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Post Number: 23
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Posted From: 219.60.132.118
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 7:15 am: | 
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In the MSI and the Ishayas thread Undenied said:
gThere seems to be so much talk about various levels of consciousness throughout this organization... "so-an-so is in union consciousness"... 12 people have reached exalted.... all teachers are supposed to be in perpetual..... etc..... I'm just wondering about the verification process for all of this? Is it really possible to verify this by another person? There appeared to have been some history with the SFA with people thinking they are in Union consciousness or one of the others and then it didn't end up being true... or perhaps just falling out of it.... What ever happened to the old thought that if someone tells you they are enlightened its probably not true?h
Or how about gif someone tells you that you are enlightened itfs probably not true.h
As you mentioned, everyone who teaches Ascension is theoretically in perpetual consciousness. (See 7 states of consciousness posted on November 25th in the MSI and the Ishayas thread if you donft know what this means). In MSIfs writings, he describes PC as perfect freedom wherein life is lived in permanent joy. One is established in the perfect silence of the witness throughout waking dreaming and sleeping. All self destructive programs have ceased and one is ever established in the now. Identification with mind and body cease and one no longer has the sense g I do, I acth.
On the other hand, the verification process was based on 2 things:
1) Your ability to discriminate the unchanging Ascendant within from ever changing experiences.
*Students were usually instructed to look for gthat which never changesh. They would describe their experience to the assembled group of teachers and teacher trainees. (i.e. gwhen I think an Ascension Attitude such and such happens. Its still, silent, etch). The group would give feed back based on what was said or what they felt.
2) Your ability to choose for it any time
*Literally at the end of the description, if people were satisfied someone would say gCan you choose for it anytime?h and the student would generally say gyesh and then they would receive a number.
And that in a nut shell is PC.
Maybe you can see the discrepancy.
Whether or not teachers of Ascension are experiencing a stage of enlightenment or whether they have merely been told that they are and believed it is and has been a big question for many ascenders and some teachers for some time.
The Unity numbers worked in the same way. Give description, elicit feedback and eventually get a number which means gYes, thatfs it, you are now fully enlightened.h When Gana came along and told all the Unity teachers at that time that actually they were not in Unity, but since he was in real Unity he could help them, most of the now former Unity teachers towed the line and followed him. So in effect they were first told they were fully enlightened and believed it but were later told in fact they were not enlightened they came around and believed that.
I know a certain teacher who was very enthusiastic about his experience. He used to say gI am a rishi, Ifm established in Perpetual Consciousness.h And later gI am in Unified Conscious. I am Enlightened.h Then he went through a really difficult time on his own, was drinking a lot and in a bad state. Later I saw him after he had joined the ISA. He had all his enthusiasm back saying that actually the problem at the SFA was that none of them really had known the Ascendant. But now he has the guidance of a real Teacher and who has helped him to really know the Truth. Now people are Really getting enlightened. And on it goesc
Ascension has its roots in the teaching of Advaita Vedanta (the non-dual, liberation centered teaching of India). MSI said that basically Ascension is Advaita Vedanta. However in Advaita teachings, the stage wherein the student is able to discriminate the nature of the Self from the non Self (or said another way, the Knower from objects, awareness from mind, I from I am this or that) and practice fixing attention on the Self continuously is not considered a stage of liberation but only the first stage of sadhana (spiritual practice). Also the experiences that are definitive of Exalted consciousness (the second stage of Enlightenment according to Ascension) are not considered liberation but actually a form of obstacle that can arise on the path of the sadhak (spiritual practitioner).
Discriminating and focusing one pointedly on the Self is an authentic method. If the Ishayas at the ISA can help you with that then thatfs a good thing. But when people get really enthusiastic about their fast track to enlightenment or give you some sort of time table or sayh X amount of people attained X level in X amount of time and now you can too!h I would say be cautious, there is a good chance they are only fooling themselves. |
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Posted From: 219.60.132.118
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 7:29 am: |
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There is a big satsang movement, sometimes called Neo Advaita that stems primarily from a teacher named Papaji, a student of Ramana Maharishi. This movement contains some parallels to the points raised above about the Ishayas. The following article was written by Michael Langford, you may find it interesting.
Here in Papajifs own words are what Papaji had to say on the following subjects:
#1. That large number of persons who thought they had an awakening experience in his presence.
#2. Papaji speaks on his gambassadorsh; those who he sent to teach
and those who Teach in his name.
#3. Who is and is not liberated. How many Jnanifs (Awakened, Enlightened, Liberated Sages)
did Papaji meet in his life time?
David Godman interviews Papaji:
David: gYou used to give experiences to a lot of people. Why did you do it if you knew that the effect would not be permanent?h
Papaji: gI did it to get rid of the leeches who were sticking to me, never allowing me to rest or be by myself. It was a very good way of getting rid of all these leeches in a polite way. I knew that in doing this I was giving lollipops to the ignorant and innocent, but this is what these people wanted. When I tried to give $100 bills to them, they rejected them. They thought that they were just pieces of paper. So I gave them lollipops instead.
David: Many of the people you gave lollipops to left Lucknow thinking that they were enlightened. Does the fact that they accepted the lollipop and left indicate that they were not worthy to receive the $100 bills?
Papaji: gIf one is not a holy person, one is not worthy to receive the real teaching Many people think that they have attained the final state of full and complete liberation. They have fooled themselves, and they have fooled many other people, But they have not fooled me. A person in this state is like a fake coin. It may look like the real thing. It can be passed around and used by ignorant people who use it to buy things with. People who have it in their pocket can boast of having a genuine coin, but it is not real. It has no value. When it is finally discovered to be a fake, the person who is circulating it, claiming that it is real, is subject to the penalties of the law. In the spiritual world, the law of karma catches up and deals with all people who are trafficking in fake experiences. I have never passed on the truth to those whom I could see were fake coins. These people may look like gold and they may glitter like gold, but they have no real value. There are many people who can put on a show and fool other people into believing they are enlightened.h
gWhy does hearing the truth only work in a small percentage of cases? The simple answer to that is that only a small percentage of people are interested in the truth.h
David: gMany people have heard you say, eI have not given my final teachings to anyonef. What are these final teachings, and why are you not giving them out?h
Papaji: gNobody is worthy to receive them. Because it has been my experience that everybody has proved to be arrogant and egotisticc I donft think anyone is worthy to receive them.h
David: gThough Papaji has consistently said that a living human Guru is essential for those seeking liberation, he does not intend to appoint anyone to carry on his teaching duties when he dies. He remarked in one of his satsangs a few years ago,eWherever there is a lineage, impurity enters,f and cited several instances to back up his statement.h
Interesting to note that many of those who teach using Papajifs name talk about their lineage. How gracious of Papaji to give so many pointers to let us know that all those who are teaching and giving supposed gsatsangh in his name are false coins. Papaji said that he had only met two Jnanis (Awakened, Enlightened, Liberated Sages) in his lifetime. One was Sri Ramana Maharshi. The other was a man who came from out of the Jungle near Krishnagiri ( a city in South India). Sometimes Papaji would add one or two people to that list. However, never did Papaji add any of the people who came to see him in Lucknow, or any of the people who teach using his name, etc. to that list.
It is clear then, that none of the thousands of people who came to Lucknow to be in Satsang with Papaji are Liberated Sages according to Papaji. Start at the very top of the page and read again if you missed that point. The question might then arise, why did Papaji send some people to gTeachh? The answer is he did not send them to teach, he sent them to point the way to Lucknow. Papaji said that he told them to tell what had happened to them in Lucknow. Instead, they began teaching and presenting themselves as though they were Awakened. If you look at what those who teach in Papajifs name have presented, from their advertisements and brochures to their words in their supposed gsatsangh, pointing to Lucknow was not what they were or are doing. They have always been pointing to themselves. You are invited to attend satsang with ____________. Papajisf name was not what they put in that blank.
The following is from The Truth Is, Sri H.W.L. Poonja, edited and compiled by Prashanti de Jager, pages 418 - 421
POONJAJI SAID:
gThis is the Kali Yuga, Even Rakshashas (demons) will incarnate as teachers to mislead you. Those who must be destroyed by these demons will be.
Test the Guru by the teaching: without inquiry there is no teaching. Shun every teacher who does not teach inquiry.Directly looking at your own face is the only teaching.
If the Guru says 'I am enlightened,' it means the ego is enlightened so stay away. Western teachers who say this are preachers so stay away and only write books to load more garbage on seekers, and more money in their pockets. They will attract so many students, but in Kali Yuga it is the falsehood which will draw the crowds. The Truth and the true Gurus will be neglected. If there is a teacher and a student for more than one second then both of them go to avachi hell!h
You have asked many people to go and teach. Are these people messengers or masters in their own right? Can you explain this?
Poonjaji: gThey are messengers. They are giving this message throughout the world of what is happening in Lucknow, so that the whole world is happy. They are just messengers, but with some the ego crops up and so they claim to be masters. They will go to a hell along with those who follow them.
Messengers are messengers, but is it right when they are given something to give and share, that they say it is from themselves? Why not be honest? They should say, 'I got this from this place and so you can go there if you want the same thing.' But ego is very strong and that is why they say you have to serve twelve years so your ego is removed.
The person who hurt you so deeply stayed with me for twenty five days. In these twenty five days he stayed in tourist Bungalow and came to me for one hour in the morning, This means he stayed for twenty-five hours! And you can see the result of this twenty-five hours. He says he has surpassed his teacher. Another one stayed just twelve days and declared himself the master of the masters. But this Freedom is a prasad from the Teacher. He will touch your head and the he will be satisfied with you. When he is satisfied he will hand over this precious Diamond.
So all this is arrogance of the person. Ignorance and ego play this part. All the teachers of the world have this ego of being a teacher. The teacher must be humble. He must be like a servant to serve the people so that they become happy. If the teacher is arrogant what can he or she teach to others? Practically every teacher in India and the West are arrogant commercial teachers. Everything is becoming commercial.
You have to be careful about the messengers. When India sends out ambassadors they cannot say, 'I am the Prime Minister'. Ambassadors are ambassadors and must get instructions and consultations of the Prime Minister. But if they behave like Prime Minister they are called back.h
There seems to be cases of where people have a mistaken conviction that they have attained the ultimate Truth.
Poonjaji: g Many saints, sages and teachers think that they have attained ultimate Truthh
One difference between most of those who give gsatsangh in Papajifs name and Papaji is: most of those who give gsatsangh in Papajifs name charge money for intensives, retreats, and or satsang. Papaji never charged money for Satsang, or intensives, or retreats, etc..Whenever there is an exchange of money there is business going on. All those who charge for Satsang, retreats, intensives etc. , are business people. Just imagine if your father told you that from now on you would have to pay him a fee if you wish to spend time with him. You can easily see the absurdity of some you love who also loves you making such a statement. And yet the gI thoughth (ego) will not allow most people to see the absurdity of a spiritual teacher charging you a fee or donation when you wish to spend time with them. That is just one of the millions of strategies the I thought has to preserve its imaginary existence. Not allowing you to see that you should stay away from all espiritualf teachers who charge fees or accept donations.
Sri Ramana Maharshi wrote:
gBy him alone whose saved himself, can other folk be freed. The help of others is as if the blind the blind would lead.h
Thus what you get for your money in the case of those who teach in Papajifs name is: According to Papaji: gfake coins, leechesh
According to Sri Ramana: The blind leading the blind and one who can not free you.
In the following dialogue Sri Ramana Maharshi points out why Papajifs way of gjust keep quiet, make no efforth was doomed to failure. Sri Ramana predicts the very results that Papajifs way produced i.e. only the temporary stilling of thought and not liberation. The following is a dialogue between a questioner and Sri Ramana Maharshi from the book gBe as you areh edited by David Godman:
Questioner: gWhen I am engaged in inquiry as to the source from which the 'I' springs, I arrive at a stage of stillness of mind beyond which I find myself unable to proceed further. I have no thought of any kind and there is an emptiness, a blankness. A mild light pervades and I feel that it is myself bodiless. I have neither cognition nor vision of body and form. The experience lasts nearly half an hour and is pleasing. Would I be correct in concluding that all that was necessary to secure eternal happiness, that is freedom or salvation or whatever one calls it, was to continue the practice till this experience could be maintained for hours, days and months together?h
Maharshi: gThis does not mean salvation. Such a condition is termed manolaya or temporary stillness of thought. Manolaya means concentration, temporarily arresting the movement of thoughts. As soon as this concentration ceases, thoughts, old and new, rush in as usual; and even if this temporary lulling of mind should last a thousand years, it will never lead to total destruction of thought, which is what is called liberation from birth and death. The practitioner must therefore be ever on the alert and inquire within as to who has this experience, who realizes its pleasantness. Without this inquiry he will go into a long trance or deep sleep (yoga nidra). Due to the absence of a proper guide at this stage of spiritual practice, many have been deluded and fallen a prey to a false sense of liberation and only a few have managed to reach the goal safely.h
The key to understanding the difference between Papajifs teaching, and Sri Ramana Maharshifs Teaching, and why Sri Ramana Maharshifs Self-Inquiry leads to Liberation and why Papajifs keep quiet, no effort approach did not lead to liberation, and never can lead to liberation lies in the above quoted passage from the book gBe as you areh
Sri Ramana Maharshi points out in the above passage that keeping quiet, stillness of the mind can never lead to liberation, and Sri Ramana Maharshi says that it produces a false sense of liberation. So once again read the dialogue again and again until you see it.
Papaji has made it clear that no one was liberated who came to see him. Papaji has made it clear that many who came to see him have fooled others into believing they are Liberated. Sri Ramana Maharshi in the above quote shows why Papajifs no effort, just keep quiet approach can never lead to liberation, and does lead to a false sense of liberation. Therefore, what is truly amazing about the above quote by Sri Ramana Maharshi is that Sri Ramana Maharshi predicted the exact results that Papaji had.
What is needed for liberation, according to Sri Ramana Maharshi Is to continually keep attention on the Self-awareness. When the mind is quiet, even then one must look at the awareness that is perceiving the quiet. Or look at the awareness who realizes its pleasantness. Because the goal is to destroy the ego notion permanently so that one can remain in Permanent Silence, not to keep quiet, which will only be temporary.
I wonder how many of those many who have been deluded and fallen prey to a false sense of liberation are now teaching, giving satsang, etc.?
The Self-awareness, awareness of awareness must be continuous and accompanied by intense effort according to Sri Ramana. All the vasanas, and thoughts and impressions must be Destroyed for liberation according to Sri Ramana. 99.99% of the time Papaji taught no effort, no practice.
Sri Ramana taught a method that is not easy, that requires a total dedication, tremendous eagerness and effort. Along comes Papaji who says no effort, no practice. It looks like an easy way out. It is understandable how, hearing of all those so called awakening experiences that people were having in Lucknow, that people would be attracted. (That was how I was attracted to Lucknow) However, as stated above, we can see from Papajifs own words, that those were not really awakening experiences, those were false experiences. Thus Papajifs no effort, no practice way
does not work, It does not end the ego notion. Will people, even after having read Papajifs words regarding the so called awakening experiences, and those who teach in his name, etc., still continue to study Papajifs words and continue to attend the so called gsatsangh of those who teach in his name?
Yes, most people will. The reason is that the ego notion has millions of strategies to preserve its imaginary self. So people will find a way to change or interpret what Papaji has said in order to justify continuing on the path of Papaji or on the path of those who teach in Papajifs name. In Papajifs words: gonly a small percentage of people are interested in the Truth.h
Out of the billions of people on the earth only a few are really interested in ending the ego notion. Of those who are really interested, in almost all cases the desire of the ego notion to preserve itself is much greater than the desire for liberation. The ego notion has millions of strategies to preserve itself. The ego notion is very tricky. The ego notion uses thought and creates experiences with strategies for preserving its imaginary self. Those very few whose desire to end the ego notion is much greater than the ego notions desire to preserve itself, use discrimination and discernment (viveka) to discover the ego notions self preserving tricks and to put an end to them.
When the snake oil salesman comes and tells you he has got an easier way, that is a good time to use discrimination and discernment. |
khalamari (khalamari)
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Username: khalamari
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.24.105
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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I think it is good to be wise about ones own evolution. There will be many books and personal opinions regarding the state of the world and of enlightenment.
If one seeks to further themselves then one should do so in whatever way suites the individual. That is what will happen anyway.
Anyone who would know about the Universe itself, including what one might read will understand that the Universe itself is not that complicated. IT contains the desire of the people within itself and shows itself through experience.
The world is a mirror of the awakening Soul.
If you were to interview a recognized Enlightened Teacher they would tell you what is pertinent to the service they perform within the construct.
To know yourself you must find yourself within the mirror. Then you may find your Self.
On the money thing, I tend to think making a rule about anything either one way or another limits the Teaching of Self realization because someone wants to point in a specific direction towards God.
"God is not here if life looks like this"
If one waits for a repeat of what happened 2000 years ago to acknowledge the 2nd coming rather than seeking within themselves through what is here now, then they are simply waiting.
I don't know if anyone can become enlightened or free by waiting. I guess the interview with Ramana Maharsi regarding Papaji would indicate that doing nothing doesn't exactly produce desired results, but that would be relative to what you desire to achieve and the beliefs you have about the goal.
In tearing down the Church I don't believe that it serves those who cannot see any hope beyond it. Leaving them to rebuild it once again only seems to be a waste of energy that could be used to direct those who don't sit still in one place or invest themselves in the institution of belief.
In Todays western Society the value one places on themselves and their teaching is a question in itself of what is real and what is worth pursuing.
Mostly I think that people feel abandoned by God and so are not willing to put anything of themselves forward because they feel God owes them something or will come without sacrifice because the past has been so full of false sacrifice and suffering in the name of "God.
One can only find what is right for themselves and often in ignorance that is by comparing themselves to others.
Beliefs in what any True Teaching should be, would have to separate the levels of Teaching into the one that ultimately leads to the Truth, however would you say that the 1st grade is not necessary in preparation of the 2nd or that grammar shool classes are not necessary for the preparation of higher education?
In any situation grasping onto a single experience does not lend itself to the whole experience.
Like the story of the 3 blind men who are led to experience the elephant by the mischievous young boys. When each is led to different parts of the elephant and stand in their own experiences, they will argue over who's experience is the truth.
When each experience is valid but none seeks to accept the truth of the others experience there is separation. And when they acknowledge the Truth of the others experience then the whole begins to expose itself in the acceptance of all pure experiences and the intellect can evolve into a greater vison and experience. |
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Posted From: 219.60.132.118
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 12:42 am: |
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"On the money thing, I tend to think making a rule about anything either one way or another limits the Teaching of Self realization because someone wants to point in a specific direction towards God.
`God is not here if life looks like this' "
I tend to agree with that although I do have some sympathy for Michael's point of view above. When you depend on students for your income, it can affect your intentions. How many teachers of Ascension have found themselves in an intro course thinking in the back of their mind about the relationship between how they interact with the students in that talk and the resulting turnout and income they'll make on the upcoming weekend course? I was personally never comfortable with the charges and the fees, I simply didn't like doing things that way. However these things are meant to be applied individually and my own feelings have dictated my own decisions. What other people do is entirely up to them and I see no real right or wrong in the matter.
What I have often wondered about is the descision MSI made to tell people that they were enlightened. Validation can be helpful in teaching a person to discriminate and practice, but surely he was able to see that the experiences he was validating did not constitute realisation? Telling someone they are now in such and such a state only ends up creating an "I am now enlightened" thought, another false thought-identity that will have to be removed like all thought-identities. It can also become one of the stickiest and hardest to remove of all the impressions, blocking the sense of humility that is requisite to real growth.
It remains something of a mystery to me |
khalamari (khalamari)
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Posted From: 68.186.24.105
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:15 am: |
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I guess then that leaves lot's of room to seek the Truth in the Actions of his Teaching.
I find that everything happens for a reason and I'll accept that the results of his actions are no mistake either.
I think a few are finding out for themselves that MSI always led someone where they needed to go in order to see themselves a little more clearly even if it might take a while. |
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Posted From: 219.60.132.118
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:17 am: |
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On the subject of fees, here is an excerpt from the 17th chapter of Paul Mason's biography of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, detailing how the fee structures for TM were developed. The Fee structure for Ascension was developed along the same lines as TM. All the quotes are from Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
************************************
The task of convincing his students of the merits of charging for initiation was another matter entirely. It might be remembered that before the decision to fix the fee (euphemistically referred to as a 'donation'), contributions were made voluntarily. As if it was not difficulty enough to go out as envoys of the Maharishi, the newly trained teachers had also to cope with the embarrassment of asking for money. Their teacher advised them how to tackle this issue:
We want to announce the charge but we want to announce these words also: 'We are a charitable organization... SIMS is a charitable organization'
His devotees sensed his apparent hesitation and sought to assist their Master in his explanation. They suggested words and phrases that might be of use to him and gradually a statement was prepared:
'Non-profit is the word. Non-profit char- Non-profit education corp- organization.'
Having honed the party line, the Maharishi took time to soften his audience with some anecdotes taken from the early years of the Movement. He recalled that it was in Los Angeles that the decision to standardize 'donations' came to be made:
People had made a rule, that they put some basket there so that people when they come and when they go, they put something in the basket. And I felt very ashamed with that basket on the door and people coming and I said 'It is like begging on the door', because it was too odd to me to put a basket in front of my room.
Another, more obvious, answer would have been to move the basket elsewhere and stay with the voluntary contributions. However, the Maharishi had many prosperous visitors and therefore wondered whether a regulated pattern of financial support could not be made available. It was his suggestion that a move be made towards a fixed 'donation', a proposal that was discussed and agreed. Initially the figure had been set at a week's wages per family, and later, in certain countries, it had become modified, with fixed individual rates being introduced.
Certainly money was needed. How else were his followers to book halls, print leaflets and publish books? But the insistence on compulsory 'donations' ran contrary to his professed doctrine. He appears to have forgotten his message to the people of Kerala, that the 'path is straight and entry is free', for he now said:
We are not ashamed to talk of money, to ask money or to accept money and to spend money. Because more money we have, more quickly we will spread this meditation. Money is needed for quick expansion of the ideology and if we can afford to be very slow then we don't need anything.
Recognizing that his students needed help in coming to terms with this extra responsibility, he offered to make their task easier by teaching them a selection of his winning one-liners:
Say, 'This is such a great gift to life that it can't be evaluated in terms of some dollars or what or what', like that. That is a good expression to it.
We can always say, 'It can't be repaid, the teaching of Transcendental Meditation can't be repaid, but this is how the organization runs and money is needed more and more' and ... like that.
But no amount of explanation could conceal the fact that the 'donation' was in fact a fee. Traditionally, spiritual organizations have relied on the goodwill of their supporters for funds. The Maharishi angered many of his countrymen, who felt that spiritual teaching should always be free of charge. His own guru, the Shankaracharya, had demonstrated his views on the subject quite unambiguously, having gone so far as to prohibit people from making any material offerings to him whatsoever. The tale is told that on one occasion a follower sought to share some new-found wealth and concealed a few gold coins amongst some flowers close to the Shankaracharya. He received an unexpected response in that he found himself temporarily banned from access to the old swami. According to the Hindu belief system, all objects have their own karma and evidently he who was hailed as 'infinitely bestowed' had no wish to share the influence of this man's karma, golden or otherwise. It is surprising that the Maharishi should have taken such an apparently opposite view. He tried to explain:
The organization needs money, but the method of receiving money has been so constructed, the style of accepting money and giving money. The word donation provides that structure, the man feels contented in his heart: 'I am giving a donation for some pious work, for some good work.' Now he can give money in this way, feeling good about giving, or he can give money feeling that 'it were better if I had not to give' and yet giving it. Now the money is received by the organization but in one way, as far as the receiving is concerned, the value is the same for both .
One might say that to feel 'contented in his heart' the new initiate would probably prefer to retain control over his or her money. After all, if the meditation were that wonderful, surely the new meditator would wish to help defray the costs incurred in its teaching.
That element of the heart and of this ... it's completely missing, it's a matter of the cashier recording it and finished. There is no pious or holiness attributed to it to culture the heart in the act of giving.
So how should the student teachers deal with their mixed feelings about demanding and taking money, about having to be not only teachers but salesmen and cashiers? The Maharishi could see no problem:
[the donations] which we have fixed for ourselves in all these countries, international standards. We just follow that, easily and comfortably.
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exisa (exisa)
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Posted From: 198.182.163.115
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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Here's a quote from Dr David R. Hawkins, the teacher who wrote "I" and "Power vs Force" regarding spiritual teachers and money.
"A true Spiritual Teacher is literally a "Mind Healer." The healing that they offer has nothing to do with money. It is their intention to offer
tools for enlightenment -- the "gift" is extended whether money is present or not. A true teacher celebrates the process of enlightenment. The
healing can happen simply from receiving the truth of his message. If someone wants
to play with more tangible things like a like-minded group, the teachers presence and a place to sit and listen, they are asking for things in
the world (not the mind) to be present. Sometimes those "things" ask for money, but the mind "healing" does not. If a teacher says you cannot receive the mind healing without giving money, he is not a Spiritual teacher." |
khalamari (khalamari)
Junior Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.24.105
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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I think if someone wants to take the "Oneness" principal in their life regarding Teaching and the value of God one could seek to find their Truth in any way they wish. They could find a teacher who supports himself by accepting money or seek the Teacher who makes himself available to anyone who is sincere in their quest for enlightenment.
If one were to value the Teacher who travels, and has not achieved a spiritual level that allows him to aquire the means to support himself without working for it, then one could aquire the teaching thru that teacher and spend his own money travelling the world and giving it freely or simply pass it on via the internet or some other means.
For the others who wish to not spend any money, then they could wait for the Guru to come to their door, or they might have to spend some money to travel to the location of the Teacher who does not charge for the gifts of Satsang in hopes of being worthy of acceptance to be taken under the Teachers wing.
I'm not sure where this whole idea of how God should come to someone started. I would agree that God is Free to anyone and the availability of all knowledge exists for anyone to recieve it.
That being the Truth no one should have to do anything other than find it within themselves.
So how come when someone has the knowledge and makes it available by instruction that anyone insists it has to be a certain way?
Does the Teacher who knows God and also knows God is infinite and available, not direct the student to find God within themselves instantly by saying so, or does the Teacher spend time to explain this process then guide that student into mastery of the process?
What is the correct way of instruction?
Does a seeker need to find a process or simply accept the fact that God is within and then be the master?
With the availablilty of Free religion and Gurus that are giving it away for free, why do so many who are against the idea of charging for it spend so much time arguing over the fact that it should be free when they have not themselves surrendered to the creation of God and not risen above the duality of rules?
I think alot more time could be productively spent looking beyond the need to fix what seems wrong and seek the truth, but I think that people would rather just be comfortable and squash anything that might threaten their personal system of values.
Originally the United States was set up as a Rebublic by democratic process to set a certain set of boundaries in place that would not threaten the freedoms of people to believe what they want to believe in and to seek to support themselves in such a way that would not trample on anothers freedoms of belief and expression.
Because of the paranoia that exists more time is spent on trying to give the majority the right to try and integrate all beliefs into a working system or universal belief than to educate each other in the way of the others beliefs so that they can co-exist in harmony and universal acceptance.
One way contains the truth and the other separation and fear.
I would say that the reason this is an issue is because most have not reached a level of understanding or awareness to accept God in all of its diversity and are still trying to Fit it through the eye of their own personal belief systems, when the universe is not contained in any single belief.
If one wanted to learn of God and isn't willing to exchange any energy of any kind for it, then they should be confident that anyone who does would be wasting their time. But I think they fear that somone may gain something they won't by doing it differently, otherwise they wouldn't be spending so much time telling anyone they are completely wrong in their approach.
It's so difficult to stay out of anothers business isn't it? 
On the other hand if one disagrees with anothers approach wouldn't it be of more benefit to find where they were coming from, to exchange ideas and come to an agreement to allow the other to have their choice knowing that choice is free as long as it doesn't interfere with anothers choice and freedom? |
goldenage (goldenage)
New member
Username: goldenage
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 60.234.127.112
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 1:46 am: |
|
Hello all.
Scribe and Kalamari – I am very pleased to have found your comments on Ascension and Sri Ramana. But, Scribe, if I may – you say: a teacher named Papaji, a student of Ramana Maharishi.
First: How is it that Papaji styled himself as a student of Sri Ramana since Ramana himself apparently accepted no students? People seem to have gravitated to Ramana’s side and he did help them directly but as far as I have been able to determine, he never once accepted anyone as a ‘student’, as a devotee yes but not as a student. I have all of Ramana’s published writings (in English) as well as 20 or more books written by his devotees but I do not see the name Papaji in any of them. Also I have visited with the Ashram in Tiruvanomali & I did not see any books in the bookshop associating with the name Papaji. Was Papaji truly a student of Ramana or did he just (as many did) ‘pass by the Ashram’? If the latter then there is not much point in extensively analysing Papaji’s teaching method in relation to Ramana.
Second: Ramana does not appear to ever say that he himself directly used the technique of self enquiry (who am I?) to obtain his enlightenment – he taught it that is abundantly clear, but he appears to have realised the Self through the technique of imagining himself to be dead and then becoming aware that his essence transcended both life and death (if I understand what he is said to have experienced correctly).
}} |
khalamari (khalamari)
Junior Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.24.105
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 1:39 pm: |
|
I guess Scribe read a different book than you.
Damn there goes the Idea that Truth can be quantified by reading a book or a magaizine article. Shit, I hate when that happens.....  |
goldenage (goldenage)
New member
Username: goldenage
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 60.234.127.162
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
|
Yes he has read something I have not but David Godman writes a lot about Sri Ramana & he is said to be at the Ashram. I just looked at his website and sent him an email hoping he can explain the situation regarding Papaji in more detail. |
goldenage (goldenage)
New member
Username: goldenage
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 60.234.127.162
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 9:07 pm: |
|
Reference to Babaji & Sri Ramana
Aha, found a more detailed reference - it is a description of Papaji’s visit with Sri Ramana – not quite the formal student though but still since he says that he learned something from Ramana but it is clear from the text that his ideas were clarified by Ramana’s presence rather than through any formal teaching relationship in 1944 or so. This appears to be somewhat different from the dawning of awareness that confirmed devotees apparently reported. |
scribe (scribe)
Junior Member
Username: scribe
Post Number: 27
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 219.60.132.118
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 9:23 pm: |
|
Hiya goldenage,
Does it matter? |
scribe (scribe)
Junior Member
Username: scribe
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 219.60.132.118
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
|
from Monty Python:
Script:
Three people at an office are discussing the meeting-agenda
CHAIRMAN:
.... Item six on the agenda: the meaning of life. Now, uh, Harry,
you've had some thoughts on this.
HARRY:
That's right. Yeah, I've had a team working on this over the past few
weeks, and, uh, what we've come up with can be reduced to two
fundamental concepts. One: people are not wearing enough hats. Two:
matter is energy. In the universe, there are many energy fields which
we cannot normally perceive. Some energies have a spiritual source
which act upon a person's soul. However, this soul does not exist ab
initio, as orthodox Christianity teaches. It has to be brought into
existence by a process of guided self-observation. However, this is
rarely achieved, owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from
spiritual matters by everyday trivia.
[pause]
BERT:
What was that about hats, again?
HARRY:
Oh, uh, people aren't wearing enough.
CHAIRMAN:
Is this true?
EDMUND:
Certainly. Hat sales have increased, but not pari passu, as our
research initially--
BERT:
But when you say 'enough', enough for what purpose?
GUNTHER:
Can I just ask, with reference to your second point, when you say
souls don't develop because people become distracted,...
[rumble]
...has anyone noticed that building there before? |
khalamari (khalamari)
Junior Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.24.105
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 11:41 pm: |
|
quote:Hiya goldenage,
Does it matter?
That's what I was wondering when you decided to clarify what you thought was missing in the life and Teachings of MSI and the adventures of The Ishaya Monks. |
goldenage (goldenage)
New member
Username: goldenage
Post Number: 7
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 60.234.127.162
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 12:15 am: |
|
Khalamari & Scribe - Hi - No nothing matters it is all a dream only and what matters is merely what one elects to think matters. However I for one am extremely glad that Scribe clarified some aspects of the Ishaya Monk's journey and also that you, Khalamari elected to react as if you thought it did matter. I am the direct beneficiary of that exchange (together with the fascinating insights that fell out of it) for which I most humbly thank you both. To think that ISA was alive and kicking in White Rock and the Okanagan and so forth, areas with which I am quite familiar is indeed quite a revelation. |
goldenage (goldenage)
New member
Username: goldenage
Post Number: 8
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 60.234.127.162
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
|
and anyway - souls even if possibly the subject of a discussion - are just a "mistake", from the first to the last. |
khalamari (khalamari)
Junior Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.24.105
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 3:53 am: |
|
quote:and anyway - souls even if possibly the subject of a discussion - are just a "mistake", from the first to the last.
Sorry, I don't follow you on this one.
And as for any clarification about MSI and ISA, I think that you can Trust that ISA exists but enything else would be tantamount to taking someone elses experience for the Truth and accepting that reality as your own. |
goldenage (goldenage)
New member
Username: goldenage
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 60.234.127.162
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 5:12 am: |
|
The first mistake is to elect the self-test of departure thereby initiating the soul-thread. The second mistake is to imagine that the soul exists (even if tracked through incarnation after incarnation) because that perpetuates the cycle which upon realisation is seen to dissolve, fall from view to be after all nothing but a dream - a transitory and "postulated" shadow on the otherwise spotless Ascendant. |
goldenage (goldenage)
New member
Username: goldenage
Post Number: 12
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 60.234.127.227
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 7:11 pm: |
|
From: "David Godman" <david_godman@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: David Godman
Date: Sunday, 20 February 2005 7:10 p.m.
Dear (goldenage),
Papaji is a devotee of Ramana Maharshi. He came to see him in the 1940s and visited him regularly until 1947. In that year, just before partition, Bhagavan advised him to go back to the Punjab and make sure that his family was safe. He never had the opportunity of coming to Tiruvannamalai again. In the early 1940s he had been looking for a living guru, someone who, in his own words ‘could show him god’, when a sadhu appeared at his home in the Punjab and directed him to Tiruvannamalai. When Papaji reached Tiruvannamalai, he realised that the sadhu who visited him and Ramana were one and the same person, although Bhagavan had not physically left Tiruvannamalai for almost fifty years.
Papaji usually called himself a ‘disciple’ of Ramana Maharshi, although Ramana himself said on a few occasions that he was not a guru and did not have disciples. However, he did have disciples, and he did function as a guru.
‘Papaji’ is a title that was given to him by his own devotees in the 1990s. His original name was Hariwansh Lal Poonja, and he appears in Day by Day with Bhagavan as a Mr Poonja from the Punjab.
Best Wishes David Godman |
goldenage (goldenage)
New member
Username: goldenage
Post Number: 13
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 60.234.127.227
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 7:21 pm: |
|
quote:Cohen happened upon H.W.L. Poonja, a then-obscure teacher who claimed to be of the lineage of Ramana Maharshi. Tarlo later discovered that Ramana Maharshi (1879-1950) left no lineage.
A similar situation? |
goddessoflove (goddessoflove)
New member
Username: goddessoflove
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 80.60.115.69
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
|
Hi Scribe,
I've spent a couple of hours reading this forum on MSI/Ascension and Advaita. I really laughed my head off from time to time. Thanks for that! The whole history of SFA, ISA and I found pretty funny to read. Funny in the sense that human beings seem to be struggling everywhere: whether enlightend or not...
Anyway, I learned to ascend with MSI, with which I mean Maharishi Sakti Ishaya. (Note the similarity!)
I did the first sphere with her somewhere in South America, and was taught 2 next attitudes in a class of an ISA teacher here in my country half a year later. I've ascended on and off: it quiets my mind more easily than another spiritual practice that's a big part of my life.
Ever since learning the attitudes I've had this 'need' for learning more about the background of ascension, history, and to learn more about expansion of consciousness. Somehow I felt that a lot of what I was looking for, wasn't that clear, or hard to be found. In an e-mail conversation with Bushana parts became clear, but not all of 'it'. So funny to stumble on your elaborate postings here on this forum, that I never even heard of before today...
I'm interested in if you still teach and/or practice ascension, or that you prefer other ways of experiencing the love that you are.
I'd like to share with you on a more personal level. If you're interested please mail me at 'Bleep'.
With Love,
Goddess of Love
(Message edited by Goddessoflove on March 31, 2005) |
khalamari (khalamari)
Junior Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.191.21.100
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 2:40 am: |
|
Heya heya step right up and get your reality right here... We got it in any form that will fitcha, just check out and test drive any personal reality and see if its what you always dreamed of to be your very own...... |
goddessoflove (goddessoflove)
New member
Username: goddessoflove
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 193.173.52.103
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 4:46 am: |
|
Hey Khalamari, I see the words you are writing.
But what is it you want to get across? |
khalamari (khalamari)
Junior Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 40
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.191.21.100
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 1:20 pm: |
|
Oh nothing in particular. There are a lot of things that people see and they are often blinded by the personal desire to see what they want to that keeps them blind to what they are missing.
What is it that you really want? |
scribe (scribe)
Junior Member
Username: scribe
Post Number: 29
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 219.60.132.118
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
|
Hey G.L.,
You may want to either take down your email address or rewrite it without the "@" ( i.e. "name" at hotmail dot com) otherwise you may find your address gets picked up and spammed to death.
I've jotted it down and will give you a shout soon. |
goddessoflove (goddessoflove)
New member
Username: goddessoflove
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 80.60.115.69
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
|
@Khalamari: Thanks for your reply that you wanted nothing in particular to get across. Does that also go for the second sentence you wrote, that I cannot seem to grasp either?
With Love,
Goddess of Love |
goddessoflove (goddessoflove)
New member
Username: goddessoflove
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 80.60.115.69
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
|
@Scribe: Hmm, spammed to death huh? Nah, I'd rather live a little longer... ;-)
I'll take down the address in a minute.
Thanks in advance for shouting. Don't shout too hard... I've got fragile ears...
With Love,
Goddess of Love |
khalamari (khalamari)
Junior Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 41
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.191.21.100
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:59 pm: |
|
If you can't grasp the second sentence then I see no reason to repeat it. |
undenied (undenied)
New member
Username: undenied
Post Number: 9
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 70.49.27.222
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2005 - 11:42 pm: |
|
Well.... I'm off to Ishana! |
souly (souly)
New member
Username: souly
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 24.95.52.171
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 10:12 pm: |
|
(Message edited by souly on June 06, 2005) |
hoola
New member
Username: hoola
Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 70.125.85.168
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:41 am: |
|
Yes, you are now fully enlightened...
NOW GO DO THE DISHES... AND CLEAN THE TOLIET OR BETTER YET, get a job and work for your money.
What does being fully enlightened anyway..
How does it SERVE you?
What is the POWER of it?
What do you do with it... after it is REALIZED?
Seems to me, most enlightened people FEED and PREY off the poor slobs who DON'T KNOW... and love the MONEY, that the un-enlightened make, but refuse to work for themself... sounds to me like they USE you... now, that is really enlightened.
Smiles. |
khalamari
Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 71
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.22.232
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:23 pm: |
|
Know alot of enlightened people eh? |
hoola
New member
Username: hoola
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 70.125.85.168
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:33 pm: |
|
Only One, Myself... I am the ONLY True Enlightened BEING I will ever TRULY know.
(Message edited by Hoola on July 16, 2006) |
khalamari
Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 73
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.22.232
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:35 pm: |
|
Know alot of enlightened people eh? |
hoola
New member
Username: hoola
Post Number: 25
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 70.125.85.168
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:38 pm: |
|
Well Yea... I lived in an Ashram for 7 years... and spent 3 years in many Ashrams in India... I have walked with many so called FAMEOUS ENLIGHTENED beings.
I was taken to the Valley of the Immortals when I was 12 and initiated... so in some regards I do know just a very tiny... tiny... bit.
and, I KNOW a big secret...
The one who Knows... don't speak...
The one who Speaks... don't know.
(Message edited by Hoola on July 16, 2006) |
khalamari
Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 75
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.22.232
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 4:39 pm: |
|
So your saying that in your speaking of it, that you don't know.... I see..
Well gee I'm convinced.. |
hoola
Junior Member
Username: hoola
Post Number: 30
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 70.125.85.168
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
|
I love word games... does this mean you win and get the PRIZE of being on Top of the mountain again?
Self satisfaction can be great, just another form of delusion.
Kisses
(Message edited by Hoola on July 17, 2006) |
khalamari
Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 79
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.22.232
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 9:23 pm: |
|
I'm just following your lead in this conversation. I don't necessarily participate in mental masturbation just because another does, that'd be your choice.
If your looking for winners or losers then by all means keep playing the game to see who wins and loses. |
hoola
Junior Member
Username: hoola
Post Number: 35
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 70.125.85.168
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 9:20 am: |
|
What is compelling to respond to?
Defend your position or Make sure someone understands Your Position?
To be know?
Smiles |
khalamari
Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.22.232
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:06 pm: |
|
What compelled you to come here and post?
Preach your belief? Make someone understand your position?
To gain intelligent understanding about Ascension by by perpetuating your path of truth according to second hand information rather than personal experience? |
hoola
Junior Member
Username: hoola
Post Number: 46
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 70.125.85.168
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 2:05 pm: |
|
Mumbo Jumbo... Twisting Words..
Mumbo Jumbo... Twisting Words...
None of the above.
Smiles.
(Message edited by Hoola on July 19, 2006) |
khalamari
Member
Username: khalamari
Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.186.22.232
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
|
quote:None of the Above
Exactly, so why then ask me a redundant question.
Everything is twisting words so then just accept the fact that you are here to twist words and I'm supporting you in that.
In your own words
quote:Wasting time
This is your choice and god supports you |
|
