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curiosity18 (curiosity18)
New member
Username: curiosity18
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 205.153.156.60
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 4:57 pm: | 
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I am 18 years old and have been dating my boyfriend now for over a year and he is was raised as a Jehova's Witness. At first his parents were unaccepting of our relationship because i was not raised as a witness, but after they figured i wasnt going anywhere they decided that the best plan was to try and convert me. Despite everything that i had heard about the religion and their beleifs i have continued to keep an open mind and at his family's insistance i have accompanied them to the kingdom hall on numerous occassions. Instead of finding a cult of evil doers and liars i found a group of warm, loving, and honest people. although i was raised in a christian church i have found that most of the people who attend my church go just to uphold and image and they live their lives completely wrong. This is the first religion i have ever encountered where the people genuinely practice what they preach. And i dont understand why they get bad-mouthed for going door to door... they dont get paid for it, they do it because they beleive that the message they are bringing will give eternal life. What christian do u know would walk around and have people continuously slam doors in their faces and insult them out of the goodness of their hearts... all i know is that it is hard to have a relationship with someone who is a jehova's witness especially because they generally like to avoid people not associated with them, but if u take the time to get to know them they are actually good people, and might just be the ones with the right idea. |
yaakov (yaakov)
Intermediate Member
Username: yaakov
Post Number: 215
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 63.148.234.6
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
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What christian do u know would walk around and have people continuously slam doors in their faces
Mormons also go around door-to-door and gets doors slammed in their faces. In my area, many Southern Baptists receive the door slamming experience also.
but if u take the time to get to know them they are actually good people...
I believe that most people are good people. |
curiosity18 (curiosity18)
New member
Username: curiosity18
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 69.226.24.42
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 5:51 pm: |
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Mormons get paid and i dont live in the south... very few people i meet in this world are good people |
stella (stella)
New member
Username: stella
Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 68.52.190.227
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 7:32 pm: |
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curiosity18- RUN!!! |
yaakov (yaakov)
Intermediate Member
Username: yaakov
Post Number: 216
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.205.188.53
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 8:25 pm: |
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Curiosity
How much do they get paid to get doors slammed in their faces? Is it a flat daily rate or is it per door?
I am sorry that you don't meet good people. Almost everyone that I meet or come in contact with are good people. Even here, I think that ,most of the people posting here are good people. |
bee (bee)
Junior Member
Username: bee
Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.38.240.103
| | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
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Yaakov,
With all due respect only God is good.
Many Blessings! |
yaakov (yaakov)
Intermediate Member
Username: yaakov
Post Number: 218
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.205.188.53
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 12:30 am: |
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Again with this stuff, Bee? Are you following me around?
With all due respect, we are created in God's image. Thus, we are mostly good with a prediliction for evil.
(Message edited by Yaakov on February 19, 2005) |
bee (bee)
Junior Member
Username: bee
Post Number: 40
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 4.238.8.22
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
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Dear Yaakov,
You wrote: Again with this stuff, Bee?
It is still my heart & conviction that only God is good as His Word says & Jesus also taught.
You worte: Are you following me around?
If you are asking if I post to only you, the answer would be no. I will try not to post to you in the future if it bothers you. Sorry.
God be with You Yaakov. |
joesdad (joesdad)
Junior Member
Username: joesdad
Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 62.253.215.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 4:37 am: |
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Curiosity18 - Firstly, Mormons don;t get paid, check who you heard that from, and their sources.
Secondly, you can ignore Stella - she has a unique form of bitterness she is spreading across many of these threads.
I am a Mormon, and we are, as I feel are JW's falsely accused of many things.
I work with JW's and Mormons, and find both to be very friendly and generally good Christain sorts.
Just as I have investigated the beliefs of my religion, I have had the opportunity of looking, though I must admit briefly at those of the JW's. my investigation came up short as I very quickly came across a discrepancy that I was taken to their Elders, and never answered.
If you would like to know more, let me know and I will give you the details.
HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO FIND THE REAL TRUTH IF WE ARE NOT PREPARED TO SEEK IT?, and be honest with ourselves when the answers come? |
godchild (godchild)
Intermediate Member
Username: godchild
Post Number: 266
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 64.28.62.178
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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curiosity, I don't think anyone would argue that JW's have the right to go door to door. We are told to 'follow me' meaning Christ.
I have seen many links that show a picture of Satan. They all show him as the red, horned, fanged, ugly creature. The Holy Bible tells us he appears as a beautiful angel. The 'lie' works for him as long as people keep describing him as this horrible creature. The same goes por people. I am not saying JW's are faking it. They are good people. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Jw's will recieve their blessings.
There are so many 'organized religions' that claim "we are the 144,000. If you don't join us you are lost forever". That is not scriptural and it limits God (in man's eyes). Have you ever heard a matnematicl term, casting out nines. If you add one and four and four you get zero. Some could say that means no one is saved.
Jesus rebuked the people for always thinking in times and numbers. As for any organized religion saying "we are the only true church", the Holy Bible also states, "the first shall be last, and the last shall be first".
There are many good people in this world, and I am thankful to live amongst some of the best. But some people who appear to be the best people, turn out to be the most evil. That is their snare. By following what the Holy Bible tells you (you personally, all by yourself), you can avoid that snare. Then if you are with JW's or any other group, you will be able to discern the truth about them through the Holy Spirit in you. Then the choice is yours.
The Holy Bible does not say, your church will be judged. It says you will be judged. I get this picture in my mind. I imagine all these groups telling the Lord God, "but I was in this groups so I should be exempt. He replies, "you speak me with your mouth, but I don't know you". |
rebel8 (rebel8)
New member
Username: rebel8
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 139.127.189.218
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 11:20 am: |
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Curiosity18, Most cult recruiters are friendly and seem nice/sincere in the beginning...that's a technique...doesn't mean it's true.
I was a jw for 10 yrs and have been out for more yrs than that. I can tell you for a certainty, it sounds nice in the beginning, but eventually, you will regret joining. Please visit www.jwinfo.50megs.com and read the stuff on this site too. It will give you an insight into what you're getting into. |
praetorian (praetorian)
New member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 12.103.171.221
| | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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MUCH TO DO ABOUT NOTHING
I am a disfellowshiped JW and thought I would, for the fun of it include my two cents….
One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’
Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board.
I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.” |
linda21 (linda21)
New member
Username: linda21
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 209.98.211.121
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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Curiosity,
You will find only negative answers here. Do research for yourself and study the bible to see what its teachings mean. You will find that Jehovah Witnesses do speak the truth, while the majority of the world don't have time to care about the bible. People get mad because the witnesses say they speak the truth, why? Does it threaten their own faith? I don't know, but find out on your own. The bible has the answers to your questions that you will not find here. |
luvliberty (luvliberty)
New member
Username: luvliberty
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 66.141.211.88
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
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I am with Stella- RUN! any who have been involved with the witnesses for an extensive period of time know that the inner workings are far different from the docile, seemingly loving exterior of thet group. |
blaster1106 (blaster1106)
New member
Username: blaster1106
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.251.25.240
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 2:04 am: |
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I am a JW and and dont ever regret being one. curiosity18 i really liked your post. |
luvliberty (luvliberty)
New member
Username: luvliberty
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 192.173.34.74
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 9:43 am: |
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I am glad that you like being a jw and for those who wish to live by that rule system - more power to ya but if you are a true blue JW, what are you doing on this site or others like it...? the elders and org have made it clear that sites like this are frowned on. The society has put in print info. discouraging this type of use of the internet- |
marilyn_m (marilyn_m)
New member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.222.57.138
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:47 pm: |
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curiosity,do you think that your boyfriends family are nice people just because they are jw. i know lots of nice people and they are not all jw. their religion teaches them to be like that because you can catch more flies with honey. would you want to go to their meetings if they were nasty to you?I'm not saying that their not nice people just that you don't have to be jw to have good qualities |
luvliberty (luvliberty)
Junior Member
Username: luvliberty
Post Number: 26
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 209.183.171.157
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
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yeah individual jws usually are nice on the surface-however the "rule system andthe rigid regime" keep them pretty stressed if they are doing everything they are encouraged to do-preach, teach, go to 5 meetings a week, maintain clean cars and have homes that are immaculate, study, keep up with family duties etc. etc. this schedule keeps them so busy that they have no time to really think about what is actually being done in the org. oh, i forgot another important suggestion from the society... if possible they would like you to do this all on a part-time job- part-time because that allows for more activity in the ministry!sometimes I marvel that anyone is able to keep up with all that and in my experience most of the witnesses are not- |
bonny21 (bonny21)
New member
Username: bonny21
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 202.43.226.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:30 am: |
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Hi curiosity18. I'm glad you didn't take notice of the crap you heard. Don't take notice of some of these people either. Any that have been witnesses know its the truth & that they are good people & they make up lies and bad mouth it to make themselves feel better. I have associated with the witnesses all my life (I am 21) & been in different congregations in differnent areas & agree with you, they are all such loving people who practice what they preach unlike some other so called christians. For the record mormans do get paid when they finish there 2 year ministry (ask the next one that comes to your door). joesdad is full of it. So are so many people & internet sites. Please don't take everything read on the net seriously. I have met alot of people I that I thought were nice that aren't witness, don't get me wrong some genuanly are but so many will lie & do things that you know a witness won't do because they have strong morals. I have been out with guys who aren't witnesses & have suffered a lot of heartbrake because they just don't have the standards that witness guys do. You go girl for finding a nice guy with a good christian up-bringing. I hope you have a happy life. |
luvliberty (luvliberty)
Junior Member
Username: luvliberty
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 209.183.171.150
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:22 am: |
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hello bonnie21,
are you a jehovahs witness? i am trying to understand your situation, for one thing if you are not a witness what are jw guys doing dating you? they must be "weak" (that is the term used for those who... well are not as firm in their faith- that is used by the witnesses)that would not fly in the congregation if elders knew about it- they want dating going on between 2 baptized jws. also, if you are a witness, you must be weak because haven't you read the info. in the watchtower and other writings about getting involved in this type of forum on the net?it is frowned on also- nobody is saying there are not nice jws, heck there are good people in every religion ,all we are saying is our own experiences with the witnesses and i think you would have a very hard time disputing events in which you were not present and know nothing about- you said it when you said there are people on here with loads of CRAP! well I am glad that you have had good experiences with the jw guys but nothing in this world is guaranteed- I know as many jw men who did immoral things as non- so don't put all your eggs in that basket! |
tlmtn (tlmtn)
New member
Username: tlmtn
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.16.181.83
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 9:08 pm: |
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curiosity18,
I was born and raised a Jw. The people are mainly good people. You need to research what you are getting into. Go to the Library or the net and Russel who started them. Yow find that he was part of second day Advinist organization and decied some of their beliefs were wrong. So he made up his own religon based off theirs. If you look at their littature you will see how they change beliefs over the years on many issues of the Awake. They also, keep there flock close and forbid dating or marry out of JW's. That should be a flag there. They say to stay away from the world and worldly ways. And they also require there people to go to door to door. (works) The only way to be saved is through Jesus christ and knowing he died for you on the cross. Not through works. I would suggest researching any relgion you decide to go to, before joining it. I hope this is helpful. I not trying put down them down I have family members how are JW's and I prey for them every day. |
marilyn_m (marilyn_m)
Junior Member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 42
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.222.57.138
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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timtn," The only way to be saved is through Jesus christ and knowing he died for you on the cross. Not through works.' Is this what you believe, then why does the Bible clearly state in James 2;20 it says 20" But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead"
If all you have to do is believe that Jesus died for us then anyone can willing commit sins of all kinds and never have to act in a Christian way. I'm sorry, but to be a Christian is to at least try to act like one, That means "WORKS" . |
luvliberty (luvliberty)
Intermediate Member
Username: luvliberty
Post Number: 130
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 209.183.171.213
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
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Faith is accompanied by works in that when we have faith in something, we are motivated to act on behalf of the belief, however my interpretation of what timtn is saying is that everlasting life through Jesus is a gift- we could never "earn" the right to everlasting life through works- even though the witnesses also lay claim to this belief they belie it by putting the stress on the "works" end of it, as though the more preaching etc. you do the more you earn your way- |
marilyn_m (marilyn_m)
Junior Member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.222.57.138
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
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luvliberty,Thank you for your imput on the topic.
tlmtn, is luvliberty's interpretation of what you said correct? |
marilyn_m (marilyn_m)
Junior Member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 45
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.222.57.138
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 7:49 pm: |
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luvliberty, Don't you have to laugh at some of the less experienced in life. When I was 21 I thought I knew it all too. I have associated with Jw’s all of my life too, in fact I have family members that are JW’sand I know for a FACT that they are sweet to your face but I have heard them say nasty things about the same people they claim to like.
I heard a family member say that she hated one the elders & I know that they get drunk
when they think their JW friends are not looking. I know one Jw that smokes weed & I
used to personally know a young JW man that rapped a friend of someone in my family.
So HOW DARE ANYONE say that I bad mouth JW’s to make myself feel better.
That religion was my whole life and I loved it and the people in it untill I seen
what they do to each other behind closed doors. I don’t bad mouth anyone for the fun of it,
I only speak from my life experiences. Maybe when some of these young people grow up
They will have some life experiences to speak of too. Lets make it clear to all that there
are some good people in JW’S but there are a lot of hypocrites hiding there too.
Just because someone has always had good experiences with the JW’s , they would
have to be pretty naive to think that they are all so sweet. There are hypocrites in all
religion and that includes the JW’s too, the difference is that they work even harder
at trying to hide it and don’t even get me started on the child abuse. |
marilyn_m (marilyn_m)
Junior Member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 46
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.222.57.138
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 7:56 pm: |
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Oh yea and every thing luvliberty said too. luvliberty, you go girl! |
luvliberty (luvliberty)
Intermediate Member
Username: luvliberty
Post Number: 137
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 209.183.171.253
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 3:48 pm: |
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I know- it is actually a bit irritating to have people insinuate that the people on here with experiences with that group are doing this for the heck of it or to try to make ourselves feel better-when they have spent 25 or so years on the "treadmill" and applying what they are taught to the utmost of their ability then maybe they can speak with authority on the subject- as for us we have our battle scars and I feel have earned the right to say whatever we want about the JWs-I was one of the "good" kids growing up in that org- I never got disfellowshipped or marked or anything, tried to apply all their "rules" on everything from dating to how to dress appropriately, so it is not like I have been bittered from being in "trouble" with the elders but I have witnessed the hypocrisy just as you and am disgusted by it- and you are so right when you say that they know how to hide it- |
ball_of_fluff (ball_of_fluff)
Intermediate Member
Username: ball_of_fluff
Post Number: 327
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.17.18.246
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 1:20 am: |
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I don't think it's so much are the people warm sincere and earnest as whether or not you agree with the theology of the Jehovah's Witness church. |
marilyn_m (marilyn_m)
Member
Username: marilyn_m
Post Number: 56
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.222.57.138
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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luvliberty,I can understand how you must be disgusted having been raised as a JW & seeing the
hypocrisy all your life. I was involved with them for about 15 years & that was more than enough for me. As you said, we have earned our battle scars & the right to speak the truth about what we know.There is nothing wrong with that as long as we always speak the truth from our own experiences.
9 times out of 10 those that are on here defending the JW's are other JW's & they are not suppose to be on here in the first place, what does that say right there about their loyalty to their religion? |
adonijah (adonijah)
New member
Username: adonijah
Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.60.80.253
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:36 pm: |
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luvliberty,I can understand how you must be disgusted having been raised as a JW & seeing the
hypocrisy all your life. I was involved with them for about 15 years & that was more than enough for me. As you said, we have earned our battle scars & the right to speak the truth about what we know.There is nothing wrong with that as long as we always speak the truth from our own experiences.
9 times out of 10 those that are on here defending the JW's are other JW's & they are not suppose to be on here in the first place, what does that say right there about their loyalty to their religion?
Marilyn_m as a former JW you choose to leave, does this mean that you were never loyal in the first place?, only you can answer that question, however as a current JW I'm here because I have made a choice, Jehovah does not want robots and whether I'm suppose to be here or not, is my choice. Why is it ok for you to make a choice and not be disloyal to JEHOVAH and for me to be and yet be disloyal? please consider my inquiry.Also, it looks like you were looking for perfection, tell me are you perfect or is your faith in JEHOVAH to clean his own house of abusers of all sorts, weak. Remember, you choose the path you are on now. Either be happy with your choice or do not, the choice, as always, is yours... |
rebel8 (rebel8)
New member
Username: rebel8
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 139.127.189.218
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 2:28 pm: |
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adonijah
Please provide a quote from Watchtower literature that permits you to talk to "apostates" without risking getting disfellowshipped yourself.
What would happen if you shared your real name and congregation address and we mailed a copy of this thread to the elders? You would get disfellowshipped. Independent thinking is not allowed among Jehovah's Witnesses. The only way you can engage in independent thinking and not jeopardize your good standing in the congregation is to cover up your indepdendent thoughts.
Cults use punishment against those who engage in independent thinking. |
adonijah (adonijah)
New member
Username: adonijah
Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.60.80.23
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
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Rebel8,
Are you with the Calvry Chapel? or are you an apostate?, I'm just curious, no insult intended. |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
New member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.146.118.217
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 2:05 am: |
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Curiosity:
A friend told me today about this thread, and it is because of you that I have registered to post here.
I hate to be the one to tell you this, Love, but the "warm, loving, and honest" reception you have observed at the Kingdom Hall is a well-calculated, intentional facade. I am a Christian apologist and work extensively with Jehovah's Witnesses. My housemate is a former Witness, and now a born-again Christian. My best friend is a former Witness (and the reason I started doing this work several years ago, in the first place), and is currently--for the past two years since she left the Watchtower--severely, clinically depressed, often suicidal and very isolated, not willing to trust anyone again--especially in matters of religion.
The Witnesses treated both of these women like queens, too--right until they were baptised. After that their congregations used them, their vehicles and their resources until there was nothing left. And then they were on there own, literally.
When the constant demands of two elderly sisters drove my dearest friend to a very frightening nervous breakdown, I actually sat in the living room of one of these women (after having returned from admitting my friend to the hospital), in the presence of an elder's wife, while this old battle-axe sat on the phone with three consecutive congregation members calumniating, slandering and denouncing my closest friend on earth--because she couldn't keep up with their demands for "service".
Those women sat there right in front of me (a known "opposer") and called her "a snake in the grass", "a money monger" (one would think you could fork over five dollars every now-and-then for gas when you have someone carting you here-and-there every single day of the week...) and "a lying scank", just to name a few (and these were the nice ones).
After I reported this to their elders--and the elder's wife confirmed the conversations--they were "counselled" privately, outside the eyes and ears of the congregation they had poisoned. But not one of them ever apologised to my friend, or looked her in the eye again when she later tried to return to the KH.
How's that for the "love" of "Jehovah's people", the "friends"? You get used for everything from errands to rides to your far-off field service appointments (without comensation), you get to refinish their furniture (for free), baby sit their kids (for free), weed their flowerbeds and gardens (for free), buy their books (which they're not supposed to have), and when you're in the hospital after five years of this and put into a veritable coma for your own safety, you're a snake in the grass...
Unfortunately, this is not an isolated happening. I get calls and emails from all over the country regularly from people who have had the same experiences. The only differences are the players and the locales--but the culture is universal.
I have to say that you really do not have any idea what you are playing with here. Even Satan appears as an angel of light--and you're looking straight into his eyes every time you walk into a Kingdom Hall meeting, and he's sneering right back at ya. I would be complicit with your fall if I did not warn you to be on your guard and educate yourself a lot more than what you have. What you are experiencing now will end the day you go to a Convention and get yourself baptised.
And just so you know, I joined a cult when I was 18, as well. I joined the Mormons out of love for a guy--and the "heaven" I was promised, and suffered six years of hell on earth for the priviledge--it was the *exact* same thing there. And I thought I knew everything about them, too--even though others had tried to forewarn me. In the end, I knew nothing....The facade is much prettier than the tomb. Do not be lead down a primrose path.
One other thing--both the National Institutes of Mental Health and the American Psychiatric Association call the Watchtower Society a mind control cult. Want to know why? Well, for one, they meet all the major criteria for such a designation according to those who study these things professionally--the criteria do not change from organisation to organisation, they are always the same. For another, JW's have a much higher incidence of serious mental illness (SMI) diagnoses (that's plural) than the national average--including and especially suicides and schizophrenia. But this is just the tip of a very huge iceberg--there are several other profound reasons to label the WTS a cult, and it isn't prejudical.
So please use your critical thinking skills (before you hand them over to submission to the Society) and *thoroughly* investigate this topic before you jump on the band wagon and go off pioneering.
If you need help, email me and I'll give you my number.
In His Grace,
miki |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
New member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.146.118.217
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 2:53 am: |
|
On Some Other Notes:
Yaakov/joesdad: Mormons, as with Jehovah's Witnesses, are *NOT* Christians--they deny the eternal Deity of Christ, and their idea of the Trinity (it varies wildly across hundreds of successful Mormon splinter groups--the Worlwide Community of Christ/formerly the RLDS has the most orthodox doctrine, here) is very mangled.
Curiosity: Mormons do *not* get paid for missionary service, ever. In fact, Mormon missionaries must demonstrate to their bishops and stake presidents that they have saved a minimum of $7,000.00 US before even "putting in their mission papers" to pay for their own expenses. The Church does not support them, they support themselves, and even pay for their own transportation to, in, and from their assigned territory.
Praetorian: The general concensus of Christians is *not* that all roads lead to God--that is a Zen Buddist belief you've got yourself there. And no Christian in their right mind would believe that any Witnesses are saved. How can they be when none of them--with the exception of that always-changing 144,000--are going to heaven? You entirely miss the Biblical concept of Salvation.
Linda21: Christians do not "get mad" because Witnesses "tell the truth". On the contrary, Witnesses lie on a regular basis and don't even know they're doing it. But that's what happens when you don't chack your sources and believe the so-called scholarship coming out of Bethel. They are victims of victims, and it's a viscious cycle.
I had to write to Bethel three times to get them to send me the bibliographies for "Should You Believe in the Trinity?" and "The Divine Name That Endures Forever"--and then went and bought every single obscure quoted material listed (more than 200 in total). Three sources I had to go to Harvard Theological Archives and Oxford University in Oxford, England to have certified copies made of archived materials never published (like the personal noted re: John 1:1 by Joseph Henry Thayer that is housed at Harvard and only copied with special permission).
And guess what I found out in the process of collecting and cataloguing a complete Watchtower library dating back to 1872, and spending the past several years of my life and my own hard-earned money tracking down all of the Watchotwer Writing Department's available "source" materials? WITNESSES DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT THE TRUTH BECAUSE THEY ARE SPOON-FED LIES FROM THE PIT. (not yelling, only emphasizing...).
For example, look at pp 5-7 of the "Trinity" booklet. They have seven quotes allegedly taken from the Early Fathers of the Church, like Tertullian (who definitely *did* teach the Trinity--that's what his treatise "Against Praxeas" is all about), Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Origen, etc.
What the Society *doesn't* provide is the actual location of these particular quotes. Why? Because in reality they come from the 1869 edition of Alvan Lamson's angry Little *Unitarian* book "The Church of the First Three Centuries." They also have one other quote in the same booklet allegedly from the the 1860 ed of the same book--but it's not there. (One might ask, if Lamson's treatise was so wonderful or honest, why has the Unitarian Association in Boston, which hold the copyright, ever republished it?)
People might think twice about the Society's claims if they realised that the Fathers did *not* say any of the things that Lamson and the Watchtower Society claim they did. It's all dishonest propaganda--and I've got all the books, periodicals and certified copies to prove it. Marks of ellipsis [...] and paraphrase are the Watchtower's best friends because in using them they can twist the meaning of anything to fit their designs.
Truth? Truth is relative to JW's...and don't even get me started on the Rahab Doctrine that y'all love so much.
Luvliberty/marilyn_m: Praise GOD for both of you.
Ball_of_fluff: This is one thing that is hard to convery to a teenager--why investigate doctrine if the people make you feel good? It won't be until the warm fuzzies fade and cold, hard reality sets in that most teens ever explore the logistics of a religious organisation. We knew *everything* when we were 18, remember???
In His Grace, miki |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
New member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.146.118.217
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 3:44 am: |
|
I just want to say one last thing before I take my leave of this thread and go look around the rest of this site.
Curiosity: Keep in mind that in 1933 when Hitler overtly started his rampage against Judaism (primarily) and Christianity, he was not only very sincere and earnest, but he had a very slick sales pitch that got him elected Chancellor of Germany by a wide margin. Many, many people followed him. Some out of fear, some out of desperation--others because they, too, *sincerely* believed what he stood for--including the Watchtower Society (I have the documents to prove it) then led by Joseph F Rutherford. Despite all of the Watchtower's current efforts to deny this truth and cast blame on others instead, it remains, nonetheless, an irrefutable historically verifiable fact. (When you go to the KH, see if you can find a 1934 Yearbook in the library, and you'll see what I mean...)
But what has history shown us?...That for all of Hitler's sincerity and earnestness, he was sincerely WRONG and most earnestly a mass murderer!
Keep this in mind as you study the mercurial and unpredictable doctrines of the Watchtower--if you stay in it long enough I can guarantee you that what you are taught to believe today will not be the same as what you'll be taught 20 years hence...In the WTS, "Jehovah" always changes...
I'll be praying for you.
In His Grace, miki |
calebshanks (calebshanks)
New member
Username: calebshanks
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 203.144.21.75
| | Posted on Friday, July 29, 2005 - 9:24 pm: |
|
Hmmmm, I found this thread quite interesting as I sit next to a JW at work and have known her for the past four years. Nice enough girl, however, her continual comments on ‘the truth’ has lead me to read as much material as possible on this group of people.
I must admit I was specifically looking for material written by converted JW’s as I find the whole “Watchtower” idea a little hard to swallow.
Pointlessshrew: I believe your educated thoughts are spot on. The one thing I found particularly interesting was the comments about Mental Health. The young JW who sits next to me had an unfortunate scare late last year. Her mother (also a JW) was admitted to the hospital and quickly transferred to the mental ward because she was trying to kill herself. Coincidence? Perhaps, perhaps not? The mother continues to suffer from severe depression and from what I can gather doesn’t leave the house very often (sleeps a lot). All family members are un-employed with the exception of the girl I work with. She pays the mortgage, rates, and even does the family shopping, cooking and cleaning at the ripe old age of 22. I understand this may not be a direct result of being a JW, however, this can’t be normal can it? The poor girl is drained and constantly scratches her neck and arms – we call it her ‘stress’ rash – and this is ‘the truth’.
Having said all that, in this day and age I guess it’s pretty hard to define what is ‘normal’ or ‘right’ as it’s up to the individual. I am worried about my little friend more than anything, but she’s doing what she feels is right for her. If I tried to talk her out of being a JW, wouldn’t I be performing my own version of ‘mind control’?
I’ve thought about this deeply for some time now and I truly believe the only person I can control is myself. Should people decide to be a JW, a Christian, a Catholic, a Buddhist, a Mormon or whatever, what gives anybody else the right (as we’re all equal human beings) to judge that decision? Sure, it annoys me when my little work mate get’s huffy at Christmas time (as they don’t believe in Christmas), but who am I to tell her what she should & shouldn’t believe in?
I don’t accept any literature from the JW’s and that’s my decision.
The JW’s don’t accept blood transfusions and that’s their decision. So be it.
Best of luck to us all, I say. |
pointlessshrew (pointlessshrew)
New member
Username: pointlessshrew
Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 172.151.129.207
| | Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2005 - 4:00 am: |
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I say you *should* accept the literature every time you see a Witness--even if it's only to destroy it. Even when I don't have time to talk to them, if I see them on the street, I innocently ask, "Are you a Jehovah's Witness?" When they say yes, I tell them that I don't have time to talk, but I'd like to "see" (notice I didn't say read) their literature--I get them to give me all the magazines, booklets and tracts I can--sometimes I even convince them to fork over their personal NWT bibles. When I get home, if I don't already have these pieces in my personal library, I shred them. That's one less vunerable person who will get the literature that day that could entrap them.
As for your friend, it's an interesting phemonenon that as often as the Watchtower Society *tells* publishers how happy that Jehovah's Witnesses are in the literature, the reality is quite different. The rate of mental illness and appeals for Social Security disability benefits on the basis of mental disease in the US is far above the national average with Jehovah's Witnesses--a fact that has not gone unnoticed by governemental agencies and watchdog groups.
In my own work, when I get a call from a cult-exit counselor asking for a consult on a case (I used to work long ago as a state mental health advocate--that's where my original experience came from) I usually end up having to meet a Witness and their family in a locked ward. Very often the stress of Witness culture drives people to the very edge. There's only so many times you can be beaten down in meetings by elders, letters from Bethel and literature; ordered to do more, study more, be "better", before you start to think that you'll never be good enough. The facade of others' growing "holiness" can be devastatingly decieving--especially if the elders of the congregation use it as a leverage weapon against individual "weak" ones...
I've also found that even many seemingly-healthy Witnesses are terrified that because of their own personal failings they might be "annihilated" at Armageddon with all the opposers and "evil" apostates. And while the "Pay Attention" book (p93) advises elders to deal "compassionately" with attempted suicides, I have actually observed elders upbraid and harrass hospitalized Witnesses for bringing "uncleanness" and embarrassment to the Society/congregation.
The very best apologist I know as regards Witnesses is a third generation Witness-turned-Catholic named Mary Kochan (pronounced ko-hahn). She has an excellent tape series put out by St Joseph Communications that addresses many of the issues you bring up, and she has a technique for talk with Witnesses that is posh. She also speaks at the international cult researchers convention in Atlanta, nearly every year, and is a wealth of information on culture and indoctrination practises.
The key here is to ask questions--not for your benefit, but to get the critical thinking wheels spinning again in your friend's head.
When I personally work with Witnesses, I use Society documents regarding the UN, WWII, and the Sociey's claim to being GOD's sole "mouthpiece and prophet" and ask them to explain these things as they pertain to GOD.
It's an art, but it can be developed--with practise, time and patience, release will come. Best of luck is right! Good luck to you, Calebshanks.
In His Grace, miki |
inkorrekt
Advanced Member
Username: inkorrekt
Post Number: 837
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 132.194.83.60
| | Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 9:29 pm: |
|
CURIOSITY 18:
I feel sorry for you. JW's are wonderful poeople. They obey the book entirely. However, their God is impersonal cruel God who will punish them.Fear is the only motivation for them, They do no believe in the divine nature of Jesus Christ. They have misinterpreted the scriptures. 66 prophecies concerning Lord Jesus Christ in the old testament have been fulfilled 100 %. However, The President of watch tower society Russel predicted that the world was coming to an end. When nothing happened JW began changing the dates. We are still here. They do not believe in Trinity. They also do not believe in hell. Revelations describes this. Fist of all, if tyou had a personal relation with Jesus Christ, you would never speak highly of JW's. Be careful. It will be all wonderful. Now, you are entering a mighty fortress which only has one door to let people in. Once you are there, you are a prisoner for life. Mark my word. You are entering a dangerous territory. For the sake of your faith and the Gospel, you CAN NEVER BE UNEQUALLY YOKED. YOU MUST TRY TO SHOW YOUR FIANCEE THAT JEHOVAH IS JESUS CHRIST AND THAT EVERY JW MUST ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOUR.
IF HE DOES NOT, PLEASE BREAK UP WITH HIM. OTHERWISE, YOU WILL REGRET YOUR CHOICE FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.JESUS CHRIST WILL JUDGE YOU BOTH. ALL YOUR GOOD WORK WILL NOT RESCUE YOU. JESUS WILL STILL REJECT YOU.
RUN BABY, RUN!!!!!!! ON THE HOME PAGE, THERE IS A BOO, BY THE NAME, CUCCOON. THIS IS WRITTEN BY AN EX JW. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 793
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 71.82.80.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 10:54 pm: |
|
YOU MUST TRY TO SHOW YOUR FIANCEE THAT JEHOVAH IS JESUS CHRIST AND THAT EVERY JW MUST ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOUR.
You have a good post, inkorrekt, but Jehovah is not Jesus. Jehovah is the Father.
As a ex-JW, I spent years, and I mean years, researching the trinity. In college I conducted an extensive research assignment of the subject, and here is my conclusion from a textual and historical critique:
I believe in the trinity which simply means "three in unity" The scriptures plainly teach a seperation of each, yet in many passages shows their equality. One must keep in mind that "trinity" is merely a theological, not biblical term, to describe the three. You can not have a true trinity if there is only one individual who maifests into three. That is oneness.
From the whole of the text, it can be concluded that the unity is something that can not be fully understood, yet the individuality is evident.
Yes, everyone must accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Jesus brings us into a right relationship with the Father, Jehovah. The Holy Spirit regenerates us and baptizes us into the family of God.
Jesus returned to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is the Father, then he returned to himself in order to send himself. That is not logical or biblical. |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 43
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 3:20 pm: |
|
inkorrekt:
(And in support of Bear)[Part 1]
Regardless of what you believe, presented here are some things to think about:
1. The temptation by the Devil to Jesus would have no meaning if the Devil (a renegade son of God—I trust no one will argue this unless you believe God and Satan are the same—and this is another subject) as you cannot tempt God, but you would be able to temp someone who is not God, like one of his Sons.
2. In Matthew 8:28-29, in when Jesus is confronted by demons who possessed two men, how did these rebellious angels, demons identify Jesus? Note: “When he got to the other side, into the country of the Gad•a•renes, there met him two demon-possessed men coming out from among the memorial tombs, unusually fierce, so that nobody had the courage to pass by on that road. And, look! they screamed, saying: “What have we to do with you, Son of God? Did you come here to torment us before the appointed time?” So who did the Angel-Demons think Jesus was?
3. In John 20: 17, who was Jesus referring to when he mentions his God and our God when it reads, “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.” The bible says Jesus left us model for us to closely follow so, again who is this God of and Father of Jesus?
4. In the account about Stephen in Acts where he is getting stoned to death, (NOTE: after Jesus went to Heaven) please note what he says in Acts 7 verses 55 and 56, “But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.” Who was Jesus standing next to?
5. In 1 Corinthians 11: 3 (Written after Jesus Christ went to Heaven) it states, “But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” Since we can understand the man and woman situation (whether you agree with these words or not) there is a clear and unambiguous analogy, comparison with the human relationship of a man and a woman to Jesus and his Head, God so the question is: Who Jesus’ Head and God?
6. Again in 1 Corinthians 15: 24-28, which again was written after Jesus went back to Heaven where it states: “Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.” So the question is: Who is the God and Father of Jesus?
7. In 1 Thessalonians 4: 16, also written after Jesus went to heaven, whether you like it or not, the scriptures say with some variations; “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” It is the Bible that compares Jesus to a certain type of angel, when it states, Jesus, calls or shouts with the “voice of an archangel”. If Jesus is God why is he compared to an archangel? This leads me to the next and final matters for your consideration below.
Continued: |
praetorian
Junior Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 3:21 pm: |
|
Continued-Part 2
8. And I warn you in advance, you are not gonna like this one: In Hebrews Chapter 1, verses 1-14, the entire chapter, again this was written after Jesus was resurrected and went back to heaven; Jesus is clearly compared to an “Angel”, many times, first in verse 3, as it also says he has “sat down at the right hand” of God, and then note verse 4, with some variations, again after he went to heaven, “So he has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs”; stop here” If he has “become” better than the angels, and inherited this after going to heaven, who gave him the inheritance? And what was Jesus before he became better than the angels? Also, if Jesus is God, why is he being compared with Angels period again after he went back to heaven?
9. Continuing in Hebrews, verse 5, and 6, again Jesus is in heaven and the account goes on with some variations, “For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”? But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” It is clear Jesus is compared to Angels please read this as for space’s sake I did place the entire text in this posting.” Now if this is not Jesus that is compared to Angels here, then who is it? Is it God who is being compared to Angels?
Please feel free to read the entire Chapter of Hebrews Chapter 1 in any bible transaction or version and it becomes crystal clear that Jesus is compared to Angels, something God cannot be as he created all things including the Angels.
In the end, to accept the concept of the Trinity, one has to deal with many things including but not limited to three things that are quite clear: 1. The word or phrase Trinity is not contained in the Bible and to make it fit a phrase, would be like the King James writers did when they translated the phrase “Angel of Light” to Lucifer, when no such a NAME appears in Bible manuscripts. In fact this is a method employed by Muslims to show that the prophet Muhammad (Do the research on this) is “named” in the bible by using phrases, that his name apparently means; 2. The Trinity has a factual, historical usage in pagan worship that cannot be ignored or denied before Jesus came to earth and 3: The Trinity has problems in the form of obviously conflict and confusion when compared to many scriptures as demonstrated briefly above.
Again, something to think about! |
inkorrekt
Advanced Member
Username: inkorrekt
Post Number: 861
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 71.33.139.244
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2007 - 3:09 am: |
|
BEAR: Jehovah is the Father. Right on. In John, Jesus said," I and my father are one" This shows the triune God( God the father, God, the son and God the holy spirit) |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 807
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 71.82.80.189
| | Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 6:29 pm: |
|
inkorrect,
Yes, it does say that. In light of the whole of scripture, though, we understand that he is one in purpose and unity; a perfect unity. Not one in person.
That is my only point. The word trinity is not found in the text at all. There is nothing sacred or holy about the trinity. It is merely a theological term used to describe God. it simply mean "three in unity".
You can not have a trinity if there is only one person who manifests into three, e.g., Water = liquid steam and solid. That is an example on "oneness" not a trinity. |
praetorian
Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 54
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 9:12 pm: |
|
inkorrekt:
Have you read the entire text of John Chapter 10. If you do, right after Jesus says this, (that Jesus and God are one) in verse 31 (honestly and at best this would be a duo not tri-unity) to the end of the chapter, you see that the Jews try to Jesus for saying this, for blasphemy. Jesus he had a perfect opportunity to say something like, I am Him, God in Human form etc. You will be surprised at Jesus’ reply when you actually read it through!
You need to get the book Truth in Translation : Accuracy and Bias in English Translations of the New Testament by Jason Beduhn (Professor of Greek) and you will see, that the Holy Writings make crystal clear, that Jesus is not the same as God.
1 Timothy 2:5 says, (written WELL AFTER JESUS went back to heaven) “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.” Why not just say, Jesus after going to back to heaven , went back to being God, or the God Head. There is nothing like this in the bible try and fit what you may, other than people’s stories, that are being held on to and relied upon.
In the end, believing in this places you in opposition to many scriptures, that have to be explained away by accepting something outside the bible, to make it fit! |
inkorrekt
Advanced Member
Username: inkorrekt
Post Number: 869
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 130.253.32.155
| | Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 11:36 pm: |
|
So, I am accepting something outside the bible. What about you? You deny the truth within the Bible. Of Course, your Bible is only written for 144,000. Is heaven only a small town accomodating only 144,000 people? You deny the existence of hell as described in the last chapter of revelation. |
praetorian
Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 57
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 6:47 pm: |
|
Part 1
I appreciate the manner in which you posted this as opposed to your other post with oneway.
As to my statement, that you are accepting something outside the bible, is, in all fairness fact, as what you believe in, is not directly found in the bible, without someone pointing to something and then interpreting it to fit in, outside of the bible. In conjunction with that you cannot deny the historicity of, and the use and belief in the Trinity in “several” pagan cultures, so again, you would have to accept something that is not only outside the bible, but that is hard core in pagan culture for thousands of years, in your worship of God.
Now onto me, you ask, “What about you?” What about me? You leave this question hanging. Now you go on to take another assumptive position, about my denying “truth” in the bible but leaving it as a statement alone, hanging. You then further take another assumptive position when you state “…your Bible…” First, you do know what Bible translation I use so let me respond, since you assumed. I use several Bible “versions (I can’t use the word “translation” because you believe it is code or something that I am secretly giving off) but primarily use one that is published by Hendrickson.
Now regardless of what ever bible you use, you will note in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14 the use of “hundred and forty four thousand”. In Revelation 7:4, it is clearly used to distinguish these numbered ones, from the ones not numbered, mentioned in verse 9. Why are there distinguished?
Now while you did not mention this, I wish to introduce here, for discussion purposes (before I go to your Hell comments) when the Apostles mention that they will rule as “kings” (As in Romans 5:17, 1 Corinthians 4:8, 2 Timothy 2:12), who will they rule over? When you have a King, or Ruler, (In his case more than one “Kings) you must have someone to rule over, or you have no kingdom or government, meaning it is worthless. The Bible, more to the point the Apostles, wrote about them being “Kings”, so the questions is, how many kings are there, or will there be? How many subjects are there as compared to Kings. It stands to reason that the subjects are greater in number than those ruling over them so, how many? |
praetorian
Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 58
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 6:55 pm: |
|
Part 2
In line with this, as the above cannot be denied or you simply deny truth in the Bible (Any Bible) when it speaks of both Kings and Priests, in Revelation 5:10, who are these and how many are there? And since this verse says they will be Kings and Priests over the Earth, who are those on earth that they will be ruling over? Also in Revelation 20:6, again mentioning Kings and Priests over the earth? Who will they be ruling over here in earth?
Now the above is factually stated in any Bible, and therefore if you are unable to answer these questions, then why do you criticize me or anyone else? Does that make sense? If it does to you, then at the very least, you must see that it is unfair to do so without having an answer in return!
As to hell; Let me please say this, that If I wrote you a very long letter (kinda like this reply—lol—you have to have a sense of humor) in another language, and for example’s sake, we will use Greek, and I use a particular word over 100 times, for automobile (stay with me it would be in Greek) and you went to a lexicon 100 times you would find the word means, “automobile”. Now one time, in the story, I tell you that the automobile became angry and took on wings and flew etc, etc in effect personifying the automobile and attributing to it characteristics that had nothing to do with the automobile itself, like actually truly becoming getting angry and flying etc; Would you conclude, that in this case the automobile actually did in fact do so? Of course not!
So too with the original words, that correspond to Hell in English. You know the Bible was originally written in Hebrew (some parts Aramaic) and Greek and that those words have (as in our language) a set and specific meaning! Just because the word Hell may be used in one or a few places to express something different than the actual meaning itself, does not mean that the word itself has some how gone through a definition change in these instances, the meaning remains the same!
Regards,
Praetorian |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 69
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.81.45
| | Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 8:52 pm: |
|
praetorian, in post number 3 of your posts above, you claim to be a "disfellowshipped jw"........ now, was that a theocratic lie?
you know, jw theocratic warfare lie? |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 236
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 7:36 pm: |
|
Crawly:
Since you are good at repeating things I thought I would repeat a little ditty, where in I provide my “Two Cents” that I have done here before as it well applies to “ALL” of your posts and trust you will agree with some or part of it and if not, oh well, it is what it is!
One Penny: A kind woman who was known for never having anything bad about anyone, was approached by a person who said, ‘I know someone you cannot say anything good about’…..After a moment, she said, then I don’t want to know, and immediately the person said, ‘Satan The Devil’……And the women thought for a moment and said……’He’s a hard worker!’
Second Penny: If the general consensus is Christians believe that all or most roads lead you to God, and JW’s do not, then ponder; Under the belief systems of general Christians, JW’s are saved! Good and Bad are found in and among all people and belief systems, Christ himself had his own bad egg, Judas Iscariot, but that does not did not make Christ wrong or bad! If Judas had written a book entitled “Proof Jesus is not the Messiah, from a man who knows”, I can tell you that none of the other apostles or those that new Jesus and believed in him, would have bought or started to re-think what they knew of Jesus, as is suggested by the people of this board.
I close my comments by quoting the words of a non Christian, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, in Acts 5: 38 and 39, “And so, under the present circumstances, I say to YOU, Do no meddle with this men, but let them alone (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown, but if it is from God, YOU will not be able to overthrow them) otherwise, YOU may perhaps be found fighters against God.”
P
P.S. I am impressed you actually read and stated something different. Sadly we share that in common! It made you what you are, a very hateful and drinking person. |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 96
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.253.69
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 8:21 am: |
|
notice that preatorian didn't answer the question about him claiming to be a disfellowshipped jw in his no. 3 post.
instead he posted fluff, and then at the bottom called me names........ those are jw cult tactics.
jws only pretend to be honest. |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 98
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.30.107
| | Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 6:32 pm: |
|
lets make sure this is clear, praetorian-jw,....now, you claim to be a disfellowshipped jw in your post number 3, correct?
so in the rest of your posts where you claim to not be a jw,....... which one is more true?
let us narrow it down a bit. |
inkorrekt
Intermediate Member
Username: inkorrekt
Post Number: 172
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 65.100.179.215
| | Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 2:43 am: |
|
Praetorian is a JW theologian in disguise. He cannot and will not answer any question. But, write very very long BORING epistles meaning nothing. This is the mark of an ACTIVE JW. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 240
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 70.89.75.242
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 12:13 pm: |
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Crawly/inkorrekt/Crawly:
I have addressed your posts, and you ignore them, by instead posting repeat attacks. There is nothing further to express to you, as whatever I say, will not be respected but will be twisted to fit into your own agenda.
If you ever want sincere responses, to questions, without your attacks, feel free to reach out to me.
My postings speak for themselves.
inkorrekt:
I have replied to every query you posted, and all you do, is ignore the responses, repeat former posting themes (uhmmmm… not much different than Craw) and then accuse me of not responding.
You should at least let the folks know you are a former ,defunct Catholic Pedophile, as at the very least this would be a sign of your honesty.
Oh and Crawly, get another drink!
P |
crawly
Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 99
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.255.48
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 11:09 am: |
|
notice how praeatorian didn't answer my question, but instead claimed he answered all the questions and now must move on.
that is a jw cult tactic that they use to avoid answering questions that would expose them as liars.
in post no. 3 of preatorians posts up above, he claims to be a disfellowshipped jehovah's witness, yet in various other threads he claims not to be a jw.
you see, jws think they can bring you to a knowledge of the truth, by telling lies.
for some reason they don't consider lying a problem as they explain to you how they are god's appointed organization...
jesus warned about those wolves in matt 24;24
he said they would tell lies and say christ already came, and so now you must follow them or die........ that is exactly what the jw organization is doing. |
praetorian
Intermediate Member
Username: praetorian
Post Number: 274
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 71.226.54.24
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 7:51 pm: |
|
Craw:
If you are DF'd you are not a JW, mighty brilliant one! You too should feel free to read between the lines as there is nothing further I can express to you!
P |
crawly
Intermediate Member
Username: crawly
Post Number: 101
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 4.240.81.238
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 8:23 pm: |
|
looks like we are making a little progress, folks.
now praetorian is admitting to being a disfellowshipped jw, who is promoting jw doctrine where as before he was pretending to not ever have been a jw.
so, you are here to promote all the jw lies, yet at the same time you yourself don't care to be one?
isn't that hypocrisy?........ wait, of course you are teaching hypocrisy......... false prophets are hypocrite wolfs in sheeps clothing... matt 24;24 |
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