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ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Intermediate Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 279
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 6:32 pm: | 
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This is a letter from an old timer from the Chattanooga Days. There will be another Installment coming soon. This is posted with permission...
Well, some of my own musings about how The Vine
House/TT shifted from being a totally open, inclusive,
accepting and cooperative group of evangelical
Christians to a controlling, guarded, paranoid,
religious elitist living in isolation from the rest of
the broader Christian community is as follows (here
again, its just my little interpretation of things. ..
it would be good to hear from others from that early
time period for their take. . . reality has lots of
levels): the whole VH/TT experience flows from Gene's
experience as: 1. A male. 2. A white male. 3. A
white male raised in a old southern segregated city.
4. A white male raised in an old segregated
southern city who was also emotionally enmershed in
the religious subculture of a fundamentalist Christian
church, the Christian and Missionary Alliance
Church. 5. A white male raised in an old segregated
southern city and who belonged to an old southern
fundamentalist Christian church, who came of age in
the social upheaval of the 60s and early 70s; who
strayed from his own upbringing, developed a problem
with alcohol, failed as a husband, father, and as an
employee. His story is a great story of a prodigal
son who found his way back to his fundamentalist
Christian roots, but with a hippie Christian
twist. His background and upbringing plays the major
part in how he does theology and how his management
style.
Gene meet a need in Chattanooga in the early 70s
that few could: he could relate to the down and out,
searching youth of the era. Remember, there was a
huge "generation gap" between the adult generation of
the late 60s and early 70s, and the youth culture that
developed. While other churches and ministers may
attempt to talk to them, there was such a cultural
divide between the square world of mainstream society,
and the youth culture, that it could not be bridged.
Gene was one of the few people who had lived in both
worlds. He was advidly sought to talk to these
drop-outs, manyHe had been there. He was one of them,
but before his own Fall, he had also lived in the
middle-class world of having a college education,
holding several semi-professional jobs. . . Gene could
talk to the local business people about the need to
help young people find God and get off drugs, and he
could also comfortably "rap" with the kids who had
done tons of acid and lived off rock concerts and
alienation. He was unpretentious in his dress and
tastes, and saw as many did, the emptiness of American
materialism. The Gene I saw and meet was sincere and
compassionate towards people. He could admit his
mistakes in open groups, asks for the prayers of
others; humble, approachable, open to what others
thught about the Bible, beliefs, etc.. . .looking
back, Gene really didn't know much about the Bible or
the fine and conflicting world of different schools of
evangelical interpretations. . Gene would read from
his well thumber Amphlified Bible (and of course,
because Gene mainly used the Amphlified Bible, we all
went out and bought one too!)and other books he was
reading at the time. .. when I was there, everyone was
still "caught up" in pre-millenial Rapture theology as
popularized by Hal Lindsey's books ("Late GReat Planet
Earth") I think Gene was open because he was such a
novice. . .but he was also trying to work with
different conservative Christian traditions: all view
their interpretation and hermaneutic as the correct
one. . . .But it had been a very short time between
his conversion, and suddenly finding himself in the
role of a Christian leader. To this day, I have to
say, that Gene had a lot of guts, faith and balls, to
launch out as he did! I feel that alot of people
received help, but I also feel that once the Vine
House started growing, that it left little time for
him to reflect and struggle with ideas, theology;he
was left with the day to day mechanics of maintaining
food, shelter and spiritual inspiration and focus to
several dozen people, who were all very
young, immature, some severely psychologically
damanged, some psychopathetic and predatory, etc. He
did not have any other ministers to assist him in this
venture, just young, immature men and women, poorly
educated and biblically illiterate outcasts of
society. How does one adequately manage such a
organization? Well, you start implementing systems of
control which will cut down on the number of
disruptions during the day: and a major disruption was
that there is a lot of variety in theologies between
the different evangelical, protestant tradition.
I suppose also, as Gene continued with his
affiliation with different churches, he was more than
likely being asked to agree with this or that
particular theological position. Chattanooga,
Tennessee was (is!) a hotbed of competing protestant
fundamentalist theological systems; they don't get
along; they are quick to judge one another; disdainful
of one another; generally, poorly educated but very
arrogant and cock-sure that God is on their side and
in their message!: fundamentalist Independent
Baptists, stern Presbyterian Calvinists, Arminian
Wesleyan Pentecostals; tougue-talking Charismatics,
independent "Bible" churches etc., etc. Gene didn't
have the background to differiate what was what, and
like most persons of a fundamentalist church
background and mind-set, he operated off the same
assumption found in all fundamentalist dogmatic
systems: there is one perfectly "right" answer to any
question. And to find that one right answer you have
to either 1) "study to show thyself approved" and/or
2) God will tell you through "inspiriation from the
Holy Spirit" what is the truth. They resolve the
messiness of the Bible. Quote a verse and the issue is
settled! Theological liberals (which I place myself a
part of now) have no problem acknowledging this
problem and discuss it very freely in their schools
(when I was a student at Vanderbilt Divinity School in
the late 80s, one of the introductory classes I took
was titled "Problems of Biblical Authority"). On the
other hand, theological conservatives are constantly
preaching that they have resolved the "coherence
issue"/making-it-all-fit-together by little
intrepertive schemas they impose on the text of
scripture! But in all honesty, the Bible is a book
which does not offer its reader one theology on much
of anything. .. .and this is something I'll throw in
that I learned from my liberal seminary: there is
not one correct "biblical theology", there are many
biblical theologies! The Bible is 66 books written
over a 2-3000 year span of time. .. there is a lot of
variety, contradiction, and unevenness, in the texts
etc. Ad while the literature has alot of continuity
and similiarity over 3,000 years, there is also a lot
of divergent ideas. The process of the canonization
of the scripture was an attempt in itself to nail down
what it was that Christians are suppose to believe and
practice. (And what the conservative evangelicals
never tell you is that there have been several
"canons" of scriptures over the centuries; they don't
get into the history of the political process of
canonization, and that it resembled more our AMerican
Presideential primaries than holy men coming together
of "one mind and one voice" casting their voice in
favor of what was obvious to everyone who was
"orthodox" the true inspired scriprures.)to . . .a
close study of early church history dissolves all
these pyramids of suppposed divine authority, whether
it is from the Bible itself, church councils,
apostolic succession, etc., etc.,)
By the mid-70s, all these young evangelists and
Bible teachers who started the original Jesus People
communes and outreaches, were getting hit with this
diversity of Christian interpretations. The Jesus
MOvement was very simple in its theology and message:
accept Jesus as Savior; give up your life of drugs and
sexual sin; read the Bible; evangelize others while
awainting the soon return of Jesus in the Rapture;
praise the Lord; love one another; In California,
ex-Campus Crusade coordinators tired of this basic
emphasis, and wanted something more in terms of a
church community to fed new converts into. Briefly,
they formed a regular, independent "Bible" church
because they saw the limits of the "para-church"
organization they were a part of. The Vine House was
also, when I was involved, considered itself a
"para-church" organization. Gene was given financial
support from area churches and individual evangelical
Christians who donated things. The folks at "The Vine
House" attended church at "First Presbyterian" in
downtown Chattanooga. When a couple married, Rev. Bob
Smith, an evangelical, retired, United Methodist
minister performed the service at The Vine House (In
fact, Gene and Marsha stayed with Rev Smith and his
wife Dotty, and daughter Ruthie, when they first came
to Chattanooga from Wyoming. . . I remember hearing
about how Marsha would get on Gene about raiding the
fridge of ice cream! in the area They were also trying
to conserve the results of their evanegelism, but
often found it difficult to place the newly converted
hippies into traditional, stiff, boring, middle-class
socially unwelcoming and out of place. (Gene
expeirnced the same problem in Chattanooga.) They
started studying what was "the church" all about,
which resulted in them reading into the early church
"fathers", both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.
They eventually formed the New Covenant Apostlic Order
in the mid-70s.
There was also alot of "biblical" literature
that was destroyed, and marginalized (See Elaine
Pagels works, "Beyond Belief", "The Gnostic Gospels",
etc.) depending on which Christian leader was able to
get the attention and ear of the local autocrat, who
would then impose and destroy churches and literature
that was deemed "false". (Remember: history is only
written by the victors! We only know about "the
heretics" on the first through third centuries based
on the testimony of those who won the conflict. . .if
in a 1,000 years, The Twelve Tribes were to become the
the only surviving Christian community on planet
earth, and they were to win influence with the
political powers to eradicate "the liars" who left
their communities and opposed their practices, then
the words and experiences of those who left the
community would dissapperar in the flames of
book-burning and prison, I'm sure you guys on this web
site would come off as a pretty evil bunch of "liars"
(one of Gene's favorite words!)
Likewise, there was never one correct Christian
group, surrounded by evil "false" groups. The Jesus
Movement of the 1st century had not even developed
firm ideas about who Jesus was or what his death
meant. Once Jesus died, then the very human
enterprise set in motion of people started
interpreting what he was all about. If you premise
that the Bible is all "inspired" from one "holy
spirit", then logically it would follow that since God
cannot contradict himself, then there must be a right
doctrine for any and everything. Hence, the many
splintered landscape of Christianity. The problem is
not with the Bible as much as what we have tried to
project onto the Bible. It is maddening to try to
make it all coherent and logical. And that there is
supposedly one correct "model" for the church; one
proper doctrine of the end-times; "one faith" about
just about any issue. The Bible captures snapshots --
if you will -- of what happened at different times. .
. and I have come to believe that the err, if you
will, of all these fundamentalist systems, is that
they attempt to find a normative model: a once for all
standard that they can operate from.(The eternal
pursuit of all fundamentalist systems to keep things
simple: the sin of simplism - but one can easily
preach and propagate the simple) And I have found that
all fundamentalist systems do not like to study
closerly early church history. A close study of
history undermines any fundamentalists system of
theology. the fragmentation, diversity of thought,
and practices that we know actually operated in the
first few centuries is astounding. A good book which
just examines the complexity of who was Jesus, is
--------"One Jesus: Many Christs: How Jesus Founded
Not One True Christianity, but Many." They quote Acts,
or a gospel, etc. Quote a verse and it ends an
argument---Not! For there are other verses; and there
are endless issues of "context" and application. It
doesn't exist. The one area of study that shattered
my assumptive myths about "discipleship" is a close
study of early church history. It is unnerving. For
what one finds, is that there was never "one doctrine"
about anything. The early Jesus movement quickly
What various fundamentalist systems do, is to develop
different schemes of importance: all scripture is
inspired, but we have a rational for why this verse
has more bearing than that verse.! What one finds as
one goes deeper into the differnces between
Christians, that the differernces the with he didn't
have the time to develop and become more seasoned.
Gene was a loner even while he fellowshipped with
others. needed to grow himselfHe suddenly found
himself in the role of a shepherd to a motley crew of
very disturbed. I think Gene was trying to play
catch-up on what was the correct belief about
anything; he was always carrying a book around that he
was reading; I often ran into him at Landham's or The
Grapvine Christian Bookstores in Chattanooga. or The
Grapevine bookstores authors. . . I ran into him
often at area Christian bookstores like Landhams, the
Grapevine, . . . he would search for things to teach,
and at the same time I felt he was also in a rush to
try to figure out what he actually believed. The Jesus
Movement that he came out of was very evangelistic,
and emphasized a basic pastoral message of love and
grace, mixed with a heavy dose of apocalyptic
expectation and urgency regarding the 2nd Coming of
Jesus. Gene is a natural salesman. . .and he is a
gifted speaker and one on one, very personable. I
don't see these traits by themselves to be wrong, but
he is forceful in his personality, and confident of
his beliefs. He also All these aspects of gender,
race, cultue, religion and time, show up in how Gene
initially, and later on, developed his theology and
practices as a spiritual leader. Gene may have
rebelled against aspects of his upbringing, but in
reality, I don't think he actually drifted very
far from the religious fundamentalist, southern
culture he was raised in: Gene drew from the elements
of his time: 60s counter-culture and communalism were
firmly anchored to themes of spiritual shame, guilt,
unworthiness and repentance; all the common stock in
trade of any old travelling southern evangelist. Gene
later added a more catholic and monastic vision for
the group he founded -- borrowing initially from his
exposure from Eastern Orthodox and catholic writers,
but scratch the surface, and the VH/TT are just
old-time fundamentalist Christians with some added
spin about possessing some type of supposed
modern-day "apostolic authority". Covering all of
this, is Gene's need to control the product he has
manufactured; and like any good ole boy raised in the
South, he's sexist and patriarchial to the core. The
whole culture not only disdained African-Americans,
but women too: seen , not heard
I will not be able to get into all of these things at
this time, but I will say that southern religion,
preaching, etc. is very dramatic. Sermons are
just not essay like reflections the spiritual meaning
of life, but are emotional; preaching is geared to
trigger in its hearers a decision for Christ, a deep
carharsis of feelings and words. The brothers and
sisters gather around the repentant and affirm their
acceptance of the "lost sheep." Touching,
embraces, encouragement are once again showered on the
newly cleansed brother or sister. . . but for all the
acceptance and emotional support that is often. . . it
is still very capricious and conditional. It will
be removed in an instant if the person challenges the
structure of spiritual authority or voices concern
about discrepancies in between the message and the
behavior. "Revivalism" took its deepest roots in the
churches of the old confederacy. Since few people
were educated, and there was little in terms of
entertainment, the church became a center of
spirituality and entertainment. It is filled with
metaphors of hope and fear; of heaven and hell; about
the battle between good and evil, God and Satan, etc.
There are no gray areas. Life is one big struggle to
overcome the evil in one's own soul and to rescue the
souls of those around you.</div>
THe Bible is the literal "word of God." Higher
education is viewed as threatening and with suspecion,
and as potentially injurious to one's spirtual life.
Well, some of my own musings about how The Vine
House/TT shifted from being a totally open, inclusive,
accepting and cooperative group of evangelical
Christians to a controlling, guarded, paranoid,
religious elitist living in isolation from the rest of
the broader Christian community is as follows (here
again, its just my little interpretation of things. ..
it would be good to hear from others from that early
time period for their take. . . reality has lots of
levels): the whole VH/TT experience flows from Gene's
experience as: 1. A male. 2. A white male. 3. A
white male raised in a old southern segregated city.
4. A white male raised in an old segregated
southern city who was also emotionally enmershed in
the religious subculture of a fundamentalist Christian
church, the Christian and Missionary Alliance
Church. 5. A white male raised in an old segregated
southern city and who belonged to an old southern
fundamentalist Christian church, who came of age in
the social upheaval of the 60s and early 70s; who
strayed from his own upbringing, developed a problem
with alcohol, failed as a husband, father, and as an
employee. His story is a great story of a prodigal
son who found his way back to his fundamentalist
Christian roots, but with a hippie Christian
twist. His background and upbringing plays the major
part in how he does theology and how his management
style.
Gene meet a need in Chattanooga in the early 70s
that few could: he could relate to the down and out,
searching youth of the era. Remember, there was a
huge "generation gap" between the adult generation of
the late 60s and early 70s, and the youth culture that
developed. While other churches and ministers may
attempt to talk to them, there was such a cultural
divide between the square world of mainstream society,
and the youth culture, that it could not be bridged.
Gene was one of the few people who had lived in both
worlds. He was advidly sought to talk to these
drop-outs, manyHe had been there. He was one of them,
but before his own Fall, he had also lived in the
middle-class world of having a college education,
holding several semi-professional jobs. . . Gene could
talk to the local business people about the need to
help young people find God and get off drugs, and he
could also comfortably "rap" with the kids who had
done tons of acid and lived off rock concerts and
alienation. He was unpretentious in his dress and
tastes, and saw as many did, the emptiness of American
materialism. The Gene I saw and meet was sincere and
compassionate towards people. He could admit his
mistakes in open groups, asks for the prayers of
others; humble, approachable, open to what others
thught about the Bible, beliefs, etc.. . .looking
back, Gene really didn't know much about the Bible or
the fine and conflicting world of different schools of
evangelical interpretations. . Gene would read from
his well thumber Amphlified Bible (and of course,
because Gene mainly used the Amphlified Bible, we all
went out and bought one too!)and other books he was
reading at the time. .. when I was there, everyone was
still "caught up" in pre-millenial Rapture theology as
popularized by Hal Lindsey's books ("Late GReat Planet
Earth") I think Gene was open because he was such a
novice. . .but he was also trying to work with
different conservative Christian traditions: all view
their interpretation and hermaneutic as the correct
one. . . .But it had been a very short time between
his conversion, and suddenly finding himself in the
role of a Christian leader. To this day, I have to
say, that Gene had a lot of guts, faith and balls, to
launch out as he did! I feel that alot of people
received help, but I also feel that once the Vine
House started growing, that it left little time for
him to reflect and struggle with ideas, theology;he
was left with the day to day mechanics of maintaining
food, shelter and spiritual inspiration and focus to
several dozen people, who were all very
young, immature, some severely psychologically
damanged, some psychopathetic and predatory, etc. He
did not have any other ministers to assist him in this
venture, just young, immature men and women, poorly
educated and biblically illiterate outcasts of
society. How does one adequately manage such a
organization? Well, you start implementing systems of
control which will cut down on the number of
disruptions during the day: and a major disruption was
that there is a lot of variety in theologies between
the different evangelical, protestant tradition.
I suppose also, as Gene continued with his
affiliation with different churches, he was more than
likely being asked to agree with this or that
particular theological position. Chattanooga,
Tennessee was (is!) a hotbed of competing protestant
fundamentalist theological systems; they don't get
along; they are quick to judge one another; disdainful
of one another; generally, poorly educated but very
arrogant and cock-sure that God is on their side and
in their message!: fundamentalist Independent
Baptists, stern Presbyterian Calvinists, Arminian
Wesleyan Pentecostals; tougue-talking Charismatics,
independent "Bible" churches etc., etc. Gene didn't
have the background to differiate what was what, and
like most persons of a fundamentalist church
background and mind-set, he operated off the same
assumption found in all fundamentalist dogmatic
systems: there is one perfectly "right" answer to any
question. And to find that one right answer you have
to either 1) "study to show thyself approved" and/or
2) God will tell you through "inspiriation from the
Holy Spirit" what is the truth. They resolve the
messiness of the Bible. Quote a verse and the issue is
settled! Theological liberals (which I place myself a
part of now) have no problem acknowledging this
problem and discuss it very freely in their schools
(when I was a student at Vanderbilt Divinity School in
the late 80s, one of the introductory classes I took
was titled "Problems of Biblical Authority"). On the
other hand, theological conservatives are constantly
preaching that they have resolved the "coherence
issue"/making-it-all-fit-together by little
intrepertive schemas they impose on the text of
scripture! But in all honesty, the Bible is a book
which does not offer its reader one theology on much
of anything. .. .and this is something I'll throw in
that I learned from my liberal seminary: there is
not one correct "biblical theology", there are many
biblical theologies! The Bible is 66 books written
over a 2-3000 year span of time. .. there is a lot of
variety, contradiction, and unevenness, in the texts
etc. Ad while the literature has alot of continuity
and similiarity over 3,000 years, there is also a lot
of divergent ideas. The process of the canonization
of the scripture was an attempt in itself to nail down
what it was that Christians are suppose to believe and
practice. (And what the conservative evangelicals
never tell you is that there have been several
"canons" of scriptures over the centuries; they don't
get into the history of the political process of
canonization, and that it resembled more our AMerican
Presideential primaries than holy men coming together
of "one mind and one voice" casting their voice in
favor of what was obvious to everyone who was
"orthodox" the true inspired scriprures.)to . . .a
close study of early church history dissolves all
these pyramids of suppposed divine authority, whether
it is from the Bible itself, church councils,
apostolic succession, etc., etc.,)
By the mid-70s, all these young evangelists and
Bible teachers who started the original Jesus People
communes and outreaches, were getting hit with this
diversity of Christian interpretations. The Jesus
MOvement was very simple in its theology and message:
accept Jesus as Savior; give up your life of drugs and
sexual sin; read the Bible; evangelize others while
awainting the soon return of Jesus in the Rapture;
praise the Lord; love one another; In California,
ex-Campus Crusade coordinators tired of this basic
emphasis, and wanted something more in terms of a
church community to fed new converts into. Briefly,
they formed a regular, independent "Bible" church
because they saw the limits of the "para-church"
organization they were a part of. The Vine House was
also, when I was involved, considered itself a
"para-church" organization. Gene was given financial
support from area churches and individual evangelical
Christians who donated things. The folks at "The Vine
House" attended church at "First Presbyterian" in
downtown Chattanooga. When a couple married, Rev. Bob
Smith, an evangelical, retired, United Methodist
minister performed the service at The Vine House (In
fact, Gene and Marsha stayed with Rev Smith and his
wife Dotty, and daughter Ruthie, when they first came
to Chattanooga from Wyoming. . . I remember hearing
about how Marsha would get on Gene about raiding the
fridge of ice cream! in the area They were also trying
to conserve the results of their evanegelism, but
often found it difficult to place the newly converted
hippies into traditional, stiff, boring, middle-class
socially unwelcoming and out of place. (Gene
expeirnced the same problem in Chattanooga.) They
started studying what was "the church" all about,
which resulted in them reading into the early church
"fathers", both Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.
They eventually formed the New Covenant Apostlic Order
in the mid-70s.
There was also alot of "biblical" literature
that was destroyed, and marginalized (See Elaine
Pagels works, "Beyond Belief", "The Gnostic Gospels",
etc.) depending on which Christian leader was able to
get the attention and ear of the local autocrat, who
would then impose and destroy churches and literature
that was deemed "false". (Remember: history is only
written by the victors! We only know about "the
heretics" on the first through third centuries based
on the testimony of those who won the conflict. . .if
in a 1,000 years, The Twelve Tribes were to become the
the only surviving Christian community on planet
earth, and they were to win influence with the
political powers to eradicate "the liars" who left
their communities and opposed their practices, then
the words and experiences of those who left the
community would dissapperar in the flames of
book-burning and prison, I'm sure you guys on this web
site would come off as a pretty evil bunch of "liars"
(one of Gene's favorite words!)
Likewise, there was never one correct Christian
group, surrounded by evil "false" groups. The Jesus
Movement of the 1st century had not even developed
firm ideas about who Jesus was or what his death
meant. Once Jesus died, then the very human
enterprise set in motion of people started
interpreting what he was all about. If you premise
that the Bible is all "inspired" from one "holy
spirit", then logically it would follow that since God
cannot contradict himself, then there must be a right
doctrine for any and everything. Hence, the many
splintered landscape of Christianity. The problem is
not with the Bible as much as what we have tried to
project onto the Bible. It is maddening to try to
make it all coherent and logical. And that there is
supposedly one correct "model" for the church; one
proper doctrine of the end-times; "one faith" about
just about any issue. The Bible captures snapshots --
if you will -- of what happened at different times. .
. and I have come to believe that the err, if you
will, of all these fundamentalist systems, is that
they attempt to find a normative model: a once for all
standard that they can operate from.(The eternal
pursuit of all fundamentalist systems to keep things
simple: the sin of simplism - but one can easily
preach and propagate the simple) And I have found that
all fundamentalist systems do not like to study
closerly early church history. A close study of
history undermines any fundamentalists system of
theology. the fragmentation, diversity of thought,
and practices that we know actually operated in the
first few centuries is astounding. A good book which
just examines the complexity of who was Jesus, is
--------"One Jesus: Many Christs: How Jesus Founded
Not One True Christianity, but Many." They quote Acts,
or a gospel, etc. Quote a verse and it ends an
argument---Not! For there are other verses; and there
are endless issues of "context" and application. It
doesn't exist. The one area of study that shattered
my assumptive myths about "discipleship" is a close
study of early church history. It is unnerving. For
what one finds, is that there was never "one doctrine"
about anything. The early Jesus movement quickly
What various fundamentalist systems do, is to develop
different schemes of importance: all scripture is
inspired, but we have a rational for why this verse
has more bearing than that verse.! What one finds as
one goes deeper into the differnces between
Christians, that the differernces the with he didn't
have the time to develop and become more seasoned.
Gene was a loner even while he fellowshipped with
others. needed to grow himselfHe suddenly found
himself in the role of a shepherd to a motley crew of
very disturbed. I think Gene was trying to play
catch-up on what was the correct belief about
anything; he was always carrying a book around that he
was reading; I often ran into him at Landham's or The
Grapvine Christian Bookstores in Chattanooga. or The
Grapevine bookstores authors. . . I ran into him
often at area Christian bookstores like Landhams, the
Grapevine, . . . he would search for things to teach,
and at the same time I felt he was also in a rush to
try to figure out what he actually believed. The Jesus
Movement that he came out of was very evangelistic,
and emphasized a basic pastoral message of love and
grace, mixed with a heavy dose of apocalyptic
expectation and urgency regarding the 2nd Coming of
Jesus. Gene is a natural salesman. . .and he is a
gifted speaker and one on one, very personable. I
don't see these traits by themselves to be wrong, but
he is forceful in his personality, and confident of
his beliefs. He also All these aspects of gender,
race, cultue, religion and time, show up in how Gene
initially, and later on, developed his theology and
practices as a spiritual leader. Gene may have
rebelled against aspects of his upbringing, but in
reality, I don't think he actually drifted very
far from the religious fundamentalist, southern
culture he was raised in: Gene drew from the elements
of his time: 60s counter-culture and communalism were
firmly anchored to themes of spiritual shame, guilt,
unworthiness and repentance; all the common stock in
trade of any old travelling southern evangelist. Gene
later added a more catholic and monastic vision for
the group he founded -- borrowing initially from his
exposure from Eastern Orthodox and catholic writers,
but scratch the surface, and the VH/TT are just
old-time fundamentalist Christians with some added
spin about possessing some type of supposed
modern-day "apostolic authority". Covering all of
this, is Gene's need to control the product he has
manufactured; and like any good ole boy raised in the
South, he's sexist and patriarchial to the core. The
whole culture not only disdained African-Americans,
but women too: seen , not heard
I will not be able to get into all of these things at
this time, but I will say that southern religion,
preaching, etc. is very dramatic. Sermons are
just not essay like reflections the spiritual meaning
of life, but are emotional; preaching is geared to
trigger in its hearers a decision for Christ, a deep
carharsis of feelings and words. The brothers and
sisters gather around the repentant and affirm their
acceptance of the "lost sheep." Touching,
embraces, encouragement are once again showered on the
newly cleansed brother or sister. . . but for all the
acceptance and emotional support that is often. . . it
is still very capricious and conditional. It will
be removed in an instant if the person challenges the
structure of spiritual authority or voices concern
about discrepancies in between the message and the
behavior. "Revivalism" took its deepest roots in the
churches of the old confederacy. Since few people
were educated, and there was little in terms of
entertainment, the church became a center of
spirituality and entertainment. It is filled with
metaphors of hope and fear; of heaven and hell; about
the battle between good and evil, God and Satan, etc.
There are no gray areas. Life is one big struggle to
overcome the evil in one's own soul and to rescue the
souls of those around you.</div>
THe Bible is the literal "word of God." Higher
education is viewed as threatening and with suspecion,
and as potentially injurious to one's spirtual life. |
seebehindthings (seebehindthings)
Member
Username: seebehindthings
Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 64.174.183.120
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
|
Go ex_yathed! |
johncolo_springs (johncolo_springs)
Member
Username: johncolo_springs
Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.64.160.93
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
|
This is amazingly interesting and insightful. I'm assuming it's all true, unless challenged by TT's here. Any takers? |
johncolo_springs (johncolo_springs)
Member
Username: johncolo_springs
Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.64.160.93
| | Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
|
"Gene
later added a more catholic and monastic vision for
the group he founded -- borrowing initially from his
exposure from Eastern Orthodox and catholic writers,
but scratch the surface, and the VH/TT are just
old-time fundamentalist Christians with some added
spin about possessing some type of supposed
modern-day 'apostolic authority'."
--I especially liked this description which I think is quite accurate. |
yoloextropian (yoloextropian)
New member
Username: yoloextropian
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 148.87.1.171
| | Posted on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 9:16 pm: |
|
Here's what I find scary about that type of monomania, it's the unbending belief that "I am right". As a matter of fact, "I am more right than anyone else ever, or at least since the Early Christians fell away." Because now the teacher, whether it's Joneq or some elder, has raised themselves up (well, soapbox high), & the only reason I can find for such self-seeking ego is a result of shame. Extreme, fundamental Christianity thrives on unhealthly shame. & the result is all this ridiculous drama. Sorry if I step on any toes, but yknow, the whole teaching about these being the last generations is terribly narcissistic; there's the necessity that this generation not be ordinary, but be special in some way. Why? Because I feel less than worthy, so I must be something extra special to make up for it. |
ex_yathed (ex_yathed)
Advanced Member
Username: ex_yathed
Post Number: 573
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.168.65.103
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 4:33 pm: |
|
Here it is folks! The long awaited part II of The Hardening of the New Wineskin.
(re-posted with permission)
Memories of the Young Gene Spriggs and His Message.
It's funny - and sad - for me to read about how
chopsticks would even be an issue. As some of you
know, I was around "Gene" (Yoneq) when he and Marsha
first started The Vine House/Light Brigade ('73-75
time frame), and one of the things that really amazed
me was Gene's constant preaching on how "we" needed to
make sure we live under "grace" and not some form,
even Christian forms, of "The Law". The law - whether
it be Old Testament Judaism, Medieval Catholicism, or
Southern Baptistism, they all developed little systems
of rules which supposedly show they are holier than
everyone else. The Law kills the spirit of grace, and
Gene knew about this from his own church experience.
Where Gene grew up (East Ridge/Chattanooga,
Tennessee/USA), there are all these little
independent, fundamentalist, protestant churches which
have all kinds of ideas about how they can show how
"separated" they are from all the sinners; and how
their church is truly The Bride of Christ and others
are not. When growing up in the 60s, I remember
hearing lots of sermons in my little fundamentalist
Baptist church on the evilness of "long-hair on men",
"women wearing pants", "make-up on women"; the proper
kind of Christian music one should listen to, the
evilness of television, higher education; segregation
of the races as God's divine will for the order of
society, etc., etc., etc.,. . . rules, rules, rules,
etc about all kinds of things which were purely
cultural likes and dislikes of the older generation. .
.
Gene grew up in the First Alliance Church (The
Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination) in
Chattanooga, another little fundamentalist, separatist
group with lots of rules, which generally just made
the life miserable for the teen-agers who attend them.
Lots of guilt and shame poured forth from the pulpit
about how what a back-slider one was for partaking of
any form of popular culture in terms of music, dress,
etc.
Gene preached a lot in those early days how we
have to make sure that we as Christians don't develop
some new system of "the law". Gene was criticized by
some of the churches of that time for his "long-hair",
for using "satanic" Christian rock music as a way to
preach to the youth culture, and not having church the
way "normal" people have church. Gene emphasized at
the time that it is only GOd's grace that saves
anyone, and not how one looks, dresses; which church
they belong to. . . the basic insight of Luther and
the protestant Reformation against the "law" that had
become part of The Roman Catholic Church of the 15th
century.
Another message that Gene preached on was how
the true mark of the Christian is love for one
another, and not just love those who are like us, or
those who we hope to convert to our way, but for all
people: love without a hidden agenda! In those early
days, his messages were in sharp contrast to the
preachers and evangelists of that era and area. Gene
preached love and grace for all people, whereas the
right-wing Christian churches that he and I had
attended, spent much of their time emphasizing how the
Devil was in everyone but them! Criticize! Criticize!
Criticize! As a young Baptist boy, I could tell you
what was wrong with the Methodists, the Catholics, The
Episcopalians, The National Council of Churches,
"liberals", Martin Luther Kind, Jr., rock music, but I
didn't know anything about Jesus' attitude of love and
forgiveness as found in the New Testament. There was
inculcated into us in these types of churches a lot
of paranoia and fear about how the devil is lurking
behind every bush. In looking back, I think the
churches spent more time emphasizing what the devil
was doing than the love of Christ. In those days,
Gene had a firm grasp of the basics of real
Christianity: Love God and love everyone else. And
Gene practiced what he preached. He fellowshipped
freely with other churches and avoided their petty
theological differences and lists of cultural rules
which had nothing to really do with what is inside a
person's heart. Now, decades later, it appears that
slowly he developed his own little system of rule
keeping, paranoia and fear. Somewhere, the love of
Christ got de-emphasized, and the pursuit of a utopian
community of Christ became, if you will, something of
a theological idol of his.
It appears to me that Gene lost touch with his
early focus and got side-tracked with an emphases that
has ditched many Christian communities down through
the centuries: while attempting to form a devoted
community of faith, it instead morphs into a rigid,
legalistic, intolerant group of pharisees who
emphasize not CHrist, but "outside the church (mainly
us) there is no salvation!" And to keep people in the
community, lots of fear, guilt and shame is used to
keep folks from exiting, or even acknowledging that
one can have a difference of opinion on secondary
issues and still be committed and loyal to the larger
goal of the community. But legalists, of whatever
stripe they come in, cannot fathom the idea of a
"loyal opposition." Everything is extremely
dualistic: our way or no way! A goodwill acceptance
of differences is threatening. I think what lurks
behind this rigidity is a fear that if the group
allows a spectrum of opinions on one point, then it
may grow into questions being raised about the bigger
issues of the community, like: are we such spiritual
hot-shots as we think we are? Is Gene really an
"apostle"? What does it mean to name oneself an
"apostle"? Does GOd truly speak through the
leadership? Such questions would indeed crumble the
building; but by allowing such open and accepting
discussions, then it allows honest and truth to filter
in. . . (and we can't have that!)
Grace makes the concept of the church elusive and
nebulous. Folks w/ a need to control others, find
this ambiguity difficult. They want to start some
process of institutionalization where they can visible
see what they have gathered together in the name of
the Lord.
As a Baptist boy who had more artistic
inclinations, I found the Baptist church I grew up in
in Chattanooga to be totally stifling. . . I was draw
to the art and music of the counter-culture and its
overall creativity, but my Baptist church was
culturally living in the culture of the 1930s world in
terms of how it did music, dress, etc. It saw only
threat in the new. Gene didn't. He, and other early
"Jesus People" leaders, saw in the new a way to
communicate an ancient message to the youth of the
time. Repackage the faith so that it made sense to a
a new generation. I rebelled against my independent
Baptist church background. But during that time, you
would have thought that "the Jesus Movement" of the
early 70s was a trojan horse rode by the Devil himself
to bring damnation to the souls of our society. (Now,
interestingly, the grunge dress of hippies of that
early 70s time has become the official holy style of
the TTs!)
Gene had rebelled too against the oppressiveness
and lack of freedom of his church culture, and had
come to realize, when he actually committed himself to
Christ in his early 30s, that he had lived under a
phoney set of cultural rules which had nothing to do
w/ one's real relationship w/ God.
I can remember one other message that Gene
hammered at often: MANY MOVEMENTS OF GOD STARTED OUT
UNDER GRACE BUT EVENTUALLY HARDENED INTO RELIGIOUS
SYSTEMS OF LAW. So true! Sadly, the thing Gene saw
as a young believer, has happened to the very
community he founded. Many rules about dress, style,
music, opinions, child-rearing, the role of women,
etc., which have nothing to do with grace, have
supposedly become marks of some kind of imagined
holiness and choseness.
Of course, the human tendency is to build some
kind of system of outward signs which easily
identifies one as either a part of the in group or out
group. The law, is easy to live under: just look a
certain way; talk a certain way; talk a certain way,
and you are OK. But Group think is not grace. Grace
is more elusive. Grace transcends all earthly
structures and edifices that patriarchial religion has
built. God is beyond all these things. But, the law
helps the leaders of the law to hang on to their piece
of spiritual property (the flock under the control of
the master). Grace actually says: you don't need the
structure, but you do need God and the people of God.
. . The Law of TT says: you can have God and the
people of GOd only within the confines of our
community; and our community demands lots of
conformity. This goes against everything I was ever
taught by Gene Spriggs in the early 70s. The new
wineskin of The Vine House/Light Brigade has become an
old wineskin. But as I have written previously: the
old wineskins never see themselves as "old"; in their
mind, they are still the "new wine" of the Spirit. In
their business of protecting their spiritual turf,
they've lost touch with the fact that the spirit of
love and grace has left them. What's left is just the
maintanence of a big, and outwardly impressive,
spiritual plant. It has gone from being a true
spiritual ministry to just a human business.
I use chopsticks sometimes when I am eating sushi.
I doubt their use, or the use of Hebrew names, or
pony tails on men, or hippie skirts, have anything to
do w/ God's grace or God's community. Actually, this
little chat site is more of a community of grace, a
fellowship of love and support, a real community of
the Holy Spirit, than many places. . . but obviously,
from the kind support and honesty with which many have
found on this site, you get to experience GOd's grace
from the care of others. We share with one another the
grace in our own hearts.
If there is grace in the TT community, it is due
more to the fact that found within it are many, like
yourselves, we are very loving, caring and graceful
believers who had attempted to live out their faith in
that community. Grace happens in spite of the legalism
of the leadership. But grace doesn't stop because
you left TT. You can't bottle up grace. It is there
because it's in your hearts. The "law" says grace is
a part of a specific physical community, a specific
locality, a certain leadership. . . the spirit of
God's grace goes where there is love: where there is
being practiced the simple, but profound ethical
principles found in The Sermon On The Mount.
Spiritual authorities who base their authority
on some system of "law", are disturbed by an attitude
of grace. The leaders of the law want to make the
false claim that they somehow own grace, have the only
legal spiritual franchise on it. . .that they alone
get the chance to dispense it to whom they choose;
but, as the old blues song says: "it ain't
necessarily so!"
While writing all this, it looks like Gene
eventually became the same type of Christian minister
that he grew up under in the small Alliance church his
family attended in Chattanooga, Tennessee:
controlling, legalistic, overly-critical, preacher who
does everything he can to maintain his control over
his little flock. And I doubt that Gene can even see
it. I'm sure in his own mind, he is still fighting
for God. I think he has been so busy for the past 30
years building this organization that perhaps he
hasn't had time to sit down and reflect about what he
is doing and why he is doing it.
So, enjoy your chopsticks. . . but it's OK to eat w/
spoons, forks or even with your hands. Just give
thanks for what you do have. It's all God's good gifts
of grace. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1661
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 2:37 pm: |
|
Here is an archive that everyone should read!
(especially Randy Spenser and his kin)
I didnt write it so you can read it without my history or opinions of me clouding the issue at hand... |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2320
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 2:58 pm: |
|
this is a really good insight.
thanks naba.
It appears to me that Gene lost touch with his
early focus and got side-tracked with an emphases that
has ditched many Christian communities down through
the centuries: while attempting to form a devoted
community of faith, it instead morphs into a rigid,
legalistic, intolerant group of pharisees who
emphasize not CHrist, but "outside the church (mainly
us) there is no salvation!" And to keep people in the
community, lots of fear, guilt and shame is used to
keep folks from exiting, or even acknowledging that
one can have a difference of opinion on secondary
issues and still be committed and loyal to the larger
goal of the community. But legalists, of whatever
stripe they come in, cannot fathom the idea of a
"loyal opposition." Everything is extremely
dualistic: our way or no way! A goodwill acceptance
of differences is threatening. I think what lurks
behind this rigidity is a fear that if the group
allows a spectrum of opinions on one point, then it
may grow into questions being raised about the bigger
issues of the community, like: are we such spiritual
hot-shots as we think we are? Is Gene really an
"apostle"? What does it mean to name oneself an
"apostle"? Does GOd truly speak through the
leadership? Such questions would indeed crumble the
building; but by allowing such open and accepting
discussions, then it allows honest and truth to filter
in. . . (and we can't have that!)
Grace makes the concept of the church elusive and
nebulous. Folks w/ a need to control others, find
this ambiguity difficult. They want to start some
process of institutionalization where they can visible
see what they have gathered together in the name of
the Lord. |
whereto2
Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 51
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.245.210.79
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 4:04 pm: |
|
it is of no profit to read any of this... |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1663
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 4:14 pm: |
|
Dont you mean it is a danger of loss of profits (or should I say a loss for the prophets )to the Kingdom of Yoneq?
But thanks for the endorsement whereto2!
Anyone who sees a comment like this coming from YOU is really going to want to read it! |
whereto2
Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 53
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.245.210.79
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 4:23 pm: |
|
all you have is diversions...
useless
your fall from grace continues... |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2321
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 70.16.219.231
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 4:35 pm: |
|
all you have is diversions...
what these people have is something you do not.
they have experience.
if i read what everyone else is posting and i read what you are posting i see it is you that seeks to divert.
what i see is a blind man who plays the role of a fool. |
whereto2
Member
Username: whereto2
Post Number: 54
Registered: 4-2007
Posted From: 68.245.210.79
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 4:42 pm: |
|
to relish in your fallen ways... that is the experience shared... |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1664
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 75.128.244.102
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 4:48 pm: |
|
Nah! Hold the relish but pile on the onions and mustard!
and make sure that dog is Kosher!!! |
|
