| Author | Message | ||
     ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
If you have any questions about this timeline, contact me at ulyankee@yahoo.com. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
The Maranatha/Morning Star International/Every Nation historical timeline is now being maintained on this thread: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/10342.html?1119356417 blessings, ulyankee (Message edited by ulyankee on June 29, 2005) | ||
| pisteuo (pisteuo) New member Username: pisteuo Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 68.46.230.27 |
It appears that you have done some extensive research in completing this timeline. This is the first I had heard of Greg Ball's possible departure from the group. Why and under what circumstances did this occur? | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Pisteuo - This is just the tip of the ice burg. I am tempted to send ulyankee more information for her timeline. But, enough is enough. There is ample evidence of what is going on. Sharing dirt on individuals below the primary leaders isn't going to help anyone. They are just as descived ast the rest of us were. I am sure every church who has had their leaders directly influenced by the conrol of these three men has a story to tell. Seeing wonderful pastors become obsessed with pleasing these men by raising money (usually with a high pressure building program) and presenting themselves as righteous in the face of their sin... It really makes me sad. So, many people give thinking they are building something for the Lord and instead the leaders are in huge expensive homes... My prayer is that the time and finances that I put into all this will be redeemed by the Lord somehow... I can tell you from my experience, and I hope ulyankee will agree, that most likely, the problem was not Greg Ball... It seems that the more a pastor gives into the "authority", the more is asked from them... until they break. You cant serve God and Money. | ||
| overflow763 (overflow763) New member Username: overflow763 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 69.109.120.192 |
Hi I'm a new member. I was a member of the Morning Star South bay Church for 5 years. I was very active. I was asked to leave recently for reasons I will post later. I'm glad there are others out there who understand what I've been through. Until I read these posts I felt very isolated. I'd try to explain myself to my friends but I knew they truly did not understand. If any of you out there were part of the South bay Church please Contact me at Life763@sbcglobal.net I have a lot of healing to do. I'm at the point where it’s hard to pray because of all the hypocrisy I've in this ministry. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Welcome overflow763. Let the healing and freedom begin! | ||
| actually (actually) New member Username: actually Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi ulyankee This is an impressive amount of research, especially when covering the last few years - well done! There are some points that I feel are important that you have not listed though. For example, concerning the break up of Maranatha, the seekgod.ca website quotes: "According to an article in the March issue of Charisma and Christian Life magazine, Maranatha leaders decided at a July 1989 board meeting that too much of a "spirit of control" had entered the ministry. The article also noted that four Maranatha elders suggested Weiner take a sabbatical during which time he would evaluate his "personal character." During the sabbatical, Weiner concluded that, "I have been struggling with anger, unkindness, contentiousness and a tendency to control," the article quoted him as saying. So the break from Weiner was fueled by a belief that there are limits to the spiritual control one man should have over a church and that Weiner had overstepped those limits. Memory of the abuse would be fresh in the minds of pastors who left Weiner's control and this would influence any churches they planted. Secondly, it is important that Pst Rice chose to enrole in a Reformed Theological Seminary. After being involved in a ministry where more emphasis was given to (fallible) prophecy than to the infallible Bible, Pst Rice's response was to focus on studying the Bible. Thirdly, while I have little to add to the US side of the history, I do have more information on the South African side. The Maranatha church in Johannesburg, South Africa did not merge with His People, it joined His People - changed its name and its character. I served in this church soon after and there was no trace of Maranatha literature or programs. I know a few of the older members who were part of the Maranatha church and they used to tell us horror stories of the "old days". There was nothing left of the harmful Maranatha root after it joined His People. Just to clarify about our "5000 seat, state of the art facility". Yes, it seats 5000 - at that stage, we had around 8000 members and 15000 people in church on Sundays so it's not an unreasonable size. In terms of "state of the art", some clarification is needed. We bought a warehouse, put down carpets, added more bathrooms and set aside some space for church offices. One day it may well be state of the art but we're improving it as finances become available. At the moment, 4 - 5 years later, we still don't have air conditioning. Don't get me wrong, it's not a dump, the building team did a fantastic job with a limited budget, but it is minimalist; functional, not ostentatious. Under January 2003 - Paul Daniel is removed as head of ... His People ..., you should add "at the request of the local pastors" just in case anyone interprets that as a decision originating with MSI. Pst Bill was also not made African trans-local apostle. I've never even heard of a "trans-local apostle", where did you read that? The lastest list of the apostolic team I have is March 2004 and he wasn't listed even by then. Also Paul Daniel is not a US citizen, he lives in South Africa. Do you have any more details about the home he bought in Tennessee - did he sell it soon after or is it being rented out ..? VLI was not renamed ENLI. VLI was merged with His People Bible School and the result was ENLI. Some background about Pst Sam's church in Nigeria joining EN - Pst Sam has been close to our leaders in Cape Town for many years. He's been a frequent guest speaker at our conferences (the earliest I remember was 1996 but it may be longer than that) and he's inspiring in his "rubber meets the road" application of the gospel. EN will definitely benefit from his involvement. In case there is any confusion, Every Nation is the name of the family, not necessarily the new name of any churches in that family. Most churches will keep their names just as VCF churches in the Philippines were still VCF churches after MSI was officially formed. Hope that helps anyone who was confused. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Actually, Thanks for the clarification, especially relating to the His People history... I appreciate it. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Relating to Paul Daniel's home... he does own a home in Franklin, TN, USA, in the same neighborhood as Michael Swain, Jim Laffoon, and a number of other EN Nashville/Bethel World Outreach Center pastors. It was on the market around the first of the year but then was pulled from the market. Unsure whether it has been sold, rented, etc. Usually when a property sells it's noted as "sold" rather than just being removed from real estate sales listings, for obvious reasons... it's good PR for the realtor! I just checked the Tennessee tax assessor's website and they are still showing him as the owner of the property. I had heard, however, that he had returned to SA. I didn't mean to imply that Paul Daniel had become a US citizen but that he did live in the US for at least a short while. Michael Swain is in the US working for EN Nashville, or at least was as recently as the end of last year, since he had been listed on the agenda to represent Bethel before the Franklin (TN) Planning Commission. blessings, ulyankee ps--in case anyone is interested in some of my primary and secondary sources, much of the information is pulled from: Secretaries of State of various US states Tax assessors' offices in various US localities Knowx.com - a subscription database of publicly available information www.archive.org - archived web sites www.forerunner.com www.guidestar.org - listing of nearly all US non-profits, including Form 990s (non profit tax returns in the US) Maranatha-related news articles, including old Maranatha newsletters from 1989 and 1990, courtesy of Bill Mack (go to http://www.rickross.com/reference/maranatha/maranatha10.html and you can see his bibliography of articles) Maranatha ad-hoc committee findings, available from www.csj.org (the final report is also posted on the Rick Ross web site) | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Actually, I find it interesting that you say that PD was removed at the request of his pastors. That is a mere technicality. The fact is that if any of them had been the brothers and sisters in Christ that they were meant to be then they should have sorted the problem out earlier. It was more than one affair and I believe that people had suspected and talked about it much earlier. You said you even left the church. The whole story about all the sordid details coming out when the apostolic team discerned prophetcially in Nashville that he was withholding information is junk. They would have heard the rumours in Cape Town and would have suspicions enough. Paul went to Nashville for slaughter not rehabilitation. They just gave Paul Daniel time to hang himself with his own rope. You know very well that the whole story was never told to the church or media. People on his staff disliked him and another senior key leader in another city did not like him either. In Johannesburg there was no mourning for Paul's fall . . .just sermonising on sin, friendship-building and accountability. Has the elders of the church in Cape Town ever publically apologised for their failure to hold their fellow elder accountable from when it started. Were adjustments made to church government to prevent another King Daniel or Intergalactic Emperor Rice Broocks from dominating with too much authority? Yes, there may be local boards and an international board, but every decision made, every idea formed is subject directly and legally to the sanction of Rice Broocks. THAT IS NOT GODLY GOVERNMENT. Yes, the elders in Cape Town may have tried to stop Paul earlier, but they failed. Yes, there is grace for them to fail. But, if you want to be Mr Bigstuff Lord elder with a front row seat you damn well need to humble yourself once in a while and get real. (Paul obviously did not do that.) The whole system lends itself to abuses. Paul was not the only senior pastor in MSI to be removed in such a fashion. Why did the apostolic team have to be called in? They smelled a rat and knew plenty stuff already. But they were helpless. Please! Bill Bennot could not sort out the problem. Why? Paul and Bill obviously had no relationship. It was a sham for some years. The former Vice President of His People had no teeth spiritually or legally when it came to removing Paul. Paul was sovereign Lord in SA until it came to the legal stranglehold that MSI international had on him. The apostolic team had to come in, partly because they had to enforce the legal points of the covenant Paul signed with MSI as well as the church in Cape Town. They were the only ones who could exert any power to remove him. The only person who had the power and the possible motivation to separate from MSI was Paul and he needed to be cut off before it was too late. Paul did not trust the MSI super apostles. He was his own super-apostle! I think it just all boils down to money. Many MSI/EN/HP churches are consumed by sourcing wealthy congregants and donors. As to your point about the church building being a humble warehouse: I have not seen it but a cursory search of Independent Newspapers/Argus etc. reveals that the centre is not seen as a humble warehouse. That building cost millions and millions and its strategic importance can not be overstated. It is minimalist and fucntional because some very knowledgable and wise people know that it serves a particular purpose and any frill beyond that must come last after the primary needs of the Gospel mandate in feeding the hungry and helping the poor and sick etc. With respect to His People Johannesburg and Marantha you are correct that it joined His People, but Paul recognised Bill as a senior leader from the beginning. HP grew on campus at Wits far faster then any other ministry ever has there. Bill also could offer Paul ministry connections to the States and in Africa.The relative etablishment of the church in Joburg offered Paul and His People the oppurtunity to plant a church without exhausting existing resources. There were still traces of Maranatha such as Bob and Rose's books on the book counter for some years from 92. Some of the early deliverance seminars and other stuff that I attended was directly from Maranatha teachings. Many of the disciplinary codes and practises came directly from the manipulative crap of the shepherding movement. Having heard the horror stories myself, I know that the Bennot's changed the way of doing ministry drastically, (thye did much laudable and commendable work for the church in the eraly days) but to insinuate that no roots of Maranatha remained is incorrect. When I courted and married my wife she was amazed about some of the spiritual attitudes that I had towards leadership. These things I had transferred onto me spiritaully from my days in the campus and church. Let me tell you that we are all fallible people and that by the Grace of God we can stand. God is bigger than Gareth Stead and Pope Rice I and the sooner thewy realise it the better for them. Yes, they must lead by example, but the obsession with appearances, struuting achievements and backslapping and acting the part for public show and being a real bastard to people interpersonally was something that made me run away screaming with my hands in the air. Obviously, I have no respect for these men. They can sermonise, pontificate and even minister in the realms of their anointing, but without love they are just lound clashing noises. I hope that Gareth actually serves you guys like a real servant of Christ and not like the suit and briefcase parade of the States super apostles who just live to expand the empire (under a warped gospel of post-millernarianism as authored by Ober Fuhrer Broocks) and enrich their own personal coffers. | ||
| actually (actually) Junior Member Username: actually Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi speakword Great, I hoped that you would add to the posts on this topic as you know more about the early history of His People Jhb than I do. Thanks for adding that info about the time when the church was becoming a His People church after being a Maranatha one. You are right that people change at a slower rate than procedures. A church can drop the procedures of personal disciplers, submitting marriage decisions to pastors, courses and books but the mindset of the people it trained will take longer to renew. My point was that the Jhb church did not come in with the intent to remain a Maranatha church. It did not merge with HP and form a hybrid, it joined HP and changed into an HP church. And people's mindsets must have changed relatively quickly because none of the pastors I worked with a few years later had the controlling, "holier than thou" attitudes that other people have experienced from ex-Maranatha pastors. About CT, I don't follow your argument, you seem to be arguing against both sides of the point? I do believe that the CT congregation was told the true story so I'll briefly outline what we were told alongside my impressions and obeservations as I was fortunate/unfortunate enough to be in the church at the time. Pst Paul started a ministry with 1 person and within 15 years saw it grow under his leadership to encompass multiple churches with thousands of members. Common sense tells us that this puts him in danger of becoming proud. As the founder, he had no true peers within the ministry - the pastors under him were either people that he had trained or those who had chosen to join his ministry. As you said, even though Pst Bill was officially the Vice President of His People, in practise there was not a strong accountability relationship between Paul and Bill. At some point, Paul chose to join MSI and become legally accountable to other men who had planted successful world-wide ministries. I don't know his motivation in doing this, whether it was a genuine desire to be accountable or a convenient way to meet influential people. I chose to believe the former but even if we believe the latter, certainly Paul knew the legal implications of joining MSI. Over time, unfortunately, Paul slipped into error. Pride overwhelmed him and he started seeing himself as above the law. This became evident in the way he ran the church and in his Sunday sermons. Leaders started leaving the church because they realised that something was wrong. The associate pastors were also concerned and they spoke to him about it but there was no change. Paul then committed adultery. I don't know if the associate pastors knew this specifically (certainly the congregation didn't know, I've never heard of rumours to that effect) or if they were just responding to his general behaviour but they continued to challenge him and he continued to downplay the issues. Eventually, when the pastors had exhausted all of their options, they contacted MSI and asked for intervention. MSI apostolic team members tried to work with Paul but he still denied everything. I'm not sure what would have happened next - possibly the associate pastors would have accused Paul publically and precipitated a church split? Certainly, Paul would not have quietly stepped down and it would definitely have split the church into those loyal to Paul and those who believed the associate pastors. But this was not necessary because Paul became very ill (the judgement of God, guilty conscience?). It's my opinion that this was the final straw - Paul realised that he could lie to his associate pastors and even to the people holding him accountable but he could never lie to God. So he repented openly, resigned as senior pastor and let his MSI accountability partners counsel him. One of the associate pastors took over leadership of the church and there was a major overhaul of the leadership structure. For months, the pastors focused on building relationship between themselves so that these relationships would be a line of defence against pride and sin. The channels of communication within the church were opened and instead of communication only going from the pastors to the area leaders and then to the cell leaders, honest communication started flowing both ways. And in response, changes were made. About the form of church government in EN, I still haven't seen a better one. Every organisation has a top and that top is always a dangerous place to be but in the case of EN, that top is a board of 3 members. Rice could be voted out by Steve and Phil and replaced. That is intrinsically less open to abuse than a single organisational head. If you have a better system to propose, please do that, I would honestly love to hear it. And about Pst Gareth, I've said it before and I'll repeat it, he is a humble servant of the church. He fears and loves God, leads with integrity, openly acknowledges his frailties and is a blessing to our church. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.1.65.33 |
speakword2004 & Actually, I have a question about one of the things speakword2004 said--that Bill Bennot was Vice President of His People. His People Christian Ministries International filed a Certificate of Authority here in Virginia, USA in spring 2000 (so around the time the merger with MSI/EN was finalised) and Bill Bennot was not listed as a board member. Instead the board members were Paul Daniel (President), Michael Swain (VP) and Gareth Stead (Secretary/Treasurer). Was this the full list of board members then, and does anyone know who His People's board members are now? BTW, that Certificate of Authority was withdrawn in the US soon after Paul Daniel stepped down, in case you are interested. The local address listed in the US was not one of MSI/EN's headquarters but Aventura, FL, where Doug Giles' church is located. I'm not sure why the Certificate of Authority was filed in Virginia to begin with, but that's getting really off track.  thanks much, ulyankee | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.1.65.33 |
Actually... the reason why I called the HP facility in Cape Town "state of the art" is because that's the phrase Cape Events Management uses to describe the facility: http://www.cape-events.co.za/ (go to Press Releases link) Otherwise I wouldn't have known otherwise and wouldn't have used that term to describe it, not ever having been there myself. So if that description is inaccurate, I stand corrected... sry. | ||
| actually (actually) Junior Member Username: actually Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi ulyankee I don't object to the terminology, I just wanted to clarify because most of the people reading this board are from the US and they probably have a very different understanding of "state of the art" - wooden floors or soft carpets, huge glass windows, art work. It's nothing like that. As speakword said, there are much better things for a church to spend its money on. About the board of HP, I don't know. I know the board members of my church from their input at the AGM each year but I don't know the structure of the international leadership. It would have changed in the last few years anyway. Speakword, do you know? | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
I don't have a cooking clue who runs HP anymore. Roger Pearce apprears to be senior pastor in Johannesburg and GS in Capetown. Actaully, still being a member, you will know when ther next national/regional conference is. For now, I suspect all are signed to the MSI convention on churches and relate under the MSI/EN board accordingly. No SA church has yet changed its name to EN, but I suspect that this may happen. The laws of incorporation may be different in South Africa etc. As to church governmentI would like to see less local episcopacy and more local pysbertery having influence over all things within the church. Actuully, you could best educate yourself on the whole shebang by reading the articles within church incorporation. It is a document that all EN churches must agree to. Maybe then you will understand how the whole church government thing works. From what I can see, Paul would only be able to be fired directly by the director of the board of Morningstar ie. Rice Broocks and Steve Murrel. CT could request that Paul be fired, but if CT had signed the document, then the board and only the board had the teeth to make Paul step down. Even if Paul had resigned as pastor, there would be a mandatory 60 day waiting period. I don't know the terms of his personal contract with Cape Town or MSI/EN board, but if Paul had wanted to leave MSI he would have not translocated to Nashville and bought a house. Their decision not to continue with rehabilitation came I suspect after that 60 day period and after he had purchased a new house in proximity to other MSI leaders homes. One of the other writers here can give you the board details etc. My point is that if one man like Paul Daniel can be so abusive and get away with it for so long, why not another? OK, so you in Cape Town are now wiser and more careful . . .that's great and I hope it stays that way. Just don't make the same assumptions about other HP and MSI churches and leaders. My 11 years in the movement and missions to 5 African countries taught me that there is enough authoritarian control in the movement to strangle an elephant or two. Paul Daniel taught a very controlling and mainpulative ART of leadership to his acolytes. I allo disagree with your point on Johannesburg transforming into an HP church in the likeness of of CT. I think Johannesburg was its own church in character. It did not go full out always to maintain a carbon copy of coporate identity etc. I can only remember Paul visiting a few times from 93. We were "His People church Johannesburg" and had sometimes a very different way of doing things. This was based much on Bill's character and style of minisrty. Only one of the young pastors ordered tapes from Cape Town and that was because he was a student leader in the early days there under Paul. For some years prior to 98, the bible school was locally written and adpated for Johannesburg even. In our defense, I must state that a friend who had been in Maranantha and tyhen left for a more cultic Pentecostal church returend back to His People in 94 and was overwhemleed how free it was in comparison to his old church and the old Martanatha as well. In Johannesburg the Brwonsville revival and Toronto Blessing was embraced, whilst in Cape Town it was not. Again, HP Johnanesburg was bit differrent . | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
speakword2004, Thank you for your input on this board. It is very helpful. I did not know HP was originally a maranatha church. That explains a lot. Also, it helps to understand that the congregation was powerless to remove Paul until msi stepped in. We had a similar problem. Our pastor got divorced and in my opinion our church had no power to decide if he should stay or go. MSI apparently made all decisions. He is still a lead pastor in our church (there is another "head" pastor by title only, but the origninal divorced pastor is still in control). plus msi has given this divorced pastor a head pastor position in another church as well, supposedly, because the divorse was not his fault. Our church would have been much better off if this guy had just left instead of dragging our church through the long process of his divorse and remarriage. Originally, our by-laws said that if a pastor got a divorce he had to step down. When the divorse process started, I think that is when the by-laws were changed to the msi bi-laws (at least that is what someone told me - don't know for sure). Anyway, in the end, Rice Broocks had total control of the situation. Many of the members of the congregation who did not believe that a divorced man should be head of a church left at that point. Based on what Actually was saying, I did not know HP had any maranatha history and I assumed the congregation was governed by elders whom Actually was holding accountable for the decision to call in MSI about Paul. From what you are saying, it sounds more like our situation, the elders and congregation were completely powerless. This set up is bound to fail. Rice Broocks can not baby sit every pastor personally. No wonder why these guys think they can get away with sin. They have no one holding them accountable on a daily basis on the local church level. | ||
| actually (actually) Junior Member Username: actually Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi speakword Yes, Roger is senior pastor in Jhb. You may be right in that the individual senior pastors may relate directly to the IAT ie that there isn't a board for HP international but rather individual boards for each church. I'll ask around. Do you have a copy of the articles for church incorporation? I would be very interested to read those. I don't doubt that the senior pastor could only be fired by the apostolic board (Rice, Phil and Steve). The important point is that he can be fired by someone - if Paul hadn't joined MSI, no-one would have had the legal ability to fire him and the whole thing would have been much messier. The decision for the US leaders to stop counselling Paul was only made recently when Paul was happily settled in a church here in SA and his new pastor had taken over the counselling. Paul left the US because he had initially gone over on a ministry visa but after he resigned (possibly 60 days afterward) he was no longer a minister so his visa was no longer valid and he had to return to SA. Oh, and I never said that Jhb transformed into a CT clone. It became an HP church. All of the HP churches are different, this is obvious. Ok, the pros and cons of a church being led by one person (episcopal) or by a board of elders (presbytery) is a constructive topic of discussion. HP does have a presbytery (the associate pastors in the larger churches or the elders in smaller churches) and they have authority in their areas of ministry but the senior pastor has the final say for church-wide, non-financial decisions (budget decisions are made by the finance board which is made up of pastors and businessmen). Would it be better to have those decisions made by majority vote? Pro: It is easier to remove a pastor, you can simply vote to fire him. Con: The senior pastor knows this and may pander to the board to gain favour. There is a greater temptation to please man rather than God because it could mean your job. Pro: There is someone charged with seeing the big picture and making decisions in the best interests of the church. Con: Each pastor has a different ministry and will desire the best for his ministry. In tough times when difficult decisions must be made, they will probably favour the loudest/pushiest pastor, not necessarily the best interests of the church. Pro: There is less temptation for the senior pastor to become proud because he is simply one of the pastors not "the main man" Con: No-one feels personal responsibility for the welfare of the church. The buck doesn't stop anywhere, there is always someone else to pass it to. In EN overall, there are local advisory prebyteries, local authoritative senior pastors, a world-wide presbytery (international apostolic team - are they advisory or authoritative, do you know ulyankee?) and a world-wide presbytery of 3 (Rice, Steve, Phil). 3 is in my opinion, the best number for this level - it's big enough that decisions must alway be the consensus of at least 2 people but small enough to avoid bureaucracy. Should all local churches have a presbytery of 3 pastors instead of a senior pastor? It's not a bad idea at all - comments? | ||
| actually (actually) Junior Member Username: actually Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi lc20 Just to clarify quickly, HP was not a Maranatha church. One Maranatha church joined HP in the early days but it did not retain its Maranatha character, it became an HP church. The reason that the local elders didn't have the authority to fire the senior pastor is because the senior pastor started the church so he wrote the by-laws. Accountability was relational but that broke down through lack of maintainance. Legal accountability is safer. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.113.38 |
Actually - It seems to me you are simplifying the argument by making it a topic of government only. In my opinion, there is more to it. In msi, it seems that loyalty is valued over character. This msi "army" of loyalists to Rice Broocks is relatively small. So, in situation, where most denominations, regardless of structure, would release a pastor, MSI forgives (over ignores) clear character faults resulting in sin. Time will tell, but I would be willing to bet that Paul will be given a new ministry some time soon as my pastor was. Their covenent relationships prevent them from "firing" anyone. They can move them to keep the crowds happy, but they will not break covenent with each other for any reason - including potentially losing a spouse... | ||
| actually (actually) Junior Member Username: actually Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi lc20 Please don't misunderstand me, it's not an issue of government only. Government is simply the aspect that we are discussing at the moment. A church could have perfect government and still have huge problems. At least with a good government structure though, there are checks and balances and ways of resolving problems. I can't speak for your old church but in mine people can be removed from leadership. One of our pastors did divorce a few years ago and it was made clear to the congregation that the family are still loved and valued and welcome to continue as church members but that they are no longer pastors. Paul likewise will not pastor an EN church again, he and his family have joined another church and will get involved there. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
lc_20, If you are talking about the pastor that I think you are, not only did he maintain his board position in his original church, his pastorship of his new church, plus his board positions on other MSI/EN organizations and ministries, he is still a member of the International Apostolic Team. Actually, I'm glad to hear that Paul Daniel and his wife have found a new church home. Do you know if it is an EN and/or HP church? ulyankee | ||
| actually (actually) Junior Member Username: actually Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi ulyankee Yes, I agree, it's great that they have found a church home. No, it's not an EN church. I've looked at the website and it seems to hold a lot of beliefs in common with EN but it doesn't have a focus on campus ministry. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Actually, I think I posted the International Apostolic Team's structure on one of the other gazillion related discussion threads that have cropped up in my absence . I recall your responding to that post but for anyone else who needs to know where it is it's on the Maranatha thread: http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=118008#POST118008 Anyway, the IAT is made up of two components: The Board of Directors - Broocks, Bonasso, Murrell. The Advisory Board - the last they made that list public (middle of last year) those members were Ron Lewis, Brett Fuller, Jim Laffoon, Sam Webb, and prior to May 19, 2004, Greg Ball. The Advisory Board doesn't advise the Board of Directors but instead help the Board of Directors oversee MSI/EN churches... so I guess that's where "advisory" comes from. I went into more detail on their relationship to the Board of Directors and their responsibilities in my original post linked above. I'm not sure if Greg Ball has been replaced. I know that Paul Daniel was on the IAT (Advisory Board) too before his removal in early 2003. It does not look as if he had been replaced as of spring 2004--they haven't listed the IAT members on their website since they went to the new design in June, or if they have I have no idea where on there it is. Sam Webb replaced Manny Carlos of the Philippines in 2003 as the Asian/South Pacific representative. I believe Robert Owens out of Nevada has been given some oversight responsibilities and has gone to SA and New Zealand (see www.midcities.org and go to Sermons) but I'm not sure if that means he's on the IAT/Advisory Board or he's just helping out in that capacity. Bill Bennot is now a staff member of that same church (Mid Cities Community Church, Midland, Texas - again go to Sermons). | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Actually - msi/en is a denomination. One of the decisions that msi/en has made as a denomination is to allow divorced pastors. They did this when they set the precedent by allowing this person who is very loyal to Rice Broocks to remain in leadership through his divorce and second marriage teaching that the husband of one wife means the husband of one wife at a time. This in my mind is a key example of how loyalty and reputation are valued higher than character and biblical truth. This is the body governing your church. Maybe, in the past, you were able to remove a divorced pastor. But, in the future it will be more difficult due to the precedent and example set by leadership themselves. If you want to know if what I say is true, hit the mission field, take a trip to the US and sit under their teaching for 5 years. Take all their classes and do everything they tell you to do. Then you will see the problem. | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
As far as I know Paul Daniel was fired from MSI. His counselling was not handed or entrusted to someone else directly. The comment that I heard was that he would never be allowed to minister in EN ever again. Paul was realeased from covenant, which if you read the document is always superceded by the legal. Spiritually Natal is very desparate and there are constant revivalist activities and healing crusades etc. Hopefully Paul is being well rehabilitated again under some strong and wise leadership. For Actaully, if you just read the whole legal setup the force them into you will understand that there are so many levels of accountability that are ultimately subject to the veto of one or two men, then you will understand why people can choose to ignore their peers such as Paul did. It was only when legal authority (not spiritual authority which in this case he disdained) stepped in, was his head cut off. | ||
| actually (actually) Junior Member Username: actually Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.242 |
Hi ulyankee Thanks for posting that again, I am familiar with that post but I had missed the part where you said we could contact you off-board if we wanted more details. I am interested in reading the entire document - I'll mail you now and maybe you can e-mail it to me? Thanks! Hi lc20, have a look at the post ulyankee referred to and you'll see that a policy on divorce is not mentioned (unless it's in the portions that ulyankee didn't post in which case I shall stand corrected) so it isn't an organisation-wide decision. Churches keep their own by-laws but add on the stipulations for being an EN church. So that means each church is free to have its own policy on divorce. This explains why in your church, a divorced pastor was allowed to continue in ministry but in my church, he wasn't - clearly your by-laws allow that but mine don't. Regarding precedent, a pastor who is dismissed may appeal to the IAT or Board only in areas where they have stated authority. Since there is no overlying policy on divorce, there is nothing to substantiate an appeal. The local pastor agreed to the local church's by-laws when he was ordained, the fact that another church has different by-laws doesn't change anything. Otherwise, lc, I don't doubt that the experiences you have shared are true. That goes for any of the other people who have testified of abuse in their churches. My advice doesn't change - if you are in an abusive situation: pray; try to change it within your church if possible (eg speak to someone the abusive pastor is accountable to); if that doesn't work, leave but make sure that the leadership know why you are leaving and that there is a genuine problem so that they cannot just attribute it to your "bad attitude". Vote with your feet, if that's the only power you have it will still be felt over time. What I do hold to though, is that it is an isolated problem in certain US churches. I have hit the mission field, I've spent time in EN churches in eight countries over 3 continents. I've done all the courses and all the training programmes and I've sat under the teaching of all of the IAT except Phil. The problem isn't there. I know that you believe that despite good teaching, bad practises that are contrary to that teaching will somehow spread worldwide. I don't believe that. The vast majority of EN churches are not in the US, are healthy and are led by God fearing pastors. If the teaching that is spread to the non-US churches changes to unBiblical nonsense, those pastors are not going to accept it. If the bad practises are not spread by teaching but by relationships then you must allow for the possibility that the God fearing majority will influence the abusive minority. I'm not going to sit by naively and trust that nothing bad will happen, I'm keeping my eyes and ears open, but it's simply not logical to expect my church to be corrupted. lc20, maybe you should hit the mission field - come and see what a healthy EN church looks like ... you'd be welcome any time. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.113.169 |
Actually - I don't know how this all became about you anyway. My apologies. I am not trying to convince you that your church will become corrupted. I just wanted to share my experiences relating to this organization. In my experience, they were controlling, manipulative, financially irresponsible and in the end post-millennialists. They love-bomb, say they care, promise you a great destiny with the people God put you with and the authority God put you under. Then ask for service and money in an oppressive way. From what I saw, people who complain at this point are told they have a problem with money or the authority that God put over them. They don't preach the values of Christ - helping the sick, poor and imprisoned. They preach a prosperity message, which consists of give more get more - but the giving is to them not to the needy. They live luxurious lives in posh building and they twist truths to keep the people/money coming in. Obviously, that is not your experience. There are two possible reasons you have not experienced this. One is that you are in a healthy church (somehow protected by the issues with people on the board/IAT - maybe the Grace of God). The other is that you are one of the leaders prospering from the system with people serving and giving to you so you are enjoying the system. As far as you invitation to visit another EN church – no thank you. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
I COULDN'T HAVE SAID THAT BETTER MYSELF IC_20. I HAD THE SAME OBSERVATIONS WHEN I WAS AT THE CHURCH IN MY AREA. | ||
| another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall) New member Username: another_brick_in_the_wall Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.137.121.130 |
Wow. You go, lc_20!! | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Actually and everyone else, This is more for "everyone else" since I've already told Actually this, but I am hesitant to electronically send out copies of the Guidelines, Policies and Procedures document to whomever asks primarily because it is copyrighted. Quotes can be posted publicly as long as they are properly cited, which is allowed by the "fair use" provisions in US Copyright Law, but according to the law one can make copies for research use but not reproduce and distribute it without getting permission from the copyright holders, who in this case are Rice Broocks, Phil Bonasso and Steve Murrell. That would be an interesting correspondence.... "Dear Pastor Rice, I am the mysterious ulyankee who has posted the entire history and background of your group on the FACTNet countercult discussion board. Can I have permission to send out the Guidelines document to anyone who requests more information? In Christ's Service, ulyankee." In all seriousness, US copyright law is the primary reason why I can't send it out to whomever asks. Otherwise I would send it out at will, believe me! However, if anyone is interested in other specific things that may be in there, or in any of my other sources, please ask. A lot of the other things I have are publicly available and/or non copyrighted docs and I can post those or send those out. Anyone who is interested in the Guidelines document should be able to see it at their church... my understanding is that all churches have a copy. And I would assume that there would be a separate edition for HP since the version that I have references US tax code specifically. If SA law is based in English common law tradition like most US law, then contract law is still contract law... but either way it would be helpful for South Africans and other non-US based folks to see the version printed specifically for their own country imho, assuming there is one. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
I think it is unfair to judge Postmillenial viewpoints without studying them just because some MSI leaders suppports this view. Postmillenialism is a historically founded interpretation and demands study rather then just dismissal because a person has been stockfed on "left Behind" books and charismatic confusion. Rice is not postmillenialist, but post-millenarian, and there is a difference. Read his book. Actually, I aplogise for my brusque tone previously, but you must understand that despite the "health" of parts of the MSI/EN movement there are some very serious allegations and accusations being levelled at it. I belive that these will come out more visibly in due course. I would appproach the senior leadership in CT. Tell them what you have been discussing here and ask to see all articles or incorporation etc. with MSI, Rice Broocks etc. You stand to be on better legal grounds in refuting or dismssing what poeople have to say about the leadership structure of the movement. | ||
| pisteuo (pisteuo) New member Username: pisteuo Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 66.0.216.130 |
I would like to agree with speakword2004 regarding his recent post. First, a postmillennial viewpoint is NOT an aberrant theology, just a minority one. It is NOT anti-biblical nor is it heretical. Some may make it such but it has never been considered an anti-biblical viewpoint. Second, MSI/EN needs to be confronted not on its fringe (like whether it is postmillennial) but at its core -- how it controls and dominates stifling ALL opposition or non-conformity. It is at this point where it is weakest and change is needed. | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 9 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Minority or not, few people actually have an eschatological viewpoint anyway. Let's stick to the core issue as mentioned above. MSI is cultic in its practises and leadership strategies. It comes from a historically abusive root that never has been cut off but rather hidden. MSI's historical revisionism and its failure to ever admit fault or weakness is in itself a very big cause for concern. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come (the_west_here_i_come) New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.46.231.222 |
hi everyone i am new here but I have been reading the opinions about this ministry. As an ex attendee,(i never became a member)some of things i maybe thought i would throw out there for some of you all to study. regarding the descipleship movement and submission to authority a key revelation not to accuse but to evaluate and consider when buildng relationships with people in these types of churches is the doctrine of the nicholaitans. One day i was studying revelations and came across a confirmation passage regarding a prohecy that the Lord spoke to me on regarding a martyr. IN ch2 i continued to read and the lord spoke that he detested the doctrine of the nicholaitans and i asked my pastor at calvary after i had this experience in msi about what that meant. He stated that the nicholaitans were a false sect founded by nicholas who was a part of the church in the book of acts but later began his own thing. This "thing" was a hierarchical system that stated basically in order to get to God You have to go through leadership. This is the very thing I dested at msi because it doesn't give you any room to use your brain or learn to here God's voice for yourself. This practice is dangerous. Another thing that I dested was the respector of persons issue. Going after rich people. This is not God. And finally, the most important issue is that This apostolic board who claim to be apolstles, prophets ect.. The msi i was in I witnessed many false prophecies but people would repeatedly state because thier leaders stated these men were apostles and prophets that was it regardless of what the bible stated. if i challenged them with the Word they would state You need to submit to your spiritual authority... They exalt themselves above the Word. It's demonic. They operate in witchcraft.. This rice brooks guy claims to be an apostle but has he ever planted any churches or just got people to do it for him and turns around and takes their money. The bible is very clear as to why Paul was an apostle... it was his relationship and tribulations he went through for the church. IN the history of me attending msi Rice brooks never visited the church but yet he was "overseeing" it. The man is not real but he has skills. He adopts churches and gets other to do his work for him and reaps their benefits... He is a ceo not an apostle. Thankyou | ||
| eightyeight (eightyeight) Junior Member Username: eightyeight Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.67.239.107 |
Quote Second, MSI/EN needs to be confronted not on its fringe (like whether it is postmillennial) I understand what you are saying here. the Postmill thing was why I left MSI not because they are postmill but because I was there 18 years and didn't know it. In VLI I now see how they very sublilly tried to tear down what they know most of the congregation believes and privilly proceded to build up covenant theology which they know no one has a clue about. They never actually said their stand even then it was all very subtil and sneaky To me that is a cult when you have a secret doctrine that the people are not told right up front. They know if they told the truth most peole would walk out and they would loose the money and workers. That is what burns me!! WEST GUY! I would like more info you put the two together! one group says it is two words put together Nicho which means something like rule over Laity which of course means congregation. another group who says it was from Nicholas who was basically a reprobate. Now you put the two together and I would like to have more info on that. Thanks! | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.1.65.33 |
"He is a ceo not an apostle." Amen! Thanks for your comments and observations! | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
SECRET DOCTRINE IS RIGHT ! I'M ONE OF THE ONES WHO WALKED OUT. I NEVER LEARNED ANYTHING ABOUT THIS GROUP FROM THE LEADERS WHEN I WAS THERE. THEY LIKED KEEPING PEOPLE IN THE DARK AND MISINFORMED. I'VE LEARNED MUCH MORE FROM THIS BOARD, THAT'S WHY I MONITOR IT. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come (the_west_here_i_come) New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.46.231.222 |
to eightyeight what information are You looking for? check your chirstian bookstores for dictionary refernces to give specifics regarding the nicholaitans. by the way why did Greg Ball disconnect with this ministry? | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
In Koine Greek Nikolaos means "conquerer of the people" Balaak in Numbers 22-24 also means "conquerer of the people" in Hebrew. The apostle John in the Revelations calls these people Nicolations, stumbling blocks to the children of God. God condemns them as being holders of the doctrine of Balaam who eat idol sacrifices and thus follow this pagan tradition which is now called the doctrine of the nicolatians". Nicolas, a false apostle, led a sect of christians astray into paganism and fornication." It is the Lordship of the people's way over the Lordship of God. Balaam in the OT had suggested to King Barak that they could destroy Israel through corrupting it. By corrupting it withy the ungodly peoples way of doing things into Israel/church. Thus they insinuated their way above God's way and took Lordship of God away from the people lives. Encoraging pagan practises, attitudes and patterns of worldy behaviour led people away from God as focus. Their apostle Nicolas, was a Lord now was visible and acceptable replacement mouthpiece of God. Their peoples' absorption and personal gratification became their Lord as well as those who led them and not God Himself. They were led astray by their paganism. I don't think it is fair that you could say that an obsession with authority and hierachy means that MSI are actually Nicolatians. That may be a bit unfair right now. If any do start to possit the idea that God teaches them to teach us and that they have some greater revelation of God and we should just blindly follow worldy ways, then I would be suspicious. The label of heresy is not ready to stick on these men quite yet. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come (the_west_here_i_come) New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.46.231.222 |
To clarify the precise doctrine of the nicholaitans in relation to MSI is quite probable and accurate. This may be an over simplification but the hierarchy in the MSI I attended practiced the same practice as the nicholaitans. I am not saying that they(msi)follows precise detail of this false sect in the Bible but what they do pratice is very ungodly. They are dangerous!!! Period!!! | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
I have a tax question. Last year I gave a gift to a msi missionairy. I have asked for a receipt so I can deduct the value of the gift from my taxes. They are not responding. They haven't written to me since I said I was leaving the church. My accountant said that without a receipt I can max deduct $499 of the value of the gift, if I gave the gift to a charitable organization. Since I gave the gift directly to the msi missionairy (not to an msi office to give to the missionairy), is it deductable? I did get a email from them shortly after I gave them the gift saying that they were using it in their ministry. But, they did not use their everynation email address to send this email to me. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
lc_20, Do you know if this missionnary has his/her own separate ministry organization, or is this a MPD supported missionary? Unfortunately, MSI is not obligated to give you a receipt. The IRS encourages that churches give these receipts but doesn't require it. I suppose an emailed receipt would be ok but only if it includes the IRS required information: (from http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf) Substantiation Rules A donor cannot claim a tax deduction for any single contribution of $250 or more unless the donor obtains a contemporaneous, written acknowledgment of the contribution from the recipient church or religious organization. A church or religious organization that does not acknowledge a contribution incurs no penalty; but without a written acknowledgment, the donor cannot claim a tax deduction. Although it is a donor’s responsibility to obtain a written acknowledgment, a church or religious organization can assist the donor by providing a timely, written statement containing the following information: --name of the church or religious organization, --date of the contribution, --amount of any cash contribution, and --description (but not the value) of non-cash contributions. In addition, the timely, written statement must contain one of the following: --statement that no goods or services were provided by the church or religious organization in return for the contribution, --statement that goods or services that a church or religious organization provided in return for the contribution consisted entirely of intangible religious benefits, or --description and good faith estimate of the value of goods or services other than intangible religious benefits that the church or religious organization provided in return for the contribution. The church or religious organization may either provide separate acknowledgments for each single contribution of $250 or more or one acknowledgment to substantiate several single contributions of $250 or more. Separate contributions are not aggregated for purposes of measuring the $250 threshold. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.58.204.226 |
Ulyankee, Thanks for the response. I think they are MPD supported. They are in an MSI church plant. Basically, what you are saying agrees with my accountant except she said the threshold was $500. I guess that will teach me not to give a gift of greater value than the threshold to anyone without getting a receipt in my hands first. Just another difficult lesson learned. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 192.58.204.226 |
ulyankee - I double checked and you are correct about the $250. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
WOW ULYANKEE ! IS THERE ANYTHING YOU DON'T KNOW ? | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Hehe, thanks for the compliment, UC_20. There's a whole lot I DON'T know. Sometimes though it's just a question of knowing where to look for the answers. That, some research training, and a WHOLE LOT of God's guidance. To Him goes ALL the glory, honor and praise! ulyankee | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.161.251.141 |
} Hello,Thank you so much for this site. I am quite overwhlemed; I left a message on the end, almost of part one. I am a follow travler on this beat with much experience with Maranatha ,it's leaders and present ones in the newest incarnation. Thank you Ulyankee for all your research; it is grand. To say the least, I have only come lately to this site. It is much needed and helpful and healing. I quite don't what to say. I am still reading all the postings. I was there almost at the begining;I was discplined by people from Murray State Ky. On the begining theology, I don't know of a very consceried effort by local pastors at U. of Kentucky. They used a few pages of a new beginning, as the Bible study. The red book was next and many others written by Rose Wiener. Her father was a Methodist preacher; who's church was first used to get the ministry off the ground. I will ansewer questions as I believe that this is a neccesary start to begin to heal.(This site) I know sometims after ; first I left the church all I could do was to hold the word, and cry and pray. I would only hear men's voices and thier teaching in my ear when I read the new testament. So I was led by the ever faithful and present Holy Spirit , to read Psalms and Proverbs until I came out of the woods. I am still after all these years coming outin many ways. But you know that button that men, even men of God try to push in me,is forever broken .Which is a nice place to be, even though the cost was great. We can be always thankful to The Great Shepherd who never let go of us or forgot us, HIS OWN. In His Great Love | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Coppertree It is good to hear that another person has been set free. Hallelujah! | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Hi Coppertree (or anyone else here from "old" Maranatha): Was the "Red Book" the same as what became Bible Studies for a Firm Foundation? Or was it something else? Thank you so much for posting. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| raguyton (raguyton) New member Username: raguyton Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 204.1.142.76 |
I am deeply concerned about many of the comments being displayed on this forum and how several appear to be more of a personal vindictive nature than doctrinal issues. I realize that praying in tongues, discipleship, covering, tithing and prophetic words are issues for many, but that does not necessarily equat into cultic or controlling religious behavior. I was part of another church for 12 years before coming to Morning Star Church. In the 13 years that I have been in Morning Star, I have grown spiritually in my relationship with God in ways that I did not grow before. Even my friends from my other church have noticed the big difference in me. My other church is a very good church, the difference is that they were not able to truly have an effective discipleship program where they would speak into the lives of their congragation and challenging them to rise up and fulfill whatever God's call on their lives is. Most of us are strong willed and hard headed (I speak for the men out there). We need someone to get in our face from time to time and tell us that we need to be a better father, husband, Christian, etc. Naturally, we do not like to be told this. We want to blame someone, our upbringing or our circumstances. Morning Star challenges us to rise above our circumstances and face our issues head on...like a man! This is what made the biggest difference in my life. In my old church, all of my buddies were making mistakes, especially in our dating practices, where we were repeatedly falling prey to that spirit of lust. Most of the girls we dated in the churh we had sex with. We would become upset with ourselves, repent and do well for awhile, then blow it again. We were relying on our own strength. We are not strong enough to deal with this issue in our lives alone. MS dating standard is to protect us and allow us to be in a position to enjoy ALL of what God wants to do for us. As a result of my weakness and not having any spiritual authority in my life, I ended up marrying a non Christian which lasted two years before we divorced due to her 3 extra marital affairs. Several friends from my old church told me later that they wished that they had come forward sooner, like before we married, to try and change my mind. They saw things that I did not see. I was focused on wanting to get married, shape of her body and her looks. I was not focused on honoring God. This is why MS has such a strong discipleship program. Yeah, it can be overbearing at times. Nothing is perfect. But most of us men need strong discipleship. Two years later I cam into MS. Because of my letting these men disciple me once I came in, I now have celebrated my 10th wedding anniversary with a woman who is great. But again, we would not have celebrated our second wedding anniversary had we not had our pastor and his wife discipling us strongly. Both she and I had been previously married and carried some serious baggage into our marriage that did not surface until we were married. Because of MS's discipleship program, we have a very strong marriage. The tongues issue is scary for many. I understand that. Many in our church are not comfortable praying in tongues. Thats okay. Nobody is mandating that you pray in tongues or is asking you to leave because you do not.These people can go to a church that does not speak or pray in tongues, but not have the discipleship program that we have. Or not be taught about destiny and calling. Bottom line is that whether or not you believe in praying in tongues, discipleship, etc. are not issues to divide over. They are non essentials to salvation. But when we allow the enemy to cause division amongst the Christian community in these areas, we are not as strong in our fight for revival coming to our nation. All I can tell those of you reading is that MS is not perfect. I have been involved with several churches over the past 25 years and have not found a perfect one yet. All churches have their weak links, doctrinal differences, etc. I do not agree with everything MS teaches. But I know that I have grown leaps and bounds while in MS. You could not drag me away from MS. My personal relationships with my local church pastors is strong. Those of you writing negative comments, please be careful that you are not judging the entire ministry because of the supposed mistakes of a few or are simply venting due to your bitterness or resentment. Those of you reading these comments, please note that MS and other ministries will always make mistakes. However, most of the senior pastors I have dealt with are truly making every effort to serve God, train and equip our congragation and see us fulfill all that God has for us. God bless. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.171.236.20 |
Hi Thank you all for your kindness.( and hard work) To answer Ulyankee's question on the bible study material. Firm Foundation was the few pages of what was then the Red book. It was named this and also subseuquent books for the color of the outside front cover. So the Red book is the same, ( as Bible Studies for a Firm Foundaton) there also was other books in the series. It contained as next a green book, brown , and purple. Tests were given after each book. We paid for the books, and the course was self directed. Later in the 80's came better printed Bible studies and one on Preparation of the the Bride. All were written by Rose Weiner, also we were greatly encounraged to use studies by New Wine , and their ministries materials, tapes( chrasmatic renewal material from Cathlotic church, Charles Simpson, et all.) On Rose's books, the first ones, Red and Brown books were fairly simple. As things progresed, the studies themselves became more esoteric. Most people, stopped here as the tests were on only on the basic ones. I have them somewhere. I can hunt them up for you if you like. One memory that comes back to me now and again was ,during a meeting of our campus group (a new church I helped establish. I was on staff then). A visting pastor who knew more than we did about national debate that was going on. It was about 1983 then, his the message was from Galatians. He began to read loudly in an excited voice" You foolish Galatans who has bewitched you, ( Gal3:1-29 ) ...did you receieve the Spirit by the works of the law...Having begun in by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? We were writing so madly( to show our selves aproved) that we never heard him. The tradtions of men will really nuillfy the word of God. He was so disapointed ; he really wanted to reach us, for us to hear but we did not. Anyway thank you so so much for this site and your care for those still in boundage; it is on His heart, too. In His Great Love ! | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.171.236.20 |
Hi Thank you all for your kindness.( and hard work) To answer Ulyankee's question on the bible study material. Firm Foundation was the few pages of what was then the Red book. It was named this and also subseuquent books for the color of the outside front cover. So the Red book is the same, ( as Bible Studies for a Firm Foundaton) there also was other books in the series. It contained as next a green book, brown , and purple. Tests were given after each book. We paid for the books, and the course was self directed. Later in the 80's came better printed Bible studies and one on Preparation of the the Bride. All were written by Rose Weiner, also we were greatly encounraged to use studies by New Wine , and their ministries materials, tapes( chrasmatic renewal material from Cathlotic church, Charles Simpson, et all.) On Rose's books, the first ones, Red and Brown books were fairly simple. As things progresed, the studies themselves became more esoteric. Most people, stopped here as the tests were on only on the basic ones. I have them somewhere. I can hunt them up for you if you like. One memory that comes back to me now and again was ,during a meeting of our campus group (a new church I helped establish. I was on staff then). A visting pastor who knew more than we did about national debate that was going on. It was about 1983 then, his the message was from Galatians. He began to read loudly in an excited voice" You foolish Galatans who has bewitched you, ( Gal3:1-29 ) ...did you receieve the Spirit by the works of the law...Having begun in by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? We were writing so madly( to show our selves aproved) that we never heard him. The tradtions of men will really nuillfy the word of God. He was so disapointed ; he really wanted to reach us, for us to hear but we did not. Anyway thank you so so much for this site and your care for those still in boundage; it is on His heart, too. In His Great Love ! | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) New member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Coppertree, Thanks so much for responding... yes, I would be interested in anything you'd be willing to share about--especially the older books. So there was red, green, brown, purple... were there more or was that it? The newer versions are all still readily available through the Weiners' website. ulyankee@yahoo.com thanks much! blessings, ulyankee | ||
| another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall) New member Username: another_brick_in_the_wall Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.137.121.130 |
To Raguyton: Here is another thread involving the various aspects of MSI teachings and so forth: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/584.html?1106717611 Your post attributed so much of your spiritual, social and emotional development to Morning Star. I have a rhetorical question for you: In your post you cite every attribution of your development as a Christian man with giving accolades to MSI....do you not think it odd that you replaced the usage of the name Jesus (or Holy Spirit) with the name of MSI? Coppertree: Praise God you found this board. Praise God for your honesty and integrity of wanting to provide help and healing to us, the next generation. Eee-gads.... The "purple" book is alive and well and reincarnated in the DNA of MSI. Didn't realize that the color code was so similar to Maranatha days. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 98 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Hey gang, When we went out in the mission field, we made bracelets out of colored beads to give out as gifts. The bead colors had meanings: Black - sin Red - blood of christ blue - water baptism green - growth yellow - glory of God The new book series that they are using for their bible studies are also color coded: dark brownish - one2one personal follow-up discipleship (I think the color of this book was changed when the following books came out). purple - foundations blue - preparing for victory red - experiencing victory green - making disciples | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Junior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.1.65.33 |
lc_20, Thanks for recalling that about the beads. Does anyone recall these colors being used anywhere and if so, what their significance was if any? Orange Silver or Gray White thanks, ulyankee | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
Ulyankee - I found one of the beaded bracelets - there is white also - black, red, white, blue, green and yellow. Also, the VLI 1999-2000 catalog has 3 color squares on the front - brown, blue and red. The VLI logo and text is in white. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
BEADS ? THAT'S A NEW ONE TO ME. | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) New member Username: annelewis Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.230.188.147 |
Hello, My name is Anne Lewis and I used to belong to Maranatha from 1982 till its dissolution in 1989 and a little bit beyond. Most of that time I spent in the Washington D.C. church. Before I continue with this post, I would like to apologize to anyone reading this board who I abused, manipulated, discouraged or worse, alienated from serving God. Knowing that blanket apologies aren’t always sufficient, I am more than willing to get down to brass tacks. You may contact me at OaheBlog@aol.com I came to this thread in a rather backwards way i.e. not looking for an anti-Maranatha site. Imagine my surprise at seeing “1990 [n.d.]—Dawson Lewis is sent by “Maranatha” to be the full-time administrator for the South African Maranatha church. The South African Maranatha church was established by Bill Bennot in 1987” as part of the church timeline of significant events in the Maranatha/MSI/Every Nation timeline. I am guessing that this point was mentioned to verify the connection between Maranatha and the Jo’burg His People church. I can’t figure out why else this would be of any significance since we were relatively low level leaders in the Maranatha hierarchy. My first reaction in reading this was “We weren’t sent; we just went.” As implied by the quotation marks, Maranatha had officially ceased to exist at that time. Our move overseas had been in uneven progress for about two years previous and the dissolution did not change our plans. Bill Bennot still wanted us to come to provide administrative support and we still wanted to go. Nobody stateside was willing to “send us out”. A little bit of background about us. Both Dawson and I hit George Washington University in 1982 at the same time the church was starting in DC. We had both made commitments to Christ but were looking for a church. We separately but simultaneously hooked up with the church and were committed from the get-go. We married in 1986 and yes, we subscribed to the “Dating Revelation”. At the time, I thought it was a pretty good idea because it left you free to just be friends. In the DC church, guys and gals were allowed to hang out together. In fact, Dawson, another guy named Sam and I were pretty much inseparable for a while. Dawson worked for the church as the administrator from 1985 – 1989. I served as “handmaiden” during my college years. After graduation and marriage, I worked part time for a while but once the baby came was a stay at home mom. I didn’t do anything official except co-lead a home group for a while but I was considered “on staff”. As an aside, it was during this time that we briefly met Tom Sirotnak at the Gathering of the Holy Spirit (I think that’s what it was called) in 1986 in New Orleans. I remember him clearly because he sat our table during a lunch when the entrée was a huge mound of rice and crawdads. We were all mildly appalled by the crawdads (there’s a reason they are called mudbugs), but I remember Tom’s comments as being particularly funny. In 1989, we were sent to from DC to Gainesville partly to “receive ministry” (the exact reason for which neither Dawson nor I can quite remember) and partly to help coordinate the 1990 MLTS. In July of that year, things went very, very wrong in regards to our relationship with the DC church that pretty much precluded our returning there, although some amends and even a degree of restoration have been made since that time. The MLTS in San Antonio was the last gasp of Maranatha. We were brought up on stage to help us raise support (this was part of the deal to get us to move there to coordinate the conference). It was a pretty respectable amount if I recall correctly but with the dissolution of the ministry the amount received was not the amount pledged. After the MLTS, we spent the next 7 months raising support and awaiting the birth of our second child. In September 1990 we moved to Johannesburg. We came back for a support raising furlough in 1992 and after a short return to Africa, moved permanently back to the US in June of 1993. Since my oldest son was getting ready to start school, we wanted to be near family and thus moved to small city on the Great Plains that is 7 hours from the nearest Maranatha/MSI/Every Nation church. While we haven’t maintained our Maranatha connections, we do keep up with a few of our friends from that time by exchanging Christmas letters. About half are affiliated with MSI/Every Nation. We also support/supported MSI missionaries, all of whom were friends. De-Maranathafication was a long process. It was helped by our time in Jo’burg, which even when it was a Maranatha church was not a totally Maranatha church. It has taken me quite a while to work through, forgive, put into perspective, etc. I would say it took me a good ten years, much longer than it should have since I spent part of those ten years indifferent to God. For the record, I consider a lot of the tactics employed by Maranatha to have been controlling and abusive. Recently, the question was posed to me why did you allow yourself to be controlled. This stopped me cold in my tracks because I’d never given it much thought. Sure there was erroneous teaching, specifically regarding spiritual authority. And there was deception and control and so on. But that didn’t explain why I allowed myself to be controlled. The long and the short of it was I abdicated my personal responsibility and I’m not just talking about being afraid to leave because people would get mad at me. Let’s be real – I liked being in leadership (as minimal as it was), having the respect and admiration of others, as being seen as anointed and gifted, in being part of an elite. That’s why I stayed. That’s why I let myself be controlled. For those who are just coming out of controlling abusive situations, whether it be church, work or family, I pray that you take time to heal and realize that whatever situation you were in was toxic and not caused by you. At some point however, you have to ask yourself the very hard question of why did you stay? Please realize this isn’t “blame the victim” but rather a matter of emotional housekeeping to keep oneself from repeating a dangerous lapse in judgment. The scripture/prayer that I’ve been thinking about lately is 2 Thessalonians 3:5. May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ. Love and steadfastness. Amen. Oh, and about the beads, we never used them either. Either they were before/after my time or it was one of the Maranatha fads which the DC church never embraced. | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Junior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.1.65.33 |
Anne, Thanks so much for posting and for explaining what really happened. The reason why I posted it the way I did was because it was reported in the Forerunner post-breakup: http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0294_South_African_Foreru.html The article does say that Dawson went to be the administrator to Maranatha church, and at the time I thought it important because the the timing was post-breakup. I went back and it does state "went" rather than "sent" as you said so I was in error and I'll correct the timeline. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Being in the "next generation" as Brick put it, sometimes its difficult to fill in the blanks with only facts... especially since a good part of the history deals with events in countries other than the US where I'm from. Thank you so much for your kind words and for sharing your experience with us. blessings, ulyankee ps--someone explained to me off board that the beads might be "gospel beads" that initially came out of Spurgeon's "the wordless book." Is that how it was explained to any of you who recall the beads? | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
Anne, Thanks for your open and honest response. I am sorry for your trials and thank God for your recovery. Can you be more specific about how they controlled you and what went "wrong"... did they ever attack your character or list out your "issues" for you? It seems like some people leave with a struggle - voicing their opinions and those are the ones that get the character attacks. Others leave by sliding under the radar and slowly and quietly disappearing. Their exit seems to be safer. I know some that haven't gone to the church for years, but they are still on the email list and still get christmas cards from the pastors because they didn't voice an opinion when they left and no one really noticed. Others, like me, said our peace on the way out the door and were completely cut off - no relationships left. By your description, it sounds like you are one of the ones that slowly dissapeared. I completely understand when you say you stayed because you liked being a leader and one of the elite. I think most of us on this board fell into that for many years. It plays to our sin of pride. Everyone wants to feel special and gifted. It is easier to feel it when someone is telling you this (even though you have to give up your freedom to hear it), than it is to receive it freely directly from God. As far as why you might have been sent to gainsville to "receive ministry" - there probably was no reason. It seems to me, they just like to "send" the way a weight lifter likes to flex his muscles... it's all a show of power. Can you imagine getting so much control of another human being that you can tell them to move to another city and they move? It's like the military with no benefits and no security - plus you have no memory of when exactly you signed up for this level of obligation to leadership. That was part of my eye-opening - when I saw friends moving from one city to another because leadership told them they thought they heard from God that they should go... what happened to hearing from God directly? Anyway, right now, I am having trouble reading my bible and relating to God. It is encouraging that you still have a relationship with the lord. I hope one day my love for God will be restored. | ||
| another_brick_in_the_wall (another_brick_in_the_wall) New member Username: another_brick_in_the_wall Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.137.121.130 |
I agree with Anne's point. I know that I allowed a lot of the structure to take it's toll on me due to my own struggle with pride and recognition that MSI has acquired a professional flare for implementing. MSI/EN can become intoxicating. | ||
| rlm1979 (rlm1979) New member Username: rlm1979 Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 67.66.219.252 |
Hey everybody! My name is Robert from Morning Star Church of Houston. I welcome any and all questions and concerns. email: rlm1979@yahoo.com I hope we can all speak peacefully in love. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
OK IC_20 YOU STRUCK A NERVE WITH YOUR QUOTE, "CAN YOU IMAGINE GETTING SO MUCH CONTROL OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING THAT YOU CAN TELL THEM. . IT'S LIKE THE MILITARY WITH NO BENEFITS AND NO SECURITY . ." THAT USED TO PUZZLE ME TOO. WHERE ON EARTH DO THESE PASTORS GET THE AUTHORITY TO THINK THEY CAN CONTROL PEOPLE IN SUCH A MANNER ? I USED TO SEE IT ALL THE TIME. I WAS ONE OF THE FEW QUESTIONING THE "BLIND TRUST" THAT THE CONGREGANTS WERE GIVING THESE "PASTORS". I BET THEY WERE GLAD TO SEE ME WALK OUT. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
AND BY THE WAY I HAD TROUBLE READING MY BIBLE AFTER I LEFT TOO. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.152.165.117 |
Hello, Thank you Anne for your post about your experiences. I was on staff, also. At one time I was having many discples in a new church that I helped to start along with others. We thought that we were doing God's will. I have repented to mostof the people that I could find. We were local elders approved by the leadership in Gainesville. We were removed by the local pastor " because he felt that were was something wrong this us". We were after years of dedicated , unselfish service taken before regional leaders, national leaders. They found nothing wrong with us. But the local pastor still proceed with , the fact that he felt there was something wrong. There was nothing in Scpirture for a fault for us. It was a feeling that he had. So we were pushed out. I pulled back at this point because I thought that this pastor who was also a good friend and had even been in my wedding party, was going to have a stress induced heart attack or break down. I believe that this series of events can be traced to my having given a bible verse as a word in our weekly local leadership meeting. The word was about giving the best seat to the wealthy in meetings. I thought that this would be accepted, as I had given many words in corporate meetings over the years. These words were acepted. they came true in peoples' lives. The discredit process started then. I had been succesful in my discpleship ministry , as I see now because I did not do was local leadrs wanted me( to be heavy haned.)I was successful because when I was told about something in someone's life that the leaderhip wanted me to correct. I would pray and then do nothing but be a friend to these college students. Genuine healing, mending took place in their lives and mine. We would do bible sudies, word studies, play, swim, sing at retirement homes, etc. They never knew the secret of my sucess. When we were forced out , peolple were told various things, that we left because we were selfish, unspiirtual. We were shunned, people would cross the street to avoid us. This contiunes even today, to some degree many years later. There is healing after event such as this. I found Gene Ewdards book, 'Letters to Devastated Christian' and 'Tale of Three Kings' to be very helpful. The later book talks about Israel desiring a king, an earthy one.God wanted alone to be their king.I found some truth here as I had done the same thing as ancient Israel had even though I loved Him and His church.It saw in the that when Samuel warned Israel about wanting a king, that painful things would happen to them. They still wanted one and God allowed that to occur. I thought that ,that king was Saul, but it was not it was David( a man after God's own heart). He wants to go to Him directly , and I let man be my go between. I had an earthy king and that kingdom that can not help but hurt. To be in this postion, at one point I had to susupend reason and will of my own; and I did. It was so the way up, and I bowed my neck to them. But He is gracious and took care of when I was in a far land from Him. He is the good shepherd indeed. I hope this brings healing and some clarification as how we can go so far off the path. In His Great Love.}}}} (Message edited by coppertree on July 17, 2005) (Message edited by coppertree on July 17, 2005) | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
COPPERTREE YOU WERE NOT ALONE, I WAS SHUNNED AND DISCREDITED ALSO WHEN I LEFT. DOESN'T ANYONE GET IT ? | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) New member Username: annelewis Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.230.188.147 |
ulyankee, Trying to reconstruct a time line from documents is a daunting task, even if the history is relatively recent. Your willingness to correct a minor detail speaks well of your intentions. LC, You wrote: “Can you be more specific about how they controlled you and what went "wrong"... did they ever attack your character or list out your "issues" for you?”. The control was pretty standard. The Lordship message was subtly distorted to equate making Jesus Lord of your life with being completely committed to Maranatha. Spiritual authority meant that you had to submit to your elders, agree or disagree/right or wrong, lest you be considered unteachable and rebellious. There was almost no privacy; everyone knew your business and you knew everyone else’s. There was a definite “corporate culture” that was equated not only with excellence but godliness. (May I just finally say I look dumpy in Laura Ashley dresses.) Additionally, non-church related interests and pursuits were, if not actively discouraged, then considered always subordinate to church related to activities. Heaven help you if you were overweight as I was. And leaving was tantamount to backsliding since people in this church were “completely sold out.” As with most lies, there is enough of the truth in them to make them seem right. One of the things that all abusers do is re-cast reality until the abused’s sense of what is right is completely skewed so that, in my case, I could honestly measure my commitment to God by how committed I was to the church. I’m a little reluctant to go into detail about what went wrong with our relationship with the DC church since as I mentioned above some amends have been made and a degree of restoration has been achieved. Suffice it to say we were held completely responsible (and we took complete responsibility) for something that we were only partially responsible for. I don’t know that my character per se was attacked. I did have my issues detailed. I didn’t dress right, I should wear more makeup, I was unteachable. I needed to lose weight. And that was just in the first two years. After that, I learned how to be a good Maranathan, so I pretty much was invisible. “By your description, it sounds like you are one of the ones that slowly disappeared.” Quite honestly, our departure from the church was as much as us leaving Maranatha as it was Maranatha leaving us. I think it was easier to retain relationships of a sort at that time since the whole thing was falling apart then and we all had a chance to re-shuffle and re-organize without impunity. Our leaving Jo’burg was due partly to our financial situation and partly to the fact that the administrative arm of His People was moving to Cape Town, thus leaving us without a purpose in South Africa. I don’t think the Bennots were thrilled that we left - no boss is excited to see a team member that functions well depart - but at no time were we made to feel like we were leaving God’s best for something less. Being completely cut off must have been very traumatic for you. I am sorry to say that I did this to other people, three people I was close to in particular, and it is one of the things that I am most grieved about. Happily, I have just reconciled with one of them – in fact that’s how I ended up at this board. (She emailed me and asked how certain people we knew we doing and in googling those people’s names, I ended up at this board.) But getting back to the matter at hand, completely cutting off people who leave your church over a disagreement is ridiculous. True, there may be some tensions, but shunning in the Bible seems to be reserved for very serious sins, such as heresy and sleeping with your step mother. “Anyway, right now, I am having trouble reading my bible and relating to God. It is encouraging that you still have a relationship with the lord. I hope one day my love for God will be restored.” This sounds familiar. Unfortunately, there is no easy way through the doubt and disillusionment that comes from this type of situation. Essentially what you are doing is relearning who God is and re-establishing a relationship with Him. And, it’s antithetical to this process to tell you how to do it. The rest of us can encourage but God has to be the one who leads you through this, who sorts things out for you, who re-teaches you by His Holy Spirit. I never learned this in Maranatha, but God is well able to do this. | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) New member Username: annelewis Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.230.188.147 |
Brick, intoxicating. That's a good word for it. Coppertree, it's good that God is faithful, even when we get screwed up. Up, unfortunately people don't get it. Sometimes, we only see what we want to. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 172.133.33.191 |
Anne, Thanks for your response. It saddens me that these same things that happened to you in Maranatha are still happening today in Morningstar International/Every Nation. I am glad you found peace with the people you shunned and that you found this board. I don't know what I would do if some of the people who shunned me called. It would be a difficult test. Truth is, right now I miss them but I am glad to have them out of my life. They were constantly putting me down, listing issues, telling me I wasn't really a leader... I just never met their standards. I tried talking to one of the pastors about it and he suggested that I look for another church. I asked him if he was kicking me out and he said no. So, I stayed a little longer. But, I was being shunned long before I actually left all because I voiced my opinion. It started when I told someone that a pastor said something inappropriate to me. Suddenly, I was "speaking the lies of satan" and I was the enemy from then on out. I made efforts to reconcile with the church and they seemed to be responding (probably because of the cashflow they were getting out of me). But, in the long run, I was never believed. I spoke out against one of the anointed and years later I was still the enemy. The part that confuses me is this: when I would try to leave the church, they would tell me not to leave on these terms. But, they wouldn't work with me to resolve the issues because in their minds the issues were all mine (they took no responsibility). As time went on and I saw other relationships in strife and again them taking no responsibility, I realized that unless I completely agreed with them that I was just telling the lies of satan (which I was not), there would never be peace. What I realized was that everything they accused me of was their own sins: problems with money and the authority that God put over me (they were talking about themselves not Jesus). It is difficult walking away from people who think you have a big problem. Part of me wanted to stay to prove them wrong... big mistake. The longer I stayed, the more they found wrong with me. But, I am out now and I am rebuilding my life. My non-believing neighbor across the street, who watched my very busy life of serving the church for years, said to me the other day: You were a "sucker". She was right. Her bold and simple analysis of what happened to me really helped. It almost made me see humor in it. The healing continues... Thanks again for sharing your story. I am a little angry at God for letting this happen to so many people for so many years. But, he warned us about the pharocies in the NT and the kings in the OT. I just didn't listen. I missed it in my efforts to get their approval. | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) New member Username: annelewis Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 66.115.216.168 |
LC, It's good you are honest about your anger with God. I think we can be angry, even with God, and not sin. God knows we see Him through a glass dimly and sometimes we just don't understand. A while back, I was thinking about God and wondering about that old conundrum, if God is all powerful, could He make a square a circle? To which the thought popped into my mind, "He could, but it would kill you." God is all powerful, but sometimes He doesn't do things because in the end more people would be harmed than helped. Maybe He sees the day when we all stand before the judgement seat of Christ and that from Maranatha/MSI/EN which is consumed by fire will be fire enough. Or maybe He sees that there are still people within the ministry that would be more damaged by its dissolution than by its continuance. Or maybe there are people like raguyton who need an MSI to keep them on the straight and narrow so they don't go around sowing anymore destruction to themselves and others. One of the conclusions that I've come to is that we don't get to have it perfect here. Because of the joint combination of the direct action of Satan, the falleness of the world and just our own general finiteness, bad stuff happens. These bad hurtful wrong things which happen do not in any way disprove the goodness, kindness or love of God. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.170.140.132 |
Thank you all for your honestly and openess, it isn't to easy face all that we went though. It is good to be out and hard to start again trusting people, trusting God. I now see some truth in the statement that God is in the details. For those still in examine those little things that don't add up, the small indiscretions by the leaders. Those details are telling and are important.} | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) New member Username: annelewis Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 66.115.216.168 |
Ack! In re-reading my post, I realize that I'm sounding way more didactic than I need to. I do realize that while we are walking a similar road that God will show others a slightly different perspective than He showed me. I don't mean to come along sounding as if my bits of wisdom are THE keys that will have this all make sense. | ||
| rule62 (rule62) New member Username: rule62 Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 68.100.201.70 |
Raguyton, I am not even sure where to start with your post from Monday. Friend, there is nothing wrong with asking for suggestions from someone you trust, but when they are telling you what to do, then you have crossed a line. You are no longer seeking God's will, but their will. Your line about "not having any spiritual authority in my life" - what about the Holy Trinity? Again, spiritual direction yes, but dictating your behavior? Please tell me where you find that in historical teaching or scripture? How can any person know who is right for me in a relationship? I also take great issue with your comment that all churches have problems in doctrine. That is simply not true. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 172.149.63.38 |
Annie - don't stress about it. Your post was encouraging. It showed a lot of love and mercy in your heart. Peace. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
TO ANNELEWIS : DID I HEAR YOU SAY YOU WERE AT THE D.C CHURCH ? I WAS THERE ! I COULD TELL THINGS WERE HEADED DOWNHILL BEFORE I LEFT. WE MUST HAVE SEEN EACH OTHER THOUGH OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T TALK. | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) New member Username: annelewis Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.230.188.147 |
UP, We might have talked. When were your approximate dates? We moved to Gainesville April 1 of 1989. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
TO ANNELEWIS : AROUND '88-'90. ARE YOU ANY RELATION TO DAWSON LEWIS ? WHAT HAPPENED TO MARK CAULK ? I HEARD HE AND HIS FAMILY LEFT AROUND 1990 BUT ARE IN ANOTHER CHURCH IN VIRGINIA. I WENT BACK TO THE CHURCH TO VISIT A FEW TIMES IN THE MID 90'S. I SAW NO CHANGE, SO I LEFT AGAIN. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
TO ANNELEWIS (AGAIN) : OK I READ YOUR EARLIER POST. I MET YOU AND DAWSON. I LEFT IN '90 AND A YEAR LATER WAS IN THE GULF WAR BUT THAT'S ANOTHER STORY. I'M SURPRISED THAT NEITHER YOU NOR DAWSON SAW THE ARTICLES IN THE GW HATCHET THAT SOUGHT TO BAN MARANATHA ACTIVITIES ON GW'S CAMPUS. I TRIED TO WARN SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF THAT CHURCH WHEN I LEFT. I KNEW WHERE IT WAS GOING ON AND DIDN'T THINK THAT THAT WAS A CHURCH, CERTAINLY NOT IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE. WHY WAS YOUR EXIT SO PAINFUL ? | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) New member Username: annelewis Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.230.188.147 |
Up, Dawson and then I were the chief defenders of Maranatha in any GW Hatchet articles that ran from '83-'85. The way we interpreted those articles was we must have been doing great damage to the kingdom of darkness to get so much opposition. So instead of causing me to ask "what's going on here?", I became more convinced than ever that Maranatha was right. Persecution has a way of isolating and intensifying people's beliefs, regardless of whether the beliefs are right or wrong. And there was enough right about what I believed to make it very easy to swallow the wrong. Regarding the Caulks, I'd heard the same thing, that he was in Northern Virginia. But this was a while ago, so I have no idea where they are or what they are doing now. About why our exit was so painful, well - the exact details are mercifully a little fuzzy. Quite honestly, though, I don't know that we ever really understood specifically why we got sent to Gainesville. (For the record, the IO crowd didn't really care we were sent to receive ministry. They were just happy to have someone work on the MLTS.) I think the painful part boils down to we had fallen out of favor with the leadership and had a tremendous sense of shame. Then when Maranatha fell apart, I could see just how much in error we had been. So I was angry at being manipulated, at the waste of years and money. I don't want to name names or dish the dirt partly because the people being named and dished aren't here to defend themselves and partly because it's been 15+ years and I'm sure I'd get some details wrong. I've been out of Maranatha (not counting my time in Africa) twice as long as I was in. I hope this doesn't sound callous, but in many ways I've moved on. And to those who have just left or in the process of leaving any abusive relationship, you will too. | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Yes, the front row seat thing! Has any one heard or read an explaination for why pastors get front row seats and also visiting famous rich and wealthy? Is it class distinction? | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.168.76.177 |
Hello All ! And grace to you , Anne for your bravely stating what happened to you and yours. It will help many people. And I too, only saw love and care in your postings. Keep them coming. To Speakword; About the best seats, in meetings. This how I and my family were asked to leave after being on staff, as discpleship leaders. I had a word ( one of many over the years that I gave)about not giving, as it says in James the best seat to wealthy visitors, etc. When I gave that scripture that I felt I should. It was met wiith silence, then a member of our leadership group commmented that" there goes the offering number." The wealthy in our meetings were put in the front.So, as he explained it to me ;it would be hard from them to leave without giving. And that we should have the offering earlier in the meeting, because he could see the dollars going away. He felt that it should come after worship when peolpe were feeling good and happy. It was a slow push out from then on for us. I have detailed in an earlier post.} (Message edited by coppertree on February 18, 2005) | ||
| ontheroad (ontheroad) Junior Member Username: ontheroad Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.10.175.62 |
Annelewis wrote in the post above: " we must have been doing great damage to the kingdom of darkness to get so much opposition. So instead of causing me to ask "what's going on here?", I became more convinced than ever that Maranatha was right. Persecution has a way of isolating and intensifying people's beliefs, regardless of whether the beliefs are right or wrong." I experienced this at my former-Maranatha church, too. The pastor equated any "challenge" the church faced as persecution and attack from the enemy. If he anyone left the church, if anyone challenged his authority or leadership or even questioned him, it was considered a persecutory attack against his leadership and against the church. Also, many times (most, if not all), when church members faced difficulty - health problems, financial problems, marital problems, job loss, problems with children, you name it - it was always the result of one of two things: Either the church member was being so obedient to leadership (i.e., the pastor), that he was under attack from the enemy for being "so right" that he was making the enemy ticked off, OR the church member was under attack because he had disagreed with leadership or had some other rebellion or "hidden sin" which opened doors to the enemy for attack. Everything was hyper-spiritualized. It was a danged if you do, danged if you don't scenario: Follow leadership, who supposedly had a direct hotline on God's will for everyone, and you were instantly targeted by the enemy as a persecuted martyr. Disagree with leadership, and you had opened doors for the enemy to attack you. Either way: attack, attack, attack. The pastor never raised the possibilites that maybe people disagreed with him or left the church because things were WRONG; maybe people were sick just because illness happens; maybe people had financial problems because financial struggles just happen, etc. Nope....everything had a hyper-spiritual reason behind it. Now, I'm not saying that our spiritual enemy doesn't target people at times or that there are not spiritual connections at times to bad things that happen to people. But when *everything* is assigned a spiritual cause or attack, especially when it is directly tied to being in or out of line with leadership, something is just plain WRONG. Which brings me to another point...the spiritual covering part. Our pastor equated our spiritual "protection" to whether or not we were properly under his covering. If we disagreed with him or even raised questions with his authority or direction of the church, we were automatically rebellious and out of his spiritual covering and thus open to spiritual attack. If we followed his leadership, we were spiritually "protected" and under his spiriitual covering. This idolizes the pastor and puts him in a mediator position between us and God in a place where only Jesus should be. WHERE is what Jesus did on the cross in all of that? If we have to have a pastor's "covering" in order to be in spiritual right-standing, that means Jesus' death and resurrection wasn't enough for us to have a direct perseonal relationship with God. Jesus is the mediator; not a pastor. Unforunately, I am still un-learning this faulty doctrine, both in concept and in emotion, as it was drilled into me for the 12+ years I was in that church. I wonder if it is a control-based motive that created the whole idea that people need their pastor's "covering" to be in right-standing with God, and thus "protected" spiritually. I know our church was told that if we felt like our pastor was wrong in an area, keep silent and pray for God to work on Him, and submit to his authority anyway. That meant disregarding our own conscience and conviction to follow a man. It sure kept people in line, though. We were all afraid to fall out of God's protection and lose our spiritual covering, so we didn't challenge the pastor too often. Those that did were brow-beaten back into submission or ostracized until they couldn't stand being there anymore. And those that left the church were labelled as now totally out of God's will and the proper pastoral covering. When the pastor learned that I and a few others were considering leaving the church, he wrote an e-mail to us, telling us that if we left, our decisions would "come up before the judgment throne of God". What a potentially fear-inducing statement! By that point, however, we e-mail recipients had become aware of so many horrible things going on, that the pastor's attempts to control us into staying backfired, and that e-mail was one of the clinchers for us leaving. Did others experience similar things along the lines of spiritual covering and spiritual persecution/attack dependant on your "submission" or lack thereof to leadership? | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
TO ONTHEROAD: I EXPERIENCED THE EXACT SAME THING. WHEN I USED TO BUMP INTO SOME OF THE MEMBERS AFTER I LEFT, THEY WOULD NOT EVEN TALK TO ME. WHAT'S WORSE IS THAT WHEN I MADE THE DECISION TO LEAVE AND MY ABSENSE WAS NOTICED I RECIEVED SEVERAL PHONE CALLS WARNING ME THAT SOME CALAMITY WOULD SOON BEFALL ME FOR LEAVING. TO THIS DAY I BELIEVE 98% OF WHAT I LEARNED THERE WAS NONSENSE. | ||
| ontheroad (ontheroad) Junior Member Username: ontheroad Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 4.10.175.62 |
Upcase: I was told calamities would happen to me, too. In fact, just the opposite happened after I left. My marriage is alot better, after years of severe problems, I got a huge promotion/raise at work, and some health problems my daughter had for years are almost gone. Of course, if my former pastor knew this, he would say that I was experiencing "false peace" and "false blessings", as was the case with other members who left and experienced good things in their lives. He would say that their being "better" was a false peace or blessing from the enemy for the purpose of just making them think they were in God's will for leaving the church. I, too, believe that the LARGE majority of what I was told was nonsense. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
ontheroad - Yes - I had the same experiences including the hateful email on the way out. The agree to disagree thing confused me at first. I thought the pastor was finally being reasonable by saying we could agree to dissagree. But, like you said, it only worked for him if that meant that even though I disagreed, I was still in submission to him. Sick. The spiritual covering thing had be scared when I first left. I was waiting for my world to fall into a crashing mess. But, I am doing ok. I have only been out for a few months. But, it seems that I am getting my life back in order, making healthy friendships and I have a whole new understanding of peace and joy. I had so much anxiety while in that church. As far as the causes of illness - I got sick and experienced all you described. I was asked about sin in my life, people were telling me they could sense something was wrong and they were praying for my salvation... Some said something about the church members being under attack... When I went for prayer the first time - everyone was excited about praying for me. When I went for prayer a month later because I was still sick - I was asked "are you still sick" - like there was something wrong with my faith. The truth is that I got sick because I was working two jobs to come up with the money to pay the building fund pledge that I had committed to during a temporary state of insanity after a hyped up worship session and building campaign message. I was also serving at the church several nights a week and then their were the fasting sessions and the "counseling" which constantly put the sins of my past in my face and poured shame on me... My health crashed because of my involvement in the church. I have been recovering since I backed out of my responsibilities in the church and then finally left - God is good. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 110 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
upcase 20 - I am sorry you had the same experiences. I hope your recovery is going well and your peace and joy have returned to you. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.139.236.41 |
Hi -this is for lc_20, I had no idea that you are out only , a few monthes. You are so level thinking, kind and loving, stable in your love for our Savior and His Own. It speaks well of your fruit , in spite of all that you have gone though. Thank you!} | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
TO IC_20 AND ONTHEROAD : THANK YOU ! TO BOTH OF YOU ! ACTUALLY I AM DOING VERY WELL. I JUST DON'T WANT TO SEE OTHER PEOPLE MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE. THANKS AGAIN. | ||
| sparky1240 (sparky1240) New member Username: sparky1240 Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 211.28.223.70 |
Just a Question for all who've left MSI- Have you tried to convince your friends within the church that what MSI is doing is wrong? How did you try and approach them? And have you had any success? Any information would be very much appreciated. Thanks. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
I DID THAT. I UNCOVERED DOCUMENTATION THAT CONFIRMED MY SUSPICIONS SHORTLY BEFORE I LEFT. I PRESENTED IT SECRETLY TO SOME OF MY FRIENDS. THEY ACTED AS THOUGH THEY WERE AFRAID TO LEAVE (IT IS A BIG STEP). IT'S KIND OF HARD WHEN THE PEOPLE THERE SENSE THAT YOU ARE NOT WITH THEM. THEY PUT A BRICK WALL AROUND YOU THAT DRIVES YOU OUT. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.12 |
coppertree - thanks for your kind words. I have good days and bad days. On the bad days, I have anger toward God - anger that is tempered by a fear of God. On the good days, I am greatful for the mercy that He showed me in leading me out. The God I was taught about in msi/en is not the same God who helped me through my recent illness. It is amazing how much you can learn in a crisis situation. I am starting over in learning about the character of Christ. I have a lot to unlearn and a lot to learn. Sparky, No one is going to leave as long as they are believing that they are one of the elite hanging with God's best. You can't tell someone that they are not in God's will without looking like the enemy. They have to witness it for themselves through a crisis or a betrayal or through their own discernment. For people deap into it, even clear evidence of a problem, like what upcase 20 found, will accomplish nothing. | ||
| sparky1240 (sparky1240) New member Username: sparky1240 Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 211.28.223.70 |
Upcase- If I may ask, what type of documentation was it that you found? | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.171.24.199 |
Hello All- It is a great blessing to me to have found this site. Thank you all. To- Upper case, You were looking for Mark Clauk, in an earlier post. Mike, his brother had a Maranatha Church at U of Michigan, Ann Arbor. Mark took his church out early; maybe he could help. In His Great Love !} | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
TO SPARKY : I FOUND A LOT OF DOCUMENTATION, A LOT. ALSO, THERE WAS AN OFFICE OF THE CULT AWARENESS NETWORK IN BETEHESDA, MD. AND OUT OF CURIOSITY I GAVE THEM A VISIT. THEY HAD A LOT OF INFORMATION TOO. THEY SHOWED ME ARTICLES FROM THE G.W. UNIVERSITY HATCHETT, THE CAMPUS NEWSPAPER, DESCRIBING THIS GROUP AND HOW THEY WERE SEEKING TO BAN IT FROM CAMPUS. YOU COULD ALSO CONTACT THE UNIVERSITY DIRECTLY AND GET BACK ISSUES FROM THEIR NEWSPAPER. I BELIEVE IT'S ON MICROFILM. IT GOES BACK AS FAR AS 1984, MAYBE EARLIER. THE DOCUMENTATION OPENED MY EYES BUT JUST CONFIRMED WHAT I HAD SUSPECTED. TO COPPERTREE : I'M NOT LOOKING FOR MARK CAULK, BUT THANKS ANYWAY. YOU SAY HE TOOK HIS CHURCH OUT EARLY ? ACTUALLY HE DID LEAVE, BUT THE PEOPLE WHO ATTENDED HIS CHURCH ACTUALLY FORM THE FOUNDATION OF THE CURRENT MSI CHURCH. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) New member Username: coppertree Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.138.223.197 |
Hi Uppercase 20 at 64.12.117.12 post from Feb17, 2005 11:50 was looking for Mark Caulk( For give my mispell) , he was looking for Mark. I had a mistype, it was Mike Caulk that took his church out in Ann Arbor. I hope this helps. Mike and and Mark are brothers. } | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
OK THAT MAKES MORE SENSE. HOWEVER I WOULD LIKE TO COMMEND THEM FOR HAVING THE CHARACTER TO ADMIT THEIR ERROR AND LEAVE. | ||
| upcase20 (upcase20) Junior Member Username: upcase20 Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 205.188.116.9 |
OK, WHERE DID EVERYBODY GO ? | ||
| samaritan (samaritan) New member Username: samaritan Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 24.1.50.151 |
UPCASE: http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/3380.html?1109883778 | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Well now, how can we prevent coming across as bitter, angry, hurt and twisted people? I think we need to just let people like John keep on writing. He knows best after being in cults himself. He can recognise a cult a mile away with his genetics degree. Now how may cults have you been in again, John? And your wife? Now where did I put that keyboard and mouse, again? | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
People on this board also have university degrees and the school of life. They also have the Holy Spirit, discernment, giftings, intelligence etc. Some have been in the movement for 20 years! Why do you come across as arrogant, defensive, superior and righteous with your constant references to good/sound/excellent doctrine? Good doctrine alone is an abomination to God Almighty. Your good doctrine was not always there. Change your tone. I am sure that you did not like what I wrote above. We can act like children till kingdom come and so what. Our works don't prove our love for Jesus, they are fruit. To the young man crowing about his work for Jesus in his 3 or 5 years in HP, well done. Now go do some ministry in secret away from the admiring eyes of your leaders and don't tell them either. A bit of moonlighting for Jesus will do your arrogance some damage. | ||
| the_west_here_i_come (the_west_here_i_come) New member Username: the_west_here_i_come Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 12.214.208.203 |
Just curious if anyone heard about two pending lawsuits against EveryNation, Inc specifically their high school ministry? Why did MSI change their name.. I researched my own reasons but just curious | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 257 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
Yes - there was something posted on it on the following factnet thread. Morning Star International / Every Nation Churches and Ministries » Morning Star International / Every Nation Churches part 4 also there is a subthread related to the topic. I think someone actually posted a link to the news report on that thread. | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 258 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.100.9 |
I found the link for you http://www.newschannel5.com/content/investigates/11199.asp | ||
| aletheia (aletheia) New member Username: aletheia Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.216.187.39 |
Last night, after the Every Nation "Equip '05" conference ended in Nashville with awesome worship and preaching (imparting their strategic vision for discipleship-based churches), my spirit was so grieved that I stayed up till 4:00 am praying. I was discerning problems in the EN organization concepts/doctrine and leadership, which is new to me this year. As I was praying last night, the Holy Spirit came upon me with this PROPHETIC WARNING to the leaders of EN: "Take your hands off MY Church." _________________________________________________ All that I have been discerning about EN et al, has been so amazingly confirmed on this website (which I only discovered today. Thanks so much to those of you who have labored to communicate the righteous Truth, especially Ulyankee, who has posted such pertinent, factual information on this website. }}} | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Aletheia Why did you feel that you had to post this message you have here and not directly to these leaders? | ||
| ulyankee (ulyankee) Intermediate Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 202 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 130.70.157.190 |
Alethia, Welcome. I hope that you can discern that what I've posted I've done so out of love and concern for my brothers and sisters in Every Nation such as yourself. My intent is to provide information to those desiring it, so that people can make their own informed decisions. I've posted this before... but a year and a half ago the Lord spoke to me about bringing a word to a body that has forgotten that Christ is the Head. See Colossians 2:19. The Body of Christ is always His, and He is always the Head. He has not continued to delegate headship and access to Him through priests as was done in Old Testament days, but we all are to hold fast directly to Him. The veil covering the Holy of Holies was torn the day He died upon the cross, and now all believers can enter His presence through Christ rather than through a legalistic system of priests and sacrifices (we are saved by grace, not works). In spirit, this seems to be pretty much the same message that the Holy Spirit impressed upon you (correct me if I'm wrong). I pray that EN leaders read this board, and take to heart what many of us are saying here rather than just discounting it out of hand as the result of a critical spirit. I pray that people awaken to the truth, that Christ alone is the Head and that it is His church, and that if there are any who need to repent of believing or acting otherwise, that they do so. blessings, ulyankee | ||
| aletheia (aletheia) New member Username: aletheia Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.216.187.22 |
Thank you both for replying to my post dated 7-11-05. speakword2004, I posted the prophetic word here, not because I fear man (the IAT or other EN leaders), but because I want the word to have a global impact, communication via the Web. I also believe that a prophetic warning to the leaders would be considered a negative word coming from a critical spirit, and thereby not well-received. ulankee, I do discern your love and concern for EN bros. and sisters, and also your maturity in the faith. "God is not unjust; He will not forget your work and the love you have shown Him as you have helped His people and continue to help them" (Heb. 6:20). I thank God for you. In Jesus, my Life, aletheia | ||
| speakword2004 (speakword2004) New member Username: speakword2004 Post Number: 15 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 198.54.202.4 |
Aletheia, I value your honesty and openess. I for one would not want to censor you for being real with your fellow Christians. You will realise that your leaders must either receive your word and pray about it and take it into consideration or reject it openly or silently. This is sad. I truely hope that they directly address your declaration and give an answer that others like you and me believe that the Lord requires. The arrogance of ministry is one major issue that has led to the downfall of many amazing ministries. For some years people have been giving your leaders the same warnings. It is time that they heeded for the sake of the brethren. Jesus Christ is Lord and His will will ultimately prevail. Once again, I salute you for your courage and I understand that it does not come from selfish ambition if it is true that you have been completely honest. If you belive that you can help his people where you are by speaking forth the truth then I pray for His grace to be with you furthermore. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) Intermediate Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 116 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.132.167.174 |
Hi Aletheia, Thank you for your note to this board. I too was in your position once. I was in leadership, on staff and got a word from Our Lord for our Church. I would encourage you to pray and consider what He wants you to do. You may be called to intersession on this. As I was in a church I helped start and supported, and was a prophetic voice; I gave my word and verse. After this my family and I were discredited, brought before national leaders ( who did not find anything wrong with us). We were elders but slowly we were pushed out; with further and now greater discreditation took place.We were finally targeted as from the devil and given the left foot of fellowship. I wanted to share this with you, as it may well happen to you. I now know He wanted me to share that word that I did; and I know that one day fruit will come forward from my obedience. | ||
| aletheia (aletheia) New member Username: aletheia Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.216.187.22 |
speakword2004 & coppertree - Thanks for your input. This may be my last posting for awhile (busy schedule). Coppertree, so sorry to hear about what happened, yet I pray in agreement with you that fruit will come from your obedience. I have been in ministry and leadership (not MSI/EN) for many years, and even SURVIVED the shepherding movement. Trust my discernment, the IAT will not receive a prophetic warning unless it comes from among themselves (the "apostles") or the prophetic presbytery. Pray and interceed, I will. Amen. | ||
| coppertree (coppertree) Intermediate Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 117 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.147.92.148 |
Hi Alethia-God will reach them As He did maranatha; I was in the prophetic presbytery. many people have already spoken and are spoken. The need is for ears to hear.. Please keep in touch and keep posting} | ||
| john_r_jones (john_r_jones) Intermediate Member Username: john_r_jones Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 65.13.172.230 |
Recaulk, please say hi to your mom and dad for me. If you're concerned about weird you've come to the right place we're all reconnecting in some fashion. John | ||
| lc_20 (lc_20) Intermediate Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 326 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 205.188.117.13 |
recaulk, Thanks for posting. I often worry about the children raised in maranatha - especially the pastors kids. I am glad your family was able to stay together and stay clear of the maranatha/msi/en teachings. I am sorry that you have painful memories but glad to hear that your healing continues. Reconnecting through this board has been a safe way to talk out hurts of the past for me and helped tremendously with my healing. I hope that it can serve you in the same way. Welcome. If you need help finding the more current threads, let us know. | ||
| annelewis (annelewis) Junior Member Username: annelewis Post Number: 28 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 24.230.188.154 |
Hi Rachel, It's good to hear from you. My husband sent you a lengthier email off-forum but I thought I would extend my public greetings to you. I am glad that your family survived Maranatha. I don't think its weird that you want to reconnect with that time of your life. I don't know if I would use the word closure but there is something emotionally satisfying about integrating the events of the past with who you are today. Please send my regards to all your family, especially your parents. | ||
| recaulk26 (recaulk26) New member Username: recaulk26 Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.114.25.199 |
Hi Anne. I replied to Dawson's e-mail yesterday, but let me say hello to you publicly too. I really appreciate your thoughtful contributions to this board as I've read more of them. In light of how many people still have something to say about the big "M" 15 years later makes me feel a little less Norma-Desmond-Sunset-Boulevard about my interest in it. I will send your hello on to my parents. Thanks again. | ||
| nicknak New member Username: nicknak Post Number: 1 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
recaulk26, you would not remember me, but I remember when you were born! I go way back with your parents...I still think the world of both of them. So glad to know they are free from MCM. Your family holds a very special place in my heart!! |
