| Author | Message | ||
     solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 460 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.57.211.201 |
Still breathing, still getting better. I was well enough to go to a General Conference session. Of course, there were the usual crop of obnoxious anti-Christians there. There were also a few Saints there, to keep the peace. One friend of mine was carrying a funny sign: "The Anti's are just JEALOUS" on one side, and on the other it said "If you can't be right, be LOUD" in honor of the guy who was standing 5 feet away shouting. I enjoyed the way the guy shouted stuff at me because my skin is dark, but the best thing was "God put you in that wheelchair because of your being a Mormon!" My friend laughed and said "Yeah, he almost died, you dummy!" He had spent the whole time that weekend laughing at the anti-Mormons who were there. What I don't accept is the offensive things that he said to Gemma and other women who were there, saying that "Mormons dress their young women like hookers. The one female who was with him was wearing jeans and a t-shirt, while Gemma and the others were dressed well, conservatively and modestly. Gemma smiled at him and said "Why would I get my religious doctrine from someone dressed like a bum?" There is something wrong with the mind of someone who would go to a religious meeting with the intent to cause bad feelings. But I liked what Keith said, "This guy thinks that he's the best that God can do!" Anyway, more later, thanks to all of you who prayed for me. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 496 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.72 |
I agree the comments you said were made sounded pretty obnoxious and ungodly. That person does not represent God or me. Glad that you are doing better. We disagree but I don't wish you harm. God bless you. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 461 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: That is something that I have always known about you. We cross swords, not spirits. There were not as many of these people there this time as there were in October, about 25 or so. They made up for it by being louder and more obnoxious. On our side, we had my friend, a guy named Jason, two guys who are there more to get the attention, and one young lady with her boyfriend. The only one who was there the whole time was Keith from what he said. I've known Keith since grade school. He's an interesting guy, and got me into computers in the first place. I could almost believe that he had gotten me into the Church, or that I had gotten him into the Church, except that during the year that we both joined, we were out of contact. I've tried to get him on here, but he is busy with his work. I'm not surprised that he would spend the whole weekend carrying his sign, he's another guy who is alive today because this church is true, and he has noplace better to be than to defend it. I get some of my information leads from him, and many of "my" sound bites are from or inspired by him. | ||
| carlota (carlota) Intermediate Member Username: carlota Post Number: 378 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.193.161.248 |
Solopilot, I am glad you are "still breathing and still getting better". I am sorry you had to deal with some nasty barbs from small minds. Geez, whatever happened to common decency? Forget about political correctness, but insulting someone who is "already down", so to speak (in a wheelchair) is a new low. There is something wrong with the mind of someone who would go to a religious meeting with the intent to cause bad feelings. Well, you can say that again. Unfortunately, it happens all the time and even here on Factnet. This is a direct problem with the belief in "superiority" of one set of beliefs over others. Perhaps it is inevitable. Anyway, sorry you had to deal with that. I am sure that even in a wheelchair you are stronger in your faith than that guy was in his ignorance. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 243 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
SP: It really is good to hear from you, as I think is the general feeling'round here. I wonder whether those non-LDS that post here realise how much harder it is sometimes for us to stand up for what we believe in? As a missionary I had people throwing stone, bricks, metals bars and the like at me, I was spat on, had punches thrown at me, etc. etc. all because of the badge I wore, and that I chose to stand as a witness for Christ. Now I am not really comlpaining, as at 6'6" and 245 pounds I can hold my own, but never did. As a missionary for the church however, it just wouldn't be right to be returning aggression with agression. I suppose the hardest things to accept were when those who proclaimed to be "true Christians", would do there best to belittle the message I had to share, but also belitlle me and my cmpanions for our Faith in Christ. I suppose that is the same as here - there are those who do honestly want to know the answers behind the questions they have, but then there are others who forget the respect that they ought to show all by the unifying belief we have with in our Saviour. I am offended by those who mock and intentionally misrepresent what we believe. That cannot be the action of a true Christian, yet such accuse us of failing to meet the standard they are so incapable of achieving or maintaining (with their current mind set at least). Though I see the funny side of your experience very much, and consider, as well you may, those who show such public signs as the least dangerous of such objectors, I wonder if they truly beieve that standing in Temple Square will bring all those Mormons to their senses, or if it's to get their 15 minutes of fame on the early evening news? Though I chide GC a fair bit more often than I should, I am sure she gets no less than she attempts to mete out. As I have said to her before, it would be far more fulfilling if we were able to engage in proper discussion on LDS doctrine that is usually misunderstood by others, instead of the bear baiting that seems to dominate these threads - start at the begining of something and discuss to the end would be a refreshing change. Again, good to read you back, and I hope you are up to full strength soon. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 654 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.31 |
Joesdad, that sounded a lot like whining to me. Are you obsessed with gc? Can't seem to get me off your mind. Sorry, not interested. You are a bore. And I am definitely not into the plurality thing. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 655 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.169 |
I'm sorry. I shouldn't have said that, even though I was thinking it. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) New member Username: steelsword Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Joesdad , i honor your commitment to your LDS faith. I stood up for it for 23 years myself, but after serious research decided Christ was my Personal Savior, & not just from the grave, but for Eternal life. My sister said how could you leave , Your family history is here & your Great Grandfather started the branch here. I told her that was all great about the family history, but Great Grandpa was not going to save me!! Sorry - I know how you feel, i honestly do, but again it is my testimoney that Joseph Smith Preached a false gospel. I do not beleive that GC says that you will take the place of God, but that you will hope to progress to (A) God. I was never taught that Adam was God at my branch,& i don't beleive such doctrine is taught in the LDS church Now, but do i beleive Brigham Young taught this , YES. The history of the church says he did. he even had confrontations over it. Isiah: Says I am the Lord God, There were no GODS created before me ,AN neither will there be after me. I wish you good luck on progressing to become a god. I will Pray that you come to know the one triune GOD. GOD Bless, Steel | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 244 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: Thanks for the honesty and thoughts. As you may have read on other threads, I am the only member of my family active in the church. My mother & 3 sisters all joined before me, but fell away within 2 years, my mum could never give up the cancer sticks, well never really wanted to, and when she stopped going they all did (they were only in their early teens by then). I could see clearly, and know now from conversations with her that it was much more a social thing for her. I have a memory of seeing one of those old BoM with the Gold Maroni on the front at the bottom of the stairs in a house we lived in when I was 5 or so. I never knew why that stood out as such a strong memory until I was in my late teens and found out what the book was. By then I had already joined the church. I have had far too many real spiritual experiences to allow me to deny the truthfulness of the Gospel as taught in the LDS church. When I say real, I do not mean that I THAUGHT or BELIEVED I was being guided, helped, warned by the spirit, but that I KNEW. This being counterbalanced by also having had strong experiences of the adversary, so I knew and still know the difference between the two. There are so many things of a doctinal nature glibly referred to and attacked on pages such as this, that the writer of them obviously has not experienced being a faithful mameber of the church (this is in general and in no way meaning you personally). Again thank you for your honesty, especially regarding the couple of doctrinal issues yu mention, as I have said on other occassions, there are many who are unable to deal with their own decisions to leave the church, so lie about it and attack it for that reason. Why you left the church is obviously only your business. I have heard of instances where a person leaving the church has been followed by their being ignored by members and family - that IS NOT the way these people should behave, but by showing forth an increase in love towards that person (who may then complian about it, but you just can't win sometimes!  As an aside, I just want to mention what the difference is between having your name removed from the churches records, and excommunication. Simply, you must commit a sin for the latter to hapen (obviously not the day to day things each of us do despite ourselves). The court case(s) to ahch you referred in fact were to do with people who were dealt with by the church (in the first case the Chruch of Christ NOT LDS Church)and excommunicated, but the person had before the hearing sent a "resignation" letter to the church, i.e. they had already asked to leave BEFORE they were told they were exed. The ruling being that the person had a constitutional right to "resign" their membership first, and it was wrong for the church to ignore that in favour of a harsher "punishment". At the end of the day, if a person asks for their name to be removed it will be, without excommunication being mentioned. It may take a while, as most dealing with these requests understand the importance of the request and that it really should not be dealt with lightly, as they also understand the blessings that will be lost, not for any numbers related issues. | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 |
Solopilot, Welcome back! BTW What is the General Conference? Joesdad can answer. (I'm still swamped, but hope to get some posts to answer JD questions before the long.) EGK | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 250 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
egk: Simlpy its a meeting of the whole church, which happens twice a year. Obviously we cannot all fit into one building, so we can if we so wish travel to SLC, or as most of us do, go to our local ward or stake buildings to see a sattelite transmission of the meetings, or listen to it over the internet on the day, or watch a video on the lds.org webpage afterwards - you can go have a look for yourself. It is of especial importance to us all as the proceedings are conducted by the President of the Church, who is a Prophet of God. It is made up of several meetings over 2 days, meetings of the church's auxilliaries, and then finally a General Conference. All meetings consist of spiritual and uplifting talks, with hymns sung by MOTAB or one of the churches other choirs. The talks all appear in the next edition of the Ensign (the churches magazine) issued after conference. BTW, conference can be heard in many different languages, to allow just about the whole world to listen to the messages. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 674 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.17 |
I checked out the 'Ensign' on the web today. The last articles were from 1997. There was a good article about 'denominations'. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Junior Member Username: nulla Post Number: 34 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Do you have the link for that. I did a search but could not find. thanks Nulla | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 675 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.210 |
www.ensignfair.org/ | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 676 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.210 |
Another site of interest is www.helpingmormons.org/sexabuse.htm Very Disturbing! | ||
| nulla (nulla) Junior Member Username: nulla Post Number: 35 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Your help in supplying the links is appreciated Godschild Nulla | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 252 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Nulla: Try going to LDS.org, the official LDS church site, there's plenty there to keep you busy BTW, do you take Nulla from the Nulla Nulla (fighting stick thingy)? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 679 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.58 |
joesdad, since you brought up the subject of our names here, you never answered my question (after your wife's short appearance) whether your name suggests 'god'? If not, why did your wife ask the question? | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 463 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Carlota: Thanks for the kind words. The difference is that FACTNet is here for the purposes of debate, and everyone here came here for that. That's why we can grab each other by the throat and shake to make our point, and nobody gets his or her feelings hurt. General Conference is a special kind of church meeting (think of it as two days of sermons) and to have a load of bigots show up just to cause trouble -- and to do so in the name of Christ -- is a whole different story. For these guys, it's a business. They have their own photographers go with them (with real expensive equipment, according to friends who know that stuff) to shoot pics and video, then they spend months going from one church to another showing how they "fought Mormonism right on Satan's doorstep" -- and passing the plate for donations to continue their "ministry." The guy who screamed at Gemma and I hadn't missed any meals in a LONG time. So many of these people are paid to be out there that they think that the handful of Saints who are counter-picketing are also doing it for money. My friend told me of one conversation between sessions in which he and an anti-Mormon chatted on the way to get lunch or something. The anti asked what he was being paid, and wouldn't believe that he was doing it "like all ministry in the Church," not only free but in fact paying for his sign out of his own pocket. Joesdad: Thanks, it's good to be able to rejoin the fray, even though not as strongly as I wish. One thing that always gets to me is the way these people read out of pamphlets and even books full of distortions and outright lies, then expect every Mormon to be able to answer (on their feet) for some obscure, out-of-context comment from 170 years ago. Very few of these folks can tell you what their own church teaches in doctrine, but they imagine that they know everything about ours. And, of course, not one has ever attempted to prove that they particular set of beliefs is the true and complete one. Usually, when you ask them what church they belong to, they say "I'm a Christian!" and won't let you pin them down any more than that. What I REALLY love is the folks who get upset when you call them "Protestant," even though the roots of their church are clearly in the Protestant movements. If they aren't Protestants, then why do they use the Protestant Bible, which is directly derived from the Catholic Bible? EGK: Joesdad described it pretty well. Temple Square, the center of Salt Lake City, is a complete city block, surrounded by a wall and with gates in all four sides. The Square was originally bounded by North Temple, West Temple, South Temple and Main Street. Some years back, the Church bought Main Street back from the city and built a plaza which joins Temple Square to the block to the east, which has the Church offices, Relief Society Building (RS is the oldest women's organization in the world) gardens and fountains. Conference used to be in the Tabernacle (which is on Temple Square), and those who came but couldn't get in spread blankets on the lawns and listen to the loudspeakers or even bring battery-powered TVs. Eventually, we had to build the Conference Center (aka "MegaTab") to fill the needs at Conference time. This building takes up the entire block north of Temple Square (across North Temple Street). There have been Conference protestors outside of Temple Square for decades, patrolling the various gates, but now that those attending the actual sessions must cross North Temple, the antis have several "choke points" which nearly all attendees must pass. The truly obnoxious ones can be found at these spots, and finally the city had to set up rules for the protestors. In certain places, nobody is allowed to stand (they can walk) during the times between sessions, thus to keep traffic flowing (you can imagine that nearly 25,000 people going to one building each session makes this necessary). Some of the antis there are literally and openly trying to incite violence, which means more money in the plate from each of these churches that they tour while collecting for their "ministry." Showing video or photos of "this child of Satan attacking me for telling the truth!" has probably been worth another $10,000 to the guy who managed to provoke a Saint two years ago. They don't show the incitement, just the result, of course. Antis fondle women's underwear in public while making crude comments. They tie the Book of Mormon on string and drag it around on the ground, all the while proclaiming that if any Mormon really thought it was the word of God, he would try to take it away. They will see a father crossing the street with his young daughters, then demand to know which of the daughters the father molested the night before, or are they his wives? One shouted that Sister Hinckley, who died last November, was in screaming in Hell, and then implied homosexual activity on the part of President Hinckley. When the missionary sisters sing on Temple Square, the antis shout and sing loudly to try to disrupt them. All in all, they come from all over the country, simply to destroy the spiritual and pleasant atmosphere which hundreds of thousands of people from around the world have come to enjoy. . . .and these people claim to speak for Christ. GC and the others in here simply lie, distort, and take out of context, all in good, clean, knock-down-drag-out discussion. I don't think that any of them are involved in the screaming and provocation. That's the big difference. As far as the Journal of Discourses is concerned, they was never scripture, the reports (often thirdhand) were rarely if ever verified by the people who supposedly made them, and they were never anything more than a "social connection" for Saints in England, to let them know what was going on in Zion. They were privately published, for profit of the publisher. Nothing can be considered doctrinal if only found in the JD. GC and others: Try www.desnews.com and go down the left-side menu until you see LDS News -- General Conference. Even better, go to www.ldscatalog.com and you can buy DVD sets of Conference, with translation into a bunch of languages, for about $15 each. A set is all of the sessions of a particular Conference, such as October 2004. GC: The site is supposed to be disturbing, and paint Mormons in the worst possible light. Why do you consider it worth mentioning that they succeeded in disturbing you, when you were already disturbed about Mormons before you went there? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 680 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.58 |
Solopilot, perhaps now you can answer the question often posed and not answered: re: your statement above; If they aren't Protestants, then why do they use the Protestant Bible, which is directly derived from the Catholic Bible? Mormons continue to use the 'Protestant' Bible. Why? Are you really 'protestants'? The site I suggested shows more evidence, which is of course disturbing, about the mormon way to 'Christianity'. It is only one more time the Mormons acted in ways that are not 'Christian'. And yet you would rather take it out on the writers of History than to question the incidents themselves. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 681 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.58 |
I could say you are attempting to use the actions of a few people who attack the mormons at the conference to put the worst possible light on all nonmormons. I do not know people who act in that manner. You may have 'lied' about what actually happened, or twisted what was actually said. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 682 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.58 |
"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." The problem with your view of what you say happened could have been by atheists or communists, as far as your evidence shows. By what standard do you hold the 'world' when your past standards include the murder of innocent men, women, and children who were trying to live their lives in peace and freedom, just as the mormons were. Their choices were taken from them by mormons. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 683 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.58 |
I already went to the www.lds.org site and reread what Elder Lynn G. Robbins of the seventy said: Tithing--A Commandment Even for the Destitute Anyone interested can read it for themselves, by all means don't take my word for it. If the jd was only a source for social discussion for people in England, did an enemy of the mormon church publish it? Or did the mormons? You make it sound like what it said was unimportant for people not living in mormon territory. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 684 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.58 |
Do you still deny that members of your church are paid for their services. I have also read about accusations of Apostle Hinkley's homosexual activities, but did not bring it up here because I do not like to offend homosexuals. I am curious as to why you did.... | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 313 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
godchild Another site of interest is _____… Very Disturbing! Godchild, IMO this is one of your worst posts to date. Every religion has its share of hate sites on the web. To find them and hold them up as the norm for a religion is in bad taste and dishonest. I’d expect such nonsense from TrentWoodward, but not from you. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 685 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.94 |
It is responses like yours that allow terrible things to continue. If they are brought to light, then people can make their decision about it, and not before. I am very sorry about mormon history, but I did not 'dream' it. Christains accept that there have been terrible things happen in the name of God, but we realize by ignoring or denying cannot allow change. If there is a connection between mormonism, satanism, and the occult, people should know. If there is not, there there is nothing to fear. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 687 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.101 |
This article was 'very disturbing' because it is alleged to be happening now. If if were considered only vicious lies, why is the church investigating the allegations? If Yaakov read the article, he would realize it was written by a mormon, not by someone trying to attack the mormon church. | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 316 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
It is responses like yours that allow terrible things to continue. If they are brought to light, then people can make their decision about it, and not before. Oh look! Here's another site of interest. Very disturbing! Pedophiles in the Church}} Let's bring the problems to light! (Message edited by Yaakov on April 16, 2005) | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 689 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.165 |
Yaakov, if you think the mormon church deserves your respect, that is your choice. For years, things like this have been covered up or glossed over. It is similar to what has happened in the Catholic Church with the molestation of young boys by priests. Do you think that should NOT have been brought to light? When any organization that says they are founded on God, they must be willing to allow problems of this magnitude to be fixed. My own daughter was very much affected as a young girl when her best friend's mormon stepfather was molesting her and when it was brought to the attention of the church, the daughter was forced to leave her mother's house and the man was left there with the girl's younger sister. This was done on the advice given by the church and nothing was ever spoken of it again. Do not suggest to me that this is a simple abboration and therefore should be forgotten? You make your decisions. I will make mine. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Junior Member Username: nulla Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot, These people who are protesting are are doing so in a public place in a country that has fought for democracy. I do not agree with violence or personal verbal abuse. You and your fellow mormons should be looking at what would make people go to such lengths to vent their anger and take the time out of their life to make such demonstrations. Solopilot your wrote; “Some of the antis there are literally and openly trying to incite violence, which means more money in the plate from each of these churches” Which churches? Were there arrests for violence, if so how many, if not why? It is your church that is claiming to be christian yet finding it difficult to walk hand in hand with other christian beliefs. Is this happening at Vatican City? I would be asking myself why if I am in a religion that is promoting Christian beliefs find myself and my church the target of protesters Remember Jesus himself demonstrated protest against the way that the Jewish establishment was conducting itself. He also stated verbally why. These peoples are protesters who are directing their anger at your church, some are extremists going by what you have said and should be labeled as such. By calling them anti mormons you are generalizing and then painting a picture that all those who do not believe in your faith are all the same. If anti mormons are those that do not believe in your faith then you are anti Christian for not believing in non mormons faith. You also wrote: GC and the others in here simply lie, Again Solopilot you generalize, by stating that the first 4 words means everyone, does it not, including mormons if you take it word for word. If you just mean all non mormons then that still includes myself. Please show me my lies that I simply make . If not then the sentence is a simple lie or false statement made by you. Maybe you had better try and word things a bit more differently and it would not offend non mormons who may choose to post on an open forum that is there for open discussion . It is easy to see you are upset that not everyone agrees with your beliefs and that they would go to such extremes to show it. Your church goes out and knocks on the doors of others attempting to spread your word. By doing so are you showing these people that what they now believe in is wrong and that what you believe in is right? Are you trying to convert and say your church is correct, the only way and what ever else you may use to try to convert. If you feel that what your church is doing in making such claims is correct then I too feel that what we as non mormons do by coming here or on other boards etc is correct as well. Plus I feel it is a democratic right to be able to protest. Mormons have chosen to be mormons in your democratic country and people have the right to protest are doing so as per your laws of the land. You need to find the real causes of these protests and why people are protesting against your church and its leaders. If the extremists can be identified and by what you have posted you all know who they are then you and your church should ask them and their church or organization why and confront them and their issues in a peaceful manner and protest against the way in which they protest. If what they do is in breach of the law of your land then report them to the police. Nulla | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 694 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.115 |
joesdad, you told me to show where James Talmage stated that the Father God did not deal with man directly and personally since the fall. See: Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, pgs.11-27 I guess the church doesn't consider a book titled Doctrines of Salvation, scripture. So what is it? Just guy talk? Back to the mormon belief in salvation by works: (which for some strange reason solopilot now decides to deny): Pearl of Great Price, Articles of Faith, #3 Joseph F. Smith; Through the atonement all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Christians are taught in the Holy Bible, we are saved by grace, and not of works, lest any man should boast. In other words, we want to please God for his graciousness to us, and not to please men. We try not to let our right hand know what our left hand does. It is not pleasing to God if we tell the world about our great works. They will see it without our saying so. The meek shall inherit the earth. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 465 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
GC: If you had really been a Mormon, you would know that we don't only use the Bible which the Protestants use. ;) There's a difference between non-Mormons and anti-Mormons. There are differences between various anti-Mormons. Those who were outside of Conference are no credit to the rest of you. Members are paid for a lot of things. One thing that we aren't paid to do is preach. The closest that we come is paying university instructors who teach religious history. I know that anti-Mormons are big on rumor (and really good at starting them). When you promote obscene rumors about the Prophet, however, you go from discussion into venom, and I'm not interested in snakes. Go bite someone else, I have too many other things to do than read any more of your garbage. I've never seen in the Bible where Christians are supposed to gossip, lie, provoke or be obscene in their treatment of others. If that's what it takes to be what you call a Christian, I'm glad that I'm Christ's kind of Christian. You are lying. You know that you are lying, I know that you are lying, and those who have been here long enough to recognize your style know that you are lying. You are also a waste of my time and effort. I have recently been reminded how little of the first I might have, and so I'm not going to waste the second on you any more. Have a nice day. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 734 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.90 |
Mormons are offended by reports about their prophet's personal life. So offended, in fact, that they make false, unsubstantiated accusations against the persons relating such things. The question should be; are the leaders of the mormon church held above reproach? Do the followers hold them in such high esteem that followers do so with blind adoration because of their title. Christians realize the ONLY man who lived a perfect, sinless life is Christ. Mormons wish to follow other gods. So be it. If solopilot had really been a christian previous to joining the mormon church, he would know this. So who lies? No matter what anyone thinks of me, the fact remains the mormon church is a cult. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 469 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Nulla: You are correct, they have the right to protest peacefully on public property, and you won't find anywhere that I said otherwise. However, there is a difference between peaceful protest and attempting to provoke violence. In October of 2003, these attempts were successful, in that a new member of the Church was provoked. I don't remember if there was an arrest, but the SLC official website includes a link to the City Attorney's guidelines on free speech and "fighting words." One reason for there not being more incidents is my friend Keith, who does his best to make the attendees laugh instead of paying attention to what the antis are shouting. Several other people have started doing the same thing. These people lose their power when people laugh at them. I don't know which churches offhand, I have no real interest in this information. If you like, I will find out some of them for you. Why, do you want to go put money in the plate? ;) I don't know which one of the thousands of different Christian churches you attend, but there is some reason that you consider it "more Christian" than the one down the block. Whatever that reason may be, it is a way in which your church doesn't "walk hand in hand with other Christian churches." My church simply has more reasons that it is more Christian than the one down the block. My church does consider other Christian churches to be Christian, to one extent or another. I KNOW why my Christian church is the target of others who claim to be Christians. It's the same reason that my ancestors were enslaved, raped and murdered by people who claimed to be Christians -- once you can decide that you are the elect of God, and someone else isn't, then anything you do to them is okay. The days when it was acceptable to hate for skin color are over, so the only way that these people can feel superior is over religion. That's why the increase in religious intolerance coincides with the increase in anti-discrimination laws. Nulla, these people ARE anti-Mormons. That's why they are there, and some of them have been doing this for decades. I'm glad that you consider the things that they are saying and doing to be beyond reasonability, but they are antis. If you don't like sharing the label with them, that's your problem and the solution is in your own hands. One lie that you made was to cut off the sentence, making it mean something that I didn't say. The whole line was: "GC and the others in here simply lie, distort, and take out of context, all in good, clean, knock-down-drag-out discussion." When you attempt to change my meaning so that you can condemn me for what you claim I said, you are lying. Period. Gee, I'm sorry that I didn't specifically say "GC and the other ANTI-MORMONS in here . . ." but I figured that anyone bright enough to engage in this discussion in the first place would have remembered the paragraph before that sentence. Mainstream Christianity went out and KICKED DOORS IN so that your religious forebears could convert my religious forebears, either with the Bible or with the gun. They STOLE my homeland, having come in the name of Christ. They raped, murdered and committed arson in the name of Christ. They thought that they had a God-given right to OWN MY ANCESTORS and FORCE them to think a certain way. Don't whine to me about our people knocking on doors to peacefully spread a message (or leave if you don't want to talk). BTW, the United States is not a democracy, it's a republic. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 55 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Solopilot If you wish to split hairs on the meaning of democratic, democracy and Republic for my explanation for a meaning of freedom, for your info I understand the USA is a Republic. Democracy is widely used as you know. George Bush; "The roots of our democracy can be traced to England, and to its Parliament -- and so can the roots of this organization. In June of 1982, President Ronald Reagan spoke at Westminster Palace and declared, the turning point had arrived in history. He argued that Soviet communism had failed, precisely because it did not respect its own people -- their creativity, their genius and their rights.” No need to preach to the converted. Should I say you have a democratic right or Republican right, in your democratic country , or, in your Republican country. I do take you point that the USA is a Republic. Nulla | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 56 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Solopilot: "Mainstream Christianity went out and KICKED DOORS IN so that your religious forebears could convert my religious forebears, either with the Bible or with the gun. They STOLE my homeland, having come in the name of Christ. They raped, murdered and committed arson in the name of Christ. They thought that they had a God-given right to OWN MY ANCESTORS and FORCE them to think a certain way. Don't whine to me about our people knocking on doors to peacefully spread a message (or leave if you don't want to talk). " Apart from the fact that you most likely would not have found mormonism, for those who committed such acts I and other Christians do not agree with what has been done. Have I not said so regarding Australias history. This does not mean I agreed with what happened nor does it mean I will label all Christians as though they all committed these crimes. By whom and when were these crimes that were commited declared as being done so in the name of Christ. If you were aware of these crimes being done in the name of christ, then my friend, tell me why would you become have become a christian. Is it because you now forgive them for how they sinned then its praise to the lord. I was stating that people have the right in a democracy to protest and such things. If you wish to promote your beliefs by door knocking I to have the right to show my beliefs on a forum. Solopilot I have read through these threads that the lds moves with the times. Tell me which churches are knocking on doors as part of their churches doctrine in today’s USA. Here in Australia it is the lds and the Jehovah Witness's.. How would it be if it was done by every section of all religions. It would be like unwelcomed spam for many people. The Krishnas here in Melbourne Australia were banned from doing daily chants as a group through the city centre and now have to apply for a permit to make such demonstrations. This was due to complaint from people that a religion was being forced upon people in public places. Those Krishnas not in the chant but dressed in normal everday clothes would hand out pamphlets, free books. Now they have purchased restaurants, one for cheap vegetarian all you can eat meals and the other very good meals. People come on the own free will to eat and take the books and pamphlets on offer. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Solopilot Re your remarks I cut and paste to distort the truth. I will post what you said in full "GC and the others in here simply lie, distort, and take out of context, all in good, clean, knock-down-drag-out discussion. I don't think that any of them are involved in the screaming and provocation. That's the big difference. " Now what does simply lie distort and take out of context mean and to whom does it refer to in this text. I being part of the others means me I replied. Please show me my lies that I simply make . If not then the sentence is a simple lie or false statement made by you. Maybe you had better try and word things a bit more differently and it would not offend non mormons who may choose to post on an open forum that is there for open discussion . Maybe “Some people who come here simply lie” would be better. Solopilot you may think I take things to literal, I may think your an insinuator if statements are made by either party and withdrawn or reworded when the point is risen I see no harm. If I were to convert to your team tomorrow or vice versa then we would not be arguing but cheering each other. I hold no personal ill feelings against you or other mormons. I am against your doctrine. may the best team win :-)) Nulla (Message edited by nulla on April 21, 2005) | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 486 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Nulla: When you excerpted, you changed the meaning of what I said, then condemned me based on the new meaning of the sentence. This is what we call lying by omission. Yes, "Some people who come here simply lie" would be not only better, but more accurate. The best "team" won't win. If salvation is a sport, it's an "individual event." ;) It doesn't matter how persuasive one side or the other of this argument is. It doesn't matter who has the best quotes, the faster cut-and-paste, the cleared debate style . . .all that matters in the end is what you believe. The doctrines of my church MAKE SENSE. The hold up to the question "Why would God do it that way?" when doctrines of "mainstream" Christianity don't. Take it or leave it, you still must live with it. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 747 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.173 |
solopilot finds great pleasure in listening to other people's conversations. How does he know that these men were 'protestants'? They could have been mormons for all he knows. Most mormons think the kjv is the only version. It is the only one they are allowed to consider. Would he rather they had been talking about the latest ballgame? I think sp embellishes his accounts. That was not the first time. Can he be believed? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 264 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Now THAT is the funniest thing you've posted, I like it, no an ounce of subtlety - you are a classic. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 59 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot the best team is truth. you wrote The doctrines of my church MAKE SENSE. The hold up to the question "Why would God do it that way?" when doctrines of "mainstream" Christianity don't. Take it or leave it, you still must live with it. Why would God do it that way. Which way? Nulla | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 490 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Nulla: When you look at any doctrine, if you ask yourself why God would do it that way, in Mormonism the doctrines make sense. In other Christian churches, the question is often unanswered, and many of the answer just plain make no sense. Of instance, mainstream Christian doctrine holds that we were created either as pets, or as sycophants. Mainstream Christian doctrine dodges the question of why an omnipotent God would give us laws which he knew we would break, thus needing a Savior to make up for our sins. LDS doctrine holds that we were created to progress and learn, and some of that learning includes being give rules, breaking them, learning the consequences, and having an elder brother who makes up for it and provide an example of mercy and love. Mainstream Christian doctrine holds that God has perserved the Bible as 100% accurate, inerrant and complete, but avoids the question of why God wouldn't then preserve the original manuscripts for our use. LDS doctrine is that no book is perfect, and that we are all expected to study, ponder and pray to understand, rather than following the Pharisees into jots and tittles. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 772 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.122 |
I'll ask the question again. The Bible says Satan, Lucifer, the devil was a fallen angel. Does the mormon church believe Jesus was an angel. And since mormons teach Jesus is our brother, are we angels? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 773 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.122 |
Isaiah 14:12 How are thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations. 13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;I will be like the most High. 15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. In the bom index under definition of Lucifer, it says: also see devil. 2 Nephi- devil is father of lies. Shall be thrust down to hell. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot, can you explain further on this paragraph please. Mainstream Christian doctrine holds that God has perserved the Bible as 100% accurate, inerrant and complete, but avoids the question of why God wouldn't then preserve the original manuscripts for our use. Nulla | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 505 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.57 |
Nulla: Mainstream Christians often say that the Bible is "preserved by God" -- but if the copies of copies of copies are so important that God keeps any error from cropping in over 1,600 years, why didn't God preserve any of the original manuscripts as they came from the hands of the Apostles? There is no "chain of evidence" between the Apostles and the oldest manuscripts known to exist -- and the Catholic priests who compiled the Bible didn't even have the oldest manuscripts to work from. There is no proof whatsoever that any of the Apostles ever had anything to do with any of the books or letters of the New Testament. So what it comes down to is how someone can have faith that the Bible is "preserved" as a compliation, when the original letters were not preserved. Mainstream Christian doctrine can't answer this question, and doesn't even dodge it well. LDS doctrine does answer it, in a way which makes sense. | ||
| inkorrekt (inkorrekt) Junior Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 198.243.2.253 |
SOLOPILOT:"So what it comes down to is how someone can have faith that the Bible is "preserved" as a compliation, when the original letters were not preserved"""" I am very surprised that you believe this. Of all the sacred books, Bible is the only book, which has supportive evidence of 25,000 pieces of documents. If I write something about myself, it becomes questionable. However, if a reputable person wrote about me, then this writing has credibility. Josephus was a contemporary Jewish Historian.He was not even a Christian. He had written about Jesus christ, His miracles and His crucifixion as well as about Pilate. The Archealogical evidence for the Bible is over whelming. No one can deny this. Many knigs tried to destroy the Bible. They all failed. The more they tried, faster it spread. Those who tried to disprove the Bible have all become very strong believers in Christ.So, the bible is real. SOLOPILOT, your Jesus and the JEsus Christ of the Bible are two different persons. They are not the same. Your Jesus Christ is the son of Mary who had sexual intercourse with a God from another planet known as Kolb. Your God's brother was Lucifer, the Satan. However, JEsus Christ of the authentic Bible was conceived by the Holy Spirit. This is in total contrast to the Claims of the Mormon Church. There is no evidence for anything about the Golden plates, Joseph Smith claims to have found out. Mormon claims have only been supported by Brigham Young University and Mormon Theologians. No one else supports the claims of the Mormon Church. So, come out of it. You need the real Jesus Christ in your heart. Please contact Sandra Tanner. She will help you find out the truth. | ||
| nulla (nulla) Intermediate Member Username: nulla Post Number: 250 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Intestinal Microbial Flora Helicobacter pylori, a chronic gastric pathogen of human beings, can be found in virtually every human population group H. pylori strains can be genetically divided into seven populations that exhibit distinct geographical distributions Native Americans have the same strain found in East Asians | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 57 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 207.69.137.12 |
For they are Blind and can not see. | ||
| planetkram (planetkram) New member Username: planetkram Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.205.46.16 |
I'm Mormon and I dont want to be a God - I just want to follow christ and try to be a better person than I was the day before and do good to others. If in the end I stand before christ and rewarded my eternal glory an abandoned shoe store, then so be it - - if Im given exhaltation and glory beyond all description....I'll take that too. All you people worried abotu what you're getting are missing the point. - Like my boy, Penn state football Coach, Joe Paterno says, "do all the small things right and the big stuff will take care of themselves." All you Mormon-haters really need to re-focus your attentions on groups that need criticizing; like........ terrorists, racists, people who flip you off in traffic, mean people, hate groups, criminals who rob you, child molesters, drunkards who crash and kill innocent people, the IRS, drug dealers, RAP stars whos lyrics say its "ok" to slap biotches and score with hoes, animal abusers.... I think we can all agree that even though you may not agree with the doctrine of the LDS church, that Mormons are still the good guys - Mormons are good people. |
