| Author | Message | ||
     terra_cognita (terra_cognita) Member Username: terra_cognita Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.33.104.166 |
One of the most interesting statements of the SC covenant was "we entered into this labor of love to honor him, his life, and that portion of the Body of Christ entrusted to his pastoral care." This is in essence an act of maintaining and preserving the legacy of CHS. Everyone has a legacy. One's legacy is often a mixture of good things and bad things. Obviously we want the value of our lives to be passed on and not the things that lacked value. As children of God, the foremost legacy we leave is the legacy of Jesus Christ. That legacy is represented in the story of the fishes and the loaves. Jesus asked the disciples what they had and to give that. Our legacy is faithfully passing on what Christ has given us and passing it on to others. Another important factor to one's legacy is how one finishes his/her life. If the ministry’s integrity and reputation has been questioned and there are the seeds of disintegration (destruction) of the ministry; the leaders need to recognize and communicate more clearly that the blame is not primarily due to the wiles of the devil but the improper doctrines, conduct and values that CHS has passed on the to leaders and attendees. The SC covenant reveals that GGWO leadership is content with a CHS legacy that is exclusive of the universal body of Christ and the rest of the world. This is improper thinking because his legacy cannot be confined to GGWO. The current discernment of CHS' character and values with the universal body of Christ and some outside of the church is not viewed in a favorable light. CHS and GGWO can pretend that everyone is against them but the facts remain that there is a consistent trail of false doctrines, conduct and values that comes from CHS and is passed to leadership. CHS and leadership project the exclusivity of CHS' legacy in the following ways. 1) They will not state that CHS is the author and propagator of the false doctrines. It is important to state that these doctrines were taught by CHS. The SC covenant implies that CHS' teachings were correct but misapplied. They were incorrect. If changes are made without statements of who is responsible, attendees will wonder why the change. It will also lead to people talking behind the scenes that CHS was wrong in teaching them but "we don't want to say anything because it might hurt him or hurt his legacy." This lacks honesty, transparancy, and repentance. 2) Failure to own up the fact that the application of these false doctines have caused harm and defamed the character of many individuals. Most people left because of abusive leadership behavior and application of false doctrines or misapplication of doctrine. These people are not evil because they left. But GGWO continues to speak of them as evil and therefore feel they are not responsible for their sins toward them. 3) Failure to discipline CHS for sins of lying, slander, gossip and marking people. (a short list of sins perpetuated against individuals). 4) Failure to discipline CHS for sins of drug abuse. 5) CHS' lack of accountability with the SC document. I may be wrong but I don't see his signature on the document. Is he not accountable to the results of the meeting he commissioned? CHS greatest asset is/was the ability to motivate people around the great commission and convey that a church should be strong in teaching, missions, and church life. But his asset was twisted because of personal gain and the result is a legacy of false doctrine, abusive and manipulative leadership, lack of personal accountability, misappropiation of finances, and liberty to sin without discipline. Loyalty to CHS and ministry is also placed above the welfare of the family unit as evident in the break up of many families. If CHS' and GGWO leadership want to preserve the legacy of CHS then the proper course of direction is complete transparency and public repentance. | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 269 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.27.65.126 |
Terra, I agree with you fully. If there was integrity to be found among the leadership of GGWO, the things you listed would be addressed. But instead, they show that the most important thing is NOT doing the right thing. The most important thing is Carl. There is no integrity at GGWO. | ||
| jeannie (jeannie) Intermediate Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 450 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Thank you Terra! Very well thought-out presentation and your conclusion is irrefutable. The Sandy Cove documents are very telling to the mindset and the future direction of the leadership of GGWO and their affiliates. The results will be more people leaving, further crumbling from within. | ||
| anon_brief (anon_brief) Intermediate Member Username: anon_brief Post Number: 192 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
Every day - every moment - that passes without the leadership of GG actively and aggressively pursuing transparency, truth, accountability and repentence diminishes the legacy of Carl Stevens. Men who profess to hold Stevens in high esteem are allowing him to be dishonoured by their inaction. They are invalidating his lifelong ministry, not his critics. They are fomenting the cloud of shame which has gathered over Stevens and his ministry. | ||
| bjerwin (bjerwin) Intermediate Member Username: bjerwin Post Number: 150 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 65.32.100.94 |
I agree with all of you; however what if... The children recognize the "father" is wrong and sick if not senile. In an effort to "honor" him for half a century of serving the Lord, and knowing the end will be soon... they are holding off the scolding in an effort to "save face" for dad.... (Isn't there a story of Noah and his sons like this?... the sons rerated for uncovering the father's drunkenness?) They had the SC convention because there was a church split coming where a bunch of pastors were going to leave with their churches... In an effort to save face for "father" and save those siblings ready to bolt, they did a little "spinning" to make everyone happy. Let's face the facts... CHS has been confronted about this and other major issues many many times before. My God, he threw his own son Paul out last year... I know it is wrong, it is characteristic of TBS, but also many organizations... the "spin" is nothing new. I can't remember who put the Armstrong story in another thread, but I read it and was amazed (while I realize I shouldn't have been.. doesn't proverbs say there is nothing new under the sun?) at the similiarities between that church and GGWO. I hope that after CHS passes on to heaven, these men will do what Armstrong's church did and repent of the false doctrine and get on to what God thinks. Just my opinion. | ||
| louise_connolly (louise_connolly) Intermediate Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 |
Very good Post Terra: Failure to discipline CHS for years of adultery and fornication should also be added. GGWO's leaders can't change because for them to change it means losing their hefty paychecks and the adualtion of the masses. These leaders do not know how to do anything else but what they do. True repentance means giving up their belief that they are spiritually superior to all and therefore all others can be used to their own gain guised under serving Jesus. | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 271 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
The thing is that GGWO IS Carl Stevens! If you don't confront Carl, you aren't confronting the abuse and messed up doctrine. If you preserve his legacy, you are preserving abuse. That IS Carl's legacy. He has NOT spent the last 50 years serving Christ. He has spent the last 50 years serving his own giant ego. He then demands that his followers serve that ego and then calls it serving Christ. This cult is ALWAYS going to be about Carl. | ||
| rjfernalld (rjfernalld) Advanced Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 930 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.203.154.97 |
BJ Giving Carl a free pass, ie no discipline or requirement od accountability THIS side of heaven is sin, and not honoring a legacy. There are larger principles involeved here than just Carl being old. "Saving face" is not what is needed for the healing....honest accountability is. "I hope that after CHS passes on to heaven, these men will do what Armstrong's church did and repent of the false doctrine and get on to what God thinks." This may actually be the prevailing sentiment, but it sends the wrong message and if they choose to wait until Carl dies it sets a "satanic precenent" that will simply leave the door open for more abuses of power. The issue must be dealt with BEFORE he dies, or an excuse for no accountbility from a leader will continue. I realize the sentimental aspect for some, but this must not be dealt with in any sentimentality....or there will be nothing new to build on, if in fact that is their goal. | ||
| terra_cognita (terra_cognita) Member Username: terra_cognita Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.33.104.166 |
bjerwin, You may be right in your assessment of their efforts to "save face" for dad. But it seems pretty odd that a church that purports to be "right on" with doctrine is "so off" in being accountable to it. It is also odd that CHS and GGWO would be content with a legacy that is a reproach to the universal Body of Christ. But then I forgot that they are better than all other churches.... which leads me to another statement in the SC covenant, "We pledge to confront those who would cause division within the Body of Christ..." They use the term "Body of Christ" with a universal connotation. It is repulsive the way they use this term sometimes referring only to themselves and then encompassing themselves with the true Body of Christ. CHS denigrates every Christian church, ministry, or speaker that visits GGWO and the leadership nod in agreement. They use other Christian speakers and ministries for their self-serving ways and then tear them down behind their backs. Hypocrisy. BTW, CHS also tears down his affiliate pastors who co-labor with other ministries. | ||
| arguendo (arguendo) Intermediate Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 170 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
"The thing is that GGWO IS Carl Stevens!" Gotta disagree with you, Boss. GGWO is much more the just CHS. The fact that good is done by GGWO is a testament to that fact. There are many, many good people that love God and hope to do God's will that are a part of GGWO. These good people should not be condemned with CHS. I would not like to render people powerless by stating that GGWO is beyond salvation. As for the leadership, it's apparent from the SC documents, that these leaders engage in fatal form of sentimentality. That they have sacrificed what they know to be the truth because of their feelings for CHS. CHS may not die for years. And the worst case scenario, which is that he become infirmed and a single person becomes his confidant who is responsible for conveying his wishes, is just as likely. As far as throwing out his son, despite the duplicity and hypocrisy involved, why is this important? This man is grown and perhaps it's time for him to get his own gig and to think his own thoughts. | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 273 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
Gotta disagree with you, Arguendo. There aren't any members at GGWO. The people that attend have absolutely no say in how the cult is run. I agree that there are a lot of great people at GGWO. They just don't seem to have any power. Any questions or concerns by the congregants mean questioning Carl. Any good (and I agree that some good has been done, but at a high price!) that was done, was done IN SPITE of Carl. If you get rid of Carl (and it appears that you would have to in order to effect any change at GGWO), you might still have the people. They could even call themselves GGWO, but it wouldn't really BE GGWO. That's what I mean by "Carl IS GGWO". | ||
| arguendo (arguendo) Intermediate Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 172 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
This is the thing, Boss. While the SC documents seem void of real controversy, one of the few real issues raised was the need for affiliates to not have to defer to Baltimore. This independence is first step to intellectual disaffiliation. And the difference between you and I, is when I say affiliates, I have actual people and churches in mind. This idea of wholesale CHS worship is a convenient assumption for dissidents, but I really think it's more rare than people think. I think people biting their tongues and sitting on their hands is far more common. I know of affiliates that brushed off some of CHS's more controversial theological positions (I don't want to say doctrinal, because that implies there's is Biblical support). However, I am not saying that GGWO/CHS doesn't espouse toxic theological positions, rather I am saying the toxicity is diffused the farther one goes from Baltimore, generally. While the total and utter destruction of the GGWO organization may seems to be the answer, it is an unlikely scenario. The destruction of the organization in Baltimore will not destroy many of the affiliates. They will remain and so will the people that are a part of the churches, members or not. It's a red herring to think that CHS is root of the problems of GGWO. It's too convenient. The root of the problems at GGWO is too many leaders that are too cowardly to voice their questions and demand answers. Leaders that have no tolerance or expectation of hard questions and intellectual debate. Leaders that have no faith that the Truth will prevail. If it weren't CHS, they would have likely found someone else to silently follow. I am unwilling to let leaders use CHS as a scapegoat. | ||
| yogi (yogi) Intermediate Member Username: yogi Post Number: 342 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.27.91.181 |
"we entered into this labor of love to honor him, his life, and that portion of the Body of Christ entrusted to his pastoral care." This quote, as endorsed by the signatures of many GG affiliate ministries, is the crux of the problem at GGWO...IDOLATRY of Carl H. Stevens, Jr.! Rather than prefering one of God's Ten Commandments, "Thou shalt NOT have any other God before Me." These "men of god" [little "g" for CHS] have apparently made their CHOICE; amuse and be sentimental by "honoring" an old man's "legacy" before his death! I believe a quote from Mr. Leonard's eloquent treatise on idolatry says it best..."Carl Stevens taught us that you could always spot idolatry because of the reactions provoked when the idol was attacked – fear, terror, hatred, and vicious anger. In this, at least, I believe he was correct." How true Carl, how true! We former TBS and those current members GGWO have witnessed, and have been, your "toadies," running helter skelter trying to sweep up your messes so that you, the false god and idol, would, and will not fall off of your pedastal! What a pity this "legacy" continues today as godly men have been so deceived that they are willing to compromise a true relationship with the Creator of Heaven and Earth so that you, a fallible man Carl, will be entertained before you go to your grave! Apparently, you are STILL unrepentant for your many abuses of your pastoral responsibilities! However, God WILL make you accountable Carl and your many wrongs will someday be exposed as you stand naked and ashamed before the throne of Almighty God. Your "groupies" and "yes" men won't be there nodding their empty heads in agreement so that you can justify your sinful actions. This Carl is very sad indeed! Yogi (Message edited by yogi on February 27, 2005) | ||
| john_krainis (john_krainis) Junior Member Username: john_krainis Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 207.5.226.251 |
A strong summary, Terra. My guess is that the elders and pastors are all over the map, conflicted, about this. It's no wonder they send mixed signals. "Evidence" that Sandy Cove marked a turning point: 1. The session notes seemed to be repudiation after repudiation of CHS' cultisms. From Joel: 'I watched the faces of people in my local church last sunday evening as we began to go over the sandy cove documents... we only got through the first page... i think people must have been asking themselves "how is it that so much of what we have been taught for the last 20 years here in France is now wrong?"' (emphasis mine). There is much in the notes that is radical and subversive (in a good way) and strikes blow after blow at the harmful and cultic distinctives. 2. When I asked Bruce Moon, "Do you express disapproval to Pastor Stevens about his unbiblical teachings (geographical will, his intervention at the bema, death and cancer to dissidents etc. etc. etc.)? Or the way his insistence on loyalty to himself tears marriages apart? Or his incorrigible bad-mouthing of family, friend, and foe?" Bruce's answer was, "Yes, I with many other pastors expressed our disapproval and disavowal of most of those (issues) you mentioned, at Sandy Cove...There was not time enough to deal with every issue, but I assure you, they will be dealt with." Bruce publicly disavowed these sins of CHS, stated that other pastors were like-minded, and that the job was not finished. "Evidence" that the status quo will continue: 1. The Declaration and Covenants affirm CHS and GG doctrines and contain none of the reforming aspects of Sandy Cove with the exception of marking and reconciling with Paul Stevens. Absurdly, the section on marking implied that everybody was guilty except CHS! 2. The condescending and contemptuous way this was presented to the people at Baltimore - all the superstitious fussing about the significance of the number of signers... 3. The "affiliation model" proposed by Pastor Ellis was as obsequious as it gets. 4. In spite of invitations from Bruce Moon and two FACTNetters, no GG pastor or elder has broken silence. Given the confused state of affairs, I think a good policy would be to continue to hold GG accountable, expose abusive practices and teachings, support and assist those that God is calling out of GG, AND to the extent that there is a reform movement within GG, to support that movement. | ||
| rjfernalld (rjfernalld) Advanced Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 932 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.203.154.97 |
Bravo John! You and Terra have hit the right points and it is spot on excellent analysis! Everyone should read this and Terra post. Excellent! | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 275 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
Arguendo, I agree that the elders and pastors of affiliated churches have enabled the toxic doctrines. If any of them had any sort of integrity at all, they would stand up to Carl. And I agree that putting all of this on Carl is a cop out. It is much like the defenses offered at the Nuremburg trials. HOWEVER, where did this toxic doctrine come from? The affiliates and elders didn't make it up! Carl did! Further, (and this is the part that makes my sizable head SMOKE), Carl insists that all of his crap is direct from God. I know we can go back to your assertion that the elders and affiliates could tell Carl to take a hike, but remember that many of these people were saved through TBS/GGWO. Those that had no experience in Christianity before Carl think that the screwed up doctrines (Carl's annointing, delegated authority, ad nauseum) are the way Christianity is supposed to be. I do believe in personal responsibility, but there's a little more to it when you are asking people to change their relationship with God. And from the GGWO people that post here and from the conversations I've had with people still in (admittedly unscientific and my Statistics professor would say that it was not a "significant" sampling, but it's all I have), they believe that Carl is about one half a degree away from God. The vibe I get from the Carl supporting posters give me that opinion. (He's a Godly Man, he's so annointed, etc.) Yes, people with guts and integrity would stand up to the bastard and those that don't are absolutely guilty. They need to be held accountable. Good luck finding any, though. Carl had the opportunity over 40 years ago to embrace sound doctrine. If he had, NONE of this would be going on today. If Carl repented and said and did the right thing, this whole mess would likely be over or at least the healing could begin. Carl is the LEADER. If you are going to lead, you must be accountable. It doesn't let the followers off the hook, but to me, they aren't as culpable as Carl. IMO. I haven't had much experience with the affiliated churches. The Death Star is bad enough. Love, Boss Martian | ||
| arguendo (arguendo) Intermediate Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 174 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
If CHS dies tomorrow, what happens? | ||
| dave_drago (dave_drago) Intermediate Member Username: dave_drago Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.66.56.206 |
ARGUENDO, HANDS DOWN THE BEST QUESTION ON HERE IN AWHILE! (NOT TO SAY I DO NOT ENJOY THE OTHER QUESTIONS!!!) ANSWER: THE SUN STILL RISES AND CHS WILL FACE HIS MAKER ALONE...THE ONLY PERSON HE WILL PRESENT IS HIMSELF! I AM REMINDED HOW HE USED TO SCOLD US AND SAY, 'SEE YOU AT THE BEMA SEAT!' SO BE IT... AND HE WILL GIVE AN ACCOUNT OF HIS WORDS AND DEEDS. ALONE! AND HE WILL GIVE AN ACCOUNT OF HIS WORDS AND DEEDS.ALONE! AND HE WILL GIVE AN ACCOUNT OF HIS WORDS AND DEEDS.ALONE! James 3.1-2: Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. THOUGHT: THE SAME MUST BE SAID OF US, AND WE WILL GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR OUR WORDS AND DEEDS. ALONE! For Him Alone, Dave P.S. I want to live my life like Roy Rogers used to say, "Live your life in such a way that you can sell your parrot to the town gossip!" | ||
| ralphwells (ralphwells) Intermediate Member Username: ralphwells Post Number: 459 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 162.129.227.254 |
There would be two actions, one instant and one slow. The ministry would instantly get smaller. The ones who remainded would probably change ever so slowly. | ||
| jeannie (jeannie) Intermediate Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 451 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
If Carl dies tomorrow the current leaders will protect "his legacy." The affiliates will distance themselves further from Baltimore. The affiliate leaders that desire a move towards accountability will have the freedom to align themselves with a more Orthodox Christianity. Schaller with the help of Marr will run a smaller but more missionary based group. The bible college will move towards a missionary mill, spitting out pumped up boys and girls and sending them unprepared and unfunded to all parts of the earth. The children will be zealous and sincere in their love for the lost but down the road the lack of organization and proper preparation they will become disillusioned for the most part. And history will repeat itself, to some degree again. My question is "what will happen if Carl does not die for a long time?" It is obvious that no matter the scenario these leaders will allow Carl to rule. Drugged, with further decline of dementia, what could homebase evolve into? With more people leaving everyday and fresh recruits indoctrinated in this new atmosphere, what could happen? A declining despot leading a fervent faithful could lead to just about anything. I really believe that the existence of FN and our combined voices hold back a deteriorating situation. We really don't know how much we effect the outcome of TBS/GGWO. I believe we owe it to those that remain and the new recruits to keep talking, because Carl H. Stevens may not die anytime soon.... | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 276 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
Arguendo, If Carl dies tomorrow, then he will become even more of a minor deity than he is today. The GGWO spin machine will rev up to preserve Carl's "legacy" in whatever manner they see fit. There has been some speculation that if Carl dies, it will be impossible to keep GGWO together, but being the cynical (yet realistic, I think) nut job that I am, I think it will enable the GGWO machine to continue to grind people up. Someone will take power after some behind the scenes political wrangling. The "body" will be told that God and Carl wanted Pastor (insert name here) to take over and continue the legacy. If Carl dies tomorrow, it will not be a good thing. To me, there are only two closely related ways that this mess will ever be straightened out. 1. One morning, Carl looks in the mirror and has an epiphany. He suddenly realizes all the evil crap he's been doing for all these years, is filled with guilt and remorse, calls a GGWO "news conference" and with a true spirit of humbleness (not the bullshit he tries to pass off as humbleness today) admits to each and every twisted doctrine, states that he has used his position to feed his ego, and has been just plain WRONG. He would then ask for forgiveness and state that he was stepping down. He would then say that there are many healthy churches out there. Finally, he would say that he would do his human best to make things right for those he has harmed. He would tell his followers that the whole marking process was totally wrong and for the congregants to seek out those that are marked and ask for forgiveness. All GGWO assets would be sold to compensate those that have been financially harmed. Carl would then head directly to medical care to treat his drug addiction. Of course, the chance of this happening are about the same as me winning a gold medal for women's gymnastics at the next Summer Olympics. It ain't gonna happen. 2. All of the enablers (branch pastors and elders) engage in a "revolt" and state precisely that Carl is a false idol, his doctrines are not only wrong but have caused harm to hundreds. They would publically and clearly state each doctrine and why it is wrong. In a perfect world, they would do it at the next Convention. Doubt this is going to happen, either. Nothing else is going to work. I am not saying that the Klan is the equivalent of GGWO. But do you believe the Klan can be "rehabilitated" and still be the Klan? As terrible as that organization is, they have done some good things, such as helping the (white) poor. I think that anyone in an organization such as the Klan has the capacity to change for the better. I don't think that an organization like the KKK can be rehabilitated and still maintain their "legacy". It won't happen with GGWO, either. Regardless of the integrity of the branch pastors and elders, their power comes from Carl. I don't believe any of GGWO's issues can be resolved without exposing Carl for what he is. The congregants, for the most part, won't listen to outsiders or dissidents. It has to come as a revolution. The Wizard of Oz has been used as metaphor for Carl's power. The curtain has to be pulled back for all of GGWO to see. If Carl dies before that happens, it will likely be business as usual. What do you think should happen? What do you think will happen if Carl dies tomorrow? Boss Martian | ||
| ralphwells (ralphwells) Intermediate Member Username: ralphwells Post Number: 464 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 162.129.227.254 |
Boss - I think you have "nailed" all of the salient points of the issue. I really appreciate your insightful postings. Semper Fi Ralph 1Cor 15:10 | ||
| minutus (minutus) Intermediate Member Username: minutus Post Number: 362 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.156.7.250 |
From Joel & John: "'I watched the faces of people in my local church last sunday evening as we began to go over the sandy cove documents... we only got through the first page... i think people must have been asking themselves "how is it that so much of what we have been taught for the last 20 years here in France is now wrong?"' (emphasis mine). There is much in the notes that is radical and subversive (in a good way) and strikes blow after blow at the harmful and cultic distinctives." I am reminded of the story of Viktor Belenko, the Soviet fighter pilot who escaped to the West by stealing the MiG-25, their most advanced fighter at the time, and flying it to Japan. He was an intelligent and highly-trained man, trusted by the authorities. He became disillusioned with the incompetent and corrupt Soviet system over a period of years because what he was told didn't square with reality. He finally decided that while he didn't know what life was like in the West, it could not be any worse than where he was. Most of the book about Belenko ("MiG Pilot, by John Barron) deals with his adjustments to life in the U.S. after his defection. There are many amusing moments and some heartbreaking ones. At one point the strangeness of freedom becomes too much for him, so he begins to drive across the U.S. to reach the Soviet embassy in Washington and turn himself in. He just wants to go home. I won't spoil the plot by telling what happens  . A lot of GGWO branch pastors are at a similar place. While they might not be saying anything here, reality keeps slapping them in the face and it hurts. Yes, the Soviet Union and GGWO did improve the lives of some people, but at what cost? The ministry is corrupt and incompetent, squandering precious lives bought with the blood of Christ. Vile slander emanates regularly from men in authority as they manuver for power in the crumbling system. The word of God is routinely violated to protect the "special class." You (and the souls for whom you are responsible) cannot reach freedom without the "messiness" of telling the truth. Your leader is an out-of-control sociopath driven by his own deep inadequacies to blaspheme the character of God and His word. Whom do you seek to honor most? Having begun the journey to truth, you must not turn back to Moscow (and I don't mean Idaho.) Dave Carson (Message edited by minutus on February 25, 2005) | ||
| ralphwells (ralphwells) Intermediate Member Username: ralphwells Post Number: 467 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 162.129.227.254 |
Dave - that deserves a WOW! In fact, a backward WOW too! Thanks for the insight brother. And for the book, was it published awhile back or recently? Blessings, Ralph 1Cor 15:10 | ||
| minutus (minutus) Intermediate Member Username: minutus Post Number: 363 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 207.156.7.250 |
Published in 1983, you can get it at Amazon.com: Mig Pilot: The Final Escape of Lt. Belenko Here's one review: "I was so blown away by this book I had to meet Viktor in person and now count him as a personal friend. The book is factual in every respect and is difficult to put down once started. John Barron is an excellent author and did a first class job of writing Viktor's story. In addition to an exciting escape story it reveals why the Soviet Union had to collapse of its own ineptitude, deceit, and corruption. It details humorous incidents such as army pilots' mess-hall riots due to bad food. Mig Pilot is also a biography of an exceptional man whose intelligence saw through a lifetime of brainwashing. The story is humorous in places and engrossing from beginning to end. It starts right out with Viktor's desperate and harrowing escape flight to freedom in his top-secret Mig-25 Foxbat, then in subsequent chapters details the life events that led to his courageous decision to "go for broke" and make his live-or-die dash to freedom. It illustrates how America probably could have given the Soviets all of its top secrets and they would have found a way to screw up making use of them.Viktor is not only a first class pilot, he is also a true hero. Don't lend this book to anyone and expect to get it back." The more I think of it the more this DOES remind me of GGWO. | ||
| jeannie (jeannie) Intermediate Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 452 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
I also agree Dave, to the parallel of TBS/GGWO and communism. I wrote this post last April with similar thought: GG church government allows no power or voice from the pews. This was the same behind the Iron Curtain, I believe that Lech Walenzsa as a Polish labor leader is ultimately responsible for the wall coming down in Russia. A small movement in Poland took down Communism all over Eastern Europe and the Russian bear. It was a long and complex, removing brick by brick battle but eventually it all came down. We are in a similar battle, it may take many factors and many years and this forum is just one brick being removed from the wall. God does not want his sheep harmed by those that represent Him. It is His work and His battle. It is up to each individual to be brave.. like Lech... and trust God for the rest, no matter how it appears by sight. I had the opportunity to live in Moscow after the wall came down in 1993. The effects of communism on the faces of the people and the landscape can not be described. How could such a beaten-down people have overthrown such a powerful government? the answer is they couldn't, just like GG members, it took the work and courage of many outside and within to bring that change. It will be the same for GGWO. | ||
| ralphwells (ralphwells) Intermediate Member Username: ralphwells Post Number: 471 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 162.129.227.254 |
Dave - thank you kind Sir. Blessings. Jeannie - thank you for reposting that, missed it before. I do not think I am getting much done on this Baltimore snow day.  Blessings, Ralph 1COr 15:10 | ||
| maria_t (maria_t) Intermediate Member Username: maria_t Post Number: 426 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.16.31.164 |
Arguendo I never thought I'd post agreeing to what you wrote after I took your comments too personal last month. You have an objective view and I appreciate it greatly. I also apologize for snapping at you in the past. You have as much right to post here as I do, whether we agree with what the other one says or not. Maria | ||
| maria_t (maria_t) Intermediate Member Username: maria_t Post Number: 427 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.16.31.164 |
I have a question. I am cutting and pasting quotes from the GG Tacoma website. The first being the document written by Pastor Ellis. (Caps and bold highlighting are of my doing solely for emphasis): "It is the said purpose of this document to offer an ALTERNATIVE plan on how to preserve the legacy of Dr. Carl Stevens and maintain the vision, which God gave him."} This "preserving CHS's legacy" was a proposal submitted by Pastor Ellis as an alternative to what other plan???? Obviously somewhere in those documents there is another "plan" in motion. I don't see anyplace so far where it states that this was the one that was picked as the final offical document. Has anyone else come up with this as well? I want to know what the other option was in lieu of preserving CHS's legacy. Its got to be in those documents somewhere! Maria | ||
| arguendo (arguendo) Intermediate Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
Maria, what you write here is between you and God. No need to apologize to me. | ||
| maria_t (maria_t) Intermediate Member Username: maria_t Post Number: 434 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 141.157.81.162 |
Why is it when I post questions on here they are now ignored? I asked about that alternative plan -- nobody says a word? Is it because you're afraid there could be one or is it because you'd rather talk about Carl dying soon or not. This has a lot to do with it, which is why I asked that question!!! Well??????? | ||
| rjfernalld (rjfernalld) Advanced Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 953 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.203.154.97 |
Well, Maria, frankly I went back and reread the documents and I have the same question you have. It may be in the documents somewhere but I can't find it. | ||
| maria_t (maria_t) Intermediate Member Username: maria_t Post Number: 436 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 141.157.81.162 |
Me neither RJ and it bugs me!! Was there something left out of them? The only alternative to preserving his legacy would be to remove him from the pulpit which is really long overdue. It just doesn't smell right to me thats all. Maria | ||
| rjfernalld (rjfernalld) Advanced Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 962 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.203.154.97 |
I agree...something is missing or wasleft deliberatly "unsaid". | ||
| maria_t (maria_t) Intermediate Member Username: maria_t Post Number: 438 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 141.157.81.162 |
RJ there are those either lurking or posting anon on here that were behind closed doors at that meeting. They know what the "original" thing was that Pastor Ellis suggested an alternative option to. Odd isn't it that nobody speaks up. Maria | ||
| dianne_ackley (dianne_ackley) Junior Member Username: dianne_ackley Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
This post is for all of the posts that are impatiently waiting for the death of CHS. How nice that a group of ( christians?) sit around their keyboard discussing what if CHS dies today? tommorrow? What if he lives for a long time,OH NO!I can see the Lord now smiling down at all of you with such proud look on it face. I doubt it. The next time you repeat THE Lords Prayer please think of these words, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven......and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us, lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil........ Everyone in life must live his life as he sees fit, if he sins,as we all do, and asks forgiveness,and then repeats it, HE will answer when his life is over. I believe that Carl has done things to hurt you all, but look down deep into your souls ,and see that you are also hurting yourselves.Being vindictive,having hatred, wishing someone was dead, I don't believe this is the heart of a Christian, and I dont think it will please the Lord. I believe some of this is true FN, and some is merely added for interesting reading.As one person said to me," when I get what I'M looking for CHS's world will never be the same. That is fine. Everyone should pay for what they have done,good and bad.All of Carl's leadership couldn't have been so bad , if it was why were some of you there so long??? Don't say because I had friends there.We are all responsible for what we do,inc. CHS.. but if you went to a party with friends and someone pulled out drugs, would you stay because you have friends there?? My point is that I see alot of people with heavy hearts on here,people with hatred of a brother,trying to figure out what they can do ,when he dies. I was pleased to see that one of you put him in Heaven. Heaven isn't a juror's box where we all get to sit and decide who stays and who goes south,Jesus gets to do thst, so live as the Bible says,( let he who is without sin cast the first stone.) This is supposed to be a place for people to post THEIR own opinion's, some don't dare because of the wrath of some of the others. I have read and had many nice posts from many of you,I believe there is merit,Carl is my uncle, and if he wasn't I would not like anyone discussing when they might die either. If Jesus was sitting around a table with you all,which he does, would you ask" what if he dies today,then what?What if he lives for years?Carl has thru Christ, saved a lot of lives,it hasn't been all bad, that I KNOW. Carl's neice, In Christ, Dianne Ackley | ||
| kathleen (kathleen) Member Username: kathleen Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
dianne: "If Jesus was sitting around a table with you all" What a thought! Dancing on the Clouds  | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 282 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
I don't care if he lives or dies. Everybody has to go sometime. What I do care about is Carl H. Stevens, the FALSE IDOL stopping the current abuse and addressing the past abuse. Like the man he PRETENDS to be. So far, the only way Carl will stop his crap is to die. He is so swelled with pride, he can't even consider whether or not he has done anything wrong. That is below him. Maybe if he would address the issues instead of hiding behind the elders and his "annointing", then people wouldn't speculate about him living or dying. Look on the other threads, Dianne. Carl has now been implicated WITH NAMES with "covering" child abuse. Is bringing that horrible issue up being un-Christian? If this can be proven in a court of law, I wonder how many will still want to preserve Carl's "legacy"? | ||
| jeannie (jeannie) Intermediate Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 474 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
Talking about your uncle dying was something that went on everyday Dianne behind the closed doors of the inner circle. Some of those most close to him wished he would die. When his son Paul tried to intervene to save his father's life. These very same people joined in the destruction of Paul. Some of us paid a huge price demanding your uncle get help for his addiction. Some of us lost everything because we told the truth. Your uncle is slowly killing himself, his enablers know it and have done nothing. Anyone that tried is gone. They will protect the ministry over the man. Tell me where Christ's love is in that scenario? I am not speaking from hearsay, I lived it, I was there and my whole family has been slandered and marked because we refused to just stand by and watch your uncle die. | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 284 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
For someone who supposedly has a front-row reserved luxury box seat in Heaven like Carl Stevens, there seems to be an awful lot of worrying over his "legacy" in this world. If he's so damn annointed, his "legacy" would take care of itself and wouldn't need an army of spin doctors warning of the dire consequences of leaving or speaking against Carl The Most High (and I ain't referring to his love of the Oxycontin.) | ||
| veritas (veritas) Member Username: veritas Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 70.16.6.57 |
How often it is that before we can clearly recognize something in its full value and scope and spell its name, we know it by what it is not. So with the Church and, in particular Carl Stevens and Greater Grace. And here it is generally with organized religion, so distasteful in many ways to the modern mind, so often criticized and condemned, comes in—or ought to come in—to wake up and feed our poor dim sense of the beauty and vitality of God. For the real business of the Church is not just the outward vestments; its business is to bind us together—the learned and the simple, the strong and the weak—in a great social act of love and worship; to provide a home for the nurturing of the spiritual life. For we cannot get along alone in religion or anything else. Our spiritual life must be a social life too. We can only manage a bit of it—it is far too big and various in its richness for any one soul. We must be content to pool our contributions, to learn from the past and learn from each other; humbly receive and generously give. The wonder and love of the Trinity are caught, not taught. To catch them we must be in an atmosphere where we are sure to find the seeds of them both. A living Church ought to be full of the seeds of this wonder and love. The failure of the churches that we always hear about comes mainly from forgetting these things. On the one hand, we forget what the real function of a church is and expect the wrong things from it. On the other hand, The Church, in its anxiety for custom and to meet, as it says, the needs of the present day, has often tried to give us the wrong things. It has forgotten its true business—the reproduction of holiness. Holiness; not just consolation, moral uplift, or social reform. Its real job is to weave men’s love and wonder into worship. It is not a general store; its real stock-in-trade is the pearl of great price. All its symbols and sacraments, all those services which ought to be great corporate works of art—all these are meant to train the souls of men to look inward and thus heavenward. The Church is full of good practical advice, most of which was never heard at the Sermon on the Mount. The Holy Jesus sought to disclose the real nature of our link to God the Father. And the business of religion is with that relation and with those hidden depths. Its aim is to give men eternity and urge them to give themselves to eternity that so, by turning inward to his center in Him, they may learn how to make the practical surface of life significant and real. There is no other way of doing it. That is what those “slow, uncultured, narrow peasants” (the early Church) knew, and what the quick, charming, cultured, wide-minded students have missed. Part of the legacy of Carl Stevens is that he stepped in between the Shepherd and the sheep and sought to link them to himself and his work. The real nature of purity and holiness is and has been conspicuously absent for so long a time that what has stood in its place is thought by many to be the thing itself. Covenant, indeed. Better to call it what it was...the “Sandy Cove Carlevant”. Veritas | ||
| whycare (whycare) New member Username: whycare Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 207.239.98.2 |
That's it, exactly, Veritas! Couldn't have said it better. Hypocrisy at its worst. | ||
| jeannie (jeannie) Intermediate Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 476 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
"The wonder and love of the Trinity are caught, not taught." Very good words to ponder. | ||
| jeannie (jeannie) Intermediate Member Username: jeannie Post Number: 477 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
Doris sent me this poem. She wrote after reading Veritas's post... which sparked us all. (she is allowing me to post it here) Glimpses of God Through shadows of truth Hands reaching out to Him But falling short Chasing and running Always going and doing Seeking that rest from God But never owning it Performance and works Elevation and status Meekness and humility Have totally vanished The legacy of one man Takes preeminence over true honor A ministry founded on deceit Will end in dishonor God is calling a remnant To speak in His name To carry the torch and extinguish the shame The everlasting arms reaching out Taking hold of those alone An ear bent low Stirring from His throne The man will be removed The shadows gone Our hands will reach out To grasp the Living God | ||
| rjfernalld (rjfernalld) Senior Member Username: rjfernalld Post Number: 1005 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.203.154.97 |
veritas....thank you | ||
| sidethorn (sidethorn) New member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
BUMP. | ||
| ggf4christ (ggf4christ) New member Username: ggf4christ Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 203.76.177.29 |
Great leaders make mistakes. We cant expect our leaders to be infallible. It's all about Jesus and some of you sayin the cult of ggwo Wow!! what were you'll thinking ? Im very much convinced when Christ asked the disciples come follow me ... im sure their families had a hard time. So instead of sitting here and praying for Pastor's death ask God to give you a heart of forgiveness, coz satan comes to seek kill and destroy. May the Lord richly bless you in all things. | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 349 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
ggf4christ, Sure, EVERYONE makes mistakes. Carl Stevens didn't make a mistake. A mistake is an isolated incident. 40-plus years of abuse, encouraging idol worship, twisting of Scripture to suit his own purposes, marking anyone who disagrees with him, etc., etc., etc., isn't a MISTAKE. It's called a PLAN. | ||
| ralphwells (ralphwells) Advanced Member Username: ralphwells Post Number: 777 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 162.129.192.133 |
ggf4Christ - read more carefully, there are only a couple of isolated voices speaking what you said. Most of us simply want repentance and godly change. I happen to love P. Stevens, but I HATE his sin!! If you think that we are only talking about families not understanding when someone follows Jesus you are grossly mistaken! We are talking about marking godly people because they disagreed (read preferred the Word) with wrong teaching and/or selective application. We are talking about telling people not to have anything to do with their family because "They are not of the body and are being used by the devil." We are talking about marking and maligning. CHS said "Do not malign." Yet he constantly has done it. Do not blame it on being old and incompetent now, blame it a "line upon line" lifetime of sinning against God's individuals. If we are wrong to point out UNREPENTED sin here, then how wrong is CHS for uncovering Paul's sin which he himself helped to cover. My God, we are not even talking about things that have been put under the blood, we are talking about things that have not even been admitted to, no make that, have been denied! CHS has not only exposed other people's sins to control those around him, he has "manufatured" things when the people were living too well for him to find anything against them. PLEASE, go to your prayer closet and ask the Holy Spirit to remind you of anything that you have wrongly suppressed because you thought it was "off to think about it." You will find that you have been given a doctrine that cannot stand in the light of scripture. Blessings, Ralph 1Cor 15:10 | ||
| joni_fortin (joni_fortin) Junior Member Username: joni_fortin Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.23.100.42 |
ggf4christ, Perhaps we should discuss and give definition to exactly what a "Great Leader" is and isn't? | ||
| maria_t (maria_t) Advanced Member Username: maria_t Post Number: 611 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 141.157.81.175 |
gg4christ great leaders may be fallible, but CHS thinks he is not. great leaders? you can't even count CHS in that category to begin with. great leaders don't abuse their followers. great leaders don't live double lives. great leaders don't manipulate people financially. great leaders don't stand back and do nothing when children are abused right under their noses. great leaders don't twist scripture to their advantage. great leaders don't play favorites with those who have financial means, and they don't sucker those others into selling "all" (homes, jewelry, etc) to support them. you can continue to defend your great leader all you want on here but NOBODY is listening and NOBODY will listen. It is YOU that needs to really step back and take a look around you and see things for what they really are, not your view from rose glasses. | ||
| espana (espana) New member Username: espana Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 68.2.54.112 |
Hi, this is to answer Dianes post. I understand her concern with everyones discussion. However, I have been thorough the whole ggwo system, from seminary, staff, faculity and years on the field, in another country. I feel that the teachers that I had in Lenox were the best. My time in training was top. I know because I used it on the field. I am still using it. Where I get concerned is where the ministry has gone in the last 15 years, For that reason I left many years ago. I was getting totally stressed out at the whole obsession with CHS> There is a whole world out there and guess what they cannot all be wrong. I do feel concern for those boys and girls going to Bible School. They will graduate with a "degree" that wont so anything if they choose to take it anywhere. I have a "paper" degree that I cannot use for anything. It is so hard to work, minister and hold down a full time job. Im just concerned that this cycle may not stop anytime soon. I have a daughter going on to college age and now I can understand my parents point of view. I would not trade my years in bible college but I would not recommed it for this day and age. The mission field is now sending missionarys to our own country. I am afraid that they will be misled | ||
| jayso (jayso) New member Username: jayso Post Number: 11 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.205.150.205 |
Ralph, I agree 100%. We are told by Jesus not to judge, but to be "fruit inspectors". CHS' legacy is that of a human being riddled with flaws, saved by grace. IMO, CHS has a tremendous grasp of the Scriptures, a terrific style of delivery (homiletics), and a persuasive personality which inspired lots of us to "get off our fannies and serve the Lord". Perhaps this is the "good side" of his legacy! On the negative side, he is a horrible LEADER because of his belief that every sermon he preaches is "annointed" (ex Cathedra?)and his use of Holy Scripture to support his "lording over the flock". St. Paul said "Follow me as I follow Christ" and Jesus said "As many who are led by the SPIRIT OF GOD, they are the sons of God". NO mere man should ever consider himself a "Leader" of another person's life in God. The marking, gossiping, encouragement of alienation of Christian family members and his words of condemnation for his critics may far overshadow any good part of his "legacy". I used to listen to Herbert W. Armstrong on "The World Tomorrow" (WCG). One time I actually heard him say "I am the ONLY one who understands the Bible.". His group has since come in line with mainstream evangelical doctrine and his legacy is a poor one, despite his ability to preach and teach in a persuasive manner and titilating language. | ||
| daved (daved) Intermediate Member Username: daved Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.154.208.6 |
Pastor Carl Stevens once taught how it was safe to follow a man, as long as that man was following Jesus "perfectly". And of course the listener was expected to understand that the speaker, Pastor Carl Stevens, was a man that was following Jesus "perfectly". I believe that that message was given while Pastor Carl Stevens was in Lenox. daved (Message edited by daved on April 08, 2005) | ||
| sister_mary (sister_mary) New member Username: sister_mary Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 80.223.154.117 |
Here is a prophecy God has given to an old lady (69 years old), who has the gift of exposing false spirits: "Though CHS has sinned a lot, he may rise again, if he confesses his sins before the congregation and repents!" Although your sin is bloody red they may become white like wool! This happenes by repenting and humbling yourself before Jesus and the elders and the congregation. Jesus is coming soon! Who is ready for His coming? Are your robes white? Are you anointed with his Holy Spirit, covered with his blood and wearing his armour in this wicked time? Stop watching CHS or other human people, but start studying the Bible, start winning souls to Jesus, start to WALK IN THE LIGHT! There is a song "Walk in the light" sing it! Be the Children of Light not children of darkness or lies. God bless you all! | ||
| louise_connolly (louise_connolly) Intermediate Member Username: louise_connolly Post Number: 219 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.61.151.107 |
Carleluia! Sister | ||
| aurora (aurora) Member Username: aurora Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.30.49.45 |
I remember very well being told on several occasions that affiliate pastors were accountable to Stevens. It was often asked: so who is Stevens accountable to? God, of course, was always the response. It didn't make sense to me so I figured he MUST have mentors (maybe Jack Hyles or someone from where he got his doctorate?)...silly me. | ||
| sidethorn (sidethorn) Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 66 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Looking at the actions and the attitude of Carl Stevens, he's only accountable to himself!! | ||
| whitehorses (whitehorses) Intermediate Member Username: whitehorses Post Number: 174 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.72 |
oh puhleez Sistah! i feel like i should put my whihte shoes and my "sunday gwan ta meetin clothes" on and fix me a flower in my bonnet and git me to yonder church pew..(do i hear an AMEN!) first of all jesus has been coming back soon for the last 2000 plus years. second of all your "prophesy" is not a prophesy at all.. it is an "IF you do this THEN this will happen" biblical concept. a true prophesy would be to say CHS IS going to do it.... and it WILL come to pass. al you are doing is preaching an "easy enough concept" for all of us to read in our own bibles that if we repent and confess then the bloodies turn to white woolies... you didnt make that up.. and it goes for all of us not just for CHS. we are also aware what he needs to do and how he needs to do it... again no great revelation, its plastered all over these threads. and finally i dont know why you are questioning the readiness, the whiteness thw anointeness of anyone on this site. whose to say we are not studying our bibles winning souls walking in the light? this whole forum is based on the bible speaks greater grace an the doings of CHS And his cronies, hopefully to be able to bring to light issues for people who are still tethered there have some light shed on issues... if anyone is watching CHS as you say it is those who are hopelesslly still involved. so for you to say ou have some prophesy is just a bunch of malarky (love thast word havent used it in donkeys years). you havent told us a damned thing. thats my word and i am sticking to it... sorry thingss like this make my skin crawl. | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 357 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
RIGHT ON, SIDETHORN! | ||
| boss_martian (boss_martian) Intermediate Member Username: boss_martian Post Number: 358 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.143.68.103 |
Please forgive me, I need more coffee. I meant RIGHT ON, WHITEHORSES! | ||
| ralphwells (ralphwells) Advanced Member Username: ralphwells Post Number: 806 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 162.129.192.133 |
Dedicated to Boss: "Well pour me another cup a' coffee For it's the best in the land. Put another nickle in the juke box, Play I'm a truck drivin' man." Note to all, for Boss substitute "plane fixin' man" for "truck drivin' man."   | ||
| herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness) Intermediate Member Username: herroyalhighness Post Number: 399 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.97.250.114 |
White - You get the "Amen" here. | ||
| jayso (jayso) New member Username: jayso Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 69.205.150.205 |
whitehorse... I agree with you and my skin crawls also when I hear stuff like "God gave me a prophesy, or revelation".... When someone says "Thus saith the Lord" and is not quoting from scripture, what they are REALLY saying is "I'm right and you wouldn't dare question what I say because you will be arguing with GOD" - YEAH RIGHT! Anyone have some kool-aid to pass around? I'm THIRSTY! | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
I am new to the GGWO site here on Factnet. I was a "follower" of CHS and GG for almost 27 years and the last several months have been quite an eye opener for me, and others in the Maine churches. I wish that I had listened to my "gut instincts" years ago about this cult but I, like others, would always think that it was ME that had a problem. How dare I question "Gods Man". I can tell you that I have no respect whatsoever for Scott Robinson and many others. I have been reading all these posts practically nonstop for weeks and it is mind blowing the level of deceit and manipulation that we were under for years. I distinctly remember a funeral I attended back in the 70's or early 80's and I knew then that something was wrong with CHS, but of course I ignored my inner warning! A lady by the name of Diane Garbrecht, who was in the Scarborough Maine ministry, lost her young husband to a heart attack. He was a lawyer by profession. CHS did the funeral. It started out ok, but then he launched into this tirade against lawyers (and of course there were many of Don Garbrechts colleagues in the pews) and people were so shocked you could have heard a pin drop. I remember thinking that he was totally inapropriate and I was embarrased for the Garbrecht family and for the whole church. I cannot go on right now. I am still absorbing everything. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1185 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
I think you'll find that Scott Robinson himself is on the outside these days--he left over a year ago himself. CHS was always brave when he was 'on stage' and a coward face to face when confronted. Now he has no stage and is only allowed the odd phone call on the 'Grace Hour' every once in a great while. Best wishes to you redeemedinmaine. Jim Faucett somebonus@yahoo.com | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
thank you Jim Faucett. I have a friend in So. Berwick, who came here from Baltimore about two years ago because she felt led. All of this has put her into a tailspin and she is taking anti depressants now. Just about had a breakdown after finding out everything. I can say one thing, I am glad that even though I attended GG for all those years, I NEVER really was 'sold out' like so many people. There are many people who have been really devastated by the whole thing including women in Bob White's church in Gorham Maine who followed CHS for years as if he was God. Frank and Eileen Morehead have stopped going to Pastor White's church and stay home now and watch GGWO Sunday Services on the computer! People have tried to tell them to STAY AWAY from Baltimore, but they wont listen. They refuse to believe anything and its tearing the whole family apart. What a mess. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1186 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
White himself would have asked "how high" when CHS said "jump" in the old days. I am glad he's out. I remember the Mooreheads. I am sure the guys in Baltimore are glad to take whatever tithes these poor folk send on to them to carry out Carl's 'legacy'. | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Bob White has really seen things for what they are. I have no idea though how much he still emulates CHS. His beef is with Tom Schaller and the whole Sandy Cove thing. I know Wayne Hogarth's sister, and she says that Wayne is still in recovery over everthing that has happened. He was really thrown for a loop over all this. CHS was a man that these pastors, at least alot of them, considered their spiritual father and he could do no wrong. Its been very difficult for alot of them. What is Pastor Scibelli's background? How long has he been with the ministry? | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1188 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 209.184.56.178 |
Scibelli is from the Springfield MA 'ministry'. He and his brother Ted were integral core group members when I was there in 1980, so I assume they were there at the beginning which would have been '78 or '79. Steve Stratos's story is elsewhere on these threads--there was a debacle of great proportion and later on Hogarth founded the church in Westfield. I have heard he's doing ok. But recovery always takes time. | ||
| j_graz Member Username: j_graz Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 71.255.36.176 |
When you hear about a woman in Maine experiencing such emotional distress...it reminds me that for every one willing to come here, post and interact, there are likely hundreds simply watching and wondering what happened. Others are still not sure. Maybe they come here to see if there is any real wisdom or insight. Or maybe, to settle that this forum really is evil and the CHS and Co. are right after all. As for the pastors who left, until the responsibility for what happened is placed squarely on the shoulder of Carl Stevens, they will never be able to reconcile what happened with the truth. Tom Schaller and the last two or three years is most definately NOT the problem - but a symptom. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3453 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.105.168 |
Redeemedinmaine, if you get a chance,could you tell Bob White that I said hello and have him say hello to "Darril" for me too,LOL. He knows me from Framingham as the sound man Dave. God bless and Merry Christmas, Dave } | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 980 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Schaller is a continuation of the legacy and twisted teachings of Carl Stevens. Otherwise, why would there be so many taped Carl Stevens teachings on the Grace Hour with Schaller, Love and others agreeing with those teachings in their commentaries??? Check out those Grace Hour threads that Hodeuon put up on www.discussggwo.org and you'll see what I mean. Carl Stevens trusted Schaller to take the pulpit to continue his teachings and legacy. No wonder Carl and his insiders overthrew the Stenger vote and put Schaller in there instead. Its pretty much the same old cult with a new wolf in sheep's clothing at the pulpit!!! | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3454 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.105.16 |
I would have to agree with your assessment of the present situation today at GGWO. Stenger would have probably made the correct adjustments and openly corrected the error by seeking council from those who have gone before. He probably would have consulted outside help but that is a moot point now and we don't know for certain anyway at this point. I can see how Schaller's usurping the "coveted position" would be evidence enough to come to the conclusion you have stated but the "so much more" that is openly paraded about is just so in your face it's lame. How much more flagrant can Schaller be than he is at present with the "we don't accept that we have done wrong" approach? Why not just be honest since so many already know the truth any way? Then again, any one who knows anything ,knows that Schaller is not going to change a thing. Good grief Charlie Brown! } | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Dave Munson: If I see Bob White I will send your greetings! I probably will not see much of him, because I go to a baptist church now in the Portland area. But his wife Diane is a good friend of mine! We've known each other since First Grade! It was Diane and Bob that introduced me to TBS way back in 1975. I remember Darrell too... he was in our class at WHS! I've actually known Bob White since high school. He was co-captain of the football team and he and Diane started going out Sophmore year. We go wayyy back.... | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 981 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Schaller has long been seen as a "true believer" in the ways of Carl Stevens. Right down to the us versus them and the we're always right and you're always wrong mentality. No wonder Carl wanted him to take the pulpit. These guys have such a superiority complex that they refuse to admit wrong even in the face of overwhelming evidence. They would rather pass us off as negative troublemakers who refused to submit to their "categorial doctrine" and assume we're not properly submitted to Christ. Carl has constantly set himself as the measuring standard for a person's spirituality and Schaller's doing it too. These guys judge us while they refuse to be honest and up front with us. They would rather see us all as living in darkness simply for disagreeing with them. They wouldn't consider for a microsecond that we might be right and they're the ones in darkness. The nonsense goes on. You're sure right about Schaller, he's not willingly going to change anything!!!! He'd rather continue the kingdom of Carl and enjoy lots of wealth and power from it!! | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1194 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
redeemedinmaine any news of the Dubay clan? | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
The Dubays? Ron & Julie Dubay go to a Baptist church now. They have for a couple of years. Very active there. Debbie Dubay is now Debbie Powers. (was married to John Titus) Has been married to Mike Powers (originally from Vermont I think) for at least ten years now. Has 3 kids! The parents, Ron & Pat Dubay, are still with Pastor White's church. They are the only ones I know. Cindy Dubay remarried in Baltimore right? Is she still down there? | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Alot has happened here in Maine. I attended the Goodwins Mills church for awhile about two years ago with Pastor George Durkee. That was quite a ride, I will tell you. He started out ok, and then turned into this weirdo and I do mean Weirdo. The church has since been sold and I and others have wondered WHO got the money? I bet it went to Baltimore. At least most of it. Wally and Cathy White are up here and they are trying to start a church but there is only a handful of people from the now defunct Lyman Maine church. I cannot even begin to tell what went on there for almost two years. Wally and Cathy are having a hard time with people who don't want to be connected to Baltimore anymore. We have tried to talk to them about everything, but they have total blinders on. They said that the stuff on the internet is "all bunk". There are people who just arent ready I think, to hear the truth. They are such a nice couple but its frustrating to try and talk to them. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1196 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Ah yes, Goodwins Mills. I remember when Ken Larose was up in that area and wasn't Ron Kelly up there at one time? During my last year at Bible College ('75) I was involved with the Sanford Sunday School ministry. Ron and Julie were with me during some very tough times in Toledo Ohio (bloody disaster). Their son Josiah was just a baby then as was my oldest. I had heard that Durkee was basically ok, what happened to him? If you've been around for 27 years, chances are we ran into each other once or twice, do I know you? | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
I doubt if we know each other. Diane and Bob White introduced me to TBS back in 1975 and I started attending but I never really was very involved in things and had only been to Lenox just once for a Woman's Seminar. I was married at the time and my husband came to 2 services. Then all hell broke loose. I dont know if you remember this or not, but in Scarborough there was an incident where corporal punishment was used on a kid that was out of control, and it got into the newspapers. Before everyone knew it, TBS was suddenly labeled as a group that beat kids. Well, my in-laws just about flipped out and really got to my husband about it. All of a sudden, he wanted nothing to do with the church anymore and eventually we divorced. He cheated on me with an 18 year old. If I had had HALF A BRAIN BACK THEN, I should have left too and found a healthy church. But what did any of us know back then??? We were naive and trusting and excited about the ministry and Pastor Stevens. As for George Durkee, he was very controlling and sarcastic and he singled out particular people in the church that he didnt like and had an attitude. In particular, Wally White's mother, among others. He also demanded that Cathy start teaching certain things in the Sunday School class that went against what we all believed. I guess it was some sort of Hyper-Calvinism from what I was told by others. He really was obsessed also with "Election" which none of us really agreed with. The doctrine of Election. I do seem to remember that Ron Kelly was at the Lyman church at one time, as well as Pastor Duff Sr. Hey, whatever happened to Marty O'Brien and Pastor Peter Inchcombe? Remember him? He was from England. | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Another thing, I have been reading alot about Jack Hyles at someone's suggestion. I have read testimonies from people who left Hammond Baptist Church and what I've been reading is enough to blow your mind. TBS sounds just like Hyles church! I think Pastor Stevens modeled himself after Jack Hyles, dont you? There are so many similarities its eerie! Have you ever seen or met Jack Hyles? He used to visit Lenox and Baltimore from time to time didnt he? | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1197 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Wow redeemed that's a lot to deal with. 1. I remember the whole incident concerning the corporal punishment. One of the involved parties posts on this forum and as far as I'm concerned has borne a bum rap for almost thirty years. The real culprits were the higher ups all the way to Carl Stevens who personally demanded that those kids get their butts whipped--hard. The young lady involved went to Joel Freeman's ministry in Baltimore--I saw her there in the early 90s. 2. Marty O'Brien posts on this forum as Bruder5 and I think he still has a weekly (?) radio show called Grace Street (?) he is a counselor in the Portland area. (Correct me Bruder5 if I've misrepresented you). 3. Mark Bell, Jim Hennessy, Jerry Hennessy, (sp) Lou Kahlenbeck, and Ed Canino and I built the chapel at Scarborough in 1974. Occasionally, I came over to teach a class in Bible at the school. 4. Inchcombe the last I heard had divorced (this may all be false). But a sad tale is what I remember. 5. I don't think Hyles ever visited, but I do remember Carl getting inflated at being mentioned on one of Hyles's taped messages. Hyles also had trouble with the same issues as Carl. He kept a 'secretary' as well. 6. CHS and most others inside TBS/GGWO labeled anything that was not "their view" as hyper-one-thing-or-another. While I don't know Durkee--control has always been an issue with GGWO pastors. Whenever one of these guys goes through a doctrinal change, it's hard to leave the crap behind as well. Read on here for very long and you'll no doubt find that I'm the resident Calvinist. CHS and GGWO has always been Arminian except for the "you can lose your salvation" issue--on every other point they are thoroughly Arminian. While I don't endorse anyone's heavy-handed authoritarian overbearing behavior with their congregants, all Christians whether Calvinist or not hold to some sort of view of election just because its in scripture. That being said, I'm sorry to hear Durkee didn't handle himself well. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1198 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Inchcombe was from the channel island of Jersey. Jim Sivo at one time attempted to plant a church there. I don't think it was successful. Inchcombe's wife was from Iceland. One silly anecdote I remember about Inchcombe, occured in the late 70s. A couple of teenage girls were misbehaving in his service one Sunday and he gave them stern looks. At the door he met them with smiles and said, "You two are really a couple of fa-gg0ts!" They wilted. Inchcombe couldn't grasp why they were so insulted. In England, a fa-gg0t is a meatball and after all--meatball was a popular epithet heard weekly on "All In The Family". FN does not allow certain words. | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 334 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
No, it was MEATHEAD...that was what Archie called his son in law Mike. Jack Hyles never visited the ministry in Lenox or Baltimore, but he was definitely a role model for P.Stevens, and he mentioned him often, along with a few others such as D.L.Moody. I know that the large bus ministry in Maine was modelled after Jack Hyles' bus ministry. As for George Durkee, he was involved with security and almost all of those security guys had a Barney Fife mentality. Such as Lloyd Sargent, and that big red haired guy (Seph???) who thought he was Super Cop. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1199 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
selph | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Okay, then explain to me what you believe about Election. Some people teach that God "chooses" certain ones for salvation and others he doesnt. Called Pre-destination? I was always of the belief that God doesnt choose some, over others. He draws everyone, or trys to, but the decision is OURS. "He's not willing that any should perish". I always interpreted Election just to mean that God foreknew, our hearts, and who would choose Christ and who wouldnt. So, the "elect" are we who chose to believe the Gospel and accept Jesus as our Savior. Am I right? | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1200 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
redeemed, There are several views of election held by evangelical Christians today. The one we were taught by CHS said that God predestines according to his knowing ahead of time how we will decide. Another view, which CHS also seemed to have held to, taught that only Jesus is the elect one and when we become Christians we become part of a 'class' of elect persons in Christ. Another view, held by evangelical Lutherans, explains that God regenerates Christians who are the elect and others choose not to hear the gospel. The first two of these views are thoroughly Arminian, emphasing human freedom. What I believe makes little difference, CHS as you know comes from a Baptist background. Before the 1972 episode, what was to become TBS was first called Woolwich Wiscasset Baptist church (that church is still there and still called Baptist). This is the teaching to which most evangelical Baptists held when they first came to America. This situation only changed significantly with the revivalism of Charles Finney in the 19th century. Every Protestant denomination (except the Lutherans) which emerged from the Reformation held to a similar doctrine. This is from my church's website. We are not hyper-calvinistic which amounts to being fatalistic. | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Yes Charles Finney. I've read some about him. Alot of scholars think he was off in some of his beliefs. I guess I adhere to the Baptist interpretation. I would be curious to know about other pastors on radio, and what they believe. David Jeremiah, Charles Stanley (who is a Baptist I believe) Pastor John Hagee. Now John Hagee I listen to when I get a chance, but some people dont agree with him on his staunch support of Israel. Have you ever heard him speak? | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Also, I read the Westminster Statement of Faith. I have always wondered what Presbyterians believed, what their doctrine was. Wasnt J. Vernon McGee a Presbyterian? I think he was. He was my all time favorite teacher on the radio. I was just remembering the Old Scarborough Days and some of the people who left the ministry a long time ago. Any idea what became of the following people: Gary & Rindy Lemaster Bill Fisher Roberta Hall Linda Canino Leon Libby Nancy Merry Mike & Nella Bailey Any idea where these folks are now? | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1202 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Hagee's ministry is in San Antonio. I am from South Texas and still live in the area. We have friends who attend Cornerstone church. I cannot think of much that I agree with Hagee on. I am not a dispensationalist any longer, etc. However, I will say this for Hagee among all the others, he is a logically sound Arminian. He holds to a decision that regenerates, a view of election that has God "looking down the tunnel of time" but he also holds that a person can walk away from their salvation--which upsets a lot of his congregation. But if you're going to hold to Arminian views, you might as well be consistent--and Hagee is just that, and I commend him for his logical honesty. Yes, to answer your question, I have heard Hagee speak at his church. J. Vernon McGee was a Presbyterian to begin with but left the old PCUS because of its liberalism, he was pastor of the Church of the Open Door founded by R.A. Torrey in California which is nondenominational. The PCA is not liberal and is evangelical. Gary Lemaster teaches at Azusa Pacific in the management department. You can find him on google. Bill Fisher and Lisbeth live in Georgia. He works at the Haggai Institute. Roberta Hall is married to Powell's brother. As far as I know they are part of the IAGM. Linda Canino lives in North Carolina. Leon Libby lives in Maine. His sister in law, littlesister, posts on this forum. I too would love to hear what ever happened to Nancy Merry and the Baileys. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1203 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Here's Lemaster's page at Azusa Pacific. | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
thanks for the info. Very interesting.. Gary Lemaster did well huh? Joel Freeman too. I know Pastor Bruce Brown & Nancy. I think they are part of the IAGM too. I think Joel is Nancy's brother. Did you know Wally & Cathy White at all? | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1204 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
I graduated with and stay in touch with Joel, new book coming out soon. Memory's a little rusty on Wally and Cathy, but if I saw a photo of them I'd probably recognize them--I'm better with faces. More info on some others here: www.carlstevens.org see the stories section. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1205 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
You got me whatsup, but Inchcombe must have been really confused then. First word I learned from the Finns: laskipaa | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Thanks for the info and thats a great website you gave me. A friend of mine is really into Pastor Hagee. You say that P Hagee believes you lose your salvation? I told my friend that and she was shocked. I guess she didnt know that. P Hagee is a product of Oral Roberts Univ I think. Dont really know what their doctrine is. Getting back to CHS, I did read somewhere that when a person becomes a new christian, most of us are totally uneducated in spiritual matters/theology. We are not prepared to discriminate with the entire "spiritual smorgasbord" with which we are presented, so its easy to just "believe" whatever we are told, by someone such as CHS because they appear to be: educated, knowledgeable, in touch with God. Unless one literally takes everything they hear, and checks it out, its easy to have the wool pulled over your eyes. I'm not saying that everything we were taught was wrong, far from it. But alot was. I dont think it ever occured to most of us, to dig, read, and prove what was preached was indeed the truth! What do you think Cordell? Am I at least partially on target? | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1210 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Of course you are. We don't expect our infant children to walk and talk at birth, and there are discriptions of scripture being called both milk and meat. One needs teeth for the latter. In the same manner, teachers according to Peter, James and Paul bear a greater responsibility in their feeding of the flock of God. We are charged with a responsibility to compare scripture with scripture and we are reminded of the greater nobility of Bereans who searched the scriptures to see whether the things which Paul taught were so. CHS used to twist this scripture to make out like these folks were not scrutinizing the teachings of Paul, which is in fact exactly what they were doing. Paul, if he was inspired, would bear up under this process--having all he said vindicated and approved by the inspired Prophets who had gone before him. CHS on the other hand had everything to lose when his 'doctrine' was really put under the light of scripture. On another note, redeemed, someone who posts here feels they know you and would like to get in touch. No one wants to compromise your anonymity, but if you would be willing I will forward an email from you to this other person who was in Scarborough in the 70s. You needn't reveal any identity. somebonus@yahoo.com Hagee's doctorate is an honorary title from ORU. He received his ministerial degree from his past connection with the Assemblies of God. The AoG is a pentecostal denomination which holds to Arminian doctrine. Oral Roberts had a background in Methodism which is also Arminian. | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
thanks for that explanation! I think that where CHS messed up, was he was too hasty in starting a church. Should have become educated first and had accountability to someone. You dont just read the writings of other scholars and consider that your education. It always bothered me that the school was not accredited and that there was no formal MEMBERSHIP in the church. Now I understand why! If we had all been bona fide "members", we would have had a say in what went on, and decision making to some extent. The "elite" at the top didnt want that. They just wanted all the power for a few. I truly believe that CHS patterned just about everything after Jack Hyles ministry. The similarities are astounding. Today at church, where I go now, the message was terrific. The pastor preached that "all of us are priests, not just the pastor. The church is praying right now about who God wants as our Senior Pastor but he said that even if its awhile before we get one, "there are many priests right here in the congregation and God wants people to have leadership in a church. Its not just about the Pastor. He pulled in many scriptures about US being priests. Its a joy to be learning the right things now. | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1211 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
maybe you remember how much CHS loved to do 'imitations' of other radio evangelists and pastors--he could do Jack Hyles, Oliver B. Green, R.W. Shambach (sp?), Bob Jones, Sr. etc. He really was a parrot, a mimic who was talented in imitating the way these guys preached. later he started calling his mimicry 'the anointing'--he could cry, get really serious, talk low, scream and shout to order. there was no 'anointing'-- just CHS doing his parroting while adding his own spin to their 'doctrines' to his own benefit. CHS was never up front about his 'education', though I'm pretty sure he finished High School. He claims to have done a course through Moody Bible Institute. I visited Moody in 1986 or '87 and the only course CHS could have done without there being any record is the one offered on the Scofield Reference Bible (which in itself is chock full of error). That course leads to no real pastoral qualification, but then Baptist churches will even now ordain 'preacher boys' without any significant education. I am not a fan of the whole "Sr. Pastor" position in churches. More trouble than benefit--the focus is always on a single individual rather than as your interim has said "we are all priests". | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
"Pagan Christianity..the origins of our modern church practices". Book by Frank Viola. I read this book about a year ago and found it quite fascinating and food for thought. He has another book called "Rethinking the Wineskin". He more or less believes along the lines like you do, about Pastors, and even about the standard structured church service. Gives a very detailed history of "why we do what we do in church". Alot of people nowadays are ditching church altogether, and meeting in homes where everyone participates in worship, song, and sharing from the word. As nice as this seems, I dont know how I feel about it. The Pastor IS scriptural. Scripture is clear that we are to have pastor teachers, giving them double honor, etc. BUT... they are never to be elevated above the other "priests" and they are to be accountable to Deacons and Elders. Another thing I didnt like about GGWO. WHO were the Deacons and Elders? Anybody? | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
"I will give you pastors according to mine Heart" Jeremiah 3:15 and....1 Timothy 5:17 is about giving double honor to those who study and teach. I was trying to find scripture to back up the position of the pastor and found these. So, I think the Pastor is scriptural but there have to be checks and balances, as the saying goes!! Do you ever watch the GGWO church services on the internet? I do once in awhile out of curiousity | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 982 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
God raises up pastors according to His heart. Unfortunately some pastors like Carl Stevens and Tom Schaller raise up themselves according to their own hearts. God raises up pastors to teach God's truth. Some pastors want to teach their own ideas and pass them off as God's!! God raises pastors to be protective shephards to equip God's people for His service and to make an honest effort to keep them from false teachings and anything else that would lead them astray. Some pastors would rather isolate people from any information contrary to their own ideas and call that "protection". These guys would rather pass off any ideas or thoughts that they don't agree with as evil, negative, divisive, contrary to Scripture etc. They would also attempt to discredit anyone who questions them or disagrees with them through lies, twisted teachings about the Bible and outright slander. False teachers like these would "equip" people to serve themselves and have those people blindly trust them as an intermediary between them and Christ. They give attention to those they perceive have something to offer them and their own agendas. Others are ignored and alienated. Such is life at GGWO and has been for many years. While God may have been trying to establish a ministry through Carl Stevens, Carl clearly had his own agenda. Carl did not want to serve the people but wanted them to serve himself. He got very prideful and arrogant in his head knowledge of the Bible that was very faulty from the start. His refusal to be open and honest about any Biblical education he may or may not have had makes anything he says very suspect. He mixed truths with lies to trick anyone he could to lay down their own thinking abilities and blindly trust and obey him. His doctrines like delegated authority and his way of passing himself as more educated than he really was helped to lead many people astray. Carl had all these supposed names of demon armies to attempt to impress people that he was especially knowledgable of Scripture. His brainwashing techniques were even more sinister. People were reprogrammed to adopt Carl's theology, reject any dissenting viewpoints as evil, never think for themselves and consider ever leaving GGWO as leaving God's will for them. He also programmed them to think that speaking against Carl and his insiders or even disagreeing with them would bring God's wrath on them like getting cancer for example. Carl and his inner circle gained much wealth and power at the expense of the people. Many were manipulated to give up large amounts of money, time, real estate, their belief systems, and their loyalty to TBS/GGWO. How many times were people pressured to quit their jobs and spend three years to gain a worthless education and a worthless "degree" at the brainwashing academy of GGWO known as the Maryland Bible College and Seminary??? They wouldn't even be up front about the tuition rates but told people to just "trust God" and come anyway. Then they graduate with serious financial problems and got led astray from the truth. Many were high pressured to get worthless degrees their and those who wouldn't attend had their walks with God questioned, were treated like second class churchgoers and alienated. The Bible clearly teaches that God has instituted the office of the pastor for protecting God's people and equipping them for God's service. Pastors are supposed to have loving, giving, serving hearts that put God above all else. The GGWO "pastors" unaccountable, unethical, manipulative, self serving behavior is not at all what God intended. Its what Carl Stevens intended to benefit himself and his inner circle!!! (Message edited by sidethorn on December 17, 2006) | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Wow. Very well said. I am going to share this with a friend of mine who has also left the "ministry". I know that everyone likes to discredit delegated authority, but isnt delegated authority somewhat biblical? I mean, even in Business, there has to be "delegated authority" to some extent? I guess I believe that "authority" has its place, BUT, CHS totally twisted and used it to his advantage. I do distinctly remember being told not to listen to other pastors from other ministries because they had "levels of error" in their teaching. Now that I know the truth it makes me furious! I, for one, always listened to others anyway. Well, I guess we can all say that this ministry was the biggest "snow job" ever to be perpetrated on a group of people. BUT.. I dont think everything we were taught was wrong. Like the finished work, for example. Its sad that it had to become so screwed up. "Wolves in Sheeps Clothing" is all I can think of. | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Regarding the demon armies, where did CHS come up with all that? I only ask, because it seems to me, that I've heard other preachers teach something similar. Doesnt it make sense though, that Satan would have a very organized army of demons and that they all have specific purposes in trying to destroy us? I dont find that so hard to believe. But I would like to know where CHS came up with that.. or did he just copy it from someone else??? | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 984 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Thanks. There is a certain amount of authority in many places. In civil government, workplaces, and even churches. But there are limits to it. Nowhere is a Christian commanded to obey any kind of authority figure (including pastors) over what God commands in His Word or over God's will either. God brings up kings, and governors and brings them down. Not every pastor or boss in a workplace was brought there by God. Many of them were not and are there for less than honorable reasons. Carl Stevens's legacy is his own doing, not God's. You're so right by calling him a wolf in sheep's clothing. Very accurate description of this con man that mixes truths about the finished work at the cross, eternal security, forgiveness, covering, etc. to dodge all accountability and brainwash people to blindly trust and serve him. I also believe demon armies exist with different demons having different functions in different locations. Satan did come to kill, steal, and destroy. So do his demons. Where Carl Stevens got these names of demons from is beyond me. Maybe he made them up to impress people that he had more knowledge of the Bible and spiritual warfare than he really did. Maybe he copied some stuff too. In the end, I just cant take seriously what Carl taught about this or anything else!! | ||
| hey_you Member Username: hey_you Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.152.101.69 |
Hello Redeemed, I think you may remember me and my family. I remember John Titus and the Dubays very well. Would you send me an email, when you get a chance at outofgg@yahoo.com ? Thanks | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Its all very overwhelming. I am still absorbing everything. Where did CHS get that teaching that the Pastor presents the believer at the Bema Seat? I never heard anyone say that before. He also said that the pastor introduces his congregation IN THE AIR to the Lord Jesus, at the Rapture. What if you dont belong to any church? Then who presents you? Nobody believes this anymore, but we did for awhile!! | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 162 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 63.160.106.254 |
Redeemed, Indeed, it IS overwhelming to realize you've spent 27 years following falsehoods... (Me too. Just left last year, also after 27 years.) You know all those times Carl would say something to the effect that "you won't hear this anywhere else"? (Including his bema seat stuff). Most of it he simply made up. Twisted and used a few verses out of context to make it sound spiritual, then stuck his tongue in his cheek and dared you to question or challenge him. I recall more than one occasion when he'd tell us how many books he'd consulted, and NONE of them got it right. (Sort of like the woman pointing out soldiers on the parade ground: "Look! They're all out of step except my son!") And then he'd tell us the "correct" meaning of the passage. John | ||
| orangetwopay Advanced Member Username: orangetwopay Post Number: 564 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.32.36.200 |
this is the legacy of GG: http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/12/twelve-days-of-christmas-ggwo-style.html | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
YES! I remember him saying "you won't hear this anywhere else" or "you've never heard this before anywhere else". Yeah, now we know why. Because its bogus. How come CHS daughter Pam never followed him to So. Berwick? Maybe she saw thru him early on? | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 341 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
all of his kids left eventually...first Bruce, then Steve (although he did come back later), then Shaun and Melody.....and Donna was not around once she got older....this was very odd when you think about it, if he and his ministry was as special as he claimed | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 988 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
I'm really glad we don't hear messages like that anywhere else. That's a very good thing!!! I remember when my GGWO youth leader that I worked for at the time used to boast of Carl's teachings like that. He thought the teaching was so great that you couldn't find anything like it anywhere else. I don't think the word 'great' is the word I'd use to describe it. After being there a while, I started to see how full of it Carl really was and wouldn't take him seriously anymore. From then on, I started to expose him as the fraud he really is!! | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
You are right about being "glad" that we dont hear that kind of teaching anywhere else. After my eyes were opened to all this, I used to think "if this teaching is so great, then WHY hasnt God revealed it to others? Why just CHS?" I dont believe any one preacher would be singled out as being THAT special, that God would reveal things to him and not to other truly Godly men. What snow job. You gotta hand it to him though, to CHS. For someone not that educated, he sure took the prize when it comes to being clever and convincing. Should get an Academy Award. haha | ||
| sidethorn Advanced Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 989 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Maybe a Con Man Academy Award! LOL. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3481 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.105.7 |
How about, The Wood Hay and Stubble award? } | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1219 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 67.79.34.66 |
Pam and Jerry Morrison are STILL at the church in Wiscasset. Good on 'em. | ||
| redeemedinmaine New member Username: redeemedinmaine Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 64.222.201.22 |
Someone told me that Pastor Stevens at one time, wanted to be a television preacher. Is that true? Like those other TV evangelists I guess. | ||
| dancer2 New member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 85.156.168.99 |
Redeemedinmaine, Can you tell us anything about Frank and Geneva Baird these days (or any of their kids for that matter)? They were always a down east classic act. Probably my greatest memory of them was Geneva retelling the story of the time Carl was driving to the old church campground north of Wiscasset with my mother sitting behind him holding my then pre-school aged brother on her lap. Between Carl's radical driving and the little guy's tendencies to motion sickness, he soon had "the urge to regurge"! My mother tried to clamp a hand over his mouth to stop the flow, but that only served as a nozzle to send the projectile expulsion over the front seat and onto the driver's neck more effectively. Geneva would never forget the look on his face as he helplessly climbed from the car, walked over to her camp kitchen and said, "Geneva, I could never ask this of anyone else, but could you please help clean me up?!" If anyone would really want to know the human story behind how it all got started, Geneva would be the first source they should talk to. D2 | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1269 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
the colors of puke should have fit in well with those polyester suits of the day that CHS wore... | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3536 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.92 |
Thanks for the memories,,,, Da da da da da da , LOL. Children can be more perceptive than we think. Maybe that was the kids way of expressing his disagreement with Carl's doctrines. Hey, what I learned about the guys teaching made me sick too. LMAO } | ||
| dancer2 New member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 84.230.142.157 |
In adulthood the only thing the kid in question has said in retrospect about Carl's preaching is that sitting through sermons of up to 2 hours long helped him become a gifted day-dreamer. | ||
| huisjen Junior Member Username: huisjen Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 66.252.37.110 |
Untrue. It also was the beginning of my experiences with Restless Leg Syndrome. Besides, the day-dreaming was more the reson I flunked first grade. Dan | ||
| dancer2 New member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 84.230.142.157 |
Actually I was thinking of Don. Wasn't it him that did the cookie toss that time? We can talk about your leg and reminisce on elementary in private e-mail if you'd like. D2 | ||
| huisjen Junior Member Username: huisjen Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 66.252.37.23 |
No, that was me that puked on him. Dan | ||
| dancer2 New member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 84.230.142.157 |
Congrats | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3543 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.102.138 |
Give the man an award for ,,, projectile accuracy. --- Carl still needs help cleaning up it would seem. It's really sad that "man" can do the things he does isn't it? Especially when he knows what he's doing is harmful to himself and others and does nothing to get help. Marksmanship award,, that's what I meant. } | ||
| huisjen Junior Member Username: huisjen Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 66.252.38.78 |
(Acceptance Speech: ) I'd like to thank my mother for the hand she gave me in this accomplishment...  Dan | ||
| sidethorn Senior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 1010 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
Now thats what I call teamwork!!! LOL  | ||
| dancer2 New member Username: dancer2 Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 84.230.142.157 |
But in all seriousness, are Frank and Geneva still around, as in alive and in touch with real old school folks? Another seldom realized tidbit: Geneva was probably the first Barbara Stevens's greatest personal confidant. So if you really want to know... D2 | ||
| orangetwopay Advanced Member Username: orangetwopay Post Number: 581 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.34.29.182 |
what if carl teamed up with fred phelps... now THAT would be a legacy! http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2007/01/carl-joins-fred-phelps-rally.html | ||
| arguendo Advanced Member Username: arguendo Post Number: 732 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 151.207.244.4 |
hmmm...I think a little revisionism here http://www.ggwo.org/index.php?module=main&action=history | ||
| sonshine New member Username: sonshine Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.222.237.70 |
D2 Yes they are alive and ok. I see them often. They havent changed much. I also see most of the kids. Sonshine | ||
| lmao Intermediate Member Username: lmao Post Number: 349 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.251.144.6 |
From the link Arguendo posted above: "In 2005, the elders of GGWO unanimously elected Pastor Schaller as the ministry’s Presiding Elder and Pastor." Isn't it interesting that the Elders' vote for Stenger did not count. At the time, it was all about what the "Body" wanted, not the elders. Now when they write the history, the vote of the elders for schaller is what is remembered. Today they want us to put the past behind us and forgive and love each other. Okay, I forgive the past. But what about the lies they tell today regarding the past. The events happened long ago, but the lies are happening this very day on their own website. | ||
| johncollins Intermediate Member Username: johncollins Post Number: 167 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 69.143.75.131 |
From the link Arguendo posted above "Lenox, Mass., where the Bible Speaks World Outreach relocated in 1976.... In 1987, the ministry moved to Maryland and became Greater Grace World Outreach." In their own words, the Greater Grace of today claims to be a renamed version and continuation of the same ministry as The Bible Speaks. Does GG thus bear any legal responsibility for any debts of BS? Do statute of limitations render them untouchable for anything, or...? | ||
| sidethorn Senior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 1011 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 69.143.132.88 |
They (GGWO) want all of us to forgive and forget everything they ever did in the past as well as all the lying and manipulating and whatever else they're doing today! Just another way they want to do anything they want and avoid all responsibility and accountability. | ||
| brie Member Username: brie Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.99.185.50 |
What's the deal with Michael Marr? I notice he is no longer listed as an elder. Anyone? | ||
| brie Member Username: brie Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.99.185.50 |
What's the deal with Michael Marr? I notice he is no longer listed as an elder. Anyone? | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3554 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.102.224 |
Maybe this staement he made to the baltimore sun got him ousted. "In the Baltimore Sun article: Marr added that the church is concerned about any members it might have caused pain. "If there are people who are hurting, we are going to go reach them," he said." --- He said but he lied. Who has been contacted to have a meeting of reconciliation with the ministry? Who has recieved an appology for the harm done? Who in leadership has even acknowledged that anything wrong has taken place? --- Gotta love empty words. Words that can be spewed out to lull one into a false sense that things will be resolved in correct biblical fashion when in fact there is no intention of ever doing the right thing. Words that reveal the heinous nature of the beast within that says to God "I am". The pattern is set and will continue to flow downhill as it is now. There is a day coming that resistance to the truth will not be allowed. You leaders of GGWO might want to reconsider your resistance to God's will where it concerns "reconciliation" and correction in Biblical matters. You might want to stop lieing about the course of this questionable ministry too but you will reject reason again and again at your own peril. The sad thing is that you know better than to do this but still you persist. So be it. Enjoy the results. Let us see what you have to say in a court of law. No amount of money can protect you from the truth. Isaiah 29:15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Jeremiah 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. :2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. The Lord may be patient but He is also just. Tic,,,tic,,,tic. } | ||
| sidethorn Senior Member Username: sidethorn Post Number: 1013 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 169.253.4.21 |
Its a new year and that clock is closer to running out!!! Woe be to these hypocritical manipulators at GGWO who have no intent on reconciliation but the continuation of a man made kingdom that takes advantage of people for the benefit of an inner circle in the Name of Christ!!! One day it'll be 'TIME'S UP!' and then what will these guys do??? What will they say to God then?? HMMMMM. | ||
| sandy_point New member Username: sandy_point Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 68.153.114.241 |
redeemedinmaine posted: "Someone told me that Pastor Stevens at one time, wanted to be a television preacher. Is that true? Like those other TV evangelists I guess." He had his day behind the lights. It took place in a small local station, in Portland, I guess. The Stevens' kids would sing in their quartet: Bruce, Steve, Paul and Melody, and also sometimes the Swordsman Quartet, or somebody else like an Inez Smith(?) who sang in a hillybilly twang....it was pretty awful! Then Carl would preach. I think the program came on Sunday mornings. They also made records, the Stevens kids and the Swordsmans Quartet. Anybody else remember? | ||
| whatsup Intermediate Member Username: whatsup Post Number: 365 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.61.30.105 |
Michael Marr lie? NOOOO I cant believe THAT! What amazes me is if he ever speaks the truth. None of the slimy lawyer jokes can even touch how corrupt he is. I have an old record album of the Stevens family someone found at a yard sale and gave me. Carl is bald on the cover and Paul looks like a 70s geek in some horrible plaid suit. Kind of amusing and repulsive at the same time | ||
| cordell Senior Member Username: cordell Post Number: 1282 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.69.35.7 |
Dear Sandy Point, The station as I remember was in Poland Springs and I think it was channel 8, but it was so long ago. I remember traveling up there several times with CHS in my early days. Dan Lewis, Alanna Olivadoti, and Ron Kelly were one of the groups. That album has the entire family on it as I remember and Barbara sings a solo on it. | ||
| littlesister Member Username: littlesister Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 65.246.175.14 |
I have that album too - somewhere - and those were the days of the Alcorn Sisters. When I was a young impressionable PR exec up from Boston, they sang at the first service I attended - I really knew I was in Maine then. Yes, Cordell, it was channel 8 and I also remember having to make several trips up there to paint the upright piano that the groups used so it looked more barbershop, it was an orange antiquing kit we used. The show ended before Spikenard and Saffron started singing, however, I believe Bobby Soprano made a few guest appearances. Wow, that was a flashback. | ||
| david_munson Senior Member Username: david_munson Post Number: 3567 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 4.156.99.46 |
Back in the nineties I put many of the messages on cable tv in Waltham Mass.. He has had more than his fifteen minutes of fame. I wish I could have put the comments that Hodeuon has made correcting the error on at the same time. Regrets, yes but now error is being exposed as it should be. --- Bob Soprano, quite a singer. Any one remember East Wind? I think that's the name of the group. } | ||
| sandy_point |
