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Admin (Admin)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2003 - 12:53 pm: | 
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For discussing all things Baptist. |
HuH? (152.163.252.129)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 9:59 pm: |
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What is Wrong in the Baptist Church? I don't see anything wrong with them. I am a christian, and most baptist are good people to be around. Their are going to be false teachers in every church, but You don't need to let them bother you. Just do what God tells ya.
Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Matthew 7:1-5 |
Anonymous (208.24.179.11)
| | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 3:48 pm: |
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Okay let me make a distinction so those on both sides know the whole story. Baptist churches in general are independent. So they are not a part of some overall organization and have their own set of doctrines. Whereas those of say the southern Baptist Convention hold to certain key doctrines. So you can have one Baptist church way off and no one says much.
As for judging be careful you understand what you're saying. It does not say that you are to never judge as elsewhere it say "make a right judgement" or "judge according to truth". It simply means certain way you are not to judge. But also in that judging you show that you know what is right and wrong and you yourself shouldn't be doing it and you should examine yourself first to make sure that isn't so. But it does not mean we are never to judge.
I wanted to make those distinctions.
M |
David Peters (203.192.219.215)
| | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 10:02 am: |
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Baptists are generally considered to be doctrinally Sound.Example Southern Baptist convention .Then there are the Fundamental Baptsts like Jack Hyles .These people are doctrinally sound but tend to get extemely legalistic.Then there are the Extreme fundamental independent Baptist they can be LEGALISTIC.THESE GROUPS give rise to more Bible based groups that eventually become sort of cultic example Greater grace world outreach.Read Rado Bible class literature they are moderate good balanced baptist I shall post more information |
Anonymous (68.119.47.6)
| | Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 10:52 am: |
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I WAS A MEMBER OF THE INDEPENDANT FUNDAMENTAL BAPTIST CHURCH AND THEY WERE CERTIANLY NOT CULTIC NOR LEGALISTIC THEY SIMPLY BELEIVED AND OBEYED THE WORD OF GOD. THEY LIVED RIGHT AND DID NOT HAVE ANY CULTIC PRACTICES. |
formercalvarymember (199.239.212.44)
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 5:40 pm: |
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To the last "Anonymous" poster, we are NOT saying that ALL IFB Churches are evil or cults. Wake up ! I am telling the story of my old IFB Church, which was ran by a cult leader. There can be IFB cults, Methodist cults, Southern Baptist cults, ect.... depends on how the church is ran and who it is ran by. In my old IFB Church there was no commitee and NO voting by the congregation. The "preacher" told us how much salary he was getting, and would force ppl to take out loans if he thought they were not giving enough offering. He would raise his salary on his own and he cheated the IRS out of millions by lieing to them about employees he had, etc... He forced young boys to massage his feet in and out of public. He spit in boys, and mens faces, he taught for ppl to beat their children until they were black and blue and couldn't sit, he taught for men to abuse their wives if they didnt listen to them. He taught us, from the time we were real young (age 5) that if we left HIM (not God) we would die of cancer or some horrible death. He was seen picking up hookers after Sunday evening Church, he was caught on video at a strip club....swearing, and drinking. He admitted to having a porn, drug, and whiskey addiction but, defends it by saying he was doing all this so the Holy Ghost would pierce his heart. Now, if this isn't a cult leader running a cult, then I dont know what is. Read into things alittle more, before you speak  |
JeffSmith (68.14.48.169)
| | Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 11:06 am: |
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I agree with you that NOT all Fundamental Independent Baptist churches are actually "cults" but I think many of them ARE - or are just at the dividing line between "a little wacko" and "cult."
I was a member of a Fundamental Baptist church for over 6 years; I gave my life to it. Too bad, since it was controlling every aspect of my life and NOT for the better.
The best thing to equivocate it to is spiritual abuse. That went on a lot. Jack Hyles and his movement is a good example of a well-known church that's similar to what I'm talking about.
A BETTER example is Bob Gray's Longview Baptist Temple in Longview, Texas.
I've been out of the cult now for 6 months, and I feel so free....FINALLY...
Jeff Smith
www.hubrisbook.com |
Anonymous (132.250.8.74)
| | Posted on Friday, July 16, 2004 - 9:46 am: |
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It's not really whether or not the sign out front has the word "Baptist" on it...
I am a born again Christian first, and I just happen to attend an independent baptist church. I think too much credit is given to the 'title' or denomination of a church sometimes. There are good and 'extreme' baptist churches (mine is fairly conservative, but they don't tell you 'how' to live your life, that's the Holy Spirit's job to convict people through their own personal Bible study, which is what is encouraged), just like there are good and bad doctors, taxi drivers, whatever... just because someone claims the word 'baptist', doesn't mean a whole lot anymore... i can claim to be a good cook, and believe it myself, but that doesn't mean that i really am. i'm sure there are 'bad' baptist churches out there, just as there are bad doctors, bad teachers, bad organizations claiming to be charities, bad companies to work for....... |
Marvin (217.57.199.12)
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 4:40 am: |
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I will tell you I have not read all of these but see. there is one sight that estimates maybe one million americans went through mind control. I went to the www.altvista.com search engine to find these and the subject was mind control against the law. just wanted you know the search engine so you can find exactly where I got these, even though you may find all of them under another search engine.
http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/resrc-hm.htm
www.kovr.com/11nov00/111700a.htm (
NEWS: Do you believe in government mind control? (11/17/00)
http://www.raven1.net/cwfinalmkzine2002.htm
http://www.worldnewsstand.net/today/specialreport/10-5.htm
http://members.aol.com/castloc/press.html
http://members.aol.com/castloc/press.html
I know I am a victim, I will tell you this happened at my church in Memphis TN. You know is a Baptist Church, I don't go to any Baptist Church anymore, but a another SBC helped me pay off medical bills in which that big that church in which I was a member did not. You know what they wanted me to get on drugs, what do you think will happen to a person who is not mentally ill who takes a drug like prozac when there is nothing wrong with them? Do you think it could really make a person really mentally ill (i.e. crazy)? I would have to if I wanted to go back to that chruch but rejected because I was VERY PARANOID! at that time, now I know OH NO! I kept comming back to the church and the men in bibical gudiance and the leaders of the laymen work together, and they said kept having security throughing me off the LORD's Property because they call it private property! but I know it is The LORD'S property, and they told me if I keep comming back they will have me arrested, and they did on Oct 2, 2003, what for only praying in the sancuary during the week when the chruch doors are open for all to come, when they were throwing me out it was on Sunday when I would go to church services and bible study. They justify themselves but I know this is the works of the false Messiah, for only the Anti-Messiah has belivers arrested for praying. I stand all alone here in for there is no one on my side. I am still suffering, I think I need to go public about this, I just pray the LORD to protect me. I am now attending a Messianic Synagogue, I know there are true belivers in the christian church, but I enjoy it there better, I think this is where I belong, for this is where the LORD led me. You don't know the FEAR it was, It was TOTAL FEAR, but I am much better now. What happend to me is way to long to tell you all. I want you all to know I am hurting hurting, after mind control it only hurts when I think, it is all the memories, But through all lost they can not take the LORD from me. I believe in Yeshua, my Messiah and I know him more and love him more. I know any church or Synagogue is property of the LORD, and they no rights to ban some one who does not do any thing bad, I was just sick, that is not scriptural ban. |
Anonymous (24.113.42.55)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 6:47 am: |
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At about 5 years of age a baptist preacher knocked on the door of my home, my mother having come from a background without religion eagerly absorbed everything he said. Within a year she was nagging my father every day to go to church with her, eventually driving him to divorce.
Once divorced she started attending church on sunday morning, sunday afternoon, sunday evening, wednesday evening, Friday night, Saturday morning 'women of faith' meetings, and on top of that getting involved with church activities and going out 'witnessing'.
When the gas got shut off in the middle of winter my mom tithed her %10 percent.
When the car broke down leaving us house bound, she tithed her %10 percent.
When the water well broke and we had no water for 8 months, my mom tithed her %10 percent.
When half the roof fell in due to snow buildup, she tithed her %10 percent.
for 10 years she spent $8k a year to send us to a baptist school at the church.
During this, her children (including me) were brutally beaten at the christian school during the day. And brutally beaten at night at home.
During this, her oldest son attempted to commit suicide rather then continue life as a homebound, son of a poor christian fanatic.
Eventually all her children would leave her home, the state, and indeed her life all together.
My point here...
During the 15 years she dedicated herself all week long to god, tithed herself into destitution, and in general led 'the good baptist life'... The only time the preacher at the church ever visited her home was to ask for donations to build a new parsonage, buy a new car for the 'ministry', or make sure her children's tuition was paid up. Evidently seeing one of your flock living in a half fallen down house with no heat in the winter with 2 children without food didnt catch his attention, but a new car for him to drive, now thats a cause....
The preacher I speak of was Dr. J. Arnold Fair, Angola, Indiana. |
captainron (67.164.45.94)
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2004 - 2:14 am: |
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Being from a Baptist Background, and now very disillusioned, all I can say is that they are another subculture within our society bent on getting everything for their own membership and with precious little sense of duty to the community. Randall Balmer presented a brilliant miniseries about ten years ago on PBS titled "The Evangelical Subculture." This sums up nearly the entire religious spectrum. A subculture fights only for its own members, has rules only understood within the group, is often deceptive to outsiders and frequently promotes vice. Why so harsh an assesment?
Virtually all religions ignore the Biblical precept "The love of money is the root of all kinds of Evil" (St. Paul to Timothy). It is only on the rare occasion that even Christian religious movements rise above this. An example would be the Methodist revival (Great Awakening) when they emphasized "plain living" which in reality is honest living. Think of all the times you have been deceived by someone who really just wanted your money! Religions are no different.
In the last few decades ( and the seeds were there long before) most fundamentalists have been emphasizing prosperity or blessing or just pursuing the American dream. Now look at how tragically the moral standards in the American business world have declined. Even multimillionaires and billionaires can not resist the temptation to get more. But then, why should they when the "Church" repeatedly harps on the materialistic themes of blessing and prosperity? For those not observing, the value of American currency plummeted 25 percent in a brief time due to these recent business scandals, That puts on a level with third world countries. As educational institutions (including religious ones) continue to educate people who want a soft life devoid of hard physical work, expect more of the same. I am afraid we are in a big wild sea and lost without a compass. CaptainRon |
Anonymous (199.239.212.57)
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 4:58 pm: |
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To the "Anonymous" person that posted on Aug. 14, 2004.........I'm sorry to hear about your childhood and your broken up family, this happens all to often. These "Christian" finatics are living their life according to man and not God. They are brainwashed into believing that it is God that wants us to be in Church Sunday morning, afternoon, evening.....Wed. evening, etc....... NOWHERE in the Bible does it tell us we MUST go to Church, it does howevere tell us we must provide well for our family. What your mother did was wrong.....she was obeying man. The "preachers" are the ones that want you to donate all your time, energy and money into their churches and schools, not God. Yes, we should give to God but, now adays you cant be too carefull. It is obvious that your mother was a very confussed individual as were my parents as they kept us at a strict IFB cult. Its sad that ppl follow men beliving that it is "God's will" when most of the time, God has nothing to do w/ the Church or cult that they are in. |
Angela (Bdchild) (172.146.229.117)
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 7:37 pm: |
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I was involved with a "baptist" church for a while. Initially they were a run-of-the-mill Southern Baptist Church. But somewhere along the way they decided to break away from the Southern Baptist Convention and do their own thing, which ended up looking like a combination of Baptist, Catholic, and Jewish doctrine (don't ask how that works... it still boggles my mind). A lot of good people left the church because it was becoming so bizzare. I don't think it was a "cult," at least not in the sense of the word that insinuates a dangerous group, but it was definately a few sandwhiches shy of a picknick. For example, they believed that space travel is an abomination because it is "trying to find heaven," that anyone who wasn't baptised in their church is "unclean" and thus "unworthy" of worshipping in their church during regular worship service, etc. Very strange in my humble opinion. |
David (210.50.104.112)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 1:46 pm: |
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My Family attended the same Independent Baptist church for 14 years. It is a cult. Nowhere in the scriptures does it teach that the preacher hands out a letter of invitation to the Lords Supper. Our preacher did. The 10% tithe is to be a storehouse of blessing to, not only the church, but to the needy in the churches local area. In our case we saw the preacher and a select chosen few reap all the wealth. Cars, holidays, and the luxuries whilst not having to work a single day.
He and his family mocked many of the scriptures especially that God Is Love. He and his family are an angry people. He showed no love to the sinner or the needy. Where in scripture does it teach that a pastor can go overseas for 6-12 months "doing Gods work" It is called deputation when its about just having one big long holiday whilst drumming up more money. An Independent Local church should be just that, "Independent"
Not all Baptist Churches are cults, many are good, but the one we were in was all about money and control. Many preachers forbid a divorced man from becoming a preacher using the husband of one wife scripture as evidence that he can't. God says he put our sin as far as east is from west and that He remembers it no more. Then who is to say that a divorced man can't preach. God forgave that's the end of it. He aslo says he can't if he loves money, is a brawler and doesn't have his family in subjection. These qualifications would rule out 80% on preachers today. Pastors are servants of the church but live in mortal fear of being overthrown by members. Whoever heard of a servant being in a position to BE overthrown. Many pastors today lord it over the flock.
One last thing, if you are more concerned with Baptist distinctives and Baptist doctrine you would do well to remember Paul's words when he said we were called Christians first at Antioch. Not Baptists but Christians. Christ died at Calvary, not the Baptist faith or any other.
Our identification must be with Christ, with as John said with the one whose comes after me. Christ was not a Baptist, he never baptized, and was only baptized. He taught that the act of baptism was the first step of open faith after salvation, not as a denomnation to be followed or as some relgious title. It was an act not something to become by way of identification. Christ is our identification. We are Christians and that is the name we will find throughout the scriptures. Nowhere are we found as Baptists.
David |
David (210.50.108.177)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 10:59 pm: |
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The problem with the church that is recognized as the one in scripture, cults and false churches aside can be found by reading JEREMIAH 23:1-4 and EZEKIEL 34:1-31. All pastors should get alone with God on this and examine their hearts as to whether or not they are as these pastors described in the above scriptures. "They feed themselves but not the flock." I urge everyone who professes the name of Christ to sit down and study these scriptures to ensure that the church they are in are spirit lead and not man controlled.
Revelation tells us there will be only a remnant church left when our Lord returns and many IFB "churches" will be found wanting. Of course the diehard IFB''s will view what I've said here as an "attack" on them but I'm only pointing to those scriptures above as found in the bible.
A case of don't shoot JERIMIAH or EZEKIAL, they are only the messengers.
Dave |
former (199.239.212.160)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 6:32 pm: |
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David.........You mean you were a member of Calvary Baptist in Butler ??? If so, we would know eachother. I have many, many stories about Dill. Some ppl will never know exactly how dangerous he is to society. |
BASSENCO (207.69.1.54)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 8:30 pm: |
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I document abuses in the IFB movement. There's a diversity of church "types" in the movement, and some churches embrace heresies and/or are certainly disobedient to Scripture in their practice. Others are quite sound. There is no accountability from church to church, which makes the IFB fallow ground for cult-like trachings, but there are good churches in it.
Here's a link:
http://www.pipeline.com/~jeriwho1/blogger.htm |
Anonymous (12.214.86.140)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 12:03 pm: |
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Anonymous (199.239.212.57)
They are brainwashed into believing that it is God that wants us to be in Church Sunday morning, afternoon, evening.....Wed. evening, etc....... NOWHERE in the Bible does it tell us we MUST go to Church.
I had to respond to this. The Bible does not say go to church word for word, but it does say:
Heb 10:25 "Not Forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as in the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much more as ye see the day approaching."
The Bible Also says:
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how chall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
"And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel of Peace, and bring Glad tidings of good things. Romans 10:13-15
And if you look a few verses down it also says:
"so then Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God!"
So if the Bible talks about not forsaking the assembling of christians together to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to get together and to Fellowship and to Preach Jesus to a lost and Dying world. Then it must be a direct commandment for us to go into the house of the Lord and to learn. The book of Acts tells us that Jesus told his disciples to Go Forth and witness to the nation. How can the lost hear what is being preached except they come to church? They are not going to get up and go themselves so Us christians invite them and bring them into the church. And to knock down any further arguments about it, We also deal with the Lost in their own homes. So You see in order for the world to hear about jesus and the Gospel to be spread someone has to go to church to listen to the Preacher.
Anyway, This probably should be in another forum. but I figured I would add my 2 cents.
God Bless |
Anonymous (68.18.204.134)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 1:43 pm: |
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Anonymous (12.214.86.140)
I agree with you completly, well said. |
former (199.239.212.34)
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 9:51 am: |
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And, I suppose when the Bible says "Give to the Lord"........you think that means give all your money to the preacher so he can live large. I don't see in those verses ANYWHERE, where it says we MUST go to Church Sunday MORNING,EVENING, and WED. NIGHT. Those are man made rules. I'm not saying it's wrong to go to Church. But, you are living by man made rules, if you think it's a sin not to go to Church 2 times on Sunday and once during the week. |
Anonymous (69.242.21.100)
| | Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 11:10 am: |
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and they having a form of godliness but DENYING THE POWER THEREOF from such turn away ... |
Anonymous (12.214.86.140)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 2:12 pm: |
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Anonymous (69.242.21.100)
and they having a form of godliness but DENYING THE POWER THEREOF from such turn away ...
Ummmmmm......Who was this directed at? Just wondering.
And to former (199.239.212.34)
Those are man made rules. I'm not saying it's wrong to go to Church. But, you are living by man made rules.
Ok so tell me something Everytime you do not go to church and say We don't have to go to church. Do you feel guilty? Not because what a preacher says or what family says. I know when I miss a Church Service I feel horrible and it isn't because of your supposed "man made rule" theory. God deals with me when I miss a service as I say he deals with you or the next Joe down the street. if God deals with you about a Missing a church service then I tend to say He expects you to go.
God Bless |
former (199.239.212.159)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 6:27 pm: |
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My opinion is that you feel guilty because MAN makes you feel guilty. I don't feel guilty, I pray and I honor God on Sunday as I do every day. The Bible says Honor the Sabbath and keep it Holy, and I do. That's just my opinion, Im not going to argue about it, if you enjoy going to Church every Sunday than thats great. |
the_human_victim (the_human_victim)
New member
Username: the_human_victim
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.4.192.219
| | Posted on Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 9:23 pm: |
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Marvin (217.57.199.12)
Please tell me why if you see this, why did you put your name to what happened to me I never posted my name? If you wanted to show this to someone you knew why did not you just explain look what happened to this person.This post did not happen to you. You are not the victim. I sure wish it was not me.} |
nwmomike (nwmomike)
Junior Member
Username: nwmomike
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 208.24.179.207
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 10:38 am: |
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Quote:I had to respond to this. The Bible does not say go to church word for word, but it does say:
Heb 10:25 "Not Forsaking the assembling of ourselves together as in the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much more as ye see the day approaching."
Response: It is true about not forsaking, or meaning giving up. But a balance here. I know some Baptist preachers try to make you feel guilty for not being there every Sunday no matter what or some even making you feel guilty for not going to morning and evening service or practically whenever the doors are open. That is legalism and going beyond what scripture says. But yes were are to attend regularly to be fed and have fellowship. I agree that the opposite end is people going twice a year on Easter and Christmas. They are obviously missing the point as well.
Quote:"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how chall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
"And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel of Peace, and bring Glad tidings of good things. Romans 10:13-15
And if you look a few verses down it also says:
"so then Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God!"
So if the Bible talks about not forsaking the assembling of christians together to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to get together and to Fellowship and to Preach Jesus to a lost and Dying world. Then it must be a direct commandment for us to go into the house of the Lord and to learn. The book of Acts tells us that Jesus told his disciples to Go Forth and witness to the nation. How can the lost hear what is being preached except they come to church? They are not going to get up and go themselves so Us christians invite them and bring them into the church. And to knock down any further arguments about it, We also deal with the Lost in their own homes. So You see in order for the world to hear about jesus and the Gospel to be spread someone has to go to church to listen to the Preacher.
Response:You should re-read your post if you haven’t already. Your logic is a bit flawed for various reasons.
1. You take preacher to mean the office of preacher. It says that “how shall they hear without a preacher”. As if evangelist do not exist. The word translated preacher is a Greek word for messenger. They can’t hear if they don’t have a messenger to give it to them.
2. The gathering together was in context of talking to believers. The purpose of the shepherd was to equip the believers for service. True that unbelievers will hear the message too.
3. According to the statement you quoted: “The book of Acts tells us that Jesus told his disciples to Go Forth and witness to the nation.” Then actually they are supposed to GO OUT, not stay in.
4. You check the facts at say www.barna.com and most people come to faith and church through friends, family, and acquaintances that invite them.
You said “We also deal with the Lost in their own homes.”. That seems to contradict your next statement “So You see in order for the world to hear about jesus and the Gospel to be spread someone has to go to church to listen to the Preacher.” They don’t have to go to church to hear the gospel and they can’t only hear it from a preacher only either.
Each of us are responsible for the gifts God gave us and they are meant to be used in the context of the church (body of Christ, not a building per se). Even if we aren’t gifted as an evangelist each one of us should be equipped to “give a reason for the hope that is within us”, and if we are gifted with giving, give to the cause of reaching the lost. So we all have a stake at getting out the gospel whether through our own testimony, through the testimony of reading tract, hearing it from a teacher or attending church.
But for believers they should attend regularly to be equipped properly and to partake in the service, not for themselves but for the glory of God.
M or Michael |
rebelrenegade (rebelrenegade)
Junior Member
Username: rebelrenegade
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 12.214.86.140
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 11:14 am: |
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"Response:You should re-read your post if you haven’t already. Your logic is a bit flawed for various reasons."
"1. You take preacher to mean the office of preacher. It says that “how shall they hear without a preacher”. As if evangelist do not exist. The word translated preacher is a Greek word for messenger. They can’t hear if they don’t have a messenger to give it to them."
I never took it to mean preacher as in The office of the Preacher. If we look at the American Heritage Dictionary's definition of the word Preacher it says "One who preaches, especially one who publicly proclaims the gospel for an occupation." I took it to mean anyone who publicly proclaims the gospel for an occupation. I mean gimme a break here I was in a cult like church, I'm not stupid.
"2. The gathering together was in context of talking to believers. The purpose of the shepherd was to equip the believers for service. True that unbelievers will hear the message too.
And this is another attempt at you trying to figure me out. Again I was saying that it was for the Believers. Does that mean if we get together as believers that I keep a unbeliever out? Nope. We invite them to come along and here the Gospel. I do not think Paul or Silas or any of those preachers back then would have turned away an unbeliever if they wanted to come and listen.
"3. According to the statement you quoted: “The book of Acts tells us that Jesus told his disciples to Go Forth and witness to the nation.” Then actually they are supposed to GO OUT, not stay in.
So in a roundabout way your saying we don't have to go to church? What do you think soul winning is? It is going out and giving an invitation to Come and here the message of Jesus Christ, because face it. You have seen it and so have I. You go out and start sharing the Message of Jesus Christ among a group of unbelievers. They will turn you off. You might even get into an unprofitable argument. Now I will say that that is probably one of the many main reasons that the bloody persecutions against christians have slowed to a crawl. We have become closet Christians. "Well I will just go to church on sunday and the rest of the week I will go to work and keep to myself. If I start sharing I will get laughed at" Not saying that it doesn't happen any more because it does, but it is no where near where it was when christianity was still fresh.
"4. You check the facts at say www.barna.com and most people come to faith and church through friends, family, and acquaintances that invite them.
You said “We also deal with the Lost in their own homes.”. That seems to contradict your next statement “So You see in order for the world to hear about jesus and the Gospel to be spread someone has to go to church to listen to the Preacher.” They don’t have to go to church to hear the gospel and they can’t only hear it from a preacher only either.
Anywhere in my post did you see me say that a person can receive Salvation only in a church building? No you didn't. I have known guys to kneel right down in their barracks and repent of their sins and give their lives to Jesus Christ and start serving God, but you know the first thing that they Did? They went to church. To hear more about the Gospels and to learn and to grow and be fed. Maybe the way I type is less to be desired and maybe I do not know how to make sentances understandable and get my point across thru a keyboard and sense that seems to be the case I am sorry you misunderstood me.
God Bless |
nwmomike (nwmomike)
Junior Member
Username: nwmomike
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 207.43.195.205
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 11:39 am: |
|
Sorry. I didn't mean to get you upset. When reading posts on here it's easy to misread someone's intent. I wanted to mainly clarify some things. I probably should have asked questions for clarification than make the assumptions. So I apologize. I'm just getting over a virus for the past 5 days.
But also wasn't following some of the logic as it did seem to contradict the quotations given.
I'm glad you at least told me more of what you intended. I truly didn't mean to upset you. But I wanted for my purpose and others to make sure that it was understood. I too sometimes don't get my intentions across and certainly not the best grammarion. lol
So hope you will accept my apology and maybe we can make sense of each other now. lol Or at least maybe wait until I get over the sniffles and all the rest.
I think we both agree that going to church regularly is true.
What I have a struggle with in my own church is a pastor that makes people feel guilty for going to particular services or every time the door is open. Which is extreme.
At the same time I think we can agree that there are no lone Christians in the sense that God intends us to be alone because scripture shows that we're meant to work together. Although some circumstances allow Christians to be in a postion for a while alone.
Does that make sense?
God Bless You and again I apologize
M or Michael |
seankramer (seankramer)
New member
Username: seankramer
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 4.225.2.229
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
|
O.K. if you have the courage to slander a man like Pastor Fair and post several lies at the same time at least supply a name so I can adress You specifically. |
misty888 (misty888)
New member
Username: misty888
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 67.5.213.57
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
|
There are, what, nearly 5000 Baptist sects?
prozak can make a normal person confused as to wheather they are dreaming or awake. It is very dangerous. In addition it makes it seem like anything you do is just fine. It is very dangerous.
It inspires "Heroic Suicides". It is very dangerous. |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
New member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.92.201
| | Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
|
Most baptist churches today are "free will arminian pelagian" in their theology, which is a departure from their historical theological roots.. most do not realize this though.
There are so many different flavors of baptist out there now, does the term "baptist" even have any disinctives anymore? We have the entire gamut from KJV only baptists to Bapticostals... further proving how apostate most local baptist churches have become over the last century.
From my own personal encounters and experiences with baptists, I have yet to meet one that could give me a proper interpretation of John 3:5.. where Jesus states.. you must be BORN OF WATER AND OF SPIRIT..
Every last baptist I have asked about this verse, what does it really mean, they tell me the water there means the water of natural birth or amniotic fluid. This is prime evidence of how devoid of spiritual interpretation most baptist churches are today.
I have attended baptist churches in the past, but not anymore.. all the ones I have seen have pretty well apostatized into ecumenicalism... or gone legalistic into KJV only type mentality.. sad sad sad..
John Gill and Charles Spurgeon would be aghast if they saw what was going on in most baptist churches today. |
godchild (godchild)
Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 63
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.53.170
| | Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
|
I have not attended a Baptist Church since I was a child. I do have to thank them for their children's classes which helped me to memorize scripture that has been branded on my heart and has seen me through many difficult and great times. My Grandmother took me to her 'free-will baptist church' when I was very young. I found out her and my grandfather left the baptists and joined the Methodist church although I have never learned why.
I cannot join any church that tells me in order to be a member, I must be 'baptized into their church'. My baptism was a very personal thing between my earthly father and my God, (with my children as witnesses). I have no need of being baptized (water) again. |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
New member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.94.239
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 4:20 am: |
|
Well...
Thats another thing about baptists I have found. In many cases they are FAR too quick to have someone go through a "canned sinners prayer" (repeat after me prayers).. get them under the water.. and add them to the flock, without even properly discipling them first as far as what is involved in discipleship, and what actually is involved in following Christ.
I believe the correct title for this methodology without theology is "easy believism", which is way to prevalent in free will churches today. A lot of this goes back to Charles Finney and Dwight L. Moody in their origination of the "alter call", which was popularzied on mass by Billy Graham the ex vacuum clearner salesman turned religious salesman.
I can remember going to this one baptist church in Toronto, quite a well established congregetation, it was in operation for some time. The first service I went to the pastor was going on about how Peter the apostle had "primacy" over the other apostles.. I was scratching my head thinking.. wow this almost sounds like I was back in the roman catholic church. This same preacher a few months later when coming back from his trip to Israel, told the congregation, he would leave some of the water from the "dead sea" in a bowl at the back of the church at the entry exit door. He was leaving it there so we could stick our hand in it to see what the water was like. I know sounds really weird and bizarre, but all I could think of at the time was how weird this pastor was and how it sure feels like I was back in the roman catholic church, you see use so called "holy water" at the entry door as well when you come into their papist churches. They expect you to dip your hand in that water and make the sign of the cross and bless yourself with it. I dunno if that baptist pastor was going roman catholic on the congregation, but it was just so weird like he was a wannabe papist. That was the last baptist church I went to, NOT because of the weird things he was doing or saying, but simply because it was a DEAD church. I had attended a full year and realized I might as well have been sleeping in the pew the whole time I was there, as I would of not missed a thing from the pulpit. Oh yeah he was really big on tithing.. figures.. I have a few more baptists stories but this is enough for now.
Signed.. baptists can be saved out of their dead ritualism and formality just the same as any roman catholic can. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 41
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 5:10 am: |
|
alphaomega,
You describe two separate stages in a Christian's life:
[quote: "get them under the water.. and add them to the flock"]
that's the 1st stage: salvation
-------------------------------
[quote: without even properly discipling them first as far as what is involved in discipleship, and what actually is involved in following Christ."]
& that's the 2nd stage: sanctification
--------------------------------------
(Message edited by curious1 on May 17, 2005) |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
Junior Member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 43
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.93.179
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 8:57 am: |
|
wrong...
getting added to a flock, any flock without the grace of God is NOT salvation, but mere "church membership". Unless you have the grace of God before getting baptised.. is mere formalism and pharisee religion.
I do believe you missed my point totally here.
I am talking about false convesions. Not everyone that is baptised and joins up with a local church is born of god (regenerated). |
friend (friend)
Member
Username: friend
Post Number: 94
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.162.203.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 12:19 pm: |
|
A question: After the story broke about the Waynesville, NC minister excommunicating Kerry supporters, I checked the Southern Baptist website. The church has 405 members according to the site. After the minister did what he did, he left and took about half the church with him...according to several news sources and a former member, that number was 40. So 40 + 40=80, right? So where are the other 320?
I then started looking at the numbers for Baptist churches I knew well. One I know has about 30 people who attend...yet 512 members!
What gives! Are there really as many Baptists in the US as we have been led to believe? Or, are members never taken off the rolls?
Not trying to be critical, just curious.
In Friends Meetings there are usually more people attend than there are members. Our Meeting has about 500 active attenders, but only 400 or so members.
-Friend |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 44
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
|
AlphaOmega,
i do not believe there is such a thing as a false conversion as that would be an attempt to get one over on God and we know that is not possible.
"dunking and adding to the flock" (as you call it) IS the procedure for salvation. we must confess our belief before men (or Jesus will deny us before God); we must then be baptised (for the remission of sins); all that do this are then members of "His flock".
Now as to whether or not any that do this are saved or unsaved scripture tells us how we may discern this for...
"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."-1 John 4:15
and if they confessed this with their mouth at their "dunking" then both scripture and the words that came out of their mouth have affirmed this individual's salvation.
"for whomsoever believeth" is the Gospel in its most simplistic form.
(Message edited by curious1 on May 17, 2005) |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
Member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 52
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.93.206
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
|
curious1...
you are living in LA LA land.. you don't have a clue what the bible teaches about false believers and the synogogue of satan which Jesus Christ condemned in the book of revelation.
You sound like a deluded relgionist full of bible verses in your head but without the spiritual discernment to go along with it, a good indication you are NOT what you claim to be. To begin with "water baptism" is NOT for the remission of sins, but a picture and illustration of it in a human act. If you teach otherwise your a baptismal regenerationist. You give yourself away by your ignorant quotes of the bible.
Even satan can confess Christ, does that make him a believer? wake up... regeneration whereby God the Holy Spirit makes someone a believer in christ is NOT based on confession of christ anyways. confession is the result of that gift of life in regeneration, so here again your err confessing your lack of illumination on what is salvation exactly.
Are you so naive like the most of professing unsaved christendom to believe just because you confess Christ with your mouth that that automatically makes them a born from above christian??? I believe you are guilty of the very thing I am addressing.. dunking and adding.. easy believism.
You state, I quote: "dunking and adding to the flock" (as you call it) IS the procedure for salvation. we must confess our belief before men (or Jesus will deny us before God); we must then be baptised (for the remission of sins); all that do this are then members of "His flock".
You speak of salvation as a PROCEDURE.. you talk like a pharisee who thinks he can talk his way into salvation. I doubt you have a clue about the "imputed" righteousness of Jesus Christ judge to the sinners account at the cross and freely given and "imparted righteousness" in regeneration.
How sad for people like you, you have a FORM of christianity but what evidence do you give of even being saved when you speak with such assumption and ignorance???
REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND!!!! JESUS CHRIST IS COMING SOON. |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
Member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 53
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.93.206
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
|
WOE unto unregenerate baptist who think they will enter the kingdom of heaven without the "effectual call of the Holy Spirit" upon their lives. These pharisees tell you just quote Romans 10:13...
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shal be saved".. and your in grace and going to heaven.
Woe unto pharisee baptist religionists who dunk and add to the flock, WITHOUT evidence of grace in a persons life. Even the ethiopean eunuch in the book of acts who was a new convert was challenged in his understanding of scripture. Once he was instructed and accepted the teaching of philip, he was baptized but NOT without being challenged first to see whether he understand the scriptures.
Woe unto baptists who make thier churches into goatbarns and arenas with hot tubs and bowling alleys and stageshows for entertainment, for they have no clue about the holiness and separation of God from sin. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 9:35 pm: |
|
note: [>>>>> = AlphaOmega]
To begin with "water
> baptism" is NOT for the remission of sins,
Acts 2:38,
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins..."
but a picture and
> illustration of it in a human act.
pictures that say a thousand words are nice but all the pictures in the world are useless unless "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."-Matthew 10:32
>If you teach otherwise
Ok, since you asked, I'll give you the therwise: "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."-Matthew 10:33
> Even satan can confess Christ,
That is as against Satan's nature as it is against God's nature to forgive him. Your specious comparison is dead long before it has a chance to pale.
>does that make him a believer?
IF he could (and he can't) and if God forgave him (which He can't) then, yes, it would.
>the Holy Spirit makes someone a believer in christ
First, we have Jesus' saving sacrifice. And, now, you say who also has to additionally do what in order for one to be saved?
>is NOT based on confession of christ anyways.
Romans 10:9, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
well, i'm certain the bible is correct..
> confession is the result of that gift of life in regeneration,
no, it's the other way around, the gift of life is the result of that statement of confession
Romans 10:9, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
>just because you confess Christ with your mouth that that automatically makes them a born from above christian???
that appears to be exactly what it says..."That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
> You speak of salvation as a PROCEDURE..
step 1: by faith i confess my belief
step 2: Jesus saves
uh, yup, that does indeed look like a procedure and that's exactly what it says, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."-John 3:15
> about the "imputed" righteousness of Jesus Christ judge to the sinners
> account at the cross and freely given and "imparted righteousness" in
> regeneration.
i doubt you're Jewish so try not to get too hung up too long on that which was pre-eminently Jewish as it will just run you through that useless old legalshmeegle wringer endangering your future well-being as you slowly drown in a bunch of useless philosophical neo-calvinist rantings. If they were such hot stuff we wouldn't need the scriptures. |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
Member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 60
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.55.252
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 10:49 pm: |
|
curious_religious1 should be your designated name, its more correct, your quite a pharisee by our own admission... you post many bible verses you do not have a clue about, by what you state.. lets deal with one at a time..
Acts 2:38,
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins..."
Lets examine this verse, which I am sure I am wasting my breath on for you, your so deluded by your sacrament and works righteousness understanding of grace. I will post the truth for benefit of others who read this as a warning.
In Acts 2:38 it states.. FOR the remission of sins in relatin to baptism. What does this mean? Does water baptism actually confer the grace of forgiveness and and make one a regenerated christian? I say no, you say yes.. we cannot be both right. The greek word for FOR in acts 2:38 in relation to "FOR the forgiveness of sins" is the greek word "eis", which can also be rightly translated and better translated as BECAUSE OF, which is the more corret translation. So a variant and more correct translation of ACTS 2:38 would be , repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ BECAUSE OF the remission of sins..."
So just because you take a poor translation like the KJV and try to build your sacramental theology around it, gives your theology no creedance whatsoever. The apostles would NEVER ever have baptized someone as a condition of salvation let alone as a vehicle of regeneration or grace. But you on the other hand try to sneek in your apostate teachings on easy believism of baptismal regeneration.
You quote further proving you do not have a clue about what saving faith is or the gospel thereof.. IF YOU did you wouldnt make such specious statements as you so foolishly accuse me of.. such as..
> confession is the result of that gift of life in regeneration,
no, it's the other way around, the gift of life is the result of that statement of confession
WRONG WRONG WRONG.. IT IS YOU who have the order of salvation wrong.. since when is man the originator of his salvation and who calls whom first? Is man the originator of his salvation? NOOOO it is God who calls the christian by the "effectual call of the Holy Spirit"... Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice" in johns gospel, so noooo you do not have a clue what you are talking about, you can confess Christ all you want and till your blue in the face, it makes not one iota of a difference IF God has not called you first by the HOLY SPIRIT.. who I might add is God also and has a role to play in your salvation, something you dont mention one bit here in our discussion of soteriology.
you further quote:
step 1: by faith i confess my belief
step 2: Jesus saves
uh, yup, that does indeed look like a procedure and that's exactly what it says, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."-John 3:15
WRONG WRONG WRONG.. YOU ERR.. the correct order is...
step 1: Jesus saves
step 2: by faith i confess my belief
.. so you have the order of salvation backwards.. God never ever saved somebody because of "decisional regeneration", the teaching that you can be saved whenever you want, however you want at your own time when you decide. I could give so many scriptures to prove this, but i think I am wasting my time with you, a religionist.
NO wonder cults abound, people like you with understanding devoid of grace, yet you attack and accuse me of the same thing your are guilty of, no wonder paul said in romans 2 .. OH MAN.. |
curious1 (curious1)
Junior Member
Username: curious1
Post Number: 50
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 70.185.109.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2005 - 11:30 pm: |
|
there is so much bassakwards profanity, inanity and immaturity it truly is not worth the effort. |
friend (friend)
Member
Username: friend
Post Number: 96
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.162.203.195
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 8:18 am: |
|
Alpha wrote: "curious_religious1 should be your designated name, its more correct, your quite a pharisee by our own admission... you post many bible verses you do not have a clue about, by what you state.. lets deal with one at a time.."
But the Pharisees were the fundamentalists of Jesus time. They studied the Torah and knew all the "right beliefs" and laws. Yet, they were arrogant, hateful, boastful and condemned others who didn't follow the law to the letter.
Jesus came to give life to the letter...to give Spirit! It is not so much what you believe in but WHOM you believe in that is important. A simple faith in Jesus and a heart for compassion is all ya need. Listen...that "still small voice" will tell you everything you need to know for "the law is written on men's hearts."
Peace,
Friend |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
Member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 68
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.93.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:31 pm: |
|
I read what you said "friend"... I could say lots but I will leave you with this link to a book online to ponder... you say lets just stick with simple faith. I say there is no such thing. True biblical divine faith, is more than just personal subjective feelings and personal assurance about your faith in God, it is ALSO a system of doctrinal truth, the doctrine and teaching of Christ as the apostel john points out in his epistle as well as JUDE.. here what Jude writes..."you should earnestly contend FOR THE FAITH, which was once delivered unto the saints." Jude 3
Read this booklet and tell me if there is such a thing as so called "simple faith". Arminian FREE WILL pelagian religionists always talk about "simple faith". Such is subterfuge and deception to cover up that fact that such who believe so, do not have a clue about "objective doctrine" that christ and the apostles preached. Read this booklet and tell me if there is such a thing as "simple faith" as you claim.
http://gospelgrace.com/webest/SimpleFaithAMisnomer.html |
alphaomega (alphaomega)
Member
Username: alphaomega
Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 207.112.93.172
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
|
I was just re reading the thread above,in particular what curious1 posted and what I replied in return.
Lets not be confused about what is and what is NOT true doctrine and teaching in relation to the study of salvation (soteriology).
Curious1 you are guilty as charged on two counts, you willfully promote, the heresy of "Decisional Regeneration" and "Baptismal Rengeneration". You think you will be saved on account of your profession alone along with water baptism added unto it.
Everyone on this thread would be wise to read ALL of the following:
13 Things a Lost Person Cannot Do
by Curtis A. Pugh
http://users.aol.com/libcfl/13.htm
That the lost sinner must cast himself wholly on the mercy and grace of God must be obvious to those who read and believe the Scriptures. But the Bible knows nothing of such foolish man-made ideas as "praying the sinner's prayer", or "making a decision for Christ", or "inviting Jesus into your heart" or "going forward to receive Christ." No New Testament preacher ever used such terms or tactics! To tell spiritually dead sinners that there is something they can do to bring about their salvation is damnable heresy for by its false hope sinners are taught to trust in what they have done rather in Christ who has done all.
Consider these thirteen spiritual things an unsaved person cannot do:
1. HE CANNOT THINK AS GOD DOES:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
2. HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND GOD:
". . . thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself . . ." (Psalm 50:21)
"Canst thou by searching find out God? Canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? Deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" (Job 11:7-8)
3. HE CANNOT SEE SPIRITUAL THINGS:
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)
4. HE CANNOT KNOW HIS OWN HEART:
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
5. HE CANNOT PROPERLY DIRECT HIS OWN PATHS:
"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." (Jeremiah 10:23)
"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." (Proverbs 14:12)
6. HE CANNOT FREE HIMSELF FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW:
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10)
7. HE CANNOT RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT:
"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not . . ." (John 14:17)
8. HE CANNOT HEAR (receive & understand) GOD'S WORDS:
"He that is of God heareth God's words; ye therefore hear them not because ye are not of God." (John 8:47)
"But the natural (unsaved) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned." (1Corinthians 2:14)
9. HE CANNOT BIRTH HIMSELF INTO THE FAMILY OF GOD:
"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God." (John 1:13)
"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:15-16)
10. HE CANNOT PRODUCE REPENTANCE AND FAITH IN CHRIST:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (faith) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
". . . for all men have not faith." (2 Thessalonians 3:2)
"For unto you it is given . . . to believe on him . . ." (Philippians 1:29)
". . . if God peradventure will give them repentance . . ." (2 Timothy 2:25)
". . . to them that have obtained like precious faith with us . . ." (2 Peter 1:1)
11. HE CANNOT COME TO CHRIST:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him . . . Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:44, 65)
12. HE CANNOT BELIEVE ON CHRIST:
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep as I said unto you." (John 10:26)
13. HE CANNOT PLEASE GOD:
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. . . . So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Romans 8:5, 8, 9)
SO THEN, MANKIND IS SHUT UP TO THE FACT OF HIS OWN TOTAL INABILITY TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT HIS LOST CONDITION.
In the light of these things which a spiritually dead (lost) sinner cannot do, how then do we account for the command of God to all men to repent? The Bible does state that God ". . . now commandeth all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). What do we do about the counsel of God to men which says they are to believe on Christ? Would God command and instruct men to do that which they cannot do?
We answer an emphatic "Yes!" Our proof is the holy Law of God given to Moses on Mount Sinai. While there was nothing wrong with God's Law, no man is able to keep those commandments (1 Timothy 1:8; Romans 8:3). No man ever kept the Law of God and yet God was right to give it to man and command its keeping! By that Law we see ourselves as sinners (Romans 3:20). That was the purpose of the Law!
While God requires repentance (the will to turn from sin) and faith (the will to believe in Christ), no man is able of himself to do either. Thus, as with the Law, man is forced to see that there is nothing good in him and that he cannot repent and believe savingly in Jesus Christ.
Throughout the Bible God's children recognize their own inability to do anything to save themselves. In addition to the portions previously quoted in this tract, consider the following statements:
". . . I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." (Romans 7:18)
"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." (Mark 9:24)
". . . I am shut up, and I cannot come forth." (Psalm 88:8)
"Turn us. O God of our salvation . . ." (Psalm 85:4)
" . . . Turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God." (Jeremiah 31:18)
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our riqhteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee . . ." (Isaiah 64:6, 7)
". . . Salvation is of the LORD" (Jonah 2:9).
Those who think that they can properly repent of their own ability and savingly believe of their own faith fall into error. They trust in their own ability and not in the saving work of Jesus Christ! Is not this true of those who boast of their past sins and their turning from them? Do they not claim that they did it themselves? Repeatedly we hear this in their popular "testimony meetings." Some are willing to share the glory and admit that they had a little help from God, but even this is wicked confidence in the flesh. And do not some religionists boast of their faith as if it was some great thing worthy of reward? Faith (confidence) in my faith or in my turning to God is not ". . . the faith of God's elect." (Titus 1:1)
Paul wrote concerning true children of God, ". . . We . . . worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." (Philippians 3:3). To trust in anything done in the flesh (human nature and strength) is to have "confidence in the flesh." To trust in your prayer, your baptism, your goodness, your faith or any experience you may have had is to have confidence in the flesh and not to trust in Christ. The faith and confidence of the true believer is in Christ! Those born of God trust not in rituals, sacraments, good works, their own repentance or their faith in Christ, but rather in Christ alone!
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith . . ." (2 Corinthians 13:5). Are you trusting in your faith or are you trusting in Christ? What is the object of your faith? Do you really see that all your "righteousnesses are as filthy rags"? (Isaiah 64:6). Have you seen that you deserve Hell? Are you willing to take your place as a sinner and if God sends you to Hell will you say He is just, fair, and righteous to do so? Or do you think yourself unworthy of eternal punishment?
Consider these words from the old English Baptist Gadsby Hymnal.
O beware of trust ill-grounded;
'Tis but fancied faith at most,
To be cured, and not be wounded:
To be saved before you're lost.
Have you never been wounded by the Word of God so that your sins have been laid bare? Have you never been lost--that is, have you seen yourself as hopelessly lost and a Hell-deserving sinner? How can you think yourself saved if you have never been lost? Jesus said, ". . . I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Mark 2:17). If a sinner, surely the Scriptures cited in this tract have shown that you are helpless to do anything about your terrible lost condition!
Salvation is free and comes, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us . . ." (Titus 3:5). Look to Jesus Christ, who has done all things necessary and possible, "for he shall save his people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21).
May God give you grace to see yourself as He does, and may He give you the twin gifts of ". . . repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21) so that you are ". . . not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Hebrews 10:39).
[end of document] |
friend (friend)
Intermediate Member
Username: friend
Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.162.203.195
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 8:36 am: |
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Alpha,
You are free to believe anything you want about doctrine, dogma, etc.
As for me, I just feel in love with Jesus. And that, my friend, is all I need.
Peace,
Friend |
friend (friend)
Intermediate Member
Username: friend
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.162.203.195
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 10:11 am: |
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Alpha,
One more thing. I grew up in a home that taught Calvinism much the way you seem to understand it. The debate over doctrinal fine points was constant. You should be at my family reunion with my hyper-Calvinist family debating my hardcore confessional Lutheran family on double predestination. It was our family's favorite pasttime.
After going to college and realizing that I knew Calvinist/Arminian/Lutheran doctrine like the back of my hand but had never had an experience with Jesus, I prayed for an experience such as I read about in the pages of the Bible.
It was then that the "still small voice" spake to me and said clearly, "beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." It was not important to know how or why or anything else. I realized that I am not God and cannot speak for God.
Anyway, you take good care and stay away from those theonomists within the Calvinist household of faith...they'll through the law at ya' (just a joke).
Peace,
Friend |
in_recovery (in_recovery)
New member
Username: in_recovery
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 67.82.230.186
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:20 am: |
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My marrige has been destroyed by a Fundemantal Religous Cult in Howell NJ. The "Pastor" known as "Rev". He teaches some really old fashion stuff about women and what Christ wants a wife to be. My husband and some of the other men seized on this and I saw some really ugly stuff happen. One man lost his wife and children because he became a dictator and his wife would not "submit" to him "as Christ commanded". He went really crazy for a while but now seems pretty much recovered. My own marrige is now just a shadow of what it once was. It has been terrible for me and my two girls. But after 25 years of marrige, I think I should try to save things before I completely give up.
Does anyone know of some kind of marrige help. We saw a marrige counsler once but it turned into a terrible fight. The counsler did't have a clue about the damage done by mind control. If I can't turn this relationship into a partner ship like it once was, then it will have to end. How sad!} |
msmithluvnlife (msmithluvnlife)
New member
Username: msmithluvnlife
Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 165.247.82.161
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 4:14 am: |
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Hello Everyone:
I just had to chime in on the topic of Baptist church sects. Bear with me on this: I was reared in an "independent, fundamental, Bible-believing, Baptist church that stands without apology for the absolute authority of the Bible, where old-fashioned people, still worship God in the old-fashioned way, wer'e against modernism, liberalism, neo-evangelicalism, use only the KJV (1611, authorized edition,) dont use that worldly, carnal contemporary music, and have no fellowhsip with 'the unfruitful works of darkness,' therefore, we only have ties and fellowship with those who believe the way we do, and wont fellowship with those that we think have capitualated to the enemey - if their not rock-ribbed, fire-breathing fundamentalists then we wont fellowship with them. In essence we isolate ourselves from everyone in Christianity, and most all of those within our own camp who claim to be fundamentalists.'
This may seem a little extreme, but it is exactly how I was reared in a Baptist church in Northern Maryland. I was negatively impacted by this sort of tyranny, and have a number of issues that I had to work through in my life because of the abuse.
I must say, that the Lord drew me back to Himself in 2003, after 7 years of being agnostic. Prior to this, I had experiemented with other churches. I believe that the Scripture is divinely inspired by God, and all the cardinal affirmations of the historic,Christian faith. I am biblically ecumenical, and am not ashamed to associate with believers of different sects and labels. God has saved us to serve Him and make us holy like His Son. For those whos objective is to love and serve Him, in faith, and who affirm the essential foundations of Christianity, I whole-heartedly affirm our fellowship!
I know that not all Baptist churches are like the one I grew up in. I just want to warn people before they join any church to check it out real thoroughly before becoming a contributing member. You may save yourself alot of heartache, stress, and unneeded hurt. 'May the Lord Jesus Messiah, who atoned for our sins, and rose from the dead according to the Scriptures be our joy and hope both now, and forevermore.' Amen. |
sharon (sharon)
Intermediate Member
Username: sharon
Post Number: 341
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 142.177.82.9
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 7:23 am: |
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msmithluvnlife .. I am so glad that you came to know the Lord again, and I think it has made you into a strong Christian. I loved your message and agree wholeheartedly.
It was much harder for you as you were born into that situation. I thank you for your warning, as there are more wolves in sheeps clothing out there.
I was born again 25 years ago and since I had no faith before I had to choose a church, My Father impressed upon me to stay out of the churchs but I did not think he really meant it as I was sailing so high on the being saved I wanted to share it with the world. I ran from chruch to chruch and the Lord showed me each and every time why I should not be there. I was not hurt just had my eyes opened. I finally obeyed.
THen after twenty five years he sent me back and I went to a chuch I could walk to. I live in a small village. THe church is baptist one week and United the next. THere is next to no one left in the pews but the choir sings like angels and gives me great joy.
THese baptist are nice, born again. But I still go to other churches time to time. I love to stand with anyone and sing Gods praises, many do not understand this and think it wrong. THey do not know that the Lord loves to hear us sing even with those of other faiths, and off key.
Thank you again for a wonderful message as it was just what I needed today. |
msmithluvnlife (msmithluvnlife)
New member
Username: msmithluvnlife
Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 165.247.86.102
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 7:08 pm: |
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This was why I shared my personal story. Because I want to bless other people. There is truly no greater joy in my life then making someone's day better! Thanks for reading, and THANK YOU for being sensitive to His Precious Holy Spirit! |
faith_baptist__the_cult (faith_baptist__the_cult)
New member
Username: faith_baptist__the_cult
Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2005
Posted From: 70.250.209.10
| | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 1:57 am: |
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seankramer ---- this is for u!
PLEASE! As a brother in Christ I Implore you to get out of that church. You defend this man you call pastor, as rightly a congregation should love and support their pastor, but honestly at least half or more of what is said (even from the pulpit) is heresy. Pastor J Arnold Fair of Faith Baptist Church in Angola Indiana is truly teaching lies. I say this not to slander your pastor, or anger you, but that in hopes that you will search out the things that he is teaching. So many things are taken out of context. I don't believe he means badly, and I think he truly believes that he is teaching truth, but so much of it is error. As Christians we are set free from the bonds of legalism and the strict adherance to the law that we see so often portrayed by the Pharasees in New Testament. Please my brother, seek God's grace and as hard as it is (in fact, I'd almost say impossible) find another good church in the area that will help you to grow in the Grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
May God richly bless you |
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