| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
Because of the relationship between an instructor and his students, does there exist the potential for mind control and physical and emotional abuse? | ||
| Anonymous |
In my opinion there is the potential for mind control. I know of a martial arts school. I call it a cult. The instructors are to be respected above all else. You are not to question them or talk back no matter what they say. The students are not allowed to socialize or even speak to each other outside of the school. How can a school dictate who you can and cannot speak to? I think they realize if people began to compare notes they would understand what a controlling group they have gotten into and leave. You are not even allowed to be late. No matter what the circumstance is. They are taught tardiness is a sign of not really caring. They are told you CAN'T be late. It doesn't matter that you had a flat tire or your kid was hit by a bus. You are expected to attend all of the classes. If on one day your performance is poor and you tell them you are not feeling well, they will tell you not to whine and you need to try harder. I know of someone who has experiennced this. | ||
| Anonymous |
In my opinion there is the potential for mind control. I know of a martial arts school. I call it a cult. The instructors are to be respected above all else. You are not to question them or talk back no matter what they say. The students are not allowed to socialize or even speak to each other outside of the school. How can a school dictate who you can and cannot speak to? I think they realize if people began to compare notes they would understand what a controlling group they have gotten into and leave. You are not even allowed to be late. No matter what the circumstance is. They are taught tardiness is a sign of not really caring. They are told you CAN'T be late. It doesn't matter that you had a flat tire or your kid was hit by a bus. You are expected to attend all of the classes. If on one day your performance is poor and you tell them you are not feeling well, they will tell you not to whine and you need to try harder. I know of someone who has experienced this. | ||
| Anonymous |
Well, if your life outside of the school is controlled, then I would say it is a cult...It almost sounds like military basic training....no whining, try harder, no excuses..... | ||
| Not the Red Baron |
I've always sat in on a class before joining any dojo or training center. I even left an aikido dojo after joining, after learning more about the teaching style of the sensei. However, I would say that we're going down a slippery slope when we generalize. | ||
| Anonymous |
I would like to sit in on a class as you suggested, as I am interested in learning self-defense, but one school I was interested in wouldn't even let me do that....said I had to join. | ||
| Anonymous |
There are a hell of a lot of scummy dojos out there. Most I would compare more to multi-level marketing scams than destructive cults- you are fleeced for as much money as possible over as much time as possible, you are rewarded for recruiting new members, and when you reach the top you start fleecing the newbies. There is definitely influence on dojo-external behavior in almost every martial arts school, but it's more of a use-ethics creed than anything else. Contact restrictions and so on aren't normal in my experience and should be seen as a bright red flag. If you can't sit in on a class, just don't join it. That's another red flag. If you can sit in, try and make beginner, intermediate and advanced classes and determine for yourself whether the training looks effective or worthwhile. | ||
| Anonymous |
Some schools play on American ignorance of Asian culture, and are able to lure vulnerable people in by promising to teach them the "secrets" of the masters. There are no secrets, and you are your own master, if you would only wake up and realize that. In the meantime, before that happens, you are fleeced of your money and your persona is screwed up, and it's a long road back to normalcy. | ||
| Anonymous |
I pulled my son out of a martial art school because his instructor was too intimidating. I also felt the instructor exerted control over him even outside of the school, and a nine year old shouldn't have to feel like he was in basic training, being yelled at and otherwise humiliated. My son and I discussed the situation and he shared his feelings with me, and felt good about leaving that school. Since that time, we have become closer, and I know I made the right decision. I don't know if all schools are the same, but I won't stop my son from going to a school in which he will feel comfortable and not have his self-respect shattered by some petty dictator. | ||
| Anonymous |
Karate Schools are the ultmate, perfect environment for a mind control cult. You have signed away your legal rights and they can punish you, hit you, anything they want. If you object, you aren't a good student. I've been in one, all the way up to instructor. If zen is involved, the situation involves "Destroying te ego" and the good student cooperates, even as he is insulted into mind destruction. Not thinking is good in zen. "No mind" is good in zen. uh... who then, is doing the thinking? Not the mind-destroyed student. Of course everyone can't expect to be such an excellent student that they actually get their mind destroyed and experience "enlightenment." I did! the enlightenment part was ok, but it wasn't worth it because the resulting stress ruined my life for years afterword. Other than ruining my life completely, the experience was fine. My instructor really didn't care what it was doing to me. He had nothing else to teach and refused to communicate verbally. I was eventually saved from the situation when I drifted so deep into the horrors of homelessnss that I couldn't make it to class anymore. there is no place in the modern world for karate... Unless you expect/intend to be homeless. then it might help for a few seconds. | ||
| Anonymous |
The Martial Arts School I spent the past four years supporting definately uses coercive persuasion to manipulate and control its patrons. It saddens me to see vulnerable young people being controlled and manipulated without their conscious awareness. These tactics and practices shame the martial arts. The individuals who practice these tactics have no authentic understanding of the essence of the power of martial arts. Genuine enlightement can not promote nor participate in the exploitation or destruction of the weak and vulnerable. Unfortunately, the school I was involved with has leaders who are more concerned about inflating their own ego's than genuinely helping others. This truely is a dangerous situation with the potential to cause severe and long standing trauma to niave, inexperienced, weak, help seeking people. (this would describe the majority of the people who search out martial training) To genuinely teach people to become strong within their own right one must first have walked the path and have become strong in their own right. It is a painful and difficult path. It is the path to self discovery. When one has reached this enlightenment, great compassion for humanity can not be avoided. The authentic teacher will present him or herself as a supporter. They will not attempt to induce more suffering because they are aware that suffering is innate to life. An authentic teacher will encourage the process; will know when to push and when to be absent. An authentic teacher can not place themselves above their students because an authentic teacher knows this to be false. An authentic teachers presence is just that - AUTHENIC. There is a difference, and it is not as sutle as we may think. We just need to listen to our inner knowing. Good luck to you in all your endeavors. May you find what you are looking for. It is there, it never leaves. Open your eyes. | ||
| Anonymous |
Anonymous 10:29 - I don't know which school did a number on you, but it sounds very similar to my experience. Since we are both posting anonymously, could you clue me in to the style, or the state in which this school is located? | ||
| nothing special |
i believe martial arts to be about finding the path... if one's path leads one to leave the training prior to completion, it is nothing more than a formality in the perceived, and at times, synthetic, existence of energy, and will... try to stay away from the "institutes" or diploma-mills that have ty-dye uniforms and classes of masses of little kids kicking the holy hell out of one another... it can be a sign of a school with open doors to entertain the laws of supply and demand... appearances can be decieving... try to find a school with no hidden testing fees, fine print, too many junior instructors, with no premeditated or preconceived absolutes of why you ought to attend(must attend)/what it is you ought to (must) get out of attending... the dojo i myself spent a fair number of years attending, sometimes, at the propieter's/owner's/head sensei's discretion allowed destitute individuals or individuals facing hard times to train/attend class free of charge or in exchange for helping keeping the training area clean... and perhaps, the "more defensive oriented" martial arts (aikido, judo, and to an extent, ju-jitsu, and kung-fu) may be better or more appropriate for those seeking [to study] knowledge and understanding of technique (both in philosophical and physical terms/planes) than the "typical school of hard knocks" where the discipline and instruction take center stage... | ||
| Anonymous |
Imagine a business with a big sign that proudly said "SADISM-MASSOCHISM TAUGHT HERE!" Now imagine the people inside, reverently wearing monklike robes with rank signifying how proficient they are at harming other people. Their sacred mission is to pass this art of abuse to others (Just as all good/true sexual abusers do). The ritual includes defering submissively to anyone with higher rank, especially those within the school, and absolutely to the chief instructor (Shihan). Does this image fit into any realistic modern situation? It does if you replace the sign with one that says "KARATE." It reminds me of a health-food store I explored once. I read the labels and they said "There are no side effects because this is not a drug!" Holy shit. They were selling herbs that were powerful enough to kill a horse if you fed it enough. Of course there were "no documented side-effects" because the Food an drug admisnistration never imagined anyone would take this manure for a therapeutic purpose. So they never tested it. In the meantime millions of people took the drug and permanently damaged their hearts and livers because of what the label said. It reminds me of KARATE. It is mislabled as something beneficial. In a way... it agrandizes the ASSHOLES who call themselves masters of KARATE/SADO-MASOCHISM. It allows them to surround themselves with the equivalent of a GANG of brutal assasins who would kill for them. (But of course they think of themselves as philosophical explorers of the esoteric mysteries of the oriental good-things etc. etc.) Just one last question... Who really wants to associate with someone who just spent THIRTY YEARS learning to hurt human beings? I know, I know. It was all directed toward self-defense. Of course! All the people he harmed had it coming, including you. OK, lets "buy" that for a second. But wait, is there really a "thing" called "unarmed combat" in a modern world where guns and knives exist? Then why are you wasting time on it? Are you planning to use this "defensive training" in a life or death situation? Then Get a Gun! If it is really justified, then you have nothing to worry about in court. Now you can save thirty years of useless pain, and get on with life. Half the joy of life is destroyed by assholes, who tend to flock to martial arts schools as if they are asshole-magnets. I know what I'm talking about because I was taught by an "instructor" so competent that I cannot imagine a greater one. I'm certain he would feel validated by that statement, despite the fact that I have damned him with every second I survive on earth for the last thirty years. | ||
| Anonymous |
I am glad someone has the courage to speak up against the abuses imposed by these self-described "masters" within the confines of martial arts schools. My observations at tournaments has been that sparring is an outlet for contenders to kick the shit out of each other, all in the name of karate, thinly veiled with a bit of buddhism to justify such sado-masochism. The world is full of violence already - terrorism, assassinations, kidnapings, etc. Why add fuel to the fire by promoting something that only justifies physical force in order to do harm to another. If martial arts were what it was originally in Asia, there would be more philosophy, emphasis on self-control, respect for one another, and the teaching of means other than physical to defuse dangerous situations. Karate schools have been turned into greedy money establishments, with egotistical instructors bent on self- aggrandisement to the detriment of their students | ||
| Anonymous |
I personally employed brutal physical abuse against dozens of my own students. I did so because I thought it was what my instructor wanted. He was watching every minute and I was acutely sensitive to his direction, because I was vulnerable to being abused by him. I listened to everything hee sais as well as subtle cues to avoid being abused by him. I was young. I feel remorse about what I did. He does not. He has gone on...and on. When I was in the school I was the enemy of anyone who spoke against him. I had no personal agenda. I was selfless, I had no real personal enemies, I was just "on his side." My instructor was was highly ranked and highly regarded by his peers then and now. He is the epitome of the art. The art of prepetuating abuse over generations. Karate. | ||
| Anonymous |
Finding an authentic master will not save you from abuse. It will just guarantee you that your abuser uses unaltered, traditional forms of abuse. I have no problems at all with my ex-instuctor's authenticity or competance. I have problems with the forms of abuse he practices on his students. I see absolutely no way to avoid that sort of abuse from any karate instructor, traditional or otherwise. It might be possible to avoid abuse from a crippled, harmless and innefective instructor. | ||
| Anonymous |
>>>>>It might be possible to avoid abuse from a crippled, harmless and ineffective instructor.<<<<< Not necessarily - if the instructor has psychological power over his subordinates, then they will carry out his wishes. As a parallel, the cult in Japan that is now on trial (Aleph) - headed by a blind man, was very effective in producing sarin gas, killing people in the Tokyo subways, and keeping their followers in virtual isolation, blind obedience, and submission to their leader. In this same fashion, even an aged martial arts master can exert power over his students... | ||
| Anonymous |
You are absolutely correct. I feared the emotional (I guess you'd call it that) abuse most. I was sort of being sarcastic when I made the remark about crippled instructors but you made a good point. That's how my instructor got away with it. It's kind of difficult to get someone to stop screwing with you when you can't quite put your finger on how they're doing it. | ||
| Anonymous |
it is obvious that either none of you have the slightest clue what you are talking about or you have all been taught martial arts by total idiots. i have trained for several years in taekwondo and more recently in judo (which by the way is NOT a defensive martial art as one of you had decided)i have NEVER experienced anything like you have described even though i have had several different trainers in both martial arts. yes, there is critisism but this is only designed to firstly improve your technique and secondly to increase your mental strength. obedience to the instructor is VITAL because, believe it or not, they know what they are doing and they also know that if practiced improperly the techniques used could damage both the performer of the technique and the target. another problem you seem to have is with the violent nature of the sport. wake up people they are combat sports not really any different to boxing. in the competitions i have fought in i have kicked people over, out of rings, bruised people and had the same done to me. why is this negative? afterwards everything becomes friendly again win or lose. would you rather that people with an inclination towards such behaviour took it out on random members of the public or on like-minded individuals in a controlled environment? another decision which you have made is that these sports are of no use outside of training and competition because "guns and knives exist" well, i have been in many situations where i have been glad of my training, most did not even become physical because i have the self confidence to deal with the belligerent in ways that don't resort to violence- thanks to my training. in the minority of cases where a situation HAS become physical, never initiated by myself i hasten to add, i have been able to bring an end to the situation quickly and without inflicting injury on anyone. the thing to remember is that while guns and knives DO indeed exist and people sometimes even use them on each other most of the time if someone feels like attacking you they will simply punch you. due to the conditioning of my body their inefficient blows mean nothing and if retaliation is necessary in order to remove myself from a hostile situation a simple blow to the stomach or the application of a joint lock is generally enough. if i didn't have the avenue of martial arts/combat sports in order to release my aggression in a controlled environment and to teach me self control and confidence any hostile situation would be far more likely to result in injury to either myself or another. if any of you disagree with my position (and judging by the drivel many of you have posted before me you will) please do not hesitate to e-mail me with your points on satan_ate_my_socks@hotmail.com the important thing to remember when selecting a martial arts school is to RESEARCH BOTH THE INSTRUCTOR AND ANY ORGANISATION WHICH HE/SHE IS AFFILIATED TO. | ||
| Anonymous |
PS some of you have referred to what martial arts were originally intended to be in asia. you don't know what you're talking aabout. they were no more established to create peace than nuclear weapons were. martial arts were originally designed to do one thing and one thing only KILL PEOPLE. it is only in recent years that the concept of not killing each other in martial arts competition has become popular. please RESEARCH AND THINK BEFORE YOU MOUTH OFF. | ||
| Anonymous |
Anonymous 0249 - It seems to me you have forgotten the respect toward others that was part of your training - "mouth off"? No, the poster was expressing their opinion, and you are attacking them for that. "drivel" - as you term it, seems to be any comment that casts aspersions on martial arts. if you think that kicking people out of the ring is a good thing, then you and your ilk are welcome to do so. I however would like to work toward a more peaceful world, one where knives and guns are not used to inflict injury, any more than kicking and punching, even in so called friendly competition. It's too bad that people have the kind of aggressive tendencies that need an outlet in the use of physical force, but I guess that's something endemic in human nature. | ||
| Anonymous |
To: satan_ate_my_socks@hotmail.com An "Ad homnium" attack. The tone and content attacks the person, rather than the issues. It seems to invite conflict. The sort of feelings expressed here lead to the practice, if not the abuse of fighting technique. A person with this sort of anger should look at its source. Is there a history of abuse? As for researching, perhaps you mean "research until you agree with me." | ||
| Anonymous |
as for researching i mean look into any martial arts school you are interested in to ensure that the teaching style is as you would like it. i am not intentionally attacking any individuals, merely the generalisations they are making. martial arts competition is one of the friendliest environments i have ever been in. certainly much friendlier than football and other team sports. when was the last time there was a riot at a boxing match? | ||
| Anonymous |
>>when was the last time there was a riot at a boxing match?<<< Probably not the best example to use - boxing is corrupt, matches are fixed, and there is a lot of booing and catcalling, if not outright rioting that goes on. Also, there are more than a few ring related deaths, mostly from head or spinal injuries inflicted by the participants. The constant pounding the head area gets causes delayed effects, as can best be shown by the present condition of Mohammed Ali. The martial arts schools that allow their students to use their heads in breaking techniques or allow kicks to the head also put them at risk for the same type damage, which may not show up for ten or more years. The structure that supports the brain is compromised each time a blow is sustained and eventually that leads to breakdown of this tissue. Should you think I am an alarmist, check out my statements with a neurological surgeon. | ||
| Anonymous |
no, i agree with you. the point i was making was that there IS rioting in football, making that , indirectly, the cause of more violence and that the violence caused by it is more harmful to more people. people who choose to fight for sport are aware of the risks involved and put themselves willingly into that situation. if there is a riot or other violence then innocent bystanders will get caught up in it and possibly even get murdered. | ||
| william sennett |
I have been practicing Martial Arts for a few years now. You can not make a mass generalization on Martial Arts Schools like this. They must be made on a per system or per school basis. Saying all martial arts schools are cultic is like saying that all forms of Christianity are. Their are so many styles. I have no doubt their are bad schools out there. I have seen some of them. A potential student must judge a school like they are going to judge buying something. Is there a "we - they mentality?" Are questions and creativity permitted? Are they too focused on making money? (are the monthly dues high, do you have to pay excessive testing fees, tourament fees...) and is the school overly concerned with producing black belts for new locations to make more money? Stay away from schools with lots of fancy expensive equipment, that charge alot for not much service, that do not teach Kata (or forms) and that produce black belts quick (because then this black belt would be worthless in a fight! At least four years of consistant taining is about right to obtain a black belt, maybe two years if it is an intense training program!) Their are many schools out there that respect the individual and teach great self defense. You must put your self in the driver seat when picking a school. I hope that you find a great school like I did because now I have more peace of mind and I can defend my self from personal attack. (No I am not magicly cured and I still have many problems in my daily life - but my training helps with all this!) I highly value my time training and I am a respected member of my dojo that is allowed to have his own opinion. | ||
| Anonymous |
Mr. Sennett, you can't go wrong arguing against a generalization, so I won't attempt to defend mine. I'll be more specific. I was not allowed to have an opinion, I was physically beat to the point where I couldn't function in any human capacity. I was abused in an inhuman way for years. I was made to feel it was my fault that I wasn't tough enough to defend myself against these attacks. That's exactly why I stayed. The training was a good example of what martial arts training can produce. I won many trophies for my school. My instructor was the absolute best I've ever seen. He was quite an example of how an abuser can make a carreer of abuse and get away with it. He helped me become like an animal because only someone as proficient as he, would be capaple of abusing me. He is still helping others, I suppose, because his face is still a recognizable icon in karate culture. Throughout my life, I've never needed any of the things I learned in my martial arts training. I've never seen any situation, nor could I imagine one, where years of training in unarmed self defense would have resulted in any outcome that would have justified the type of training I underwent. If you go to a nice clean school where no one fights hard enough to break bones, require stitiches, concussions, spinal injuries, broken knees, then wow! I wish they could have put that in an advertizement where I could have seen it. I'd have gone there. If you go to a school where the instructors don't threaten your life, I admit it, that destroys my generalization. But my school was like that. My school was "like that" because they provided training that would work in a bad situation. But, as I've said, I honestly don't know how to find a situation that bad, except in the school itself. My school fulfilled every qualification for being a destructive cult. It was a very efficient place for teaching martial arts. It still is. I'm sure it has spawned quite a few well-qualified instructors. Please excuse my anonymity. I couldn't get away with saying this to my instructor. I would not be allowed this opinion, or any objection to abuse, for that matter. Why? Because he is good enough to get away with it. Most instructors aren't, even if they wanted to. As a martial artist in pursuit of authentic training, I wouldn't have settled for less. It wasn't worth ruining my life. But you don't know these things the first time around. eh? | ||
| Anonymous |
To continue, Mr. Sennett, that's my opinion, and since I am not in the martial arts anymore, I'm entitled to it. Without going into further specifics, I assure you that your objections can be successfuly argued. It's funny, that I allowed you to imply a generalization that the martial arts AREN'T destructive. I'm sure my instructor would have been allowed me to express THAT opinion (if it had occurred to me). You are wrong. The martial arts are destructive, in general. That's all there is to it, unless you are so formidable, that you are destined to find a place among the abusers. I know, I know, you will now "defend" against my opinion... | ||
| Anonymous |
Or rather (what I sould have said) was that you will now defend your beloved, thinly veiled outlet for sado-masochism. | ||
| Don |
What a thread! I think I'll broaden the generalization a little. Any situation where a novice agrees to learn from an expert/master is a potential cult. Every potential cult is potentially destructive. Just look at some of the bad things that have happened in the Catholic church and the Boy Scouts of America. I was what I think someone termed 'a helper instructor', I was pretty well paid however. I will agree that if an instructor beats on students too hard or too often they are doing no one any favors. Additionally if an instructor is verbally or otherwise emotionally abusive that is also wrong. I think that this happens because there is no real licensing process. If your instructor tries to dictate who you can associate with then dump the school. Having some rules isn't necessarily bad, but when anyone in a perceived position of power tries to run your life it's time to bail. | ||
| umike |
Seriously flawed or abusive instructors will be found in any discipline. "Let the buyer beware" Based on what I know it seems the cult label is inappropriate. Many eastern based arts/philosophies begin with an immersion indoctrination and submission to a trusted teacher. That would also include stricter forms of Buddhism. It's quite traditional without any sinister elements. To the contrary. Most of these organizations will tell you upfront they go beyond instruction and facilitate a sometimes dramatic change of Lifestyle. The indoctrination and discipline are a very eastern style of instruction. And that has worked well for them for many centuries. It's not democratic. Michael Greenberg | ||
| umike |
One additional thought: If you want to become a champion or an extraordinary athelete you will find plenty of abusive coaches/instructors that would push you beyond your limits. These are not libertine, humanistic people. You have to know who you are and what your limits are. Michael Greenberg | ||
| Anonymous (207.69.139.135) |
The feedback I get from this board makes me think that most people see the martial arts an environment where cults could happen, but that such gross generalizations are unfair to many nice people who teach the martial arts in the best spirit they are capable of. Yet I cannot think of a single martial art that isn't designed to cause damage. It would take a skilled word lawyer to ague that something that causes harm is not harmful. It can be done, but I have to use my mind to earn a living, so I'd rather not ruin it by arguing that. I leave that argument to someone else. As for the administrative structure of the dojo, it is ridgidly, specifically and unchangably cultlike. I am certain that in such an environment, someone could imagine a school operating as something other than a cult, but that degree of imagination is beyond me. Why would anyone behave exactly, indistinguishably like a cult, and then state that they don't wish to be one? To me, that seems like the most difficult possible way of proving they aren't a cult. The obvious way would be to structure it like something else. In other words, to find an expression for the human spirit that doesn't involve harming other people as a sincere aproach to spiritual developement. Here is an example: The martial artist's philosophical approach to pain. They feel pain like the rest of us, yet a good practitioner is able to rise above such pressures and perform as if there wasn't any. They are mentally toughened by their training. In other words, subjectively, they tell themselves it doesn't bother them, even though it is still pain. When you start telling yourself pain doesn't bother you, then what does? Nothing? Sounds like an ideal state of enlightenment, detatchment. Except for one thing, it destroys one's sense of values. What motivates you when feelings are ignored? Philosphy, doctrine. An ideal brainwashing situation. That would be called a "reaction frmation" by a psychiatrist. http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/reaction+formation It is a mental straegy used to decrease unbearable psycholiogical stress. The person starts saying that whe "likes" the thing that is causing stress. This keeps a person from going insane from stress, but it isn't as good as eliminating the source, because then you have a twisted person, who thinks pain doesn't bother them, for instance. Then you have a massochist, or worse, a "golden rule" sadist who does unto others what he would like done to him. In karate circles, this type of "mental control" is produced as the result oftheir "superb training." It would be just as accurate to call it brainwashing. The point is, pain is supposed to bother, if it doesn't, something is wrong with the mind... it doesn't lead correctly, and therefore needs a leader. Luckily, the pursuit of this enlightemening, empty, directionless, mindless, zen like state is pursued vigorously in martial arts schools. A leader appears after every class, and while his students listen adoringly, in a weakened, uncritical daze from the pain and stress of the training. Then he preaches. Other people have thought about this topic on their own, but they aren't as certain about it as I am. Perhaps they are unable to be, because they're still involved: http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/zanshin8.htm l http://www.karatethejapaneseway.com/karate_underground/viewtopic.php?t=48 | ||
| king_felix (63.184.49.25) |
Interesting thread, especially to me since my wife is being sucked into a cultic martial arts school. She is obsessed (attending 3 to 5 hours a day, 3 to 6 days a week) and refuses to allow me to attend, because it is "her school, her space." Her school claims on its website to be a traditional Shaolin school, but teaches things which are not Shaolin and even contridictory to Shaolin philosophy. They are encouraging her to get into Tibetan Buddhism, which is very destructive to women. They are encouraging her to discover and bring out her inner dakini. In case you don't know there are two kinds of dakinis; the worldly dakini is a blood-sucking, flesh-eating demon, and the heavenly dakini is the mind-controlled sex-slave of the guru. The Sifu's wife teaches a bellydancing class at the school, which they have encouraged my wife to attend. He said it would bring out her dakini more. What kind of Sifu allows his wife to dance suggestively for other men for money? They are also teaching her Qi Gong and swords even though she has been attending less than five months! A reputable school would not teach those things to a new student, as it takes years of preparation to cultivate your Qi/Chi. To top it off she met another man there, and her Sifu tells her that they know each other from a past life. Sifu says that she left me in a past life and that we are just repeating that. What kind of martial arts instructor encourages his students to divorce? He is supposed to be her guide on her journey to becoming a "spiritual warrior." Is kindness, compassion, forgiveness and love not part of the spiritual journey? | ||
| king_felix (63.184.49.25) |
A few exerpts and links: Practicing martial arts qigong can cause blockages in the channel systems which might result in physical and mental diseases. Concentration on martial interactions with other sentient beings also generate negative karma which leads to blockages in the channel systems, physical and mental diseases and rebirth in the lower realms, most predominately the animal realm. If used to actually kill spiritual beings and other sentient beings with selfish intentions the intensity of the karma can lead them to rebirth in the hungry ghost or hell realms. Martial arts qigong is like a double edge sword. It can be used to increase health, or it can be the cause of disease. It can be used to increase wisdom, or it can be the cause of confusion. It can be used to protect people, or it can be used to hurt people. It can be used to reach enlightenment and liberation and it can be a cause for rebirth in hell. Whether a martial arts qigong practitioner is a success or not depends on whether they have the proper motivation, are grounded in the foundational principles, have the good fortune of meeting qualified teachers and the discipline to hang in there until the teachings are realized. If practitioners of martial arts qigong are not grounded in the four noble truths, eightfold path, six parimitas, the five precepts, and the thirty six vows of the Bodhisattva then even the Buddhas can turn into demons. http://www.sacredjourneys.org/newsletter/news03.html * * * the Guru's Consort herself in whom is embodied the five Dakini modes of Awareness. A consort is a Dakini by virtue of her involvement in a moment, or rather an unbroken succession of moments, of integration and enlightenment. In fact, rather than define the Dakini as a human being, she is better understood as a moment's intuition of the Emptiness and purity in passion when perfect insight and skilful means integrate. ... These visions of Guru and Dakini are quite different from the dictionary definition of Guru as a spiritual teacher, and the current occidental notions of a Dakini as an embodied goddess, or as a nubile, sexually available cult-follower. The exoteric meanings and connotations of the word Dakini in the common parlance of India, Nepal and Tibet cast another light upon her. Originally, it appears that the Buddhists borrowed the word from the shaktas, where in the cult of the Devi the Dakinis were flesh-eating attendants of Kali, who is the destructive aspect of Shiva's consort. In the Hindu Tantra. ... As embodied beings the Dakinis were known as malicious witches performing no positive function, feared by all but siddhas. In contemporary India the word seems to be seldom used, and those who know it attach the same negative connotations. Similarly in Nepal, on the level of the uninitiated, the word dankini is used as an expletive or slur on a vile woman. It is also applied to a witch, an enchantress, a manipulator of the spirit world and a seductress who abuses her sexual powers. ... The treatment of woman as an object that can be 'used' in tantric practice, and 'given' by disciple to Guru, and vice versa, and the language that describes woman as 'an ingredient of Tantra', may appear inconsistent with the admonition to 'adore woman everywhere' http://www.keithdowman.net/essays/woman.htm There is so much more, but I am currently out of time. | ||
| Anonymous (207.69.139.156) |
To king_felix: Sir, I can only imagine your pain. I'm sorry. As a former abuser of this sort, may I make a suggestion? Please try to see through the inadequacy of my ability to communicate: I, or one of my gang, would be reluctant to pursue a rlationship eith a woman whose husband was present, or attending the class. That's only because I thought of myself as honerable (at the time). It wouldn't stop most of the others, who had no concept of that sort. The more vulger ones would try to humiliate you by demonstrating how close they could get to your wife (Physically, emotionally, sensually). But that's a different story, and there's no telling, it might not happen. Besides, if it did happen, your persistance would probably be superior to theirs since they aren't married to her. Personally, I'd back off, even if I could beat you. After all, there's nothing happening at that school that is more important than your marriage. You must believe that even if I don't seem to. Once you become a customer or a supporter of the club, I would tend to treat you a lot better than an outsider, the bad husband who the woman is trying to escape. You say your wife will object to your presence. Then that's a major stumbling block that would have to be overcome. She does have a right to grow, even if it means making a mistake like coming to my school. All I can suggest is that you take the approach that you want to grow with her. If that doesn't work, then tell her you want to go because you want to understand what she's doing so you can support what she's doing better. If that doesn't work, try suggesting that you are thinking about attending a rival of my school. If you ask what I think of other schools, I will quickly point out the evil ones if I think you might go there. (Imagine suggesting to a Macintosh computer-user that you, a first-time computer user, will buy a Windows machine. If they're a true convert, you'll see a predictable reaction, unless they know what you're doing). That (might) cause her to want you to join her school as an alternative. I realize this suggestion is painful. They might be showing her something that you aren't: A wider social circle, a range of sensuality where you won't go. You might have to learn something, and it might take more effort than the relationship is worth. Then again... The dynamic behind her involvement in the school may be different from what you suppose. Maybe she really is looking for something outside your marriage. By choosing a repulsive cult, she has a space to herself. That's just how it goes sometimes. Cult or not, the marriage might be flawed, so don't spend all your time blaming the cult. That may be your way of avoiding the problem that sent her there. I wish you success. I wish them failure. | ||
| king_felix (24.234.155.153) |
Thank you, anonymous one. The fact is that, yes, our marriage has been flawed, and I have been working on correcting that. I was working on improving our marriage before this happened, before she began attending the school. She just did not see the value in making the effort herself. What has been happening is that she has been supporting me financially as I did not work last year. I lost my job as a manager at a rental car company, and had a bit of a mental breakdown. When I was ready to go back to work, she told me not to as she makes enough to support us both. Eventually I began this new career in real estate, and it is slow to get started. I am just now getting business, after five months of prospecting I just got my first listing today. So, she had lost her patience with me. When she enrolled in the school, she invited me to join, but I declined the invitation. I did not want her to have another bill to pay on my behalf, since I was not making money and I needed that time to work. I did tell her that I would join when I could afford to pay on my own. After two months I told her again that I want to attend, and she told me that she does not want me there. That hurt, but I accepted it. She needs her own space, and I was trying to give her that, but she mistook my giving her space for my not caring. She thought that I was being neglectful in my attempt to allow her the space to grow. I want her to grow, and I know that this is one of the things she wants to do. I was always supportive of her schooling. I drove her to and from classes, I even took photos for the school. They have two whole pages of my photos on their website. They were taken during the Chinese New Year celebration here in Las Vegas. I printed out several for them and gave the Sifu a CD with the whole set. I don't mind that they used them for the website and their newsletter, but a little credit or a thank you would have been nice. I didn't start thinking of the school as a possible cult, until I found out about the other man. I discovered email messages between them and flipped out. After confronting her, I went to speak to the Sifu. He was no help at all. He seemed to be trying to tell me to forget about my wife, in fact he said those very words. He said a lot of messed up things to me. He told me that I should be strong and think only of myself, to forget about my wife and not think of her at all. That does not seem right. It was like he was telling me "suck it up, and go away." I explained to him why she had attended alone, and he made some generalizations about Filipino women and how much they love money and need their man to support them financially. She does not believe that he said it, but he did. When I told him about the other man, and that I don't want her having any contact with him. He told me that the guy only attends one class a week and sometimes does not attend for months at a time. As if that would make me feel better about it. Wouldn't a moral instructor want to at least protect the image of his school? Does he want it known as a place where wives are sedduced and marriages broken up? Of course, he is on his second marriage. More about that later. The cultic aspects started to become clear to me after talking with the Sifu. He is a charismatic leader, which is required for a cult. He is an egomaniac. The newsletter which featured my photos said that his ultimate goal is "to be the Sifu of all the Sifu's of the future." Is that not totally ridiculous? The height of arrogance! And he encourages arrogance in his students. He told my wife that he can see that she will be a great warrior and teacher one day, and that is exactly what she wanted to hear. Would a good and moral instructor encourage such arrogance in his students? I always thought that humility was important to martial arts. When I asked her about that statement in the newsletter, her response was that a student had written it. Is there no oversight? No editor? Where did that student get such and idea if not from the Sifu? Then I started to read the books that she had bought on the encouragement of the Sifu and other students. Dakini's Warm Breath is one, and it is written by a women who was mind controlled by a guru for thirty-some years! Just read the preface, and she tells you that she is mind controlled! Of course, my wife did not read the preface. And the main text of the book is crazy, full of sick and twisted "spirituality." What is so spiritual about being the guru's whore? Another book she bought was the Buddha Path: The Swiftest Means To Attain Buddhahood. What a crock! Why would you want to attain Buddhahood anyway? It is just the destruction of your self, your mind, your identity. And of course, the book states repeatedly the importance of proper instruction from a "qualified guru." So, by their philosophy one must be mind controlled by a guru in order to be free. Nonsense! I am a very spiritual person, and I do not need a guru or a guide on my path. All I need is a partner, and I thought that I had one. More later, I must go for now. | ||
| king_felix (63.184.49.66) |
OK, more about why I think this particular school is a cult: The charismatic leader who alleges to hear the voices of the ancient masters who direct him is a good one to start with. He told her that the masters recognize her as a great warrior/teacher/healer of past lives and of her life to be. He told her that under his guidence she would attain greatness once more. So, yeah, he claims to know about her past lives. He told her that she and I were married in a past life, but that she left me and we are repeating that now. He told her that she shares a connection with the other man through a past life as well. He tells her that she and I are on different spiritual paths now. What does he know of my path? Or her path? A true master would know that he knows only his own path, and it is not his place to tell another what their path should be. Does the Buddha not teach that we must all find truth on our own? Now, what I am about to say here comes from someone else. So, think of it what you will. My wife's friend who we shall call "Dave," had enrolled his son in the school a couple years ago. He says he got a bad vibe off the instructor but allowed his son to attend. After some time his financial situation changed and he approached the instructor to say that they could not afford the dues for a couple months and to see if they could arrange something. He was told to come back when they could afford to pay again. Now, sure that is just one petty thing, but I use that to establish that there is some experience to his comments. He tells me that he was introduced to the woman the Sifu now calls his wife, his second wife. Dave says that she was introduced to him as the Sifu's daughter. That is odd, and maybe just a misunderstanding, but if true could be a sign of something deeper. On the website it says that the Sifu is part Cheyenne, but my wife insisted to me that he told her he is part Lakota. Those are not the same are they? Whatever. The website also says that he is an ordained Buddhist reverend. And the school has non-profit status. Does that make it a relion? Well, it could be for "cultural significance," after all they do perform the lion dance. See, I have tried to think of all the angles, to rationalize, to believe my wife when she says that I am just paranoid. They do seem to have a comfortable "out" to all my suspicions, for it is usually another student who has approached her about joining in the buddhist discussions or reading a certain book or seeing a certain film. But, of course, she thinks that it is all her own idea. It is so easy. They don't have to tell her that she must or even should attend a meditation class. Just the casual comment that there is a class, and you might be interested. So, you ask yourself "am I interested?" and being curious you say "yes, I am interested." And you walk into it thinking that it was your idea. And how easy is it to seduce a woman at such a place. Just by showing up for class you have a common ground. Then the questions: "So, you're married? Where is your husband? Oh, he doesn't like the things that you like? He doesn't want to spend time with you? Why are you with him then?" And I do like the things that she likes. I do like to spend time with her. But she prefers to spend time at the school. I must go now, more later. | ||
| king_felix (63.184.49.153) |
Yes, I did tell her that I want to attend the school, but she refuses to allow me. I am forbidden from attending, because it is "hers." And when I suggested that we attend another school together, she refused that as well. She says that I should attend another school alone. Her instructor told her that she and I are on different paths. After I had talked to him, he told her that she must be certain that she is leaving me because we are on different paths and not because of another man. But he had already told her that we are on different paths! He also told her that the school is under the protection of the ancient masters, and that "bad" people can not stand to enter there. So, that reinforced in her mind that I am a bad person, because I would wait for her outside. I did not want to walk in during class and be a disruption or distraction. I have no problem walking in the door or staying inside, I just didn't do so out of respect. But this confirms in her mind that I am a bad person. And why has he not kicked out the other guy? It would not be a big loss to the school to lose a student who only attends one class a week. It certainly would do much to bolster their reputation as a honorable school, but no such luck. And it would actually be a great gain for the school if I were to attend all the classes which my wife attends. She has become very aggressive and unforgiving towards me since attending the school. I asked her about it. The instructor claims to be teaching her to become a "spiritual warrior." I asked her if forgiveness, compassion, love and understanding are included in her spiritual journey, and suggested she ask the Sifu that same question. She said she didn't want to talk to him about it. I asked her why she was not interested in knowing where he is leading her. But I suppose the student is not allowed to question the teacher. I for one would want to know where I am being led. If the path does not include those things, then it is a hell path and will not lead to the enlightenment she claims to seek. Of course, she is interested in Tibetan Buddhism which holds madmen as saints. Men who wore the skins of the dead and ate the flesh of human corpses are held up as great enlightened beings. They teach that one should not discriminate between excrement and gold, and that sounds like excrement to me. Check these links: http://www.american-buddha.com/corboy.test.htm http://www.american-buddha.com/CULTS.htm#CULTS http://www.american-buddha.com/can't.embrace.htm#WHY%20I%20CANT%20EMBRACE%20BUDDHISM http://www.american-buddha.com/gave.up.htm#WHY%20I%20GAVE%20UP%20ZEN | ||
| king_felix (63.184.49.153) |
OK more on the cult aspects: I already mentioned the charismatic leader, and there is more. EXCLUSIVISM They claim to teach things you can't learn anywhere else, but there are several other Shaolin schools in town. One of which has an actual Shaolin monk from China teaching classes. LOVE BOMBING She walks in the door, and instantly everyone is her friend and they all love her. Does that ever happen in real life? If you chose 20 people at random and put them in a room together, I guarantee that the majority of them will find someone they don't like in the group. It is just human nature, and even monks who have studied for decades still struggle with their own human nature. (There is only one person there who does not like her, and that is the Sifu's wife who gives my wife dirty looks whenever she sees her talking to the Sifu. I take that as a sign that the Sifu wants to fuck her, after all his wife knows him fairly well and she must have a reason for being jealous. And she is his second wife, so maybe she is seeing something that has happened before.) TIME CONTROL Because she is spending so much time at the school and hanging out with other students after class she often is not home until after 11PM or midnight when she must wake for work at 5AM the next day. She complains that she is tired and sore, but refuses to take even a single day off as a break. So, she is sleep deprived and can not think straight or think critically about what she is being told. http://www.howcultswork.com/ A friend of hers has studied Tai Chi for several years, and talked to her about the school. (I mentioned him and his son earlier.) He told her that she needs to take a break, and that she needs to learn to crawl before she can run. She said that she is still in the crawling stage, but 5 or more hours 3 to 6 days a week certainly smacks of trying to run. Patience has never been her strong point. She wants what she wants and she wants it now, no one can tell her any different. Martial arts of this sort is a life-long commitment. I asked her if she thought that she might have started her kung fu journey a little too late. (She's 31) She said that her Sifu told her that starting in your 30's is fine. What else would he say? Is he going to turn away a dedicated student who pays a large tuition? I have tried to tell her that it is not simply martial arts, but that she is getting into a religion. She disagrees, but what I have read about Shaolin says that it is not about martial arts and kicking ass, but is really about training to become a good Buddhist. But then again, maybe they are not an authentic Shaolin school as they claim to be. | ||
| Anonymous (64.12.116.66) |
I hope I can help to debunk all this mystery of enlightened masters from the East. As someone already posted here or in another thread, most Asians are exposed to martial arts from early childhood. When they emigrate to the US, and as they fly across the Pacific, a miracle occurs - no matter how much or how little training they have had in their respective art, they become a Master or Grand Master before they land. Then they set about exploiting their "rank", set up a school in some storefront, and recruit innocent Americans to their school, who are clueless as to any aspect of martial arts, meditation, or Eastern philosophy. They are duped into giving over their money in increasing amounts as their devotion deepens. Eventually, some abandon their families, friends, and loved ones in order to follow their "master". This is the nature of a cult, whether it be martial arts, religion, or some other new age crap. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 66 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Yeah, it's almost like being a Protestant preacher in the US. There is no legal standard to what is and is not a "legitimate" clergyman, so you can call yourself "pastor" or "doctor," set up your own church, and tell people what to think about everyone else. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Member Username: overseas Post Number: 93 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
First a word to Solopilot (belonging to the Mormon church) that goes around doing exorcism against Protestants even on a Martial Arts topic !!! The fact that you can preach crap or good things is somehow related to freedom of mind/ speech and belief, Solo. And now my personal experience on martial arts. From 16 to 22 years old I was involved in martial arts training that finally ended up as a cult. Judge for yourself: - I hated my parents for not letting me train all day long - I even left home once to protest against parents because of that - together with 2 friends I was sure I have found the meaning of life - I shared secret knowledge with my friends - wanted to quit university because studies wasted my time instead of training - wanted to go into mountains and live like Shaolin monks all alone - spending parents money on kung fu staff and told parents that money were used for study books - trying to limit my friends only to my training group - dreaming to emmigrate to China only for better training - started to possess energy in tangible form without knowing its source or logical explanation - in the last period before quitting, I could not sleep some nights because I was so anxious to train better and be good at martial arts - our practice was not official (i.e. legal sport club), as I felt 'legal' trainers do not practice and teach the true spirit of martial arts - only looking to Chinese movies as horrible as possible (martial arts movies that showed cannibalism...) - 90% of my meetings with my group was talking about fighting, secret methods, meditation and supernatural powers - even had a semi-guru, the oldest from the group that was once taught by a Chinese guy; he led the group and asked us to make a secret oath. Finally I believed in Jesus and I quit. | ||
| bride (bride) New member Username: bride Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 206.99.145.7 |
Martial arts schools are what I would call Neo-cults. They are defintely cultic. I would classify them with things like Amway or Landmark. Not full blown cults, but picking and choosing cult techniques that work within their milieu. | ||
| babyface107 (babyface107) Junior Member Username: babyface107 Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.41.242.47 |
Martial arts are kickbutt organizations, It doesnt matter what religous affliation you areassociated with. The martial arts guys will kick your butt. (SMILE) | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 144 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Overseas: I notice that you didn't offer any rebuttal to my point. Sorry that you had such trouble with your martial arts stuff, but it indicates a tendency toward addictive behavior. The things that you did -- blocking family, trading productive activities for the addiction, avoidance of moderating influences (in this case, "legal" trainers) and seeking ever-stronger "fixes" (the cannibalism movies). Another symptom is is the blind allegiance to a narrow group of self-appointed leaders, who told you not to question what you were taught. They will feed your addiction for their own benefit. You went from your martial-arts stuff to one form of Christianity. In the same way that you avoided legal trainers, who would make you question your devotion to your leader, you avoid questioning your devotion to your pastor and the particular, narrowly-defined* form of Christianity which he preaches. As you eventually DID question your martial-arts leader, and found him (and his doctrines lacking), you must also question your current spiritual leader and his doctrines. You just might discover that you really do hold to everything he preaches, and that there are good reasons for that faith. But if you don't question, you are as blind and wrong as you were in those earlier years, and your faith is empty. It is as if you are afraid to learn something that you don't want to know about those doctrines. I know a number of people who are or have been involved in the martials arts. Few have gone overboard at all, and see it as nothing more than a sport which requires the same kind of practice and skill that other sports do. *Narrowly-defined is not to denegrate your belief, simply to note that it has a specific set of doctrines which differ from over 1000 other sets of Christian doctrine. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 145 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Overseas: To acknowledge your point (sorry, I got distracted), yes, we are free in the US to preach good or bad, so long as we don't do provable harm in our preaching. However, my point was that anyone can set himself or herself up as a "martial arts school," and likewise in the US can start a church from nothing more than the desire to do so. In fact, this is easier than actually becoming ordained by a recognized church. Well-known examples include "Dr" Walter R. Martin and Fred Phelps, each being repudiated by the major churches with whom they claimed to be associated, and each holding their followers by means of vehemently preaching against others who don't share their narrow viewpoints. | ||
| digitramp (digitramp) New member Username: digitramp Post Number: 2 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 142.161.107.77 |
I've read alot of what you guys are saying and you're right about a lot of things. My feeling these days is that modern information technology and a few good friends is the best way to learn anything. You guys that took martial arts and experinced ugly interpersonal dynamics have a legitimate complaint. Please for a minute, though, remember the reasons you wanted to take martial arts in the first place. We're all so many of us that are brainwashed from a hundred different angles everyday. T.V., our religions, our employers, our associates. We're at times bent into people that we didn't intend to become. The pyramid business models of the World Tae Kwon Do Association and the Japan Karate Association to name two inspire salesmanship. Cash flows from your pockets all the way to Japan and Korea. These guys are kind of like chiropractors convincing you that you need them three time a week. Never mind all that. Then you got the rogue maverick whose style is better or modern. Those guys are hit or miss. But why you wanted to do it in the first place. Was it that you wanted a relationship with a benevolent sensei? Buyer beware on that one. Ask yourself some hard questions about your own psychology. Did you want to experience the joy of practising, maybe mastering some cool complex movements? Are you a little competitive? Do you like contact sports? Did you want to learn how to protect yourself, how to fight? Nothing wrong with that, there's some real nut jobs out there. Maybe you know one or two personally. The thing is you can do all that stuff, and a whole lot more like school and girlfriends and computers and girlfriends you don't have to take any shit from some retard in a pair of pyjamas standing in front of you telling you what he wants you to think. To be a little kind where kindness is due, these guys and women are only human and except in cases of defineable malice (yes it's true in all walks of life and maybe like the priesthood that makes an easy gig for some pedophiles, the dojo may be an easy gig for some sadistic control freaks) some of these people do lose themselves and suffer the price. It's not meant to make you feel any better, but it's true. But why you wanted it in the first place. Hopefully despite all the shit, you can do a decent roundhouse kick. If you really got good, maybe you can do a spinning hook kick and knock the cigarette right out of a buddies mouth. Maybe you actually liked some of the kata and you do a session when nobody's around and it feels a little like singing. I don't do the yells on point anymore, I always thought that was a little bit stupid. Martial Arts and human nature are full of paradox. But despite all these all these freaks and assholes, you still gotta do you cardio, get your strength training, and spend five bucks at the bargain bin and get one of those follow along yoga tapes. You'll get the best stretching of your life. Practise some slow kicks in your own living room the way you want to practise them. Maybe after a couple years you go kick sensei's ass. But seriously, my sensei wasn't all bad. Sure, he made me buy him beer after class at least once a week on the run up to black belt. But, what am I gonna do? He's Irish. He's a great guy with a lot of faults. A champion karateka and in his youth, a perfect physical specimen. He could do some really cool shit. So can I. It's all still out there. | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) New member Username: munchkin Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
okay, Advice if going into any sort of school whether it be aschool of education for ytour kids, a school of martial arts, or a school of dog training. Ask to sit in on a few sessions any decent school will allow this. Discipline is a part of martial arts, for the reason that they are martial arts, and respect,discipline is important. Instructers aught to be listend to, to minimise the issue of injury, but a light tone should also be applied. research this vist lots of schools and you will see that a bad experience does not mean that the rest are like that. also why oh why is everything labelled a "cult" so quickly here, it seem a little silly to label Martial arts as cults. generalisations are never indicative of reality that "fact" shoudl be realsied before "cult" is used over this sort of issue. love becca  | ||
| xenu (xenu) New member Username: xenu Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.18.102.135 |
Yes, many martial arts schools are cults. And they aren't comparable to academic schools in this respect, so don't be fooled. There are some modern martial arts organizations that have evolved away from that, and this is becoming a trend thanks to the growing popularity of mixed martial-arts competitions that are exposing the lies. But traditional martial arts schools are steeped in cultish behavior and outright fraudulence. You can't throw a stone without hitting a martial arts school in this area, all of them featuring a "grandmaster," the originator of the style, who are always and without fail described in magical terms and attributed superhuman powers. The students will never achieve this level themselves, but the grandmasters are always revered. There is a definite "spiritual" element to martial arts, and it is no coincidence that most Asian-derived martial arts schools can be traced to the Shaolin Temple. Sometimes the religious element isn't apparent because in most schools you are required to say meditation invocations, prayers etc. in a foreign language. And, as with any cult, the goal of most martial arts schools (I can say with confidence) is to get as much money as possible from the person, and keep them as long as possible. Like most cults, there is a "bait" dangled in front of the prospective student. Sometimes this bait is supernatural powers - the ability to harness "chi," slow time or dodge bullets (seriously). Most of the time, the bait is the promise of self-defense skills. But you don't learn good self-defense at most martial arts schools. If you want to learn realistic self defense skills your best bet would be to join the military. Face it, in the modern world unarmed combat is not going to save your life in almost any situation. Your black belt moves will not save you from a gun or from mace. And probably not even from a broken beer bottle. Many martial arts schools claim to teach adequate defenses against multiple attackers, sometimes even multiple armed attackers. Good luck with that in real life. This highly-ranked martial arts master tried to use his martial arts skill to protect his girlfriend in South Africa against three armed robbers: http://www.newzimbabwe.com/pages/nandos.1147.html He managed to stop one, but was shot dead in the process. Those are the harsh realities of life. Instilling that sort of false confidence is dangerous and can be lethal. It isn't silly at all to label martial arts schools as cults. They tend to meet several criteria. Here's factnet's cult checklist: The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles. There is no appeal outside of his or her system to greater systems of justice. For example, if a school teacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, appeals can be made. In a cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters. 100% true of the majority of martial arts schools and their grandmasters. The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering. They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives. This used to be true of martial arts schools in the 70s, but the widespread commercialization of martial arts in America in the 80s changed this. The description of leaders, however, is accurate. The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life. For example, the flying saucer cult leaders claim that people from outer space have commissioned them to lead people to special places to await a space ship. Many martial arts traditions have very questionable histories. Most Japanese martial arts schools seem to have sprung up in 1868 when the feudal period came to an end. The founders of these schools were probably self- appointed. The messianic part is not applicable. The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves. The grandmasters of martial arts schools are venerated almost to the point of worship. The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say. 100% true while the student is in the dojo. The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics. Not really true of most martial arts schools. The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising. Very true of many martial arts schools. The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult. Pretty much true of traditional martial arts schools. There are several websites devoted to exposing the widespread fraud and abuse in the martial arts: http://www.themartialist.com/ http://www.bullshido.com/ http://www.e-budo.com/ I suggest you research before putting your kid in the hands of an unknown quantity. Spiritualism and mind control aside, there is a lot of fraud going around, and I think it's safe to say that most martial arts schools are scams if not cults. | ||
| tomh777 (tomh777) Junior Member Username: tomh777 Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.229.150.181 |
To label all martial art schools as cults or scams is ridiculous. As a kid I practiced judo for 6 years, and all I got out of it was a lot of hard work outs, a lot of discipline and a few medals. Off the mat my "evil cult leading instructors" were the nicest fun loving guys in the world. As an adult I did tae kwon do for a year. Yes the instructor was an authoritarian brute...but that's because he had a military background...and he was also a nice guy outside of class. Currently, I practice aiki jujutsu. Once again the instructor (who happens to be a police chaplain) is actually very kind and not on any ego trips. My martial arts experience has enriched my life greatly. Of course there are some control freak instructors out there. And in my opinion there are some martial art schools that practice mind control and utilize methods that are occultic/demonic in nature. However, most martial arts are not cults. For what it's worth I am a born again Christian so when I speak of the martial arts as enriching my life I'm not referring to any sort of out of this world spiritual experiences. I simply have found martial arts to be a lot of good clean fun for me. If you've been burned and used and abused by a martial arts school then it's up to you to choose more carefully next time. For what it's worth if we automatically assume that all instructors who are authoritarian are cult leaders then I guess that means that I got to label my old high school wrestling coach a cult leader, my cross country coach a cult leader, and even my physical fitness instructor a cult leader (!?!?!) Anything can be blown out of proportion if you want it to. Peace | ||
| xenu (xenu) New member Username: xenu Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.18.102.135 |
Fortunately, nobody labeled "all" martial arts schools as scams or cults, just most of them. And nothing was "automatically assumed" -- I'm basing this opinion on investigative research, not any sort of personal experience; can you say the same? I guarantee that if you go through your yellow pages - whereever you are - more than 50% of what you find in the martial arts section will turn out to be frauds and scams. Judo, Tae Kwon Do and Karate are a bit different than other martial arts in that there are national international governing bodies which regulate and license instructors. Still, if you don't do any research at all and take the attitude that the idea of fraudulent and abusive behavior in the martial arts world is unlikely or "ridiculous" how are you going to find out who's licensed and who's not? Your personal experience is just an anecdote. It cannot be extended to cover all of reality. Do the research. There are way too many frauds out there to just brush off as incidental. And the history of martial arts stems directly from religion... that can't be denied. There are many, many Christian black belts who have left the martial arts due to conflicts of religion, and implying that there aren't any due to your experience with sport MA is misleading. I wonder why this sort of information rubs MA students the wrong way? Talk to cult devotees and you get nearly the same responses - "oh, anything could be called a cult"; "my experiences were good, so it wasn't a cult", etc. Be brave enough to face the truth my friend. | ||
| pollyana_mouse (pollyana_mouse) New member Username: pollyana_mouse Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.86.16.130 |
And anything can be pooh-poohed if you want. Maybe your high school coaches were cult leaders. How are we to know? You havent given us any information about them, and many high school athletics coaches have been fired and gone to jail for abusive and improper conduct. And Im sure many coaches try intentionally to create cults of personality centered around them. Who are you to say otherwise. Ive certainly heard many tall tales about the wrestling prowess of older wrestling coaches that sound like worshipful veneration of a cult leader. You can overlook it because of its accepted place in culture but that does not deny the facts. http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=high+school+coach&btnG=Search+News Thats a google news search for high school coach. Just look at the articles! "Gridiron opponents united in love of high school coach" "An old-school coach’s lessons live on after him" "White Sox free-agent slugger Paul Konerko has spoken a couple of times by phone to his high school coach". Creepy! Fact is, putting an adult in charge of children is a potentially dangerous power imbalance already. With parents thats usually fine, but when it comes to strangers you just never know. And adding physical exertion to that already dangerous formula is just asking for trouble. Physical exertion is the center of a lot of brainwashing routines, you know. Once you work someone past a certain point their minds become dulled and they are easier to manipulate. And there is an effect of euphoria associated with hard exercise. That effect can get transferred or associated with the adult in command. | ||
| tomh777 (tomh777) Junior Member Username: tomh777 Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.229.150.181 |
With over 10 years experience in martial arts covering judo, tae kwon do, tang soo do, aikido, and aiki jutsu(with my main arts being judo and aiki jutsu), you might want to consider that I may have done a little bit of research and have a little bit of knowledge about the issue. Additionally, I've done a fair amount of reading about martial arts history and I do keep up with current trends in martial arts. Regarding governing bodies of martial arts, oddly enough regardless of alledged "governing bodies" I've actually found the most questionable and potentially fraudulent claims made by alledged tae kwon do "masters." And for what it's worth I also chose to leave the martial art of yoshokai aikido because I considered it to be quasi religious cult with occultic and mind control tendencies. With all due respect, while I appreciate that many who post on these boards come from the perspective of having been involved with some sort of mind controlling cult or another (I actually pastored one briefly...but that's another story...),it is my opinion that in our effort to be zealous we may be "seeing a demon under every bush." I once again reiterate...my life has been greatly enriched by martial arts, and the one time that I was involved in a cultic martial art I had the good sense to get out. I do believe that people need discernment in dealing with the issue of involvement in martial arts. However, I draw a sharp distinction between discernment and paranoia. Peace | ||
| xenu (xenu) New member Username: xenu Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.18.102.135 |
Paranoia is irrationality. I see nothing irrational about calling a spade a spade. There is rampant fraud in martial arts - it can't be denied. Your anecdotes do not contradict reality. There are also many people who have had great and wonderful experiences with multi-level marketing and with organizations widely recognized as cults. So what? The whole point of a cult is to get you to think that way, so anecdotes are pretty useless by themselves. Martial arts are steeped in religious philosophy and many are based on completely off-the-wall claims of what they can do for you. The entire "boom" of martial arts was based on Hong Kong and Hollywood movies and many, many frauds stepped in to capitalize and "sell the movie" to naive kids and their ignorant parents. Look, if you enjoyed bowing obsequiously to senseis and following their every command and believing their every claim, good for you. I'm glad you had a good experience. All cults aren't destructive. You should feel lucky that your instructors weren't abusive, if that was in fact the case and this isn't just nostalgia speaking. The bottom line is that martial arts world is still chock full of frauds and scams. Have you checked your yellow pages yet? There are plenty of demons in those bushes, son. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/martial-arts/newbie-guide/section-11.html http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/zanshin8.html http://www.koryu.com/library/wmuromoto4.html http://ntfa-dallas.home.att.net/mcdojo.htm http://www.koryu.com/library/kfriday1.html http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm (Message edited by xenu on November 30, 2005) | ||
| pollyana_mouse (pollyana_mouse) New member Username: pollyana_mouse Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.86.16.130 |
Judo and jujutsu are probably your best bets for avoiding cult environments and scams. Judo to my knowledge has no spiritual element whatsoever, and is just a vanilla sport (in contrast to Sumo, which is also a sport but is integrated with a religious outlook). Judo and jujutsu are also very effective combat arts, unlike karate or the ridiculous tae kwon do. The principles of unbalancing an opponent and taking advantage could be useful in almost any close combat situation. If you look at the sportfighting that goes on today you will see a large part is judo! Judo is the best martial art. Don't waste your time with silly kicks and mysticism. | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Intermediate Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 311 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
pollyanna, you are too funny, that silly kicking, is well thoguht of even by masters of judo and jujitsu, to be a better base for basic self defence than judo. As anyone who does Jeet Kun Do can tel you, the best martial art is a combination of all of them. and judo and jujitsu if taght properel;y by true teachers, do indead have a spiritual side to them. as both derieved from other forms of martial art. beccaxx (Message edited by munchkin on November 30, 2005) | ||
| pollyana_mouse (pollyana_mouse) New member Username: pollyana_mouse Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 70.86.16.130 |
lol, whatever. I bet you have never ever been in a real fight or any sort of combat situation have you? Ever see what happens in UFC or Pride FC when someone tries a stupid tae kwon do kick? The opponent just shoots in and owns them. And Judo does not have a spiritual element. Unless you define spiritual element in such a broad way that it is meaningless. stop believing kung fu movies danielsan | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Intermediate Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 314 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
yes i have, not that its any of your concern, karate, is the main basis for self defense, with elements fomr other things. and yes judo if taught properly does. much thoguh i like kung fu movies, opions are best if based on actul experience, and knowledge, rather than non knowledge of someone who is to closed of to really know about martial arts. beccax | ||
| xenu (xenu) New member Username: xenu Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 67.18.102.135 |
http://judoinfo.com/quotes.htm Hm... | ||
| tomh777 (tomh777) Junior Member Username: tomh777 Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.2.148.207 |
Most Chinese martial arts have their philosophical roots in Taoism or Ch'an Buddhism. Most Japanese martial arts have their roots in Zen Buddhism or Shintoism. However, many of these formally occultic martial arts have been secularized, Americanized, and/or Westernized. Some martial arts remain heavily influenced by Eastern mysticism, some don't. The bottom line is that each potential practicioner of a given art should do their homework and make sure their not getting themselves into potentially spiritually problematic martial art. | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Intermediate Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 335 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
[quote] The bottom line is that each potential practicioner of a given art should do their homework and make sure their not getting themselves into potentially spiritually problematic martial art.[quote/end] what do you mean by spiritualy problematic? none of them are spiriutaly problamatic, thy are all worthy and in any true teaching form a nessesary componet of any martia art, one can not be a tru emartia artist without learning the spirtual philosophy as well as the form/discepline, the 2 go hand in hand for a reason, to teach respect for fellow being, and to lessen aggresion. beccax | ||
| tomh777 (tomh777) Junior Member Username: tomh777 Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.41.4.231 |
Munchkin, Thanks for asking. What I mean by " potentially spiritually problematic" has to do with a couple of things. First of all as a Taoist I would assume that you believe in a neutral spiritual life force called "ch'i." From an evangelical Christian worldview we don't believe that spiritual forces are necessarily neutral. Evangelical Christianity teaches that "spiritual forces" are of either a holy or demonic origin. I recognize the potential hole in this stance (i.e. the scientific verifiability of accupuncture, the fact that neurologists recognize that our nerves send electrial impulses, etc). I also recognize that this could be seen as nothing more than a philosophical difference (your opinion vs. mine, etc). However, for a so called "born again Christian" to be working on developing their ch'i whether it's to heal or destroy others (or even for personal development) would be inconsistent with historical Christianity. Obviously, not that healing someone is bad (and spiritual discipline in many forms can be good). Rather, the issue is that the person focusing on ch'i runs the risk of taking credit for a power that belongs to God (or Satan) rather than themselves. For a Christian to be involved in a martial art where there is a strong emphasis on developing internal power, there is also a strong potential for serious spiritual conflict within that person (a sort of battle between light and darkness). As a person who spent years focusing on trying to develop his ki (I've practice Japanese not Chinese Martial Arts), I have found much greater joy and satisfaction in giving up the quest for greater supernatural ki power, and instead do my best to walk with Jesus each day and ask him to guide me with his power. I'm sorry if I come off sounding like some sort of holy roller, and I realize that I may have opened up a can of worms...but you asked, so I answered. Peace. | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Intermediate Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 399 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
tomh777 thankyou for your lear and consice, answer chi, is not really somethignthat is developed within, as such it is more something that is utilised, almost as a chrsitian feels the power of god in prayer. there is a lot of misunderstandings in the western world about the oriental, beleifs and traditions this is due alot to mistranslations, and often from looking with a monotheist mind set, we find it hard to understand that there is no real, comparisons, nor is it from within, althoguh it is developed form within, it is as true prayer is developed form within, the accesability of the "chi" "ki" or Presence of God, comes form inner attitude. but again thankyou for putting your view so much more respectfully, than many here have done. beccaxx | ||
| tomh777 (tomh777) Junior Member Username: tomh777 Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 63.41.4.65 |
Munchkin, Please clarify your stance on chi. You seem to be equating chi with the Presence of God. For what it's worth, I tend to believe that chi is not the same as the presence of God/the Holy Spirit,etc. For instance chi in my understanding is an impersonal force. On the other hand the Presence of God/Holy Spirit has personality, in the sense that the Holy Spirit can tell you things, not just in the predictive,prophetic (or what some people might call the clairovoyant)sense, but in the sense that the Holy Spirit relates to me as a person (a much bigger more powerful person of course(!!)). For instance the Holy Spirit can tell me he loves me, he's displeased with me,he feels my pain, etc. I never have gotten the sense that chi has personality. Please let me know your stance on this. Also, do you know of any Asian Christians who have a monotheistic viewpoint of God but also believe in/practice chi development? Many years ago I knew a Korean martial arts store owner. He was a devout Christian but also had several books on chi development in his store. In my Western monotheistic mindset I always found that to be a contradiction but I'm wondering if Asian Christians think differently. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Peace | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 749 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
i feel.. i say i feel that a christain could ahrdly be a martial arts peerson and be a good christian athe same time. they have a lot of ocultic beheavior about them in their teachings and lrarning, dont they? | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Intermediate Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 425 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
but tomm777, From what friends of mine tell me unless they are not projecting their own ideas then they can't feel God, same premises is true of Chi, it takes a clear mind, and spirit, tp feel, and be a part of chi. I was useing the feeling of God as a metaphorical example not as a literal example. Sorry i should have made that clear. Asian christians, well first we need to look at say when Buddhism reached China, instead of Buddhism adapting the chinese religions, of Taoism at the time, the Taoist beleifs were fit nicely by chinese Buddhists into what they called ch'an buddhism, which we know today since it travelled so well to Japan as Zen Buddhism. The asian mindset is adaptable on the spiriutal level, their most ancient known form of beleif Taoism, is adaptable and teaches that all things are valid within the Tao (the way, or the path) in religeous Taoism, Jesus is seen as a great sage for example. So for asian christians to still beleive in Chi, to not be christian is like asking a christian healer whether they can still be christian, it is that same energy from the same source, but due to evolutionry (socio religeous evolution, not going into other evolution) differences and socio political differences they are called different things, and discribed in different ways. So personaly i would say that the korean martial arts shop owner was a true christian, with an openness and acceptance of a force, that is positive, and if cultivated can lead to dicsipline, and to healing. maybe the "cultivating" is simpley clearing the mind for Gods message i do not know. Maybe if you ever havea chance to ask this Korean shop owner he will i'm sure havea better understanding than i do. arron, it all depends on what you mean by the term occult, if you mean evil demonic practises that are ungodly then no they don't practise that, if you mean do they teach a spirituality that came from buddhism shintoism, and other eastern spirituality, then yes they do, as much of that comes into understanding how and wehy the martial art developed, and aids a great deal in discipline. Now before you yell no ungodly etc, think about this, you have God as your spiritual guide yes? to helo you to not use any dangerous martial moves, on anyone who angers you?Even to control your anger? Well now imagine someone without any spiritual guidence, none at all, been sent to learn say by parents a potential wonderful, fit self defense teaching martial art, now imagine that teenager, is angery (not a big stretch) and using the martial atrs without any form of spirtual influence, no self cultivation, which in reality is most of what any spirtuality actually is. They are more likely to use what they use in school, or youth group than they are if they develope a disciplined mind and body. This is why spirtuality has been taught along side the martial arts for along time. Bruce lee said it as well as anyone, "To teach the art of non violence through the art of fighting" hope that helps beccax | ||
| ihavesinned (ihavesinned) Senior Member Username: ihavesinned Post Number: 1079 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.112.180.149 |
Anything that Arron is not familiar with is clearly influenced by demons. How could it not be? | ||
| tomh777 (tomh777) Junior Member Username: tomh777 Post Number: 34 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.229.18.3 |
Munchkin, I appreciate that you were using the idea of the "feeling of God" as a metaphor and not a literal example. However, I was using it as a literal example. When I speak of the presence of God I really do mean that if you know Jesus as your Lord and Savior you can literally feel his presense (not all the time of course). When you know Jesus as your Lord and savior you can literally hear Him speak to your heart. Not in some sort of auditory hallucination sense but again in the sense that He speaks to your heart. Again, this is something much stronger than your conscience speaking to you. As a matter of fact, in the book of Jeremiah God tells His people, "Call unto me and I will answer you and tell you great and wonderful things that you do not know." Similarly, in the Gospels, Jesus says, "My sheep know my voice." Again, it's because through the reality of having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ that many people have given up things that they formerly thought were worthwhile and meaningful only to discover that absolutely nothing compares to knowing Jesus as Lord and savior. Admittedly, many people have done stupid, hurtful things "in the name of Jesus." However, that doesn't negate the fact that Jesus is alive and well and living in the hearts of those who call upon His name. Once again, I apologize for sounding like some flaming evangelist. But Munchkin... I got to tell you...nothing and no one can compare to having a relationship with Jesus Christ. God's Peace | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Intermediate Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 477 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
tom, again i'm sorry, but although somethign can be a metaphor, it can also be the same thing. What i mean is it is very probab;e that chi, to me or others, is to you, Jesus'/Gods, spiritual presence. i would also suggest that many give up what they need not due to misunderstandings, and medievil aiittudes, to other forms of expressing spirtuality. In the east is is accepted that Chi is life energy. To a christian this woudl be Gods life giving energy. There is little difference between the feel of the two energies. To someone who is truly one with Christ, God, there energy is the same as one who is one with the Chi, this leads me to beleive that they are the same thing, or at least part of the same thing, in youir case part of God and his power, in mine, the Tao. The people who do and say hurtfull, basically nasty things in the name of Jesus, have not in my opinion really accepted any positive spirtual power, to you Jesus to me Tao. Their energy is more hurting and less healing, you for example have a light energy, i have been told by a preist i do to, (he was very suprised ot learn i was not christian), people who do and say horrible things in the name of God, have dark and chaotic energies, full of darkness. Whether we call the dark energy that of satan of Dark Chi, there are dark energies just as there are light energies, unfortuanly some of these dark energies do things in the name of those representing light, God Jesus, etc. i hope that helps you to feel more of where i am coming from. love becca xx | ||
| angel_from_the_sun (angel_from_the_sun) Junior Member Username: angel_from_the_sun Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 4.255.75.94 |
To tomh777, I like a flaming evangelist and agree that to belong to Jesus Christ is the greatest gift to all of mankind. Becca there is only one way to determine if a person is speaking the truth. See if what he/she says is in The Holy Bible. In order to make this determination you have to read and study the Bible with an earnest desire for God's truth and a sincere heart. God is love Angel from the sun | ||
| munchkin (munchkin) Advanced Member Username: munchkin Post Number: 516 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 62.255.32.17 |
Becca there is only one way to determine if a person is speaking the truth. See if what he/she says is in The Holy Bible. In order to make this determination you have to read and study the Bible with an earnest desire for God's truth and a sincere heart. ************************************************** that is only true if you beelive in the abrahamic religions, if a person does not, or has a more open mind to spiritual journey's, then this is not true. i am also unsure as to why you have posted that reply, as it doesn't seem to relate to any of my posts here? i was answering r endevoring to answer a question, in a context that a christian coudl follow. as such your reply baffles me even more. especially as its nature is very eleitist, suggesting that the ONLY way to experioence positive spiritualaity is through GOd, well, i have been to God, in the christian way, (the method and way being between myslef and if real God) for me it felt wrong, crushing, opressive, dead. Tao is light and goodness, i can feel the benevolence of the positive spiritual, its messgae is to me, what gods message is in its basic form to you. truth is how we find the positive spirit, all positive waya are valid. I know you will not see this, and for that i am sad, but please accept that there is no evil in Tao, if you can feel energy/peoplel good spirit, then i hope you can feel mine love beccaxx |
