| Author | Message | ||
     solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 415 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
My fiance looked in here earlier, read many of the posts, then sent me an email: "Mahal -- be honest,you are writing the frankling and godschilds stuff so you can shoot it down and make nonmormons look loko,di ba?" After I stopped laughing, I just HAD to share this with the whole group, and tell her (and anyone else who was wondering): NO, I am NOT making up those posts! I don't need to, they came here on their own, thinking that they are the best representatives that Christ could come up with! | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 332 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
No, we are not the best representatives Christ could come up. Christ is the best. You want to belittle what I write. But like Harry Truman said when one of his supporters hollered at him "Give them hell Harry". He replied "I just speak the truth and they think it's hell." GC is doing a good job of holding your feet to the fire. And you are squirming and backstroking all over factnet. Like I wrote before the only problem I have with mormon doctrine is this blasphemous idea that man can become a god. Other religions have just as goofy ideas. But they do not claim to be Christian. Mormons do. I have many mormon friends. I like them and they like me. I do not challenge their beliefs and they don't challenge my beliefs. But several of them have told me that yes, through spiritual progression they believe that they can become a god. But this is the internet. This is factnet. Here we can discuss our differences and try to provoke each other to rethink our individual beliefs. Are you the best representative of the mormon church? I doubt it. The way you attack the responder shows a lack of depth to your beliefs. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 418 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: I see the connection between you and Truman. You're speaking hell, and think it's truth. If the only thing that you have a problem with is your heretical belief that man isn't a true son of God, then you need to ponder and pray. However, that isn't your only problem with the Restored Gospel, you have mentioned a number of other things. Oh, yeah, "squiriming and backstroking." Right. No, I am definitely not the best representative of Mormonism, but I'm good enough for here. I "attack the responder" because "the responder" LIES ABOUT MY CHURCH. Notice that those who have not spouted lie after lie after lie aren't being "attacked." | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 152 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.41 |
How do we know the Book of Mormon is not additional revelation? 1. It teaches a different God 2. It also teaches different doctrine Man, sin, afterlife, salvation Apply law of non contradiction "While they can all be false, they cannot all be true. Furthermore, if one of these is true, the others must be false (because they contradict each other on essential beliefs and practices). See the point. If the Bible is true word of God, the Book of Mormon cannot qualify as his word." Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God is tested We are forbidden to add to his (God's) word God can add, but man cannot add or subtract from his word. Mormons have frantically tried to convince Christians and the world that their church is Christian. They have not been able to do it yet, and according to scriptures of the Bible, they never will. They cannot even make a good 'clone' of christianity. They cannot 'evolve' into christians because though they change their doctrine; their doctrine and how the original leaders of their organization mangled the basic tenants of Christianity by going against what God has taught us in the Holy Bible (by their fruits you shall know them), they are lost unless they completely admit it is false, with false prophets, false teachers, false doctrine. In fact, that it is and always was since JS got the idea, satanism!!!!!!! If they are so sure they are right and Orthodox Christianity is wrong even in one point, why do they continue to crave the title. Why not just accept the Mormon title and leave it at that. They even lay claim to the bloodline of Jews. But only the few (Laman or Laban or whoever and his family) are considered to be Chosen Ones spoken of in the Holy Bible. They claim the chosen place to be in America, (to heck with the Jewish nation)}. They just cannot stand on their own, and never will. At least not as a Christ-led church. Do they want to be christians or Jews, or jewish Christians, or jewish-christian-mormons?} A more personal question to your fiance would be, "am I more special because of my bloodline as taught by Mormons, or because I am a christian?" | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 153 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.41 |
After reading sp's response to Franklin, christians do not speak to make friends, that is not what Christ taught us to do. He said love one another, and if you confront satan and do not be tempted, he will flee from you. I know that Franklin and I are very happy to be attacked for Christ. It is our way of showing him how willing we are to follow him and not concern ourselves with the world view, but his only. First you complain that you are persecuted because you are a mormon, and now you are proud that people here call us liars. I think I have only seen one person call me a liar. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 154 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.41 |
Franklin, you will be blessed for your righteousness. We do not claim to know everything, but we are always glad to learn more truths in God's Holy Word. I will say good eve to you and may God Bless you all. I've rented a really good movie, one of the evil things mormons warn against. It is called Ray. Have you seen it yet? I love Jamie Foxx' acting. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 335 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Nowhere in Christianity is it heresy to believe that God is God and man is man. God was not a man. And man cannot be a god. It is heresy and blasphemy to believe otherwise. Other faults I find with mormons are similar to what I find in non scriptural led Christian Churches. For instance works based salvation. Legalism. What lies have I wrote about the mormon church? Like I said, I speak my God's truth, the best I know how. You just think it's hell. Show me your backstroke. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 337 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
How was the movie "Ray"? I've been wanting to see it. Watching a movie which shows a man's tribulations, coming to maturity, is not evil. It is a testimony to God. Like you would read in the Bible. You can read about much evil done by man in the Bible. That doesn't mean it is evil to read the Bible. The Bible is the best source for man's knowledge. But God's word can be reflected in a good movie. I am selective about what I watch. The Holy Spirit guides me there. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 419 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: Of course it's in Christianity, but you just don't believe it. Your heresy is saying that it's not true. YOU don't think it's heresy, but that doesn't change the facts. You lie each time you say that Mormonism isn't Christian. "Like I said, I speak my God's truth, the best I know how." That's perhaps the most truth I've ever seen from you. The problem is that your god isn't the God of the Bible. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 157 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.40 |
Oh, I will tell you it is an inspiring movie based on Ray Charles life portrayed by Jamie Foxx, (for anyone who doesn't know). It is a movie that every christian should see. There is some fowl language but not much. Even if christians should not use these words, we would be ostriches if we can't see beyond them to the 'Moral of the story'. The sex scenes are not explicit (does not show the act of intercourse) as many producers seem to think that is what the people want, (and I guess, many do). But the movie is about how it took Ray so many years to overcome a childhood tragedy to become one of the greatest artist's and humanitarian of our time. I cried a lot of tears while watching this movie, and it inspired me to not concern myself with my past, as God has forgotten what I have confessed and repented of, immediately on my asking. If I have remorse or guilt, it is because I can't let go, not God's inability to, or desire to. That is the 'love' we aspire to, and I accept I will never be God, Christ, but I can accept the holy spirit to guide me now. God gives me evidence of his faith, and all I need to do is say 'Thank You, I praise Your Holy Name' in the name of Jesus Christ. The holy spirit will see he gets the message. Don't you love it? | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 339 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.73.104.62 |
"If you eat from the tree of knowledge, you shall be gods", thus spoke satan. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 425 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: Uh, no. "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be AS gods, knowing good and evil." Gen 3:4-5 (emphasis added) God said the same thing . . . "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" Gen 3:22 "Us," God said. Hmmmmm . . . . | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 348 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Us = the Trinity and satan. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 429 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: I've already shown that you got the basic verse wrong, and with it goes the interpretation. Now you're claiming that God would include SATAN as part of "us"???? | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 350 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Of those who know of good and evil. Not some fictional mormon god on another planet in a far off galaxy. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Franklin, may I ask just exactly where you believe Satan came from, and how/why he was allowed such a free reign over man? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
My apologies, of course it should be REIN | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 434 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: I think you're confusing the Restored Gospel with Star Wars. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 354 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Rebellious satan and one third of the angels were cast out of heaven. satan has no power over a believing Christian. Just over the fools who do not believe in God or the fools who think they can become gods. No. Mormon doctrine is that man can become perfect, become a god, create a world (like earth) and rule his creations like the one true God. There is only one God in the entire universe. He is the creator, the beginning and the end. There are no others Gods anywhere else. Submit to the one true God. All others are false. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 439 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Franklin: Don't ever change, okay? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Franklin, sorry but you are doing what I've seen you accuse solopilot of several times - not answering the question. Do you believe that God did not have the ability/power/desire to control an unruly angel? - can I assume that you accept Satan was created by that same God? - if God let them all wander off with such apparent ease, did this show he does not "care" about them. Who caused such a destructive rebellion and over what, what were his goals/ambitions? - what did those angels cast down lose from chosing this, alternate path? The questions are endless, but please explain in your own words where Satan CAME from (i.e. how his creation relates to ours and Christs), and how it came to be that he was able to set up in "opposition" to God. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 167 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.6 |
It is not up to diciples of Christ to CONVERT, but to say, here is a book that will change your life. Read it. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Franklin and GC - I have read several of your postings which state that LDS are not Christians because we believe that we have the potential to become gods. We do, but lets make it clear, we do not pretend that we will ever be able to usurp the position of that all powerful being who is our creator, whom we worship and desire to live in the presence of once we leave our mortal existence. You are obviously blinded by your desire to prove Mormonism wrong, at the expense of discovering the truth. It MAY interest you to know that some non-mormons think the same way e.g:- The people who keep on asking if they can't lead a good life without Christ, don't know what life is about; if they did they would know that "a decent life" is mere machinery compared with the thing we men are really made for. Morality is indispensable: but the Divine Life, which gives itself to us and which calls us to be gods, intends for us something in which morality will be swallowed up. We are to be remade. All the rabbit in us will be swallowed up - the worried, conscientious, ethical rabbit as well as the cowardly and sensual rabbit. We shall bleed and squeal as the handfuls of fur come out; and then surprisingly, we shall find underneath it all a thing we have never yet imagined: a real man, an ageless god, a son of God, strong, radiant, wise, beautiful, and drenched in joy and Christ has risen, and so we shall rise. St. Peter for a few seconds walked on the water, and the day will come when there will be a remade universe, infinitely obedient to the will of glorified and obedient men, when we can do all things, when we shall be those gods that we are described as being in Scripture. These are quotes from the renowned CHRISTIAN writer C S Lewis ! How about: If the Word became a man, It was so men may become gods Said second century Saint Irenaeus, the most recognised Christian expert of his time; or another second century, Saint Clement of Alexandria who wrote, "Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god." who also said "if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God.... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, 'Men are gods, and gods are men.'" and then there's the early fourth century Saint Athanasius after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named "The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods.... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." Finally, Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: "But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. 'For he has given them power to become the sons of God' [John 1:12] If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods." These Saints of the early Church were, at least I feel in a better position to determine what true Christianity was about. So in reality your poignant question must be turned back at you Franklin and GC how can you claim to be Christian and NOT believe in your ability to be one of the gods? - you follow an heretical doctrine that has removed all reference to our true devine nature and potential may I suggest that only he who would desire us to fail to meet our potential would benefit from this? Get of your high horses, and accept that your preachers pastors or even your own misunderstandings have led you down the wrong path, fortunately for you it's not too late to back up, and head off in the right direction. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Franklin you say above that our idea of becoming like God is the ONLY problem you have with Mormons - following on from what I said in the last post - put your money whaere your mouth is, I know some representatives of the Church that would love to teach you of the FULLNESS of the gospel, can I arrange a visit? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 187 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.44 |
joesdad, putting your money where your mouth is, is gambling. Ahem, that's a no-no. sp quoted his 'fiance' (if there is one),"Mahal--Be honest, you are writing the franklings and godchilds stuff so you can shoot it down and make nonmormons look loco, di ba?" sp said "you're speaking hell, and think it's truth." You're right, he was speaking (Hell) and the mormon church are the same, and it is the truth. So what's your point? sp also said in the same post"I'm not the best representative for mormonism, but I'm good enough for here." So what's your point? You have accepted the rascism in the Mormon church because, as you said, "Blacks were excluded from the priesthood in the L.D.S. Church. Maybe from your viewpoint, this is better than exclusion, but from someone who grew up 'the wrong color' most places where I lived, I would point out that I did join a church in which I expected not to be ordained, rather than become a Protestant Preacher and looking for a 'colored' congregation. That should give you some idea of how the issues look to me." You say mormons treat you as if they don't see your color. Of course they do, they want that ten percent you give, and they need lots of volunteers for all the many good things you claim to do. Also, their membership rolls are falling. Not only are people wiser to the truths your leaders taught and called scripture, members are falling away. In 2002, CBS reporter stated concern in Salt Lake City, because so many members, especially women and children are on antidepressants. Also, the head psychiatist for Utah stated at that time a concern that hundreds of kids were committing suicide in Utah, more than twice the natural average.} Maybe the mormon church should let women into the priesthood too. Maybe that would improve what the male holders have accomplished. Do you resent someone for putting you, the great sp, into the home of your parents at birth? Do you resent society for not giving you, the great sp, pastorship in a white church? Do you resent God. Or do you really think it might have been (according to your church's teachings), that you were black because of a curse, and nasty things you did in your spirit world? Solopilot, perhaps your fiance should be asking you who is loco, and why a girl from the islands wants to marry a man who not only blames everyone and everything for his failures and cannot see it is his perception of life that causes him to be skewered in his thinking to the point of accepting a white man's church over a black man's? Could you possibly be another Michael Jackson or OJ? Search yourself for the answers. I don't think the mormon church can answer these questions for you. And I don't think you can handle the answers. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
gc: GOOD TO SEE THE ONLY RESPONSE TO MY POSTING WAS THE LAST PARAGRAPH, THIS REALLY EMPHASISES MY BELIEF THAT YOU ARE A "WOMAN SCORNED", AND WILL BLINDLY STAMP ON ANYONES BELIEFS, INCLUDING THOSE WHICH WERE ONCE YOUR OWN (SO YOU SAY - THOUGH EXTREMELY CONFUSED!)- WHAT MORMONS BELIEVE AS SHOWN ABOVE IS WHAT YOUR CHURCHES ALL BELIEVED IN THE BEGINNING - SO IN FACT YOU ARE THE ONES SPOUTING FALSE DOCTRINE AND LIES - DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD WILL LOOK PAST YOUR LIES SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE RIGHT? - AS FOR ME, I WOULD RATHER TAKE THE WORD OF A GOOD MAN WHO LIVED LESS THAN A CEBTURY AFTER THE SAVIOURS MINISTRY THAN YOU, WHO ARE SO CONFUSED ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN AND HAVE NO UNDESTANDING WHATSOEVER OF THE LDS FAITH. gc, AT SOME LEVEL YOU ARE LYING, JUST BE HONEST WITH EVERYONE ELSE AND ADMIT AT WHAT LEVEL - MUCH OF THE HOGWASH YOU SPOUT ABOUT LDS BELIEFS IS THE WORST FORM OF RUBBISH PRODUCED BY ANTI-LDS - GROW UP, ONLY AN IDIOT WOULD BELIEVE YOU! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 211 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.97 |
Joesdad, You say I am lying. Your own history books show what I say is truth. You would rather 'accept' what people have told you. That sounds like 'your personal problem' to me. Who or what is it that you believe 'scorned me'? I am curious about your answer. I never said I follow the teachings of CS Lewis or any other writer. If what anyone says agrees with God's HOLY WORD, then I accept it. Instead of spending your time calling nonmormons or past mormons liars, why don't you show us 'proof'? My faith in GOD, not a church, is my proof. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 212 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.97 |
Joesdad, Are mormons the only people you love; as in family members? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: I see where the problem lies (pardon the pun!) - you are quite willing to accept some false accusers version of history - rather than the documented history of Christianity - more fool you! Sorry I cannot agree, it is quite obvious your faith in the anti-LDS material you have read and reproduced influences your beliefs far more than God does. you know that you repeat points you have read elsewhere, even when you know that they are not what the LDS church believes at all - or at least you should know if you have been influenced by the church for as long as you say. I don't ask you to "follow the teachings" of anyone but the Saviour, however you are blinding yourself, and by doing so ensuring that you continue to follow this foolish path of attempting to the sully the church's name. I would take the word / understanding of a leader of the church that lived within 100 years of the saviours earthly ministry than those whose lies you choose to follow. Errrr... FYI, I'm th only active LDS in a vey large family, I love them all, and am very close to them all - you are so blinded by your Satanic dogma, you can't see beyond it can you? Scorned? - you have one big axe to grind against the church - may I ask, in all seriousness of the real reasons/ background behind your leaving the church? - I mean real, not some blown up verbiage meant for the other anti-LDS reading this. Were you excommunicated for something and feel wronged (not an uncommon response, did someone offend you? - come on, show how honest you are! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: as Franklin has failed to answer my question, where di Satan come from? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) New member Username: joesdad Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Just reread what I said above, sorry it was not totally correct - by family I meant brother sisters parents etc - I am married to a lovely wife and have 4 children who are also all active in the church - best clirify things! - cos she'll moan if she sees I forgot to mention her !!! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 216 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.48 |
Joesdad, I count 39 definitions of Satan in the KJV (the version you claim to consider scripture). These are verses, testimony, witnessed, from Genesis thru Revelation. Are you going to say all these are wrong? No where in all the Bible does it say Satan was/is the brother of Jesus Christ. If you want to deny the mormon church teaches this, then you deny Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. If you need help reading the Bible, perhaps you are learning from 'satan's believers'. The mormon church is not the only church satan leads. But it is the only one I was a member of. You are the second person wanting evidence here of my ever being a member or how I came to be excommunicated. Give me your names and addresses, and I'll give you mine. Or stop asking! You always say what I post are twisted lies but you have not affirmed or denied any of the teachings I quoted, you only label me as a liar. Show us evidence!! You are the one defending. I don't have to defend my God. He is All. Why are you afraid to quote from your leaders? As I said before, I am not a member of any denomination. I am a follower of Christ who intends to warn innocent people as often as I am given the opportunity. Read 1 Samuel 16:14 which defines Satan as: evil spirit Read Genesis 3:4-14 which decribes satan as a serpent. Read Matthew 12:43 which decribes satan as unclean spirit Read 2 Thessa. 2:9 He works with power all signs and wonders Jude 6-Angel which kept not his first estate My question? Do you believe Jesus Christ was/is an angel? There are so many descriptions of satan I will not quote them all. If you have a Holy Bible, it is easy enough for you to find them. Only if you seek truth! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Junior Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: you are ranting, I asked a simple question. Don't want a quote, just in your own words - sheesh, I'll never ask you want you want for Christmas  The "teachings" you quote are so mixed up with inuendo and attempts to twist possible answers, they cease being questions - in reality you mainly ask for reactions to untruths. I don't NEED to quote from "my leaders". WHERE did Satan come from? - not descriptions of him - sorry but you'll have to apply some original thought to this, hard I know but at least it will be a basis to start from. I AM interested in your REAL experience (though I have no right to know the details of any disciplinary action taken against you, and would not ask for this)with the church, which is clouded in your postings as you spend so much time attempting to prove it false. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 225 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.1 |
No you are not. I have written about my 'real experience', you have not written about yours. Why does what I say bother you? Every Sunday, I listened to mormons give their testimony in Sacrement Meeting. I haven't heard one testimony from the mormons on these posts who are supposed to be so sure that what they believe (or I should say are willing to accept, whether it is truth or not) and the reason that becomes apparent is: you don't have one that will sound like a christian testimony. You are afraid of being exposed, which is to be expected. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Junior Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: YES I AM, HENCE MY ASKING. WHAT YOU SAY BOTHERS ME IN THAT SOME OF IT IS NOT TRUE, AND YOU KNOW IT. IT ALWAYS BOTHERS ME WHEN PEOPLE CHOSE TO LIE SIMPLY TO MAKE A POINT. IN REALITY, YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT I PERSOANALLY BELIEVE, OTHER THAN IT MAY GIVE YOU SOME MORE AMMO TO ATTACK WITH! - YOU DON'T KNOW ME - SOMEONE IS MAKING A LOT OF PRESUMPTIONS! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 229 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.17 |
What I have learned in the Holy Bible is the 'powers of satan'. You say you have the truth, but you don't seem to have the conviction. The first thing I heard in 'testimony' during Sacrament meetings was always, 'I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true church, and I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet.' It began to sound like Robots speaking, or people who have to say it often enough to convince themselves, let alone others. That to me is very sad. What is also very sad is that mormons, in my experience, always speak of God as "Heavenly Father". He is so much more than that. He is the one and only God.... | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Junior Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
GC: Obviously you don't know me and the reference to my conviction shows that. You say : He is so much more than that. He is the one and only God.... I can go for that | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 243 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.243 |
I notice the mormons did not respond to by answer to sp's question of "what corporations does the mormon church own". So I'll put this information on every thread having to do with the mormon, (lds) church. I began my search by typing in Salt Lake City, Ut. Then I typed in 'Deseret Books' because I knew the church owned it. I wound up linking to the Mormon stock index.This index lists almostfifty (50) corporations owned by the Mormon (lds) church, and another dozen or so whp are not included because they do not have the $10 billion required to be considered. Deseret Books alone is, by their own definition, diversified into four main imprints: Deseret Books, Bookcraft, Eagle Gate, and Shadow Mountain. On further study, I have discovered the ceos for these corporations are.....MORMONS. So much for the impression mormons try to give about their church not paying preachers, and how they all pay tithe and build the buildings with their own member's hands. The Mormon Church is You can make your own judgements. | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) New member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
So what if the CEOs of these corporations are Mormon. That doesn't mean that the money used is to pay the leadership of the church, The leadership of the Mormon church is VOLUNTARY...they don't get paid to be the leadership of the church unlike other "churches" that hire professional speakers to be "pastors" and pay them to be so. | ||
| duncan (duncan) Junior Member Username: duncan Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
I was scanning over the posts today and saw a question regarding the origin of Satan. I am in the process of teaching a class on the subject, and thought I would take the liberty of answering. Satan is a created being of God. His origins are referenced in both Isaiah and Ezekiel. He was a perfect being in charge of guarding the very throne of God. Because of his beauty and status, he became consumed in himself and desired to exalt himself to the throne of God. A heavenly battle ensued that led to Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels being cast out. Why would God allow this? If you believe that God has predestined all events (which I do), all of this is part of His plan to bring glory, honor and pleasure to Himself. (See Ephesians 1: 4-14) I apologize for cyber-butting in on a conversation, but I felt moved to answer. Have a blessed day. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 284 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.41 |
duncan, This is an open forum. I agree with what you said about Satan. God has a plan but he also gives us guidance for a reason. Don't you think? I don't have all the answers, but I believe God's plan was and is in his mind, not with us as spirits sitting there with him before we came to earth. What we need is a good lesson about predestination. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 285 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.41 |
nobodyspecial (in God's eyes are special) and if you believe the mormon church is all about generosity and volunteering, more power to you. | ||
| duncan (duncan) Junior Member Username: duncan Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 68.113.113.47 |
GC, Thanks for the response. I agree that we need a lesson on predestination. In fact, I think the church today needs a good dose of doctrine, period. Most people have no idea what they believe or why. They are Methodist, Baptist, Muslim or Mormons because that's the way they were raised. I don't think people have any concept of who God is or what is his nature. Human pride likes to think that God needs us to exist. My response to that is that God is eternally complete in himself as a divine spirit manifested as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God is in perfect communion with Himself, and only created us for His pleasure that we may worship Him. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 51 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Duncan: Puppets on a string - His pleasure is to watch us fall, fail, suffer and beg for His assistance and intervention and forgiveness - sounds horrendously sick to me, more like a school bully than a loving father. Please actually investigate from real LDS books what we believe on this point, it's markedly different from what you say you believe, but makes more sense (especially when seen in relation to the typr of relationship we would each hope to have with our earthly fathers) | ||
| duncan (duncan) Junior Member Username: duncan Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
Joesdad, I have done research on many religions, but haven't spent much time researching LDS. For me, predestination is so simple. The fact that God has set everything in motion, and that nothing can happen that he can't control. In other words, nothing can take God by surprise. Jesus said that not a sparrow can fall to the ground without him knowing. That gives me great comfort. If I thought that the fate of humanity was in the hands of humans, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
I agree with much of what you say, however the ".. only created us for his pleasure .." bit concerns me greatly - if that were true, why would he care if a sparrow fell? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 287 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.62 |
Duncan, would you please further explain for Joesdad and others? He refuses to confirm what is written in his church's books, but denies what is in the one christian book, The Only Godbreathed book, The KJV of the Holy Bible, which he says his church accepts. (as long as it agrees with what his church prophets say is translated correctly) His solution is to pray for comprehension, not just knowledge. I pray he will do so. Now I will answer him on the other thread. | ||
| duncan (duncan) Junior Member Username: duncan Post Number: 42 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
JD, As humans, we sometimes have poor reasoning. Everytime you and I do something, there is a motive or agenda. We almost always do something in order to get something in return. In other words, we are selfish. God is perfect and just in every way. He is self-less, as can be seen in Jesus shedding his blood for our sins. If God was like us, then I agree with you - we would be puppets for his amusement. Fortunately, he is not like us. His pleasure is perfect. I can only go by what the Scripture says regarding his pleasure being good and perfect. The following are a few verses upon which I base my comments: Eph 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Eph 1:9 - Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself: Phil 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Thanks for the dialogue. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Duncan, That still does not explain the REASON for our being, why give us the understanding we have which surely would do little more that allow us to realise we were puppets -why commandments, why choices, why Baptism, why Satan, why allow so much confusion about His word, why allow some to profit at the expense of others in His name if we are just following the predetermined path? I think you may be reading too much into the term pleasure in these verses, it is being used in an old English sense, rather than our modern sense, not in the sense of having fun (pleasure beach) but being content or happy for such things to happen, i.e. they fit in with what he wants to happen. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 55 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: What good is knowledge if we do not understand it? A bit like having a car in the drive but not having a licence! Please give an example of such a refusal. | ||
| duncan (duncan) Junior Member Username: duncan Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
JD, In order to answer your question as to the reason for our being, I can only refer to scripture. It is to bring honor and glory to Him. Verse 17 and verse 23 clearly show this: Romans 9 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, I looked up the NIV, and the meaning is the same. I hope this helps shed some light. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 56 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
Duncan - Please bear with me and excuse my ignorance, but I can't see what on earth that scripture has to do with what I asked - please explain. | ||
| duncan (duncan) Junior Member Username: duncan Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 205.255.224.10 |
JD, Your question, as I saw it, was what is our reason for being and why do we have the knowledge we do. The quick and dirty answer is based on verse 23 of Romans 9. He is demonstrating His glory through us. We were created to worship Him. By giving us the knowledge to know Him more, we are making known His glory. I hope this clarification helps. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 294 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.5 |
joesdad, I do have a car and I drive it. I do not understand about the parts of the engine and exactly how it works, but I trust that it does, with minor care. It was created for that purpose. Your question would be similar to, I have a mother. I don't have to understand her to have knowledge of that. I want to share this poem as it explains how I feel: You are who you are for a reason. You're part of an intricate plan. You're a precious and unique design, Called God's special woman or man. You look like you look for a reason. Our God made no mistake. He knit you together within the womb, You're JUST what he wanted to make. The parents you had were the ones he chose, And no matter how you may feel, They were custom-designed with God's plan in mind, And they bear the Master's seal. No, that trauma you faced was not easy. And God wept that it hurt you so; But it was allowed to shape your heart So that into his likeness you'd grow. You are who you are for a reason, You've been formed for the Master's rod. You are who you are, Beloved, Because there is a God! By Russell Kelfer It is a matter of faith and trust, and he proves, shows me everyday I wake that my faith and trust is well founded. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
Duncan: But why, who will witness this other than us His puppets? - not much glory in that I would have thought. Make it known to Who? GC: Nice poem | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
Duncan: As this is a thread regarding Mormonism, a very brief overview of the churches doctrine on this point. We most certinly believe that God knows the path that each of us will follow. However, we do not believe that he has determined it, but we truly believe in free will and choice. In fact we believe that the first choice we made was between two paths, that following Christ and His plan for us and the other following satan and his plan for us. We know that we followed the former, as we are here experiencing a mortal existence. We also know that one third of the host of heaven followed the latter and were cast out, and will never experience mortality. Within the plan at which Christ is centre, we are given the opportunity to once again choose the way of our Father. The knowledge we had prior to our birth being hidden, to ensure we each have the same start on the path back to Him. We are responsible for the wrongs we do, and the sins we commit (I think we agree on much of what the Saviours role in our lives is at this point). When we die our bodies will seperate from the spirit. We believe at the resurrection we will all be given immortal and perfect physical bodies, but at the judgement which will follow just how faithful we have been to the first choice we made will determine the portion of our Fathers glory that we will enjoy for the rest of eternity. I thought it may be easier to lay out the LDS stall now rather than it be expressed piece-meal through several disjointed comments later. GC: Just one comment / criticism, you show clearly that you do visit and rely upon accounts of LDS doctrine given either on anti-LDS web sites or in such literature (some of the comments you make are evidence of this) - I therefore question very seriously that your " ... trust is well founded." - though you indicate you are not a member of a formal church organisation, you have found yourself, intentionally or not, well within an organisation that is happy to use foul means mixed with fair. I suppose this makes your continual questioning of whether I have researched the beliefs I have seem no more than "foolish questions", as your objections to them have no where near the same standard of objective research as you require of me. No more than I would expect though. | ||
| franklin (franklin) Intermediate Member Username: franklin Post Number: 368 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
Mormons believe that God was once a man. And that man can become a god, equal to God. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 295 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.47 |
I have been reading (again) portions of the Book of Mormon. In Mosiah 15:1-9 it states 'Jesus and God are one God'. Mosiah 15:11 endless damnation with the devil (I wonder where mormons thing the devil will dwell). Mosiah 16:13-15 in and only through Christ ye can be saved--redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very eternal Father. Alma 18:13-16 spirit of lord came upon them , Alma and Helam were baptized together, then Alma baptised the others. (No man gave Alma the authority to baptize). And they were called the Church of God, or the Church of Christ, from that time forward. (why is there church now called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?) Work to support yourselves and those in need, and to those priests (priesthood?) who stood in need. Seems a paradox here. Read 3 Nephi 13:19-34 Lay not up for yourselves treasures on earth, God knows your needs if ye are not of little faith. Shouldn't prophets of Christ have more than a little faith? And why do mormons (ex:my mother) store a two year supply of food, toiletries, candles, medical supplies? It would seem obvious that when JS and his helpers rewrote the Book of Mormon, they weren't sure just what to take out and what to leave in. The Book of Mormon definitely contradicts their teachings. How do mormons reconcile these differences? We will see if they will answer! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 63 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
FRANKLIN: OVERSIMPLISTIC, AND IN FACT WRONG - DO SOME REAL RESEARCH AND STOP REGURGITATING ANTI-LDS LIES - COME ON, YOU ACCUSE US OF ACTING BLINDLY!!! gc: NO PARADOX, GOD AND CHRIST ARE ONE IN PURPOSE AND INTENT, NOT IN BODY - JUST LIKE I AM ONE WITH MY EMPLOYER, BUT DO NOT OCCUPY HIS BODY - SIMPLE AS THAT - ONCE AGAIN LOOKING FAR BEYOND THE MARK IN YOUR INTERPRETATION - ONLY WANTING TO PROVE YOUR INCORRECT THEORIES AND IGNORING THE BASIC TRUTH - VERY FRUSTRATING I BET!! WHO SAYS NO ONE GAVE ALMA AUTHORITY TO BAPTISE? - YOU? CHURCHES NAME - YOU MUST KNOW THIS! YOU CRISTICISE FOOD STORAGE AS WELL! - HEAVENS ABOVE, HAVE YOU RUN OUT OF SUBSTANTIAL CRTICISM? - A VERY GOOD AND SENSIBLE IDEA THAT HAS SAVED THE LIVES OF MANY! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC:Possibly the saddest aspect of your posts is that you really do believe that we will not, or cannot answer what you claim to be honest enquiries. The reason I question the honesty is that it is clear that you already know what the church ACTUALLY teaches on these points, yet you still raise queries that are at odds with these beliefs. Do I understand that because there are millions in the world that are suffering and dying for the want of these “treasures”, that we ensure that we too could suffer only because we do not plan ahead? Please use some logic at least! How can you not agree with, or seek to criticise us because we are encouraged to have a store of food? Do you really think it better if I were to become unemployed or ill that my family scrounge from the state?, how can it be wrong for us to have the means to help our neighbours when they are in need, simply because we have been able to put away a little over time? You say “Work to support yourselves and those in need, and to those priests (priesthood?) who stood in need” – you do not accredit this to anyone, so I assume this is from you. What do you mean? You already know where the Devil will dwell, so why not tell us? Back to chucking mud again ehh?? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: I have just re-read the above, and have assumed your query to be a criticism (they tend to be!) - I apologise if this assumption is incorrect. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 299 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.202 |
You show little faith by "storing up on earth treasures that thieves can break in and steal". Also, "do not concern yourselves what you shall wear, do I not clothe the lilies of the field?" You act like people who are in need are 'scroungers'. If you took the time to meet some of these scroungers, you might find people who once had more material things and education than you who have fallen on hard times. On the one hand you brag about what Mormons GIVE to the needy, then you turn around and call them scroungers. You patronize people. Everything you and I and everyone else has was given to us by God and can be taken away at any time. I have the faith to know that "as Jesus turned a few loaves and a few fishes into enough to feed hundreds with some left over", what he says, he will do. Always has. No man can promise that. Mormons believe 'only the best' will reach a first heaven and 'the rest' will have to make do with the other two. I once asked my mother, "If your neighbors or strangers come to your door, will you share your food storage." She said "if they want to eat they should work for it." What does Jesus say about it. "Sell all you have, give to the poor, and follow me." | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 300 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.202 |
Your church does not even follow what is in your own 'continuation of the bible'. How do you reconcile that. Not the way you have been. First, you asked where the devil came from. Now you ask, where will he dwell? Hell | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 67 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: I take waht you say as being highly offensive as it is and is meant to be. I am not so arrogant as to EXPECT others to fulfil my worldy needs, simply because I have failed to gove any thought ot possible hard times. If someone can store up reserves in case of times of need, but fails to do so EXPECTING others to provide for them, they are scroungers. However, if they fall short because of no fault of theor own and CANNOT put aside a little, then I will share what I have with them. Your statement is arrogant and foolish. God will provide all you need, but to EXPECT Him to do what you could do yourself is NOT faith, it is pure laziness!! We have no "continuation of the bilbe" as you know full well - another GC falsehood! You contnually fail to answer the question as to Satans origin, you see it fair game to criticise my beliefs, by seem to vary very shollow or ill thought out ones yourself - yes it is importnant to know AND understand, otherwise you will be led away by the lies of the foolish as is clearly happening to you right now - your faith lies more with those who massage your anti-LDS ego that in Chirst! - your woeds prove this. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 304 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.233 |
There is no one here massaging my ego, as you put it. I answered the question of Satan's origin. You do not answer anything, only make accusations. I have explained my reasons for exposing the mormon church and it's leaders. What is your reason for insulting me? I am only a diciple of Christ. Being misunderstood by men will always be, and always has been. Christ was the most misunderstood of all. But I will always take him over any man. Do you believe children are accountable for their actions at the age of eight? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 71 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: you have not answered that question at all - you say he is an angel, but fail to say whaere he came from, his pupose, why God was unable or chose not to chastise him, or hold him back from the chaos he caused amongst the angels. Please reread the several threads I have been posting on where you will see over and over where I have answered questions, and in detail - better than one liner attacks! I do not insult you persoanlly as I do not now you, but you cannot be trusted from the postings you have made, they are full of falsehoods. As you must be aware of that, I must question your honesty. What is the purpose for your last question - quite out of odds with what else you say, as you already know the answer, why not ask the question you really want answered? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 310 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.115 |
What is God's purpose once you become God? Are you all going to be his replacements? God forbid. The last question was an afterthought, and again I did not expect you to answer. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 76 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: Again if you really do understnd the doctirne you speak of, you know the answer, and you question is therefore redundant - however, as it is clear you do not understand what you are talking about, I will never become God - sorry it's not the answer you want, but that's your problem not mine. Though your question was an after thought, you fail to explain why you continue to ask questions you know the answers to. In Paul's letter to Timothy he counselled (2 Tim 2:23) "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes" I honestly believe that your only intention is to cause strife, hence you repetition of answered questions, and those to which you personally already have the answer - so much for your life being in accordance with the scriptures, or again do you know better that an Apostle of Christ?? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 312 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.120 |
When I ask joesdad the answer to my questions, I am interested in his beliefs, not the mormon church. Joesdad's answers on the other post are an improvement as he answered for himself, and it is appreciated. I think we should start a thread asking the question 'by being baptized into a church (you can't become a member without being baptized there) are you then able to choose which doctrines and beliefs taught and commanded by those whom you consider are/were prophets, as truth and from God?' My point is whether men (who we admit are not perfect)can and do exploit people by using Christ as their authority. Christ is the "High Priest". He gives those who ask the Holy Spirit. That is our authority. The only authority we need to accept as infallible, because he is infallible and never changes, as churches always do (all churches). The concern is there are people who believe in the original made made doctrines, and those who by either being new members or those who approve of change, cause the controversy that people outside the churches see as "NOT GOD'S DESIRE". Don't shoot the messenger! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 78 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: I think it a good question that would be unfairly dealt with if only discussed in an LDS forum as many churches work on the principle of membership by baptism, including many that you would accept a Christian. Men certainly have for many centuries exploited others in Christ's name, I am shocked at the contents of some of the threads under other subjects or "religions" on Factnet, and their claim to Christainity. As I know from your postings you oppose strongly to organised religion, may I ask, in your view what is the relationship between the early Church - and the chaotic confusion of churches we have now? - do you believe God has given up on the idea? if so, when was this revelation given and to whom? Some of the accusations you level against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, and be made much more strongly against jsut about all of the Catholic and Protestant sects - do you do this, and if not why not? The messenger that play Chinese Whipsers deserves to be shot! | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: a typo again - the and in the penultimate paragraph second line should be can | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: As a total aside I find it amusing the idea of discussing these things with someone I have never met. Obviously I have been able to glean some minor details about you from your postings, but it amuses me at what presumptions others may make about me simply from my written words (there is probably some way of telling everything about a person down to their shoe size, if I could be bothered finding out). I reckon you are in your mid to late fifties, white (or maybe mixed race at some point), have a good college level education (possibly part of a degree course completed?) somewhere around 5'6" tall. You are a Grandmother,and are close to your child(ren?) and Grandchildren. Possibly out of work at the moment due to ill health. You live in the mid-eastern states, and love cheerios? - am I about right?  | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 313 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.34 |
You are correct. Most churches I have attended do require baptism as a requirement to being on their membership rolls. I do not think we should have membership rolls. Christ taught in many places, usually out of doors, sometimes in peoples homes. From my personal experience, organized religion depersonalizes people's relationship with God. People become dependant on church leadership for their decisions, instead of God. According to my personal interpretation of the Bible, the word would never pass away, and before Christ comes again, every ear will hear about him. It is a personal decision, when each person is ready. I don't believe in infant baptism, which some churches use as a form of protection against doom. The bible states clearly that children are exempt and precious, and that we should be more like them; not their education, but an open spirit. So no, I do not think children are accountable at a definite age, though some may be ready,as God chooses. I do not agree with the Catholic Church on many points, but I do believe they worship the same God I do. And I have been to nondenominal churches that I have felt the presence of God. I have also felt that in my home and at the homes of others. I do not believe the Bible is incomplete. I believe it is God inspired, and while there may be errors in spelling and grammer, I have not found the message to be lost in any way. I was also shocked when I came to this Board. I had no idea there were so many different (instead of churches) organizations who profess to teach and believe the word of God. I think it is a shame. As for the personal analysation, you are pretty much correct, except most of my education is self taught. I live on the west coast. So I have an advantage to be able to post after most have. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 314 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.61.34 |
What are Chineze whipsers? New one to me. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: I am surprised! - Chenese Whispers? -a children's game where you start with a message that is whipered to the next in a line, that person and then on to the next etc., usually what happens is that as each person hears or mis-hears the message they end up chanigning it either intentionally or not and the message that reaches the end often bears no resemblance to that started with | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: So far as I understand, the God you believe in was created (described) by the Catholic Church, and makes nonsense of a lot of scriptures in the Bible. Do you in fact believe in that same God? - do you know if the one you believe in was that taught before Constantine? How do you explain away Stephens vision; Christ praying in private to the Father etc? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 318 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.5 |
I can no longer respond to Joesdad; re:his less than honest answers to questions I placed before him on other threads. Yesterday I went shopping at a local store that sells used books. I found 'Gospel Principles' published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The introduction reads as follows: Gospel Principles was written both as a personal study guide and as a teacher's manual. Therefore, you can use this manual in many ways. It can help you- *Build your knowledge and testimony of the gospel. *Answer questions about the gospel. *Study scriptures by topics. *Prepare talks. *Prepare lessonns for family home evening. *Prepare lessons for Church meetings. This book was published 1978, 1979,1981,1985,1986,1988,1992,1995,1997 Our premortal life with God. Unit One Chapter 1 Our Father in Heaven.... I will not type the whole chapter. God is the one supreme and absolute being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things What kind of being is God? Because we are made in his image, we know that God has a body that looks like ours. His eternal spirit is housed in a tangivle body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22) God's body, however, is perfected and glorified, with a glory beyond all description. God is perfect. He is a God of love, mercy, charity, truth, power, faith, knowledge, and judgement. He has all power. He knows all things. He is full of goodness. All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him--a god. In additional scriptures they list Joseph Smith--History 1:17 (Father and Son are separate) Our Heavenly Family Chapter 2 We are children of our Heavenly Father God is not only our ruler and creator; he is also our Heavenly Father. "All men and women are... leterally the sons and daughters of Deity...Man, as a spiret, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal (physical) body." Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ (see D&C 93:21), so he is literally our elder brother (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p.26). Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities, If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as the are. We Developed Personalities and Talents While We Lived in Heaven. Our Heavenly Parents Desired to Share Their Joy with Us. Our heavenly parents provided us with a celestial home more glorious and beautiful than any place on earth. We were happy there. Yet they knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left them for a time. They wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that they have. To do this, we needed to leave our celestial home to be tested and to gain experience. We needed to choose good over evil.If we passed our tests, we would recieve the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have recieved. (See D&C 93:30-34) (For the moment, I have skipped to chapter 21 titled) The Gift of the Holy Ghost In chapter 7 we learned that the Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead. He is a spirit in the form of a man. He does not have a body of flesh and bones. He can be in only one place at a time, but his influence can be everywhere at once. There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. What is the Gift of the Holy Chost? A person may be temporarily guided by the Holy Ghostwithout receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.However, this guidance will not be continuous unless the person is baptized and recieves the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Chost. There is no guarantee that the person will receive inspiration and guidance from the Holy Ghost just because the elders have laid their hands on his, or her head. Each person must "receive the Holy Ghost." This means that the Holy Ghost will come to usonly when we are faithful and desire help from this heavenly messenger (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg. 313) To be continued | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
GC: Come on, be specific about your accusations, where and how exactly have I lied. I have made it clear we do not believe we can become God, but can become as God, We can never repace or become equal to Him, He will always be our God. What in the excerpts you show above do not agree with what I have said on these several threads? Anyone reading this, pop alog to an LDS Chapel, ask for a copy of that book and you'll get it free, mention how you came to know of it - then learn what we believe form the horses mouth not the mouth of someone who only wants to bring the church down and therefore posts lies, and repeats false accusations, takes quotes out of context then calls people liars and runs away GC: I hoped you had a better moral standing than this! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 324 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.57 |
Cont. from post March 3, 1:49 p.m. THE LIFE OF JESUS CHRIST The life of Christ was predicted long before his birth. An angel told Adam that the Savior's name would be Jesus Christ. Enoch saw that Jesus would die upon the cross and be resurrected. Noah and Moses also testified of him. About eight hundred years before the Savior was born on the earth, Isaiah forsaw his life. In a modern revelation the Savior described how great his suffering was, saying it caused him "to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit. Shortly after his resurrection, the savior appeared to the Nephites and established his Church in the Americas. The Atonement Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Council of the Twelve gave the following issustration to show how christ's atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part. "Let me tell you a story--a parable. "There once was a man who wanted something very much. It seemed more important than anything else in his life. In order for him to have his desire, he incurred a great debt. "He had been warned about going into that much debt, and particularly about his creditor. But it seemed so important for him to do what he wanted to and to have what he wanted right now. He was sure he could pay for it later. "So he signed a contract. He would pay it off some time along the way. He didn't worry too much about it, for the due date seemed such a long time away. He had what he wanted now, and that was what seemed important. "The creditor was always somewhere in the back of his mind, and he made token payments now and again, thinking somehow that the day of reckoning really would never come. "But as it always does, the day came, and the contract fell due. The debt had not been fully paid. His creditor appeared and demanded payment in full. (The story goes on to say the man asked for mercy and a creditor appeared and made this offer: "Then,' said the benefactor, 'you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.' "And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death, but because of him, if we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father. (I want to say within all this are biblical references, placed so as to comply with mormon teachings.) to be continued (I hope anyone who is interested in learning the mormon lie will go to the lds church and ask for a copy.) to be continued | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 328 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.89 |
Please go to "to all antimormons" thread to see the end of this book. It answers the question once and for all, "Do Mormons believe they can become God"? A clue, the answer is a profound 'YES, and I have the book to prove it. A book not denied by the mormon poster. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 103 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
GC: Derrrrrrrrrrrr once again, we CANNOT become God - you are so blinkered as to not be able to see the difference between what LDS really believe and what you've been told we believe - you only ever read these items with an eye to "exposing the evils of mormonism" and not to be honest and truthfull as to what we believe - da de da I've lost count of the number of times thishas been pointed out to you, but of course it runs contrary to your agenda. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 331 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.229 |
You read the mormonism post exposing the teachings of your church and you continue to deny it. Well, it is out there for all to see. My agenda, as you choose to call it is completed now. I can go on to do other work for My Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. There is no room in heaven for your type of god. God help you if you continue on your path of destruction. | ||
| arron (arron) Junior Member Username: arron Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.43.88 |
GOD did not create satan ... GOD created lucifer, who became satan when he fell. GOD is still in control and always will be as he has been all along no one, person place ot thing will ever be in complete control but GOD | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 106 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Arron: are we playing semantics | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 243 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 63.148.234.6 |
Arron GOD did not create satan ... GOD created lucifer, who became satan when he fell. Interesting…I had always thought that Lucifer was a synonymous name with Satan. What was Lucifer? One of God’s angels? Was Lucifer special or different from God’s other angels? In addition, you imply that after Lucifer fell, he was no longer considered created by God. Now we know that God created Adam. So, by extension, after Adam fell, is mankind no longer considered to be created by God? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 335 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.21 |
New book titled "Leaving the Saints" by author Martha Nibley Beck, appears on Good Morning America; explains why she left the church. Her father was considered 'mormon church royalty', Hugh Nibley. Please see: "Why People Hate Mormons" post, 3/7/05 | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 345 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.125 |
IF ANY MAN OR WOMAN WANTS TO BECOME A GOD OR GODDESS, JOIN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS. Joseph Smith, first socalled prophet of the lds church said, "This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God...HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US;....God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, The same as Jesus Christ himself did." From 'Gospel Principles', book published by Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, page 305. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 346 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.125 |
Just so there is no further confusion, read further; Our Heavenly Father knows our trials, our weaknesses, and our sins. He has compassion and mercy on us. He wants us to succeed even as he did. paragraph following one in previous post by gc. page 302 of same book states under BLESSINGS OF EXALTATION; 2. THEY WILL BECOME GODS. Discussion..List some of the blessings that will be given to those who are exalted. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 122 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.252.64.33 |
Yaakov: You see why those such as Arron do not understand LDS doctrine, they fail to properly understand it, just as they fail to understand what they think they believe themselves. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 477 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Yaakov and Joe: Your father created you as his son. What you have become as an adult, YOU "created." For instance, say that you were "Sonny" when you were 6, but at 35 you were known as "Doctor Jones." Same basic idea as starting as Lucifer and becoming known as Satan. I can understand how Aaron would want to make this distinction, rather than implying that God is in any way to blame for Satan, and it makes perfect sense, so why argue about it? ;) | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 58 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Solopilot.... or others who know the answer. Is the satan thing or intrepretation of the words part of the BoM words or is this a church interpretation. For me if you say god created everything then he created Satan. If your church interprets all of gods creations as brothers and sisters then it is open for different meanings. But the meanings and interpretations if used as a doctrine should be known as our view etc. It will be open for debate and heated discussions if against the mainstreme thinking. I would like to be directed to where in the mormon scriptures or text that this is refering to. In line with the brotherhood of everyman and woman as gods sons and daughters, I take that does mean all animals to. Some people debate with me when I say that the most important thing god gave all animals is life and I do not see why we have the right to take it. I interpret thy shall not kill as so, not as thy shall not kill (man) I do not hold it against people who do chose to kill animals, for sport or food, thats their decision. I have the same stance on abortion and on euthanasia. I dont think if Jesus was to return that he would be the type of guy to go for a pig shoot then have a few beers around the BBQ. Nulla | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 485 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Nulla: Taking things a little out of order, the scripture is mistranslated as "Thou shalt not kill" when actually it says "Thou shalt not murder." This does imply that it only counts toward humans. All of God's creations are not brothers and sisters. People are, as we were made in God's image. Rocks are not. Lower animals are not. Those of us made in God's image are his children, and thus are brothers and sisters. Jesus said it himself, in the New Testament, that God is his father and our father. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 52 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
God Was his Father by Position of him now being in the flesh when he said such. The heavenly Father held a higher position, due to the fact that the second part of the Trinity(the Lord) Jesus became flesh. Jesus had no problem making himself equal to the Father, this is why the Jews were going to stone him, because he claimed he was GOD . THE Great "I AM ". | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 60 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.0.155.232 |
Solopilot, so to kill and to murder are different. You may say I take it out of context. To me killing animals is murder, take it out of context if you like. This is not the thread to talk about this topic, but I see no reason to kill animals other than for mans lust for sport and to eat meats. Both of which I and many others live without. People do not like to change their meat eating habits and will defend it like a religion. I live with the fact that I do not eat animal products nor kill animals with intent. My decision and mine alone. I dont think there are animal lib threads here. Back on the Satan bit. Can a mormon please direct me to their scriptures or interpretation of this. Sorry but I went off topic. Nulla | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 491 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Steelsword: Jesus never made himself equal with God. He was constantly referring to his Father in Heaven as being superior. It was God's will that Jesus bowed to at Gethsemane. Nulla: Yes, killing and murder are different. If you kill a plant, is that murder? If a lion kills a child, is that murder? If God had built us only with plant-eating teeth, I would agree with you that we're not supposed to eat meat. But I'm curious, if you are a Bible-only, Bible-has-all-doctrine Christian, where do you get the doctrine of not eating meat? The Book of Job has a number of scriptures indicating that Lucifer was a son of God. A two-page PDF which explains this -- referring mostly to non-LDS scholars and historical sources -- is at: http://www.fairlds.org/apol/brochures/LuciferJesus.pdf Read the footnotes, too. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Solo "This is the doctrine of Christ , and the only true doctrine of the Father , Son , & of the Holy Ghost ,which is ONE GOD WITHOUT END AMEN. (2 Nephi 31:21). John 1;1 IN THE BEGINING THE WAS THE WORD, & THE WORD WAS WITH GOD ,THE WORD WAS GOD. Isiah 9:16 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given,and the government shall be upon his shoulders,and his name shall be called wonderful,counselor, THE MIGHTY GOD,THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE. 1 Tim 3:16 God was manifest in the Flesh. EXODUS 3:14 and God said unto moses I AM THAT I AM,and he said , thus shalt thou sayunto the children of Isreal, I AM have sent me unto you. John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, verily verily i say unto you, before Abraham was I AM. John 8:59 the jews picked up stones to stone him. the jews understood that jesus was making himself equal to god .Why can't you? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
I may even stand corrected Jesus wasn't saying he was equal to God , But that he was GOD "THE GREAT I AM ", but the Jews took it to mean that he was saying he was GOD. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
It was the Flesh that bowed at Gethsemane. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 768 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.62.6 |
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil; For verily I say unto you, on jot nor one tittle hath not passed away from the law, but in me it hath all been fulfilled. Therefore those things which were of old time, which were under the law, in me are all fulfilled." This is Jesus speaking to the people. When he used the word 'all' did he mean 'all'? | ||
| nulla (nulla) Member Username: nulla Post Number: 65 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 202.173.180.87 |
Solopilot. I appreciate your comments and understand your views. As I said I take that commandment to the letter and understand why others don't. All fruits and vegies are there for us as gods creation. I rejoice in the fact that he has given us the means to survive and live in harmony with other animals and plants on planet earth For me to kill is to take the life of another. To murder is to do so premeditated or with intent. Your view of animals is different than mine. I am sorry to bring the topic up as it will only cause distraction. As I said people will back their meat eating habits like religion. I have a lot of documentation and info on the subject gathered by myself for over 30 years and I am very active in animal rights. I would prefer to keep such matters off this thread. Solopilot Thanks for the link re Satan. I am busy today and will catch up with my readings later. I am not familiar with the mormon views on this and would like to understand further. Nulla | ||
| yaakov (yaakov) Intermediate Member Username: yaakov Post Number: 326 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.205.188.53 |
steelsword I may even stand corrected Jesus wasn't saying he was equal to God , But that he was GOD "THE GREAT I AM ", but the Jews took it to mean that he was saying he was GOD. Many Christians took it that way, they worship the guy! | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Intermediate Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 497 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.57 |
Steel: You're saying that Jesus was just flesh, and had no spirit? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.133 |
You know i'm not saying that. I'm saying the part that was man (flesh) Not the part that was GOD (Spirit). Christ humbled himself in the flesh, In the flesh he was made lower than the angels. CHRIST WAS FULLY GOD & FULLY MAN. I Know it's hard for you to understand. Homo ousian: Jesus & God were of the same substance. Not as the Arians thought, Homo i ousian: like nature. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.133 |
Not one in purpose , BUT ONE GOD! One God in nature & substance. They are not 3 gods working together as one , but rather One GOD in Three persons, FATHER , SON & HOLY SPIRIT. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.133 |
Yaakov , for i still worship him, for no one come unto the father but through me (CHRIST). | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 507 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.164 |
Steel: We were made in God's image. Spirit AND BODY. Jesus had a body, he had a spirit, and he prayed to his Father, whom he called "my God, and your God." The Jesus of the Bible looked up to someone as HIS God. Someone other than Jesus -- or he was talking to himself. The Jesus of the Bible said "Not as I will but as thou wilt." Was he talking to himself? You think so. This doctrine of yours is not found in the Bible. It appeared hundreds of years later. If we were made in God's image, and God is "three persons," then how come if you go down the street talking to yourself they take you away in a rubber truck? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 786 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.62 |
God said, "My ways are not your ways." Man cannot create anything from nothing. I prefer the original. Can any man create a storm, or calm it, by his own power. No! Can man breathe life, the soul, into a piece of clay? No! Mormons try to lay claim to the power of God. They hope to borrow his creation for their own devices. Where does it say anywhere that this is God's plan. What God HAS offered us is not good enough for mormons. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 787 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.53.62 |
Who is making who look loco, di ba? That may be your intent. Mine is to expose the false teachings of mormonism. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 79 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
No Jesus was talking to the part of the triune God that was in a higher position than him,because he took the lower position when he became flesh. Solo, Did Jesus Have a Physical Body before He came to the earth in the Flesh? Genesis: 1:26 God said let us make man in OURImage . Who do you think OUR refers to? OUR Being the Trinity,But of course Christ did not have a Body at this time Because according to you he was the first spiritual creation. so when the word OUR was use , could it not mean that we are created in the spiritual image of GOD? When i look in the mirror i see an image but it is not physical. | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) New member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
HOW can something be one thing and 3 separate things at the same time? its not at all logical So you are saying that, if my wife and I have a car, and YOU want a ride in OUR car...my wife and I are one person} | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 792 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.146 |
Your body has parts. Head, arms, legs, torso. They are all you, agreed? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 793 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.146 |
You and your wife are One, as in 'couple'. You became One when you were married. The two of you have ownership of one car. Unless you cut the car in half. (come to think of it, I saw that done in a movie once. It was pretty funny) Please don't think I'm laughing at you, nobodyspecial. Many people have the same question. | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) New member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
GC: first, the body thing doesn't really work like you are trying to say. Can these parts do things on their own or think for themselves? No they all require ME to make them do stuff. But still, for sake of argument...If I chop off my arm, do I point at it and call it "me"? no its "My arm". So they are kinda separate, but they are not really separate. I do agree that my wife and I are one, but we are not physically one person, we are a team, 2 SEPARATE people working and thinking and owning stuff together. when all is said and done, both "explainations" you gave still show that there are multiple things working together to form one thing...not one thing that "IS" multiple SEPARATE things. Only for convienence do we refer to them as "ONE" 1)The Father 2)The Son 3)The Holy Ghost 3 SEPARATE beings working, thinking, creating, teaching, doing together as ONE Godhead. Not ONE God splitting off into 3 separate beings. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 795 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.180 |
For convenience? For whose convenience? Mormons want to be gods, so yes it would be convenient for you. The Bible says there is one God, Jesus said he and his father are one; that is good enough for me. "I am in the Father, and the Father in me. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." These verses are in your book of mormon. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 796 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.180 |
If, as mormons believe, Jesus is only the first son of God, how could Jesus be the beginning. The father would have been 'before' the son. Where did your Heavenly Father come from? Who do you believe the Father's Father was? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.143 |
Again, here we have a Jesus that was created as the first spiritual child of GOD, AGain John:1:1 refutes this . The greek text use the word: Homo ousian : same substance (meaning ONE ) The Mormons want ot use: Homo i ousian: like nature (Meaning they are seperate ,but have a like nature & work together as a team. (Sorry but the greek doesn't say this. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.143 |
Nobody special , they have proven in science that ONE molecule of water can be ,when subjected to the right temperature , 3 forms liquid , gas & ice , not seperate molecule working together as one , but one molecule working as three forms. Check your science. Your Question : how can something be one thing & three seperate things at the same time? Its not at all logical? Sorry your logic has been proven wrong. (Message edited by steelsword on April 27, 2005) | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) New member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
gc: for the mere convienence of speech, and avoiding redundancy by refering to the group rather than list the members of the group everytime. (ex: my wife's and my car...we say it is OUR car, we don't say it is my car and it is her car, its just the nature of OUR language) steel: OK...lets furhter this science...first of all, Water is not an element. That ONE molecule of water is made up of 3 SEPARATE molecules (2 hydrogen, 1 oxygen) coming together to form water, it wouldn't and can't be water unless this was the case. Also, your example here is saying that one thing CAN be 3 diferent things under different conditions, but still not at the same time...are there any conditions where water can be all 3 and maintain those separate forms at the same time? Is there a temperature where water won't freeze but also in the same container under the same conditions have Ice that won't melt? Or where water can boil but not turn into a vapor, or that vapor not condensing and becoming water? Can the ice instantly become a vapor without becoming a liquid first? Anyway in the end, it all is still water, and not separate things. My logic and question still stands. In order for my logic to be proven wrong, you'd have to find a way that the water can also be nitrogen, helium, and sulfuric acid...all at the same time under the same conditions. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 802 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 |
You can't answer the question? Who is your Heavenly Father's father? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 803 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 |
Mormons have their own language. To them, first doesn't mean first, last doesn't mean last. Beginning doesn't mean beginning, end doesn't mean end. Alpha doesn't mean beginning, Omega doesn't mean end. First doesn't mean first, and last doesn't mean last. God doesn't mean God, and men are angels, and Christ is the brother to evil and the son of Good. Adam is Michael, and Eve is not only Adam's wife, but God's too. Jesus was married to the Mary's, and black is no more a curse, but it once was a curse. Joseph Smith was an admitted small time crook and treasure seeker, wrote his own bible, and married married women and single women but he will sit on the right hand of God, not Jesus Christ, and will judge the people of his generation, even though they were probably baptized by him already, before or after they were dead. Jesus Christ is just our brother, and the God of this world, along with Adam, and Joseph, and whoever the prophet decides the people need a change. If you aren't married in the temple you can't be exalted, but you can still go to one of the highest kingdoms, though no one seems to know who will go to the other two, and if you don't make it there, you still have two lower kingdoms to go to. Wow! Ain't mormonism with all it's truths? grand? How can mere mortals question any of this? But then again, we shouldn't even be talking about this, as it is unchristian to offend such (can't think of a good name) great godmakers. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 804 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 |
And it gets better. You can be one of these gods. Yes, follow the mormon leader, do a lot of work, don't ask questions because the prophet said when he speaks, that's it. If you question him, you question God. Good luck!! | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 805 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.4 |
Oh I'm so sorry. I should have put such serious issues in a more serious thread. I hope I didn't offend anyone. There's really nothing funny about any of this. God willing, you will see that. | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) New member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
God is my Heavenly father, just like he is yours, and everyone elses...even Jesus (except in his case he is also his literal father) what do you want a name or something...ok, he is Bob from Ohio of course I can't answer that question...can you? That is an absurd question to ask because you know that it can't be answered...by ANYONE, so you use it to try and prove that we are wrong or we don't know our own doctrine. I believe that he at one time was like us...he has a God and he was able to acheive god like status...not power over his god, or to replace God in anyway, but the privilage and ability to be like him and create his own world. That, to me, makes much more sense that God just *POOF* appearing outta nowhere and deciding "hey I feel like making a planet." There is no teaching that says exactly "who" he is, or was before he was God, or where he exactly came from. There are only fabricated opinions of man, based on their own interpretaion of what little we have about "who" God is. Really it is insignificant "who" he is/was. It would be like asking "Who is Red?" I don't mean like who appears to be colored red...literally Who is the actual color red? Does red have a name? Where did red come from? Who was red before it became red? All that is important is that he is our creator, our God, our Father. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 809 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.60.113 |
You are in a very sad state of affairs. You see, Christians have the answer. All right there in the Holy Bible. God wasn't created, God didn't progress. If you would do just a little studying with a prayerful heart you will understand too. God is omnipotent, omnipresent, infinite, Eternal, Immutable, unchangeable, Invisible, incomprehensible, all power, all mercy, all love, Perfect, unsearchable. If you will just take the time to study the definitions of him that are all throughout the Bible, you will begin to understand. Could all of these definitions be errors of writers? You must know in your heart of hearts. One mistranslation, maybe, two maybe, over and over and over again by writers at different times, do you really think so? This is probably the most powerful truth you can know. It can be yours just for the asking. Just between you and Him. You are the only one who will stand before him. No man or organization can do it for you. | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 92 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.69.138.142 |
Water is water, you can't drink 2 parts Hydrogen and call it water. their you go again trying to seperate. Isiah : There are no Gods created before and neither will there be after me. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 810 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.60.113 |
I want to just add, you are not nobodyspecial. He thinks you are special enough to send his only begotten son to die for you. You are very special. | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 269 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Steelsworld: A fantastic anology - the 3 atoms never lose their own identity - they are 3 and seperate, well done! GC: I get it now, you worship the definitions, we worship the true and living God. | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) New member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
GC: ok then...answer you own question then "WHO is God"? your examples are WHAT god is and while true, all definitions desperately made to try to define the almost indefinable. OK you are right, one maybe two....but when others start making translations/interpretations based upon those mistranslations, there becomes a big problem not doesn't there. Are you trying to suck up to me or something? Of course I know that I am VERY special, and I know that Jesus died for me, and the rest of humanity. I am by no means down on myself or anything, I just couldn't think of a spiffy name. Gee...Sorry Steel: But water would not be water unless the 3 atoms come together. Water is not on the periodic table of elements. I'm not at all trying to say that you could drink 2 parts of hydrogen and call it water. Paul: (1 cor. 8:5,6 [NIV]) 5: For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords") 6: yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Note first of all in 5 “MANY gods”…also note in 6 that God, the Father…and Jesus Christ are refer at 2 different times with 2 different titles (one is the Father and one is the Lord), meaning, oh my goodness, 2 different beings and not being one in the same | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) New member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
joesdad: yea, makes it kinda easy to prove a point when the person you are trying to prove it to, proves it for you. Which, BTW, the logic and question is still waiting to be "proven wrong" When can something...ANYTHING...be ONE thing and multiple SEPARATE other things at the SAME TIME? anyone? | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
They are 3 and seperate ,but one GOD, in Three persons. | ||
| egk (egk) Intermediate Member Username: egk Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 147.72.101.2 |
Hi NobobySpecial, I dealt with this very issue in the thread "THe Catholic Church and its Unbiblical Teachings" in the section for Catholic Sects. The post was on March 27, 2005. The problem is for us with finite minds to comprehend the infinite. For example, there are the same number of fractions between 1 and 2 as there are between the numbers 0 and 3. This can be proven mathematically. Now our finite minds say, "this cannot be! How can I have all the factions between 0 and 3, and all the factions between 1 and 2 which are contained in the fractions between 0 and 3 and yet find that both groups have the same number of fractions?" Yet this is a mathematical fact. God, being infinite, can have 3 infinite and separate personalities who are both individually and together the same one God. EGK | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 811 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.63.134 |
1. Everything which has a beginning has a cause. 2. The universe has a beginning. 3. Therefore the universe has a cause. The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning, as will be shown below. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn't need a cause. In addition, Einstein's general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun with matter and space. Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole Universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time -- God is 'the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity' (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn't have a cause. In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown fro the Laws of Thermodynamics, The most fundamental laws of the physical sciences. * 1st Law: The total amount of mass energy in the universe is constant. * 2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum. If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever., otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable evergy --the 'heat death' of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible. So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down. If you accept that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause, it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause -- no one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. So would all law enforcement, if the police didn't think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house. Also, the universe cannot be self-caused -- nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity. iN SUMMARY * The universe (including time etself) can be shown to have had a beginning. * It is unreasonable to believe something could begin to exist without a cause. * The universe therefore requires a cause, just as Genesis !:1 and Romans 1:20 teach. * God, as creator of time, is outside of time. Since therefore He has no beginning in time, He has always existed, so doesn't need a cause. | ||
| nobodyspecial (nobodyspecial) New member Username: nobodyspecial Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.147.9.111 |
So...to you, God has Schizophrenia are you saying that Jesus is God? or that the Holy Ghost is God? ok, did the Holy Ghost die for our sins? Do we pray to Jesus in the name of the Father? Why didn't Jesus say "my will be done" or "I am my God and you God" if they are 3-in-1 then surley they are interchanable in this way if they truly are on in the same, they would know it and speak accordingly when referring to themselves. But since the refer to each other separately, they are separate beings. | ||
| truthseen (truthseen) Junior Member Username: truthseen Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 146.243.221.74 |
I sometimes browse around on these threads and read through. There's one common thing that I find in many of these threads. The religious "maintainers" only quote the Bible. I mean really, only the Bible. It would be so refreshing to read someone backing up their convictions with more than the Bible or how someone interprets it. There have been so many translations. It's nearly impossible to figure its true origin. I'm beginning to clearly see that there are three things in play in all these cults. Money, power and influence. 1. Money - basic need for maintenance 2. Power - there are individuals who feel very secure when being under control. It's sort of not having to take responsibility for their mistakes. "My religious beliefs mandate my actions". Can you see the cultishness. 3. Influence - so to gain a seat at the round table of national as well as international discussions. Keep those cash registers singing! And keep those congregants in check! Truthseen | ||
| truthseen (truthseen) Junior Member Username: truthseen Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 146.243.221.74 |
I sometimes browse around on these threads and read through. There's one common thing that I find in many of these threads. The religious "maintainers" only quote the Bible. I mean really, only the Bible. It would be so refreshing to read someone backing up their convictions with more than the Bible or how someone interprets it. There have been so many translations. It's nearly impossible to figure its true origin. I'm beginning to clearly see that there are three things in play in all these cults. Money, power and influence. 1. Money - basic need for maintenance 2. Power - there are individuals who feel very secure when being under control. It's sort of not having to take responsibility for their mistakes. "My religious beliefs mandate my actions". Can you see the cultishness. 3. Influence - so to gain a seat at the round table of national as well as international discussions. Keep those cash registers singing! And keep those congregants in check! Truthseen | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Was it me or did nobody special start to feel real special about himself, prove , by mormon definition only. Anology : Water = God it has 3 parts that make up water (God) although these three parts are seperate personages they are One God. Even again, the book of Mormon says they are one GOD. The bible says one GOD. John 1:1 Again you can't refute the word here is Homo ousias , because in every greek text that is what it is. Meeaning same substance Not, homo i ousias : or like substance. Your Jesus was created ,Mine was the begining & the end, the alpha & omega. Psalm 90, 1-2 LORD, from everlasting to everlasting thou ART GOD. (NOT A GOD) | ||
| steelsword (steelsword) Member Username: steelsword Post Number: 99 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 207.192.2.34 |
Somebody , special, can you quote D&C 20:28 for us? Alma 11:44? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 812 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.120 |
One of the more curious evolutions in mormon theology is that of God. Any active member of the lds will now tell you that Jehovah of the Old Testament was in fact Jesus and the father of this Jehovah-Jesus is God or Elohim. In fact, a recent proclamation confirms this changed belief. Goth of these supposed beings have bodies. When this same Mormon begins to read some of the writings of the early church leaders (including the first edition of the Book of Mormon) they are generally surprised to find out that this wasn't always the doctrine of the church. Up to the turn of the 20th Century the LDS Church taught, like the rest of Christianity, that Jehovah was the father. With the turn of the century and new interpretations, such as that given by James Talmage in Jesus the Christ and The Articles of Faith,the concept started to change. Josehp Smith Jr. believed Jehovah and Elohim to be one in the same (The Father) and Jesus to be Jesus (The Son). Until the early 20th Century it was taught that Jehovah was the name of God the Father, along with Elohim. Biblical scholars state that Elohim is a Hebrew plural for God and JHVH was the symbol for the unspeakable name of I AM. Even the LDS hymnist sings: "Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer." W.W. Phelps, Praise to the Man Joseph Smith taught: The Lord (Jehovah) hath spoden through Isaiah (ziii: 1), saying, "Behold my servant whom I uphold--mine elect in whom my soul delighteth;" evidently referring to the lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, chosen, or elected by the Father. (1 Peter 1:20). "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by HIm do believe in God to serve Him in the redemption of the world, to ba a covenant of the people (Isaiah xlii:6), for a light to the gentiles, and the glory of His people Israel, having ordained Him to be the judge of the quick until dead (Acts x:42), that through Him forgiveness of sins might be preached (Acts xiii:38), unto all who would be obenient unto His Gospel." (Mark xvi: 16,17). joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol 4 Ch. 14, p.256 ...trusting in the arm of Jehovah, the Eloheim, who sits enthroned in the heavens... js, History of the Church, Vol 5, Ch 5 But may the Almight jehovah shield and defend me from all their power, and prolong my days in peach, that I may guide His people in righteousness, until my head is white with old age. Amen js History of the Church, Vol. 5, Ch 9 Brigham Young taught this doctrine too: Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 9:240 Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:206 John Taylor also taught that Jesus Christ and Jehovah were separate being: If Jehovah Jesus or is he the same as Elohim? that speaks to Enoch, Noah, Abraham and moses and the Prophets of the Old Testament? Is it our Eternal FAther or Jesus who was known as Jehovah? If it our Eternal FAther or Jesus who was known as Jehovah? We have had several discussions on this question, but we seem to be hopelessly divided. Some of our members maintain that it is Jesus Christ who represented the FAther, others that it was the Father himself. (Joseph F. Smith goes on to express the current view that jehovah is the God of the Old Testament and the same being as Jesus.) Joseph F. Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol 1, p. 13 Spencer Kimball wrote decades later that he had a difficult time accepting the doctrine: The teachings of Spencer W. kimball, p. 8 It seems strange that a church that has direct revelation and that claims that its founder actually spoke face to face with both God and Jesus could be so confused on such a seemingly basic doctrine. This isn't the only doctrine which now rigidly in place despite very different origins. The Melchizedek Priesthood has also evolved over the years. Joseph Smith's own version of his visitations from God the Father and Jesus rapidly evolved during his lifetime. The first few versions didn't even mention the supposed fact that two personages were involved. The idea of God having a body didn't come about until 1835 or shortly thereafter. lds-mormon.com | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 271 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
Does the Bible actually say, point blank that God does NOT have a body? I don't want some lame interpretation, I mean if it is so important, someone must have said something about it. Steelsworld: Nope, 2 atoms of H (say Heavenly Father & Jesus Christ coz they both have bodies) and one O (Holy Ghost coz he doesn't have a body)they WORK TOGETHER to make water, but can owrk seperately and independantly, never becoming one physically, but one in their "intent" to make water. egk: Come on, not that brain frazzling one again  - sorry for not getting back to the Catholic Thread - but one quick question if you don't mind - where does the Bible use the "mystery" theory in the way you do? Ta. Steelsworld: Give us a break - you know we don't take those verses to read as you would have them read - so what is the point of bringing them up? GC: very neat cut & pasting - look forward to seeing some original work though, luv ya  | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 814 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.86 |
I wish I knew how to cut and paste. It would save me time, but I would rather write down what I have read first, so that I have a better understanding of it. Then I can type it here. My abilities as an author aren't that great, so I find it important to "quote" in order that sharing with you all cannot be misconstrued as "my opinion". When it is 'my opinion', I have been saying so. I find that the honest way. John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 815 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.54.86 |
Now, can anyone show us in the Bible or the bom where it says God is a man? | ||
| joesdad (joesdad) Intermediate Member Username: joesdad Post Number: 274 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 62.253.215.25 |
GC: WE are spirit and body, so that one I'm afraid doesn't cut the mustard | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 816 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.138 |
Where does the Bible or the bom say that God is spirit and body? | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 817 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.51.138 |
When people skirt around the questions, it is usually because they cannot answer the question. Nobodyspecial finally admitted the truth, then being embarassed by doing so, went on the attack. He shouldn't feel that way. Christians should always be willing to admit we don't understand everything. We don't need to as our God takes care of our needs. It is only when we attempt to become him that we deny him. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Advanced Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 512 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.31 |
Nobody: Keith, is that you, finally arriving here? If so, glad you made it. Steel: It seems that you are now arguing on my side of the fence. Three personalities, one purpose. To put it another way, on the other side of that flimsy locked door of an airliner you have a captain, a copilot and an engineer. The captain is in charge, even when the copilot has the stick and is flying the plane. They don't take votes, what the captain says is what goes. To you, back in Economy, all you know is that United got you to LAX, you don't even know w |
