| Author | Message | ||
     Anonymous |
My daughter is 18, graduated last spring. She is a very mature, conservative, faithful to the Lord,young lady. She began dating an apostolic pentacostal boy 4 months ago. She no longer beleives our gospel is the correct one. She has changed her appearance, who she will associate with, and has for the first time become unbelievably rebelious in our family. This boy and his parents have convinced her that God would not want her under our influence at all and she should break away. She was told not to share details of her life with us, only to eat very minimal at times they agreed on to be more spiritual (she is losing weight drastically). This boy wants every waking moment of her time and even got her to quit her job, because he felt demons there. She worked in a hospital and has always felt it was her calling to be a nurse. He says he wants to marry her, but she has to prove she is trustworthy by making any change he wants. He has made subtle threats that other girls that had families that interfered, suffered consequences, usually they were turned into the law for some reason and underwent investigations (I don't really know if this is true). There is much more, but I am worried sick and would appreciate any help. She still lives at home, but his family offered to take her in if we tried to stop her. I can't even believe I'm writing all this about my daughter. This is not who she was 4 months ago and I'm afraid of losing her even more!!! We didn't see this coming. Until a month ago, we were under the impression that he was interested in breaking away from pentacostal, but it was all an act. We would appreciate anything that anyone can share with us. | ||
| Anonymous |
I wrote the previous post about my daughter and forgot to mention that we are not pentacostal, we are baptist. My daughter was saved by grace through faith 7 years ago and she is now being taught that she was not truly saved because she doesn't speak in tongues. | ||
| Rita Bryant |
I am so sorry for you and the situation your daughter has put herself in. It is very dangerous for a person to allow people to control their life in the name of "God". I have a son who has gone a similar way and all we can do is pray for him and try to keep a line of communication open. It is very difficult to observe your child making decisions and changing right before your eyes. You can read about my son on this site under the cult section and God's Word Fellowship. One thing is certain, God's Word does not return void and it sounds like you have given her the upbringing that is right. God will NEVER leave her, or you, and you can have peace in knowing that she is God's child, He will not lose ANY of His creation! | ||
| Andrew Perschbacher |
I am a pastor of a small church working on an Indian reservation. The best thing that can be done is to bathe your daughter in regular daily prayer. That is keep bringing her to the Lord regarding this situation. There are many young people that under go this type of manipulation of their faith; when I was a teen, pentecostals tried to change what I believed also. Ask the Lord to put an hedge about your daughter and to separate her from this influence. Ask the Lord further to bring to her memory that which she has been taught. Remember the promise of scripture: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Claim that promise and keep on praying, believing that the Lord will intervene. The Bible teaches that we should "cry out" unto the Lord. Prayer is important, but in this kind of situation it is good to cry out unto God. Sometimes it is our helpless crying out for help that God is waiting for. Hope this will help. Will be praying for you and her. A Baptist pastor | ||
| Bro Johnny |
Im a UPC Pentecostal member since 1992 and i have seen good and bad in my Church! First of all i am very sorry for whats happening to you! this is what makes us look so bad! If this was a True UPC Brother he would not have went outside of the UPC to look for a mate in the First place, We will not be unevenely yoked, our Sisters in Christ already are mind set in our Doctrine! so theirs no Problem in our dating or marriage! but to go outside of the UPC and try and to find a Mate would be wrong becouse they just wouldent understand our Doctrine of Holyness Standards or anything elese about us, it was very very wrong for that so called Brother to even go out of the flock to begain with,im so sorry, i realy am, he is not a True Brother of the UPC if he acts like that and Please Tell Him i Said So and have him email me if you like papa1959@aol.com anytime, and ill talk to him for you, i Truly hate to see this, we don,t bother anyone and are known to stay to ourselfs unless someone has a question and than we will step in, but not force ourselfs on anyone in anyway, God Bless you in the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ Brother Johnny | ||
| Anonymous |
To the first post. I am sorry about your daughter. But I think this has to do more with her finding a nutty man from a nutty family than the fact they call themselves pentecostal. I know some pentecostals and they don't act that way. I just think this young man your daughter is mixed up with has a noodles for brains and so does his family. | ||
| Bro Johnny |
I agree with you 100% and it,s a Shame that a few Bad apples make the whole Bunch look Bad! God Bless you Brother Johnny | ||
| Anonymous |
The problem with UPC is the way the goverment of it is set up. there are not enouch checks and balances in it and too many people in positions of authority go out of control. I am not saying we should run the preacher off because we dont like his tie. I am saying that a pastor is there to serve those people and if he driving them instead of leading them, then he could have the integrity to step down and get his act together. People saved and filled with the Holy Ghost hear from God and it is not necessary to meddle up in their personal lives( like telling them who to marry, what to wear ect...) They have a bible. they can read it and be led by God. We need to let God be God. | ||
| Anonymous |
...Spam regarding Darwin Fish deleted by Administrator... | ||
| Apostolica |
Hello, I'm a brother of the Apostolic Faith and I am praying for you. It is Satan that is trying to take your daughter away. Whatever teachings this boyfriend is trying to put through her head are false. I will ask our Apostolic ministry to pray for you. If you need to talk to someone please call me. My name is Aaron. 760-758-2476. I can give you my pastor's number. God bless. | ||
| Anonymous |
I suggest you speak with your daughter about the church. Have you genuinely asked questions about her new beliefs? This is likely the only way to "break through" and begin a dialogue about this unfortunate situation. I'm sure if you attack her new beliefs she'll be running into the snare of her boyfriend's family very soon. Try speaking with her and avoid using the words "dangerous" and "cult" -- if you respect her as an adult hopefully she'll respect you as her concerned mother. It is strange that this man is dating women from outside his church... | ||
| Anonymous |
Yes I feel that you are on the mark. why cant he find a decent woman inside his church? This family is a bunch of freaks and you need to call Rick Ross pronto! | ||
| aexapo |
For those seeking more information about this dangerous sect of Pentecostalism, please check out our website: http://ex-pentecostals.com | ||
| girly_girl7 |
Pentecostal churches are not dangerous!! LoL You people crack me up...READ YOUR BIBLE....IT IS IN THERE!! | ||
| Mike Dart |
I am a member of a pentecostal church. However, I am not a United Pentecostal. I have met both good and bad UPC people, however, i have met mostly bad ones. I am only typing this to make sure people have an understanding that just because a church is "Pentecostal" doesn't mean that they are all judgemental people who don't believe in the trinity. My church believes in the Trinity..in fact that is our Churches name "Trinity Church" and YES, we do believe is speaking in tongues, and encourage believers to seek this gift, but we do not teach that you MUST speak in tongues to be saved. As far as the dress code..well, we don't have one. We see people coming in, some with long skirts, other women wearing jeans, or pants suits.. and some even wear shorts. That is left entirely up to the individual. The bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. It is GOD'S job to convict the individual of what and what not to wear, and what and what not to do. This si a misconception alot of people think. Just because one lables themselves as "pentecostal" they automatically link them with the United Pentecostal Church, or other strict Holiness Churches. it is important to note that the Assembly of God is a Pentecostal denomination. So is the International pentecostal Holiness Church, whichis what my church belongs to. Anyway, i just wanted to clarify that. I am so sorry for what is happening to this girl. I have sene it happen so many times to girls who get involved with UPC boys. It happened to a cousin of mine. I will say that what Brother Johnny said is true for the most part. Most UPC kids do not date outside their church. Most of them keep to themselves, however there is one group here that is very bad about telling everyone they are going to hell because of the way they dress, and all that. You get that in almost every denomination by a few select quacks. | ||
| Mike Dart |
I wanted to add... When I said that we don't teach that you must speak in tongues in order to be saved.. we base this on the fact that the Pentecostal movement as we know it today did not come about til the early part of the 1900's at Azusa Street in Los Angeles. There people spoke in other tongues. Even though speaking in tongues did exisit off and on all throughout the church years, it wasn't widely known about until within the past 100 to 125 years. If this is a MUST for salvation, then a whole lot of Christians from the year of about 100 AD until 1900 AD were sent to Hell. Does this sound like the Loving and merciful God that we serve? NO. You are saved by grace through Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Tongues is a gift beyond salvation, and my church presents it as such. As an "extra" so to speak. I am still praying for your daughter. Please post an update. | ||
| Denise |
( 7 PAGES ) (YOU MIGHT WANT TO PRINT OUT) Praise the Lord! (MAY GOD BLESS THE READING OF HIS WORD) My heart goes out to you as a mother. I know how it feels to really love your child, have a very close relationship and that changes because of someone. Instead of having that closeness, your really at a distance and looked at as if your their worst enemy. (Nothings changed about you, however it's just that they’ve now changed) When things like this happens we truly have to look to JESUS, he has the answer and he is the answer. Look deep into Gods word, continue to pray, asking him to lead and guide you, on handling situations if they arise. I'd like to share an experience I had. I had a dream one night that my sons closet was empty (cleaned out) my physical heart in the dream felt as if it had fallen (it hurt), I even took a deep breath of a sigh. When I woke up, I knew what the dream meant. Even though at that time, it hadn't manifested itself. (My son was still loving, and everything seemed to be fine). About a month later my son had just turned 18 yr. old, (perhaps just for 1 week). My husband and I had gotten him a car early for graduation / Birthday. I believe he had stayed out longer than what he was told to with a friend that I didn't really care for because I over heard him say to my son how he would say thus and so to me if he was him. (He was saying rebelling and negative things to him). So I told him he was punished and that he couldn't take and drive the car that weekend. So he answered me by saying, I'm taking my car and I'm leaving. I'm talking about a young man that I never, never, never, had one minute’s problem with. (Never talked back to me, whether he agreed or disagreed) Here's graduation was about two and a half months away. He left, to go stay at that same suppose to be friend’s house. (I was hurt) You know my heart felt just like it did in the dream I had. But I thank God for being God! Just to know Jesus! Such a wonderful God, always preparing us .God said he would bring things back to our remembrance. (I thought on my dream) And from that, I knew everything would be all right. (I knew without a shadow of a doubt God knew because he showed me and I had to trust him and knowing that, I knew he would heal my heart=mind) Can you believe my physical heart hurt) (It was as if, I took a hard blow). When he left I said fine, however you’re not taking the car. I believe he had been driving only 1 week. I was really concerned about giving him the car and him getting killed, (him just being out) not having any experience driving and I also thought the nerve of him to say give me my car as if he earned it. So when I turned to go into my house, the Lord spoke to me (the thought, asking me (What did the prodigal son father do, when he left)? I wept, and said Lord he gave him his things. I knew God wanted me to give him "his" car. Then God had put in my mind it was materialistic. (Nothing) It took about one week to except he was gone. (Sadness to be gone, and to stop thinking about him “every” second) God is truly an awesome God because I can remember knelling down in my living room at the sofa and praying in the spirit when God spoke through me saying it is well, it is well. So I opened the word of God and began to read about the Shunamite women in 2 Kings Chap. 4 (God still letting me know, it's ok) I went to the house of pray that night to be with the saints. They had a guess speaker that night and he was on fire for God. The word that night was for me, not saying it wasn't for others however I knew God was again, talking to me. The message was on 2 Kings Chap. 4 (The Shunamite Women) which I had just read at home because God had given me a word when I prayed, what a conformation. Again, all I could do is shake and bow my head weeping giving God the glory. Being so grateful that I know God is not dead, he is alive. It was hard what I went through however, it would have been much worse, had I not had a clue. Nothing comes upon us suddenly, God does warn us however we have to have an ear to hear what the spirit is saying to the church (His people). (We have to look for Jesus, God will speak to us in so many ways) A lot of times people have dreams and they just shake it off, and also sometimes say I had a silly dream, when 99% of the time it's not silly at all if you study the word of God. God be telling us what people are doing, thinking, conversations they've had behind closed doors, what's about to happen, what the devil wants to happen and etc. What a Mighty God we serve. To take the time to talk to us; to care about us. To let us know when we're right and when we're wrong. PG.1 OF 7 Knowing God like I do, I don't know what I would do without Jesus. My son had been gone for three or four months when I had another dream, which I knew God again was talking about him. I dreamt that I had to take my clothes out of his closet. You see when he left, I put a lot of my clothes and shoes in his closet and now this was Gods way of telling me that he was now coming back home. Two or three days after I had that dream. He called me and asked if he could come back home. I knew I was to allow him to, and I mentioned to him the dream that I just had (giving God the glory). I truly thank God for being a Good God, for watching over him and still showing me things to help him while he was gone. I can remember the Lord leading me to go to the house that he was staying at. The parents of his friend was acting strange as if everything was ok however that's not what God was showing me so I insist on seeing him in person. When he came to the door, he was sick as a dog. Sweating, weak, fever and just look bad. I couldn't believe his friend’s father came to the door acting all happy, saying oh he sleep. I said wake him up. After talking to my son I found out that he had been sick like that for a couple of days. I had him get in my car and I immediately took him to the doctors. I don't know what was wrong with him. I believe he had caught something. I found out later that he had sex for the first time. Him leaving was something that I needed to experience and him also. Because I learned to stretch out on faith. Which has helped to make me a stronger Christian today. This has been years ago now but I believe that him being gone experiencing all that he did, good and bad (mostly bad) will one day play a part of him being saved. I've learnt that everyone's different; we're designers originals. Were all going to experience different things in life, however some what the same. Satan plan is to destroy us, however God can and will turn it around to bless us. So I've learnt when you see a sinner or a Christian that has fallen short we aught too truly pray for them. Because you don't know what Gods planning for their lives. It might take all of that and some (talking about sin) to realize that they need Jesus. We can only pray that it won't be to late. A lot of people get saved behind sin. They get tired or they are depressed and being that they have tried everything sinful; they hear the word of God and turn to him. Everyone's timing is different. Our children disappoint us; people disappoint us. But we have to keep in mind all souls belong to God. I've learnt in a sense to put myself in Christ shoes. (Too Think) Example: the way I felt about my son is the way God feels as a father toward us, when we don't do the right things, when there is no reason to do any other. When people don't listen to him he hurts. (WE KNOW THAT GOD IS GOOD ; MERCIFUL AND THERE IS NO ONE THAT LOVES US MORE THAN HE DOES ) Can we truly say that we've always tried to do and have done what's pleasing in his eyesight, knowing he's been so good. Should we not expect our children to treat us bad, or be disrespectful, when at one time in our lives we were that away. (When we lived to ourselves) are we better than God is? I thank God today, for his grace and his mercy. That he saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. That I could one day be saved and used by him. God knows I've done things in my lifetime that I should have been cut off ; or could have been cut off; (FROM THE LAND OF THE LIVING). “BUT GOD'S MERCY”! And just like I know today ; that it was nothing but his “Grace and Mercy” upon me. I have to believe he will have it for my son and everyone else. I gave my heart to Jesus when my son was 7 yrs old. I have peace in my heart because I truly know I lived the life along with my husband. We never said one thing and did another. I'm talking about a true Christian home. (So much love) I'm talking about perhaps disagreeing about 8 times in about eighteen years. (PEACE=GOD) I'm not saying that to act as though I'm anything or better than someone is. But God has been real to me and since I gave him my life Aug. 25, 1985, he has kept me. Not saved one day and backslidden the next. Because I know the life I've lived before my children. And all the love God has given me towards them. (Knowing that I've lived right, I've told them right and they’ve been given just about everything) There comes a time that I do realize today. Again, all souls belong to God. He is the potter; and we are the clay. I've done my part and you've probably have done yours, bringing them up in the way of the Lord. All me or anyone else can do is to continue to live the life, give them the word of God when there's an opportunity, pray and ask God to have mercy on them. We can’t save any one; it’s all in his hands. God could have it so that they just straighten right up if he wants to. We truly have to have faith in God, believing he will have as much, if not more mercy on them as he has had on us. What ever happens good or bad know that God's in control. (LOOK FOR JESUS) PG.2 OF 7 My son has made a lot of bad choices, but I again have to believe and do believe it will all come together for the glory of God. There are things in the natural that you can see spiritual. Example: Some children have stood for the 1st time and just started walking. When most, fall down several times before they really learn how to walk. I've seen things that have been bad turn out for the good. Later realizing, God allowed certain things to happen, that he later got “ALL” the glory. All I can do at times is shake my head. I see Gods mercies on him and he himself has mentioned he know it was the Lord. (Giving him the Glory) I see God moving in his life, in spite of his disobedience, knowing it's just a matter of time. Not my time but his and the Lord. Hoping and praying that one day soon, before it's to late that he will believe the word (OBEY) when it says that the goodness of the Lord should leadeth men to repentance. But if it never happens, God forbid. I'm sure God will comfort and has always comforted my heart (mind). I know he's a good God. I understand that some won't make it in. I just continue to pray and believe that he will be one, along with myself and others that will. However if he doesn't, it's no ones fault but his own. He's been told that God has mercy on whom he will and not to take him for granted, because of who he is and that is (GOD). I thank God for knowing the secret to prayer, and that is that it changes situations. The word said the prayer of the righteous availeth much. We can change Gods mind about what's going to happen to people if we live right (For God) and pray for them. He will have mercy on them. So I will continue to praise his holy name. You know it's sad when you have people in general, who has children or have been some ones child before. Needless to say people who call themselves a Christian (followers of Christ). Think they can just come into loving peoples lives and take over their flesh and blood. They know our children better than we do and care for them better than we have or do or ever will. So they say and think. They're going to take our children in. My son’s friend’s mother never spoke to me about taking my son in , never said well I need to talk with your parents. (Disrespectful and Ungodly People) He was still in high school about to graduate. My son had everything spiritual and materialistic one might think or want as most people children do. It’s another thing if someone is being taken in because of some sort of physical abuse. My son’s reason for wanting to leave was because he couldn't drive over the weekend. Instead of her saying well, that's not a reason to leave because it's not like she doesn’t want you to have a car because it was given to you as a present. She allowed the Devil to use her. (We know that's the enemy wanting the simple minded = the young) God understands that and we today should. He wants to kill them before they get started. But I thank God for his blood, Satan is a Liar and the Father of Lies and the Truth is not in him. Keep in mind God said no weapon that form against us shall prosper. We have to claim them to be saved in Jesus name. When my son came back home he told me that his so called friends mother, that allowed him to move in became so ill during that time that she had to quit her job as a register nurse and how her adopted son that she had since he was about 2 years old. Later gave her a time of her life. I'm not saying this happened because she took my son in because I don't know that. God never said that to me. (It could have been or it didn’t have to be). I just know it happened. Not really getting off the subject , I’d like to share this with you. God has once before told me that a women suffered because of talking about me. When I think back on all of the dreams and the manifestation of God it's just unreal. I'd like to share that dream with you. One night I had a dream that a huge, huge, huge rock, fell out of the sky on my next door neighbor. She was stretched out in the road with the rock on top of her. Her body was stuck in the road with her head, arms and legs stuck out of the road moving, screaming because it was on top of her middle part crushing her. I heard a voice say this happen to her because she's been talking about you to the neighbor on the other side of my house. She told her lets keep our yard really nice to make theirs look bad. (Isn't that silly for someone to think something so stupid and then to suffer for it)? God cares about everything. It wasn't like our yard wasn't clean. If you didn't do anything to your yard the houses speak for themselves. The next day I go out back and I see the lady that I bought my house from working in my neighbors flower beds, when she saw me she ran over to speak because she hadn't got over that I had bought her house. She wanted to just be in the yard, she loved flowers and working in the yard. I say that because for two year after I bought her house, I would come home in she was in my back yard, and would say I just wanted to look at the flowers. Well she began to tell me that both neighbor (On each side of me) asked her to help them out with their yard and they would pay her. I thought on the dream I had the night before never saying anything to her. But later shared it with my husband. PG.3 OF 7 The following summer I was out in my yard and my neighbor and I began to talk about the flowers and things. I then learned from her that the summer before, “around the time when I had that dream” that she said she had been stuck; in her finger by a thorn from a rose while working in the yard. She told me that she had thought that she had gotten it out. But found out later that the very tip was left inside. She got a serious infection throughout her whole body that she almost died and at one time she said the doctors was talking about cutting her arm off and she said she pleaded about her arm. But a doctor from England helped her, because he knew about this rare infection that comes from the torn of that rose. They travel all over the world all of the time, and we were not like close friends, we would speak if we seen each other in the yard and perhaps hold a conversation. I never knew at that time that she spent months in the hospital. God had that dream to come together so I would understand it. We should all watch what we say because God said we will reap what we sow. Cursing people is cursing ourselves. Blessing people is blessing ourselves. People don't realize when we forgive and have mercy on others we are storing up more forgiveness and mercy for God to have towards us when we need it. That's why God said love your enemy's, do good to those who despitefully use you and persecute you because in doing so (Just being a child of God). He will take care of them, he said vengeance is mine saith the Lord I will repay. I'm not saying well just say God bless you but in your mind you’re thinking I wish God would get them. I'm talking about having a sincere love for souls, feeling sorry for them for being so evil, knowing they don't know what they are doing or saying. You understanding what will happen to them if they don't change. Knowing you don't want to go to hell and be destroyed and to have that love for someone who you've never done anything to that hates you without a cause, that does everything and anything in their power to hurt you. (You know its God that's keeping you when you can truly love because God is love). People should be careful because when one has reached that point in their walk with God they can't but see God move. When my son came home to me that young man and his friendship had ended. (Glory to God) My son came home and acted like my son. If I were you, I would set down with my daughter. Let her share with me, what it is that she is being told. See what's true and what's a lie. Go into the word of God and show her the truth if she's been told a lie. Because most likely she is being told some truth mixed with lies. But God said for as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: so shall “my word” be that goeth forth out of my mouth; it “shall not return unto me void”, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing,whereto I sent it. Show her the truth if she's being told wrong, say what God has to say about changing his word and leave it in his hands. Don't get into an argument about the word because the word of God speaks for itself. It means what it says and it says what it means. If anyone is saying something that the word of God isn't saying it will make any man into a liar. (Showing who ever that they don't know what they are talking about) People today take the word out of context however if you know the word you will be able to point this out and if you don't you need to get alone with God and let him teach you. Because it is truly line upon line precept upon precept here a little there a little. (The Old Testament tells of the New Testament) It fits together like a puzzle. If it doesn't fit you will see it in the word. If one doesn't see it, it's not that the word contradicts itself, it's that one needs to pray and ask God for understanding. People today speak evil of things that they know nothing about. Instead of looking for an answer in the word. They need to think what if they're telling me right. Be like the Pharisee named Gamaliel; a doctor of the law in the book of Acts; when he told the council that if it be of God what one says or do ye cannot overthrow it. (One will be fighting against God); of course we know no one will fight God and win. The word of God endures forever. A lot of people know who Jesus is (GOD) and the right way to be baptized (JESUS NAME). Which are the elementary teachings of the word and salvation. That's a mystery that only the Holy Ghost can and will reveal. It's a stumbling block to others. What I find strange is how is it that they understand this mystery and yet say so many things about the word of God that is no more than tradition of men. (Things that has nothing to do with being saved today) One has to live the life and tell the truth about the whole word or will you really have salvation? Everyone needs to read the last book of Revelations with understanding. Adding to Gods word and taking away from Gods word. Saying something the word isn’t saying= nothing to do with the word of God. Telling people things that the word suppose to be saying =changing the meaning. PG.4 OF 7 But a lot of them error in so many other area and then there’s some that realize how man looketh on the outward appearance but God is looking at the heart. That the walk we must walk is by faith and not by sight. Because whatever that is not of faith is (SIN). Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. The word of God tells me Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. = If one wears make-up and jewelry, color their hair, use acne medication to have beautiful skin. Soak in soapy water to clean the flesh and then put powder on it. (The flesh still can't go with God). (SPIRITUAL OR PHYSICAL FLESH)=SIN. Put it this away if you can see it (It's not faith), it's temporal, not going to last, and will come to an end. Again, we walk by faith and not by sight. It's written, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. We're saved by faith (believing Gods word = Obeying) Practicing Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness and revellings. Are the things that are sin and will keep us from entering into the kingdom. The word of God let us know that at one time ; we were all these type of people . But now these sins should not be mentioned among us as becometh saints. Not putting something on your flesh or taking something off. These things comes from within the heart which is peoples minds. (Works of the flesh) (People have to have their minds renewed) (That comes by repenting=forsaking it and turning to Jesus). Jesus said eating with physical dirty hands don't make you unclean. Jesus said Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. There is a lot of Pharisee that still exists today. Putting heavy burdens on Gods people shoulders. Telling Gods people do this, don't that. What is the Holy Ghost for? That is my question today to a lot of people that are trying to be Lord (God) over Gods heritage. I wrote something not long ago. Telling Gods people to stay in the word for themselves. Just like the word of God says, work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling of God. If the Lord will I will post it here. I post it where a young lady said she wasn't sure if she was in a cult. Because she couldn’t cut her hair, couldn’t wear it out because it could attrack a man? Can’t watch TV unless it was approved, the pastor tells someone who to marry and it went on .A lot of people are servants of men and are serving the creature and not the creator. All I can do is shake my head at what I just wrote, truly it's unbelievable the bondage that Satan has people in today. I thank God I'm free and my eyes are open. (In getting knowledge we must get understanding) I thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for his understanding today. Who the Lord has set free he is free indeed. I recognize that I am Christ's servant, yet I am his freeman. God chastises those that he loves. Having the Holy Ghost (God) on the inside he will tell you when your wrong and he will tell you when your right. That's why Christ shed forth that gift on the cross. That he would be in us to lead and guide us to all truth. I can remember when I first got save I had been saved a short while, maybe three months. Sincere about serving God. I had a lot of long maxi skirts. One day I was getting dressed to go to the house of prayer ; I thought to myself oh this is a little tight, then I'd look in the mirror on the door and say no. I went back and forth a few times then aught of a sudden I felt so bad. I realized then that “self and God” had been like reasoning. God won, I admitted to myself that it was to tight. I don't know if I kept thinking well maybe it's not to tight because I was so small and I couldn't imagine myself gaining any weight. So I sort of thought well maybe it's not too tight. I also had so many in different colors but the same style because I liked them so much and probably thought of the waste if I couldn‘t wear them anymore). I took that skirt off and never wore any of them again.. I was so convicted, I felt really bad (I felt like I was wrong).Thank God for the Holy Ghost. That's what the Holy Ghost is for, to tell you when your right and tell you when your wrong. You don't need someone to tell you that your skirts to tight or to high. If you’re truly seeking the Lord the Holy Ghost will convict you. One day I was watching the Stories because here I had just come to the Lord and I’m watching TV then I began to get thoughts like why are you watch this? What is it about? PG.5 OF 7 The thoughts which were all negative began to roll in my mind like a camera; of this one running with that ones husband and this ones having someone else’s baby. And it went on I then got up turned the TV off and never watch the stories since. That happen I believe like the second or third day after repenting, giving my life to the Lord. I hav'nt watch the stories since. That has been eighteen years ago. Praise the Lord! As a babe in Christ I couldn't continue to watch those things because I needed to be feed the word of God. Watching and listen to that still wasn't going to make my walk with God closer. It would keep me in the flesh, however God delivered me. It was something when I think about it because God had all the names of the stories just flash in my mind one after another. Telling me look what it's about the young and the wrestles, search for tomorrow, As the world turn, the guiding light (to what) ha ha God will keep you if you want to be keep and he will lead you. If you allow him to. People are making other people’s mind of evil effect. Just like make-up and jewelry you will not over do it. By putting to much makeup on or jewelry (Caked on)(Rings on every finger) God will let you know it doesn't look right or let‘s you know if it’s too much. God loves beautiful things, look at creation itself. So many colors and variety of everything. Just think on some of the fish and animals. In the word of God he said how he decked Israel with ornaments, and put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on they neck and I PUT A JEWEL ON THY FOREHEAD AND EARRINGS IN THY EARS, AND A BEAUTIFUL CROWN UPON THY HEAD. thus WAST THOU DECKED WITH GOLD AND SILVER; AND THY RAIMENT WAS OF FINE LINEN, AND SILK, AND BROIDERED WORK; THOU DIDST EAT FINE FLOUR, AND HONEY, AND OIL; AND THOU WAST EXCEEDING BEAUTIFUL, AND THOU DIDST PROSPER INTO A KINGDOM. God said they were BEAUTIFUL. When Moses lead Gods people out of Egypt, God had the Egyptian give their gold and silver to his people. Yes they did the wrong thing with it, by making an idol (a god) because they were tired of waiting for Moses. But it wasn't that God didn't give it to them to enjoy or have beautiful things or to look beautiful for him. Surely God didn't give them anything evil. The sin came in when they made the calf (idol god). Just like today not everyone can handle material riches. It can make some high minded, some proud , boastful and etc. Perhaps for that reason some don't have material things like they desire. Some women can't wear make up or jewelry because they get high minded and wind up getting in the flesh and forget about God. Some women it makes them look better and feel great about themselves. There is nothing wrong with being a child of the king of kings and wanting to look your best inside and out. It's glory for God. When people was in the world they went all out to look their best. Their focus was the outside. We as Christians know that's nothing if it's not on the inside to. Knowing God today, having his beauty on the inside is most important (people who know God knows that). It's even more beautiful when you and others can see the inner beauty that God has placed inside and also to look radiant on the outside showing people that God is alive. (He looks alive to) We as children of the MOST HIGH don't have no sad story's to tell. And yes we can be beautiful on the inside and out and be a Christian. You can have joy, happiness and excitement about being saved and look like you have something to be happy about by keeping your physical appearance up to . The word says love your neighbor as yourself. A lot of women don't like the way they look. So if they don't like or love themselves. (WE NEED TO FEEL GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES INSIDE AND OUT) How are they going to truly care or love someone else? I don't want to leave men out. They two need to perhaps loose some weight, get new glass, clothes , get their teeth fixed and etc. Those that are stuck on telling others that holiness is no makeup, jewelry , long sleeves and long hair and etc most of them don't like themselves, and began to envy others, talk about other as if they are evil and not saved, being jealous, having strife and being a hypocrite (The works of the flesh manifesting itself. I’m not talking about something that I don’t know. I met many people like that and one day perhaps I can share my testimony how God delivered me. (How others that claimed to be saved was corrupting my mind when I first came to the Lord . ( I was a babe) But God showed me that I had to do something about it or I would spiritually die. People don't realize how they have allowed others (Satan) to corrupt their minds. People have and will make their mind of evil effect against their brother. (Not spiritual minded) The word of God says to be cardinal minded is death because it's sin. (They can't be any use to God). Not wearing silver or gold or make-up. Doesn't make you not right with God unless you’re using it in a sinful way. The word says Holy women adorned themselves being under subjection to their husbands. Yes we must all have the inner man adorned; however if he's adorned with God inside, there is nothing wrong with being adorned on the outside. PG.6 OF 7 It's sad when some are fixed up on the outside, they look nice and they seem to have it together but inside they're all messed up (empty). There is a lot of people who don’t have anything on the out side or inside (empty ). God said you will know them by their fruit. (by what people say and do is how we know who they really are ) whether they are about God or not. If some ones not speaking the true word of God then according to the word of God that is corrupt fruit. (Satan) We have to keep in mind that Christ is not divided. (He’s not against himself) It’s impossible to say your of God and speak against the word of God. God said woe is he who have ought against his brother without a cause. It's in a lot of their hearts to wear things, however fitting in where ever they go is more important. (One day they will give an account to God if they don‘t change) Some women don’t like make- up or jewelry, don’t like to fix their hair, different clothes and etc. But that’s them, if that’s what they like; so be it. They are not sinning if they don't wear it. However, it's wrong for people that desire to be themselves to say because this is what we teach. If you wear a pin or earrings your not saved and you’re going to hell. When the word of God doesn't say that. I can give even more scriptures than I wrote showing that's not what God is saying. The bible speaks of many spirits, a lot of people are being seduced by other spirits. After a while of being disobedient they don’t know the difference. The word says those comparing themselves by themselves are not wise. We know as believers that there is only one right spirit to have and that is the Holy Spirit, we can say the Holy Ghost; or the Spirit of Christ which all are that one right spirit that we all should have. Just about everything is a spirit. It's a spirit that has people believing a lie that it's wrong or sinful for a women to wear pants and etc. We need to really pray and ask God to have our forehead strong as flint when it comes to his word. So that he can use us to speak his word so that it will pull down everything that exalts itself above the name of Christ. I've said many things and all that I've said is all in the word. I can give verses if need be. I pray that something that has been said will be a blessing to you or anyone. I will mention you and your daughter in my prays. You said that you were Baptist ? I‘d like to know the doctrine that is being taught where you fellowship. I have found out from talking to people that even though they call themselves certain things like, Methodist, Baptist , Pentecostal and etc. That they don‘t all say the same thing. I’m curious to know what is it that you and your daughter now both disagree about. If you don’t mind sharing I’d love to here from you. I realize it’s been almost one year since you wrote. So I’ll keep my fingers crossed. Please excuse my spelling; all my missing commas; periods and so on. My punctuation is not good. I’m just writing. PRAISE THE LORD! PG.7 OF 7 MAY THE LORD JESUS CHRIST BLESS ALL THOSE THAT READ THIS LETTER ! Denise | ||
| Anonymous |
May God bless you too Denise! | ||
| adam shaw and dennis brown |
Once again folks you have missed the point. Just because there are certain people in a particular organization who commit imoral and un-Godly acts, does that mean that the entire organization is at fault? Just because Bill Clinton was a part of American society, does that mean that all of American society is accountable for his actions?? Is your denomination perfect? Have you ever heard of a minister or a church member doing something un-Christian like? I think the important point to make, is do not judge the denomination but seek God for yourself within the context of the Bible. As a member of the United Pentecostal Church I do not have my blinders on. It is certaintly not a perfect organisation. Comparitavely, I have never heard of an organisation, religious or not, that has not gone through its own set of tribulations. Personally, I subscribe to the doctrine we hold because it is literalist. What attracted me was the fact they look at the whole Bible and don't pick and choose. That being said, one thing we must look at, is that the UPC believes wholeheartedly in the autonomy of the local congregation. The congregation elects its own ministers, writes its own constitution, and, for any reason has the right to dismiss elected officials (i.e. the Pastor). In other words the local church is self-governing. The local church's connection to the UPC is based upon the subscribing to a certain belief system and also through the pastor's submission to a governing presbytry. Therefore, realising the self-governing nature of the local church, it is a given that in the UPC there will be a minority who abuse their position as a minister. Just like in elementary school, out of all the wonderful teachers I had, there was the one who was mean and unfair. And to be honest, if we were perfect we would have been Jesus. So back to your original question. Why are we a cult? Was Christianity not a cult at first? Is Christianity still a cult in some parts of the world? I would love to invite you to dissect all of the doctrine of the church. If you can find one principle in there, that does not come from the word of God (IN THE BIBLE), I would absolutely love to hear about it. I too, thought that Pentecostals were a cult. The thing that we have to rid from our minds, is this idea of denomination. What are you looking for? Are you looking for a personal relationshiop with Jesus? Or are you looking to hold on to a denominational belief system? I feel not obligated nor compelled to stay with a United Pentecostal church. I am here to have personal relationship with Christ. If you can show me another denomionation that hungers for the truth as these folks do, please come forward and share your doctrine. To those who have been hurt, I implore you do not lose your faith in the One who saved you. Don't let the actions of a church or a person affect your relationship with Jesus. If you never again step foot into a United Pentecostal Church, make sure you still keep your relationship with Christ. I love you and am praying for you, adam shaw and Dennis Brown | ||
| Anonymous |
Are these Adam Shaw or Dennis Brown's thoughts? I'm puzzled by the closing of the above letter. How do you both feel about homosexuality? | ||
| bobhickman |
I'm apostolic pentecostal!! http://www.ministryofdreams.freeservers.com | ||
| Anonymous |
Adam Shaw and Dennis Brown, are you a new comedy team? | ||
| woodrowsteadman |
i too have had experiances with the oneness pentalcostal sect. on minister in particular calls other people scum bags false christians and other names that border on.. cussing... not cursesing. the same minister told me the BLOOD did not save that it was obediance that did it ( i still have copies of what this minister said )i dont feel that him being a preacher (or supposed to be ) that he should call people names like that for he literaly hates people who dont agree with him he has a small church, composed of himself, wife and children. it looks like from the pictures i have seen of it that it is in his house for it is a very small place about as large as a good sized living room of a house. and he has maybe two more that he has baptised, if they are still coming. it is sad that he belittles his self with the name calling and the law suits he trys to get started woodrow steadman | ||
| aexapo |
The above link to ex-pentecostals.com is no longer functional -- we have moved to http://ex-pentecostals.org ! For more information about leaving Pentecostalism and any of it's "spin-offs," please check out our site! | ||
| Anonymous |
Hi there, I'm hoping someone can help me with an issue. My friend just recently converted from the baptist religion to apostolic pentecostal. I'm a methodist bride-to-be, and she is my maid of honor. I have always supported her in finding her way closer to God, so whatever she chooses to believe doesn't bother me. However, she just recently posed a question to me. She asked if it was OK with me that she not wear jewelry or makeup to my wedding because it's what her church preaches against. I'm a little baffled because it never was an issue before. I told her I would prefer that she wear the necklace and earring set that I bought her and all of my bridesmaids to wear for a uniform look, and that i would like her to wear a very light amount of makeup (cream to powder foundation, a light shimmery eyeshadow, and a pale lipgloss) for the pictures. I told her, as a comromise, she can take the jewelry and make-up off after the pictures, out of respect for her, and even donate the jewelry to a charity. I'm wondering if this is unacceptable for me to ask of her, since I haven't been raised in a church where the matter of wearing makeup and jewelry is an issue of faith in the Lord. By the way, I do understand that it's an issue of vanity. I hate to be vain, but it is only for a few hours. I'm asking this for my friend, because I don't want her to be scrutinized by her new congregation. Please help! | ||
| rev.EARL A. PARIZO (65.69.33.130) |
God bless all of you.You are all in my prayer's. My wife converted to a apostolic church ten years ago.I have been through pure hell.Here are some of the things to look out for.Apostolic penticostal,holyness, oneness,holy roller.They are all cults.GOD be with you all. REV.EARL A Parizo | ||
| rev.EARL A. PARIZO (65.69.33.130) |
If anyone has any question's about apostolic cult's they can email me at earl_parizo@yahoo.com I will answer your question's from my experiance | ||
| Jim (63.184.0.199) |
Well i would just like to say to the woman whos daughter is getting married to a young pentecostal man. Im pentecostal and its her conviction if she changes her appearance. Now she changed who she hangs out with thats fine its her choice. She still needs to keep in touch with them. It does say in the Bible to go and teach so if she is influenced to stay to herself and that guy then its wrong.Now rebelious to her family i cant tell you much on it is a begining to finding out something new on your faith. If she is completly being disobedient im sorry youll have to show her a few scriptures. It does say in the Bible that those that are disobedient to there parants and curse them are worthy of death. Now im not saying she is going to die but thats what it says. this is just some scripture for you to find and show to her. Now that young man if he is having her quite a whole bunch of things because he feels demons than he is either a very weak christian or is a little off the path.Now if he says she must be trustworthy by making any change he wants than its wrong. She must make any change god wants not him. Now i tell you what if this young (ill stop saying guy- he is a boy) boy is making subtle threats that the families (of other girls) interferred and suffered consequences it sounds like this boy has tried to rule other womens lives but im not sure i dont know him. With the whole thing of this boys family wanting your family to not be an ifluence in her life then they are a little wacky. In my understanding i have been shown to share what is right and what the bible teaches. Not to forsake others from it. To me they dont seem very right with God but im only a man what do i know. Only god knows. I tell you all that my parants are not saved but im not disobedient to them.I try to show them as much of my life as possible i have nothing to hide from them. I have tried many denominations in my life and many beleifs. So many different ideas of truth its hard to beleive. But i beleive if found the truth now. So i say show her scripture. let the Bible define what is right in what she and that boy are doing. And dont just take one peice of scripture out of text. Scripture defines scripture show her i beleive it will help her. Also dont forget to pray on it . Prayer and fasting always allows god to present and answer to you. If you have anything to say to Me I invite you to do so. The same for anyone else that has anything to say. May God bless you Rekuline@earthlink.net | ||
| azoneness (67.3.234.189) |
quote-- It does say in the Bible that those that are disobedient to there parants and curse them are worthy of death. Uhmm please tell me where the bible says this. Hey rev.EARL A. PARIZO I would like to talk to you, email me at azoneness@yahoo.com, I am not oneness by the way. Anonymous Your friend is being taught that wearing makeup and so on is a sin, that may cost her heaven. She will likely just not go to your wedding before wearing makeup. The so called apostolic faith is very legalistic and the longer she is in the so called apostolic church the less you will see of her. And if you do not convert sooner or later, her pastor will (in a sly way) tell her not to have anything to do with you at all. If you are a christian all you can do is pray for her that she gets out fast. | ||
| dennis smith (209.30.195.46) |
RE: A Sinning Brother How can a Pentecostal church member justify selling alcohol and then come to church? He can’t. Al Biernat (owner of a restaurant at 4217 oak lawn in Dallas, 214-219-2201) member of Dallas First Church does just that. He says that if people indulge in alcohol then it’s their fault if they die. Al Bundy the serial killer said that pornography fueled his appetite for killing. Do the sellers of pornography have no responsibility in this? How can I explain to my children that this is acceptable in the sight of God? I can’t and I couldn’t. Now they think it’s OK to drink. We tried to talk to Pastor Foster (214-339-5209, 972-296-3273) but he would not hear. We approached him as the Bible says to do so--both of the men. They would not hear. Please help. Please call and voice your opinion. Al Beirnat contributed a lot of money to the new sanctuary and that’s the root of the problem. This is blood money and comes from taking the food out of the mouths of the children of alcoholics. Please, please help us before there is a church split. Concerned . Dennis Please call these two men and share the Word of God. Please email me and express your opinions and give support. God bless you. | ||
| woodrow steadman (68.119.47.6) |
the onesess churches teach a doctrine that is forgien to the BIBLE and to THE WORD OF GOD they tell you you are not saved unless you are baptized in the NAME OF JESUS but yet few of them will admit that the water saves they beat around the bush and say only GOD can judge. well i am saved, sanctified and have THE BAPTISIM of THE HOLY GHOST and i have not.. not been baptized in THE NAME OF JESUS but in the NAME OF THE FATHER< THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST amen | ||
| steadman (68.119.47.6) |
i have a 20 year old friend who lives with his mother and father. he has recently become involved with a oneness church he is constantly telling them they are not right since they have been baptised the .. according to him... wrong way. he is abusive to them. first of all if he was mine i would slap him nto the muddle of next week.. no next year..he would not stay in my home and abuse me or talk to me or my wife that way. the upc church is a cult | ||
| Anonymous (68.119.47.6) |
i have a grandson who is ninteen who lives at my house he has gooten this girl friend who goes to school where he does and they both graduate this year he is so tid up in her family he has gone over to her church..not a holiness church.. they call the mother of the girl does every morning at seven oclock they seem to control every aspect of his life i feel that even though the chruch they attend is not a cult the family is cultic in beheaver | ||
| Rachel (65.29.124.161) |
Hi, my name is Rachel and I attend a UPC church and I have never ever been told that I was going to hell if I don't wear a dress or cut my hair, or even if I don't speak in tongues. What is important is you relationship with Christ. If you have a better relationship with your neighbor where does that put you. I think this boy your daughter is seeing has major issues it seems that his family is diecting him in the wrong direction. It seems like they are pursuading her disobey you. Hope and Prayers, Rachel By the way I did not grow up in the Church and I at 21 Have made several mistakes at 18 a whole lot, hopefully your daughter will come into the truth and look at it as a learning experience. | ||
| Emery Taylor (130.156.22.95) |
I am sorry for all of you who have been hurt by God's people. Why are you guys making a distinction between Apostolic, UPC, PAW, Baptist, and so on. The Word of God says that there is only "one" faith. Which means that there is only one church. Jesus said that whoever believes in Him has everlasting life. Christ told Peter that He would build His church on the foundation of the belief that He is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God. Matt. 16:15-18. Paul tells us in Ephesians that we are all a part of God's house and Christ is the cornerstone. "We who believe are carefully joined togeter, becoming a holy temple for the Lord" (new living translation)2:19-22. We are all God's people. If you believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah you are a part of God's family whether you are pentecosal or not, whether you speak in tongues or not. If anybody has any questions or if you would like to talk about the Word of God, You can reach me at etay1207@aol.com and etay1207@yahoo.com | ||
| steadman (68.119.47.6) |
to emory taylor i see you use the new living trans. i use only the king james verson. i know every one who is saved by.. by THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST is my brother and sister in THE LORD | ||
| bobby (12.166.1.21) |
end time prophecies, end times prophecies, prophetic ministries, prophetic revelations http://www.ministryofdreams.freeservers.com | ||
| Anonymous (68.119.47.6) |
to a upc member please explain to me how there were three ( at the baptisum of Jesus ) JESUS IN THE WATER.... THE FATHER SPEAKING FROM ABOVE... THE HOLY GHOST COMING DOWN AS A DOVE.... ONE ...JESUS... TWO THE FATHER... THREE THE HOLY GHOST. AND DONT COME UP WITH SOME OTHER SCRIPTURE VERSE EITHER. | ||
| Anonymous (68.103.140.88) |
Hi. I am confused. I've read 2 kinds of Pentecostals here. United Pentecostals do not believe in or baptise in The Trinity. They believe that Jesus was God in the Flesh. What are the *other* or *Trinitarian* Pentecostals called? Apostolic Pentecostal or another name? Thanks! | ||
| Anonymous (69.41.129.6) |
We were in the UPC and UPCI for 16 years, until we ran our own ministry in Ogden, UT. We are no longer UPC, we left her (upc) harlot church, not God! The UPC does teach another gospel, the gospel of man not the gospel of grace as taught by Jesus Himself. Nor do they love as God commamded us to love, their love is shallow like their teaching of men and man made false by-laws of an outward dress sign! No one can stand long when their whole foundation is built upon sand. http://p212.ezboard.com/bexpentecostalforums | ||
| Anonymous (69.41.129.32) |
Articles From http://www.spiritualabuse.org/issues/standards.html, Home Page http://spiritualabuse.org Anyone can say that God has revealed something to them. In fact, that is precisely what the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. have done. They claim that God has revealed things to them that go above and beyond what the scriptures actually say. Scriptures alone are the sole authority on the truth. Not your pastor, not the UPC, only the Book. Only the Apostles had the authority to pronounce doctrine. What the UPC has done is exactly what the Pharisees and all the legalists of Jesus' day did. They have created laws to live by that are not laws of God, but of man. This is why Jesus said that they do worship God uselessly for they obey the commands of men, not of God. He said they lay heavy burdens of oppression on the people and hinder them from serving God. As soon as someone starts saying that God has told him or her something that is not backed up by the Bible, they are lying, whether intentionally or not. Your pastor is free to believe whatever he wishes, but when he starts requiring church members to follow an invented doctrine, or worse, telling them that they will go to hell if they don't, then he is out of line and will be held accountable for it by God. Pray and go to the scriptures to find out what to believe, instead of going to the scriptures to prove what you have already decided to believe. THE HAIR ISSUE I. THE HAIR ISSUE II THE PANTS ISSUE! SKIRTS STANDARDS FOR MEN MAKE UP JEWELLERY THE HAIR ISSUE. | ||
| Donna Simpson (205.188.117.20) |
I just wanted to say that if anyone doesnt understand why us Apostolics do unusual things you should come to our services when the Holy Ghost is being poored out.If God really gets a hold of you and you feel that joy unspeakable you wont care what you have to do to get closer to God.The bible does talk about hair in corinthians.Also look at the Jewish nation.They are now wareing dresses all the time because they are going back to there roots.The bible saids that uncut hair brings power!Angels recognize uncut hair.I dont know about you but I need all of the angels I can get.I love the Lord and I want to be with him and if I can do anything to get closer to God I will do it.If the bible said to wear arainbow wig every day I would.I love him so I want to obay what he saids in the scriptures.Feel free to email me and talk about any of these things.I understand how it looks odd but let me here from you who think Holiness standards are a bad thing .Maybe I can explain further so you can understand why we do what we do!!!In Jesus name Acts238Donna@aol.com | ||
| ALFRED (68.119.37.147) |
AND IF YOU WILLNOTICE ALL THE NAZERITES WERE MOSTLY MEN IF FACT I DONT KNOW OF A WOMAN AT ALL THEY WERE TO WEAR THEIR HAIR LONG AS A SIGNOF SEPERATION MEN ARE NOT TO HAVE LONG HAIR FOR WE ARE NOT UNDER THE NAZEITE LAW WHICH WAS GIVE TO THE JEWS | ||
| robert (134.68.175.169) |
http://www.geocities.com/ministryofdreams/ the coming of Jesus is closing in | ||
| Anonymous (69.41.129.135) |
Donna Simpson, this is where you people have missed the mark! You teach these things as salvation, you teach another doctrine! You do not teach grace, as Jesus taught, you teach the teachings of Jews and Pharisee! This by far is the devil best. You people seek after a sign, an outward one! Why is that? BECAUSE YOU DO NOT TRUST IN GOD TO DO THE INNER HEART WORK! YOU PEOPLE SEEK AFTER A SIGN! A DRESS ONE AT THAT! YOU ARE A LIE STRAIGHT OUT HELL! YOU DO NOT FOLLOW AFTER GOD! YOU FOLLOW AFTER MAN, YOU ARE LOST AND BLIND | ||
| Anonymous (69.41.129.55) |
Donna Simpson,The bible saids that uncut hair brings power!Angels recognize uncut hair.I dont know about you but I need all of the angels.... Lastly Donna, ARE POWER COMES FROM GOD, BY HIM ALONE NOT ARE HAIR! YOU ARE PRACTICING WITCHCRAFT! How can intelligent people believe in such lies? Easy pound on drums work the people into a wild state of mind! Sadly you people have a hard time living or walking with God, without your HG, fix! Without this fix you fall away, why is that? YOU DO NOT HAVE GRACE! GOD DOES NOT KNOW YOU! YOU ARE FOLLOWING AFTER MAN! You are a part of the harlot church, not God! The UPC, Apostolic and Oneness and many other names of her spawn’s does teach another gospel, the gospel of man not the gospel of grace as taught by Jesus Himself. Nor do they love as God commanded us to love, their love is shallow like their teaching of men and man made false by-laws of an outward dress sign! No one can stand long when their whole foundation is built upon sand. Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Jesus Christ will profess unto them, that He never knew them! Go away from me, you that have labored and toiled at avoiding the law of faith. (Rom. 3:27, Hos. 11:6).You that have ignored His instructions, and went about to establish their own righteousness. The thing one must seriously ask one self, is what did they do to get themselves into this kind of a position? What kind of person would get this kind of response from the Lord? See Jesus never denied their claims above, the fact that Jesus does not denied them tell us they spoke the truth on these matter. Yet something was wrong, something was missing, and the Lord declares unto them: "I never knew you! Depart from me, you that work iniquity!â These are believer in Jesus they are not backsliders or the lost these are people who claimed to have the truth. But yet they were found lacking! What was lacking was Agape, they did not love as He loved them. Without love we are none of His, without love we shall not see God. Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (KJV) Matthew 7:21 The sense of this verse seems to be this; No person, by merely acknowledging my authority, believing in the Divinity of my nature, professing faith in the perfection of my righteousness, and infinite merit of my atonement, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven-- shall have any part with God in glory; but he who doeth the will of my Father ( Agape) he who gets the bad tree rooted up, the good tree planted, and continues to bring forth fruit (Agape) to the glory and praise of God. The whole bible about perfect love, Agape. We are told to love we are commanded by Jesus to love. Two Great Commandments Deuteronomy 6:4,5 Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord. Mark 12:30,31 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." From the Word people learn that all doctrine is based on these two commandments, that the Lord is to be loved above everything else, and the neighbor as themselves. When these two commandments are the end in view the Word is in that case opened up, for all the Law and all the Prophets, that is, the whole of the Word, hangs on them, as does everything from them, and so everything has reference to them. And being in that case governed by the primary teachings concerning truth and good people receive light in each particular thing they see in the Word. For the Lord is present with them at that time by means of angels and is teaching them even though they are not directly aware of it, and is also guiding them into the life of truth and good. I do not believe we are to remain in the same place where we began with God, we are to grow in our walk and knowledge of Him and His word, but most of all His love. My sheep die due to lack of knowledge. Peter, will you tend my sheep? Or better yet, Peter do you agape my sheep? He said to him the third time, "Simon, {son} of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep. "Peter was grieved because Jesus said unto him the third time. . . ." He was awakening to the fact that the truth of his heart, Peter did not Agape Jesus, and he began to see what the patient questioning meant. Peter do you Agape me? There was not the slightest strand of delusion left in Peter's mind, he never could be deluded again. There was no room for passionate utterance, no room for exhilaration or sentiment. It was a revelation to him to realize how much he did not Agape the Lord, and with amazement he said - "Lord, Thou knowest all things." Peter began to see he did love as Jesus loved us. But he did not say - "Look at this or that to confirm it." Peter was beginning to discover to himself how much he did not love the Lord, that there was no one in heaven above or upon earth beneath beside Jesus Christ; but he did not know it until the probing, hurting questions of the Lord came. The Lord's questions always reveal our heart and itâ ™s true condition. The patient directness and skill of Jesus Christ with Peter! Our Lord never asks questions until the right time. Rarely, but probably once, He will get us into a corner where He will hurt us with His undeviating questions, and we will realize that we do not love Him, or otherâ ™s as He Agape us. See love is the hardest thing to do, dressing the outward man is easy and God knows this, that why God hated it so. God wants a heart change, and yes it will show on the outward man but itâ ™s a far cry from a wardrobe change. http://p212.ezboard.com/bexpentecostalforums | ||
| Anonymous (69.41.129.135) |
Donna Simpon Sounds like you been dabbling in the R&R teachings...Or as we call her “Ruthless Writer Teaching!”...Yes R&R teaches this false message to women, power in your hair! Power to keep your man under control, keep him from sin like adult, now were does the bible say this? “No it does not,” Donna! Lets face it, your teaching blames women for all man’s downfalls, it’s the woman fault if she causes a brother to sin or look upon her in lust. Sorry, but men need to stop blaming women and learn to control their own sinful nature! If what Ruth says is true, then she must have cut her hair, after all her husband became an adulteress and now she divorced! But I’m positive it was not cut hair that caused him to stray, more like a woman with a cold heart. | ||
| Anonymous (69.41.129.210) |
"oneness" Church a Cult & Threat to Christianity! http://www.celticpandc.com/warning-united.pentacostal.html This church is also plagued with various legalistic doctrines to which members MUST adhere. This is done in order for the members of the Church to Judge them as Christian in GOOD STANDING and be even considered a Christian. One of these I find totally out of place in the Church today and the note that women are "a lesser vessel."Many of these standards have also been developed only since the early 1900's .i.e. You are not a Christian if you do not Speak in Tongues, Women must wear their hair Long and no Jewellery and makeup. They teach that unless you're baptized using the correct formula....theirs!....you're not really saved. One must ask the pastor for almost anything and any decision in life. (many of these things verge on the thinking of a Cult-I dare say that the Bible and Jesus never made specific clothing and the way you wear your hair a demand. This conforming to what everyone else is doing in the church is DANGEROUS.)I must ask that the person think that only our God has a right to Judge us as Christian or not! To be a Christian must one check their brain at the door of the church? The UPCI thinks so! (they are false teachers and prey on the human nature of man!.)...How? Answer: The apostle Peter wrote describing Paul's epistles, "...in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).I believe that there are many individual powerful practices which characterize the methods of deception employed by false teachers. The twisting of Scripture is universal among them. Few, if any, people go into a cult or aberrant religious movement by reading the Bible alone! They must have some help from false teachers. These false teachers must come to terms with the authority of Scripture. They deal deceptively with this issue in several ways. (the UPCI fails to see that Jesus himself says that all of his authority comes from the Father and that he is dependent on the Father) For instance, one approach is to give respect to the Bible but teach that it cannot be fully trusted. (this the UPCI does in taking on the King James Version of the Bible which is a Transliteration of the Bible not a direct translation. They brush off versions like the RSV which is a translation as it was written according to them by "liberals." So far I have not seen the reason they are liberals! They feel that the K.J. VERSION is the only one that supports their position on the church and all outside extra-Biblical study and Creeds are just that of men and are not to be studied. They miss quote scholars etc.) ,They teach for example that books must have been lost or that texts were altered.(the UPCI feels that the resurrection story as told by the Gospel and the great commission to go out and Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost was added scripture) Bible verse is sprinkled liberally in the books to make it appear that the student is studying the Bible. The result is that the Bible is really only being used as a reference book. One can make the Bible prove anything used in this manner. This approach is typical of the Society of Jehovah's Witnesses.The Bible warns about these tactics as Paul compares his true ministry to the false apostles', "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully..." (2 Corinthians 4:2). Describing the methods and motives of the false prophets and teachers, Peter says that,"many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you..." (2 Peter 2:2-3). How does this happen? I believe the average church member is conditioned for it. Rather than follow God's direction and "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15), the average Christian's approach is to expect others to teach them. This leaves the door open to a false leader to by use of orthodox wrapping have a gift of the word inside that is no longer holding to scripture, but that of the opinion of the leader or others. Sometimes this comes from reading the Bible in a literal sense in modern thought rather than consulting what it meant in 1st Century thought. Additionally, there has been of a lack of emphasis on teaching sound, foundational doctrine in the church. Again, God warns His church concerning this (Ephesians 4:11-15; Colossians 2:6-7). Christians must learn to feed themselves as well as give attention to the sound, established, systematic doctrine that has stood the test of time and solid scholarship. (The Orthodox church has withstood the test of time! (The UPCI contend that they are the only ones that are going to heaven-Do you not see something wrong here?) The UPCI counts on the fact that most Christians are not familiar with Greek and Hebrew nor the way to study the Scriptures with objective study helps They do not feel that they should directly look at the words in terms of the period they were spoken but it is right to translate them for today directly.(they even come to the aide of this by officially prohibiting their followers from reading books by scholars that have studied the Bible.) Many do not even read a whole book in the Bible through for its intended context. Therefore, when a false teacher comes with a plausible argument and presents what appears to be a scholarly approach, the novice is impressed. (This to me is a form of Brainwashing in that they have captured the disciple with somewhat orthodox teaching and then the disciple does not any longer question what is stated.) They also use this to say that you will not be happy or have salvation if you leave this church. They will shun you at the store or on the street. It is a way of playing with your mind. They make you feel that they are the only way that the sins they concentrate on are able to be forgiven is if you remain in the cult. They thus twist Scripture through pseudo-scholarship, by deleting and inserting words, by focusing on texts out-of context, and by employing collapsing contexts (unrelated verses put together to say something different).I encourage the Christian to become a student of God's word. The truth of God's Word working with the illuminating and empowering Holy Spirit transforms the Christian into how he is intended to experience life, being conformed to His image.Jesus prayed "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17). | ||
| HOLYGHOST FILLED (69.163.116.200) |
Man.. It seems like a lot of people who write on this board are ANGRY. It sounds more like a debate club. The word of God is available for all. I was caught up in this debate until I sought the Lord with a pure heart... I said the sinner's prayer before, but I wondered why the bible spoke of baptism and being filled with the Holy Ghost in the book of Acts. I sought the Lord for to be SAVED, not to argue, and He filled me with the HOLYGHOST, and Yes I heard myself speak with tongues. BE CAREFUL NOT TO EXPLAIN AWAY THE WORD OF GOD. HE REWARDS THOSE WHO DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM. HIS REVEALED TRUTH IS NOT GIVEN FOR AGRUMENTS! | ||
| Anonymous (24.70.178.211) |
I am afraid time is running short for any opportunity to get my daughter back home where she belongs please help if you know of anyone that has any affiliation with the PENTACOSTAL church in the okanagan anyone that can help me. Be well | ||
| Anonymous (216.178.54.124) |
PENTACOSTAL ARE EVIL WICKED PEOPLE! | ||
| Anonymous (216.178.54.124) |
So true, they are evil~ | ||
| wbhatter (wbhatter) New member Username: wbhatter Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.146.144.141 |
Do any of these so called bible reading pentacostals know how to read? Speaking in tounges was not a sign to the believer, but a sign to the unbelieving jews. It was a actual language not some jibber jabber that is chanted by a bunch of people so called praising our Lord that no one can understand. The day of Pentacost was a day that crowds of people which spoke different launguages were all spoke to by one man and heard in there own language. If you read 1Corintians chapter 13, it gives specific criteria for speaking in tounges. One person to speak and one to pray that he can interpret for the others. Its a shame that intellegent people can pick and choose what verse you want to apply when it comes to tounges. As to a womans dress, it is to be modest and neat in appearal. No where in the bible does it say that a woman must not wear makeup or cut their hair. I have a question for all the so called charismatics out there? Have you ever thought about the fact that the Lord does not want you standing up in front of a large group of people EDIFYING yourself? He wants you to EDIFY him!!!! Oh I better explain EDIFY it means to draw attention to ones self. Think long and hard about that one and take a good look at 1 Corintians chapter 13. Also how is it that woman have power to preach in your churches? When I read the bible it clearly states that the criteria for a preacher/bishop is to be the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE??????? HHHHMMMMM that eliminates all woman and divorced men. Sounds like the people running your church might want to buy a concordance to help in understanding GODS word.} | ||
| hillbilly (hillbilly) Member Username: hillbilly Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 64.12.117.12 |
wbhatter, I'm not charismatic but I disagree with you on your last paragraph. I agree that it eliminates women as preacher/bishops but I do not believe that it eliminates men who have legitimate biblically reasons for divorce or who came to know Christ after they were divorced. I think the statement was a statement against polygamy. God Bless, | ||
| wbhatter (wbhatter) New member Username: wbhatter Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.146.144.141 |
Hillbilly, Hello again and may God Bless you and yours. I dissagree with the bible meaning polygamy. That statment all by its self must be taken out of context. For one reason we know as christians that polygamy is a sin, so why would God put a stipulation for the preachers if it was sinful anyway. | ||
| hillbilly (hillbilly) Intermediate Member Username: hillbilly Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 152.163.101.12 |
Possibly because those at the time did not see it as a sin because it was more common then? God Bless, | ||
| 69thstreet (69thstreet) New member Username: 69thstreet Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
I have nothing against pentacostals but I would never be a member of one again. I dont agree with how they think there right and everyone else is wrong and the way they treat their women, and there judgemental extremist. | ||
| pentecostal_angel (pentecostal_angel) New member Username: pentecostal_angel Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.127.26.215 |
hello, I am involved in a pentecostal church right now. I love my church. We do not teach about abuse, but we do teach about discipline though. Of course not like beating. We are definitely not the way alot of you have been describing us though. But, I will admit some pentecostal churches I've heard about have gone a little(a lot)overboard. That's what gives us a bad name. My church, believes that you must repent, be baptized in Jesus' name, and speak in tongues to enter into the kingdom of heaven. It's really about the change that takes place in your heart when you truly speak in tongues. I used to hate the church - all of their rules, holiness standards. But, I was changed the night I spoke in tongues at church and it forever changed my life. I now follow the standards, and it is really not that hard. I am known at my school for being pentecostal because of the way I dress but it doesn't bother me - I'm doing it for God. I plan on becoming a missionary to Africa also. If you have any questions please email me at : sequence_sequel@hotmail.com. If I do not know the answer I will gladly ask my pastor.Don't be afraid to ask me. God Bless You All! | ||
| wbhatter (wbhatter) New member Username: wbhatter Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 69.146.144.141 |
Pentecostal_angel, For starters you are so miss lead... Ask your pastor? Please any answer I need I will go to GOD. You must speak in tounges to be a member and enter the kindom of Heaven???? Again tounges was a gift to the unbelieving jew not to us as christians. Please do yourself a favor and buy a concordnance and read the word of GOD. There is a thing called GODS plan of salvation and no where in that plan does it say anything about tounges. Also, tounges was a actual language like spanish, german, greek and hebrew not some jibber jabber that is chanted. I'm sure it has changed your life , you must now attend classes on how to speak in tounges. The book of Corintians was meant just for you, the mislead christians. Please if you have any questions I will gladly pray for your insight into the word of GOD. | ||
| dead2self (dead2self) New member Username: dead2self Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 65.4.144.45 |
I stumbled across this sight after typing in UPCI youth activitys in the search bar and just wept after reading a few entries. I am one of those mindless brainwashed females of which many have spoken of through out this sight. But hey you bash all of us poor indoctrinated, helpless women for our good and in love of course right? Let me just inform you that no man forces or degrades me and causes me to dress anyway or belief anyway. It's not brainwashing but something deep inside that was not uncommon long ago, a thing called conviction. I read GOD's word, seek understanding from my precious Savior and pray each day. I do not condemn others without convictions and yet they condemn me for having convictions. I will not be intimidated by others who mock and ridicule for instance my uncut hair (it's not about length by the way) for I do this with conviction. Go to any given mall and you will see purple mow hawks, green spiked hair and stars shaved into scalps... and yet uncut hair to you is cultic and offensive. I fail to understand the logic here. Let's move on to the way I dress. I wear dresses and skirts below the knees. Oh my what a shock and poor me right? Look at your history. My Grandmother who had no belief in God wore the same, as did women in the 30's and 40's. Back then a woman wearing pants was unheard of. But apart from that why does it bother you that I desire to please my LORD in this way? This is my conviction from what I read in the word of God. I read that it was an abomination to God for a woman to wear that which pertaineth to a man. In the society I live in that meant to me that GOD wanted me to wear something not pertaining to a man and pants are from history's stand point in the USA considered men's attire. I am not asking you to share my convictions only asking that you treat me as you would wish to be treated. As for the terrible UPCI church of which you speak, let me just say the UPCI is only the ship I ride in and if they sould ever stray from the written word of GOD, I would jump ship and find another church that holds true to Gods word. As to wide spread child abuse. OH MY! If raising children to have strong convictions, morals and good manners is abuse I am guilty of your claims. I raised a beautiful daughter in the UPCI who was taught the word of God and shares many of my convictions. But some convictions she has alone that I do not share. She was not raised with a TV, never attended movies, and yet the poor deprived child graduated high school early with a 4.0, attends Bible college with a 4.0, works in soup kitchens feeding the homeless, works in Jesus houses with underprivileged children, goes to a nursing home on Sunday afternoons, and everyone who meets her never forgets her love for people or her love for her GOD. She is just beautiful within and without. Many young men desire her hand and have courted her and yet she has never been kissed or knew a man before taking her vows. You say poor her but I believe our GOD looks down and is pleased with a young lady who is willing to die out to herself and please her GOD above herself and men. I have a Son also, he is happily married, attends bible college, has given his life to the work of GOD, works with troubled teens, and preaches under the anointing power of GOD. When he was little he would not hit others who hit him because he said, "Mama I just don't want to hurt anyone." He is humble and giving. He does not wear certain clothing or jewelry or watch TV because of his convictions, yet he would never bash or look down on the teens he works with who have holes in many parts of their bodies and who come to him with minds filled with terrible images from Hollywood and hearts broken from troubled homes riddled with abuse.He chooses rather to show them compassion and love. You want to bash the UPCI as a whole and every person in the UPCI church's and then scream love love love at the same time. All I can figure is that when you call the UPCI a cult you must not truly know the church I came to love 20 yrs ago. Every denomination has it's faults a failures and they all have people who attend who really just don't take living for God serious and hurt others. I have a sister-in-law who is in the Baptist faith and yet as a child she was molested by a Baptist minister. There are people in all faiths who just hurt others and care only for themselves. Let's stop the blame game if you have been hurt in a UPCI church. You are throwing out the baby with the bath water and that's ludicrous. I have been in the UPC church for over 20 years and my life has been so very rewarding. Yes I've been hurt before but I get up and seek GOD for understanding and let Him fight my battles. Morning, noon and night I weep for souls and pray. I am not perfect , abused or brainwashed, I am just totally sold out to JESUS the lover of my soul. Pleasing Him means more to me then what anyone thinks of me in this world. I know God is real because he has healed me and my children so many times. When we went to our doctor and he gave no cure or hope, JESUS offered me what the doctor could not.Yes I go to doctors but where they failed me JESUS never has. Doctors can only do so much. Back to convictions... after what JESUS did for me anything He opens up to me in His word and ask out of me would never be to much to ask . This world calls my convictions bondage how far from the truth. What a claim for a world to make, they do so to cover up the terrible bondage they really offer. In JESUS I found true freedom. Freedom to choose. Unlike this world that made me feel I had to dress this way or that way to be accepted, unlike the world that enslaved me in addictions and convinced me that to be female I had to deck myself in jewels, paint my face and walk around half naked in order to be attractive. JESUS offered me true beautiful from the inside out. I no longer have to wear a mask. I'm happy and free. Some of you here slander me, the church I attend and my family with your letters. You speak of horrible things but let me speak of the good you over look because of just a few bad apples in a big barrel of good. I am the proud Mama of a very beautiful, 19 year old daughter, raised to love JESUS and people. This poor little abused child had no TV growing up, wore dresses, no make up and read good literature because of her own convictions, went to Africa on missions at age 16, London with AP Lit glass at age 15, graduated high school early at age 17 with a 4.0, attends bible college with a 4.0, on Saturday feeds the hungry in soup kitchens, on Fridays helps at Jesus houses with underprivileged kids, on Sunday ministers to the elderly in a nursing home and everyone she comes in contact with sees JESUS alive in her. Her time and efferts are spent on the people you say she looks down on. Her actions are enough to discredit your claims. I also have a son who attends bible college, ministers to troubled teens, is happily married and as a little boy after being asked why he didn't hit two boys back who hurt him said, "Mama I just don't want to hurt anyone." He is humble and giving. Both my kids spend their lives unselfishly for others so that bitter self centered people can come on a message board and bash them. While they are out loving a hurting world and doing something to show the love of GOD to others you have nothing better to do then to sit behind a screen and speak bitter words of hate. Ridicule me and my faith if you choose but I ask you how many Mamas today can say they have children who love others and give their lives to show them the love of JESUS. When you give as much of your life to the work of God and to others as these two brainwashed young people who were raised in the UPC church do then you won't have time for this banter. You speak of hateful things but most of what you speak is untrue. Many people in the UPCI are so very happy, love God, study his word, try earnestly to live above reproach and love souls above themselves. I do not judge those who own TVs, women who wear pants, make up or jewelry. On the other hand many do judge me for not having a TV, for wearing a dress and for my convictions. I think people just need to stop this pointless finger pointing, die out to the flesh and live for GOD. Most of what I read here is so very self centered. Dead men can't be offered by anything another does, let's do a little dying out to ourselves. MT 10:39 I am sorry if I sound angry, I am not. I solely wanted to express that things are not always what they seem. Every church you do not personally agree with is not wrong or a cult. If you were wronged by someone the bible teach you sould love those who hurt you and to pray for those who despitefully use you. That is putting GOD and others above self. When you can do that you are truly dead to the flesh yet alive in Christ. Now that I've said all that, I can get back to surfing pages again for youth activity ideas. My husband and I take time out to love young ladies and young men and teach them morals and values in hopes that they will become people who love GOD and others above themselves. We show them according to GOD's word that they can be free from the bondage of this world. Free from drugs, alcohol, premarital sex and the pain of broken homes and lives through the power of the Holy Ghost. You call the UPCI a cult but I came to know this faith as a place where one can go and know true freedom. After 20 years living a selfless life it just gets sweeter and sweeter as the days roll by. Our GOD is so GOOD! | ||
| arron (arron) Member Username: arron Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.43.88 |
dead 2self i do not condeem the upc church but i do not go along with their doctrine. i am a trinty beleiver. all of the upc people i have met have said anyone who is not babtised in the NAME OF JESUS IS NOT SAVED I KNOW I AM SAVED i am sanctified and i have THE BAPTISUM OF THE HOLY GHOST | ||
| luke418 (luke418) New member Username: luke418 Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 68.162.89.15 |
i know many upc and apostolic believers. there are those that teach that unless you have been baptized in Jesus name then you are going to hell, and then there are those that believe it is the scriptural example but doesn't condemn everyone that doesn't. Like any group there are extremes. | ||
| rockin4jesus (rockin4jesus) New member Username: rockin4jesus Post Number: 9 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.0.143.200 |
I have a love hate, sweet and sour feeling for the united pentecostal church... First I'd like to say they are not a cult, no, what the UPC is is a modern day group of Scribes and Pharisee's... The love, I have to agree with them on the biblical doctrines of Oneness, baptism and the Holy Ghost... However after many years and prayer I finally got my answer concerning this issue... I must tell you how much I love the name of Jesus and I totally agree that baptism is supposed to be administerd upon conversion, and that it is supposed to be administered in the name of the Lord, or of the father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost... which is Jesus Christ. This facts are made clear in scripture. You see many people that aren't UPC have been filled with the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in other tongues... What does this mean? simple, now stay with me, it means the same as it did when first Peter saw it poured out upon the gentiles... They have been excepted of God... You are not unsaved because the revelation of who God is wasn't given to the one who baptized them.... However I do believe that if you receive this revelation, yes you should be rebaptised.. As were the deciples of John were rebaptized in Acts 19:1-6.. To whom much is given, much is required... But of the Holiness standard you are soooo puffed up about... WOE UNTO YOU!!! MATTHEW 23:25 WOE unto you, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. MATTHEW 23:27 WOE unto you, SCRIBES and PHARISEES, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. GALATIANS 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? | ||
| rockin4jesus (rockin4jesus) New member Username: rockin4jesus Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 67.0.143.200 |
please excuse my spelling errors... I Corinthians 1:26-27 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to Confound the WISE; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to CONFOUND the things which are mighty; | ||
| dpike777 (dpike777) New member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 24 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.168.44.207 |
Greetings: I was once a member of a strict holiness church. They quote scriptures at you and tell you to conform. However, there is another scripture that they do not quote. 2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter (law), but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. We are to follow the leading of the Spirit. The Word of God without the Spirit of God is a dead letter (no life). The Spirit will point to the Word and give life to it. Then you can obey it by the Spirit of God that empowers you too. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. If the Church would just follow the leading the Spirit like it's supposed too, denominations would die overnight because the Spirit will not lead one person this way and another person that way. There would be total unity. The problem is man that wants to control everything. Let me give you a little insight into something. In the old testament tabernacle was the candlestick. On it were bowls, knops, and flowers. If you study it and add up the total of all of the bowls, knops and flowers you would find a total of 66. How many books are there in the bible? 66! The candlestick was lit from fire off the brazen altar. That fire was supernatural in that it came from God unto the sacrifice. The fire of God (the Holy Ghost) was lighting on the Candestick (the Word). Hence, you cannot understand the Word of God without the Spirit of God illuminating it. That candlestick was the only light in the Holy Place showing us that to walk in holiness, we have to walk by the Word as it is illuminated by the Spirit. Nadab and Abihu got in trouble because they were going to light the Candlestick with fire that did not come off that altar (strange fire). Lev 10:1-2 "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and p}ut fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD." God destroyed them because if He did'nt He would have put His endorsement on men walking in Word by the LIGHT OF MEN (dead religion). Thats the problem in the Church today. Men are putting their own reasoning (light) on the Word and telling you to walk by it, or else. Walking the Spirit is essential to a victorious life and in Christ. Here is the rule of thumb found in Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink (the Law)}; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Righteousness, peace and joy in the Spirit. If your Church does not have this then it has gone wrong somewhere and needs to repent. Blessings Dan | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Intermediate Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 114 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.34.167 |
i have found that most, i say most not all, upc say that if you are not baptised in JESUS NAME you will go to hell. i have found that most, not all, are so condemn ing of anyone else that thye hardly can fellowship with any but their kind of CHURCH. this is hurtful to them | ||
| dpike777 (dpike777) Junior Member Username: dpike777 Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 66.168.44.207 |
love22698: I myself am baptized in the name of Jesus. I am not dogmatic about though. My reason for choosing the name of Jesus is: 1. Baptisim is a type of death and Jesus is the one who died for us. 2. In the name of Jesus we cast out devils. 3. In the name of Jesus we lay hands on the sick. 4. In the name of Jesus we speak with new tongues. 5. In the name of Jesus we can take serpents (devils) and not be hurt. 6. In the name of Jesus we pray. 7. It is Jesus we ask into our lives. In view of all that; I believe one should be baptized in His name as we do all other things in his name. Like I said I am not dogmatic about it. If one is not saved because he was not baptized in Jesus name, then someone needs to inform God of this because He seems to be saving them all over the place. Blessings, Dan | ||
| revkev (revkev) New member Username: revkev Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.145.108.129 |
As a UPC minister I feel bad about the turmoil you are experiencing. We don't practice nor teach children to disobey their parents or to rebel. Of course we believe in certain doctrines that often differ from main stream churches, but we don't try to destroy families. This young man seems to be rather odd and I suspect he has issues that have nothing to do with the UPC. Rather than lump all UPC members as lunatics, and cult members you should recognize that there are bad apples in every barrell. As a Law Enforcement Officer I arrest lots of Baptists for terrible crimes every day, but does that mean that Baptists are all bad? Of course not! Most of my family are Baptist and I know that they are good solid citizens. Don't start screaming Witch or your bound to cause the Witch hunts all over again. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for gossiping. I came from a real cult that I was raised in, I definitely know what is and is not a cult. In truth, individuals are free moral agents and they ultimately have the ability to choose right or wrong. Don't attack all UPC members or Apostolic churhes just because a few of them make terrible decisions. He who is without sin, cast the first stone. Striving to live in Jesus' name, RevKEv | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 281 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
the upc people i have known have been very dogmatic in their teachings and will always start something about JESUS NAME baptisum. maybe some dont come against others but the ones i met certainly do. | ||
| revkev (revkev) New member Username: revkev Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 65.145.104.152 |
arron, Let me clarify, I do believe in Jesus' name baptism, I believe it is essential for salvation, and yes I do believe that to be baptized in any other way is incorrect. However, our doctrine is no different than say the Baptist doctrine of ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED or Greasy Grace. What I mean is the Baptists are dogmatic about this doctrine what is the difference. After all we shouldn't be tossed around by every wind of doctrine. We do need to be rooted and grounded in our beliefs. That is not cultic in nature, I would hesitate to lump all pentecostals apostolic or not as cults. What you are doing is calling anyone who has a different belief than you are a Cult. That is dangerous and ungodly IMO. Are all catholic priests pedofiles or homosexuals? Of course not, are all baptist ministers premiscuis and drunks? Absolutelly not, but their are alarming numbers that are. But we can't lump them all as a pedofile can we? Use a little common sense and don't allow your emotions to rule you. Sincerly, RevKev | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 297 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
i simply stated what i have expereanced, i did not say thye were all that way neither did i say all the upc were that way, but the ones i had experences with were. that is what i said dont change my words to something i did not say | ||
| osirus (osirus) New member Username: osirus Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
Is speaking in tounges neccisary for salvation? | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 676 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Osirus, It would be interesting to get Rev Kev's ideas on your question. The United Pentecostal Church has different doctrines than larger mainstream Pentecostal Churches such as Assembly of God, and The International Church of the Foursquare Gospel. The fact of the matter is that the Apostolic Pentecostal or United Pentecostal Church doctrines state that: 1. You need to repent. 2. You need to be baptized in the formula Jesus Only. To get around this one Pentecostal minister baptized in the name of the "Father Son and Holy Spirit which is the Lord Jesus Christ." A. The reason "UPC" believes this is because they do not believe the Trinity as mainstream Christian Churches believe. They believe that Jesus is the Father Son and Holy Sprit, that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are just titles of Jesus Christ. In the early church the person who believed in this was named Sabelius. They still believe that Jesus Christ is God Almighty come in the flesh. 3. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same as being born again to the UPC, and the evidence of speaking in tongues is a requirement to be saved according to their doctrinal statement. Again, Assembly of God, and Foursquare believes that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is additional and subsequent to salvation. Their beliefs are the same to Baptist on the subject and that is that according to Romans 10:9 - "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God hath raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved." KJV Erich | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 307 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
osirus..no speaking in tongues is not necessary for salvation. it is the evidence of THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISIUM or of haveing THE HOLY GHOST filling you. you can be saved and born again with out the baptisium. it is CHRIST plus nothing. | ||
| osirus (osirus) New member Username: osirus Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
I see. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 680 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Osirus, I forgot to add that the Church of God in Christ, (Black Assembly of God) also do not believe that way. | ||
| true22698 (true22698) New member Username: true22698 Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
easeltine... do you watch ge patterson on tv? i like him | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 686 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
No, I decided to only watch DVD/VCR's on my TV. I made a decision not to get cable around 15 years ago. I get my info from the Internet. If GE Patterson is Church of God in Christ the denomination is pretty good. There is a church that we have visited a couple of times around my house with Andre and Sandra Crouch as ministers. I went once and my family and I sort of stood out in the church. Sandra showed a dance step going side-by-side for those "Conservatives out there". You know I was dancing the best that I could considering my genetic makeup.  Praise the Lord! | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Intermediate Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 196 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
ge patterson is cogic | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 687 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
I recalled also that Bishop Porter who was Chairman of the Board of Promise Keepers was COGIC. In my Promise Keepers Bible it says about Bishop Porter, Pastor, All Nations Pentecostal Church of God in Christ. | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Intermediate Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 197 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
i dont know bishop porter, nor do i support or listen to the promise keepers. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 694 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.124.169.105 |
Why? | ||
| love22698 (love22698) Intermediate Member Username: love22698 Post Number: 207 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
i think this is mostly a money thing, at least i do not listen to them. | ||
| easeltine (easeltine) Advanced Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 696 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 64.136.27.225 |
Ok. | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 351 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
jason stone where are you. i miss your posts. havent heard from you in a long time. looking for you back. i enjoyed our posts even though we did not agree and had some rather heated discussions. | ||
| am2 (am2) New member Username: am2 Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
what is the diffrence between the UPCI and apostolic pentecostal? | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 447 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
as far as i can tell they are the same in doctrine. they claim to follow apostolic teaching. they both beleive in baptisum in JESUS NAME. | ||
| am2 (am2) New member Username: am2 Post Number: 18 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 137.3.122.49 |
Do they both believe in a pre trib rapture? | ||
| arron (arron) Intermediate Member Username: arron Post Number: 449 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.37.215 |
as far as i know they both do | ||
| anoynomous (anoynomous) New member Username: anoynomous Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 64.53.137.20 |
APOSTOLIC PENTECOSTAL DOCTINE IS THE TRUTH OF THE WORD OF GOD APOSTOLIC IS THE ADJECTVAL FORM OF THE NOUN APOSTLE ACTS 2:42 READ THAT (APOSTLES' DOCTRINE) PENTECOSTAL MEANS WE BELEIVE & PRACTISE WHAT HAPPENED ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST THE PROMISE OF THE FATHER THE HOLY GHOST ACTS CHAPTERS 1& 2 (NOW THERE MAY PEOPLE UNDER THIS TITLE THAT ADD THINGS TO IT THATS NOT APART OF WHAT I TOLD YOU WHAT IT MEANS) APOSTOLIC PENTECOSTAL THE TRUE ONES ARE TRUE CHRISTIANS CHRISTIANS ARE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST (Message edited by ANOYNOMOUS on November 04, 2005) | ||
| godchild (godchild) Advanced Member Username: godchild Post Number: 934 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.52.7 |
anoy sounds like another who just fell off the turnip truck. | ||
| anoynomous (anoynomous) Member Username: anoynomous Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 64.53.137.20 |
GOD BLESS YOU godchild LOVE YOU IN CHRIST JESUS | ||
| inhislight (inhislight) New member Username: inhislight Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 24.155.217.106 |
I really feel sorry for those who take examples of something or someone doing something questionable, bad, or plainly stupid...and use that to pre-judge a certain church or group of worshippers., to staunchly assume that someone's else's opinions or beliefs are just wrong, right off the bat, so to speak. It is far more WISE for a person to find out facts first..better yet, READ THE BIBLE all the way through, and as many times as possible so that THE WORD has time to 'soak in' .. the WORD of GOD is unlike any other book one may read, in that it is POWER to change., there is much more in there than 'grounds' to argue salvation..or what one must wear or not wear, do or not do. There is LIFE and that more abundantly in there, if one will just take the challenge seriously, putting whole heart/mind/soul into it..with much sincere prayer, asking GOD to reveal what IS HIS TRUTH., not necessarily all of what the local pastor says, not what the neighbor says, not what parents may say, but what he directly has to say..and to each individual., in other words, a close personal REAL relationship with GOD must come first. Its only fair and wise to do it this way, instead of prejudging others. It is completely unchristian to malign others, GOD said that his disciples would be known by their love one for another.. so far I've not read/heard much in here that reminiscent of the pure LOVE of GOD..which is crucial to seeking and finding truth. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 610 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
i do not call them a cult, i may have before, but not now they are however a very donineering group. i beleive that they are really saved just mixed up in what they beleive | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 658 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
hey turtle... you and i are famous.. according to not | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 678 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
not.. please get saved, even though i dont you will,, and then write again.. i know you want hang up your sword the devil never does. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Senior Member Username: godchild Post Number: 1095 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 4.255.40.185 |
not, that's a great idea. I'm going to put on Christmas music too! | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 760 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
i am trinity. i have some friends who are oneness. i do not agree with them but we are still speakable. some i have had contact with are so fanatical that they call every one who believes in the trinity hell bound. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 765 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
merry CHRISTmas to all | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 766 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
tod, i know that you are also not. i will answer no questions for you as you do not believe what i say as you say i am going to hell for i am a pentecostal. just because you lost some one ( you did not say if it was to a pentecost faith or not ) dose not mean all peenteclstal are going to hell. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 767 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
i meant pentecostals | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 778 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
love to all too. merryCHRISTmas everyone | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 784 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
tod... i am sorry your dad departed. i accept your apology please accept mine. i do know that i am saved. if you will read your dads post he labled all.. pentecostals as hell bound people. why i dont know perhaps he had a problem or lost a loved one to some cult. please do not lable us as a cult for we are not. true there are many that are cultic in beheavior, but as a whole we are not and are not as a church body either. agin i am sorry i misjudged you as for your childs question. the BIBLE doesnt given any information on last name for JESUS. as far as i have studied. but again ask your own church and they will tell you what they believe. GOD love you and GOD BLESS | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 787 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
tod a question. since you are a catholic i will ask you as i have always wanted to know.. how do catholics believe about hell and what is the difference between hell and pugertory in the catholic faith. we have no purgotory in the pentecostal faith . i am not being smart i am simply wanting to know. this is not a trick or trap question either. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 807 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
i think this post started out talking about the apostolic or oneness faith. they do go on extremes with their doctrine of bapptisum i had one oneness pastor tell me the BLOOD DID NOT SAVE but the baptisum in THE NAME OF JESUS did. i have had some friends whot tangled up in that and were very fanatical toward others .. if you are saved , you are saved by THE BLOOD of JESUS you are saved readless if you been baptised in THE NAME OF JESUS or not. theif on the cross went to HEAVEN and he wasnt baptised. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 822 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
there is THE FATHER , THERE IS THE SON AND THERE IS THE HOLY GHOST. dont try to tell me that JESUS was talking to HIMSELF in the garden or on the cross when HE PRAYED. when the baptisum took place JESUS WAS IN.. IN THE WATER... THE FATHER SPOKE FROM.. FROM... HEAVEN... AND THE HOLY GHOST DESCENDED .. ( FROM HEAVEN ) IN A DODILY SHAPE LIKE A DOVE. THERE WERE THREE THERE AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. | ||
| anoynomous (anoynomous) Intermediate Member Username: anoynomous Post Number: 138 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 64.53.137.20 |
GOD BLESS YOU TOD IN JESUS NAME. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 825 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
tod i believe in trinity. THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY GHOST i believe that all three are GOD IN ONE . JESUS was the WORD IN THE BEGINNING WITH THE FATHER IT SAYS HE WAS THERE AND THAT HE WAS GOD AND WAS WITH GOD. THE HOLY GHOST IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD, JESUS BEING THE SON OF GOD. I BELEIVE THAT THE ONENESS DOCTRINE IS FALSE AND THAT IT IS diffinatly not for me. i also do not believe that baptising in THE NAME of JESUS is what saves a person. we are saved by faith in the BLOOD OF JESUS. JESUS IS GOOD AND IS EQUAL WITH THE FATHER. I WORSHIP GOD THROUGH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 830 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
tod if i may ask... did your dad pass away or di he just go off the internet? i havent quite understood this. i thought one time he may have died then i wasnt sure. can you please tell me if you dont mind. thanks and merry CHRISTmas | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 831 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
tod if i may ask... did your dad pass away or di he just go off the internet? i havent quite understood this. i thought one time he may have died then i wasnt sure. can you please tell me if you dont mind. thanks and merry CHRISTmas | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 900 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.169.8.34 |
tod i saw where your father posted again but not any more why? | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 968 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.32.209 |
not enough tiem sometimes. we all need to use what time we have. | ||
| arron (arron) Advanced Member Username: arron Post Number: 995 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.32.209 |
i am not judeging you not your works will prove out your salvation. if you dont bear the fruit of a believer you are not saved if you do you are saved. | ||
| arron (arron) Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 1011 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.32.209 |
be good be calm be peaceful not |
