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Admin (Admin)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 7:45 am: | 
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To see the old discussions, please click on the archives above. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 12:44 pm: |
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Hi. I am searching around for some meaning in my life? I believe I have a soul but i'm not sure and don't want to fall for crap.
Any ideas?
What is this all about?
Are you the guys with the black hats? |
ashley
| | Posted on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 7:45 pm: |
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Hello. My name is Ashley Ingoldsby, and I'm a 16 year old Mormon girl. Mormonism is a form of Christianity. Joseph Smith compiled this list of beliefs of Mormonism called the thirteen articles of faith:
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated ccorrectly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
you may want to visit http://www.lds.org for a list of basic beliefs or principles of the gospel.
To answer your question no... we are not the guys with the black hats, but I totally believe in this church, and i encourage you to investigate it. Pray for help in your faith. God will guide you. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 10:58 am: |
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Hi Ashley
Your list was very interesting. I am always interested in learning new things. I have some serious questions and comments about the 13 principles of your religion.
I had always thought that the literal gathering of Israel (Jews) would take place in Jerusalem, Israel. Number 10 says that Zion will be built upon the American continent. Does this mean that the in-gathering of Jews will happen somewhere in America rather than in Israel?
Will Christ be the Jewish king or everybody’s king?
Number 3 is difficult for me to reconcile to 11 and 13. Number 11 says you will let all men worship as they please. Number 13 says that other men may be honest, true, chaste, benevolent, and virtuous (since you seek after these things, other people must possess them also). So, 11 and 13 together says that men may worship differently than you and have different beliefs than you and may still be good and virtuous. Then Number 3 says that atonement of man can only come from obedience to the laws of your religion. Does this mean that men that worship differently from you can be good and virtuous, but still can not be saved?
What does “Laying on Hands” mean? What is the process? Does a person have to be ordained to do it?
In Number 6, what does the Primitive church refer to?
At Number 8, you state that the Bible must be translated correctly. Since the Bible was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic, then would you believe that your minister must be fluent in these languages?
Thanks in advance for your responses. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 4:47 pm: |
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Ashely forgot to mention a few other things.
1 Mormons believe Jesus is a spirit brother of Lucifer.
2 Mormons believe if you don't become a Mormon you will never reach "celestial" heaven.
3 Mormons believe they will become "gods" after they die and rule planets.
4 Mormons believe they will continue to have children after they die.
5 Mormons believe you need to be married in their church by their "authorities" before you can be saved.
6 Mormons believe God was once a man and became a God.
7 Mormons believe they are the ONLY true church on earth.
There are many other things about Mormonism you may be interested to know.
Read the posts in the archives before making Mormonism your choice. |
ashley
| | Posted on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 8:54 pm: |
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We do believe that there will be a literal gathering of saints (not only Mormons, but all righteous followers of Christ, and righteous men) on the American continent. I will look into this question further and try and find out more about it.
At the second coming Christ will be the king of us all. He loves us all, and will lead us all.
There are many good and virtous people of every faith. We believe that ALL people will one day have the chance to receive the gospel of Christ, and have the opportunity to accept His gift. Many people of countless religions are good people, and could be Christ's greatest diciples yet they've never had the opportunity due to circumstance. For example there are people in countries who are not able to worship freely and may never hear Christ's gospel, or those who have simply turned away from it without first learning the teachings or feeling the spirit of Jesus. We believe that if people die without this knowledge, they will be taught Christ's gospel after death and then be given the chance to accept Him.
Docterine and Covenants 138:32 "Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets."
35:"And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross."
Once these spirits are taught they will then have the choice to follow the Savior, or not accept His gospel. Heavenly Father is just and will give everyone a fair chance to learn the gospel. We will all be given the opportunity to be saved.
Docterine and Covenants section 137:7-10
7:Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8:Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9:For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10:And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.
Many religions are good and bring much benefit to their people. We want to respect and love them all, because they are all just like us... trying to do what's right
"Laying on of hands" is the process by which a person receives the constant companion of the Holy Ghost. It is a blessing given by someone who has been ordained and has the proper authority.
In article of faith 6 "the primitive church" refers to God's church, when Christ was on the earth. The structure of the LDS church is the same as that of the church as it was when Christ Himself organized it, having a living prophet, apostles, teachers...
God's church must be organized, and we believe His church's structure should not have changed from historically up to today.
In article of faith 8 I stated we believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly... We use The King James version of the Bible because it has been least modified, and we believe its teachings to be true, although not all the wording may be as it was in its original languages or contexts. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 10:02 pm: |
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KJV Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgement. |
Yaakov
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 1:12 pm: |
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]1 Mormons believe Jesus is a spirit brother of Lucifer. 2 Mormons believe if you don't become a Mormon you will never reach "celestial" heaven. 3 Mormons believe they will become "gods" after they die and rule planets. 4 Mormons believe they will continue to have children after they die. 5 Mormons believe you need to be married in their church by their "authorities" before you can be saved. 6 Mormons believe God was once a man and became a God. 7 Mormons believe they are the ONLY true church on earth.
To make things easier, I will now always post under the pseudonym of Yaakov. Two of the seven points that you mention are similar to all Christianity. Number 2, believe as our church does or you won’t get to Heaven. Number 7, our church is the only true church, all the others are wrong. Number 6 seems to agree at least a third with Christianity, i.e. a third of God was a man, a third was a spirit, and a third was, well, God. |
Yaakov
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 1:13 pm: |
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Ashley, to make things more easier, I will now always post under the pseudonym of Yaakov. Since I don’t know how to indent on this board, I will use the “]” to indicate quotes from other people.
]We do believe that there will be a literal gathering of saints (not only Mormons, but all righteous followers of Christ, and righteous men) on the American continent. I will look into this question further and try and find out more about it.
Please do, your response just confused me more. First you posted Number 10 as “We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes”, then you say above “a literal gathering of saints”. Well, which is it? Israel usually means the Jews. I would assume the saints, are saints within your religion. I’m confused, just who will be gathered?
In addition, you say “righteous followers of Christ AND righteous men”. The word “and” means that a man can be righteous without accepting Christ. So, why would such a man need Christ? If they were righteous, then they would go to Heaven. If they can’t go to Heaven, without Christ, then what was the point of being righteous?
]Once these spirits are taught they will then have the choice to follow the Savior, or not accept His gospel. Heavenly Father is just and will give everyone a fair chance to learn the gospel. We will all be given the opportunity to be saved.
Again, why does a righteous man need to be saved? If a righteous person still needs to follow the Savior to get to Heaven, then what was the point of being righteous?
]9:For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
Oooh, this is interesting. God will judge all men ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. Ashley, notice it doesn’t mention a man’s faith. So, your own quotes seem to support the idea that believing in your Savior is unnecessary. Being righteous is enough.
]"Laying on of hands" is the process by which a person receives the constant companion of the Holy Ghost. It is a blessing given by someone who has been ordained and has the proper authority.
Is this like a guardian angel? What does this mean? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 4:51 pm: |
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Yaakov you are wrong concerning the beliefs of Mormons/Christians. In your post 1:12 PM you said
"Two of the seven points you mentioned are similiar to all Christianity. Number 2 believe as our church does or you won't get to heaven. Number 7 Our church is the only true church, all others are wrong. Number 6 seem to agree at least a third with Christianity a third of God was a man a third was spirit and a third was well God."
No where in the bible (which is the book real Christians believe in) does it say God is a man. He is spirit.
Only a cultist group would say "Our church is the only true church, all others are wrong."
You don't have to believe every single thing of a particular church to be saved. Your relationship with Christ is the determining factor not your relationship with a church.
For this reason the Mormon Church and Christianity is different. |
Yaakov
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 11:53 am: |
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In my previous post, I was sloppy and used the word “all”. Like “never”, that is a word that I try to avoid.
However, I stand by the gist of my previous statement. Your own response proves it. Number 2 paraphrased says “believe as our church does or you won’t get to Heaven”. Your response was “your relationship with Christ is the determining factor”. So, if a person does not believe in Christ at all (i.e. Muslims, Buddhist, Atheist, etc.), then you are saying “You must accept our deity to get to Heaven.”
]Only a cultist group would say "Our church is the only true church, all others are wrong."
But, aren’t you saying, “our religion is the only true religion, all the others are wrong”? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 3:46 pm: |
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I suppose you are here to start an argument with anyone who posts. So since you are going to question everything that is posted, pro or con I think this discussion is over.
And by the way Christ is the only way!! |
Yaakov
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 3:57 pm: |
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]I suppose you are here to start an argument with anyone who posts. So since you are going to question everything that is posted, pro or con. I think this discussion is over.
And by the way Christ is the only way!!
I am here to learn and to teach. It is regrettable that you seem to view questions as arguments. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 8:28 pm: |
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Yaakov,
mormons believe that when anyone accepts their religion which they believe to be the true gospel of Christ, that they are adopted into the house of Isreal. When they are baptised and make covenants with God, they then become part of his "covenant people". So they don't really use that word "Isreal" to mean the jews. That's why Ashley sounded confusing.
And to address this mess of incomplete thoughts:
]1 Mormons believe Jesus is a spirit brother of Lucifer.
This neglects to include that Mormons believe that we are all spirit brothers and sisters of a Heavenly Father. So as Jesus is one of God's spirit children his "begotten son" this makes him in some way a brother to every spirit ever created. The way the poster put it above makes it sound like Mormons level or equate Jesus with Satan. I understand Mormons to believe that before anyone was born on the earth, we all had been born as spirits and were living with God. So, before Jesus was perfect enough to become God, and before Satan regected God completely and became evil, they were brothers.
]2 Mormons believe if you don't become a Mormon you will never reach "celestial" heaven.
I too see this as very comparable to most religion's beliefs. Mormons are actually a little more liberal in this regard than most Christians as normal christians believe that if you don't "accept Christ" your completely out of luck in the next life, even if you never heard of him or had a chance. Mormons believe that even people who never hear of him in this life will be taught about him after this life before the judgement and God being just will give everyone an opportunity so all will truly be judged on an equal playing field.
]3 Mormons believe they will become "gods" after they die and rule planets.
Mormons don't believe that when you get to heaven you enjoy immediate perfection and just learn to play the harp. They believe in eternal progression which when you combine eternity with the idea of always progressing, you can see how the idea of someday creating a planet doesn't seem that wierd to them.
]Mormons believe they will continue to have children after they die.
Again, eternally creating...
]5 Mormons believe you need to be married in their church by their "authorities" before you can be saved.
Yes, they do think their marraiges are superior, but they believe that people who die with out an official church marraige will be given the opportunity.
}6 Mormons believe God was once a man and became a God.
This is what I know to be a sort of philisophical idea or speculation from Brigham Young. This is a popular mormon belief and something that anti-mormons like to get all fired up about. I think I've heard anti mormons bring it up more than mormons. I don't see it as an official church doctrine. It's quite different from the normal Christian idea of incarnation as Yaakov stated. It's just the idea that if we are always progressing and God is in a perfect state of progress always far above us, what does this logically philisophically mean about the past, well, maybe that God was once as we are now.
]7 Mormons believe they are the ONLY true church on earth.
They believe they are the only completely true church, but that most churches have some truth.
I used to be Mormon, by the way, just thought I'd clarify a bit. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 1:47 am: |
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big deal |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2003 - 9:53 am: |
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Mormons are not crazier than the rest of us. People have their imaginations and religious preferences, why not? At least they do some good things for others. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 6:24 am: |
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HI!Im amazed to of found this website but ecstatic to say all the same.I was in the Mormon Church for 8 years and i learnt that they are the biggest manmade law run church in the world.Great sucking in methods to all and im sorry they put a price on your salvation and dictate that like myself i am going to hell because i was excommunicated unless i rejoin their sect etc.They are a cult and did u know Joseph Smith was a free mason.hello out there it was all a scam and a sad scam at that.They are a cult and very much run by satan and you dont even know it though.I will pray for the mormons because i am free from their man made laws chains and bounds of bullshit. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2003 - 2:56 pm: |
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Hi, Glad you can see what the Mormon church really is. It's difficult for people to know this is a cult when they are still in it. And it certainly is a cult. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 2:08 am: |
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Poor sweet Ashley. She was tossing her pearls to swine. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 3:09 pm: |
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The Mormon church has no pearls, only fools gold. |
Amelia Jones
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2003 - 8:33 pm: |
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The Mormon church is not a cult. In fact, it is officially listed under religion in the big official book that clarifys which sects are religions and which are cults. I'm sorry that you were excommunicated, but that doesn't mean that you are going to hell. Excommunication is a blessing and opportunity for redemption by freeing you from the responsiblities that you have as a baptized, confirmed and (males only) ordained member. It give you the opportunity to rethink your position and where you stand. The only sin associated with excommunication that could condemn you to hell would be if you had received direct revelation from the Holy Spirit that the Church is true and then denied it. As for those of you who believe that this church is damning all those who don't believe its doctrine you are wrong. We believe that men will be held accountable for their own actions according to the knowledge they have received while on this Earth. We believe that God is our loving father, both literally and figurativley. No just and loving parent with a perfect knowledge would punish their child for doing something wrong when they didn't know it was wrong. Likewise He will not punish you for not doing something you didn't know you were supposed to do. Yes, Mormons believe that marriage in the temple by the proper authorities for time and all eternity is nececessary for the highest order of celestial salvation-but only if you are a member of the Church. In no way do we think that people who have had a civil or otherwise nontemple marriage are damned. It's not their belief, they don't have to follow it. Heck, we don't have to follow it, the only difference is that we have a consequence attached to not following. You need to do your research before you make accusation about a religion, especially the fastest growing religion in the world. Questions are always welcome, accusations and false statements are not. (Note: Bitter former members are not exactly an accurate source of information as many are negativley biased towards the Church and throughout history have been known to exaggerate, mistate, or flat out lie about the it.) |
Glenn Anderson
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 6:21 pm: |
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I am just a temporary guest on this site ... passing through after having read most of the messages on this string, and I would like to leave a comment for everyone to ponder.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ can only be taught... it can not be argued, or forced upon any other person. To attempt to do so is merely a waste of time that could be expended in the harvesting of souls, wherein the seeds of truth have been sown, have fallen upon fertile ground and are now ripe for the harvest.
It is especially difficult to teach those that proclaim themselves to be "learned men" ... for assuredly they have already convinced themselves that only their view of things can possibly be correct and they endlessly argue to that point.
It takes a truely humble person to be taught the Gospel, someone who is willing to listen, and to ask pertinate questions without condemnation before obtaining a full explanation to those same questions.
Even so, it still takes more than that. It takes getting down on ones knees and asking of the Lord for themselves, to reveal to them through the power of the Holy Spirit, as is promised to them in James 1:5, if or not what they have learned is true.
In this fashion, the Lord will provide each individual with an unshakeable testimony of the Gospel, and answers to their questions that become a part of that personal, unshakeable, testimony.
It is true, as someone mentioned, that an "ex-anything" of any religion, makes the worst possible person to consult with in regard to anything to do with that religion, in that they usually have a very personal"bone to pick" over some point of doctrine to which they did not personally understand or subscribe as a former member.
The biggest mistake that is being made on forums such as this, is the fact that they even exist in the first place. While the First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech, please be aware that it also guarantees freedom of religion. But there are higher laws, contained in the Scriptures - one of which condemns those who choose to condemn their fellowman.
If you choose to judge your fellowman by the color of thier skin, or the country in which they were born, or their personal choice of religion, then you can expect to one day be judged exactly in the same manner that you have chosen to judge others.
There is but one true manner in which we might judge others, that the Lord himself set before us as the greatest of all His commandments, that we Love him with all of our heart, and that we love our neighbors in a similar manner - He makes no exceptions - we are to love even our enemies - and he quantifes and qualifies our love for Him by noting that those who are his true disciples are easily identifed by one thing - they keep His Commandments.
Therefore, there is no room for arguement, or for strife among one another among those who profess themselves to be "Christians" or true disciples of Christ ...
There is however, a lot of room for seeking the truth in all things, for taking those things concerning matters of either your own religion or the religious beliefs of others before the Lord, as HE has commanded, and for choosing to do that which is right after that which is right has been revealed to you as none other than the Lord Himself has assured you that it will be revealed unto you.
And do not think that the way is easy - remember the story of the rich young man that came to the Lord, and after being admonished to do thus and so, told the Lord that he had already done all of these things, and asked what more he might do in order to be accepted of the Lord as one of his disciples ... and after he was told to divest himself of all his worldly posessions and follow the Lord, he sadly went away ...
Similarly, many who read this message will likewise sadly go away ... for they will tightly hold to that which they will find it more to their personal liking to continue to believe in that which they have consumed by formal education or traditon, rather than to take the few moments to humble themselves before the Lord and ask of Him the questions that trouble their minds.
God bless you all as you work out the matters of your mortal probation. You each have time to listen and to learn and to study and to pray and to achieve a personal testimony of the truth of the Gospel - if you don't waste it arguing with one another and creating mischief and dissent among your fellow man ... |
anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 11:07 pm: |
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Is it true that mormon dogma is that, through spiritual progression, we could all become perfect like Christ? Then we could be perfect like God and rule our own planet? Is it mormon belief that God was once a man, on another planet, who became perfect ( a God, not the God) and created this world? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2003 - 1:57 am: |
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It is a man made (Joseph Smith) lie. Mormon doctrine is false. Period. When any part of their false beliefs are questioned or even proven wrong, mormons seem to turn a deaf ear. That is mind control pure and simple. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, November 28, 2003 - 11:20 pm: |
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The text I have uses a question/answer format to analyze the Mormon religion in a light that shows their cultic/anti-christ[ian] beliefs. I'll summarize what I can from the questions I find are most important...
"How did Mormonism originate and how important are supernatural revelations to the founding and sustaining of the Mormon Church?"
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, is said to have had devine revelations from God in 1820. However, it is documented that there have been "at least six contradictory versions of this key event" meaning that the official version of God's appearence to Smith took awhile to be correctly worded, per se.
"Does Mormonism claim to be the only true church on earth?
Doctrine and Covenants, one of the Mormon churches primary books, "emphasizes that Mormonism is 'the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.'"
"Does the Mormon Church give biblical words an entiredly falso meaning?"
Here are several examples of terms with changed meanings from those of Christians (definitions given here are those believed in the Mormon church) These definitions "represent true Mormon teaching as proven by an evaluation of standard Mormon theological works.":
Christianity- sectarianism; a false and
damnable apostate religion.
God- "Elohim"; one of innumerable self-
progressing bodily deities; formerly a
man, a finite creature. In early
Mormon theology, Adam ( of the Gorden
of Eden) was considered by many
Mormons as the true earth deity.
Jesus Christ: a self-progressing deity
("Jehovah" of the Old Testament) and
the first spirit child of "Elohim" and
his wife.
Holy Ghost- a man with a spiritual body of
matter.
Trinity- tritheistic; coordinated under
general Mormon polytheism; thus the
Father, Son and Holy Ghost are
separate deities.
The Gospel- Mormon theology.
Born-again- water baptism into Mormonism.
True salvation/eternal life/redemption-
Exaltation to Godhood in the highest
part of the celestial kingdom based
upon individual good works and
personal merit; exaltation
incorporates ruling a new world and
sexual procreation in order to produce
spirit childrn who will eventually be
embodied and inhabit that world, each
then having the opportunity to be
exalted.
Death- geneally a step upward; death
represents the possibility of a form
of salvation (if not exaltation) for
those who have never heard of
Mormonism.
Heaven- three "kingdoms of glory"
comprising various spiritual
gradations.
Hell- generally purgatorial; possibly
eternal for few (primarily apostate
Mormons).
Virgin birth- the birth of Christ through a
physical sex act between God the
Father (the Mormon earth god "Elohim"
and Mary (hence, not a VIRGIN birth).
Man- a preexistent spirit with the
potential to earn Godhood by obedience
to Mormon dictates.
The scriptures- the Book of Mormon;
Doctrine and Covenants; The Pearl of
Great Price; and the Bible "as far as
it is translated correctly" (Articles
of Faith,8).
The Bible- an erring and often unreliable
inspired record, properly interpreted
only by Mormons and only in light of
Mormon theology.
You can see these terms have definition that are anything but Christian.
Would you like more detailed examples of true Mormon beliefs or would you prefer the rest to be even more simplified? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 5:22 pm: |
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Read Spirtual Responsibility by Steven hassan.
Answer the questions by reading john bushmans
the beginings of mormonism.
and you'll really see how cult like they are.
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/responsibility/questions.htm |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 12:58 am: |
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i would like to point out that it clearly states in the Bible that nothing we can possibly do as humans earns a place in heaven. Salvation is a gift from God, it is called grace. by believing in Jesus Christ He carries our sin for us and only through Him do we gain salvation. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 10:58 pm: |
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Steve Hassan charges fees to people for doing his brainwash out of the cults. I haven't seen one Mormon charging fees for his/her time given to help others. |
lds
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 9:37 pm: |
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I would just like to say that mormans do not think that just because you are not married the way we believe to be correctly (in the temple and by the people who have the authority to do so) does not meen that you can not be saved. We belive that temple marriage is a goal that needs to be achieved in this lifetime, but all it really meens, is you will be with your spouse eternally, not 'till death do you part', and it does not meen you will not be saved. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 3:34 pm: |
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'We fear another Waco'
With the authorities in hot pursuit, a Mormon 'Prophet', Warren Jeffs, has gone to ground with his 70 wives - and enough ammo for Armageddon. Andrew Gumbel reports from a community in fear
19 February 2004
Opinions differ about the precise moment when Warren Jeffs, self-appointed prophet of the last sizeable community of polygamous Mormons in the United States, started to go a little nuts. Some say it stems back to his adolescence when, as a gawky social misfit teased by his schoolmates, he was briefly thrown out of his father's house in Salt Lake City for an offence against his younger brothers alleged to be so grave it is mentioned by the faithful only in a low whisper.
Others say he developed a fanatical obsession with power and obedience when, in his twenties, he became headmaster of a religious school and routinely delivered savage beatings with a belt or yardstick to children who fell foul of his authority.
Others still say the real trouble started in 1998, when his father and predecessor as prophet, Rulon Jeffs, was incapacitated by a stroke and set Warren up as one of two candidates he deemed equally worthy of his succession. Warren, described by his critics as almost pathologically jealous, rapidly positioned himself as de facto regent and, after his father's death in 2002, proceeded to strip his rival, Winston Blackmore, of all authority.
What is clear, however, is that Jeffs is now behaving like a dictator losing his grip, prompting fears that the community under his dominion, the remote twin towns of Hildale and Colorado City, on the Utah-Arizona border, is on the verge of imploding. Fanatical, demented, unstable ? such are the words used to describe him by critics both inside and outside the community.
Residents and law enforcement officials in both states are openly talking about the terrifying possibility of another Waco or Jonestown; in other words, a confrontation leading to mass bloodshed among the faithful.
One quickly understands why. Jeffs permits no books, newspapers or television for his followers, telling them that much of the outside world is evil. Public entertainment was never a big feature of life in Colorado City, just the occasional dance or picnic, but now it has been banned altogether. Jeffs expects every family to hang at least one portrait of him above their mantlepiece, and to listen to tapes of his sermons ? there are at least 150 ? until they can be recited verbatim.
To enforce his will, he has formed a gang of teenage boys, known variously as Uncle Warren's Sons of Helaman or, simply, the God Squad, who knock on people's doors unannounced and conduct searches to check for signs of insubordination.
Since Jeffs controls the trust that owns all the land in Hildale and Colorado City, and since he claims divine authority to determine every aspect of the lives of the 6,000-odd inhabitants, from the jobs they do to the people they marry, he has many ways of expressing his displeasure.
In the past few months, he has broken up three dozen polygamous families, "reassigning" wives and children whose menfolk have fallen out of favour. Last month, Jeffs excommunicated and expelled 20 prominent people, including his nonagenarian chief bishop, Fred Jessop, longstanding mayor Dan Barlow, and several members of Barlow's extended family. The current whereabouts of some of those expelled is far from clear.
Others, meanwhile, have refused to leave, rising up instead in open revolt against him.
The most visible rebel, 35-year-old Ross Chatwin, recently invited the national media to gather in front of the house he has been ordered to give up and hear him liken Jeffs to Adolf Hitler. "Warren is out of control," Chatwin later told me in his sparsely furnished living room, as four of his six children ran in and out.
"If men are not perfectly obedient and submissive to him, he shatters their families. And people go along with it, because they are totally convinced he is talking to God daily. It truly is one of the most effective brain-washing schemes since Hitler."
At the same time as Jeffs is conducting a purge within his community, he is facing mounting pressure from the outside world, as ever more alarming reports surface of a polygamy culture in Colorado City tantamount to a slavery racket in teenage girls. The testimony of dozens of girls who have run away from the community, some of whom have gone on to testify in court, suggests that sex abuse, paedophilia and incest are rampant.
Young girls ? they used to be as young as 11 or 12, although in recent times they have more typically been 15 or 16 ? are given away in marriage solely on the say-so of the prophet. They will be traded among the men like chattel. Often, their designated husbands are old enough to be their grandfathers, or even their great-grandfathers, and have multiple wives and children already. Not only are the girls not consulted ahead of time; they are effectively raped on their wedding nights, and held in a state of captivity thereafter.
After decades of inactivity ? the result of fear, laziness and a residual sympathy for the polygamists among mainstream Mormons -- the authorities in both Arizona and Utah have decided it is time to crack down, and Warren Jeffs may very well be their prime target. Weak laws make it hard to prosecute polygamy in and of itself, but both states deem it a felony for a man to have sex with a minor, and Utah birth certificates show that Jeffs has conceived children with at least two girls under the age of 18.
Shortly after learning he was under investigation last summer, Jeffs abruptly announced that he was ending his regular Saturday morning church services and would perform no more plural marriages until further notice. Naturally, he did not reveal the seriousness of his plight; instead, he told his faithful that they were to blame for failing to "honour the word of God", and that the great "privilege" of polygamy was thus withdrawn from them by the Lord Almighty Himself.
Jeffs has since retreated behind the eight-foot high walls of his compound, which occupies two whole city blocks in Hildale and bristles with video surveillance cameras. He is believed to have more than 70 wives, who are holed up with him and ? according to Ross Chatwin ? are themselves subject to 24-hour video surveillance.
He hardly appears in public any more, communicating largely through a deputy called Sam Barlow. Even his lawyer, kept more than usually busy these days, has little or no direct contact with him.
Nobody knows what would happen if the law chose to swoop on Jeffs' compound. Not far away, next to the bishop's residence, is a tightly guarded cave, or "fall-out shelter" as some call it, believed to be packed with emergency supplies and an unknown number of firearms. According to the town's informal historian, Ben Bistline, the community bought 100 semi-automatic rifles and hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition sometime in the 1980s. There have been sporadic reports of consignments of arms arriving in trucks since then, but nobody knows for sure how many.
With fear in far greater supply than hard information, rumours are rife. One theory has it that Jeffs is planning to flee with his most faithful followers to a secret compound he is building 20 miles south of the Arizona-Mexico border. Another suggests he has his sights on Jackson County, Missouri, where the founding prophet of the Mormon religion, Joseph Smith, tried to establish his fledgling community in the 1830s before being run out into Illinois. Jeffs has certainly been hoarding money recently: two years ago, he took over all the businesses in Colorado City, pocketing their profits for himself, and he has made increasing "tithing" demands, ostensibly to ward off the community's enemies whom he characterises as tools of the devil.
It is also entirely possible Jeffs will sit tight exactly where he is, and wait for the authorities to make the first move. That, in turn, scares the daylights out of anti-polygamy campaigners like Flora Jessop, who escaped from Colorado City 18 years ago and still has numerous family members in the town. "It has gone beyond a cult. It is at the point of being a terrorist organisation," she said. "People there believe they can make their own laws in defiance of all governmental control. They are prepared to die for their leader, and that's exactly what's going to happen if American citizens choose not to show concern. These people are no different from suicide bombers in Iraq."
Flora Jessop's aunt Jenny Larson, who left Colorado City in the 1940s when she was 11 and now makes it her business to help escaping teenage girls make their getaway, has a photo in her collection of "Uncle Rulon", Warren Jeffs' father, on the day he married wives number 75 and 76. Uncle Rulon was over 90 at the time, while the girls, blonde and impeccably groomed, were sisters aged 14 and 16. "Why, that horny old bastard," Larson spits in disgust as she shows the photo to me.
Larson has observed several generations of Colorado City polygamists from her home in St George, Utah, 35 miles away. She remembers the prophet of her youth, John Y. Barlow, as a "big fat pig" who slurped water out of a jug at Saturday morning services rather than using the glass provided, and had no qualms about marrying a 12-year-old who took his fancy. One of Barlow's more recent successors, Leroy Johnson, also married an 12-year-old, while one of Johnson's brothers paired himself off with his own stepdaughters, aged 9 and 11.
Larson has seen dozens of mothers and children show up at her door, disoriented and terrified as they try to decide whether they have done the right thing, or consigned their souls to eternal damnation by running away. She has seen families broken up, rearranged, intermarried and broken up all over again, purely on the whim of the prophet. She drew an inordinately complicated family tree for me to demonstrate how one woman she knew ended up being her own mother-in-law and grandmother to her own children.
She also described how, for years, there was no doctor in town, only the bishop's wife who acted as general practitioner, dentist and midwife. Dozens of babies died in childbirth, she said.
"It's very sad, because these women and children have put their whole belief in one stupid man. They actually believe this garbage," she said. Ross Chatwin, who has only just begun his own personal journey away from the fundamentalist mindset, described the strange comfort people in Colorado City took in bearing no responsibility for their own lives and entrusting everything to the prophet, "the one mighty and strong".
Gauging the mood in town, it becomes apparent that many residents exude a child-like quality of blank innocence, displaying impeccable politeness and smiling broadly even as they say, implausibly, that they do not know the answers to your questions. The flipside of that studied trustfulness, though, is that many people ? Chatwin estimates up to 3,000, or half the town -- prize obedience above their own lives.
"If the prophet presents something as a choice between saving their lives and saving their souls, they will choose salvation over life," he said. It does not help that the fundamentalist Mormons preach that the end of the world is imminent. According to a tape-recording of one of his sermons, Warren Jeffs described the 11 September attacks as a "magnificent portent and cause of great hope" because he thought it would hasten Armageddon.
The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS for short, grew directly out of the mainstream Mormon church's rejection of polygamy in 1890. Renouncing plural marriage was the price Washington exacted for Utah to attain statehood, and like all edicts issued from above it stirred widespread resentment and mistrust. Devout Mormons found it very hard to let go of polygamy, because the practice had been preached by Joseph Smith himself; Smith said a man needed to marry at least three wives to reach the highest echelon of heaven.
The fundamentalists first came in the 1920s to Colorado City and Hildale ? then known as Short Creek - and were able to settle and grow largely because of the area's remoteness. On the Arizona side, they were cut off from the rest of the state by the Grand Canyon. On the Utah side, civilisation was closer, although for the first 40 years there was no more than a dirt road connecting them to St George.
The community became expert at playing one set of state officials off against the other, and even more expert at squeezing the state and the federal government for subsidies and public assistance. Polygamists generally formalise their first marriage to reap the tax advantages of marital status, but leave subsequent matches undeclared. That means that all but one of their wives can claim single motherhood status.
With money flowing in for food stamps, health care, child care, the city police force (who are under the prophet's de facto authority), the local school district (ditto), and special federally funded projects including the construction of an airport just south of Colorado City, the fundamentalists receive more than $16 million a year from the government authorities they profess to despise. They call this "bleeding the beast" and take great pride in it.
Part of the reason they have got away with so much for so long is because of the continuing shock waves from a raid on the community organised by the Arizona police and National Guard in 1953. Arizona's then governor Howard Pyle coordinated a dawn swoop in which 122 adults were arrested and 263 children taken into foster care. Pyle believed he was eradicating a great social cesspool, but the media focussed instead on images of children being wrenched from their mothers' arms, leading to a firestorm of indignation from commentators who denounced the raid as a shocking intrusion on religious and personal freedoms. Within three years, the polygamists were out of prison and reunited with their families, while Pyle's political career disintegrated.
The problem has grown exponentially over the past half-century, as a community then numbering just a few hundred increased to several thousand. Growth has stretched resources to near breaking point, and the place reeks of poverty. Although construction of outsize houses continues apace, many of the roads remain unpaved. Metal junk is piled up all around town, the water mains leak and the water supply contains dangerous quantities of radon. In the absence of central heating, most households resort to wood-burning stoves, shrouding the town in a frequent brown haze.
Some critics, like Jenny Larson and Flora Jessop, will tell you the place has always been run as a hellish cult, while others, such as the local historian Ben Bistline, will argue that the leadership has become more dictatorial over time. Clearly, the female and male perspectives are very different. But both agree that Warren Jeffs has taken things to a new extreme, perhaps because he does not have the same charismatic hold as his predecessors.
Uncle Rulon was certainly no picnic ? he once had all the dogs in town rounded up and shot after a child was attacked by a Rottweiler ? but Warren has been denounced even by one of his own brothers as an unprecedented fanatic. "[He] preaches that you must be perfect in your obedience," the brother told the author Jon Krakauer, who spend an extensive period in Colorado City. "You must have the spirit twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, or you'll be cut off and go to hell."
Likewise, there have been schisms and splits in the fundamentalist church before, especially following the death of one prophet and pending the establishment of another. (Schisms seem to be hardwired into the Mormon religion, perhaps because its founding myth sets two feuding brothers, Nephi and Laman, at each other's throats.) Nobody, though, recalls the sense of foreboding and possible implosion that prevails now.
The Utah Attorney General has said he suspects Jeffs of planning a "blood atonement" ? also known as human sacrifice ? of a teenage girl who resisted marrying the man assigned to her. (The girl ran away to another fundamentalist community in Canada before returning and submitting to the prophet's will.) To another reluctant teenage bride, Ruth Stubbs, he said: "You can either live here and live in hell, and then when you die have eternal happiness. Or else, you can go out into the world and live in hell and die and even have more eternal hell."
Stubbs subsequently went to the authorities and saw her husband, a Hildale policeman, convicted of bigamy and sexual misconduct with a minor, largely on her testimony.
The key to prising open the closed up world of Colorado City is persuading more teenagers like Stubbs to come forward and testify. That's no easy feat, because runaway brides tend to be as suspicious of the authorities as they are of the prophet.
Flora Jessop and other campaigners have lambasted state agencies for frequent insensitivity, including instances where runaway teenagers were sent back to their parents. But officials in both Arizona and Utah now say dealing with the polygamists is a top priority. Jessop says education is the key ? educating both the authorities and the women and children who are kept deliberately in the dark by their male keepers. "We have to hope the authorities take heed of what we are saying," Jessop told me, "so we don't end up with a bunch of innocent people getting hurt."
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=492734 |
solopilot (solopilot)
New member
Username: solopilot
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 216.190.204.218
| | Posted on Sunday, December 05, 2004 - 2:16 pm: |
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Anonymous: Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus and Lucifer are NOT spiritual brothers? If Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, and God created all things, then God created Lucifer also. And us. If you are my brother (or sister) as a child of God, then wouldn't Lucifer be a brother of Jesus, both having been created by God?
It clearly states in the Bible that there is one thing that we MUST do to be saved, ". . .that whosoever believeth in Him . . ."
You misunderstand what it means to be "saved" by the Atonement. You think that being "saved" means going to Heaven. What it means is that we are saved from eternal condemnation.
You are sure good at cut and paste (I recognize much of what you post here from several other Protestant cultists). Do you have any thoughts of your own? |
overseas (overseas)
Junior Member
Username: overseas
Post Number: 39
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 164.143.240.33
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 5:18 am: |
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Right in the Bible Jesus says in the garden of Ghetsimani that the lord of this world (Lucifer) is coming and that this lord and Jesus have nothing in common.
In John gospel, Jesus taught that He was going to Father in Heaven to prepare a place to His people. Heaven is defined by the presence of God. You Mormons say the truth that you are not going to heaven, but that is to recognise your condemnation. |
solopilot (solopilot)
Member
Username: solopilot
Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 216.190.204.218
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 2:12 am: |
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Overseas: When have we Mormons ever said that we aren't going to Heaven?
I think maybe we have a language cross-up here. |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 290
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.53.3
| | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 8:02 pm: |
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Ashley, What and where and who wrote the 'big official book' you mention, as evidence that mormonism is a religion. Religion can be belief in anything.
Satan is a fallen angel. Man is not and will never be, and has never been an angel. Do mormons believe Jesus is an angel? Of course not. I have never read (even in mormon books) that angels are our brothers. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
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GC: Ever read D&C 129? - probably not. |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 298
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.52.202
| | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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Just one more proof that mormons have no understanding of God, the True God. The bible says "Do you not know you will judge even the angels?" This does not say manangels, or angelmen or any other nonsense. This is too bizarre. The only reason mormons have to believe angels are men and vice versa is their belief in a plan between God and spirits (who they believe we were) devised a plan. Since it was devised in accordance to our wishes also, every being will go back to God, on different levels. Including; Adam, Eve, Satan, every good and evil being created (and they include Jesus there) will go to heaven. So according to mormon beliefs, you can eat, drink, and be marry, for tomorrow you die. But wait, there's one glitch in their plan. Men wanta be god, don't they. Okay, you better follow all the rituals and ordinances of the mormon church so you can be a god. Otherwise, you're just the average Joe Blow in heaven. Can't even keep the wife and kids if you screw up. You gotta be one hellofa liar to convince the bigshots to let you go through the temple ordinances, but if you are, you got it made, man.
Oh yeah, it's even easier, cause you got that 1000 year (millenium) to get all your stuff done if you don't get around to it here. See, there's no losers in the LDS church.
(Read the Holy Bible and see what Satan promised Jesus during the temptations) The same load of bull that Jesus rejected. But mormons swallow.
It is one of the most pitiable farces of a church ever devised. Other cults come right out and ask for money and all that worldly stuff that we won't need and can't use in heaven. Mormons hide behind their 'sweetness, politeness, and volunteerism'. Although those are admirable attributes, they do not a Christian make.
There is no sense bringing more evidence to this forum. Staunch mormons will go to their deaths thinking they'll get that one last chance. Satan's lie. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 4:21 am: |
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Go back and read your anti-LDS books, you even misundestand them! - Your really were "scorned" weren't you?
The sad thing is, your ineffectual attempt to rubbish the Church simply beacause you were found wanting will not achieve anything.
I tink your final paragraph summs up just how closed minded you really are - you will really only be happy when no Latter-day Saints are willing to repond to your tirades. You do not bring evidence, just "foolish questions", made more foolish by your knowing the true answers and rejecting them beacuse they do not fit in with your false idea of what the Church represents - you are hitting your head against a strong brick wall, and I bet it hurts! |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 305
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.54.233
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 9:35 am: |
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Foolish questions. If a person is wondering if there is a God or many Gods, I would advise they look into their own heart and seek all the information available. Also the people who made the claims. The Holy Bible gives me all the answers. Yours doesn't. Another change in mormon teaching: continuation of the bible is what we called the Book of Mormon when I was a member. Why would that offend you? Because a more recent leader of your church decided that wording is not appropriate? There is no sense in your argument that the mormon church is the only true church. It simply does not hold water. It has had a steady leak since it's inception, and you are the little boy with his finger in the dike. |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 306
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.54.233
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 9:38 am: |
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I do not post in hopes of a response from mormons; ex: you. Whether you leave or not does not have anything to do with my exposure of your church. It is your ego that led you to believe this. Have a good trip and may the Lord be with you. |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 307
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.52.50
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 9:56 am: |
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I understand the distress mormons have about all their deep, dark secrets being exposed. It is the nature of their belief in progression. They believe true salvation is only acquired after years of work to become worthy enough to be shown the secrets of mormonism:re: God being married to Eve, Jesus being married to Mary, God having sex with mary, becoming gods, etc. It is only for the worthy to know, to be let into the secrets. By exposing all those secrets that they hold so sacred, we are messing up their little plan to bring people in with simple scriptural truths, then slowly indoctinating them into the secret realm of mormon devotion. They hate that they have worked so hard to find out so little, and others, (non-members and past members) are giving out the information for free.
That is the wonderful thing about true salvation. You don't have to work for it. It's free, and even a child can understand it. People insist on complicating things. Do not blame that on God. Blame it on men who want to boast of their 'progression'. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
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Sorry GC: You seem only to have been saved to the drivel you have fed yurself since leaving the church - you know much of what you say about the church is half truth or lies, end of story.
Of course you only wish to lead away any that may be interested in learning what the church does believe - remember Lehi's dream - he warned of those such as you. Your means appear innocent enough, but the results for anyone believing that piffle will only be more confusion. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 73
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 1:57 pm: |
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GC: So much for you relying on the truth as plainly given in the Bible:
Phillipians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
So who knows about TRUE salvation?, obviously not a mere man like the Apostle Paul - you obviously know that Paul meant just believe, then sit around on your botty til the end comes -here endeth lesson 1 of the gospel according to GC. Please teach me more! |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 392
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.51.14
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
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One such as joesdad will pick one verse out of chapters which speak of salvation and say it confirms what his church teaches. The problem is, he should read more of the Holy Bible, for example:
Paul speaking 1 Corinthians 15:10
" " 2 Corinthians 3:1-6
" " 2 Corinthains 1:1-20
The ones I suggested are only a small portion of the biblical teachings of salvation.
What joesdad does not understand, obviously, is that Paul was going to different churches and speaking to them about problems they were having in each church. Therefore, a wise person would want to read all of Paul's teachings to the christians so he/she would be sure to get the whole message.
I am afraid joesdad does need assistance from another mormon on these threads. Not only does he not understand scripture, but he doesn't even understand what his own church's teachings are. Could that be why he was excommunicated, as he so happily epressed to Franklin? I am afraid that joesdad is a true mormon in more ways then even his church would wish; he thinks he can recieve salvation on his own; but that is a consequence of teaching people they can become a god, they start believing it. |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 393
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.51.14
| | Posted on Sunday, March 13, 2005 - 3:28 pm: |
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Joesdad keeps saying that I add moreconfusion to the study of mormonism. I think by saying more is his admitting there is already confusion in his church. We knew that already. After all, we have been reading the posts of other mormons. Someone should catch up before, instead of just stumbling along, he falls flat on his face AGAIN. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.
A bruised ego is bruised pride is sin. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Intermediate Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 158
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 8:25 am: |
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GC: What a strange mind you have, I thought growing up meant we moved away from that childish type of logic.
Anyone confused about mormonism reading your postings will only become more confused rather than more enlightened - I assumed you would be able to work out what I meant by yourself, without my having to spell it out for you.
You talk of ego!! - you presume that anything you say is actually news to anyone - you prove yourself ignorant in this respect - also your continual claim that all this stuff was kept secret from you despite being freely available from the internet and other sources must surely leave anyone reading your postings asking if you actually pay attention to anyone other than yourself.
I see that you have kept away from answering my direct question regarding satan being the angel of music, as your fellow christian states - are you no longer in agreemant with him - in which case is he not really a christian according to your rules (those being that LDS are not christian as they do not believe the same as you) - come on enough of the childish banter - talk real religion - do you and he (both professioed christians) disgaree on the origin and role of satan?, if not please provide some proof to evidence your claim - this is important as all of his claims are based on the fact we do not believe the same as him on some matters - and if you are able to accept such an unsubstantiable calim as his, then why not those of Mormonism - except you refuse them by choice? |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 401
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.51.133
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
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I have not found where the Holy Bible says satan led the music in heaven. What we do know is that he was once an angel who fell. That is the main point of franklin's statement, and the point I agreed with. Whether he led the singing does not in any way change the main fact.
The main points of my sharing with others here is that you believe you can become a god once you progress enough. The main point of the Bible is that there is one God, the creator of all.
Yes, there are many web sites and books 'out there' for the world to see the truth about mormonism, but these things were not being shared on this site. That in no way makes me special. I am not special. When mormons immediately begin denying the truth, which you now say is out there for all the world to see, then it was incumbent on me to show evidence by sharing your books with them.
What is a professional christian? A christian is a christian. That is the beauty of being a christian. It is not more for some and less for others. It is equal for all who make the most important choice we can in this world. Do we believe what God's Word tells us is truth, or do we believe men who have frailties by virtue of being man. We are imperfect. God is perfect. We sin. God does not sin. We cannot heal ourselves. God can.
Satan's lies deny all this and teaches we can do it on our own, by becoming gods ourselves.
I know I have taken comedic license with you. It is part of my being imperfect. I chose to use the same tactics you did to show you how foolish you are. Do I think God is pleased with my action in teasing you? No. I do know by allowing him to guide me instead of 'doing it on my own', I please him.
You have the right to defend your church. I have the same right to show (with quotes from your books) that you are in err. This is not a competition. Knowledge and truth do not necessarily go hand in hand. It is when we humble ourselves that knowledge will be one factor in leading us to truth. The other is faith, hope and love, in and of God.
If I ever post here again, it is not going to be a match with you or any other mormon. I believe there is enough evidence on these posts to help people make an 'INFORMED decision'. The power of the Holy Spirit will do the work. Not I. Not you. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Intermediate Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 163
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.252.64.33
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 4:08 pm: |
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GC: The REAL point, is that you chose what to believe from a selection of beliefs and then call them christainity - I have read articles by people like you who feel they have the right to define the beliefs of a "True Christian", that would exclude even Christ himself - if you and Franklin disagree on one thing, I am sure there are many others.
Franklins weird belief in Satan is as unacceptable to you as my belief in what our eternal purpose is - yet you chose to raise your standard with his belief that is shared by very few.
Can't you see how your anger at falling away from the church has been eating away at you? even after all these years you are bitter. Surely no good reason for accepting Franklins false doctrine as credible, yet you will accept it because a Mormon has challenged it, not because it is correct.
There is no competition, yet you know I have not once lied about the churches teachings - whereas you have, and the question will always be why?
(Message edited by joesdad on March 14, 2005) |
20guy (20guy)
New member
Username: 20guy
Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 63.206.0.39
| | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 2:05 pm: |
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I cant believen after what Glenn, anonymous may21,said you gusy continue to argue over this pointless exchange of words that already be explained. Sad you guys continue and to see that may 21 already answered a question latter posted after his post continues to be talked about..... im so baffled what is wrong with you all oooo i know you have a hardening of heart fforgot about that. Sorry wont ask again but take this in to consideration you need to open your heart not your angered minds please stop your igrnorant views please your just hurtting people. |
godchild (godchild)
Advanced Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 919
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.51.32
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 1:39 pm: |
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Genesis 3:5
What is the meaning of Satan's promise, "You will be like God, knowing good and evil"?
There are five Old Testament passages in which knowing good and evil are mentioned:
Deuteronomy 1:39; 2 Samuel 14:17;19:35; 1 Kings 3:9; and Isaiah 7:15. These, with Genesis 3:5, agree that knowing good and evil is the prerogative of God. That is, God alone has in himself the capacity to distinguish between that which is good and that which is evil. He alone is truly an autonomous (free, sovereign, and independent person.
Satan's statement contained both truth and falsehood. In disobeying God, Adam and Eve declared their independence from him. They did come to know (experience) evil and its consequenses. But the freedom they declared trapped them, forcing them to rely on their own faulty judgment and forcing God to condemn them for their sins. Satan's promises seem appealing on the surface. But any truth his words contain conceals a deadly trap. |
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