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old_watchman (old_watchman)
New member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Thursday, April 07, 2005 - 11:06 am: | 
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In the February, 2005 issue of Christianity Today Magazine, there was a feature article on an intentional community in Elm Mott, Texas, the Homestead Heritage. The pictures and description of life on the land painted an idyllic picture. However, the reality of life within this group may not be what it appears. I would like to share with you the other side of the story.
To begin, Homestead Heritage may have within its fellowship many Christians who attend, but, the beliefs of Homestead Heritage are squarely outside of orthodox Christianity. They disguise their true teachings from outsiders and inquirers. Del Barcus, a former member of the group, recounted the difficulty he had trying to learn of the group’s beliefs when he and his family first encountered them, “We would ask questions that we knew to ask and we would get an answer that was just a big answer. We just didn’t know exactly what the answer was when we got finished.” Another former member recently remarked, “They know you have to be at a deep level of trust and submission before you would accept the doctrines. We were told it would be a stumbling block to read them (referring to the deeper teachings) before we were ready.”
The doctrines of Homestead Heritage are both anti-Trinitarian and anti-Grace. Similar to their “Jesus Only” oneness Pentecostal roots, leaders of Homestead Heritage deny the doctrine of the Trinity and teach a works salvation rather than salvation by grace through faith alone. In their book, The Bedrock, Blair Adams and Joel Stein make this statement, “…we recognize that the views that culminated in the Trinitarian doctrine began circulating in the church during the second and possibly even the first centuries. The source of this view, however, was never scriptural; it always stemmed from confusion that entered the church from pagan philosophy or religion.” (p. 50). They continue, “Since salvation is Oneness with the God who is One, confusion about His nature led also to confusion about the meaning and purpose of salvation.” (p.55). What do they believe about salvation?
The salvation of Homestead Heritage is one of works. In a secret document meant only for the eyes of candidates for their highest level “constitutional membership” the followers are told that salvation, “…is just like buying land on an installment contract: you can live on the land, husband it, bring forth fruit from it and say it’s yours--as long as you keep making the payment…. If we fail to walk on, we will fall in the wilderness of unbelief and miss our inheritance with Jesus and be literally “repossessed” by the world and its ruler….” (p.11).
Another issue raised by former members is that of spiritual abuse. One family had been invited to attend their first Sunday service (you may have to attend the public Friday night meetings for years before you are deemed worthy to attend the Sunday services). According to this family, the service had gone on for hours and the man, a diabetic, was lapsing into insulin shock. After the meeting he was given some juice by a group leader and asked how he felt about the sermon by Blair Adam, the group’s founding apostle. He recounted that through the haze of his illness he could only remember feeling afraid. That was equated as a lack of submission to authority because he did not trust his elders. His family was forbidden to return to Sunday meetings.
The secret Constitution on Membership makes submission to the authority of Homestead leaders the mark of one within the family of faith and virtually a requirement of salvation: “Of course, as a child, God admonishes you to `honor your father and mother,’ that is, honor those in discipling authority over you… So the central issue lies not so much in our immaturity… but in our attitude toward authority: if we resent it, we shall remain slaves, remain on the first level of discipleship needing guardians everywhere we go…and if you do not honor authority in your heart, then you are not of the family of faith despite all outward appearances. (p.13).
There are three levels of belonging in Homestead Heritage. The levels are Situational, Transitional, and Constitutional. The first level is that of a slave. This is equated with the court of the Gentiles in the Old Testament Temple. The second is that of disciple and is entered by water baptism. You are now inside the walls of covenant but you are an infant. Homestead Heritage teaches that water baptism is a requirement for salvation. The third level is that of Constitutional member, which means one who is a “`mature’ corporate man, where every joint does its work in love, is the Constitutional Order of Koinonia Communities [the former name of the group]. This must be everyone’s desire, for as Jesus said, `By standing firm you will save yourselves’ (Luke 21:19. By learning to `stand firm’ becoming constitutional in your loyalty, submission and manner of life, you therefore press to `receive the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (I Peter 1:9).” (Ibid., p.40). Only Constitutional members are mature sons of God and fully saved.
If a Transitional or Constitutional member should leave the fellowship they are guilty of the unpardonable sin. They will loose their salvation: “Our knowledge of the truth at this particular point makes betrayal of [the Homestead Heritage] covenant irreparable.” (Ibid., p. 38). These people are called “betrayers of covenant.” The first page of the secret Membership Constitution says, “Jesus warns, `many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,’ yet as Mathew also records, ``He who stands firm to the end will be saved’ (Matt. 10:22; 24:13). To `stand firm,’ to stand faithful to our covenant, to resist this spirit of betrayal, should then become our goal, at least if our goal is salvation.”
The doctrines and practices of the leaders of Homestead Heritage are a serious deviation from traditional, orthodox, biblical Christianity. Watchman Fellowship has much evidence within our files to document this claim. We have also received many cries for help from damaged families through the years. Paul warned of those who would preach another Jesus, a different spirit, and a different gospel” (2 Cor. 11: A former member, Francie Barcus, had this to say about the leaders of Homestead Heritage, “At first they become your conscience. Then they become your Holy Spirit and if you stay long enough they will become your savior.”
Jesus said, “beware of false prophets,” we cannot beware unless we are first aware. |
rbeechner (rbeechner)
New member
Username: rbeechner
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 65.150.8.127
| | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 12:06 am: |
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Mrs. Barcus's assessment is correct. In my years at Homestead Heritage, I sat through meeting after meeting in which the memberhsip was drilled with the message that submission to the authority of the leaders was everything. It became salvation itself. The leaders (Adams in particular) referred to themselves as "Christ come in human flesh," and their dictates controlled all of the life of the church, in everything from doctrines about the nature of the Godhead all the way down to the style of socks worn by the ladies. Nothing in life was beyond the reach of their word, and their word was law. In the end I became so untrusting of my own conscience that I couldn't even do something so simple as plan a family camping trip without "running it by the brothers"--that is--getting the permission of the leaders. My mind became a swirl of confusion. Sometimes I'd approach my group leader and say, "I believe God is telling me to do such and such." He'd get a concerned look on his face and say, "You'd better pray some more about that." He was shrewd, as were the other leaders; he wouldn't say, "Oh no, God didn't tell you that. Here's what He really wants you to do...." He'd just tell me to go pray some more. But his meaning was obvious. Everything from the inflection of his voice to the look on his face to his very body language said I was dead wrong and that I'd better reconsider. So I'd go pray some more, and eventually, because I feared the unspoken threat of a public rebuke, I'd finally "hear from God" exactly what my group leader wanted me to "hear" in the first place. This is what was called "walking in the spirit" at Homestead Heritage, and over time I got pretty good at it. I became adept at reading the subtle intonations of the leaders' voices, at interpreting their pious and grave expressions, and at parsing the spiritual keywords they used in meetings. I learned to play their game, keep my head down, say the right things, and stay out of trouble. There was no other alternative, for I--and the other members-- were taught that the words of the leaders were the very words of God. The leaders, we were taught, spoke with God's full authority to discipline the members and mold every aspect of their lives. To buck the authority of the leadership was to court spiritual ruin, or so I thought. I let myself be bullied. I say this to my shame. I was controlled by a spirit of manpleasing.
I thank God that things finally came to a head, and I found myself backed into a corner. I was losing my children. My relationship with God was in tatters. In desparation, I began re-reading the book of Romans for the first time in a long time (The leaders of Homestead Heritage don't encourage personal Bible study. They prefer that members study the literature written by Adams. His writings are the "official" interpretation of Scripture. Anything else is suspect.). Wow. Paul's inspired words leapt from the page. Man isn't saved by works of the law, or a spirit of legalism, or by following some man, but by the worth and work of Christ Jesus alone. I began to breathe again; the word of God was life from the dead for me. I felt that I had returned to my first love, Jesus my Lord and Saviour. I brought these things to the leaders. I told them I felt a newness of life. They told me that the only real problem in my life was that I refused to acknowledge the true authority instituted by God--namely, the leaders of Homestead Heritage--in the church. By this time I was beyond being bulldozed by their sophistry. I told them that I could not accept some of the things they were saying. They told me I'd have to go. So I left the group. Then began the systematic vilifying of my name, but that is another story. I am now regarded by the group as an apostate, as one who holds the Son of God up to public shame because I speak out about my experiences. So be it. I've put my trust in Christ Jesus, and Him alone. I wouldn't trade my life in Him for the accolades of ten Homestead Heritages. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
New member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 3:47 pm: |
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I am writing this in response to a phone call I received from a member of HH stating that beechner's statements were untrue. I hope this help clears that up.
I would like to add to what rbeechner said. Which is all completely true. I was raised in Homestead Heritage since the time I was ten among the highest of the leadership. My best friends are their children. My Parents were leaders of a cell group and responsible for ten to fifteen families. I spent every day that I could from the time I was twelve to the time I was eighteen at the Founders house. I helped plant their garden, I ate at their table. Their oldest son and I were best friends for a time. I was in the music ministry and played countless times in the Leaders houses. My only sister married the founders oldest son. I was a very close friend with most of the family. And would still be if they did not consider me an agent of Satan, a Judas, one who has had a "fundamental breakdown in my relationship with God". In my older years I became very close with the other top leaders whose names I will leave anonymous. I traveled to Israel with them . One of them I considered a second Dad and He felt the same about me especially after his three oldest sons left HH. This whole time I really believed that what was going on in HH was the right way; I viewed the leadership as Jesus Christ come in the flesh, as they taught. So worthy of the respect and honor due Christ Himself. Their word was golden. When they were pleased with me, it was if the light of Heaven was shining on me, and so needless to say when they were unhappy, wrath and condemnation would flow forth. Often as Beechner said , in a public rebuke. This was not true only with subjects to leadership but with husbands to wives. I have witnessed countless times where husbands would yell and scream at their wives in the presence of others and often their own children. One leader told me "Your wife was not to be your friend. The only purpose of your marriage is to usher your wife and children into heaven." This Statement came only after I began to question the Leadership of HH, and was discussing my questions with my wife. It was after my marriage that my eyes were opened to the fact that People in HH are often confused in their relationship with God. It is stressed that in order to have a tangible relationship with God you must be completely in submission to the authority of HH .One of these confusions comes from the fact that Personal responsibility is stressed so much in HH that countless papers and questionnaires have been written to teach people that they are responsible for any and all actions that they take. Many of which take days, sometimes weeks to read and answer. All to convince you that HH teachings and convictions are your convictions. Many must be signed, so if you back out later and say "That's not MY conviction" Well , they have your signature. If you are in total submission to the authority how is it possible to really make your own decisions? For example, since the young people are not allowed to go to collage, and are encouraged to work within the community of HH, to the point where in my case it was decided that at age 19, I should work in the farm maintenance shop. Against the wishes my father and I . But once again, we were both convinced that it was Gods will. After six years in the shop I began to have a serious reaction to one of the chemicals that we used in the shop, I brought it to the leaderships attention five or six times before the reaction got to the point that I stopped breathing. So I put my foot down. Being newly married and a child on the way I went to the owner of the shop and told him what had happened, and once again could I please not do jobs that dealt with that certain chemical. Well he freaked out and told me I didnt have a job anymore. I knew that they thought I was just making the whole thing up to this point, but now they new that they had goofed. So the leadership of HH continued to ask me about this for another two years until they got me to say , "It was a possibility that it was just something in my mind that I wanted to be true so bad that my imaginations had materialized." I never heard about it again. Once again it became my responsibility.
There are many reasons that I left HH but one of the main deciding factors was when I brought Gal: 3-5 which starts off speaking of the foolishness of the Galatians for falling prey to a false doctrine of works. But goes on to speak of the freedom in Christ from the law and finding salvation in faith of the death and resurrection .One leader made this statement, "Jeremy, you can't use the Book of Galatians because the Galatians weren't Christians."
This I knew he didn't truly believe because he often quoted from Galatians. He then said,
" Who do you think you are to question the revelations that God has given us as a body through men who have dedicated their lives to understand the scripture."
I hadn't thought of questioning the leadership, I just felt I had seen a contradiction in their teachings and Scripture and was looking for an explanation.
The leadership that I was under had always been for the most part kind to me. But when they realized that I was coming up with more and more questions they put me under a new pastor (and co-author of most of HH literature) that was quite different then they had been. The last Sunday meeting that I was in this new pastor, getting fed up with me for not being satisfied with their interpretation of Scripture, began to scream at me from the front of the meeting, eyes bulging, body shaking, spit flying stomped back to me, and began to scream something in my ear. Every one around me began praying very loud. After a minute or so He asked me if I understood what he was saying? I said No. He then went ballistic. He and another pastor took me by the arm and led me outside where the pastor who had been yelling at me laid down on the ground and began to beg God not to strike me dead. This was the grandest display of scare tactics I had ever witnessed, but I felt no fear. I knelt down took him by the arm and helped him to his feet and said I was sorry but if God was trying to speak something to me maybe we could let him speak to me. I said that I did feel God speaking to me and I shared what I felt the Lord was saying to me. The pastor apologized and said he was sorry. He said sometimes he didnt know how to make people respond to what he felt they needed to be feeling and would move in his flesh. I stood there stunned, my last thread of trust being broken with these men. He had just prophesized to me in front of the Church using the authority of God to speak to me. And was now saying it was his flesh! Wow! Smiling they led me back into the building and sent me to pray for someone at the front! Did they tell everyone else that the display of Gods wrath upon me was just the flesh? NO. Everyone believed that it was God. Realizing that my trust had been broken They tried to disassociate me a few days later. But to late. I was already gone. I have since learned that particular pastor has been removed from leadership.
I tell all this not to smear the leadership of HH, but to show by example the truth of beechner's statement. And uphold the Name of Jesus.
(Message edited by truth hunter on April 13, 2005) |
urka (urka)
New member
Username: urka
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 12.162.188.92
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:07 pm: |
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wow. thanks for sharing! yes, both statements are true. i too was raised in hh till i was 14.
i was saved when i was about 5, in my own home. when i was almost 7 my folks joined hh. i was already home schooled, we had no tv, and i'd been raised conservativly thus far, so hh wasn't too big of a change for me. not on the outside anyway.
i don't remember having any real problems with the group till i was about 11 or 12 and my parents were put on the disassociated status for a reason unknown to me. i just knew my folks kept telling me it wasn't my fault and we'd be back before too long. all of a sudden i was treated different. the kids laughed at me, the only friends i had were lots older than me, and people asked me why i didn't come to church on sundays.
one thing i did always disagree with was their veiw of christians outside hh. they couldn't tell us there were any!!! i knew my gramma was one of the most sincere, christlike people i'd ever met, and that she definately was a christian. i also knew i'd accepted christ, personally, before joining hh and it was possible to be a christian without being part of hh!! that just always got to me, even as a child. i continued my bible reading and prayer time the whole time i was in hh. i believe that is what got me through leaving. i had the relationship with jesus and he held me through it all.
our family never made it back to sunday fellowships. we remained on the 'dis-fellowshipped' list for yrs...
had i been a little older when my family left i think the church would have tried to convince me to stay. just before we left i was allowed to do all sorts of things like help make ice cream for the visitor's center, and work in the pottery shop. people there treated me like i was a piece of gold. i know now they had realized my folks were leaving and wanted to make sure they were nice to me so i wouldn't say anything. ha!
i remember so well the night my dad picked me up from a late night at the pottery shop and told me on the way home that he'd talked to the group leaders that night and we were leaving. i had no good-byes. the only people i saw again were the family who lived on our property and a few people i waved at in wal-mart. all of a sudden i had no friends, no where to go, nothing to do.
i didn't see what all was wrong with hh till we'd been out a while. the lord placed some old friends back into our lives, and the young man i'm now engaged to marry was instrumental in teaching me about god's grace. i've found such a freedom. i don't have to worry about what people think of me, whether i'm failing god or losing my salvation over every little thing, or if i'm doing good enough. now i know his grace and love covers it all. i'm saved because of what he did and not because i've done everything right.
over time i have gotten over the hurt and have forgiven the leaders of hh. i've realized they are misled, confused, and need the love of jesus just as much as i did. my brother on the other hand hasn't gotten over it yet. he was 3 years younger than i when we left and it was 6 months before he'd talk about god, or go to a church because his experience with 'god' (the hh group) had been so bad. j now has a wonderful relationship with christ, but still gets fired up and angry when talking about hh. can't say i blame him, but do pray he will learn to forgive.
jeremy, i am so thankful to know you're out and doing so well! god is sooooo good! many prayers have gone up for you man. isn't he wonderful?!?! i'll pray you conintue to grow in his grace and undying love. may you find rest in his completed work on the cross and the resurection which brought us life! keep reading that bible and let god shine his light in your heart.
i'd love to hear how you're doing and to hear from others who've left and to know how they are!
blessings,
erica |
dowen (dowen)
New member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.154.52.132
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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First off, I want to say thank you to the Watchman fellowship for starting this message board and giving former Homestead heritage members a public forum to discuss some of our past experiences.
That being said, I want to make it very clear to anyone researching Homestead Heritage that the "Fellowship" as it is sometimes called, is filled with some of the sweetest people you could ever hope to meet or commune with. I have often thought about the simple fact that it is incredibly rare to find a community of 1000+/- people who walk in amazing unity with one another. I will let others discuss how they attain that level of unity, but the point I am trying to make is that todays Church desperatly needs unity. Therefore, I applaud any church that makes unity within the body such a high priority. I lament that they have not tried to find ways or have not been successful in finding ways of unifying with other churches, but I am not here to tarnish what they have achieved.
I want to be very clear, I am not writing this in defense of HH. They are fully able to defend themselves, I am only trying to bring a little different viewpoint to the table.
My parents and five siblings are still members of Homestead and while some ex-members have had, or caused problems with family who are still "in" I have been blessed to have a continuing relationship with my folks. In many ways I have a better relationship now than I did before left home.
Another point I would like to make is
I left Heritage Ministries on my own free will, a few months after I turned eighteen. At that time HH had just completed the construction of a new sanctuary and office complex, which I had volunteered many hours of my time to help build. Looking back I deeply appreciate the many skills that I learned during that spring and summer, things taught to me by some of the many talented members of HH. It was during that time that I began making my decision to leave, but in all honesty I didn't have the guts to go and tell the leadership that I was leaving. So I started living a double life. When I was around other members I acted and spoke in their way and when I was out in the "World" I acted and spoke in the worlds way. After a few miserable months of fence riding I finally told my dad what I had been doing, giving him a verbal list of all my vices. (Dating, chewing tobacco, listening to country/western music, foul language, continually voicing opinions in conflict with HH and developing an incredible case of arrogance and rebellion to any type of authority, just to list a few.) Many of those vices I regret committing, but at the time I thought I knew better than anyone else and refused to even feel remorse for my deeds. As a consequence my Dad gave me an ultimatum, give him my drivers license and live the life he had chosen for his family, or leave home. Obviously I choose the latter and while the last four and a half years have had their ups and downs I still draw daily on many of the good things that I was taught while living at heritage Ministries.
As you can see my reason for writing this is not to "expose" Homestead. There may be things that need exposing but I will leave that to others if they so desire.
I personally have no ill feelings toward any members of Homestead and wish only the best for all of them. In closing, I hope that anyone posting messages here will refrain from making personal attacks on the leaders of Homestead. Discussion and even disagreement I believe are good, but in my experiences with the leaders of Homestead they have all been honest and decent men. We may have disagreements, but I have to admire them for their dedication and devotion to what they believe, something I believe is lacking in many churches. |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
New member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
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Dear Dowen.
I would like to comment on one statement that you made.
I personally have no ill feelings toward any members of Homestead and wish only the best for all of them. In closing, I hope that anyone posting messages here will refrain from making personal attacks on the leaders of Homestead. Discussion and even disagreement I believe are good, but in my experiences with the leaders of Homestead they have all been honest and decent men. We may have disagreements, but I have to admire them for their dedication and devotion to what they believe, something I believe is lacking in many churches.
I agree with you in that I wish the best for them. In that they would find Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior and not trust in the teachings and revelations of fallible men. I too love them and as I stated in my last post my best friends are there. One of the leaders I considered my second father. Those feelings have not changed. What I find disturbing and will speak against is the Dedication and Devotion to teachings that bring Glory to men and set them up as Gods. You know as well as I do that most children who are there don't even know why Christ died!
A relationship with Christ in HH is found through your relationship with your group leader or Elder. I don't know if you were still there when B.A. stood up in front of the whole church, and being very angry for some reason that nobody knew screamed at the congregation " No more will you see my face till you can say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" and then stormed out of the meeting. And guess what, he was back at the next Sunday meeting saying that his wife had convinced him to give the church another chance, because there had been some misunderstanding. Then allowed a woman to stand and say, " Our Father has spoken, Our Father has spoken!" Christ said call NO man father. Dear Dowen, He accepted the honor due Christ as his own. I hate to say this, but I'm afraid you are just a little naive on the dealings of the leadership at the top.
Dedication to God?
I mean in no way to tear down the leaders in HH, But if speaking the Truth and upholding the honor of God, Helps put them in proper prospective. So be it.
(Message edited by truth hunter on April 18, 2005) |
dowen (dowen)
New member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.154.52.132
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
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Dear Truth Hunter,
I have struggled this afternoon trying to decide if I should respond to your comment on my earlier statment concerning the leadership of Homestead Heritage. My first impulse was to say nothing, but I am troubled by several of the statements that you made.
First and foremost when I spoke of Dedication and Devotion in the leadership I neither endorsed nor, more importantly, condemned what they believe. I simply said I admire men and women who are willing to take Dedication and Devotion for what they believe in (Whatever that may be.) to the level that the leaders, and members, of Homestead Heritage do. I am sorry I did not make that clear enough. I think you can at least agree with me on the fact that in modern Christianity there is a great need for men and women of God to outwardly show their Devotion and Dedication to their Savior. Maybe in this instance we need to apply the wisdom of the old saying, "Don't throw out the baby with the bath water."
Secondly, I have absoloutly no recollection of anyone attaining forgiveness by the kissing of feet, I am not saying that it didn't happen but if anyone did, I feel sure it was of their own initiative.
And lastly, I can only speak for my siblings, but I know without a shadow of a doubt that they understand why Jesus died. I realize you feel that they have been taught a different gospel than that of the Bible, so in a strange way they don't know the "truth" of why Christ died, but I personally have a great amount of peace in my heart when it comes to my siblings knowledge of the Cross.
I may only be affirming my "naivete" by writing this but I had to respond in some manner.
My prayer is that you, Truth_Hunter, will live up to the lofty goals of your username and never give up in your search for the Truth. I just implore you with all humility to not let bitterness stand in the way of finding your Truth.} |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
New member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 8:16 pm: |
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Dear Dowen and real truth,
I have written what I did with much caution. I do not want to judge and I do not claim to be a spiritual person. I hope that people will see past my faults. And understand that
these statements come from a burning desire in my heart to let people know that what is seen on the outside of HH is not necessarily what is on the inside. I speak from my own experience. I don't expect people to take my word for it, nor do I want them to. I hope that the testimony of others will testify to the truthfulness of what I have said. I am thankful that you want things to be balanced. And Real Truth, in reference to Matt 18. , I did bring some of these things, not once or twice but dozens of times to the Elders.
Thanks for questioning me though. I don't want to come across as a self-righteous jerk. And please if you want to question me in private. Feel free. My email is jersphotos@juno.com
note: I didn't know p!@# was a phallic word. Sorry
(Message edited by truth hunter on April 15, 2005) |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
New member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
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Dear real truth,
The scriptures that you quoted are HH standards. Right from their play book, so it makes me wonder who you are. But regardless here goes.
In ref. To Matt 18 ,
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
What you must understand is that in HH there is an order of relationship that MUST be followed. The pastor or Elder that you are in direct relationship with must first confirm any questions about an Elder and the validness thereof. They are," your covering." It is also important to remember that you cannot and must not speak with members not in leadership positions about your questions because it was considered subverting the authority of Jesus Christ himself and undermining the Lords anointed. You were taught in almost every meeting not to even mentally question the validity of" God's Authority"
Especially in the case of the founder. Which is when they pull out these verses .
1 Tim.5:19 Against an elder receive not an
accusation, except at the mouth of two or three witnesses.
1Ch. 16:22 "Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm."
The last time I spoke with an Elder and brought up a sin that I had witnessed of a Sr. Elder commit he said he would not hear it, believe it or even remember it. And it was no big deal, it just bothered me that they wouldn't even hear it. And of course he used 1Tim 5:19.
Well now that I'm out I know that there are many who witnessed the same problems that I did, and brought them to the leaderships attention. But I guess since we didn't all go at once they couldn't receive it.
So real truth, I am at peace in my own heart that I have brought these things to HH's attention and they would not hear me. And now I am bringing it before the Church.
But, let God be true and every man a liar. |
rbeechner (rbeechner)
New member
Username: rbeechner
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 65.150.12.40
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 3:17 pm: |
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I respect Dowen's sincerity and honesty, his desire to bring a different viewpoint to the table, and his wish to avoid debate concerning the claims of Homestead Heritage. I desire to honor his wishes, but I would ask that he consider the implications of his statement about dedication being a praiseworthy attribute in and of itself, apart from the cause in which it is employed. I don't think this statement will really stand up to scrutiny. Many men and women in the course of history have been strongly dedicated to causes which ultimately led to their ruins. I say this respectfully, and I hope in the same peaceable spirit in which Dowen offered his comments. His points about the sweetness of some of the members of HH and the useful carpentry skills he learned while he was a member there are certainly legitimate, but these, as Truth Hunter pointed out, must be measured against the damage of HH's distorted teaching about submission to authority. It is not the members' sincerity or their diligent work habits that are at issue, in my opinion, but rather their dedication to a gospel of salvation based on works and the unquestioned submission of members to leaders who have shown themselves, like us all, to be very fallible men. No one but Christ alone is worthy of the level of obedience these men demand, and the fear tactics they use, as Truth Hunter accurately described, bring a snare to God's people and lead them into spiritual bondage. And I respectfully submit that no one--especially no child--who attends meetings in which these tactics are employed, is hearing the true message of the Cross of Jesus Christ. Dedication in the false cause of legalism and the fear of man is no praise at all. Or, as Paul says in Romans 10: "I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For, being ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
New member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
|
Dear real truth,
I wish we knew each other on a more personal level. I did not mean to start a fight.
As far as I know you don't know me, or the lengths that I have gone to follow scripture while I was in HH. Yes I am a fallible man, the difference is in that I am not requiring anyone to follow my beliefs under a false pretence that I am Christ.
Best wishes,
Truth Hunter |
tikvah (tikvah)
New member
Username: tikvah
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
|
'You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free'. My prayer and great desire is that all our friends still in bondage to the deceptive and abusive teachings/practices at HH will be set free to walk in the freedom Jesus died to win for us on the cross. Only as we who have left acknowledge the truth and pray for those we've left behind, being ready to witness to the finished work of Christ at Calvary whenever we meet them, will they have the hope of salvation! Pray that all deception is exposed for what it is, that all false doctrine is recognized and renounced, and that our HH friends are delivered from bondage. Truth_hunter, I really appreciate your heart. |
urka (urka)
New member
Username: urka
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2005 - 10:33 am: |
|
great to see dowen here and know he's doing great. buddy, God's got plans for your life. i pray that your exapmle and the new freedom you've found in Christ will be evident to your family. may they desire the peace you've found. i think about your family often. my baby brother was named after your dad and i have many fond memories of your family.  |
dowen (dowen)
New member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.154.52.132
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
|
Urka, thank you for your kind words, and I have fond memories of your family also. I hope they are doing well.
Many blessings on your engagement and upcoming marriage, I have been married for over a year now and it is truely one of the greatest journeys I have ever set out upon.
(Message edited by dowen on April 16, 2005) |
sdleah (sdleah)
New member
Username: sdleah
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.115.244.43
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
|
I haven't had time to read all of the posts here, but just want to say that my family belonged to HH for five years and I can attest to the truth of much of what has been said. And it's so great to see how many former members--particularly young people--are digging into the Word and can articulate the truth so clearly.
Hey, Urka, have you set a date yet? My second anniversary is coming up and I agree with Dowen that marriage is one of the greatest journeys...God is so good! There was a time after we left HH that I felt like I would never be happy and whole again. He has been incredibly faithful to heal and restore. |
recovering_pharisee (recovering_pharisee)
New member
Username: recovering_pharisee
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 64.12.116.9
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 7:01 pm: |
|
In response to "real truth" asking what happened to America? Well,here it is.The freedom to come in and discuss these issues is what makes this a great country.
I would hope that not only ex HH folks would be willing to join this forum but also current "members".
Different people leave HH for different reasons and are at different phases of maturity in their relationship to Jesus Christ.This,along with what they experienced there affects their perspective.
I'm curious Real Truth why did you leave HH and under what circumstances? Also, did you follow the Matt. 18 directive? Were there positive results? Thanks |
urka (urka)
New member
Username: urka
Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.7
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 9:11 pm: |
|
hi sdleah! long time no hear from! so glad to see you here! if you have e-mail please drop me a note at urka84@gmail.com anyone else who knows me is welcome to say hi too. ;)
i think we're looking at sometime in october for a wedding date... i'm getting quite excited to say the least!
i agree with sdleah... it's awesome to see other young folks who've been through what we have, coming to the knowledge of grace and growing in Christ. i'm so thankful every day that His love is unconditional... nothing i do can make Him love me more (or less) and only His sacrifice makes me worthy of His love. in HH i was taught i had to be good (or should i say, perfect) to earn His favor. now what i do and say comes from my heart as a response to His love and mercy. } |
urka (urka)
New member
Username: urka
Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 69.176.48.179
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
|
I can see what you mean, real_truth, when you say it ought to be done personally. my dad did in fact go to the elders of the church (more than one at a time) and tell them his convictions and why he had to bring his family out of HH. we too have learned to be free from all that, totally forgave everyone, and in no way wish to bash anyone personally. but, i do believe it is our job to inform others. we don't crawl out of a pit and just walk off without leaving a warning for others who might fall in, and we don't leave our brother struggling to get out just because we've made it out. nope. i believe we're here to encourage those who are still healing and to warn those who may be headed the wrong direction.
i won't bash any leader or person. only the teachings. even then it is only to inform others or talk about healing.
there are many people still in HH that i love dearly. i pray for them often and if i could, i'd be telling them about the peace and grace i've found in Christ. but, i can't take that drive down i-35 since i live too far away. i'm thankful He has provided this place on Factnet where i can again talk to others i'd lost contact with, to know some of my friends have also healed and are doing well. |
just_curious (just_curious)
Intermediate Member
Username: just_curious
Post Number: 372
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.238.89.201
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 2:36 pm: |
|
real_truth,
Again, I am assuming that what you say would apply to any thread on FACTNet that is seeking to expose the false doctrine, misapplication of scripture and spiritual abuse of fellow believers. Exactly how would a "private" forum serve as a warning to keep others from falling into their snare?
And I guess God shouldn't have included the apostle Paul's warnings to bickering believers in the Bible because now billions of "gossiping eyes" have been "able to view these issues."
I fail to see how an attempt to expose unbiblical, abusive, authoritarian methods used by people claiming the name of Christ is a smear on His name -- rather it is those who misrepresent Christ in such a way who are bringing shame to His name! |
old_watchman (old_watchman)
New member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:32 pm: |
|
To all who have posted here concerning Homestead Heritage. I have read posts by one who would rob you of your freedom. On April 16th a group of former members of HH met for a workshop on spiritual abuse recovery. Some of the points covered dealt with the dynamics and effects of shame-based relationships. It was pointed out that guilt, shame and fear are all part of the manipulation used by the abusers. Also, it was brought out that one tactic used was to isolate the individual from his fellow members. I have noted that this one wishes to hide you away out of public view. Also at the workshop, the "don't talk" rule was discussed. Can those of you who have been posting here see these tactics being used against you by one individual who has come among you to discourage your participation here?
Several points must be made in answer to his comments. First, the leader of HH teaches a false god, a false christ, a false gospel and brandishes authority from a false spirit. Such a man does not carry the mantel of God's authority.
Next, he does not meet the qualification for an elder established by Jesus, Paul and the other Apostles. He has placed himself first above all others. He has taken the Seat of Moses and uses that postured power for his own questionable ends. The Word stands apposed to him.
This abuse of power is pictured in Ezekiel 34. Thus this leader can not be considered a brother and does not fall under Matt. 18.
We have made some serious charges concerning the Homestead Heritage and its leaders.I do agree on one point with the one who has come among you; discuss doctrine. Why is the postured authority of the leader of HH unscriptual? What is the gospel and why is the gospel of HH contentious to the Bible?
Why is the christ of HH not the Christ of the Bible?
This is the only place on the internet that people who are coming into contact with Homestead Heritage can come for accurate information. Give them a scriptural reason to run from this danger. |
boughtpaidfor (boughtpaidfor)
New member
Username: boughtpaidfor
Post Number: 2
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 64.146.89.99
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
|
This message is from TruthBuyer, he was unable to post via his computer. Please address your responses to this post to Truthbuyer.
First of all, the only reason I don’t provide my name is because of current relationships with members of HH and the trouble it would cause them from the leadership if they were known to be friendly with outsiders.
Second of all, what has been described so far is not new among groups within the Body of Christ. My wife and I have experienced the same basic process in various churches for years. Both of us grew up in Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches and have seen the same tactics of intimidation and manipulation when it comes to convincing members to live holy lives for Christ (this is true of other groups as well). This is usually the result of one man or a small group of men accumulating power without the understanding of how to exercise their authority for the benefit of the flock they oversee, and ultimately, for Christ. I have repeatedly experienced the discomfort and, yes, wrath of those who don’t like to be questioned, even though they would consider themselves to be anointed Pastors-teachers. When particular Scripture is pointed out in resolving certain issues brought up by a layman, the Church Constitution or some other set of rules and regulations is sought, instead. Matthew 18 is not an option! I have experienced trying to find a brother to go and confront the other brother and being repeatedly accused of causing dissension among the Body. And Yes, there’s the old standby, “Touch not God’s anointed!” The Words of Christ are completely ignored.
I say this because, in order for Matthew 18 to be implemented correctly, there must be willing parties on both sides of whatever issue is being raised, even when one of the parties is a Leader. That includes the party being confronted and, potentially, accused of sin. Only by allowing the accuser to voice their concern or accusation, can the process be completed. Otherwise, it is short circuited in the sense that the issue never makes it to the full body of members for them to consider and render judgment. (And the intention of the process, reconciliation of Body Members, is never fulfilled.) So, when the process is short-circuited and the party initiating the process is unable to proceed any further, they have two options. Stay where they are, understanding the atmosphere they are in, or leave the situation entirely. Pursuant to Matthew 18 and I Corinthians 5, though, they are to leave, for treating them as publicans and sinners requires a separation. And the separation carries a message all its own, as does the refusal by leaders to listen to others.
This refusal to consider the mandate of Scripture speaks of another problem, authority. What I’ve seen occur in situations like this is that the authority within the family is effectively destroyed, or at least, rearranged. Regardless, the authority of the Husband and Father over the affairs of the family is neutered and transferred to officials within the group. The members of the family must look to these Leaders for guidance. The man is impotent within his own family, unable to think for himself unless receiving the appropriate approval. The only men deserving of respect and admiration from the family members are the Leaders of the group. All matters are kept private, privacy also being within the purview of the Leaders of the Group. To go public with anything is considered sin. And for the man to address the concerns of his family is considered public activity. It is forbidden or, at least, discouraged. And to act against the desires of the Leadership brings a shunning, which is as public as it can be.
The fact that this message, as well as others, is being broadcast on a public forum is no problem. Paul would not consider it a problem, either, I think. Paul personally named the purveyors of False doctrine. Paul warned other assemblies about these men. He even prayed that God would reward them according to their evil deeds and teachings. He also recommended that his letters be read in other congregations. The only way these letters, full of righteous judgments, reached their destinations was by the vast system of roads built by the Romans, paid for by taxes upon conquered foes. This was the secular domain of communication and business of the Roman Empire. And Jesus informed Pilate that the power being exercised by Pilate was ordained from above. The electronic Superhighway (WWW) is no different than this first century reality. This, in no way, alleviates all using this forum to measure their words, careful to not engage in gossip while making necessary points of Doctrine and Conduct. These distinctions were made by Paul when confronting certain situations. Paul confronted sexual indiscretions (without being present, he rendered judgment), but refrained from naming the parties because they, as well as the local members, knew who they were. There was no need to take it further.
Which brings us to this point. Inside HH are precious souls, souls Christ died for. The issue isn’t that we should render final judgment on the current state of their souls in relation to Christ, but what can be done to help them if and when the opportunity arises for some? We know these people. They’re not total strangers to us. And while many things could be said which are true, we still have the duty before God to act in a manner which shows the love that we have for them, the same type of love that Christ has. For some, these actions of love will be different than others because the relationships are different. Some are more acutely aware of what is taking place and feel a deeper burden, having come out themselves recently. Their pain may still be fresh, their wounds not quite healed. The need to help is deeply felt.
While their Doctrine and Conduct may be wrong, they are still entitled to Christ’s forgiveness. And that should be remembered as we address these concerns. If we exhibit the same legalistic mindset with an abundance of sharp words, we shouldn’t be surprised when some of us come away from this exchange with open wounds. Wisdom requires us to measure our words and their effect and, if necessary, shut up. Usually the only thing an abundance of sharp words accomplishes is to reveal the true depth of our ignorance and callousness. Intimidation and manipulation disguised as love and concern are simply the modus operandi of those protecting the little power remaining over unsuspecting souls. God help us to stay as far away from that mindset as possible!
As for those unwilling to take this discussion into the public domain to address doctrine, I would remind them that it is a little late for such high sounding pronouncements since that is exactly what has taken place to this point. When one quotes an abundance of Scripture to prove a particular course of action for the individual Christian, that is teaching Doctrine. And it has occurred in the realm of Caesar, Babel, The Whore, The Beast, Satan and any other tags you can apply from Scripture. So, please, don’t try to make others feel guilty for doing exactly the same thing you have done. And don’t feign righteousness for doing what you say you haven’t done. It is not becoming one naming the name of Jesus Christ, the RealTruth!
***************************************
To Real-Truth,
If there's one thing that needs to be remembered about these people coming out of HH, it is that they have already experienced division by being separated from others in the community and being cast as disobedient, unruly and unsubmissive to authority simply because they, in some manner, didn't meet the standards of conformity demanded by the Leaders. So, contrary to what you have been saying the entire time of your writing, the ones leaving HH are not the ones initiating the separation. It has already occurred within the group and these brothers and sisters were the odd ones out. You are actually preaching to the Choir. What you need to do is preach to the Leaders who have initiated this ungodly, unbiblical method of spiritual intimidation and manipulation. Quit casting these people as lawbreakers when they have simply seen the light of truth about what has received official approval. If you are so interested in truth, go to the perpetrators of what amounts to persecution of the sincerest hearts.
Unity requires that the hearts of everyone involved be committed to unity. Proverbs says that "Only by pride comes contention." There cannot be unity between two when the heart of at least one is being led by pride. The one abiding in this pride is usually the one who will not listen and demands the other to conform to their way of thinking or conduct, Their concern isn't unity but proving to others that they are right. And that is what is involved in HH, the systematic proving that the leaders are right about everything and the complete absence of repentance in their own life or the refusal to acknowledge their shortcomings.
I, too, can look back at glorious happenings that have occurred with the involvement of people who, later, would treat me in the most ungodly way, all because I didn't conform to their way of thinking. They weren't interested in unity, only in getting their way in my life. The sin they were committing refused to be acknowledged by them. As a Husband and father, I cannot allow that type of influence to gain control of my family. Scripture says that my Head is Christ, not some other brother in Christ, not even my Pastor. Yes, there are areas where I need to be in submission to my Pastor, but one of them is not my family, especially when I know that what I would be required to submit to, in the name of Christ, would actually be disobedience to the same Christ. I will stand before this same Christ and give account for shepherding my family. The disobedience of others doesn't alleviate me of that responsibility. And separating myself from the ungodly influence of those brothers (if it is required to protect myself or my family) doesn't negate the positive things that the Lord did through them in my life. It shouldn't be that there is deep joy and pain with the remembrance of a single brother or sister, but as you have pointed out, we are not perfect.
My point is that you have made your point many times over and your attitude seems to be the same as HH, control over what these people believe. By your constant hammering of the same points, they have ignored you. Maybe the one who needs to listen is you because these people are not some programmable robot built to respond the way you believe they should. Don't try to do the work of the Holy Spirit. I believe He is extremely capable of taking his Word and speaking to the hearts of anyone. It could possibly be that the message you are speaking needs to be heard by your own heart and those of HH. |
urka (urka)
New member
Username: urka
Post Number: 12
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.126
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:55 am: |
|
I was not able to attend the meeting old_watchman is refering to, but I have heard from friends that is was a positive meeting where healing and encouragement took place, people were reunited with friends, and everyone could share about their experiences since they have left HH and how God has brought them to where they are now.
Godly counsel is healing to the soul. If a brother is having a hard time getting through something from his past, it is a blessing to have the problem or source laid out so that the brother can see just why he is struggling.
When I left HH I knew I wasn't a happy, joyous Christian, but I didn't know why. It took months, years even, of reading my Bible and faithful friends teaching me about God's grace and mercy to get to where I am now. I'd been taught a works based salvation. I didn't wake up one day and some lightbulb went off in my head and changed everything. I needed my Father and the people He placed in my life to help me see the Truth which set me Free.
From what I have heard, this meeting was not to bash HH, the leaders, or to talk badly about anyone, but to heal people. I believe much prayer was invested. I only wish I could have attended.
My prayers are that everyone find the healing grace and love that I have found in Jesus,
Urka |
urka (urka)
New member
Username: urka
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.126
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
|
real_truth,
Have you considered that maybe people are tired of arguing with you or they don't have the time that you do to sit and reply to some of your stuff? Just because someone hasn't answered your post doesn't mean they've surrendered.
Also, it is ok for each to have his own views and beliefs. I have no problem with you stating yours. But, I don't believe one should pressure another to take his side. This is the beauty of a personal relationship with Christ. I have seen you encourage one or two people on these boards. The rest you have either outright called a coward or talebearer, or you have attempted to show them where they were wrong and you were right. Can we not agree to disagree in some areas? May I ask why your interpatation of the Bible, or someone's post, is always right? Must you always have the last word? Do you have the ability to read minds that you can tell us what we are thinking, that one's question is a trap and not a sincere question, or that we are bitter?
Personally, I feel no bitterness toward anyone. Christ's love erased all that. I honestly do not resent you in any way and I respect that you have your own views. Please do not take my post as meaning I'm upset with you, or I think you're just totally wrong. I'm just trying to look through others eyes and am asking honest questions.
I will admit that though I have been a Christian for almost 16 years, most of my 'growing' has taken place in the past 5-6 years. I'm still learning daily and growing in His grace. I do not claim to have all the answers, nor would I consider myself to be 'mature' or wise. I simply long to know Him more and to learn everything I possibly can about my Jesus. I'm sure many here are more knowledgeable and mature than I and I look forward to learning from you all!
Peace and Love in Christ,
Urka
(Message edited by urka on April 29, 2005) |
urka (urka)
New member
Username: urka
Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.126
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 1:58 pm: |
|
and where did i ask you to shut up? i don't recall thanking anyone for asking you to shut up either. did i not say i respected that you had your own view? i included you in those i'd like to learn from. i'm not asking you to go away or quit posting your views. just please be more careful about 'reading between the lines' of peoples' posts and so hastily deciding you know our hearts. i have enjoyed reading your commentaries on scripture and your views on doctrine. however, your hasty judgement of people's hearts and motives bothers me some.
smile and think positive.
urka |
urka (urka)
New member
Username: urka
Post Number: 16
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 12.162.187.126
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 2:13 pm: |
|
>>You are all for free expression, except when someone is telling me to " shut up " in which case, you thank them. Or is my memory wrong? Search the testimony thread. <<
I'm sorry. I was not clear in the testimony thread. I see that someone asked you to shut up, and then later on I thanked someone for standing up for me. I didn't mean to thank them for telling you to shut up! I only thanked them for reading my post the way I meant it and helping me to point out that Truth mattered more to me than talents.
Please forgive me for my carelessness in not clearing this up earlier.
Peace,
Urka |
truth_hunter (truth_hunter)
Junior Member
Username: truth_hunter
Post Number: 35
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 66.55.228.216
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
|
I just want to say I agree with urka, I also have enjoyed real truths postings, he has spent I'm sure many hours and I hope much prayer in them. Some are insightful, though I believe misguided and based upon false assumptions, I agree that from his point of view he is right. I just disagree on his view of HH. He seems to believe their doctrine is based on a biblical foundation, where as I believe that it is not, being as I believe the leadership sits in the place of Christ, therefore they serve a false Christ, which of course makes real truths points null and void from my point of view and experience.
I also hope everyone finds the Love and Grace of God as wonderful as I have! Until they do they will never see my point view!
Real truth, if your who I think you are we're sorta family, in a round about way anyway. Isn't that weird? |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:42 pm: |
|
[Quote: "...He seems to believe their doctrine is based on a biblical foundation, where as I believe that it is not..."]
For an outsider trying to make heads or tails of this thread I can only shake my head at how convoluted and twisted this entire exchange is.
It would be nice for all if both parties would--succinctly--with all brevity and plainness of speech state, in their own words, what they each believe.
Also, as since at least one of these individuals apparently appears to be a current and supporting member of HH then it would be most appreciated if that member would also--succinctly--state exactly what HH believes.
There have been various allegations throughout the board against HH, of which, one of numerous allegations is that HH puts nothing into writing thereby having nothing to defend or backpeddle on later if called to account.
There is no bonafide Christian organization that i am aware of that implements such avoidant practices.
That being the case, the supposition is that HH, if it is, indeed, a truly right and good Christian organization, would not ever shy away from and would be more than happy to present a full and complete Statement of Faith any time it were so requested.
1...Would an HH member please copy-paste a full and complete statement of faith in this thread?
2...Also, would an HH member please post herein a current non-profit financial statement as required by state and IRS rules...or, at the least, please post a current and valid physical address complete with contact person's name and phone number where one might be obtained as so required?
Thank you all. |
just_curious (just_curious)
Advanced Member
Username: just_curious
Post Number: 520
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.227.84.69
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
|
Excerpt from Christianity Today article (emphasis mine):
Along the way, changes came about and an Anabaptist influence surfaced. While some elders come from Oneness Pentecostal backgrounds, the present community defies easy categorization. One leading elder told me they do not use the word Trinity in teaching about the Godhead, but in my close questioning I have detected no aberrant teachings about God even though they are reluctant to affirm the language of Nicene orthodoxy. Their impulse is to stick closely to biblical language.
Homestead Heritage theology is generally evangelical but without system or speculation. They choose not to have a creed or a written confession. The focus is on conversion to Christ by faith and self-sacrificial discipleship within the body of Christ. Each member is accountable to the community and learns what Christian living means in and through that context. They love Jesus Christ and worship him as God and Savior.
Rather than produce systematic works of theology, Homestead's elders are voracious readers and prolific authors, producing home-schooling curricula and other print materials on organic farming, peacemaking, and agrarianism.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/002/32.56.html |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
|
thanks, just curious, for posting CT's words.
if a supporting HH member would post HH's words it would go a long ways to putting this entire issue to rest.
1...Would an HH member please copy-paste a full and complete statement of faith in this thread?
2...Also, would an HH member please post herein a current non-profit financial statement as required by state and IRS rules...or, at the least, please post a current and valid physical address complete with contact person's name and phone number where one might be obtained as so required? |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
|
To both of you "curious" brothers,
I had to break my silence after reading your post's.
Unless I am mistaken neither one of you are, or ever have been members of HH, so WHAT IS IT TO YOU WHAT THEY BELIEVE!! Show me that I am wrong but it seems to me that both of you, curious1 especially, are simply here to be nothing more than rabble rousers. Like someone else here said, this is America!! We don't need self appointed religious police officers patrolling our religious landscape!! Is God not big enough to do that for himself??
Unless HH did something to each of you personally neither one of you have any call to sit at your computers and try to play "pin the sin on the Church" like you are. It is kind of interesting to watch the accusations get more and more deperate though. I guess some of you are going to continue trying to find some sin or wrong that will stick though, God help you.
(Just_curious, you have been more polite, but I still wonder about your motives)
While reading this site I am reminded of when Jesus was put on trial. Person after person bore false witness against him until finally someone said something that would stick, and at that the High Priest tore his robes and said that he needed to hear no more. I am waiting for some of you to tear your robes, after reading yet another false accusation, so that you will be exposed as the true "Accusers of the Bretheren" that some of you are. I am NOT saying that ALL of you here are doing that, but some of you have a very defined agenda against HH and I cannot help but cry out against that.
I am going to try to go back into my quiet corner for awhile, I just had to respond to the above exchange. |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 7:56 pm: |
|
As I was saying before so rudely being interrupted:
There is no bonafide Christian organization that i am aware of that implements avoidant practices and refuses to provide on request statements of faith and (legally required) recent non-profit financial statements.
That being the case, the supposition is that HH, if it is, indeed, a truly right and good Christian organization, would not ever shy away from and would be more than happy to present said documents when requiested.
1...Would an HH member please copy-paste a full and complete HH statement of faith into this thread?
2...Also, would an HH member please post herein a current non-profit financial statement as required by state and IRS rules...or, at the least, please post a current and valid physical address complete with contact person's name and phone number where one might be obtained as so required?
Thank you all. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 35
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
|
I am the rude one?
I am not digging around and trying to find some sin to pin on Homestead, like you are! And yet I am the rude one, how hipocritical of you!
You may call me anything you wish, but I will never tell you to shut up, and I will never ask a moderator to force you to "cease" saying things that I don't like! (As you have done!)
If you are so desireous of a financial statement, drive down to Waco and GET ONE FOR YOUR SELF!! If you can't drive to Waco, you obviously know how to use the WWW. Once you get your info I think you will be shocked by what you find.
I am not trying to be rude to you, but YOU came here to destroy innocent people and their livlihoods. I can tell by some of the insane questions and veiled accusations you keep raising that you must be an incredibly bitter person, because the only way you can justify your behavior is by denying the existance of hell. It is my personal opinion that if you deny the existance of hell then you also deny the existance heaven, so my question is, what do you have to look forward to? Is it because of that dynamic that you feel so driven to "expose" innocent people like the folks out at Homestead? Are you looking for a reward on earth because you no longer believe in the rightous receiving their just reward in heaven, and the sinners receiving theirs in hell?
Once again, I am not trying to be rude but you came here making veiled accusations against an innocent Church, not I.
As I told the Old_Watchman, you are persecuting the Saviour you claim to love and worship.
Sorry for interrupting you, now you can return to your vendetta! |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
|
If at first you don't succeed...
There is no bonafide Christian organization that i am aware of that implements avoidant practices and refuses to provide on request statements of faith and (legally required) recent non-profit financial statements.
That being the case, the supposition is that HH, if it is, indeed, a truly right and good Christian organization, would not ever shy away from and would be more than happy to present said documents when requiested.
1...Would an HH member please copy-paste a full and complete HH statement of faith into this thread?
2...Also, would an HH member please post herein a current non-profit financial statement as required by state and IRS rules.
3...or, at the least, please post a current and valid physical address complete with contact person's name and phone number where one might obtain the requested information as so required?
Thank you all. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 37
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
|
My, my, my, what a broken record you are. |
very_disturbed (very_disturbed)
New member
Username: very_disturbed
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.27.7.241
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
|
Thanks dowen for all your honest words. At least someone is willing to take on the multitudes of lies and deceptions posted here. I see how they all tear each other up, even in this forum. The reason why is because all of them are their own "God". All trust in their own sinful minds, and esteem their opinion greatly, and they have no desire to know the truth. That is why they are in the place they are in. Yes I left the church too. But God has showed me many things since then, and while I am by no means "on my way back", I prefer to humble myself and own my immaturity and mistakes, than stand by a stupid decision because of great stubborness and pride and never move forward and become the functional human being God made me to be. God Bless! -Very_disturbed |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 39
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.162.144.69
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 8:58 pm: |
|
Very_disturbed, THANK YOU for standing up against this travesty along side of me. I hope this whole "discussion board" will die down soon, but until it does I pray God will continue to send honest people to at least temper some of the stories being told here.
I agree with you whole heartedly on your point of individuals taking personal responsibility for their actions. If more ex-members would just realize that 99% of their problems are of their own doing, none of us would be here today. I know people at HH have made mistakes and some of those mistakes may have caused some of us to leave, but as you said, we left them. A broken relationship will always hurt but that doesn't mean that none of us should have any more relationships with our fellow men!
Keep up the good work! |
very_disturbed (very_disturbed)
New member
Username: very_disturbed
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.27.7.241
| | Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 9:30 pm: |
|
Thanks DOwen. I am not too worried that this bitter mob has much of a chance of destroying God's good work. As for me, since I left, their life, their additude, their bitterness, have driven me to make peace with God. They have proved to me exactly the opposite of what they desire to prove.
As for the good people of HH,I will take to my grave the utmost honor and respect for their sacrifice, because they have taught me so much. Regardless of our differences, their faithful example continues to inspire me daily. I thank God for all of those who stand strong in spite of how much opposition the Devil heaves their way. In spite of how silly and unpopular it may seem.
May God continue to help us all, very_distubed |
curious1 (curious1)
New member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2005 - 7:03 pm: |
|
...try try again...
There is no bonafide Christian organization that i am aware of that implements avoidant practices and refuses to provide on request statements of faith and (legally required) recent non-profit financial statements.
That being the case, the supposition is that HH, if it is, indeed, a truly right and good Christian organization, would not ever shy away from and would be more than happy to present said documents when requiested.
1...Would an HH member please copy-paste a full and complete HH statement of faith into this thread?
2...Also, would an HH member please post herein a current non-profit financial statement as required by state and IRS rules.
3...or, at the least, please post a current and valid physical address complete with contact person's name and phone number where one might obtain the requested information as so required?
Thank you all. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 43
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 12:19 pm: |
|
And the broken record keeps spinning... |
very_disturbed (very_disturbed)
New member
Username: very_disturbed
Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.27.7.241
| | Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
|
and spinning and spinning...............may God help us all, very_disturbed |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 38
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 12:23 am: |
|
[Quote: "may God help us all"]
That is an impossibility. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
|
First you deny the existance of Hell, now you deny God the power of helping any He so chooses. You sound more and more foolish with every post. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 42
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
|
First, you cannot prove by the scriptures or otherwise in the existence of hell as being anything but the grave.
second, you are altering what you originally said to fit your own ongoing argument; your statement was not initially "God can help any HE chooses" but rather what you stated was a request that "God Help all that YOU wanted helped" for your actual words were a request of God.
And, no, for God to help ALL would be in violation of His nature; if this were not so then there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice as since God would be helping everyone and no one would be lost and all would be saved. Obviously, an impossibility.
The Bible does not preach a doctrine of equality for that is a humanistic desire; the Bible teaches a two class system, some are saved and some are not.
Please try to be more accurate and a lot less hot headed emotional and accusatory in the future. It'll do wonders for your public image. |
very_disturbed (very_disturbed)
New member
Username: very_disturbed
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.27.7.241
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:09 pm: |
|
Do you expect that Dowen cares more about his "public image" than he does about defending what he believes to be true? Believe it or not, there are some things worth becoming a fool for. There are some things more valuable than public image. Just a thought. May God help us all! Very disturbed |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
|
seems to be some interference on the line, maybe that post oughtta get redone just in case. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 49
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:42 pm: |
|
First, you cannot prove by the scriptures or otherwise in the existence of hell as being anything but the grave.
second, you are altering what you originally said to fit your own ongoing argument; your statement was not initially "God can help any HE chooses" but rather what you stated was a request that "God Help all that YOU wanted helped" for your actual words were a request of God.
And, no, for God to help ALL would be in violation of His nature; if this were not so then there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice as since God would be helping everyone and no one would be lost and all would be saved. Obviously, an impossibility.
The Bible does not preach a doctrine of equality for that is a humanistic desire; the Bible teaches a two class system, some are saved and some are not. |
dowen (dowen)
Junior Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 207.54.214.51
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
|
Here you go again new record but it is broken like the first one. I find it humorous that you use the old "paste and copy" method to make your points, over and over again. Is that your way of trying to wear me down?
I would like to point out that I NEVER said I wanted God to help only those I wanted him to help! That is, simply put, crazy.
You have your view, I have mine. I don't think that in this scenario we will ever be able come to much agreement on anything. I guess we will have to let the reader decide who's view is correct.
It seems you feel I have been "hotheaded, accusatory and emotional" on this board. Maybe so, I cannot help but feel emotional about some the accusations you and those in your camp have made about Homestead. I will also add that I am a 23 year old kid, hardly qualified to debate or divide some of these issues. It is just when I see people saying things that I feel are not true, I have a burning desire within me to at least try to temper the lies I feel are bing told here. Trust me, I have spoken with several of the posters here, and they, for the most part have decided I must have not gone to the same church that they did! They think this for the simple reason that my experiences seem so different than theirs! Does that mean everything that has been said here is all wrong? I don't think so, it just sadly means that we will all never be able to agree on certain issues.
Maybe you have a valid point about me being too "hotheaded". But if you had been loved like I was at Homestead, and then you saw people attacking those who had loved you so much, I happen to think you would probably be even more hotheaded than I have been.
Now I will wait and see if you re-post what you have already posted twice, it seems you have a habit of doing that.
(Message edited by dowen on May 18, 2005) |
just_curious (just_curious)
Advanced Member
Username: just_curious
Post Number: 562
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.227.84.69
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 3:01 pm: |
|
dowen,
You "feel" that things said here are not true; you "feel" that lies are being told; your experiences "seem" so different than others; you will never be able to agree on certain issues.
I don't doubt you at all because I know how different the experiences were of individuals in my old group. But having a "good" experience doesn't change the truth of someone else's "bad" experience. And it can be very painful to face the fact that there was so much bad going on right in front of you and you didn't recognize it. It is not easy to acknowledge that one might have been deceived.
If your experience in HH was all positive, then by all means hold on to that and be thankful that you were spared. But open your mind to the possibility that your "feelings" may be steering you wrong where others are concerned.
I admire your apparent sincerity and loyalty. And I understand that letting doubt creep in about ones you love and admire is painful and seems disloyal. |
un_aware (un_aware)
New member
Username: un_aware
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.200.116.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 9:45 pm: |
|
wow, well first i would like to say that i am not a member nor an ex-member of HH. However, i have family that are members of HH. all of these postings have been very insitefull. it would seem to me though, there are some people here that just like to get an arguement going and like to repeat themselves over and over.
Over the years, i myself have questioned the teachings of HH. all of you here have answered some of my questions and my curiosity of the HH. I do believe that the people of the HH are some of the nicest most generous people i have ever known. However, i do not believe in their ways of teachings. Not being a member or ex-member i am only going off what i have been told by the people that are close to me, and what everyone has said here. Wow, this is all so much to take in, in one day. I wish the best for all of you, and may God bless you all. Keep sharing your stories here to help others who have left, who have been through the same things as you, and those how have family, friends, and loved ones still involved with HH. And remember not to judge those who choose to stay there. TAKE CARE AND GOD BLESS. I SHALL KEEP YOU ALL IN PRAYER |
curious1 (curious1)
Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 65
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
|
quote: "I NEVER said I wanted God to help only those I wanted him to help!"
Sure you did, you just don't realize it, and if you'll lower you're shields for just a moment I'll explain. Just like so many of us don't realize much of what we say throughout everyday of our lives. For example,
Most, if not all of us, have at one time or another, heard others in the middle of a really hot summer day say something like, "g*d d*mn it's HoT out!" and never once realized how easily this "could become" prophetic:
Revelation 16:9, "And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory."
You've heard things similar, but how often have you ever heard the needed repent, "forgive me, Lord" immediately thereafter?
in any event, what you said was:
"may God help us all"
Who asked God? You asked. What did you ask God for? You asked God for help. Who did you ask God to help? You asked God to help "US ALL".
(to which i replied to the effect, that is an impossibility)
whatever, in any event...
words are things. the early Hebrews knew this all too well. blessings are examples. Curses are examples. th4e very names of their children all had meanings. And those words and meanings often had effects. Our words call things into being.
a man has an idea for a new widget. he takes that thought and by committing it to paper he has begun the process of bringing the widget into being. before long those words turn to schematics on paper and before long wal-mart is selling a new and improved model of widgets.
that portion of the first amendment "freedom of thought leads to freedom of expression leads to freedom of fellowship" shows the gradual bringing of thought into physical manifestation.
by speaking of something we lend it credence and it then becomes an issue and must be dealt with.
God said, "let there be..." and with those words became creation and all its contents.
Words ARE things.
James 3:8, "But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison."
(Message edited by curious1 on May 19, 2005) |
curious1 (curious1)
Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 66
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 7:28 pm: |
|
quote: I cannot help but feel emotional about some the accusations you and those in your camp have made about Homestead.
without a doubt, i am in a camp all to myself. that being said, please don't automatically lump me with those of other camps i don't even know. As to accusations, I don't recall have made any though i will admit i have asked some pretty pointed questions.
quote: I will also add that I am a 23 year old kid, hardly qualified to debate or divide some of these issues.
no problemo, at one time or another we all attain that age and in the process we all face many seemingly insurmountable issues.
Ecclesiastes 1:9, "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."
ever heard the one about what happened to the old plowhorse that had his head so stuck in the furrow he never thought to raise up and look around?
there's really not much difference between furrows and tunnelvision. |
justwondering (justwondering)
New member
Username: justwondering
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2006
Posted From: 12.175.22.148
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 9:48 pm: |
|
I have been reading some of the posts here. It seems these people are actually living out the real faith that is described in the Bible, as the early believers did. Do they all live together and share everything? I am a little confused about that. How do they live?
I would like an answer from someone who lives there if possible.
Thanks |
missionary_lady
Intermediate Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 404
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.98.57.155
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
|
If it were really true what I thought was happening there I would have given my life to protect their image.
No one is perfect in their teaching. I was willing to over look many things but when it came down to where the rubber meets the road I saw it was not a church of Acts church like I thought it was. Of course this takes time to find out.
I believe God has a real revival to send to earth before his second coming. I know some differ on that veiw. But that is my personal belief.
When I saw what seemed to be such an outward manifestation of love I was swayed...Something I have prayed for. For it is by love we are known to be disciples of our Master. He himself said so...then as months passed, things happened and I saw firsthand it is not a biblical love but it was in our case people trying to use us...
I am condemned by some on this board but I am a watchman on a wall for thousands of souls and I refuse to lead my people in a path where their every move, every thought is controlled...Everything has to pass by the "brothers"...
That is unhealthly control. No wonder the ones that left there have found themselves in a maze...trying to understand the real gospel. One that YOU PERSONALLY can hear the voice and direction from the Lord.
They wanted to tell us what to do in our work. How would they even begin to fathom the awesome responsibility that a missionary of 40 years carries?
How would they have the knowledge to tell us what to do and how to do on the field?
Just use common sense and you will see they had a plan...why did they tell us to kill our baby (work)...
I know BA thinks he is their Abraham...the members there said so...but he is no Abraham and neither am I.
Just wondering: no, they do not live together, no they do not share everything...
Do not confuse them with the 12 tribes that say they share everything. HH is more on an Amish setup.
Most of the leaders were UPCI or Oneness at the beginning...Some came from the hippe movement and the only "structure" they know is what is taught there to be God's enlightened plan for today.
Temple patterns...
None of their simple living bothers me for I am a very simple person what does bother me is their authority message...cross them...and see what happens... |
dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 553
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 2:32 pm: |
|
Judging from your posts on this site, ML, it is far more dangerous to cross you than it is to cross HH.
It seems to me we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black here.
DOwen. |
missionary_lady
Advanced Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 511
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.55.231
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 7:33 am: |
|
say whatever you care to say Dowen...it will all be judged by God alone...He know the hearts of the leaders at HH and He knows our hearts... |
dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 579
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 9:43 pm: |
|
Well, this question begs to be asked, if it will all be judged by God, then what are you doing here? |
missionary_lady
Advanced Member
Username: missionary_lady
Post Number: 561
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 200.147.52.64
| | Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
|
The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, "Judge righteous judgment"(John 7:24).
He told a man, "Thou hast rightly judged"(Luke 7:43). To others, our Lord asked, "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (Luke 12:57).
The Apostle Paul wrote, "I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say" (1 Corinthians 10:15). Again, Paul declared, "He that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Corinthians 2:15). It is our positive duty to judge.
We have just judged HH no doubt in the wrong place...but the Bible teaches us to prove all things.
God wants His children to be like the noble Bereans who "searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so"(Acts 17:11). |
dowen
Advanced Member
Username: dowen
Post Number: 591
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 67.9.93.81
| | Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 8:50 pm: |
|
Point taken.
God bless,
DOwen. |
old_watchman
Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 77
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:06 pm: |
|
Bump |
old_watchman
Member
Username: old_watchman
Post Number: 84
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.15.65.110
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:27 pm: |
|
bump |
fullofquestions
Member
Username: fullofquestions
Post Number: 75
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 70.57.32.25
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:14 pm: |
|
snap dog |
praxaluh
Junior Member
Username: praxaluh
Post Number: 48
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 24.193.219.212
| | |
