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lmao (lmao)
New member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.33.60.157
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 12:04 pm: | 
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The following definitions come from Merriam-Webster online:
Main Entry: me·di·a·tion
Pronunciation: "mE-dE-'A-sh&n
Function: noun
: the act or process of mediating; especially : intervention between conflicting parties to promote reconciliation, settlement, or compromise
Main Entry: leg·a·cy
Pronunciation: 'le-g&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
Etymology: Middle English legacie office of a legate, bequest, from Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French, office of a legate, from Medieval Latin legatia, from Latin legatus
1 : a gift by will especially of money or other personal property : BEQUEST
2 : something transmitted by or received from an ancestor or predecessor or from the past (the legacy of the ancient philosophers)
For the sake of discussion, I am going to assume that the leaders at GGWO will work out their problems and come out with an acceptable set of "by-laws" or a "constitution" that resembles much of mainstream Protestant Christianity in America that could not reasonably be called "cultic" either in doctrine or in practice. Other than offering a blanket apology and repentance to the wounded and hurt, there will be no public focus on past failings by the church leadership, but only a renewed vision for the future. Pastor Stevens will not be denounced in any way, since most of the current congregation and leadership love and respect him. Only the good things he did will be his legacy.
I do not think this would satisfy many readers here.
If after the church completes its reforms, you had the opportunity along with other like minded people to be represented by a mediator of your choice, what additional steps would you like the church to take that would cause you at least forgive the ministry or at the most return to it?
Perhaps this discussion is a little premature, but none the less, have at it. |
minutus (minutus)
Intermediate Member
Username: minutus
Post Number: 385
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.99.90.5
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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There are leaders both in Baltimore and branch ministries who are ready to ask CRI to come in and tell them what it would take to "come clean." That would be an excellent place to start, if resistance from the hard-core can be overcome. |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 76
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
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Well, first of all, if I had been a former attender at TBS or GG, I wouldn't want the mediator to simply represent me. I would want the elders and the Stevens family to sit down with representatives of the dissidents with the mediator guiding the discussion.
As an outsider, I've got a lot less emotionally invested here, but I can think of three things that would tell me that they were really sorry and wanted to change:
1. Dealing with the sexual abuse issue straight up including turning over anything relevant from "the files" to the state police of the appropriate state(s).
2. A document signed by Carl and the elders specifically retracting his statement in 1972 that he would never be under human authority again and a placement of respected outside evangelicals in an oversight position at Greater Grace.
3. A proclamation from the pulpit that marking and shunning those who leave is wrong, and an apology to those who have left over the years.
I realize that this is a lot. I'm "dreaming in color" here. It seems to me that a more likely outcome is Greater Grace splintering, with one or more fragments trying to make things right and one or more other fragments continuing business as usual.
Hodeuon |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1065
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.154.97
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
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I think these are excellent, H...but I would add one more
4. Monies paid to families who were promised and denied a lifetime home upon the selling of their personal properties to further the buying of the Lenox prperty. In cases of the parties in question being deceased, monies to be paid to relatives.
And in the case of #1...allowing a third party complete access to the files BEFORE any shredding is done to protect the guilty. |
hodeuon (hodeuon)
Member
Username: hodeuon
Post Number: 78
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.50.121.170
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 3:29 pm: |
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Good point. I know much less about the sale of homes situation than about the rest of this, so it didn't come immediately to mind. But, yes, that needs to be taken care of, too.
I've heard of a way to mediate church disputes where each party picks an outside pastor, and then the two of them get together and pick a third guy, and that way both sides feel like they're getting a fair shake. Of course this presumes that each party believes that there exists a good Christian leader outside their own group....
Hodeuon |
louise_connolly (louise_connolly)
Intermediate Member
Username: louise_connolly
Post Number: 156
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.61.151.107
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 7:23 pm: |
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What about restitution for the millions that was swindled from Betsy Dovydenas? Whether she is rich or not, they still legally owe her that money. |
arguendo (arguendo)
Intermediate Member
Username: arguendo
Post Number: 216
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 7:37 pm: |
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why do you think that she wasn't paid? |
buggin (buggin)
Junior Member
Username: buggin
Post Number: 27
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 4.155.102.127
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 9:18 pm: |
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She (Elizabeth) stated this herself.
She was also stuck with some of the legal fees that should have been paid by TBS during the bankruptcy trial.
Until 9-11-01 happened the methods Carl Stevens used to launder money went largely unnoticed.
TBS/GGWO has used "foreign missions" as one among other means to launder money. |
arguendo (arguendo)
Intermediate Member
Username: arguendo
Post Number: 219
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 9:26 pm: |
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Money laundering? What evidence is there of this? what are you talking about?
when did elizabeth say this? It's not that I doubt it, it's jsut that I don't remember seeing it. Also, she was not awarded all of the money she said was bilked from her. |
dianne_ackley (dianne_ackley)
Junior Member
Username: dianne_ackley
Post Number: 41
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 152.163.100.9
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
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Louise Connolly, I believe that you are wrong about Betsy getting all the money back from Carl. When she received the college it was worth much money. It had a beautiful new Chapel and was in good shape.That was a lg. property with homes etc. on it. It lay in total disrepair until a little more than a year ago when it was turned into a theater. Carl lost many churches and a ship that carried Bibles and first aid to poor countries.Most of the college is still a mess, but it was a valuable property when Betsy took it over. I THINK you will find that she did get if not the money she got the equivalant of it. |
lmao (lmao)
New member
Username: lmao
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.33.60.157
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
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TBS lost all its assets in bankruptcy to its creditors which as a result of the verdict included Betsy. TBS is out of business and there is nothing that can be done agianst it, whether it is Betsy getting paid or refunds to people RJ referred to. Any idea that restitution should be sought from TBS days is wishful thinking since there is no TBS.
Betsy gets paid every time I go to Target. |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Advanced Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 552
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
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Imao - Welcome, thanks for posting. You are right, there are some on here who would not care whether there was true repentance or not. There are many more however who are eager for true repentance.
People have been hurt; some emotionally, some sexually, some financially, some families have been torn apart, and some lives are shipwrecked. Should they all have a vertical that will take them beyind that? Absolutely! Do they all have that? Absolutely not! But I, for one of many on here, am not going to marginalize their pain and suffering because they are experessing it.
Authority has an attendant accountability code that goes with it. Most on here are simply crying ACCOUNTABILITY FOR ALL! God (truly) is not mocked, whatever a man sows he will also reap. And guess what, FactNet IS a part of the reaping.
The day that I can step into the pulpit of a friend's pulpit, who happens to still be in GGWO, without them having to fear any reprisal and subsequent marking themselves for it, is the day that I will say "Praise God, repentance has come to the camp." However, I was somewhat on the inside, and quess what, I do not see that happening anytime soon. Unfortunately. 
Blessings,
Ralph
1Cor 15:10 |
dancer
Member
Username: dancer
Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.40.211.238
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 8:50 pm: |
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Money? I don't know but the $ + the loss. Nope
Money Laudr. hell yeah. It happened in amajor way. |