increasing amounts of new pharmaceutical products to use and understand. The sheer volume of literature which a GP will receive from drug sales reps has resulted in the present situation whereby GPs are poorly educated about the chemicals which they are giving to their patients and are essentially gleaning most of their post-graduate training from the salesmen of private business. The moral implications of this are staggering. The number of available drug preparations is now well in excess of 200,000. In 1980, the World Health organisation advised that a mere 240 drugs are necessary in order to provide good health care in the Third World (which should be more than adequate for First World needs considering we are a significantly healthier proportion of the population) whilst in 1981 the United Nations Industrial Development Organisation stated that a mere 26 of these are considered 'indispensables'. Most of the many drugs which are now available are known as 'me-too' drugs, i.e. recombinations and exact reproductions of drugs already available but which are irresistible to other companies who wish to share in their market. For example, the standard analgesics Paracetamol and Aspirin come in a multitude of forms under a variety of different brand names and yet these products can vary in price to a factor of ten or more times for the exact same formula depending on brand type chosen. Often the consumer erroneously presumes that increased price is equivalent to increased quality in this case and are entirely unaware that the drugs they are buying and those which they are rejecting are identical. Doctors are also often guilty of prescribing drugs by trade name and thus netting greater profits for the favoured company whilst cheaper versions are available to the unwary consumer/patient. Usually, before handing in a prescription it pays to consult the attending pharmacist if there is an equivalent and cheaper drug available. This can save some chronic drug users hundreds of pounds per year. Pharmaceutical companies rely upon ill health in the population to survive and reap their profits. No drug company has a vested interest in curing disease. They do, however, have a massive vested interest in maintaining ill-health, creating disease and manufacturing chemicals which will promote this under the guise of 'therapy' for the symptoms – rarely ever the cause – of disease. Dr John Braithwaite, now a Trade Practices Commissioner, in his expose, Corporate Crime in the Pharmaceutical Industry, states: 'International bribery and corruption, fraud in the testing of drugs, criminal negligence in the unsafe manufacturing of drugs – the pharmaceutical industry has a worse record of law-breaking than any other industry.' In the US in 1978 1.5 million people were hospitalised because of medication side-effects alone. In 1991 in the US, 72,000 people were killed due to iatrogenic – that is doctor-induced – causes whilst 24,073 died of victims of firearms shootings, which makes doctors nearly three times more lethal than guns! This has serious implications for other countries including Britain because the US are the foremost pioneers in the health care field and what occurs in health care in the US is usually implemented in Britain a decade later. The drugs industry has managed to sell to the majority of the world the idea that disease is largely an inevitable part of life, especially during the later years. Through its front-line representatives – the medical system – it has effectively reduced the range of choices of health care to which the public has access. Through funding and educational control it has seen to it that natural forms of treatment are largely ignored and grossly under-researched. Those organisations which do reveal the true causes of disease and promote effective forms of disease prevention, such as nutritional medicine, healing and naturopathy are regularly attacked in the mass media and publicly labelled as quacks by pharmaceutically-sponsored de-bunking organisations such as the Campaign Against Health Fraud, now called Healthwatch. They have also sold to us the idea that natural remedies and cures which have been successfully employed for centuries are 'alternatives' and to be treated with great scepticism and caution. Frequently, we are told of how one or two people have been injured or killed through the misapplication of a herbal remedy by dubious alternative practitioners but are not told at the same time of the thousands who are damaged by the conventional drugs which are handed out like sweets by our doctors. During their initiation into the Western medical tradition most of our young doctors are repeatedly informed by their superiors that therapies which are alternative to classic western medicine are fraudulent and quackish. They are told that there is no scientific evidence to support any of the claims of psychic healing, crystal therapy, colour therapy and the like and the whole area is dismissed with a superior grin and a wave of the hand. A mountain of study is then hurled at the junior doctors, on top of an already inhumane workload of practical hours, to be spent absorbing the biased views of their forebears. A junior doctor has not even enough time to explore the realms of stress-free relaxation never mind alternative thought and therapies. Much the same methods are used by certain religious organisations to indoctrinate the minds of their followers into a single belief system. The key tactics, to which most doctors will relate, are: maintenance of sleep deprivation so as to minimise resistance to teachings, isolation from the outside world until one is literally eating, breathing and sleeping the set doctrine of the cult, and maintenance of a fear of failure to conform through almost unachievably high level goal setting; often via frequent examinations. I believe that western medicine is as much a dogmatic cult as popular Christianity or the Moonies. It breeds its young on dogma to the exclusion of free will and reasoned thought in order to perpetuate itself. It is controlled by instilling into its members the fear of failure and it thrives by exploiting the initial motivation of its members, which is love and a desire to help and heal others. At the apex of the pyramid of medicine lie the controllers; not doctors, but the multinational pharmaceutical companies who exist, not for the benefit of others, but for the desire for money and power. And behind them lies the sinister organisation of global secret societies headed by the Illuminati. It is through this subtle mind control that the System maintains itself. Veiled in secrecy and fuelled by fear, the monster machine controls every aspect of our lives. The medical system is an integral part, but nevertheless only one aspect, of the overall design which seeks power and neither cares how this power is achieved, nor how many individuals are destroyed in the process. As an example of the fraud perpetuated by the pharmaceutical companies, the next section will take a close look at the AIDS scandal, which illuminates how these companies have infiltrated every area of the healthcare system are willing to endanger people, allowing them to be killed, for profit via the industry's tool of corruption and front organisation, our own medical system: | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
http://www.pandgkills.com/you/merch.html | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
http://www.pandgkills.com/facts/index.html | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
http://www.pandgkills.com/facts/cosmetic_testing.html | ||
| johnvanzyl (johnvanzyl) New member Username: johnvanzyl Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
Boycott these Procter & Gamble products until P&G stops using animal tests and use these cruelty-free alternatives. When shopping, you can also examine products to make sure they don't have Procter & Gamble branding on them before you purchase them. Also look at Procter & Gamble's official site for a total listing of their brands and products. Companion Animal Care Cosmetics Deodorants Diapers and Baby Care Food and Beverage Fragrances Hair Care Laundry and Cleaning Non-Prescription Drugs and Health Aids Oral Care Paper Products Skin Care Soap Companion Animal Care Eukanuba IAMS (see IAMSKills.com for more details) Top of page Cosmetics Cover Girl Max Factor Oil of Olay Top of page Deodorants Old Spice Secret Sure Top of page Diapers and Baby Care Luvs Pampers Top of page Food and Beverage Folgers Millstone Coffee Pringles Sunny Delight Torengos Top of page Fragrances Giorgio of Beverly Hills Helmut Lang Herve Leger Hugo Boss Old Spice Top of page Hair Care A Touch of Sun Aussie Balsam Color Clairol Head & Shoulders Herbal Essences Hydrience Infusium 23 Lasting Color Loving Care Men's Choice Natural Instincts Nice 'n Easy Pantene Pert Plus Physique Ultress Vidal Sassoon Top of page Laundry and Cleaning Bounce Cascade Cheer Dawn Downy Dreft Dryel Era Febreze Gain Ivory Ivory Snow Joy Mr. Clean Swiffer Tide Top of page Non-Prescription Drugs/Health Aids DayQuil Metamucil NyQuil Pepto-Bismol PUR water filtration system Sinex Thermacare Vicks Oral Care Crest Fixodent Gleem Scope Whitestrips Top of page Paper Products Bounty Charmin Puffs Top of page Skin Care Clearstick Cover Girl Max Factor Noxzema Ohm Olay Top of page Soap Camay Ivory Safeguard Zest | ||
| sharon (sharon) Intermediate Member Username: sharon Post Number: 197 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.74.53 |
johnvanzyl ....Guess their morality clause does not cover animals. Thank you so much for that list. I did not chose to stop eating meat because it say so in the bible but in the first chapter on the first page it says that God made the animals but that man is to eat growing thing, not the animals. Then at the end of the bible Gods idea of paradise is that the lion lay down with the lamb. So start to finish he is very clear that his idea of paradise is not eating the animals. I am 53 and just came to the conclusion a couple years ago that I was doing wrong, and now I am ashamed of what I have done, live and learn. But I also want to be active in the educating of others so they do not have to be ashamed at the end of their lives that they have caused so much pain and suffering. I always thought of myself as a good person, born again. It is not so easy to over look what I have done now and hope it is the worst of my crimes, for I do not think I could face any thing more than this. I thank you for your efforts and know that some are out there reading your words and changing their lives and animals are being saved by what you are doing, May God Bless You. | ||
| bear (bear) Intermediate Member Username: bear Post Number: 134 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 4.165.239.244 |
It is true that our bodies do better not eating certain meat. However, after th flood, meat was allowed. I feel better when I limit the intake of meant, and get my protein from other sources. A good steak tastes great from time to time, though. Animal testing is an interesting topic. If animals are abused, it is wrong. | ||
| sharon (sharon) Intermediate Member Username: sharon Post Number: 283 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.76.138 |
bear (bear),,,IF... it is part of the reason we are losing the battle, for all of creation is going to tell on us come judgement day. Billions of screaming animals are slaughtered every day. Many while still alive. This horror is a disgrace and a crime against nature. That we put such fear and loathing in our bodies is scary. Once we understood what it was to hold nature in awe, now we are so jaded we do not care what we destroy. The Jewish people had the right idea, they kill the animal in two seconds and without it having felt fear, if possible. That is not what we do. We keep the animal without ever seeing this world and then slaughter it. Go on line and see for yourself the horror that is mankind. When Christ comes back to all of creation, yikes. Sorry to be such a kill joy, but this is for me the worst of the abuses of mankind. Even worse than how we treat each other, for most are killing, or having someone else kill for them which is the same thing and then eating what was slaughtered. Nice to see you, I do read what you write and I do not dissagree with much, just some. I guess you are just a human like me. Do not read the animal testing stuff if you do not have a strong system as it is hard on the heart also. | ||
| sharon (sharon) Intermediate Member Username: sharon Post Number: 288 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.12.31 |
bear (bear)... I did not mean to go on so about the whole meat thing. It is funny because I did not feel that way not long ago. But I am becoming more that way every day. I keep changing and I wonder where it will stop. Will I find myself chained to a tree, could be. Sorry I put it upon you. I will try and not to do so in the future. | ||
| bear (bear) Intermediate Member Username: bear Post Number: 154 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 4.161.238.243 |
No, I agree with the meat thing. In fact, I am truly thinking about veganism. My siter-in-law became one, and she looks and feels great1 | ||
| bear (bear) Intermediate Member Username: bear Post Number: 156 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 4.161.238.243 |
No, I agree with the whole meat thing. I am truly thinking about veganism. My sister-in-law became on a year ago, and she looks and feels great! | ||
| sharon (sharon) Intermediate Member Username: sharon Post Number: 293 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.97.83 |
bear (bear)...I am constantly changing on this whole meat thing. First off I will not say I quit as I made no concious effort to do so, I admit that. I just did, and I thought gee whiz I must really like cows as I can no longer eat them. You should have heard me going on about never giving up chicken, I did whole lip smacking thing, I will never give it up I said over and over again, and then it to was gone. People would ask me if it was bibical and I would say oh No , this has nothing to do with my faith.That was for the first two years. Again I was wrong, for the next thing there it is in black and white on the first page of the bible. Just a month ago I was still saying it does not bother me when other people eat it, hah, that also changed. I am now not really saying anything for I have learned my lesson. I do not know what I may do tomorrow. The good thing is that because I did so I am eating many of the things I did not care for before. I am forced to change those eating habits as well. I did not know that the day I quit eating beef was I day I began this journey. I am not a vegan, but I only eat free range eggs and the such. No more killing for me. I hope you do become one, and I shall pray for such. I know it is a hard thing to quit, but there are many good replacements. If you do let me know and I will tell you of a few things I learned to help with the transition. Or your sister in law could probably help. | ||
| rockrz (rockrz) New member Username: rockrz Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 66.142.185.7 |
I don't test animals, I eat 'em! Tasty when barbecued, with some tators thrown in... | ||
| sharon (sharon) Intermediate Member Username: sharon Post Number: 315 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.81.215 |
rockrz (rockrz)...Welcome to factnet. I will just have the tators if you dont mind, but my husband likes to eat tasty cows and pigs. I would say you are what you eat but then he could say I was a turnip. | ||
| ruger71 (ruger71) New member Username: ruger71 Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 66.139.178.209 |
I love animals they tast great | ||
| sharon (sharon) Intermediate Member Username: sharon Post Number: 373 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 142.177.114.92 |
ruger71...you are an animal, I am sure lions think you taste great. Or maybe not, who knows what you are full of. |
