| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
my sisters brother in law if the leasder of a UPC in Manitowoc, WI. Now that her husband is so brainwashed (by his own brother) that they are getting divorced. Isn't there someplace you can report this to? I have had the misfortune of sitting through a UPC wedding ceremony and I know forsthand that these folks are wacked. Where can I go for help? | ||
| Anonymous |
No one is policeing the church except the church. I just exited an abusive one myself. I have found no one willing to help. They all told me to run for my life and I did. | ||
| Anonymous |
Have you heard of freedom or a person right to do what they want in america. If you dont like it then dont go to a wedding but dont try to tell other people what they should do or limit their freedoms in this free country we call america. | ||
| Anonymous |
To the June 26 post You are missing the point. Just because we live in america does not mean that everyone is free. Once someone has been sucked into an unhealthy religion, the s.o.b. in charge makes it all but impossible to leave and when you do, you are constantly looking over your shoulder because "they" are watching. | ||
| adam and dennis |
Once again folks you have missed the point. Just because there are certain people in a particular organization who commit imoral and un-Godly acts, does that mean that the entire organization is at fault? Just because Bill Clinton was a part of American society, does that mean that all of American society is accountable for his actions?? Is your denomination perfect? Have you ever heard of a minister or a church member doing something un-Christian like? I think the important point to make, is do not judge the denomination but seek God for yourself within the context of the Bible. As a member of the United Pentecostal Church I do not have my blinders on. It is certaintly not a perfect organisation. Comparitavely, I have never heard of an organisation, religious or not, that has not gone through its own set of tribulations. Personally, I subscribe to the doctrine we hold because it is literalist. What attracted me was the fact they look at the whole Bible and don't pick and choose. That being said, one thing we must look at, is that the UPC believes wholeheartedly in the autonomy of the local congregation. The congregation elects its own ministers, writes its own constitution, and, for any reason has the right to dismiss elected officials (i.e. the Pastor). In other words the local church is self-governing. The local church's connection to the UPC is based upon the subscribing to a certain belief system and also through the pastor's submission to a governing presbytry. Therefore, realising the self-governing nature of the local church, it is a given that in the UPC there will be a minority who abuse their position as a minister. Just like in elementary school, out of all the wonderful teachers I had, there was the one who was mean and unfair. And to be honest, if we were perfect we would have been Jesus. So back to your original question. Why are we a cult? Was Christianity not a cult at first? Is Christianity still a cult in some parts of the world? I would love to invite you to dissect all of the doctrine of the church. If you can find one principle in there, that does not come from the word of God (IN THE BIBLE), I would absolutely love to hear about it. I too, thought that Pentecostals were a cult. The thing that we have to rid from our minds, is this idea of denomination. What are you looking for? Are you looking for a personal relationshiop with Jesus? Or are you looking to hold on to a denominational belief system? I feel not obligated nor compelled to stay with a United Pentecostal church. I am here to have personal relationship with Christ. If you can show me another denomionation that hungers for the truth as these folks do, please come forward and share your doctrine. To those who have been hurt, I implore you do not lose your faith in the One who saved you. Don't let the actions of a church or a person affect your relationship with Jesus. If you never again step foot into a United Pentecostal Church, make sure you still keep your relationship with Christ. I love you and am praying for you, adam shaw and Dennis Brown | ||
| Anonymous |
I'm a former UPCI Minister. By the grace of God I'm no longer a member of this heretical group. They deny the Trinity, the Finish work of Calvary, the doctrine of Grace, teach you must speak in tongues & be baptize in Jesus Name to be saved. I wonder how the deaf can speak in tongues? God makes it clear in Scripture how to be saved "John 3:16, Acts 2:21, 4:12, 16:30-31, Romans 10:9-10." We are to be believe in Jesus, and its only by God's grace anyone is saved "not by their made up works," Ephesians 2:1-9. Yes, the Oneness Movement is heretical, and the United Pentecostal Church is a cult!!!!! | ||
| Mike |
Hi, I was involved in a United Pentecostal Church at one time, not too long ago. I was kicked out of that church, so to speak, because I did not pay enough tithes. I know that this probably sounds crazy, but that is the truth. That is exactly how it happened. My Pastor said one night that he wanted to talk to me after the service was over. So, after service, I went to the Pastor, and asked him what he wanted to talk to me about. He then told me that he had looked into my files (didn't even know that they kept files on their members), and seen that I had not been paying my tithes. So, he then told me that I was kicked out of everything that I was involved in. And, until I could start paying my current tithes, and also pay the back tithes, and the 5% interest, I would not be allowed to participate in any of the events up front. So, I told him that I wanted to change church membership. I wanted to go to another UPC. He told me that I had to get a letter of transfer to be able to do this, and that he would NOT sign the letter of transfer until I paid all that money back. Well, first of all, that money that he is talking about, is MY money, not his. And, paying tithes is between me and God, not between me and the Pastor. I ended up just leaving the church. But, they made it hard on me. First of all, we were constantly told how bad things would happen to us if we were ever to leave. And, we would come down with sicknesses. Or, we would have car accidents. Things like that were promised to us, seeing that we would no longer have the protection of God over our lives. We lived in constant fear. We were afraid to stay, but also scared to leave. They had TOTAL control over our lives. I just got to the point where I left, because I couldn't take it anymore. I tried to commit suicide a number of times. I am gay and was doomed to hell anyways, so I figured what the heck, why stay if you are going to go to hell anyways? Of course, today, I know better. But, at the time, that is why I ended up leaving the Church (cult). But, they never tried to contact me, not by phone or by mail. They didn't care about me, they only cared about the money that they thought they might be able to get from me, but wasn't able to. That is sad, but very true. Mike | ||
| Mike |
By the way, I do not know if I would consider all UPC churches to be cultic. I cannot speak for all of them. I can only speak for the particular church I was involved in. And, to me, it seemed very cultic. It was cultic! I was lured into that church because I thought that they loved me and cared about me, but soon I found out that this "love" was conditional. It was NOT the un-conditional love that God offers us. They would only "love" me if I was straight, but seeing that I was gay, I was a lost cause, and did not recieve the love that the other members recieved. Found this church to be very judgemental, and extremely anti-gay. Mike | ||
| Anonymous |
Mike don't give up on the Lord because of a bad church. He still loves you the same as when you were in that church. | ||
| Mike |
Thanks, Anonymous, I won't give up on the Lord, although, for a while, I did. I still have problems knowing what to believe, and what to feel. It is like I don't feel comfortable going to another church, because I was always told, "Mike, if you go to another church, you will go to hell, anyways, so why go???" If you ever get out of the UPC, you might as well not waste your time going to any other church, because you will go to hell just because it does not agree with the UPC doctrine. You know how they say that any other doctrine is FALSE doctrine. And, a large part of me still believes this ... that it would be useless to go to any other church. And, I wish that I could shake that. I want to go to church, and feel God at church. But, I just feel very awkward about going to another church. I don't feel that God is in any other church, because I don't feel that same rush that I felt when going to UPC. I don't know what to think. I am so confused. Mike | ||
| Anonymous |
You may find some help at this web site: http://www.spiritualabuse.org | ||
| Mike |
Thanks, Anonymous, I will check that out. It seems like someone told me once about that website, but never checked it out yet. I will have to do that. Thanks again! Appreciate all your help.  Mike | ||
| Krystal |
I am currently attending a UPC church. In my opinion of the church that i attend they are not a cult, these are very loving people with awesome relationships with Jesus. Everything that they do is to show their submission to the Lord. They are the most on fire for Christ church that i have seen in a long time. So for those of you who think that the UPC church is a cult why don't you give it a try, because you will get hooked and you will gain the most wonderful relationship with Jesus Christ our saviour that you could ever imagine | ||
| tim |
I ALSO THOUGHT UPCI WAS A CULT BUT IF YOU PAY ATTENTION ALL THEY ARE DOING IS SEPERATING FROM THE WORLD, THEY BOLDY ADMIT TO THAT, OF COURSE DEALING WITH THE WORLD IS A FACT, YOOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACT LIKE THEM. THEY HAVE A HIGH STRICT MORAL BELIEFS. i CAN ONLY SPEAK FROM MY EXPERIENCE WICH MAY NOT BE ALOT BUT i HAVE HAD A GOOD EXPERIENCE . | ||
| Mike |
An Update: I went back to that church the other day, and you would not believe what happened. It was a mistake to go there in the first place. I knew better. But, I guess I just missed the feeling that I always got when going there. The music, the worship, etc., ... etc., ... etc., ... But, there is a dark side to it also. I went there, thinking that I would sit down in the front pew and enjoy the music and the worship service. Well, I did. But, towards the middle of the service, I started getting a headache. So, I walked out of the church service to go out into the foier (or however you spell that). I went out there and sat down in one of the chairs. I was just trying to get rid of my headache so I could go back into the service. Well, the next thing I know, Pastor is calling one of the ushers on the intercom system, telling him that, "You let Mike know that he either has to come into the church service or leave the premises." The usher relayed that message to me. I about had a fit. I told the usher, "Oh, don't worry. I will leave. And, I will never come back again. Never!!!" He said, in reply back to my statement, "Well, that is up to you. I don't really care if you come back here again or not. I am just telling you Pastor's orders." What a "loving" church, eh?!!? So compassionate. So full of God. Yeah, right! NOT!!! Ya know, I do love God. I do love people. I have respect for leadership. But, these people don't deserve any respect. Like I said, I am not referring to ALL UPC churches. I am just referring to the church I happened to go to. They are not of God, but of Satan. Aren't we supposed to follow in Jesus' footsteps? Well, I don't think he would have treated me that way, do you? Nope, sure wouldn't have ... | ||
| Mike |
Sorry I ranted and raved about the service that I went to the other night. But, when I wrote this, I was still quite upset. So, please forgive me. I didn't mean to go off like that. The whole thing was just very upsetting. That's all. But, I should have waited until I cooled down before posting a message. I was talking to a friend of mine. He said that he has never heard of such a thing. He said that people in his church can go to the bathroom when they want, and they don't have to go up into the balcony when coming back into the service (so as to not disrupt the service). They can go right back to their seat where they were sitting before getting up to go to the bathroom. And, if they don't feel good, they can just go sit out in the foier, and wait until they start feeling better, before they go back into the service. They won't have the ushers come after you, and tell you that you have to leave the premises. I don't know. I have tried to stay away from that church. And, I have done pretty good up until the other night. But, it seems, every time I do end up going back, I see just how cultic it really is. It is worse than I ever thought it was. When I was in the church, I could not see it. But, now that I am out of it, I see it for what it really is ... a cult. There is no Pastor there. He is a dictator!!! Sad, sad, sad. And, there are so many people who are still caught up into that, many of which are my friends. But, I don't have much to do with them, because I don't want to get sucked back into it, myself. Well, I have wrote quite a long post. Please forgive me. Didn't mean to do that. | ||
| Yaakov |
If the pastor embarrassed you, then he should apologize to you. You don't need to apologize to us. | ||
| Mike |
No, I was apologizing for writing such a long post, and for ranting and raving like I did (lol). I didn't mean to do that to you guys. I should have waited until I calmed down a little before posting that message. And, then, I wouldn't have went on and on. But, yes, I agree. He should have apologized to me. But, that is the way they are. They don't apologize to anybody. Especially the leadership. They are never wrong, ya know. At least, that is the way they act. They think their stuff doesn't stink. They are holier than Thou. I hate it!!! I will never step foot into that church ever again ... | ||
| bobhickman |
http://www.ministryofdreams.freeservers.com while at church sitting and worshipping Jesus, I went off into a vision, and saw myself kneeling at a man's feet who was wearing a long robe and had dark brown hair and beard. He spoke to me and said, "tell my people to pray" | ||
| Anonyms |
I was raised in Pentecostal churches - UPC, Independent and Assemblies of God - spent my first 25 years under a lot of doctrinal control; this included a short stint in $$paid ministry. I have been "unchurched" for a number of years - in my experience each church I attended had both rigid doctrinal restrictions AND "unwritten" rules to be followed. You could be "excommunicated" for infractions such as wearing clear nail polish, cutting 1/2" off your hair (women) or having your hair 1/2" too long (men) - (but not for abusing your spouse or children)- everything was not only controlled by the minister, but a couple key families at the top of the church food chain also exacted control & influence. I have seen abuses by church leaders that would never be tolerated in "other" organizations - confidentiality issues in counselling, huge financial inconsistencies, the "nurturing" of potential members with high $$incomes to the exclusion of others, these things I saw from the "inside" as a staff member. Years later I am still struggling to know God without the interference of organized religion. | ||
| woodrow steadman |
i am enjoying reading your email site. i do pray that each one who has been discouraged for any reason will go on with THE LORD JESUS. i beleive in tongues but i do nott beleive you have to speak in tongues in order to be saved we do not teach that either. you are saved by THE BLOOD of JESUS praise THE LORD rev steadman | ||
| Anna Lexis |
I presently attend the same UPC church that I have been a part of for 25 years. I have never felt for a minute that I was part of a cult. I'm under no THUMB so to speak. I can do whatever I choose to do...whenever I choose to do it! The thing is I choose NOT to do the things that are not pleasing to God. PEOPLE make their own lives a prison within themselves...therefore blaming the leadership of the church for their bondage....this is wrong....and we better examine ourselves. | ||
| jennifer mitchell |
Mike, visit calvary tabernacle 902 fletcher ave. Pastor Paul Mooney. God loves sinners. Dont let people change your life, let god change your life. | ||
| Mike |
Hi, Jennifer, thanks for the post. I appreciate your concern. But, I don't know that I ever want to go to another church as long as I live. But, thank you so much for inviting me. I still believe in God, but I am just leary of all churches (UPC and non-UPC's). Been through a LOT ... already. Not to say that your church is anything like the church I used to go to. It probably isn't. Hope you understand. Mike P.S. I know who Pastor Mooney is, though. Pastor Mooney and my Pastor were very good friends, and still are (as far as I know). | ||
| Anonymous |
I was born into a UPC/ALJC family. Cut my teeth on a UPC pew. Revivals, tent meetings, singings, summer camp, "junior ministers training",door to door witnessing, "pray thru", re-"pray thru", - seen so much I wouldn't know where to begin. Left in my late teens and haven't been back. That was almost 30 years ago. Needless to say I am considered "lost & backslidin" by all concerned. I know I could never go back to that life, because I have seen to much since then. Yet it is still always with me. You never totally get away from who you are and how you were raised. I'm not "lookin to get saved" by the way, just exploring, so save the sermon and verse please. | ||
| Dave |
previous posting under "anonymous" is mine. My name is Dave. Are there others like me? | ||
| George |
I'm a pk , (preachers kid) , now 45 years old. This will be brief this time , if i feel like elaborating in future i may . I am married with 2 wonderful children aged 11 and 14 . My parents were very godly type people that provided well for us 5 children, but all life revolved around the upc church and organization ! My mind still goes almost numb thinking bout the terror and control that they, and all the other so called ministers heeped on me thru my life ! Never allowed to play normal activities like sports with school mates and friends on teams was very stressful for a very sporting guy here . Swimming was a nono due to need to expose ? parts of body and forbid maybe see some girls ,lol , have dif parts ?! Every normal act of rebellion ie normal childhood mischief and curiosity was eternal hell daming material ! The constant stream of ministers ?? spewing out gods love for the chosen few that have found the way and of course BROAD IS THE WAY OF DESTRUCTION THAT ALL OTHERS ARE ON ! and any questioning was as the sin of witchcraft ! can u relate ? There was no preparation for any future stages in life that we were growing into , just go to school and upc (btw only has the truth ) church services ! and the measure of a good service was if any one got saved ? or any new target might come into the church for a chance to get saved (from what ? ) . Since a baby being told of this pagan non biblical teaching of a supernatural entity diabolos ( simply an advesary , can be several types depending on situation , including ones self ) , and his demon henchmen who take over u at almost any chance causes untold nightmares and torment , especially when we are told any sin condemns us to eternal hellfire ( cant die there of course) with these creatures ! But u can have salvation which they know about cause they are Gods true church ?! And any others that don't get this salvation will burn forever ! WOW , This is only the tip of iceberg as the figure of speech says , but needless to say my children r NOT being warped and develope lifelong complexes from these and many other sick teachings ! | ||
| Mike |
I just want to say that I agree with George ...  | ||
| Anonymous |
I don't think I will ever be the same either. The church has really messed my mind up. I am just not the same person as I once was, and don't know if I will ever be the same. The church thrives on fear, guilt, condemnation, and of course, ... HELL for those who don't agree with them and those who don't conform. And, I know of people who have developed mental and emotional problems after going there. It is sad! Very sad! I am one of those people. I wish that I could just forget about everything that I experienced there, but I can't. It is like a BAD nightmare, from which you can never wake up. And, I happen to be gay also. It is even worse for gays. I was never accepted there. They would crack jokes about gays and would poke fun at us. But, I didn't think it was funny at all. I was very hurt by the whole thing. Felt very un-loved by God and by the church. Geesh, I wonder why I would feel that way. I don't think that preachers should do this (no matter how they feel towards gays). I have heard certain preachers within the movement say hateful words such as "faggot," "queer," and others. Is that displaying the love of God?!!? Nope, sure isn't. It is displaying their hatred for gays. Their true colors are showing when they do this. They talk about the love of God for mankind, yet they are displaying their hatred for certain of God's creatures when they say these things. Are they really filled with the Holy Ghost??? It sure makes you wonder. Don't it? I am not the Judge. So, I try not to judge anyone. But, I would appreciate it if they would try not to judge ME. Who are they, anyways?!!? They think of themselves as being sooooooooooooooo holy. But, they are just like everybody else. They are no better!!! And, they make up the rules as they go. What used to be "sin" is no longer a sin. It is kind of funny. Watching television used to be considered sinful in many of the churches. Now, pretty much everybody from the church I used to go to has one. And, there are many other things going on that once used to be considered sinful. But, of course, being gay is STILL considered a sin. Of course!!! They make exceptions for the things that THEY want to change ... but will quickly condemn you for the "sins" you commit because it does not affect them and they themselves are not gay. So, it doesn't bother them at all to condemn gays. Like I said, it is sad. Very sad! I don't hate the people in these churches. I just wonder why they have to hate ME. I have never done a thing to them, yet they hate me ONLY because I am gay. I am a decent person. I am a person who is full of nothing but love, yet I am not accepted and hated because I happened to have been born gay. And, yes, you ARE born gay. Either you are born gay or you are born straight. It is a scientific FACT that your sexual orientation is something that is NOT chosen. It is determined before you are even born. So, where is the choice in that?!!? There is none!!! Show me a person who used to be gay, and they now say that they have changed. And, I will show you a person who is a (miserable) liar. Or, maybe they have convinced themselves that they HAVE changed. I don't know. But, I know many people who thought they had changed. But, a year later, or maybe two years later, they went right back to being gay. The truth is that they never really changed. They were gay all along. They never changed at all. They just wanted to change. They wanted to be accepted by God and by the people at the church. So, they sometimes get married and have children. They try to FORCE (because it does NOT come naturally) themselves to have a sexual relationship with a woman or a man (someone of the opposite sex). But, later on, they realize that they had never really changed. And, then, they have to break up the relationship. And, that can really hurt a wife or a husband, and it also hurts the children a lot. They no longer have this happy little family that they thought they had. It is broken up because society and the church never accepted the person for who they were. They thought they had to be somebody else to be accepted. So, they got into a heterosexual relationship. They had children. And, now, they have to break that family up. They blame gays. But, is it really the gay person's fault? I don't think so. I think it is society and the churches fault because if they had accpeted people for who they were, then this type of a thing would have never happened in the first place. There is too much pressure for gays to become straight in this world of ours, especially in the church. And, gays then try to become straight. And, they cannot do that. It is impossible. But, they have to at least ACT like they have changed in order to be accepted. I didn't mean to turn this into a gay thing. Sorry! But, that was one of the things that bothered me most while going to the church. Their hatred for gays. I just don't understand why they have to hate so much. And, of course, they say that they DON'T hate. They just "hate the sin, not the sinner." Well, you sure couldn't prove it to me. Being gay is NOT a sin, though. And, it never has been. Say what they will, it is NOT a sin to be gay. And, God loves ALL of His Children, not just the straight ones. Didn't mean to vent. But, this really does bother me. And, I needed to get this off my chest. Hope you forgive me. Thanks for listening. | ||
| dave |
george-feb 05 posting- amazing how much your experiences and thoughts about them mirror my own. I too am a "p.k." my family were/ are wonderful people who were doing what they thought was right. however the damage from this upbringing is huge. being removed from "the world" and all worldly activities doesn't give you much to work with when you leave the church. as a boy, i wanted to play baseball So Bad on a team. watching the other kids in the neighborhood going off to practice and talking about games...and you hit the nail on the head when you said"no preparation for later stages in life". whats the point if god is returning soon/any day? we grew up in an "end of the world" mentality. one of the things I remember as i began to question the church in my mind as a teen was, why do we need to raise money to build a new church building with a 30 year loan if god is returning any day now? hmmm. the fear of hell was enormous. visiting preachers, holding revivals, all with thereown personal vision of hell that god had allowed them to look into so they could tell us just how horrible it was. I prayed and prayed to god to "make me good", to take away evil thoughts from my mind. but they just kept coming. enough for now, I will post again another day | ||
| Anonymous |
I am a member of the United Pentecostal Church, and let me say, I love all of you. For if we do not love one another, then the love of God is not in us! I was sold on this Church because it believes and preaches the EXACT same message the Apostles preached in the Book of Acts. ACTS 2:38 says, " Then Peter said unto them, Repent and be baptized EVERY ONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost." God always confirms His word, and speaking in tongues is simply the outward sign of an inward gift. The Bible says that our tongue is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. When you speak in tongues, that is Almighty God taking control of the most unruly member of the body and using it for His glory! To God be the glory!!! We Baptize in the name of Jesus Christ because that is the ONLY way anyone was ever baptized in the New Testament. Look it up, how many times was anybody baptized in the formula: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost??? It never occurs in the Scripture!! Acts 4:12 says " Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other Name (singular) under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved. We do live a life of seperation from some things that some view as acceptable. The Bible says, "Wherefore, come out from among them and be ye SEPERATE saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing and I will recieve you"... "Be ye Holy for I am Holy"...\ " Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness".... These are only a few selections of Scripture that tell us to guard ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and of the spirit. Listen to some kinds of music, watch certain tv shows and movies, go to certain places....Do you think Jesus is exalted or gets Glory by the content or atmosphere of these examples??? I read where everything God anoited, He set apart!!! There is nothing wrong or shameful about abstaining from wordly or sinful practices in order to please God in our conduct!!! I want my life and everything I do to please my wonderful Saviour, Jesus Christ! I have seen God perform miracles, I watch people being filled with the Holy Ghost all the time, This is the message that will change lives!!!!! To any that has been offended, we love you, Jesus loves you, no matter what you do, Almighty God is our Heavenly Father and He loves us with an undying love. I do not live in bondage, I do not live in condemnation, I live in Victory and liberty!!!! I have been made free from sin by the Blood of Jesus Christ!!!!! His Spirit is real, His Power is real, and it is for you today!!!! Finally, read the Book of Acts, it is the history of the early church. Does the Church you attend preach and teach these principles? Are signs and wonders following after you? The Bible says, " These signs SHALL follow them that believe, in MY NAME they sall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues...."Yes my dear friends, the United Pentecostal Church isn't right because we say we're right...its because we preach what the Bible says....God bless you all. | ||
| Anonymous |
I just had to say this,,,many times people focus on the people that are delivering a message and lose site of the message. The post man only delivers the mail, he doesn't make you get bills, he only delivers what he is given. If I can open the Bible all by myself and read that God tells us not to conform to this world and that we should live without sin(even specifically naming sins) then why would I be upset if someone only says what the Bible says. People feel condemned because they are hearing out loud what the Bible says about how we should live. Jesus preached love but he also preached to turn from your wicked ways. Sometimes people want to read only the love chapters in the Bible and ignore all the ones that condemn sin. True enough God loves us all but that isn't a license to just do whatever you want to do. Churches are just like other places,,,some may not be doing right things,,however that doesn't just turn me away from seeking Christ. There are good car salesman and those who are looking to rip you off but I don't stop searching for a car because of the one bad one. I just move on until I find one who is good. Surely Christ is worth the effort. Also, I have found that there are always two sides to every story and where you see it one way the other person may have had a whole different take on the situation. Thank God someone is standing for all the Bible and not just the love chapter.,,,and by the way ,,I am not afraid to tell you that in many places the Bible does condemn men lieing with men,,,I used to hear people say that but I didn't know and upon reading the whole bible for myself and researching that particular topic,,it does not in one written word condone it. Many times people publish their emotion as the Gospel when reality is the Bible can speak for itself with no commentary. People are driven today on a lot of emotion but the Bible is plain and clear on many issues. Jesus didn't hesitate to speak the truth. What if God gave up on us whenever we had a bad experience, we would all be in trouble. You always have an opportunity to make things right with God. He can lead and guide you to truth . God does love us all but he also detests sin. | ||
| Anonymous (205.188.209.133) |
Jesus said absolutely NOTHING about homosexuality. It seems to me that if it was so important of an issue, He would of at least said something. Don't you think?!!!? God hates judgemental attitudes. That is what He hates. Not homomsexuals. Please don't stand in judgment of ME. You will have to face The Judge one day, yourself. And, He will ask YOU what you have done in this life time. You don't want to have to hide your head in shame and say, "I went around judging people who were gay and saying that they would not go to heaven because of their "sin." It is not up to you to say whether it is sin or not. And, you cannot say whether or not I will go to Heaven or Hell. It is up to Him. Even the places where it does appear to condemn homosexuality (at first glance), if you read it a little further and if you read it carefully, you will see that it doesn't. Read the whole thing. Read with an open heart AND an open mind. Don't shut your brain off while reading. I don't say that to be mean. I am just saying that sometimes we read, but don't really read it like we should. We don't try to really understand what they were trying to get across in the text. The Sodom and Gomorrah story was not condemning gays or homosexuality. It condemned homosexual RAPE and inhospitality. Read it for yourself. Don't take my word for it. Read it and then re-read it. And, please don't try to view it through the eyes of any church. Read it for yourself. Try to develop or come up with your OWN conclusions on the text. They DEMANDED that the men (angels) be brought out to them. Sounds like rape to me. The men outside wanted to KNOW the male angels. The word "know" signifies that they wanted to have sex (forced sex in this instance). But, the whole issue was that they DEMANDED for Lot to open the door so that the men could have forced sex with the angels. It does not condemn loving, consentual homosexual relationships. Not at all. And, Leviticus condemned male temple prostitution when it said that a man and a man should not lie together, it is abomination. So what!!! Prostitution IS wrong!!! Plain and simple!!! Even if it DID condemn regular homosexual sex, it also condemns lots of other things that are common among pretty much ALL Christians today. Eating pork, touching a menstruating woman, planting two different seeds in one field, wearing certain kinds of fabric, etc., etc., etc., ... they were all considered to be an ABOMINATION. That is the same word that they used to supposedly condemn homosexual relationships. The Churches get off on this word. They like it. They say, "God used that word to signify how much He detested and hated homosexual sex." I don't know. It seems so funny to me. The same Christians who tell me that homosexual relationships are wrong, are the same people who once did NOT believe in watching television or going to the movies. It was considered to be evil, ... and sinful. Oh yes! A sin! And, now, those same people are at the movie theaters. And, they have their own television sets at their homes. Don't have to go to the movie theaters. They have access to all that filth at their homes. They want you to think that they are sooooo holy. But, they're not. They do the same things that everybody else does. They just are very careful to not get caught. And, now, it seems that they don't even care if they get caught, because now they say it is not even a sin ... anymore. They make up the rules as they go. It is obvious from the fact that they now have tv's in their homes. Many other holiness standards have fallen by the wayside, too. It's not just the tv issue anymore. Dresses are shorter, sleeves are no longer long. Etc., etc., etc., ... I am NOT attacking anybody or anybody's church. And, I hope you don't take it that way. I am just trying to point out the fact that people sit around and judge ME. Yet, they are sinners themselves. They sin EVERY day!!! Just like me!!! If there was no sin in this world, and if people could live "above" sin, then there would be NO need for Jesus to have gone to the cross. Right?!!? Right!!! Well, I have said enough. Probably too much. I just get tired of people bashing me for being gay in these churches. To listen to a preacher get up in front of the church and make gay jokes and all of that is just too much for me. And, that happens all the time. They put fear into their congregation. They also put a hatred towards gays into the people. Is that what God wants? Is that Godly?!!? I ask you to consider this. They say, "Love the sinner, but hate the sin." Yeah, that is what they say. But, is that what they do? No, not usually. First of all, being gay is not a sin. But, even if it was, they usually end up hating the "sin" AND the sinner. I will no longer be visiting or posting in this group. It is too emotional for me. When I see people attacking gays who are supposed to be Christians, it brings back all those bad memories of me sitting through a church service and having to listen to the "preacher" cut down gays left and right, and make jokes, and having to listen to everybody laughing (at myself and other gays' expense). It is NOT right!!! If YOU were gay, and you were at a service, and they were cutting you down left and right, and making jokes about YOU, would YOU want to go to church anymore?!!? No, probably not. That is NOT driven by love, but by hate. And, I want nothing to do with hate. I want to have a pure heart, full of nothing but love. Love for myself, and love for my neighbor (whether they are straight or gay). Why do people get so wound up about who others are having sex with, anyways? Why don't they just mind their OWN business? and leave others alone? I will never understand it, not as long as I live. Look at some of the tv evangelists. They condemned homosexuality, and then, THEY themselves get busted for prostitution and other serious things. Oh, and then, also for taking all the money, which the churches are famous for (and getting rich on the congregation). I am just tired of the whole thing. I don't need any religion to tell me that I am Ok with God. They are ALL corrupt. One more thing: The priests who are molesting these poor children should be shot. They are NOT homosexuals. They are pedophiles. And, there is a BIG difference. Most pedophiles are heterosexual males, actually. And, they usually molest their daughters. It is sickening!!! But, that is what the statistics say. It does not say that homosexuals are the worst offenders. It is straight people. But, you don't see me condemning straight people and saying that ALL of them are child molesters. Most are not. But, they do have the largest problems with pedophilia. There are a LOT of reasons why I believe the "Church" has so many problems with pedophile priests. But, that would take another whole page of writing. And, I have wrote enough already. Geesh!!! Sorry! Hope you all have a good day. And, God Bless each and every one of you ... | ||
| Anonymous (64.12.97.10) |
I said that I would not post in here ever again. But, I changed my mind. I have to say ONE more thing. And, that is, there are some very nice people who are in this group. And, some of them even go to a UPC. Adam Shaw and Dennis Brown are good examples of that. I seen from their posts that they are loving people. They seem very genuine. And, they go to a UPC. So, not everybody who goes to these churches are like this. I would never say something like that, because it simply isn't true. There are some very decent people who go there. I was just saying that it seems that there are a great number of people who go there who ARE very judgemental. And, that is sad. Very sad! I hope they don't plan on going to heaven. God doesn't like a judgemental attitude. He alone is the Judge, and He will judge those who try to take over His responsibility. Ok, I said it. Now, I feel better. Hope you all have a good day ... | ||
| Ron (64.12.97.10) |
Hi! My name is Ron. I want to comment on this last post. I have witnessed some of the things that this gay guy is talking about. I am not gay myself. I am happily married and have children. However I agree with him. It is not right. I used to set through services myself and wonder what it would be like if I was gay and had to endure listening to the kind of stuff that he was talking about. I would not want to stay either. It drives people away from the church and does not draw them in. What this person needs is (unconditional) love and acceptance and not a hate driven message attacking him for who he is. Wonder how long that kind of behavior would last if they were directing their hate towards blacks. Gays can't change their sexual orientation any more than a black person can change their skin color. You hear about some people who have supposedly changed. But you see them a year or two later and they are in a same sex relationship. Truth is they never changed to begin with. They just wanted to be accepted and loved so bad that they complied with the church's teachings and rules. And if they really did change they weren't gay to begin with. They just had an interest (and wanted to experiment) in same sex relationships but could go both ways. If you are truly gay you cannot change. Can a person who is truly straight convert over to a same sex relationship? Didn't think so. I know I can't. Anyways I seen on the news a while back how even the guy who was President of the ex-gay movement resigned. He said that he was wrong and that gays could not really change who they are. He apologised for all the misery and anguish he put gays through trying to get them to change while he was President. He spoke of the numerous suicides that took place because people got so frustrated trying to become something that they could not become. Parents sometimes no longer accept or love when they find out that their son or daughter are gay. The love vanishes. Just accept your sons and daughters for who they are. I have two sons and one daughter and if my sons or daughter come up to me one day and tell me that they happen to be gay I will still love them just as much. I would love them all the more because they would need more love living in a world like this where it is almost acceptable to hate and discriminate against gays (especially in the church). | ||
| Niquilla (172.129.143.110) |
Hi I would just like to say that I am an ex UPC and I know everything that the church does to lure you in. I have been in church since the day I was born. In 2000, I was baptised in Jesus Name and have already recieved the Holy Ghost ever since I was about 2 half years of age... and 6 when i was refilled in a Pentecostal Church. What I do have to say though is my biased opinion, and that is what I do believe: I believe in Worship, Prayer, The Holy Ghost. However, I do not believe that you must do such and such to enter the Kingdom of God. I believe that Jesus loves us for who we are. We cannot change what we cannot change and that's all I really gotta say, But what I have read, I mean these posts, are really quite outstanding well because THAT'S WHAT SOME but MOSTLY ALL do! They make fun of gay's and kick you out of church if you are not sitting in church!!!! Also get this: THE CHURCH WILL NOT LET ANY OF THE YOUTH (BOYS AND GURLS) SIT TOGETHER! girls must sit with gurls and boys sit with boys, if not then you have to... SIT WITH YOUR PARENTS! what a sin really... well you know the rest of this pathetic church but let me also add, some of the people there are wonderful! But I don't know how many times I was sent back to sit with my mother! I am a 19 yr old women and does not have to be told to sit with my parent! I'm sorry, just not for that at all! Toodles and will be back to update! | ||
| Trent Shel (216.136.103.194) |
WOW! So much love here! I too was raised UPC (all my life) and am presently a UPC minister. There's no way for me to comment on the various points here, but please note the following: Mike - you had a bad experience. It sounds like that pastor was VERY wrong. Don't go back there. But don't give up on truth. And I'm not so sure Bro.Mooney would be "friends" with that pastor! PKs - you're parents weren't perfect. Maybe they were too hard on you, it happens. Don't trash UPC because you didn't like the way you were raised. Blame that on bad parents, bad pastors or life in general - but don't blame it on the entire fellowship. I'm neither hard on my kids or my saints, so I don't think I'm responsible for the shortcomings you experienced. And no, I'm not "liberal" either. I believe the "ole, timey" message, I just present it differently. Gay defenders - give it up. There is no biblical defense for homosexuality. God designed male and female to reproduce. He did that for humans as well as all other animal creatures. Ever seen gay animals? Doesn't happen. Sorry that someone offended you in the way the presented that. I can say that not all ministers (whether UPC, Baptist, Methodist, etc.) are all different. The way the preach is different. So it's not fair to bash all for the failures of the few. There are some of us who are tolerant, patient and loving in our message. In the words of the youth of today, "don't be a hater!" | ||
| Niquilla (172.149.226.198) |
Hi I am back to update. First of all, no one's hatin anyone. Secondly, I am not defending gay rights. I am against the principle of homosexuality. Finally, I do believe that God should do the convicting and not man. Now, I am not saying that everyone is controlling in church but MOST of them are. They make little problems expand (sitting with parents at age 16 and up) So there yu have it and... Toodles! | ||
| terry (205.188.117.20) |
I AM A FORMER PK IN THE UPC. MY DAD WAS PUT OUT BY THE UPC.THEY WANTED ANOTHER PREACHER TO TAKE THAT CHURCH.THAT WAS 30 YEARS AGO,NOW THE CHURCH IS ONE OF THE LARGEST IN TEXAS.BUT IT IS NO LONGER IN THE UPC.I TRIED TO STAY WITH THE UPC,I WAS NOT WELCOME.ONLY PK ARE ALLOWED TO GROW IN THE UPC. THIS WILL COME BACK TO HURT SOME PEOPLE THAT DID ME WRONG YEARS AGO.I AM NOW A MULTI-MILLIONARE ,BUT I DO NOT GO TO ANY CHURCH REGULARLY.I RESPECT ALL MINISTERS ,I KNOW IT IS A HARD JOB.THE RESPONCIBILITY THAT GOES WITH THAT JOB IS AWSOME.I DO NOT THINK A PREACHER CAN BE PAID TOO MUCH.I HAVE SEEN THE SACRIFICE THEY MAKE. I AGREE THAT SOME ARE TOO MUCH A DICTATOR. GOD WILL TAKE CARE OF ALL SINS,NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE.I NOW BELIEVE THERE ARE SINCERE PEOPLE IN ALL RELIGIONS.GOD WILL BROADEN THEIR KNOWLEDGE WHEN APPRPRIATE.--SORRY FOR THE RAMBLING.. | ||
| fossill (203.117.33.23) |
Hi, I am in a church which subscribes to all the doctrines of UPC - oneness and everything, but we're not UPC. I think that it is very possible that people try to "manage" other people and "make" them follow the rules. But there is no conviction in the 'down-line'. It's mere conformity. There're a lot of very nice and good people in UPC churches, but it can also be breathlessly difficult to differ out of the official guidelines. This makes it difficult for any struggling believers. It distracts you from really knowing GOD for who He is, and loving Him not just doing the A-Z. | ||
| Anonymous (68.103.140.88) |
Hi. I attended a UPC for a couple years. I loved it, too! Even though they were strict in some things, to me, it made sense to be. Think about it. The way most women today dress and behave,(and men, too) it's no wonder there are so many problems in relationships, with rapes, etc. The world NEEDS to have a little more humility in both dress and action. And watching TV and all the violence and sex it offers, encouraging kids to do likewise, dress and makeup,be as thin as possible, (girls with men's haircuts, men with girl's long hair and ponytails, gendermixing clothing, etc. Sad. I am no longer UPC or any religion , but I don't disagree with many of their reasons for them. | ||
| Mark (24.143.30.204) |
What is so ridiculous about seperating the youth by putting boys in one section and girls in another at church services. The reason for this is to control young hormones. Does not anyone remember the ages of 12-18? Do you not remember how pre-occupied with the opposite sex you were (or atleast it should have been the opposite sex). The reason for seperating the sexes in the youth during church services is simply to try and help the young person to focus on the message being given rather than the pretty or handsome face that might be sitting next to them if there was no seperation of the sexes during service. Also this is not a set standard of the UPC. Never has been, its just that many pastors have seen the wisdom in practicing the seperation of the sexes during church service. That said if you lose out on God simply because you were seperated from the opposite sex during a service, was your heart ever right in the first place. Im sorry for those of you that have had bad experiences with UPC churches, the majority of UPC churches are not like the ones described. People often forget that the man behind the pulpit is just that a man, and no man is perfect. You must also remember that these men have been called of God to try and bring you to a place where you can receive salvation, and in a way God has put them in a partial responsibility for you soul (In the sense that he has been called to guide you in the truth). Great is this burden of being responsible for souls, that some of these men become over zelous and hardline in their pursuit to bring you to the truth. If they are being to hard on you, God will judge them for their mistakes. You just have to do as what was said above, focus on God and the message being given not the imperfect vessel being used. Dont ever lose your salvation over one church or one man or a small group of people. Also the statement made that unless you are a PK in the UPC you will never be greatly used in the ministry within the UPC organization is a lie. True one has a greater chance if you are PK simply because you know many area ministers because of your fathers contacts with those ministers, and these ministers help you get started in your ministry by using you in their churches. The reason why non pk's have trouble breaking into the ministry is because they were not privelaged to receive the contacts growing up thatpks had. True non pks may have to work harder to be used in a great realm, but it is more than possible. Some of the UPC's greatest ministers were from horrible backgrounds. And also who is to say that being a supertindent is a greater work of God than being an youth pastor in a tiny church that no one has ever heard of? If one can not serve a small church, then he can never be used greatly in a position where everyone will know his name. Men who are in high positions within the UPC organization, somewhere in their story is great sacrifice. This sacrifice is never seen to the masses. Only the "glamour" of this position is seen by the masses. I will not deny the politics within the UPC, but I will say that the UPC is not the only christian organization with this problem. In fact show me one organization where politics arent playing a hand. Even in independent churches the story is the same. The UPC is not a cult. Its members are apart of the UPC and abide by what they are taught by their own free will. No one forces them to do any thing. GOD BLESS | ||
| Donna Simpson (205.188.117.20) |
Dear Mike,I feel your pain and I understand what you are going thru.I was hurt very bad by a apostolic Petecostal preacher at one time and I vowed to never step back into a apostolic church again.I know how you feel,but I also can tell that you really love the lord and you have had a very deep experence with him.I went to another Apostolic Pentecostal churc and now I have the best pastor ever!!!Maybe you should change organizations thats what I did .I was upc and now Im Aljc.Thers a world of difference.You dont find the same ministers being so close so you wouldnt feel funny.Dont say anything to any one about your past.Just start fresh and If someone wants to know you background in pentecost let them know that thats a sore spot and leave it at that.The LOrd is the only thing that matters.Let go of your hatred.Wish your old paster the best and move on .Please email me!1In Jesus name Acts238Donna@aol.com | ||
| robert (134.68.175.169) |
http://www.geocities.com/ministryofdreams/ end time visions and dreams from Jesus | ||
| dead2self (dead2self) New member Username: dead2self Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 65.4.144.45 |
I stumbled across this sight after typing in UPCI youth activitys in the search bar and just wept after reading a few entries. I am one of those mindless brainwashed females of which many have spoken of through out this sight. But hey you bash all of us poor indoctrinated, helpless women for our good and in love of course right? Let me just inform you that no man forces or degrades me and causes me to dress anyway or belief anyway. It's not brainwashing but something deep inside that was not uncommon long ago, a thing called conviction. I read GOD's word, seek understanding from my precious Savior and pray each day. I do not condemn others without convictions and yet they condemn me for having convictions. I will not be intimidated by others who mock and ridicule for instance my uncut hair (it's not about length by the way) for I do this with conviction. Go to any given mall and you will see purple mow hawks, green spiked hair and stars shaved into scalps... and yet uncut hair to you is cultic and offensive. I fail to understand the logic here. Let's move on to the way I dress. I wear dresses and skirts below the knees. Oh my what a shock and poor me right? Look at your history. My Grandmother who had no belief in God wore the same, as did women in the 30's and 40's. Back then a woman wearing pants was unheard of. But apart from that why does it bother you that I desire to please my LORD in this way? This is my conviction from what I read in the word of God. I read that it was an abomination to God for a woman to wear that which pertaineth to a man. In the society I live in that meant to me that GOD wanted me to wear something not pertaining to a man and pants are from history's stand point in the USA considered men's attire. I am not asking you to share my convictions only asking that you treat me as you would wish to be treated. As for the terrible UPCI church of which you speak, let me just say the UPCI is only the ship I ride in and if they sould ever stray from the written word of GOD, I would jump ship and find another church that holds true to Gods word. As to wide spread child abuse. OH MY! If raising children to have strong convictions, morals and good manners is abuse I am guilty of your claims. I raised a beautiful daughter in the UPCI who was taught the word of God and shares many of my convictions. But some convictions she has alone that I do not share. She was not raised with a TV, never attended movies, and yet the poor deprived child graduated high school early with a 4.0, attends Bible college with a 4.0, works in soup kitchens feeding the homeless, works in Jesus houses with underprivileged children, goes to a nursing home on Sunday afternoons, and everyone who meets her never forgets her love for people or her love for her GOD. She is just beautiful within and without. Many young men desire her hand and have courted her and yet she has never been kissed or knew a man before taking her vows. You say poor her but I believe our GOD looks down and is pleased with a young lady who is willing to die out to herself and please her GOD above herself and men. I have a Son also, he is happily married, attends bible college, has given his life to the work of GOD, works with troubled teens, and preaches under the anointing power of GOD. When he was little he would not hit others who hit him because he said, "Mama I just don't want to hurt anyone." He is humble and giving. He does not wear certain clothing or jewelry or watch TV because of his convictions, yet he would never bash or look down on the teens he works with who have holes in many parts of their bodies and who come to him with minds filled with terrible images from Hollywood and hearts broken from troubled homes riddled with abuse.He chooses rather to show them compassion and love. You want to bash the UPCI as a whole and every person in the UPCI church's and then scream love love love at the same time. All I can figure is that when you call the UPCI a cult you must not truly know the church I came to love 20 yrs ago. Every denomination has it's faults a failures and they all have people who attend who really just don't take living for God serious and hurt others. I have a sister-in-law who is in the Baptist faith and yet as a child she was molested by a Baptist minister. There are people in all faiths who just hurt others and care only for themselves. Let's stop the blame game if you have been hurt in a UPCI church. You are throwing out the baby with the bath water and that's ludicrous. I have been in the UPC church for over 20 years and my life has been so very rewarding. Yes I've been hurt before but I get up and seek GOD for understanding and let Him fight my battles. Morning, noon and night I weep for souls and pray. I am not perfect , abused or brainwashed, I am just totally sold out to JESUS the lover of my soul. Pleasing Him means more to me then what anyone thinks of me in this world. I know God is real because he has healed me and my children so many times. When we went to our doctor and he gave no cure or hope, JESUS offered me what the doctor could not.Yes I go to doctors but where they failed me JESUS never has. Doctors can only do so much. Back to convictions... after what JESUS did for me anything He opens up to me in His word and ask out of me would never be to much to ask . This world calls my convictions bondage how far from the truth. What a claim for a world to make, they do so to cover up the terrible bondage they really offer. In JESUS I found true freedom. Freedom to choose. Unlike this world that made me feel I had to dress this way or that way to be accepted, unlike the world that enslaved me in addictions and convinced me that to be female I had to deck myself in jewels, paint my face and walk around half naked in order to be attractive. JESUS offered me true beautiful from the inside out. I no longer have to wear a mask. I'm happy and free. Some of you here slander me, the church I attend and my family with your letters. You speak of horrible things but let me speak of the good you over look because of just a few bad apples in a big barrel of good. I am the proud Mama of a very beautiful, 19 year old daughter, raised to love JESUS and people. This poor little abused child had no TV growing up, wore dresses, no make up and read good literature because of her own convictions, went to Africa on missions at age 16, London with AP Lit glass at age 15, graduated high school early at age 17 with a 4.0, attends bible college with a 4.0, on Saturday feeds the hungry in soup kitchens, on Fridays helps at Jesus houses with underprivileged kids, on Sunday ministers to the elderly in a nursing home and everyone she comes in contact with sees JESUS alive in her. Her time and efferts are spent on the people you say she looks down on. Her actions are enough to discredit your claims. I also have a son who attends bible college, ministers to troubled teens, is happily married and as a little boy after being asked why he didn't hit two boys back who hurt him said, "Mama I just don't want to hurt anyone." He is humble and giving. Both my kids spend their lives unselfishly for others so that bitter self centered people can come on a message board and bash them. While they are out loving a hurting world and doing something to show the love of GOD to others you have nothing better to do then to sit behind a screen and speak bitter words of hate. Ridicule me and my faith if you choose but I ask you how many Mamas today can say they have children who love others and give their lives to show them the love of JESUS. When you give as much of your life to the work of God and to others as these two brainwashed young people who were raised in the UPC church do then you won't have time for this banter. You speak of hateful things but most of what you speak is untrue. Many people in the UPCI are so very happy, love God, study his word, try earnestly to live above reproach and love souls above themselves. I do not judge those who own TVs, women who wear pants, make up or jewelry. On the other hand many do judge me for not having a TV, for wearing a dress and for my convictions. I think people just need to stop this pointless finger pointing, die out to the flesh and live for GOD. Most of what I read here is so very self centered. Dead men can't be offered by anything another does, let's do a little dying out to ourselves. MT 10:39 I am sorry if I sound angry, I am not. I solely wanted to express that things are not always what they seem. Every church you do not personally agree with is not wrong or a cult. If you were wronged by someone the bible teach you sould love those who hurt you and to pray for those who despitefully use you. That is putting GOD and others above self. When you can do that you are truly dead to the flesh yet alive in Christ. Now that I've said all that, I can get back to surfing pages again for youth activity ideas. My husband and I take time out to love young ladies and young men and teach them morals and values in hopes that they will become people who love GOD and others above themselves. We show them according to GOD's word that they can be free from the bondage of this world. Free from drugs, alcohol, premarital sex and the pain of broken homes and lives through the power of the Holy Ghost. You call the UPCI a cult but I came to know this faith as a place where one can go and know true freedom. After 20 years living a selfless life it just gets sweeter and sweeter as the days roll by. Our GOD is so GOOD! | ||
| holiness_preacher (holiness_preacher) New member Username: holiness_preacher Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Let me just say that you can not judge an organization by a single church. Each congregation is self governing, each church is different in some ways. I came to the UPCI because the Org I was in became so legalistic in their "man made rules" that I just could not function as God would have me to. I have been living and preaching holiness for some 12 or so years, I'm not going to compromise. The UPCI church I found was on target, and I am a very skeptical preacher when it comes to checking doctrine for Biblical validity. So my advice to all: check out the church for yourself. If you feel God doesn't want you there, go where God wants you. God Bless -Rev. D. | ||
| rockin4jesus (rockin4jesus) New member Username: rockin4jesus Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.0.131.156 |
I would like to say something as one who was very involved with the upc... A youth leader, music leader and was going to become a pastor... I have met controlling leaders in the upc, I've also met some wonderful people... I am not going to say that I totally agree with the upc, I don't... I believe that if anyone has a conviction, praise God. I have some of my own. I have found that some upc churches push and I do mean push their holiness standards, right down your throat, and right out the door... I think if anyone has these convictions, awesome. But they do not bring holiness and they do not bring salvation... If setting men and woman apart were the issue, beards, on men, would not be shaven... But again, I applaud any man or woman with conviction, there is nothing wrong with that. I still hold to my belief of oneness, and I will always agree with them on the issue of salvation, which has nothing to do with clothing, sorry but it doesn't, and when you see people who no longer attend the upc and hate Jesus but still have uncut hair and wear dresses you have to ask yourself what gospal are we preaching.... | ||
| rockin4jesus (rockin4jesus) New member Username: rockin4jesus Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.0.131.156 |
ooh I have to add. Our job, is to preach Jesus and him crucified, holiness, which is separation to God, comes from within... And comes from God... NOT MAN or standards based on two different texts in the bible... One of the fundementals in the upci was, "You cannot make a doctrine out of one scripture text." And Though God never changes man, unfortunatley does. so what is women's garment today, guys don't wear a woman's bra, c'mon people use common sense... Men didn't even wear pants in Jesus' day, and if they shaved their face it was a shame... If you are going to live under the law, you are indepted to live under the whole law... This is where grace comes into the picture... The law was to bring us to Christ. Our righteousness must exceed the scribes and pharisees, Cause it is his righteousness that we take on, NOT OUR OWN... I left the upci, because it was a ladder of righteous works I could never attain. You can't be good enough, and wearing a tie will not get you to heaven. Women wearing a dress, or a man shaving a beard has nothing to do with salvation, and infact might hinder some souls. But if your that weak in your faith, that you need live by holiness standards, then praise God... Discretion should be preached whether dealing with watching movies or talking to someone, and yes you should dress decently, again use common sense... Sinners know they're sinners, preach Jesus Christ, believe me, he will convict you and you'll know it... And you don't need anyone to tell you how to dress, except your parents if your under age 18... That is the biggest problem with the upci it tries to take over being mom and dad, and that my friends is wrong... God gave men and women the right to chooose, and you cannot dictate how people dress, you can suggest wearing decent clothes to church, but in daily life I can tell you if it's not right, God will let you know... | ||
| rockin4jesus (rockin4jesus) New member Username: rockin4jesus Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.0.131.156 |
I would like to address the person who spoke about homosexuality... The bible does infact tell us that one of the signs of Christ's return, was that people would be without natural affection.... Your right God does not hate homosexuals not one bit, but the bible does condemn homosexuality, Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an ABOMINATION: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. please read the first chapter of Romans... Under the law a man or woman caught in the act of homosexuality was to be put to death... That is pretty serious, Sin is sin, homosexuality is no worse than any other sin. But it is sin, surely a man who cheats on his wife cannot condemn a homosexual... Jesus does love you, but even comman sense teaches us that men and woman naturaly go together... Again the rise in homosexuality, amongst other things shows us that Christ's return is near, even at the doors... II Timothy 3 beginning with verse one This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; | ||
| rockin4jesus (rockin4jesus) New member Username: rockin4jesus Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.0.131.156 |
I did get in a chat today with the pastor of the church I now attend, I still believe in oneness. He kept challenging my belief, he asked me if I believed someone wasn't saved if they were baptized having the words "in the name of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy ghost," spoken. I said, no, but I do believe that if your given the revelation you should be rebaptized. To whom much is given, much is required. | ||
| friend (friend) Junior Member Username: friend Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.162.203.195 |
rockin4jesus...The Levitical code condemning homosexuality also condemns wearing clothes made of two types of fabrics...so watch those poly/cotten blends. It also has a lot of other laws which, if broken, lead to the death penalty including talking back to parents. Not saying you are wrong about homosexuality (although I think the church has fixated upon this just a bit too much and thus have alienated the homosexual community from God's forgiveness and redeemtive grace...and for that the church will have to give an account), but be careful when quoting the Hebrew Testament laws...there is much in there to condemn all of us. It really surprises me when Christians say in God's eyes sin is sin (which I agree with)...that homosexuality is no greater sin that any other sin...and all the while continue to feed their faces with tons and tons of food. Gluttony is a sin...gossip is a sin...hatred is a sin...racism is a sin. Where are the organizations spending millions of dollars to counter these sins? Peace, Friend | ||
| rockin4jesus (rockin4jesus) New member Username: rockin4jesus Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.0.143.200 |
I agree friend, I was trying to tell the person who brought up the subject of homosexuality, that God doesn't hate homosexuals, and That Jesus Christ does forgive... But repentence is required. And about countering sins, just preach Jesus, it's not our job to counter sins, it's our job to win the lost to Christ... | ||
| dean_edward (dean_edward) New member Username: dean_edward Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 204.83.48.71 |
This forum has taken a rather condescending tone. The UPC church is only one man made schism in the christian religion. Every schism wants to label the other a cult. The UPC denom. is very biblical in many areas and plain unbiblical and man made in doctrine in others. I challenge everyone stone-throwing here and cult-naming to examine your own faith in the light of what Messiah taught and lived rather than what spin your brand or denom. has told you. He is the one and ONLY authority in these matters. | ||
| brightman73 (brightman73) New member Username: brightman73 Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 65.1.78.86 |
I'll tell you right now that this crazy religon has done more damage to my family than you'd believe. I've seen family members tell my Baptist Mom she was going to hell and stuff. It's just CRAZY! I love their music. Mickey Mangun is one of the best singers I've ever seen. Most of their preachers are really good con-artists. The church I'm referring to is The Pentecostals of Alexandria, The Manguns. They are big with judges, congressmen, and Clinton (huh? lol) I mean, they have a LOT of pull. (Message edited by brightman73 on April 17, 2005) | ||
| ronnie1960 (ronnie1960) New member Username: ronnie1960 Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 70.185.74.242 |
I THINK THAT EVERYONE THAT THINKS UPC IS A CULT IS SO SAD.WE DO PREACH FROM THE WHOLE BIBLE. AND MOST OF THE TIME WHEN PEOPLE LEAVE THE CHURCH IS WHEN THEY KNOW THAT GOD IS REALLY DEALING WITH THEM OVER THERE CONVICTIONS AND THEY CANT HANDLE THAT.WELL PEOPLE I THINK ACT'S 2.38 SUMS IT UP.AND YOU KNOW GOD MADE APPLES AND LEMONS SO GO TO A LEMON CHURCH AND MISS OUT ON A SWEET APPLE.LOVE YA ALL}}} | ||
| turtle (turtle) Member Username: turtle Post Number: 87 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 216.24.102.23 |
well I have a thought for you how do you know these people weren't in a lemon church not an apple church. I would rather actions speak for itself. I was mixed up in a church and you know what when the preacher decided to sell beer at a church fundraiser I was happy I had been out of that church for three months and goihng faithfully somewhere else that preaches God's word. This group that sold beer was from a group called United Christian church and ministrial association affliated with Richard H Hall. Not sure his whole group is like that but something is majorily wrong when a church host a drunk party. | ||
| osirus (osirus) Junior Member Username: osirus Post Number: 42 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
Why do pentacostals think their right and everyone elses wrong? | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 129 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 |
Dear Osirus, I wouldn't say Pentecostal's are fully right. They do carry legalistic doctrines like: women should not preach, women should not wear any ornaments or make-up, women should cover their heads and so forth. They have scriptures to back their beliefs, but they misinterpret the scriptures in the above beliefs. I am not a Pentecostal, but I do believe that the Pentecost experience is for every Christian. God has placed highest priority on the Holy Spirit baptism in the Church. He is very serious about this, that everyone should receive His Holy Spirit the way the early disciples did. There is much blasphemous teaching in this hour about the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. I need to emphasize that I come from a hindu background and didn't know anything about the bible, and so I was taught by the Holy Spirit. He said most people limit Him by pushing off His Word as fanaticism and that He was unable to work in their lives as He pleased to. Christians have fought the experience of the Holy Spirit baptism, not knowing that they were not fighting against some church-doctrine but against the Word of God.The evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism is speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. Notice, this is NOT the gift of tongues. They are both same in operation but different in function. Recently in a meeting, where people didnot believe in the Holy Spirit baptism, I happened to go and in that meeting the Lord gave out a prophecy that people were to receive the Holy Spirit, and that the Joel 2 :28 experience was for our day. There were manifestations of the Spirit such as the gift of knowledge in the meeting as well, and 2 of us were worshipping in the spirit during the worship maintaining the order. But after the meeting, many of them assembled there said "It is not of God, but of the devil.". Those who believed in the baptism in the Holy Ghost and the gifts of the Spirit were shunned and spoken ill of. I had noticed that the presence of God had lifted from the place, but I kept quiet and withdrew from that meeting. Later in one or two weeks the meeting was closed(This had been going on for 3 or 4 years). The Holy Spirit is the most sensitive Person in the God-head. Jesus meant what He said when He said it was an eternal sin of blasphemying against the Holy Spirit. How careful we must be in passing judgements! Yours in the Lord, Sidharth | ||
| osirus (osirus) Junior Member Username: osirus Post Number: 44 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
Thanks Sidharth. What exactly happens when the holy spirit come on someone? | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 130 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
Dear Osirus, Thank you for asking that question. Firstly,the Holy Spirit is a real Person. He is co-equal with the Father and the Son. After the fall of man there was a conference in heaven: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There was a cry in heaven: "Who shall go for Us?". One Person stood up willingly and offered Himself: God the Son. God the Holy Spirit said, "If You offer Yourself as a sin offering for the sins of lost humanity, I offer Myself to promote You.". From that very moment, the Holy Spirit has purposed to reveal Jesus to lost humanity. From Genesis to Revelation, the Holy Spirit has purposed to reveal Jesus to lost man-kind. The Holy Spirit is a gentle Person, never barges into anyones life unless and until invited. When Jesus walked among men, very few people acknowledged Him as the Son of God. Today God the Holy Spirit is in Person on planet earth and very few acknowledge Him. Before I tell you what happens when the Holy Spirit makes His abode in a soul, I would like to tell you what it means to be born-again. I'm sure you know the foundation of salvation is faith in the eternal blood of Jesus,that raised Jesus from the dead and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. If you do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus and that He's alive, you cannot be saved. On the other hand, you must not just confess Jesus as your Savior,but as your Lord. The very split second you believe in the gospel of Jesus, the Holy Spirit takes the blood of Jesus and cleanses every bit of sin in you, making you pure, holy and righteous as heaven. In the first epistle of Peter, we read that it is the Holy Spirit of God that sanctifies us with the blood of Jesus; that means He is the Agent that uses the blood of Jesus on our soul, and we are born-again or born of the Spirit. At this point we receive the Holy Spirit as life(impersonal). "but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:10) But to receive the Holy Spirit as a Person is an entirely different experience, for which the disciples were asked to tarry in Jerusalem. In Act2, we find about 120 disciples received the Holy Ghost and spoke in other tongues, In Act 10 Cornellius and his household received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues even as they heard Peter preaching, in Act19 Paul meets with some disciples thinking they were Jesus' disciples, but seeing the lack of power in their lives , He asked them "Did you receive the Holy Ghost since you believed?". But their response was: "No we haven't even heard there is a Holy Spirit". Immediately Pail asks them with what baptism they were baptized in, for in the Christian baptism one is baptized in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. So if they were baptized in water, they would surely have heard the name 'oly Spirit'. Paul now realizes they were just John's disciples and tells them to believe in Him Who came after John, Jesus. So they believed in Jesus and were baptized in water after which when Paul placed his hand on them they received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues and prophecied. I need to emphasize the evidence of speaking in tongues is not the same as the gift of tongues. Both are same in operation, but the purpose is different. If you want to know the difference between the gift of tongues and the evidence, just compare Act2,10,and 19 with 1 Cor12 and 14. All do not have the gift of tongues, but everyone baptized in the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. This is not a Pentecostal doctrine, this is a bible doctrine. I do not have time right now to tell you about the significance of the evidence, but I can tell you that as the Holy Spirit comes in to make His abode in you, He will testify or speak through you. Please feel free to clarify. I love sharing what the Holy Spirit has taught me, if you can ask contructive questions. The Lord bless you. Yours in His love, Sidharth | ||
| setfree (setfree) Junior Member Username: setfree Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.86.101.65 |
Sidharth, Thank you for giving a very concise, clear explanation of the filling of the Holy Spirit - one of the best I've heard. I offer the following verses for your consideration in view of the following comment you made: "After the fall of man there was a conference in heaven: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit." I believe this statement is misleading as the Bible is clear that it was God's eternal plan to present Jesus as the savior of the world. It was not reactionary to the fall of man, which He foreknew and already addressed in His infinite wisdom! Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love Thanks again for a great post, and God bless you, brother! | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 132 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
The doctrine you stated is called Calvinism. According to Calvinism, God has already chosen those who will go to hell and those who will go to heaven, man has no part in it. However, this is absolutely unscriptural and unlike God's character. The predestination of the bible is not the predestination Calvin spoke of.The devil used Calvin to spew out the rotten damnable lie of a false predestination, so as to put forth his lie of 'once saved always saved' doctrine. Man has been given a free-will to choose heaven or hell. God is limited in working where ever the free will comes into play. It's not that God hasn't the power to do it, it's that He is a gentle Person. He never forces anyone to serve Him, neither barges into anyones life uninvited. Jesus died for the entire humanity, not just for a selected few. But it is always, 'whosoever will, let him come'. In Ephesians1:4, when the bible says he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. It does not mean God has already chosen them that will go to heaven and them that will go to hell. By this Paul meant that God has chosen even before the foundations of the world, the requirements of those who will serve Him: holiness and blamelessness. Sin cuts off man's relation and fellowship with God. The Greek word used for "Predestine" here is proorizo, this word is used 6 times in the NT. (Acts 4:28, Rom 8:29, 30; Ep 1:5, 11; 1 Cor 2:7) No mentioned of double predestination. Free will is still intact. God Predestined a family, not forcing who will be in the family. God has predestined the requirement of those who will be part of the Bride: those who are spotless and without any wrinkle. However, He hasn't predestined who will be part of the bridal company. You may ask , "Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin against Him?". The answer I'm sure will suprise any Calvinist, is a firm "No". God created the heavens and the earth by faith, even by His Word. He created man and woman in good faith. So much faith, so much trust- the same kind of trust He demands from us- that He refused to look into their future to see if they would sin against Him. God is saying, "If I tell man to trust in Me, I will trust him back, because I Am just." God's ways are so beautiful. Some retaliate and say,"God should have known! He is all knowing!". Well, I have a question to those who say this: Is God all powerful? God is all powerful, but where the free-will comes in He has refused to use His power to force a person to serve Him. In likewise manner, God is all knowing, but in areas where the free-will comes in, He refuses to use His foreknowledge. Here are examples from the bible, where God refused to use His foreknowledge. They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into My mind.(Jeremiah19:5) In the above passage, the Israelites had been walking with the Lord in obedience but then they backslid and burnt their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal. God says, "...neither came it into My mind.". Again we find how God refused to look into the future of men who entered into a relationship with Him in Isaiah 63: 8: For He said, Surely they are My people, children that will not lie: so He was their Saviour. Moreover, God is love and one of the characteristics of true love is: "Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." The intimate relationship , or the covenant He makes with man is as in a marriage, where the two partners become one flesh. We are the bone of His bones and the flesh of His flesh. There is much trust, faith and love. This is a true love-relationship. The very moment, a soul yields himself to God, God refuses to look into his future to see if He will disobey Him. I marvel at the fact this great I-Am trusts in mortal 'me'. "What is man that You are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?" The problem most people face is, they have some preconceived notion of the Word of God and God is unable to teach them, when they are so steeped in what they believe. Yours trusting Him, Sidharth | ||
| setfree (setfree) Junior Member Username: setfree Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.86.101.65 |
Sidharth, Thanks for the response. Very thought provoking. Let me start by saying I haven't resolved in my mind the whole Calvinism vs. Arminiasm thing; I believe that God's mind is exceedingly, infinitely greater than our's, and that there are simply some things that are "too wonderful to be known (to us)." That said, I wasn't intending to push a Calvinist viewpoint of predestination of individuals; I was simply pointing out God's foreknowledge of sin coming into this world. Without sin, what would be need for Jesus's sacrifice (the lamb slain before the foundation of the world)? In fact, the only positional statement that was of me in my previous post was" I believe this statement is misleading as the Bible is clear that it was God's eternal plan to present Jesus as the savior of the world. It was not reactionary to the fall of man, which He foreknew and already addressed in His infinite wisdom! I'm not sure how this is viewed as Calvinistic. Your statement did surprise me!!!: You may ask , "Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin against Him?". The answer I'm sure will suprise any Calvinist, is a firm "No". While I can understand how an omnipotent God can choose when and how to wield or limit His power, I have a difficult time understanding how an omniscient God can limit what He sees, foresees, and knows. I can see how He limits His actions on such knowledge; I just don't understand how He can limit the knowing. Then again, I profess that some things are too wonderful to be known... You quoted the following in support of this: They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into My mind.(Jeremiah19:5) "Mind" according to Strong's is derived from the word for "heart", and carries the connotation of "will, intellect, understanding, emotions." Psalm 139, I believe, comprises my understanding of God's omniscience: Psa 139:1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. Psa 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. Grace and peace and blessings abound to you, my brother in Christ. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 720 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Setfree, This is an interesting statement you make: "Your statement did surprise me!!!: You may ask , "Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin against Him?". The answer I'm sure will suprise any Calvinist, is a firm "No". While I can understand how an omnipotent God can choose when and how to wield or limit His power, I have a difficult time understanding how an omniscient God can limit what He sees, foresees, and knows. I can see how He limits His actions on such knowledge; I just don't understand how He can limit the knowing. Then again, I profess that some things are too wonderful to be known..." I have had conversations with people about this exact subject that you are talking about. We all agreed with what you have stated that God did not know the choice that Adam and Eve would sin. My mind, as you stated, has a difficult time understanding how God chooses not to see it. Some truths are beyond comprehension. Erich | ||
| setfree (setfree) Junior Member Username: setfree Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.86.101.65 |
Erich, Just to clarify (for my sake), I was quoting Sidharth within the quote you reference. Sidharth made the statement: "Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin against Him?". The answer I'm sure will suprise any Calvinist, is a firm "No". I (setfree) cannot comprehend how God could not know that Adam and Eve would sin. Or, removing the double negatives, I believe God foreknew that Adam and Eve would sin. Sometimes I think I should start a list of questions to ask God when I eventually stand in His presence, but then the thought of that itself (being in His presence!) makes my questions pale in comparison. God bless. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Advanced Member Username: franklin Post Number: 595 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.49.13.0 |
There is no way to "KNOW" the true answer to these questions. They are not in scripture. Any attempt of man to determine the true answer is futile and sheer speculation. When we get to heaven we will find alot of our speculations to be wrong. There we will be in the right place to get the true answers. Until then, if it is not in scripture, we can only wonder. If we supply our own answer it is only speculation, a guess. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Advanced Member Username: franklin Post Number: 596 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.49.13.0 |
There is no way to "KNOW" the true answer to these questions. They are not in scripture. Any attempt of man to determine the true answer is futile and sheer speculation. When we get to heaven we will find alot of our speculations to be wrong. There we will be in the right place to get the true answers. Until then, if it is not in scripture, we can only wonder. If we supply our own answer it is only speculation, a guess. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 724 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
I agree with both of you. | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 350 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
jason stone ... where are you? i havent seen any posts you have had latly. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 133 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 210.212.241.130 |
Dear Setfree, Yes, I understand what you're saying. I will ask the Lord on it and let you know. I myself don't comprehend it all, but I do know God trusts man to walk with Him, with the same kind of trust He tells us to have in Him. He is a God of love, He is love Himself. Even I found it hard to digest the fact that God refused to look into the future of a man, Whom He loved without any reserve. But God has the power to know and the power not to know. The Lord told me, "Who is man that He should instruct Me what I should do and should not?". I bow down to what He says. The God of the bible would not have reacted the way He did in Genesis 3, if He already knew man would sin against Him. God wasn't playing church back then and He isn't playing church today. I heard a woman who sinned say, "God knew I would sin, He saw me fall even before the foundation of the world.". This is misleading and a lie. God has given man-kind the choice to serve Him or not to serve Him. Much was lost at the fall of man, but not the free will. God never makes the choice for man-kind. He places life and death before man and says, "Choose life". He never makes the choice for any man. I will wait on the Lord for the explanation. Yours in His grace, Sidharth | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 358 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
sidharth, i agree with you. man maakes his own choices and decisions. some good some bad. GOD will lead us show us and try to get us on the right path but HE will never make a choice or decision for us. we are not robots or machines made to do a certian way we are free will people. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 134 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
Dear Franklin, That's a lot of religious talk. I agree, none of us can comprehend the Lord completely. He is way beyond what we can ever think. When I think about His vastness and greatness, my mind bursts, my mouth opens in adoration and astonishment. "There is no way to "KNOW" the true answer to these questions."-Franklin I disagree with this statement though. God loves clearing our doubts. He loves to make Himself more and more real to us. The bible is a book written so that man can know God and His character. It is perfectly alright to ask God to explain things we do not understand. If He thinks we need to know it and if He thinks it will edify us, He will surely let us know as we wait upon Him. There's a lot of religious, hypocritial talk in the Christian world today. God despises hypocrites and has no time for them. The english word hypocrite is directly derived from the greek word, 'hupocrite', which means 'actor'. When I see religious people,I am reminded of Job's friends. In the book of Job we find as Job was suffering, his religious friends came with their theologies saying, God wouldn't afflict a person who is righteous and only the wicked would suffer. This sounds very religious and spiritual, but that wasn't true in Job's case. One thing God hadn't afflicted Job, the devil did. Secondly, God allowed the devil to afflict Job so as to purify his faith. We know what Job's friends said was not true because at the end God rebukes Job's friends and says, "You have not spoken right of Me". How careful we must be in talking to those who are hurt! I'm sure if Job's friends had yielded to the Lord, they could have spoken what the Lord wanted them to speak to Job, but they came with their theology and doctrines and the Lord was limited from working in through their lives. God desires truth in the innermost parts.He hates those who put on a facade before Him. We need to throw away all the artificial talks and the special tones while praying to the Lord. We need to be frank with the Lord and outgoing with Him, all balanced with reverence towards Him. A question I always ask myself,"How transparent is my life? Can I put my whole life on a paper." Dear one, I pray you be a mouth piece of the Lord. Yours in His love, Sidharth | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 135 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 59.145.99.10 |
Here is my post(couple of posts I posted in Billy Graham Discussion Board) on what I think of homosexuality: POST 1: "Homosexuality is not caused because of a domineering father or by something that happened during one persons life. A REAL homosexual is born that way. He is born with sexual organs of one and desires of the other. It's terrible to be in that state. I qualified my statement by saying REAL homosexuals, because there are those who turn to a homosexual life style in between. A homosexual can enter heaven, as long as he doesnot put his desires in practice. The bible teaches against 'homosexual offenders', that means those who practice homosexuality. Homosexuality is a sexual deformity just as one would be born without a leg or a hand. Any form of deformity can happen today, because Adam sinned in the beginning and sold out the entire human race to the devil and sin. People have blamed God for things He had nothing to do in the past. I have compassion for homosexuals just as much I would have compassion for anyone born deformed physically. People find it easy to label something that is not their particular hang-up as unclean and demonic. They better be careful with the judgment they pass. A homosexual can enter heaven if he is born-again and if he doesn't put his desires into practice. Can a homosexual be delivered? Yes. God is the source of deliverance for all deformities: whether physical, emotional, spiritual or mental. In this final hour of the Gentile Dispensation where the Holy Spirit is being poured out without measure, anyone who desires deliverance can be delivered. It isn't just moving from a homosexual life-style to a normal life-style. It's going beyond, to the supernatural life-style found in the life of Jesus and the early disciples. God bless" POST 2:"I know many people who having this deformity in their sexuality. I have studied their cases and sought God for their deliverances. All sin, curse, disease, pestilence, hatred etc, has it's root in Genesis 3, when man sinned. When Adam sinned he sold out the entire human race to sin and the devil. When sin entered the world, sickness entered the world, curses struck in different areas, because rejecting God invites curse. In one case that I studied, God spoke to me and told me that the person was struck with this curse at the time of his birth. He said, doors had been open to this curse by someone in his family. I asked the persons mother later and found out that the persons father had for fun played with homosexuality. This was what opened doors to the curse in this particular persons life. The person related that he had infatuations for the same sex from the time he remembered. The earliest he could remember was in his kindergarden when he liked a couple of boy in his class. He related that he had never had a normal desire ever since his birth. I have just mentioned one case, but I know many such cases. Again I want to repeat, I am talking about REAL homosexuals, that is those who due to a curse were born that way. There are those who are not homosexuals who turn to that life-style, I am not interested in dealing with that. About God judging a homosexual: God isn't responsible for the calamities man has welcomed by his disobedience. Man has been given a free-will, to serve the living God, or not to. God is just in His judgments. He has provided a 'finished' work for the salvation, healing and deliverance of each an every individual on planet earth. The invitation has gone forth to every individual on planet earth, irrespective of their backgrounds, and religion. The bible teaches against homosexual offenders, not homosexuals. Homosexuals who are born-again can enter heaven as long as they don't put their desires into practice. Sin struck everyman , when Adam sinned. Every man is concieved in sin, does that mean God cannot judge? It's upto man to receive the ultimate penalty for sin or not. The devil used John Calvin to spew out, the rotten lie of predestination. The predestination Calvin mentioned is not the predestination the bible teaches. According to Calvin, God has already predestined those who will go to hell and those who will go to heaven. Why pray and fast for souls, if this is true? The Word of God shoots down this rotten lie the devil has put forth. For those interested, I can help you. But for those who want to debate, I have nothing to say to them. The word of God is not debatable. Love in the Lord" POST 3:"I don't believe homosexuality is genetic, it is a curse passed down from Adam, showed up in Sodom and still shows up in our generation. It would be stupid to say a person born physically deformed should have a physically crippled child. Homosexuality is not genetic, it is a curse I say again that falls as a result of open doors to it." SIDHARTH | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 613 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
no it is not a cult they do have some mixed up doctrines. i may have said before that they were a cult but no more. i beleive they are saved but just mixed up | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 657 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
hey turtle... you and i are famous according to not | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 701 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
not you have never tried to be friend with me there are many on this board who dont believ like i do but they are my friends even though we dont agree they dont put me down | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1128 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.40.250 |
not, I am going to ask you to apologise to arron, unless you have evidence. I haven't seen anything today showing that you do. I'm sorry this happened to you. As I said to arron, I think someone has played a cruel joke. If this continues, I am going to contact the 'ghost' also. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 709 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
godchild thank GOD for you. i am glad we can agree to DISagree. praise THE LORD | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 863 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
for the upc people... what about 11 john 1:9he that abdeth in the dictrine of CHRIST,, he hath both,, BOTH... THE FATHER AND THE SON. does this not prove that there is A FATHER AND A SON. it would not have said BOTH if not more than one. | ||
| anto_d (anto_d) New member Username: anto_d Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.123.22.111 |
In response to Arron on the trinity topic. I have a scripture for you. "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). The three terms of "father", "son", and the "Holy Ghost" do not identify three persons or personalities in the Godhead. They indicate three different roles, modes, functions, or offices through which the one God operates and reveals Himself. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1002 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
The dynamic in the Scriptures of the Father talking to the Son reflects the idea of the Trinity. In the Baptism of Jesus we see the Father speaking from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased." We also see the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descending upon Jesus Christ. Three separate persons, yet One. When Jesus is in the garden He says, "Not my will, but your will." On the cross He cries out, "My God, my God why has Thou forsaken Me?" These examples do not fit into the UPC viewpoint for me. The opposite of the UPC viewpoint is Arianism. To quote Bishop Alexander, "It is necessary to say that the Father is always the Father, He is the Father, since the Son is always with Him, on account of whom He is called the Father." There are three separate persons, yet there is one God, the Father is One with the Son. | ||
| belong2jesus (belong2jesus) Intermediate Member Username: belong2jesus Post Number: 262 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 202.83.37.33 |
Jesus as the Son of God was co-equal with God the Father, not the Father Himself. In the gospel of John, John mentions Jesus as the Word of God. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God". Jesus was with God the Father, yet Jesus was co-equal with the Father. When Jesus said, "I and My father are one". He meant He as the Son of God was co-equal with the Father and was One in purpose and will. Somewhere else, Jesus says the Father was greater than Him. As the Son of Man, Jesus was lesser than the Father. The same goes for the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the God-head. Jesus promised ANOTHER comforter. The first being Himself. The Holy Spirit though co-equal with the Father and Son, never directs the attention to Himself. He has come to glorify Jesus, just as Jesus came to glorify the Father. As you read the epistles written by the Apostles with the help of the Holy Spirit, you will often find how the Spirit directs the attention away from Himself. Sidharth | ||
| anto_d (anto_d) New member Username: anto_d Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.123.22.111 |
On the topic that sidaharth was referring to. John 14:16 says the father would send another comforter, namely the Holy Ghost, yet in John 14:18 Jesus said “I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. In other words, the comforter is Jesus in another form---in the spirit rather than the flesh. Jesus explained this in verse 17, saying that the comforter was with the disciples already, but He would soon be in them. In other words, the Holy Ghost was with them in the person of Jesus Christ, but the Holy Ghost, the spirit of Jesus Christ, soon would be in them. Jesus further explained this point in John 16:17, saying that he had to go away or else the comforter would not come. Why? As long as Jesus was present with them in the flesh He would not be present spiritually in their hearts, but after He physically departed He would send back his own Spirit to be with them. “But the deity of Jesus Christ is not the Holy Ghost brother anto_D. They are both separate persons”. NO. The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:19) and the spirit of the son (Galatians 4:6). Corinthians 3:17 says of the one spirit, “Now the lord is that Spirit” The NIV puts it even plainer, for it says, “Now the Lord is the spirit” and “the Lord who is the Spirit”(verse 18) In short, the Spirit that is resident in Jesus Christ is none other than the Holy Spirit. The Spirit in the Son is the Holy Ghost. BELOW ARE SOME PARALLEL VERSES OF SCRIPTURE WHICH FURTHER REAVEAL THAT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IS THE HOLY GHOST. 1. The spirit of Christ was in the prophets of old (I peter 1:10-11), yet we know the Holy Ghost moved on them (II Peter 1:21). 2. Jesus will raise the believer from death (john 6:40), yet the spirit will quicken (give life to) the dead (Romans 8:11) 3. The spirit raised Christ from the dead (Romans 8:9-11), yet Jesus said HE would raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21) 4. The Holy Ghost abides in the hearts of Christians (John 14:16), yet Jesus promised that He would abide with his followers to the end of the world (Matthew 28:20). Similarly, believers are filled with the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:4, 38), yet it is Christ who dwells in us (Colossians 1:27). 5. Ephesians 3:16-17 says that by having the Spirit in the inner person we have Christ in our hearts. 6. Christ sanctifies the church (Ephesians 5:26), yet the spirit does (I Peter 1:2). 7. The spirit is our intercessor (Romans 8:26), yet Jesus is our intercessor (Hebrews 7:25) | ||
| anto_d (anto_d) New member Username: anto_d Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.123.22.111 |
Also On Brother Sidaharth's view of God and the Son being co-equal. If Father and Son are Co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the father? (Matthew 11:25). Can God pray to God? Similarly can the Son not know as much as the Father? (Matthew 24:36) You yourself said that "Somewhere else, Jesus says the Father was greater than Him. As the Son of Man, Jesus was lesser than the Father". How can you say they are co-equal and then say that one is inferior to the other? You Believe in God the Father , God the Son , God the Holy Spirit. Did "God the Son" die? The Bible says the Son died (Romans 5:10). If so, can God die? How Can God the Son be eternal when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, Clearly indicating that the son had a beginning?(John 3:16;Hebrews 1:5-6. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was his mother at that time? We know the Son was made of a woman( Galatians 4:4) If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchangeable), How can the reign of the son have an ending.(I Corinthians 15:24-28) Nowhere in the Bible does it say that they were Co-equal and nowhere in the Bible Does the word Trinity come up. Its very simple. JESUS IS GOD. THEY ARE ONE. The Old Testament testifies that Jesus is God. Isaiah 9:6 "For Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, the everlasting Father, The prince of peace.” The terms child and son refer to the incarnation, or the manifestation of "the mighty God" and "the everlasting Father". Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:22-23). The Bible clearly tells us that Jesus is God. But remember he is God manifested in the flesh.” God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the entitles, believed on in the word, received up into glory"(I Timothy 3:16) Therefore he is God Himself. The reason that Jesus prayed to the father is because it was his flesh praying. You must remember God became Man and needed to eat and sleep just like us. Since I already explained how the Holy Spirit is God in Jesus and since God is the Holy spirit and the Holy spirit is in Jesus this therefore means that Jesus is God. You must understand the reason For the title of Jesus as the Son of God. He is the son of God because he was conceived by the spirit of God, Making god literally his Father (Luke 1:35). In short, the title “Son of God recognizes the humanity while calling attention to the deity of Jesus. It means God has manifested himself in the flesh. We should also note that the angels are called Sons of God (Job 38:7) because God created them directly. The title of Son of God does not mean that jesus is a seperate God From God and neither does the Holy Ghost.They indicate three different roles, modes, functions, or offices through which the one God operates and reveals Himself. There is One and only One true GOD.This is the truth and it comes from the word of God. } | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 964 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.32.209 |
i think it has already been explained by the last few posts. there is THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST. THEY ARE THREE IN ONE, YET THEY ARE SPERATE BEINGS. THE SON IS THE ONLY ONE WHO BECAME FLESH | ||
| anto_d (anto_d) New member Username: anto_d Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.123.22.111 |
Brother arron, You completely missed what I was explaining. I am not saying that the Father , The Son and the HolyGhost are seperate persons or Gods but that they are one with three different roles, modes, functions, or offices through which the one God operates and reveals Himself. Read My post carefully and pray that God will open your eyes to the truth. then read it (Message edited by anto_D on January 03, 2006) | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 966 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.32.209 |
they are three distinct beings. THE FATHER IS IN HEAVEN, THE SON ON THE EARTH, THE HOLY GHOST WAS ABIDING IN JESUS, AND IS NOW ON THE EARTH | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1005 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Brother Anto_D, "I am not saying that the Father , The Son and the HolyGhost are seperate persons or Gods but that they are one with three different roles, modes, functions, or offices through which the one God operates and reveals Himself. ..." There is a part in the Athanasian Creed that says, "neither dividing the Substance nor confounding the Persons." We would all agree that dividing the Substance, making three separate Gods would be polytheism, like Arius, JW's, or the Way International. A person would no longer believe that Jesus Christ is One with the Father, not God Almighty come in the flesh. They would be going to hell staying with this belief. Clearly, Isaiah 9:6, and Isaiah 44:6 declare that there is only One God. My difficulty and problem with "Oneness" theology is that it confounds the Persons. As Arron says, there is a clear distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, throughout Scriptures, yet as Isaiah 9:6 is very clear a Oneness. I believe the Oneness is found in the doctrine of the Trinity. The Creed called the total understanding of this "uncomprehensible." Your presentation of Oneness theology is the best use of the Scriptures I have ever seen to support the idea. It is true that the danger of people that believe in the Trinity is that some make the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into three different gods. They no longer understand the doctrine of the Trinity, nor more importantly the Scriptures. This is clearly incorrect based on the Scriptures you have given. I submit to you that the Scriptures you gave do not contradict the true meaning of the doctrine of the Trinity as described by the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds. Just one other point: "How Can God the Son be eternal when the Bible speaks of the begotten Son, Clearly indicating that the son had a beginning?(John 3:16;Hebrews 1:5-6. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation..." The point is that the Word knew He was the Son from eternity, and the Father was the Father from eternity. The "US" of Genesis 1:26 is the Word, and "US" shows a separation of Persons within the "OUR IMAGE". John 1:1 "The Word was with God and the Word was God..." Erich | ||
| anto_d (anto_d) New member Username: anto_d Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.123.22.111 |
Brother Erich, You make excellent points to this scripture in defense to the doctrine of the trinity “And God said, let us make man in our image”(genesis 1:26) Why does this verse use a plural pronoun foe God? Before I answer this, let us note that the Bible uses singular pronouns to refer to God hundreds of times. The very next verse uses the singular to show how God fulfilled verse 26: “so God created man in his own image”(Genesis 1:27). Genesis 2:7 says, “And the lord God formed man.” We must therefore reconcile the plural in 1:26 with the singular in 1:27 and 2:7. We must also look at God’s image creature, which is humanity. Regardless of how we identify the various components that make up a person, He definitely has one personality and will. He is one person in every way. This indicates that the creator in whose image humans were made is also one being with one personality and will. Any interpretation of Genesis 1:26 that permits the existence of more than one person of God runs into severe difficulties. Isaiah 44:24 says the Lord created the Heavens alone and created the Earth by Himself. There is only one creator according to Malachi 2:10. Furthermore, if the plural in Genesis 1:26 refers to the Son of God, how do we reconcile this with the scriptural record that the Son was not born until thousands of years later in Bethlehem? The Son was made of a Woman (Galatians 4:4); if the Son was present in the beginning, who was his mother? If the Son was a spirit being, who was his spirit mother? Since Genesis 1:26 cannot mean two or more persons in the Godhead, what does it mean? The Jews have traditionally interpreted it to mean that God talked to the angels at creation. This does not imply that the angels actually took part in creation but that God informed them of his plans and solicited their comments out of courtesy and respect. On at least one other occasion God talked to the angels and requested their opinions in formulating his plans (I Kings 22:19-22). We do know that the angels were present at the creation (Job 38:4-7) Other commentators have suggested that Genesis 1:26 simply describes God as He consulted with his own Will. Ephesians 1:11 supports this view, saying that God works all things “after the counsel of his own will”. By analogy, this is similar to a person saying “lets see” (let us see) even when he is planning by himself. Others explain this passage as a majestic or literary plural. That is, in formal speaking and writing the speaker or writer often refers to himself in the plural, especially if the speaker is royal. Biblical examples of this can be cited to illustrate this practice. For example, Daniel told King Nebuchadnezzar,( imagine if you named your Kid that) “We will tell the interpretation thereof before the King,” even though Daniel alone proceeded to give the interpretation to the king(Daniel 2:36). King Artaxerxes alternately referred to himself in the singular and the plural in his correspondence. Once, he wrote, “The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me” (Ezra 4:18). In a letter to Ezra, Artaxerxes called himself “I” in one place (Ezra 7:13) but “we” in another place (7:24) The use of the plural in Genesis 1:26 also may be similar to the plural Elohim in denoting the greatness and majesty of God or the multiple attributes of God. In other words, the plural pronoun simply agrees with and substitutes for the plural noun Elohim. If you would like more explanations I can write more for you. I would have given more to you but I have school tomorrow and must go to bed. God Bless You,  Your new Bible study friend Anthony. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1014 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Dear Anthony, I would like to share with you a story of another Anthony, the Catholic church calls him Saint Anthony regarding an experience he had in explaining the Trinity. The background of the story has to do with a false teacher by the name of Arius, the Bishop of Alexandria at the time was Bishop Alexander, and his right hand man who later became the Bishop of Alexandria, Athanasius. Arius believed in the godhead the way the JW's, and The Way International believes in the godhead, namely that there are three separate gods, and that Jesus is a lesser god, a created being. This is definite heresy. The story is told in the book written by Athanasius called, "The Life of Antony", written around 360 AD, with the incident taking place around 340 AD. It is not too far off the subject at hand. "On another occasion when the Arians falsely claimed that he held the same view as they, he was quite irritated and angry at them. Then, summoned both by the bishops and all the brothers, he came down from the mountain, and entering Alexandria, he publicly renounced the Arians, saying that theirs was the last heresy and forerunner of the Antichrist. He taught the people that the Son of God is not a creature, and that he did not come into existence from nonbeing, but rather that he is eternal Word and Wisdom from the essence of the Father. "So," he asserted, "it is sacrilegious to say 'there was when he was not' for the Word coexisted with the Father always. Therefore you are to have no fellowship with the most ungodly Arians, for there is no fellowship of light with darkness. You are God-fearing Christians, but they in saying that the Son and Word of God the Father is a creature, differ in no way from the pagans, who serve the creature rather than the Creator. Be assured that the whole creation itself is angered at them, because they number among the creatures the Creator and Lord of all in whom all things were made." It is an interesting story to me. Just leaving a few thoughts. Revelation 13:8 - "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast - all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world." Genesis 1:26/3:22/11:7 Before the world was created there was Christ with God. John 1:1 The Word was with God and the Word was God. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The Word knew He was the Son from the creation of the world. God is outside of time. There is also the truth of Oneness in the Trinity. The "one substance of the Father" of the Nicene Creed and The Athanasian Creed bears this truth out. The Creeds have been forgotten by many Fundamentalist that believe more like JW's than the original ideas of the Trinity, they believe the Son to be under authority of the Father, like Origen. They are wrong and I know of cases where they have left the Christian walk due to unbelief that Jesus Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh. Isaiah 9:6, Isaiah 44:6 is Truth. Erich |
