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rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 404
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 2:54 pm: | 
|
Reposted from another thread...
R.J.,
Jack and I were talking with someone this morning about GGWO issues and the subject of child abuse came up. It was a very sobering conversation in light of all the sexual and physical abuse that has gone on for years within this organization that has been covered up.
I remember some of your earlier posts and your passion for all the children who have been abused. One in particular that broke my heart when I read it was from a young girl named Amy.
If you wouldn't mind, I would encourage you to refresh all of our memories again with the reality of what has gone on. It was, and is, a vital part of FactNet.
For the kids...
Chris
****************************************
A few thoughts about children in "the ministry".
Indoctrination starts early in a disfuntional cultic organization and this is extremely so at GGWO. Children especially are sought for training, for if the organization can get them early, they can be blinded to the dangers of improper advances from adults, false doctrines, rebellion against parents who question, etc. We have all seen it.
Sunday school, Christian Day School, Camp Life, teen ministry...all designed to supposedly "raise up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it."
Sounds good, but is as dangerous in a dysfunctional organization as was the Hilter Youth in the last century. These children are vulnerable and taught not to speak out against leaders from a very young age. This is very very dangerous and must not be taken lightly. parent with hearts for God are believing they are doing the best for their child...but beware of the wolves in sheeps clothing Mom and Dad.
God has given parents charge over their offspring and I caution any parent who might read this...the abuses inherent in any organization in total manifest themselves horrifically in the children's ministries. Children have no way to know something that is said or something that is happening could be wrong when the obedience is taught over and over, respect for pastoral authority is demanded and their individuality is stripped away. No child is allowed to veer from the party line or they will be accused of having "soul power" and a sensual spirit. I know this first had from a teen I know.
I am not against a good Christian education as long as it is balanced, and doctrinally clean. But guns, hidden cameras, false doctrines of obedience, child molesters unreported to parents on staff, etc...no, this I do not believe in.
I have been told by more than one teacher involved the TBS schools over the years that teachers caught molesting children were shuffled from one day school to another within the system...with no one being told about the abuses. I am privy to information about a person connected to Camp Life as having been an abuser of a child. Why is this person allowed to be around children? The leadership has known about this person for years and has allowed the continued involvement in Camp Life. Has this person hurt anyone of late? No one knows for sure...but it is known that in years past this person was involved in sexual child abuse.
Before I am blasted for speaking out let me say this as strongly as I can...In another thread, I said, and I repeat it here...I will not divulge this person's name for I do not want to be sued by the church. Ask the leadership...they know who it is. I will say that I would never never never send my child to Camp Life , the day school, the high school or to church services at GGWO.
My challenge to parents: Stop. Think about to what you may be subjecting your child ...it is important. As an adult I was spiritually abused by this cultic organization and changed forever. How much worse that parents sacrifice their children upon an altar of lies, for what awaits them may be more hellish than hell itself.
RJ |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 405
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 2:56 pm: |
|
What are the effects of sexual abuse?
"But my abuse happened years ago. Can it really affect me now?" Most likely it does. The long-term effects of sexual abuse can be quite pervasive, touching many different aspects of your life.
Relationships with others are frequently affected as survivors often have difficulty trusting others. This leads to difficulties in establishing and maintaining satisfying relationships, especially intimate relationships. Some survivors avoid dating relationships, while others have frequent, sexually intense relationships. Survivors may question their sexual orientation, especially if they were exposed to frequent sexual experiences by a perpetrator of the same gender. Women who have been abused by men may fear men and turn to other women for comfort and intimacy, and the same is true for men. In addition to dating relationships, relationships with friends are affected. The survivor's deep seated feelings of shame and guilt makes it difficult for them to believe that anyone would really want them as a friend.
Survivors are affected on an individual level as well. Many survivors struggle with feelings of inferiority and self-loathing. As a survivor, you may struggle with depression, have strong urges to harm yourself, or perhaps have difficulty expressing anger appropriately. Additionally, survivors may have unexplained physical problems or symptoms associated with their emotional state.
Many survivors try to deal with their pain in ways that can become problematic. One common reaction is to compulsively seek or avoid sex. Eating disorders are also common among survivors of sexual abuse, as are drug and alcohol addictions.
A survivor's relationship with God can be affected in far reaching ways. "Where was God when this was happening to me?" is a question that all survivors ask themselves, although they may be afraid to voice their spiritual doubts and struggles to the rest of the Christian community. Abuse that has been perpetrated by a member of the Christian community or in connection with the church can cause a survivor to doubt God's love or even God's reality. Many survivors feel angry with God, and feel disconnected from their faith, even though they may appear deeply religious to others.
However, it is important to remember that not all survivors are affected in the same way, nor does each survivor experience all possible symptoms of abuse. The way a person experiences the effects of sexual abuse is influenced by their own unique personality style, the particular circumstances of their abuse, their relationship to the person who abused them, and many other factors.
However, regardless of how have been effected by abuse, healing is possible!
http://www.messiah.edu/engle/cservice/effects.htm |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 406
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 2:57 pm: |
|
Amy's Diary
monday 8:30 PM
i can't believe she made me sit there. HIS office. he told her i was flunking his damned class. parent teacher conference. she is so stupid, she fawns over every single word he says, cuz he a pastor. he's the big wig authority. And he kept looking at me like I was some bad kid. Both of them just pounding the questions
why don't you study more amy
why don't you pay attention in class amy
why why why amy.
she is never wrong and neither is he, is he mom!
wonder what she'd think if she knew what he did to me in that office.
i know what the rug smells like mama
i know how many tiles are in the ceiling mama
he knows when to lock the door mama
he grunts like a pig mama.
she yelled at me in the car. my fingernails had made my
palms bleed. guess my fists aren't worth much anyway
tuesday 7:40 PM
i almost made it out. He was talking to the superintendent
and i almost got out of the building. almost. amy! my office, now!
he says god is on his side. that men are closer to god and they understand more.
he's a pig. god must be a pig too. he really hurt me today. if mama sees more blood on my underwear she's going to freak out and call me dirty for it. daddy seems to think this guy is
god or something. what if he comes here for dinner like daddy wants. no. i can'i do this . mom now freaks out everytime i come home from school and shut my bedroom door. she thinks i am just a brat. maybe i am.
friday 3:50 PM
i bit him and he hit me. hit me hit me. if i say no he hits me.
says gods going to punish me. god is already punishing me.
mama says i am acting like a demon, maybe I am or carrying a demon. can 14 year olds get pregnant?
his wife asked me to babysit. mom said yes i would and he winked
at me. mama says i can't talk to boys don't worry
mama. i won't.
copyright RJ Fernalld 2004
do not reprint without permission |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 407
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 3:02 pm: |
|
Parents:
You have been entrusted by God with the life of your child. Your first responsibility under God is the health, both spiritual and physical of your child. He has no one to protect him other than you. She has no one to turn to if you turn away. You are accountable before God for his welfare. YOU will answer for your betrayal of this innocent child if you aren't protecting her.
If you choose to protect a man, be he pastor, sinner, billionaire or pauper that sins against your child's body or spirit, you will reap what you have sown. That is the way of it and you will not escape.
But worse than even THAT...your child pays for the sins you commit. He has to suffer because of your betrayal. He has to take it because he has no choice. You have helped his rapist as if you had held your child down for him.
I say this with a heavy heart and grieved spirit parents: you will have much to answer for if you have betrayed your children for the sake of a man of God.
I know parents who have wept bitter tears because they didn't protect their child when they had the chance. One woman told me she'd do anything to have spoken up. I told her to pray about confessing to God, to her kid and to her church ...to ask God to help her to know what to do. Before she left her congregation with her daughter she did just that...and they have become a family once more.
It is possible to love God and your church and your believes AND your children all at the same time. It is when your priorities are out of whack that someone pays...make sure, please that it isn't your child?
"Better that a millstone..." |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 408
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 3:13 pm: |
|
Open Message to the kids from Roberta:
People do understand and care. We know that you have been scared to talk, to put it into words, to say it to anyone..."I was sexually abused by a person at GGWO". You are afraid. We do understand.
I want to help. But I know that posting anything publically can make you
a victim of the insensitive people who like to mock and make fun or of those who are too scared themselves to help you. It is wrong that they do this, but because the world is an open place where anyone can speak, they will continue.
So. I am offering you privacy and a safe place to talk. If you want to pour it out to someone who will weep and pray for you, email me. I can offer you my heart. I will NOT tell anyone your name or story. I will NOT speak of anything you say to another. Your privacy is as important to me as you are.
I am not looking to use your pain to hurt GGWO or any individula, my focus is you and you only. That is my pledge before God.
If you are seeking advise as to how to get help I can offer you numbers to call, and I will respect your privacy all the way.
If you need me, please let me help. I am not a counselor, but I can find you someone who is.
Here's a thread at Discuss_GGWO that is meant just for you:
http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=39
Roberta
srfern@verizon.net |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 409
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 3:14 pm: |
|
"The issue for me .....also includes the still not-addressed issue of sexual abuse of our children and teens inside the church. THAT is an issue that the church NEVER addresses, and if it has to, it is usually because a pastor or youth pastor or elder has been caught molesting kids. Better that it would have been addressed before; but still, better late than never, right? But I am sorry to tell you that in EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE when these crimes have occurred where I have been called in or given a report, not only was it still never addressed before the people, but the very leadership and often the congregation sought to cover it up! Worse - and I am telling you the truth - in every instance, mercy and grace were extended to the perpetrator, to the extent that anyone who demanded criminal pursuit for the sake of the injured child was called UNLOVING and UNFORGIVING.
What in the world is the MATTER with us???
If a Christian leader is found to have homosexual inclinations, (even if he has not fallen to that sin) he is drawn and quartered and exiled from the Body of Christ. Denominations will forgive adultery, even divorce, before that. But what about predators of children? Suddenly the church discovers mercy and forgiveness it will not extend to other sins. Am I saying predators cannot be forgiven, restored? Not at all. But for the grace of God go I. But there's a third party here that I have patently seen the church treat as insignificant, non important in these matters; children. It is a demonic blindness of the worst kind. In this, we mirror how the world has treated these acts: A three time crack user can get life in prison. But what do we give "pedophiles"? Probation plus FREE therapy, and often they are put right back into the home in the belief that families must stay together at all costs.
The church, long a victim of family disintegration, also believes in keeping the family together no matter what. I understand why; but in the case of crimes against children, our thinking has become twisted. We absolutely, patently ignore the scripture where Jesus said it is better for a millstone to be tied around your neck than to cause a little one to stumble. I have NEVER heard this preached from the pulpit in defense of children. NEVER!
Several years ago, a man I knew in a local church had sexually involved his children. He felt guilty and confessed. He did go to jail. I bear him no ill will. You play, you pay. What absolutely infuriated me was learning that the sympathetic counselors at church said, "Well, the children seemed to enjoy it; they thought it was a game. We don't think it damaged them much." HELLLLOOOOOOOOO? Don't these people understand that predators MAKE it a game, so the children don't realize until their self-destructive lives fall apart in their teens and twenties, that their lives have been demolished by this "game"?
I know that sexual abuse of children is terrible to talk about, and even worse to face. Which is exactly why people in authority in the church have gotten away with it for years without getting caught, and too often, when they ARE caught, they are moved to another parish after a short time of "rehabilitation" and do the same thing somewhere else! And I know satanism and the occult is equally difficult for the church to deal with. It's unpleasant, it's nasty. Unfortunately, it's real. And no amount of denial is going to make it go away."
Gregory R Reid |
chris (chris)
New member
Username: chris
Post Number: 24
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.17.250.227
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 3:18 pm: |
|
RJ, thank you for bringing your previous posts to the forefront again. We watched GGWO service this morning and were sickened by the self-edification efforts, especially Melody Redgate's praises of the great works of that ministry in the name of peace on behalf of the homeless and the downtrodden.
Why do you think, with all the abuses that have occured, that so few have come forward? The few that have shared their experiences seemed only to have told a few friends. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Please stay vocal on this; it's your forte and an important issue.
Chris |
bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
Intermediate Member
Username: bob_brinton
Post Number: 272
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.162.58
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 3:55 pm: |
|
Are Melody and Sean in GGWO? I haven't read anything here about them for a while, and figured they were clear. |
chris (chris)
New member
Username: chris
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.17.250.227
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 4:07 pm: |
|
Bob:
Melody and Sean left years ago. I believe they're with Jerry Falwells' ministry. Remember Bruce, Paul, Steve and Melody used to sing together? Then Bruce left...now Paul left...it was just Melody and Steve singing up there today. Kinda' eerie, isn't it?
Chris |
bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
Intermediate Member
Username: bob_brinton
Post Number: 275
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.162.58
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 4:30 pm: |
|
Chris; Everything I hear about Bruce (and from what I consider good and reliable sources) is extremely positive. And he's the son-in-law of Ed Chute, whom I also trust. Does it not seem like a kind of jelling process is going on here? I expect big things in the year to come. Let's pray beyond what seems practically reachable. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 419
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 5:09 pm: |
|
"Why do you think, with all the abuses that have occured, that so few have come forward? The few that have shared their experiences seemed only to have told a few friends. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Please stay vocal on this; it's your forte and an important issue."
Why Cult Kids Don't Tell
Kids who are part of a cult because their parents are involved have no choice, no voice and no chance at all of having the power to break away. They are victims of the worst kind and worst combinations of abuses imaginable.
Mom and Dad are committed to The Ministry. They want "the life". Mom and Dad are taught to obey authority and in turn teach their children to be so obedient that it makes the kids vulnerable to ALL in authority in the organization. Add to this the fact that the parents are taught NOT to believe their sinful children, and what do you end up with?
You end up with a pedophile's heaven. Children who are taught to obey, parents who are taught to reverence every man who is deemed a leader/pastor, and parents who are taught NOT to believe their children who will "lie quicker than tell the truth". It is a situation that spells tragedy and disaster.
So, a man realizes the environment is perfect...he cannot be caught, charged nor ever be unprotected: the ministry will cover up whatever happens, the kid won't be believed and the parents aren't properly protecting their kids anyway since they put the ministry before everything...he is free to abuse anyone he wants to. And he will. Believe me, he will.
So, he choses his victim. He isolates the kid, knowing no one will question. The kid is threatened...perhaps that daddy will never be a pastor if you don't cooperate, no one will believe you anyway, beisdes, you know you want me to do it, and anyway it's your fault for seducing me, a man of God.
The child suffers not only the physical degradation of the gross act itself, but believes the threats, realizes he/she has no power and that daddy will hate it if he never gets to be pastor cuz God wants daddy to be a pastor, I can't go against God's will, and this man is a leader, he will kick us out of the ministry then we won't be in the geographical will of God....
What a horrible nightmare. How can they possibly tell? Who would believe them?
When I encourage the kids to contact the police, a rape crisis center, 911, whatever...they too often are afraid also to do this because these are "worldly" places of refuge. I have given them phone numbers for Christian counselors, and some have said they can't because the other places aren't as spiritual as GGWO. I could just scream when they say that one.
See the pattern? This is why I have wanted GGWO to close completely.
I know of a case where the abuser was known by the parents (who were in the ministry) of the child and the parents covered it up by sending the abuser( who was in a branch ministry) to the bible school in Lenox so he could "get right". This man was part of the bus ministry, was a youth counselor etc and all this was known by the church leaders. Why didn't the victim say anything? Would you? Why bother? What would be the point? Obviously everyone "loves" the abuser MORE than the abused, the abused don't tell.
I am holding back so much emotion and fury as I write this. While I was a student at SSB for reasons I cannot understand or explain, I was privy to many "situations" that at the time didn't really add up...seeing a pastor and a child speaking together in a corner where I knew inside that something was wrong...inappropriate 'closeness" on the pastor's part...if you know what I mwean. The kid always looked so reieved to have the "conversation" interrupted it was almost frightening. I would hear the teens talk about someone they called "The Space Invader", a teacher who always stood too close, touched too much etc. They would talk about how they escaped him and talk about those who didn't. It was creepy.
When I met Amy it was before I went to Lenox. Her story is about the most outrageous horror you can imagine. I am ashamed to say that I hardly believed her at first. I have since learned about a few people...more than a few who were abused by leaders at TBS who now are parents and they are in the ministry and send their children to the schools, kids functions etc. I wonder if they have any idea what they are doing. Do they realize that what happened to them they have set their own children up to suffer?
The dirty little secret behind the scenes is almost too much to bear so no one deals with it. So spiritual rape is coupled with child rape and guess what it produces? Kids who cut themselves, kids who abuse others, kids who hate God, kids who grow up to obey the ministry and allow their own kids to be abused.
Do I hate this? More thanI can possibly tell you. There are no words I can say to God that expresses my outrage and fury. I want to rescue them all. I want to slap their parents, I want to see every leader who hurts a child burned at the stake. I admit this freely. One of the reason I have stuck it out here on FactNet is because I believe in this cause with all my being. The kids that contact me get this:
"Please tell someone what is happening to you? Please believe me when I tell you that this is NOT your fault. Please let someone help you because they really can do it and they really want to make this stop. Call someone. They will believe you. I love you and if you need other numbers to call then the ones here write to me and I will find them for you."
I will ask anyone reading this: If you know or suspect that a child you know may be in trouble, may be a victim of sexual abuse DO NOT CLOSE YOUR EYES. Call the police, call a counselor, get that child some help...please! These kids aren't just rape victims, they are in a cult through no choice of their own and they are incredibly more damaged emotionally than you can know.
I hope Chris that I have answered your questions. I am so convinced that these kids are the victims no one remembers. Thank you for promting me to write this. The shit usually hits the fan when this topic comes up as it strikes a big nerve with the guilty at GGWO. They have hated me for stressing this issue. I have recieved threats and condemnation galore. But it hasn't stopped me from giving out phone numbers and it never will. I just wish I could do more.
(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 19, 2004) |
bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
Intermediate Member
Username: bob_brinton
Post Number: 277
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.162.58
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 5:14 pm: |
|
Thank you Roberta. Keep the iron in the fire. This is a really important aspect to expose. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 420
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 5:19 pm: |
|
Thanks Bob. I know that you pray for the kids. Sometimes it is so heartbreaking to know that it continues, that nothing about this seems to change, but I believe God will rescue the victims of this disgusting misuse of power by the clergy...it has to happen. He has never failed me, and I know He won't fail them. We must do all we can. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 428
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 9:08 pm: |
|
Sexual Abuse in Cults
Abusive sex in a cult carries all the devastation of incest. The dynamics in an unhealthy cult-like organization closely resemble the dynamics in an incest family. Incest means sexual contact between relatives, or people who perceive themselves to be closely related. A special bond of trust exists between a child and the parent figure and when that trust is violated through sexually exploitive acts, that is incest. Incest means any sexual act that is forced on a child, including lack of privacy, exhibitionism or pornography.
The intensity of abuse determines how much damage the victim will suffer. If the abuse happens repeatedly, if the victim is trapped in the situation, if the perpetrator terrorizes the victim, if others ignore or deny the victim's plight, and if the victim blames himself, the effects will be more intense. Incestuous families (and institutions) function under strict rules where the injunction to deny the incest is the strongest and most important rule. Victims may feel overwhelming stress over the sexual abuse and yet submissively idealize the abusers. This helps them preserve the illusion that their childhood is okay. To believe otherwise is to break the family rules and "lose" the idealized family they want to have. A child may act like they enjoy (or don't notice) what the molester is doing to their body, but that is just a survival mechanism. Most child victims mentally dissociate from their bodies to withstand the abuse. They usually hate the people who abuse them and have fantasies of killing the perpetrator(s). Everyone, even adults, fear sexual molestation. Rape is a violent and frightening experience. It is even more so for children, who know nothing of sex and are too young to understand what is happening to them if someone molests them. It is one of the most unfortunate things that can happen to a child. Children look up to adults and see them as the embodiment of all wisdom. This is natural because children are dependent on their parents and would be totally helpless without them. It goes against the ideal family archetype to think that something is wrong with the adults, so children tend to transfer the blame to themselves. Self-blame is a powerful element of the defense system, because children who are raised in abusive groups are trapped between hating the perpetrators and hating themselves. These adults are often their primary caretakers. Some who are raped put up little resistance. In some cases the incestuous sex is the only attention they receive in a loveless environment. Children are naturally attracted to adults and crave their attention. Thus, the victims' own emotional needs set them up to receive the abuse and think it was their own fault.
Another reason victims may keep the secrets is because they are afraid of being ostracized. Perpetrators warn their victims that revealing the secrets will wreck things for everyone else and make them very unpopular. Perpetrators sometimes beat their victims into silence. The perpetrators thus draw their victims into a reality of secrecy, shame, hopelessness and guilt where they feel isolated and vulnerable. The child must cope with a self-image that includes sins most adults are afraid to even talk about. Thus, the most devastating effect of sexual abuse is to make children deal with unfair, complex emotional issues. Abused children grow up with overwhelming emotional problems that include feelings of guilt, self-hatred and mistrust.
Victims of incest take these feelings into their adult lives. Although they are adults, they feel like defenseless children, and continue to behave as if they are helpless and alone. They often hate themselves and see themselves as bad. The guilt causes self-destructive behavior, as they continue to punish themselves for their imagined sins. Lack of self-confidence and self-respect prevent any hope for true happiness. Sooner or later, victims find out they were robbed of their childhood innocence, and it may never be returned. Thus, they experience feelings of extreme grief. They may feel like freaks. Susan Forward and Craig Buck, authors of Betrayal of Innocence, call this state of mind the "Three D's": Dirty, Damaged and Different" (p. 23).
Many victims feel estranged from the rest of society, which they tend to idealize. They may think everyone else is happy, successful and deserving. They may become extremely rebellious or destructive, secretly craving acknowledgement for what they experienced. They may become obsessive compulsive, trying to do everything perfectly to atone to the world. Since it's difficult to form trusting relationships, they may go through life alone. The frustration, manifested as hostility, makes it even more difficult to maintain friendships or hold down honest jobs. Often, victims discover drugs and develop addictions to self-medicate their emotional pain.
As a side note, drug addiction is a curable medical and psychological problem. This book describes some of the best ways to treat an addiction. Locking someone in jail for the "crime" of addiction usually just adds to the addict's pain. The person may lose their job, friends and other securities in life, making it even more difficult to get back on their feet. This is what I fear for the young adults who were raised in abusive cults. In the group I belonged to, many adults panhandled or sold drugs, so their children may see these activities as their only options to support themselves as adults.
A note to survivors: It's a hard road back, but remember that reality is what you make it and approximately ninety percent of the people out there in the material world are against child abuse. If you surrender to the process of life, I guarantee you will be happy you did. Just learn to stay away from the cultish, coercive people (that other ten percent).
All incest victims suffer, however silent their suffering, no matter how successfully they seem to function. Usually, childhood incest trauma remains in the back of the mind throughout life. Most often, survivors simply resign themselves to their symptoms. Those who can afford therapy will eventually express their pain and begin to resolve it. The process takes years.
http://surrealist.org/norimuster/handbook2.html |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 429
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 9:10 pm: |
|
Profile of Child Abusers
Child abusers strive to enter the institutional hierarchy of a cult, because they can hide their crimes more easily if people see them as gurus or preachers. Once in power, they elevate men like themselves into positions of authority; some cult leaders have a large entourage of thugs.
There are many reasons why adult men abuse children. Some perpetrators are fixated pedophiles. This means they became stuck at a certain level of development, usually due to being abused. Thus, they grow older in years but remain emotional children and relate to children for sex. Others are called situational abusers, which means that they abuse during periods of extreme stress, often complicated by alcohol and drug abuse. Perpetrators usually have a history of being beaten and violated as children and act out their feelings by raping defenseless children. Becoming the perpetrator is their way of claiming power, rising out of the victim role. Often they think that what happened to them as children was all right. They may believe that violence is necessary to raise children. Some men were initiated into sex by an older person in their family. They were incest victims, but may believe that a certain amount of incest is normal.
Cult perpetrators may portray themselves as normal people, or even better, as spiritual people. A few perpetrators feel ashamed of what they do, but most are numb to what is wrong with their behavior. The most dangerous child molesters are sociopathic, callously using others as objects to fulfill their demented needs, unable to empathize with the pain of their victims. These men minimize, rationalize and blame everyone but themselves for their criminal acts. Often, they blame the victims for "tempting" them or for behaving so badly that they "deserved it." Psychopathic child molesters can easily lie to try to justify their actions, and in cults, abusive men routinely lie to talk their way out of trouble when parents and others who try to stand up to them.
Cult leaders who rape and beat children wrap themselves in religious garb. They are working members of organizations, purportedly serving the cause in the same way as any other member. In addition, like priests of the Catholic church, many even take vows of celibacy. Although most people instinctively trust "men of the cloth," these men, as a class, have shown they are not intrinsically worthy of trust. These perpetrators may cry, plead for understanding, pretend to acknowledge that what they have done is horrible, and promise to change. In the Catholic church, repentant (but still dangerous) priests are often forgiven and sent to a new parish. In many cases, their superiors have been willing to cover up for them. This has happened numerous times in a variety of groups. The truth is, sex offenders never change their behavior on their own. Nor do they change after a short series of counseling sessions.
Perpetrators desperately need help, yet instead of confronting their problems in a mature way, they choose to continue to act out their conflict. The typical abuser carries deep feelings of inadequacy, usually due to being abused as a child. They compensate for their inferiority by gaining power and control over helpless, dependent people. Rape is less a sexual act for these men, than an act of power, control, degradation, and hostility. Because it was done to them, they instinctively know that they can hurt another most deeply by violating their sexual boundaries. Rape means overpowering another person's free will, forcibly taking away their right to say "no." In addition to power and control, the perpetrator is unconsciously seeking revenge for a variety of emotional crimes that have happened to him.
For many perpetrators, sex and violence are fused. In the group I belonged to, the perpetrators beat and raped the children. Often they focused their sexual attention on one victim at a time, believing that the child enjoyed the molestations, or that at least it would not hurt them very much. When the children of my former group finally filed suit against the organization, one of the plaintiffs explained on television that he was routinely raped by ten or fifteen different men at the school in India. On the same television show (ABC's 20/20), a young woman explained that they used to blindfold her before raping her so "it wouldn't hurt as much."
Physical threats and abuse are the tools that the perpetrator uses to convince himself of his potency. He transfers his own guilt and sense of responsibility onto the victim and feels good about himself. He may even see himself as the victim of evil children. Anything he does to them is justified in his mind. Perpetrators practice intricate patterns of coercive behavior called "grooming" to lure children into sexual situations and keep them quiet. Shifting blame to the victim makes the child feel responsible for the secrets. However, in the matter of incest, the adult is always one hundred percent responsible, no matter how innocent he looks, or how guilty the child feels.
A small percentage of perpetrators respond to therapy. However, the older they are, the less likely it is they will reform. Many perpetrators were scarred and emotionally disfigured as children and grow up character disordered. They may never regain the capacity for genuine empathy or remorse. While these aggressors look like normal citizens, the essential element of conscience will always be missing inside. Some may avoid molesting again if they stay away from children, but most will go on molesting children whenever they have the opportunity. Our society has yet to come to terms with this. Most perpetrators spend little time in jail, if they go to jail at all. Within religious institutions, child molesters are easily forgiven if they continue to function in other useful capacities. They will feel most welcome and undetected in dysfunctional cult groups.
http://surrealist.org/norimuster/handbook2.html |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 430
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 9:11 pm: |
|
Profile of the Conspirators
The only way child abuse can continue is if it is cloaked in secrecy. Thus, for abuse to continue, the setting must be filled with conspirators who look the other way. Most often in an incestuous family, the mother consciously or unconsciously is in collusion with the perpetrator. She acts as a silent partner to the abuse, saying nothing, and apparently noticing nothing.
There are two stages of conspiring, first, activities leading up to the rape, and second, the silent partner's response when the rape is revealed. The silent partner ignores signs that incest is taking place. In the case of an organization, the conspiracy is often shared among a group of people, often the close circle around an abusive guru. The people who know what's going on hide it, to make the guru look like a respected man who would never do anything like that. If abuse is revealed, conspirators are apathetic. They may forgive the perpetrator, the institution and themselves quite easily, believing that "forgive and forget" will heal everything. Instead of healing, these people actually leave the door open for repeat offending, simply because they remain ignorant and uninvolved. It's simply more comfortable for them to disavow any guilt for things that happened.
The silent partner or conspirator is often passive, dependent, and infantile in relation to authority figures. She may mean well, but feels overwhelmed with her own conflicts and problems. Losing the marriage my seem worse than tolerating abuse. Often, conspirators were abused in childhood and see abuse as an inevitable part of child rearing that they are powerless to control. They suffer from low self-esteem. Tolerating the abuse may simply be a continuation of their own childhood, where they witness the abuse of siblings or others in the family. Preoccupied with their own abuse issues, they maybe genuinely unavailable to help the people under their care. A mother or guardian may subtly communicate that she is helpless, so instead of expecting help, her dependents start to protect her.
The real work of the codependents involves withholding information that would upset the family or organization. Perhaps they think their silence is the best way to preserve the peace. Instead of standing up for children, they stay out of it because they are addicted to pleasing authority figures. The worst thing about codependency is that it allows psychopaths to rise to the top of a system. When dishonest men notice that other people will "act nice" and help them "save face," they see a green light to abuse and get away with it. Ironically, that's just what cult leaders want. Thus, innocent people who try to keep things quiet act in perfect harmony with the dishonest people to perpetuate abuse.
http://surrealist.org/norimuster/handbook2.html |
heather (heather)
Junior Member
Username: heather
Post Number: 42
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 12:44 am: |
|
RJ..please continue this thread.. My daughter was a victim at 4 yrs old. The church covered it and silenced me for a time. They convinced me I had broken some kind of code by not taking it through the right chain of command. I was silenced for a time, but that time has ended. Greater Grace always has and still is covering this abuse. I have called a child protective agency to report this. They want to interview my children. I have mixed feelings so I am asking God for help there. I would like to see more posts on what we can do to stop this from happening to others. |
plaid (plaid)
New member
Username: plaid
Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.91.59.248
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 4:17 am: |
|
I learned from growing up "in" TBS/GGWO that children were to be obedient at all costs. Many many times my teachers, youth pastors, others in leadership would tell me that God would always honor me if I obeyed without question, even if I thought that what I was being asked to do was wrong. The whole "delegated" authority thing.
I cried out for help many times about the abuse that was happening in my own family. There is NO WAY others were not aware of the abuse, we lived in one room in various dorms most of my life. I only remember one time that someone seemed to want to help, when my mother was beating me with a belt across the back, that a student from the dorm knocked on our room door and asked if everything was ok. Yet everyone constantly told me what a "spiritually amazing" woman my mother was. As I grew older, I heard Carl speak about women who missed a service because they were recovering from childbirth - how "off" they were. How parents trying to adjust to new parenthood were off for neglected the time consuming ministries so valuable to the church. How teenagers were just a bundle of rebellion, which was comparable to witchcraft and was a stoning offense. How secular counselors were wrong that depression, anxiety, etc had a physical base - it all could be cured if only the person let God into thier lives.
If I sound bitter, I am a bit. Looking back on my childhood, I think that any person with half a brain and one good eye could have seen that I was abused and had serious emotional and mental issues. It took me YEARS to even seek help, I would hear Carls voice in my head ranting about how evil those "humanist drs" were.
Thank God I finally started to get help, am have growm so far away from a child crying for help with no one to answer. Lenox was so isolated from any kind of scrutiny, I often wonder how many other children grew up hurting like I did. |
mercyreigns (mercyreigns)
Member
Username: mercyreigns
Post Number: 75
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.17.197.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 4:27 am: |
|
Plaid I am so sorry for what you went through and you are not alone. Everything you wrote is true and as parents there was a kind of spirit of fear surrounding us.
I know I always was fearful when I put my children first. Then I started to become more of a preacher instead of a mom. I was so fearful God would punish us or take one of us home early because we weren't lining up with what I thought I saw in other GG families.
By the grace and mercy of God my children, now grown, do not hate me and we have very close relationship.
And by the unbelievable grace of God my children love the Lord, have forgiven me and were wise to GG long before I was.
I am praying for you Plaid. We have 12 years of children who suffered greatly, wound up involved in drugs, married early, have babies, or just left all together and no longer believe.
It is a tragedy but God is aware and will rescue these precious souls abused at the hands of the Youth ministry, GG and GGca.
There is barely one even on staff in GG, pastors kids, missionary kids in GG that are walking purely with the Lord. They are disillusioned and hurting. Pray for them.
We can not, We dare not allow this to happen to another generation of GG kids. God have mercy and intervene.
God bless you dear one. |
bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
Intermediate Member
Username: bob_brinton
Post Number: 278
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.162.58
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 4:41 am: |
|
Heather and Plaid; Thank you for posting these things. Roberta has often been accused of making this stuff up. Real voices mean a lot; those with personal knowledge of particular abuse. I hope others also will post out of their own experience. It would be enormous if an actual abuser or two would come out and tell how the system helped cover up their sins. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 442
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 5:21 am: |
|
Heather
First let me say that my heart breaks for your daughter and the situation you are all in. May I also say that the answer to your questions are not easy to write. But it is necessary to to do, so I will. Please know that I am no expert in this field. I have read everything I can find, I have spoken to victims and have known perpetrators. I was also a beaten child, and once was a member of this mind control cult known as GGWO as an adult. My answers to you come from these experiences, much study, and hours of prayer.
Sadly parents who have been "sold out" committed cult members have virtually offered up their children to these predators. Because we as adults were mesmerized by Carl's lies we left ourselves unprotected against spiritual rape, and our unprotected children open to sexual rape.
Hard to hear, I know. This is not to lay the blame at anyone's feet except the cult. Hear me, for this is vital: the adults/parents are manipulated into trusting the leaders, taught obedience, taught reverence, were lulled into believing the best about these men, lulled into that safety net that lures us to beleve that nothing bad can happen...we are God's elect, we are reciepients of great teaching, safe against the sin that abounds in the world.
While we are reveling in a false sense of security, these evil men are not only manipulating our mind and spirit, they are stealing our money, our God, our common sense AND our children.
It is for a parent to protect his child. But in the cult, we are manipulated into letting down our natural parental guard in too many cases...and the door swings wide open for them to steal our child's innocent heart, mind and body...with the same lies they fed us.
We taught our kids not to talk to strangers...in cultspeak: "be afraifd of the world outside, we are not evil, they are, don't let your kid watch televison, today's music is satanic, public school cannot teach your child like our Christian school can etc etc etc"
We truly belieevd this because it made sense to our already indoctrinated minds: world=evil, GGWO= the best there is.
We didn't always retain complete control over our kids. It seemed okay...after all, they were with ministry people weren't they? It was right, it was good. We felt good about believeing we were raising our kids to be godly and spiritual and keeping them away from the street wise litle monsters in the public schools, and they were doing bus ministry and youth group things. How could anything go wrong.
How? We didn't tell the kids that the people we taught them to obey and believe could also be evil. We were tricked into believeing that these men could be trusted with our most precious gifts from God. And these men used us and stole our children. Those that are pedophiles touched our kids with thier rotten hands and raped them, threatened them and the kids are trapped. No choice, no voice and trapped because these men of God are evil.
How can we prevent this from happening to more children?
We need to recognize that this organization is NOT OF GOD as long as this horror continues. They know you know...they already know this evil goes on. They have known for decades. They have known that there have been teachers in the day school who were molesting kids. They sent one molestor away...to a branch ministry and told no one he was a rapist. They know about the man I spoke of who had raped a child in his own family...he was sent to bible school in Lenox to get right...did he molest anyone there? I don't know. But he doesn't belong still working with the kids at Camp Life or with the youth ministry at all. But he is there, with the awareness of the leaders.
I have been warned that I will regret it if I keep talking about this subject. I also know that it makes people uncomfortable to think they may have through no fault of their own left their children unprotected and used by evil men. But it must be said,it must be exposed, and the kids need to know we care. They need to know we haven't forgotten them, that we are trying to make it stop. So, I have said what I have said with their needs in mind. The kids in pain are more important than this cult, they are more important than anything.
There are many people who post to FacNet that have more information than I do I am sure. But the key to all of this is to regain control over our own children and never blindly trust anyone who has care over them. Be wary, be awake, believe them if they tell you something is wrong. Be aware at all times of who they are with.
The best way to prottect your kids if you love them is to pack up your children and RUN. Get out while you can. Get free from the lies, put distance between you and the cult so the fog will lift. Then, once your common sense returns, and it will if you get out...I promise you eventually you will begin to see that indeed the emperor really IS naked and has no new clothes at all. Teach your children about good touch/bad touch, teach them that all adults are capable of being bad, teach them the truth about the world...it is not ALL evil any more than a church is ALL good. Advocate for them as much as you can, with all the force of God that is in you.
God will provide whatever you need to run. I promise you that he loves these kids and wants them to be free. The child who is being raped and manipulated into silence suffers the torments of hell and needs you. These kids need all of us to care.
Roberta
*****************
How can you tell if your child has been sexually abused?
There's no easy way to tell if a child has been sexually abused. Some children may show changes in behaviour or emotional symptoms.
Children who have been, or are being, abused will often be very confused and uncertain about what to do and who to tell. Some children may not realise that what has been done to them is abuse.
What to look for:
If your child does any of the following, you may suspect that sexual abuse has occured.
Brings up the subject of sexual abuse or drops hints, possibly testing your reaction.
Mentions that an adult has asked her to keep a secret.
Is secretive about relationships with older children or adults.
Shows sexually explicit behaviour or uses sexual language inappropriate for her age.
Seems very withdrawn or depressed for no obvious reason.
Has physical complaints that have no obvious explanation, for example soreness or redness in the genital area.
Starts bedwetting again or has very disturbed sleep.
Refuses to go to school or has a sudden drop in her work.
Behaves very aggressively.
Harms herself.
Becomes reluctant to be with particular adults, or go to activities she previously enjoyed.
Seems very clingy.
Tries to avoid being left alone with an adult in the family.
Shows fear of an adult or older child.
Remember though, that many other things can cause these symptoms, so it's important not to panic. If you're genuinely concerned, seek professional help.
Why do some children not tell?
Abusers are likely to go to great lengths to keep their behaviour secret
Abusers are likely to go to great lengths to keep their behaviour secret. They may use threats to the child, or to other family members, if the child tells. They also play on her guilt, and may persuade them it was her fault, and that she wanted it to happen. Some abusers may pretend that abuse is normal and a way of showing love in families.
If your child tells you they have been abused
If your child tells you that she's been abused, you'll probably feel devastated but it's important to:
Believe your child - children almost never lie about abuse.
Let your child talk - give her as much encouragement as possible to talk about it with you, but don't force her to give details if she doesn't want to.
Make it clear the abuser is to blame - let your child know the abuse is NOT her fault.
Stress that she's done the right thing by telling you - reassure her constantly that telling you was the best thing she could do, and that she's safe now.
Get professional help to deal with the situation - call the police, or talk to your GP, ER or social services.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/your_kids/safety_sexual.shtml |
maria_t (maria_t)
Intermediate Member
Username: maria_t
Post Number: 106
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.16.22.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 6:24 am: |
|
Thanks Roberta for re-opening this thread. As a pediatric nurse I too was hot on the topic of sexual abuse/assult with the children I took care of private duty. As a nurse we are morally and legally responsible to report any suspicious activity in that area, we are to call the police even if the parent doesn't want them called. I don't know what the nursing laws are in the other states, I can just tell you what they are here in MD.
Keep up the thread. Its very informative. You have done a lot of research and it shows, and anybody on here can see your heart in this.
Maria |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 449
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 11:45 am: |
|
Then if it happened and was covered up, it can still be exposed and reported to authorities.
The fact is that this is difficult to get people to do. Of course it is a gut wrenching situation, but unless these incidents are reported nothing will stop. Other children will suffer.
I have been praying for years that someday someone will be brave enough to go through the process and expose the predators that destroy our kids. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 452
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 1:56 pm: |
|
God be praised. Doris, if I can be in any way of help...know that this will be in my constant prayers. Seriously.
Thank you God for the faithful souls in DE who seek your heart and face, who do not falter in the search for truth and that band together in these times of upheaveal for the sake of Christ and His people. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 462
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 8:56 pm: |
|
Doris...you've got mail. |
muskyrose (muskyrose)
New member
Username: muskyrose
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.12.117.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 8:54 am: |
|
Plaid, My parents move to the Lenox campus when TBS first arrived on Kemble St. (my dad was the first cook there. My youngest brother was with them at the time. I was married and we were in the So Berwick ministry as well as assisting in a few other branch ministeries. My oldest brother was also living on the campus with his wife.
The bone of contention carl and dan lewis had with my folks at the time was, they refused to put my teenage brother in the mens dorm. Even though all the "leaders" marked my brother as rebellious and wild my parents refused to follow the disipline instructions of carl. They kept my brother close to them even in the small cramped quarters. They refused to give him up and refused to punnish him the way those in power thought he should be punnished.
I think their unwillingness to obey carls mandates was part of their undoing, so to speak. It didn't take long for them to be fired (even thought they took their money) Unfortunately those years they spent in tbs took a toll on my brother. You can see it in his life today. Although he wont admit it because he never talks about it. Perhaps one day I will be able to sit down with him and get him to open up about how he felt and maybe then some healing will be able to take place. Until then all I can do is pray for him and his family.
I said all this to say that I understand what you meant. I'm glad you were able to overcome all of that garbage. Good for you!
<>>>>>>>>>>>-------B. |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
New member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 10:01 am: |
|
B,
You mean they wanted to put your brother in the "West Campus Teen Block?" That would have been really great for him, lots of young men got really "weird" (sorry for the retro word) there.
Ralph |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
New member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 11:02 am: |
|
I believe this quote is an indictment against all who would misuse a child.
“The test of morality of a society is what it does for its children." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
I can truthfully say that had anyone molested my daughter I would most likely have gone to prison, because I would have taken away their reproductive ability.
My heart goes out to those who were abused, my sisters and I were abused growing up. PLease allow me to re-iterate what was posted earlier, "It is in no way your fault!"
You also have great worth.
But let me say this, forgive, but DO NOT forget! Prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. But do forgive. It is called the law of reaping and sowing.
So victims, speak up! Forgive but prosecute! Even if someone "bought your silence," where does it say that is right that is to preclude breaking teh law?
I have worked with victims and perps (perverts) for years. The victims take years to recover, and the perps NEVER recover if it is covered up! Only if they are made accountable.
God bless you,
Ralph |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 466
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 11:27 am: |
|
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT
I say this to anyone who is a victim:
It is NOT your first responsibility to forgive. Someday it may come, this forgiveness, once you have worked through the damage to your spirit. Until then, do not let anyone tell you that it is up to you to forgive, prosecute or anything else.
I would encourage you to seek help from a professional...call 911, tell a cop, go to the emergency room, tell your parents, or tell someone you trust. I know trusting is hard, but telling someone is the first step to making this person stop violating you.
You are more improtant than this awful person hurting you. YOU are more important than the friendship your parents may have with this person. YOU are more important than whatever GGWO says is right for you to do. YOU are more important than anything and everything. Help us help you. Tell someone...call the cops, call a rape crisis counseling center...did this guy tell you that no one would believbe you? HE's LYING!!!!
Don't worry, no one is going to make you forgive anybody till God makes you healthy and ready. We just want this pain you've been having to take STOP.
You know I love you. You know I care and always will. You know that you can email me and I will give you the phone numbers of people who know how to help you. All you gotta do is emal me and I will move heaven and earth to find somebody in your area that can help you.
I Will Always Care
http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=39
srfern@verizon.net
Roberta |
jeannie (jeannie)
Intermediate Member
Username: jeannie
Post Number: 161
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.117.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 11:47 am: |
|
Ralph,
You are absolutely dead-on!
“The test of morality of a society is what it does for its children." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
We must all come to terms with what our "TBS/GG society" did to our children. Spiritual abuse begets abuse in every form, evil begets evil. It is ugly to look at but it occurred. The victims remain silenced, defenseless in fear and shame. We all know now adult children who were abused and still live in that fear and shame.
I personally want to walk away from the ugliness of this experience. I know I am recovering and for myself personally it would benefit me to walk away. BUT I CANNOT.. The Spirit continues to compell me to NOT walk away. He has compelled most of us here to speak. Why is that? I believe the Lord desires to build a strong foundation for the abused to come forward and heal. They cannot without support of those stronger. Remember how hard it was to even post the first time, I was gripped with fear the first time I hit the send button. I am not afraid anymore! They hold no power over me, but the evil mechanisms of this system do hold power over many. I want us to be so strong, so compelled that the power of Jesus Christ overcomes the ugly underbelly of abuse. God is in this.. this is His work and His exposing. He will not be mocked. |
minutus (minutus)
Intermediate Member
Username: minutus
Post Number: 199
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 207.156.7.250
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 11:57 am: |
|
"I personally want to walk away from the ugliness of this experience. I know I am recovering and for myself personally it would benefit me to walk away. BUT I CANNOT."
Thank you for loving enough to stand and be heard, Jeannie. |
jeannie (jeannie)
Intermediate Member
Username: jeannie
Post Number: 162
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.117.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 1:14 pm: |
|
Thanks Dave.. and thanks for the email and the wonderful reminder of Russia.
Isn't that why we are all here? We love our brethren enough to wage war against those that have hurt them?
I heard from someone recently who in conversation with an elder stated that we wanted an apology. This is not at all about apologies. If no one from GGWO ever apologized for slandering me and family I would not care. And by the way, I have recently heard that our family continues to be slandered in the most vile way from the lips of current leaders. If I wanted an apology then I would hire a lawyer and get my apology. I want this abusive group to stop abusing and if they cannot, if the lies and abuse continue then I want them exposed for the lying abusers they are. These guys need to stop pussy-footing around, mincing words and REPENT for pete sake's! If they are really God's children it is not that hard. But if they continue to act like children of the Father of All Lies then they will reap what they have sown. God will not be mocked. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 467
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 1:38 pm: |
|
Children are marginalized in the GGWO society. marginalized and used by the church to portray a moral superiority on the surface that doesn't translate into the kid's experience.
Jeannie, you are right. We all know people who are now adults who say they were violated sexually by people at GG, and it was covered up.
When GG covers sin it is the victim who suffers and suffers doubly. We need to talk about it, inform parents, provide a place for the victims to find safety.
**************
Last week I was contacted by someone who told me that the new threat to one child who contacted me awhile ago,is that if the kid told anyone about the abuse, the abuser would come after me.
**OPEN NOTICE TO THE SOB WHO MADE THIS THREAT**
YOU CANNOT THREATEN ME INTO SILENCE. MAYBE YOU CAN TERRORIZE THE KIDS BUT I AM NOT AFRAID OF YOU. YOU ARE A LOW PIECE OF DUNG, AND YOU WILL BE CAUGHT AND PUNISHED. TERRORIZING CHILDREN TO BETTER ABUSE THEM IS THE LOWEST OF THE LOW. HOW DARE YOU THREATEN TO HURT ME SO YOU CAN SEXUALLY ASSAULT A CHILD AND SCARE HER INTO SILENCE.
Kids...he can do NOTHING AT ALL to me believe me. He will be sorry if he EVER tries anything. But he won't. He's just saying anything he thinks you'll believe so you won't make that phone call. I will be just fine, I can promise you that.
I have posted this here so there will be no mistaking my meaning and that perhaps people who don't want to believe this battle exists for the hearts, minds, soul and bodies of our kids will open their eyes. |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Junior Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 26
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 2:04 pm: |
|
Roberta,
YOU ARE (forgive this use of GGWO/TBS vernacular) AWESOME!!! Or, in todays vennacular, YOU ROCK GIRL!!!
And. if any one does threaten you, call on old Uncle Ralph, I can still bust a few chops!
Love ya,
Ralph |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 468
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 2:09 pm: |
|
Thanks Ralph...*s*...I'll call if I need to! |
lee (lee)
Intermediate Member
Username: lee
Post Number: 143
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.96.56.161
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 2:12 pm: |
|
There is nothing an abuser can do but make idle threats........if he does anything at all, he jeopardizes his own anonymity. He's just getting scared that he'll be found out.
He's right, he will be, if not soon, then sometime. It will forever hang over his head. It will get heavier and heavier. He will wish it could all be over.
These type people have a sense about when its going to be exposed. Then they get verbal......it won't work. Someone will come forward. Someone will speak up. |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Junior Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 2:36 pm: |
|
Lee,
Is Pastor Dorsy still with you guys? Or has he graduated to heaven?
Please ask your husband if he would please EMail me.
God bless,
Ralph |
lee (lee)
Intermediate Member
Username: lee
Post Number: 144
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.96.56.161
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 2:48 pm: |
|
The Dorsey's are very well. Bill is in his early 80's and has just stopped driving. He has up to this point been at the church every morning at 5 to pray! He has slowed considerably, but still one of the most enjoyable people to be around.
Did you post an email? |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Junior Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 3:38 pm: |
|
Lee,
Yes, but here it is anyway.
<lifeafterggwotbs@yahoo.com>
I am not surprised to hear he is at the Church every morning at five. DOes he still pray his sax?
Ralph |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 469
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 3:41 pm: |
|
Child Sexual Abuse
A National Center for PTSD Fact Sheet
Julia Whealin, Ph.D.
Child sexual abuse includes a wide range of sexual behaviors that take place between a child and an older person. These sexual behaviors are intended to erotically arouse the older person, generally without consideration for the reactions or choices of the child and without consideration for the effects of the behavior upon the child. Behaviors that are sexually abusive often involve bodily contact, such as in the case of sexual kissing, touching, fondling of genitals, and oral, anal, or vaginal intercourse. However, behaviors may be sexually abusive even if they don't involve contact, such as in the case of genital exposure ("flashing"), verbal pressure for sex, and sexual exploitation for purposes of prostitution or pornography.
Who are the perpetrators of child sexual abuse?
Legal definitions of what constitutes child sexual abuse usually require that the perpetrator be older than the victim. For example, in some states perpetrators must be at least five years older than their victims for the behavior to be considered child sexual abuse.
Most often, sexual abusers know the child they abuse but are not relatives. In fact, about 60% of perpetrators are nonrelative acquaintances, such as a friend of the family, babysitter, or neighbor.
About 30% of those who sexually abuse children are relatives of the child, such as fathers, uncles, or cousins.
Strangers are perpetrators in about 10% of child sexual abuse cases.
Men are found to be perpetrators in most cases, regardless of whether the victim is a boy or a girl. However, women are found to be perpetrators in about 14% of cases reported against boys and about 6% of cases reported against girls.
Child pornographers and other perpetrators who are strangers now also make contact with children using the Internet.
How does one know if a child has been sexually abused?
Researchers estimate that, in our country, about 10% of boys and 25% of girls are sexually abused.
Unfortunately, there are often no obvious signs that a child has been sexually abused. Because sexual abuse often occurs in private, and because it often does not result in physical evidence, child sexual abuse can be difficult to detect.
There is not a "child sexual abuse syndrome," or any symptom that a majority of sexually abused children exhibit.
What are some symptoms sexually abused children exhibit?
Some children may show symptoms of PTSD, including agitated behavior, frightening dreams, and repetitive play in which aspects of the abuse are expressed.
Because of their sexual abuse, children may show sexual behavior or seductiveness that is inappropriate for their age.
As a result of abuse, children, especially boys, tend to "act out" with behavior problems, such as cruelty to others and running away.
Other children "act in" by becoming depressed or by withdrawing from friends or family.
Sometimes children may try to injure themselves or attempt suicide.
What can parents and caretakers do to help keep children safe?
Talk to your children about the difference between good touch and bad touch. Tell the child that if someone tries to touch his or her body and do things that make the child feel uncomfortable, he or she should say NO to the person and tell you about it right away.
Let children know that they have the right to forbid others to touch their bodies in a bad way. Let them know that respect does not always mean doing what those in authority tell them to do. Do not tell them to do EVERYTHING the babysitter or group leader tells them to do.
Alert your children that perpetrators may use the Internet, and monitor your children's access to online websites.
Most importantly, provide a safe, caring environment so children feel able to talk freely about sexual abuse.
What should parents and caretakers do if they suspect abuse?
If a child says she or he has been abused, try to remain calm.
Reassure the child that what has happened is not his or her fault.
Seek a medical examination and psychological consultation immediately.
Know that children can recover from sexual abuse, particularly if they have the support of a caring, available parent.
Get help yourself. It is often very painful to acknowledge that your child has been sexually exploited. Parents can harm children further if they inappropriately minimize the abuse or if they harbor irrational fears related to the abuse. Therapy can help caretakers deal with their own feelings about the abuse so that they are able to provide support to their children.
What are the possible long-term effects of child sexual abuse?
If child sexual abuse is not effectively treated, long-term symptoms may persist into adulthood. These may include:
PTSD and/or anxiety
Depression and thoughts of suicide
Sexual anxiety and disorders
Poor body image and low self-esteem
The use of unhealthy behaviors, such as alcohol abuse, drug abuse, self-mutilation, or bingeing and purging, to help mask painful emotions related to the abuse
If you were abused as a child and suffer from any of these symptoms, it may help you to get help from a mental-health professional who has expertise in working with people who have been sexually abused.
Recommended Books That Address Child Sexual Abuse
Allies in Healing: When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused As a Child, a Support Book by Laura Davis. (1991). Harperperennial Library; ISBN 0060968834
The Courage to Heal: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis. (1994). Harperperennial Library; ISBN 0060950668
Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence from Domestic Abuse to Political Terror by Judith Herman. (1997). Basic Books; ISBN 0465087302.
Shattered Assumptions: Toward a New Psychology of Trauma by Ronnie Janoff-Bulman. (1992). The Free Press; ISBN 0029160154
Victims No Longer: Men Recovering from Incest and Other Sexual Child Abuse by Mike Lew, Foreword by Ellen Bass. (1990). HarperCollins; ISBN 0060973005
Wounded Boys Heroic Men: A Man's Guide to Recovering from Child Abuse by Danial Jay Sonkin and Lenore E. A. Walker. (1998). Adams Media Corporations; ISBN 1580620108
Selected References:
Ackerman, P. T., Newton, J. E.O., McPherson, W. B., Jones, J. G., & Dykman, R. A. (1998). Prevalence of post traumatic stress disorder and other psychiatric diagnoses in three groups of abused children (sexual, physical, and both). Child Abuse & Neglect, 22, 759-774.
Boney-McCoy, S. & Finkelhor, D. (1996). Is youth victimization related to trauma symptoms and depression after controlling for prior symptoms and family relationships? A longitudinal, prospective study. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 64, 1406-1416.
Collings, S. J. (1995). The long-term effects of contact and noncontact forms of child sexual abuse in a sample of university men. Child Abuse and Neglect, 19, 1-6.
Jumper, S. (1995). A meta-analysis of the relationship of child sexual abuse to adult psychological adjustment. Child Abuse and Neglect, 19, 715-728.
Kendall-Tackett, K. A., Williams, L. M., & Finkelhor, D. (1993). Impact of sexual abuse on children: A review and synthesis of recent empirical studies. Psychological Bulletin, 113, 164-180.
Neumann, D. A., Houskamp, B. M., Pollock, V. E., & Briere, J. (1996). The long-term sequelae of childhood sexual abuse in women: A meta-analytic review. Child Maltreatment, 1, 6-16. |
lee (lee)
Intermediate Member
Username: lee
Post Number: 145
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.96.56.161
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 4:04 pm: |
|
No Ralph, he doesn't play anymore. Neither does he play tennis! He really is an old man. A righteous, humble, sweet old man, that everyone esteems highly and loves to pieces. I love to watch him with his grandchildren.....the girls especially love to perform for him and of course he adores them!
I'll pass the addy on to Jack. |
plaid (plaid)
New member
Username: plaid
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.91.59.248
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 5:31 pm: |
|
One of the things that I am always reinforcing to my girls is that NO ONE CAN DO ANYTHING TO MOMMY AND DADDY. I know this is pretty simplisitic, but I am trying to give them the message that if anyone says they will hurt us, send us to jail, etc for telling, that this is NOT true. ( I also figure that the chances I have of going to jail for something I do wrong is pretty slim, I don't have much time for lawbreaking  )
We talk frequenly about doing things that make us feel "ikcy" and our private parts, how our bodies are special and private, keeping our hands to ourselves, how just because someone is a grown up doesn't mean my girls have to do what they say, etc.
I have a seven year old who is very outspoken and I am so glad. She is a far cry from the love starved little girl I was in Lenox, I was a prime target for sickos - not that it was my fault AT ALL but there are types of children who are targeted by thise creeps.
She has seen me be an advocate for her and her sister many times.
I am also very watchful. My children are not just free to wander around anywhere like I was as a child. I know where they are, who they are with (if they are not with me) and what is happening. These are things that so called "worldly" parents have taught me. It's amazing how there are beautiful, godly, caring people outside of GGWO. Growing up, I had the idea everyone out here was an alcoholic/drug abuser/wicked evil person looking to attack the church. What a sad way to grow up. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 474
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 11:38 pm: |
|
plaid
Sounds like you learned a lot of good stuff and your kids are very belssed to have such a terrific mother. God bless you, girl. I love hearing how kids from this cult grew to be strong adults who got themselves free, took on some real world common sense and made themselves and their kids successful people.
Hearing this makes me want to fight even harder to get the kids free from their parent's folly of following Carl, and who are left vulnerable prey for the abusers.
Thanks so much for posting here. I hope you and the kids have a good Christmas. Is your husband still in Iraq? I pray for him every day, and for you and the kids, for I am guessing it isn't always easy. But I just know God will keep him safe and he'll be home with a great big grin before you know it.
Blessings and Happy Christmas, plaid...
RJ |
plaid (plaid)
New member
Username: plaid
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.91.59.248
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 1:07 am: |
|
He's still there, but may be home mid January. He was thankfully not in that dining tent that was bombed, but sadly so many were hurt and killed. I'm in that wierd place - I'm so grateful that my husband is safe, and so sad for all the wives who are getting the worst news this week.
Thank you for your prayers and encouragement.
And I don't think I am a "terrific" mother, just yesterday I heard I was the "meanest mom in the world!!!!"  |
anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)
New member
Username: anon_for_ever
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 131.207.157.217
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 4:29 am: |
|
I remember one Baltimore convention in the beginning of the nineties. Somebody wanted to introduce us to a nice family out in the parking lot. The alarmed looking children were sitting in the back seat of a van and staring at us strangers. The father was speaking about spanking already at our first encounter. Later that week we saw the same family in the international village or whatever the restaurant area was called. One of the boys had disappeared in the crowd. Finally they found him and the father screamed at him (in our presence), though the boy looked like he had already been crying in horror because he had lost touch to his mother. Probably it wasn’t even his fault.
We chatted but the boy was clearly waiting for his punishment to come. The big daddy looked at us in a proud manner and made a show of his excellent parenting methods by pulling this frightened kid behind the fence and giving him a good spanking. He was very businesslike; this form of discipline seemed to be inevitable without any alternatives.
In my country spanking is prohibited by law but there are many good Christians (!) that resist this commandment. Anyway I don’t want to be self righteous here; I’ve lost temper with my kids sooo many times. All I want to say is that spanking for its own sake should not be a doctrine. |
plaid (plaid)
New member
Username: plaid
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.91.59.248
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 2:44 pm: |
|
Anon, sadly there are some very scary "movements" that call themselves "christian" in this country that really ecourage parents to abuse their children - all in the name of softening thier hearts to God. One really sad example is this woman called Thalia Moser, who runs a website called "atriptothewoodshed" and it is truly frightening.
Aside from the damage these parents are doing thier children emotionally, how can they expect thier children to come to God when all they know is fear in His name? |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Intermediate Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 485
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 12:57 am: |
|
D.Alexander you posted on another thread:
"I have no interest in justifying myself."
Then stop doing so, and stop doing so here. Haven't you caught on? We don't trust you, you have nothing to add to our walk with God, you have no clue as to what we are about and we don't appreciate your ridiculously obvious efforts to recruit the wounded from this soul eating cult we have left to join yours.
No one gives a rats ass about you, your beliefs, your needs for followers, your phoney sincerity etc etc. Many of these people are victims, they need NOT to be pressured into listening to a double talking charletan like you.
You have been exposed for the fool you are by the wise men and women of God on this board. If you contnue to insist upon flaunting your lies and bullshit here, I will contact FactNet and ask that you be removed.
I have received a number of emails from young people who are very confused and more than a little frightened by your continued pressure here. Sell your line of good elsewhere.
I will NOT put up with you possibly hurting the people who look to this board about Greater Grace for help and finding your lies which confuse and are NOT what these people need.
You have been warned. I am not going to let you hurt these kids, do you hear me? They have been through hell, and you are making things worse.
I cannot let you hurt them. Stop...stop now. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Advanced Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 594
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 10:22 pm: |
|
It seems the tension in Baltimore among the kids is getting worse. I have heard from 4 kids this week who are confused about what is going on and are scared that the adults seem rattled. They feel that "something is going to fall apart bigtime" as one kid put it.
Please will you pray for the children and teens, particularly now?It is imperative that they do nothing to hurt themselves...cutting is a big problem with some of them.
Thnks.
RJ |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Advanced Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 595
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2005 - 10:46 pm: |
|
Message to the kids
Look, I know some of you are reading FN and have some kind of sense that stuff is happening. I don't know all the details, nobody does. But I do know one thing for sure:
God loves you and will not ever leave your side no matter what you think may be happening.
All of us know that some of you are having a rough time, that you are not happy and that you feel like you can't tell anyone, trust anyone or turn to anyone. But that isn't completely true.
You know I seldom preach junk at you. I don't believe in telling someone everything is going to be alright when I can't be sure. Things may get wierder where you are for awhile. I don't have a crystal ball and I am not all knowing...but know this: You have an army of people out here praying for you, that you will be safe, that you will find God's love even greater than before when the smoke clears.
You are very very precious people to me and to everyone on FN. You know that. Please try to remember that even though we are not right there in person we carry you in our hearts every bit as much as God has you in the palm of his hand.
Also...and this is vital...cutting cannot soothe your pain. It cannot take away the sting of hate, it cannot make you feel nothing. I know you are convinced that it will...but we both know after all these months that it only can make it worse.
Throw down the blade and throw yourself into the arms of a friend, make your mouth say the words outloud to a counselor...you have all the numbers I gave you...use them.
Enough blood has been shed, enough self loathing has been done. Please don't hurt yourself tonight. Please call those numbers. Please call a hotline, call 911, call a friend until those critical moments pass.
I said I wouldn't post these things to the board anymore but I know you are reading this. I know you are waiting for something to happen. I know you are wishing that the pain was gone...
Remember what I said about the waiting? Remember what that counselor said? She was right. You know she was right.
You are in my prayers tonight. I so understand what you are trying to escape from. But curl up now in God's palm...lean all your body weight on Him, all the heaviness of your hate all the fear all the powerlessness...he is big enough and gentle enough to cradle you until the moment of temptation to cut passes and beyond. You know it works, you know he's bigger than your pain and he will never ever give up on you...not tonight, not tomorrow or a century of tomorrows.
Remember I love you and that you promised always to call your counselor when this happens.
I am going to ask that all those that post on FactNet will pray also for you. I will ask that they not post to you, just pray. You are worth it, child.
RJ |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Advanced Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 614
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2005 - 10:03 pm: |
|
Your brother told me you didn't cut and you did call your counselor. I was so glad to hear it.
Well...since you guys are reading factnet everyday I am going to start posting here to you again. But I will warn you...there will be those who won't like it that I am writing to you. You may hear bad things about me, factnet, others who post here....whatever! I am telling you to go ahead and just ignore it. No need to get too bent outta shape about it, cuz it's going to happen, so ignore it as best you can.
Now...there seems to be a lot of whispering behind the scenes at school, at church, with your other friends and stuff, right? That's because there are a lot of upset people in the church now. This happens and it isn't the end of the world, but it may herald some changes....so be prepared.
You likely will feel powerless when it happens, because no one will care much if you like the changes or not, because you're kids. So, you'll have to decide for yourself how you plan to handle it.
You have options good and bad...
accept, and deal with it.
fight it and piss people off
accept the basics, until you can get out
hide your feelings and let them eat you up
hurt yourself...just don't ok?
the usual.
Remember when we talked about journals? This might be a good time to get one and write down how you feel about everything. Sometimes writing it down is like pouring it out of yourself, so it doesn get all jumbled up inside and make you want to scream. I keep a journal and I swear it carries all my secrets, and thoughts good and bad so that they can't twist me up inside.
Think about it? And remember something...God isn't making the bad things happen. People are. God is the one who is always big enough to lean on, to turn to, to depend on. He knows there are some really awful people in and out of churches, and he knows what it feels like to be powerless...you can tell him anything and everything...do it. Tell Him, write it to him in your journal, but even if you don't...he's not going to leave you.
Me either.
Nite.
Roberta |
abi (abi)
New member
Username: abi
Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.174.202.131
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
|
Was anyone here present in S.Berwick during the years 1980-1987? I was a child member of TBS at the time. I did not live in the church- but I went to school at the affiliated Seacoast Christian Academy My family moved the West coast during the Baltimore scandal (in 1988?) but they were no less twisted for it. Not long afterwards I ran away, I was on the streets for a while and eventually was made a ward of the state. Legally I am an orphan, I have been fending for myself ever since. There were a lot of dark and disturbing things (namely sexual and physical abuse) that happened to me in those years, but I have a lot of unanswered questions since there has been no one to help me patch together my fragmented past. I am in shock that I found this web site! (I guess I was finally ready to look- life is stable and good now) Does anyone from that era perhaps remember the Coffmans? Friends of the wealthier and more prominent members, the Hills: David, Antoinette, & Buff. Who else? Well, I remember Nancy & Nancy (Alquist and Brown) singing their saccharine duets for service. To pass the time I used to mark in a bible how many times Pastor Brown would say, "Oh, Sweet Jesus!", in a sermon- it was always a lot. I remember the Waldens, and Mountain Mike who died mysteriously- I went to school with his son Shawn Fletcher...their laundry mat used to be right across the street.
Any other survivors out there? |
lee (lee)
Intermediate Member
Username: lee
Post Number: 205
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.96.56.161
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 10:55 am: |
|
Welcome to FN Abi. I'm sure you'll connect with other survivors. There are alot of us out here. We weren't in your area at that time.
I do remember P Brown saying "Oh, Sweet Jesus" though!
We already have over 2' of snow here in Boston. We'll be in for days! Maybe others will join us. |
jeannie (jeannie)
Intermediate Member
Username: jeannie
Post Number: 251
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.117.12
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
|
Abi,
I wasn't in S.Berwick but I do know of 2nd generationer's who have had some similar experiences. I don't want you go away and feeling like your voice isn't being heard. On the forum it can take some time for the response back. Don't give up. Someone will connect with you from S.Berwick. It might be help to read other threads here in the archives. It will give you a sense of not being alone in your experience. And you will find people on this forum are very supportive and will help you process all this. We also can give you names of professionals who offer individual counseling.
It is not per chance you found this forum. There is a sense of sanctuary and healing found with bringing things of the past and dealing with it openly and with a supportive community.
We will be praying for you, Abi... |
abi (abi)
New member
Username: abi
Post Number: 8
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 67.174.202.131
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 3:01 pm: |
|
Thank you so much for your respones... I am completely overwhelmed! Tears are in my eyes as I write this because this is probably the closest thing to a family reunion that I could have. One women from S. Berwick who at least knew my parents, if not me, has already written me back. Thank you for being here, for your prayers and your support. I am glad that when I was ready I was able to 'not by chance' stumble across this site.
I live on the other side of the country now and have been working with a very wonderful therapist for a number of years here. Although until yesterday eve. I could never bring myself to talk very much about the past. All of the sudden emotions came tumbling out of me, I called her and left a message telling her that I was ready to talk to her about this now, and then very shortly after that I got online to try one of my usually dead-end google searches on TBS. Instead I found this site. What a lot to take in.
Thank you again for your support,
Abi |
jeannie (jeannie)
Intermediate Member
Username: jeannie
Post Number: 253
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.117.12
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
|
Abi,
You will find there quite a few S.Berwick people on the forum. You will also find the shared experience here. Though we all experienced different types and degrees of abuse passing through TBS/GGWO, we have a common shared experience, unique only to us. And very hard to explain to others. I am glad to hear you have a great therapist. I am sure you will also find answers, support and solace through connections found here. God Bless You, Abi! |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Advanced Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 741
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99
| | Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
|
Abi
I am glad to hear that you are healing. There have been so many people abused by the various incarnations of TBS, and it is my prayer everyday that those who were and are dealing with physical, spiritual and sexual abuse will find the path to peace.
I was not in South Berwick during those years, but I was in TBS then, first in Rumford Maine, then in Lenox. It was a terrible period of time...so many changes, so many people damaged, so many lies.
I am what you might call an unofficial advocate for the young people who read this board who are now or have been sexually abused in this cult. I urge them to seek help as you have done...I will add you to my prayers Abi, and I know the kids who read this will too. They care a lot about those adults who have suffered as they have done, and I know they will "bang hard on God's door" as they put it, for you.
If you ever need an ear, a friend, someone to just listen my name is Roberta and my email is
srfern@verizon.net
I am not a trained counselor, but I care and am here if ever...
God Bless You
RJ |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Intermediate Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 238
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
|
Roberta - in light of our "conversation" this needed to be "bumped up" again. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Advanced Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 831
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.154.97
| | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
|
God bless you Ralph *hug* |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Intermediate Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 246
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 10:22 am: |
|
****BUMP****
Roberta - please email me <lifeafterggwotbs@yahoo.com>
Thanks,
Ralph
1Cor 15:10 |
samueljackson (samueljackson)
New member
Username: samueljackson
Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 85.64.150.252
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
|
This is interesting info Heather. I have not really thought about chile abusein the org. I have notice that some of the youth workers thouching children in inappropriate manor. I wonder if your real name is heather. Cause I went to school with a some chldren whos mothers name is Heather. I am soorry for what happened. I hope you will be healed. I wish I know more info cause my children have been in the youth group. Is there anything I should be carefull of. I know for a fact that last convt. a teenager was raped by a teen boy on campus. It makes you wonder how safe the children really are.} |
lee (lee)
Intermediate Member
Username: lee
Post Number: 265
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.60.213.249
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
|
Did you report that Sam?
sorry....Samuel! |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Intermediate Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 308
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 70.22.74.169
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
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This "bumps" for you Roberta. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Advanced Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 869
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.154.97
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
|
I Will Always Care
http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=39&st=15
You can find me here, kids. |
boddah (boddah)
Intermediate Member
Username: boddah
Post Number: 276
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.78.64.57
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 5:11 am: |
|
i don't have much new information to add to this thread, but i've read through it and did want to comment on one post.
way up above, mercyreigns said:
"We have 12 years of children who suffered greatly, wound up involved in drugs, married early, have babies, or just left all together and no longer believe.
It is a tragedy but God is aware and will rescue these precious souls abused at the hands of the Youth ministry, GG and GGca."
i see your point, mercyreigns, and appreciate the caring attitude. i know several young girls who wandered out of high school with no knowledge about sex, and ended up pregnant, married, or both almost immediately.
however, i don't think it's quite the same to be in an unhealthy relationship or hooked on drugs, as it is to leave christianity altogether and "no longer believe."
you may be equating these results on the basis that they both inhibit absorbing the christian spirit and doctrines (my guess, is it correct?)
the difference is: drugs, unwanted pregnancy, and ill-considered hasty marriage are all definitely, immediately, mentally and physically destructive. leaving/changing religion is a personal choice that makes many people feel happier and safer.
if some come back to christianity with tales of the dangerous black forest outside the fold, that's because they've embraced christian doctrines again. this makes them biased. ask some former ggca kids who converted to other religions or dropped religion entirely, and odds are they won't be so heavy on the black forest bit.
keep posting, guys, you're doing so much good here. |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Intermediate Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 322
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 7:49 am: |
|
Boddah - excellent post. One of my grandsons came to Baltimore from a healthy, loving Baptist youth group where he was not only a member, but was one of the teen leader/helpers. Of course when he got here he was in GGCA, had not been raised in GGWO, and was not the child of anyone very important. So he was not in the clique, so he was shunned. He left dejected and hurt, and got with the wrong crowd.
Those damnedable cliques that the teens learned from the elders are real people killers! And it is one more very severe and harmful form of child abuse. Then they wonder why GGWO kids get into the "wrong crowd?" Duh, could it be because they are accepted?
Thank God that my grandson has been getting back in fellowship with God for the past few months. He has been "hanging" with godly friedns, and "hanging" with granddad quite a lot. Now he is finding that the things he went through have made him stronger. God does have a way of doing that, doesn't He?
Everytime Nancy (or many others who have not yet named themsleves on here) spoke about needing true "in-reach" she was preached against from the pulpit. And CHS would turn to the fomenter of the teen elitism, John Love, and ask, "How can anyone say we do not have in-reach with all you do with the [clique] youth." JL's canned response was, "I don't know Pastor." (Bracketed word mine *LOL*)
Blessings,
Ralph
1Cor 15:10 |
boddah (boddah)
Intermediate Member
Username: boddah
Post Number: 278
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.78.64.57
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
|
ralph:
as a former mk (i hate that term but "daughter of missionaries is so melodramatic,) sometimes the friends i had were "thrust upon me" by the fact that our parents had ended up in the same country at the same time. this often happened against the kids' wills. if they had been clique members in balto., they were extremely hesitant about making friends with me, one of the lowly uninitiated.
in the end, they'd break down and invite me over etc. because they were lonely in a strange place, but when the time came to move back to the u.s. i can't count the number of explanations i heard as to why they didn't want to be hearing from me off mission soil. just as a precautionary measure, you understand, to keep them from being embarrassed by my presence later on.
"you know- in baltimore we wouldn't have been friends anyway..."
"i'll have all my friends back, so you won't need to be around..."
"you know how in america we have totally different friends? well..."
it was heartwrenching. i missed my friends in balto. incredibly, just like they did. but it's really damaging to lie about being friends with someone else, just to kill time while "real" people are unavailable! can you say, fear of rejection? (unfortunately, i've got quite the flair for that phrase.) |
boddah (boddah)
Intermediate Member
Username: boddah
Post Number: 279
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.78.64.57
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
|
ps-- we were all in awe of, but implicitly trusted, p. love and "mr. wade." and they said each one of us was special blah, blah... but i've never seen such an obvious clique as the teen leaders and their teen group flunky proteges! (pretend i know how to make little french dashes.)
when push came to shove, p. love and crew were like all the other leadership complained about on this board. come to them for honest help or guidance, and they somehow made it clear that whatever the problem, you just needed to draw closer to the lord, you can't just follow the world and expect life to work out! hey, let's pretend you're one of us for the afternoon to drive my point home! then they'd repeat your story to the whole clan. and in the end, that made many "follow the world" out of sheer desparation. |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Intermediate Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 324
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:53 am: |
|
Well, there is something about "little ones" and "millstones" that I think is very appropriate here.
Another thing Boddah, I saw a few kids who were more or less "forced" into the cliques by the system and/or parents because of the parents "position" in the ministry, and many of them were "shipwrecked" for years after "escaping."
God bless you on your healing path.
Ralph
1Cor 15:10 |
boddah (boddah)
Intermediate Member
Username: boddah
Post Number: 281
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.78.64.57
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 11:02 am: |
|
this is true, about the forced involvement in social groups. if parents treat a child as a mini-me, or as a pet (pretty parrot! wanna cracker?) the child will probably try to please mom and dad. that means catching on to the values of mom and dad's friends, too... losing parents' love would be much worse than having to demolish a few strange children you'll never see much of afterwards.
and i also know some clique captives who suffered incredibly wehen the ministry (and some of their families, too) began to unravel.
no idea what the millstones etc. are... |
ralphwells (ralphwells)
Intermediate Member
Username: ralphwells
Post Number: 326
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 162.129.227.254
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 12:04 pm: |
|
Boddah - In Christ's great love he said that if anyone harmed one of the "little ones who believed" in Him they would be better off having a millstone tied around their neck and being cast into the sea. (than what He will do to them.) The parentheical is my elaboration. (MT 18:6, MK 9:42, and LK 17:2.
The old saying goes, "It ain't over til' the fat lady sings" would be better said, "It ain't over til' Jesus gets through with exercising His judgments."
Blessings,
Ralph
1COr 15:10 |
ariel (ariel)
Junior Member
Username: ariel
Post Number: 27
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 151.201.17.229
| | Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 11:45 pm: |
|
Your damn right Ralph ! |
calv (calv)
New member
Username: calv
Post Number: 17
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 4.63.181.96
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 2:10 am: |
|
this thread...it must be read |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1060
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.154.97
| | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 11:09 pm: |
|
Child Sexual Abuse
What Is Child Sexual Abuse?
Child sexual abuse occurs when a child is used for sexual purposes by an adult or adolescent. It involves exposing a child to any sexual activity or behaviour. Sexual abuse most often involves fondling and may include inviting a child to touch or be touched sexually. Other forms of sexual abuse include sexual intercourse, juvenile prostitution and sexual exploitation through child pornography. Sexual abuse is inherently emotionally abusive and is often accompanied by other forms of mistreatment. It is a betrayal of trust and an abuse of power over the child.
Child sexual abuse is a criminal offence in Canada. The Criminal Code clearly identifies those behaviours that are against the law. The Canada Evidence Act defines the forms of evidence that may be admitted in court. In recent years, both the
Criminal Code and the Canada Evidence Act have been changed to provide better protection to children.
How Widespread Is the Problem?
Child sexual abuse is largely a hidden crime, so it is difficult to estimate the number of people who are sexually abused at some time during their childhood (the prevalence of child sexual abuse). Both adults and children may be reluctant to report sexual abuse for many reasons. Their reluctance may be related to the historical norm of keeping such behaviour secret because of the sense of shame associated with it. If the abuser is someone close to them in terms of kinship or other bonds, they may be deterred by the likelihood that criminal charges and penalties may be imposed. Finally, the fact that the victims are young and dependent tends to be a major obstacle to disclosure.
Research consistently reveals that, for reasons such as these, most child victims do not disclose their abuse. Even when they do, additional barriers may be encountered. For many of the same reasons that children do not report the abuse, their families may, in turn, not seek help. If the family does want help, they may still encounter difficulties finding the appropriate services.
There are few national statistics on child sexual abuse in Canada. A 1994 report, Child Welfare in Canada: The Role of Provincial and Territorial Authorities in Cases of Child Abuse, describes the provincial laws, definitions and child welfare systems that deal with child sexual abuse. A 1996 report, Child and Family Services Annual Report 1992-93 to 1994-95, presents statistical data on child welfare services in Canada. The available data cannot be directly or easily compared among the provinces because the information is collected according to different definitions and parameters in each province. For example, in some provinces, data on suspected cases are combined with those on confirmed cases. In other jurisdictions, sexual abuse is not distinguished from physical abuse.
Nonetheless, the following information provides some insight into the incidence of child sexual abuse.
• It is estimated that there were nearly 12 000 investigations of child sexual abuse in Ontario in 1993. Sexual abuse was substantiated in 29 percent of these cases and suspected in another 27 percent.
• In British Columbia, more than 500 complaints of sexual abuse were received in March 1992.
• The most extensive study of child sexual abuse in Canada was conducted by the Committee on Sexual Offences Against Children and Youths. Its report indicates that, among adult Canadians, 53 percent of women and 31 percent of men were sexually abused when they were children.
Facts to Consider
The Victim
• Victims of child sexual abuse are found in all classes and ethnocultural communities. Children who have physical or mental disabilities are especially vulnerable to sexual abuse.
• Children are not able to give informed consent to sexual activity because they cannot fully understand adult-child sexual contact or predict the consequences, and because the adult is abusing a position of authority over the child.
• Children who are isolated from others are at greater risk of being sexually abused. These children have little contact with friends, brothers and sisters or adults whom they can trust. Some abusers are able to take advantage of a child who is already isolated. Other abusers manage to isolate the child by manipulating people and situations. As a result of sexual abuse, some children may further isolate themselves because they feel different or afraid of what others will think.
• There is a greater possibility of serious distress to the child if the abuser is a family member, or if the child does not receive support from his or her non-abusive parent. The long-term consequences are also worse if force or the threat of force was used in the commission of the abuse, or if there were many incidents of abuse over a long period.
• As mentioned above, children find it difficult to break the silence. In a child's world, adults control most of the resources and seem to know all the answers. If the abuser threatens the child or someone the child loves, the child may not question the adult's power to carry out the threat.
• Children always want to tell about their abuse so that it can be stopped, but they are often afraid that they will not be believed or protected, or they are afraid of what might happen if they do tell. It is normal for children to delay telling about their abuse for a year or more after it occurs. They may talk about the abuse more readily if another victim discloses abuse by the same offender or if they are asked direct questions about the possibility of abuse.
• Especially in cases of incest, when the abuser is a close family member, children may not reveal their sexual victimization until they become adults. Many never tell even then. The abusers enforce secrecy and create in the child a fear of destroying the privacy and otherwise intact sense of security provided by the family.
• There is little evidence that many children deliberately make false allegations or misinterpret appropriate adult-child contact as sexual abuse. In the few recorded cases in which children appear to have made false allegations, it has usually been the result of manipulation by an adult.
• False denials of sexual abuse (saying it did not happen when it did) and recanting a disclosure of abuse (denying that it happened after having told someone about being abused) are much more common than false reports.
• Children sometimes recant truthful allegations of abuse. This is not surprising because the child naturally fears the impact that a disclosure will have on the family, or fears that he or she will not be believed. As well, the child may recant in fearful recognition of the fact that the offending adult has so much more power.
• When child victims receive professional support prior to giving testimony in court, their statements are more likely to be clear and accurately reflect the time and details of the event. The experience is also less stressful for the child who has received such support.
• Children vary in their responses to sexual abuse. The manner in which the adults react to the child's disclosure is an important factor in influencing how the child comes to view the abuse and his or her own role in it. Being believed and having family support can help the child to cope and adjust and can decrease some of the traumatic effects of sexual abuse.
• Adult women sexually molested as children are more likely than non-victims to suffer from both physical and psychological problems. Abusive and manipulative men may target these women as victims in adult relationships because of their vulnerability. Sexual abuse victims who were also physically or emotionally abused as children are the most likely to suffer from health problems and further abuse as adults.
• Men who were sexually abused as children may also suffer from depression, anxiety and suicidal thoughts and behaviour, especially if they were abused more than once. Those who experienced both emotional abuse and multiple acts of sexual abuse are the most likely to have poor mental health and to report sexual interest in, or sexual contact with, children.
The Abuser
• Most offenders are not strangers to their victims. In most cases, they are well known to their victims. Approximately 25 percent of offenders are adolescents.
• Most of the reported abusers are male.
• It is the offender who initiates the sexual activity. The offender is responsible for the abuse no matter what the child does.
• A recent Canadian study revealed that more than 40 percent of convicted child molesters were sexually abused as children. They tended to choose victims close to the age at which they were first victimized.
• Offenders use a number of tactics to gain access to children and to ensure their victim's silence. These tactics include the use of threats, physical force, bribery, and other forms of physical and psychological coercion.
• Some offenders have abused more than 70 children before any of the victims disclosed the abuse. In cases in which one offender has abused a large number of victims, the abused children are more likely to be male.
• Incest offenders reflect the same range of education, religion, occupation, intelligence and mental health status as can be found in a representative cross-section of the general population. Abusers are found among all ages, ethnocultural communities and social classes.
• Most sexual abuse takes place in the context of an ongoing relationship between the abuser and the child. This long-term relationship gives the offender opportunity to exploit the child's desires and fears. An incestuous father, for example, may give his child special privileges or gifts to obtain his or her cooperation and silence.
Reporting Child Sexual Abuse
If you believe you have reasonable grounds to suspect that a child is being sexually exploited or abused, promptly report your concerns to the child welfare agency, provincial or territorial social services department or police force in your community. In all cases, the person reporting is protected from any kind of legal action, provided the report is not falsely made and motivated by malice.
Where to Go for Support Services
Contact your local
– child welfare agency,
– police department,
– social service agency,
– hospital,
– mental health centre,
– sexual assault centre,
– transition home,
– distress centre, or
– other community service organization that provides counselling to children and families.
Many of these organizations are listed among the emergency telephone numbers on or near the first page of your local telephone directory.
Children who want help can also call the Kids' Help phone at 1-800-668-6868.
What Can Be Done to Prevent Child Sexual Abuse?
• Lawyers, judges, psychologists, doctors, social workers, police and other professionals who provide assistance to victims of child sexual abuse should receive specialized training.
• Children can best be protected by giving them the knowledge and skills necessary for their safety and well-being, and by creating in our families and communities an atmosphere in which they feel safe enough to come forward if they are being mistreated or abused.
• Children who are well informed about inappropriate touching, who are taught to trust their feelings about situations and people, and who know where to get help if they require it are less likely to be victims of any type of assault.
• Prevention education is particularly important for children who have been sexually abused, as they are at higher risk of revictimization than children who have not been sexually assaulted.
Suggested Reading
Carla van Dam. A Safety and First Aid Manual for the Prevention and Treatment of Child Sexual Abuse. Port Coquitlam, B.C.: M.D. Angus, 1987.
National Clearinghouse on Family Violence, Overview Papers on Child Abuse and Neglect, Wife Abuse, Dating Violence, Abuse of Seniors, etc. Ottawa: Health Canada.
Cheryl Ritlbauer, Street Proofing: Safety Training for Families. Winnipeg: Winnipeg South Child and Family Services Agency, 1987.
Sexual Abuse of Children, The Future of Children, Centre for the Future of Children, The David and Lucile Packard Foundation, 300 Second St., Suite 102, Los Altos, California, 94022., Vol. 4(2), 1994, 248 p.
Miriam Ticoll, No More Victims: A Manual to Guide Families and Friends in Preventing the Sexual Abuse of People with a Mental Handicap, North York, Ontario: Roeher Institute, 1992.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/ncfv-cnivf/familyviolence/html/nfntsxagrsex_e.html |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
New member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 158.59.27.31
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
|
Three weeks ago searching the Internet I found Factnet and was shocked to find Greater Grace World Outreach was and is a more abusive cult than I ever realized when I used to be a youth worker in a branch church of GGWO. I worked as a driver and became a mentor and friend to many of the teens over a 5 year period. I had only been to Baltimore every once in a while and it took about a year before the major problems of pastor worship, false teaching, legalism, and damaging cliques orchestrated by Carl Stevens and John Love came to light. I decided for the kids sake to stay on several more years to quietly expose false teaching to them and to be one youth worker that would always be there for them when others would just spout Carl Stevens doctrine. After being there a year, I heard false teaching like no touch love, mandatory attendance at all services(God would hurt you for every service you missed), all rock music was evil and demonic (even Christian rock), kids had to give at least 10 percent of their allowances to the church, Carl Stevens and his pastors were perfect and were to be blindly trusted and obeyed. Rules based on these teachings along with systematic alienation and disrespecting of teens and workers who didn't go along with Carl's program made life there more unbearable as time went on. Adults and teens were expected to snitch out their closest friends so the pastors could maintain control. Any friendship or marriage was considered expendable. All that matters was that teens would blindly trust and obey the local pastor, youth leader, and especially Carl and never think for themselves. Sounds like a cult doesn't it. After a few years of undermining the pastors control program and showing teens the real truth, the pastor used deception and brainwashing to have a close friend of mine betray me over a petty rule violation. I was later thrown out youth ministry and marked as an evil agent of Satan and even a weird pervert who was only there to make friends. Such lies by people who name the Name of Christ. I see I'm just one of hundreds who have been slandered by this disgusting cult. Fortunately not everyone believed them and I'm still ministering to kids to this day. So Carl and company, you'd better repent fast because God's wrecking ball is about to fall on you very soon. Forget Carl Stevens program and get on with real program of Jesus Christ before its too late |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
New member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 158.59.27.35
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 6:37 pm: |
|
More on my last post. There was unquestionably a sick social pecking order throughout GGWO, even in the youth ministry. First came Carl and the pastors, then came those who kissed lots of butt and gave lots of money. Then came those who believed all the Carl BS and fit in to the GG clique system. Then come the different ones that don't always believe Carl and fit in but hopefully (in the pastor's eyes) get with Carl's program later on. Everyone else gets shunned, excommunicated, slandered and rejected by many as evil. The position of the parent affects the position of the teen. The higher up on the ladder you are, the more respected, accepted you and your teen are and the more you can get away with. The lowest ranking parents and teens are still encouraged to come to church and teen functions but then get rejected, judged, stared at, gossiped about, and condemned.
The local pastor is supposed to be a shepard who takes time to listen to people's concerns, encourage them, support them, and protect them. Sad to say my local branch pastor was none of that to me and others that knew me well. He might say "Hi" or Thanks for helping out" just to be polite but there was no sincerity behind it. He would hang out with those who sucked up to him constantly. He was the most arrogant, power hungry, inconsiderate egomaniac of a pastor I ever had. Others would agree like a lady I ran into at a bus station. She had already left because of that.
Ultimately I was tossed out for not being a Carl suckup and for playing some rock music in my own car with a few teens on a long car trip. How silly. Rules like that have no place in a healthy teen group. What are kids supposed to do on a long trip, spend the whole time discussing how great Carl and his teaching is. Things don't work that way. Let kids be kids! A few rock songs are not going to release the boogie man in the car.
At this point, leaving GGWO felt like a 100 ton weight was lifted off my back and now I can do everything God leads me to do without manipulation and interference from arrogant self serving pastors at GGWO. My prayer is that all those who continue to abuse and disrespect and alienate youths will repent or be brought down by God Himself. The health and well being of kids is more important than the survival of Greater Grace World Outreach. If kids continue to get hurt, GGWO must be considered expendable and torn down. God's Kingdom will thrive and expand with or without Carl and company. The question for Carl and his pastors is.. are they going to stay with a man's program and die or get with God's program and be a part of the greatest expansion of God's Kingdom in history!!! |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
New member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 9:15 am: |
|
You go that right Doris!!!! These people are the worst self righteous hypocrites I've ever seen. They do anything they want and then put teenagers under a bunch of silly rules based on Carl Stevens' faulty doctrine. Then they wonder why kids won't open up to them. When kids did open up to me they got really jealous of that and tried even harder to find a way to discard me that wouldn't make them look too bad politically. They just ended up showing themselves as the real jerks and liars they really are!!! Nice how God makes things backfire on people such as them! |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
New member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
|
Doris
The end of this spiritual holocaust could not come soon enough!!!!! Way too many kids have been abused and alienated by this so called church. I'm looking forward to see that end! In the meantime, I'm going to keep working with kids (a lot from GGWO) and others to help them heal and go on with life without all the crap from Carl Stevens and his suckups. God will take care of Carl and company!! |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1110
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.154.97
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 9:38 pm: |
|
sidethorn
I have not yet had a chance to thank you for the person you are to the teens. I appreciate all you have done and are doing.
I have been working at advocating for them here on the board. I was convinced early on that they were the lost population of victims of this damned cult.
I have been trying to provide any and all who email me the phone numbers of crisis hotlines, rape crisis counseling centers in their area....and telling them that the sexual abuse can stop...to get themselves a chance, call the number, tell someone outside of the cult that can help them.
Many have. Many others need help. I am glad to hear that you understand the plight of these forgotten young people. Maybe we can, both in our way, get them free, help them heal, and show them that life is NOT hopeless and there is life outside of GG.
Blessings
Roberta |
maria_t (maria_t)
Intermediate Member
Username: maria_t
Post Number: 490
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 141.157.118.168
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 12:48 am: |
|
Roberta I want to be there with you in heaven when the Lord rewards you for your obedience to Him with being an advocate for the children.
Thank God your voice is on here.
Maria |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
New member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 158.59.27.35
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
|
Roberta
I want to thank you for all you're doing for young people. There is definately hope out there and your efforts are making a difference. My God bless your efforts. For those feeling hopeless in GGWO, the first step is to head for your nearest exit and to find a healthy church or anyone like you or a rape crisis center and the like. Together we can all make a difference. Unless GGWO quickly repents, I hope someone can come forward with solid evidence of abuse and church cover up activity that will stand up in court. That should finally bring all this carnage to a long overdue end.
Doris
May God bless all your efforts too. Thanks for your posts. Young people will see them and they will lift their hopes up. Long live FACTNET and may the posts keep getting posted until the GGWO monster is no more!! |
plaid (plaid)
Junior Member
Username: plaid
Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.91.58.35
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 3:03 am: |
|
I usually have lots to say about these issues, I usually try to add my two cents in where I think it may contribute.
I'll add this here, because teen stuff seems to be coming up. I will never ever understand the complacency of parents who seem to feel that thier childen spending large stretches of time with "youth leaders" etc who they barely know. WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE?
You get references for babysitters. You do background checks on your daycare centers. You check the local sex offender registry. You ask who, what, why, where, when with all your kids friends.
Yet how many of our parents never even bothered to find out who all these barely grown adults where who were taking us to strange towns on blitzes, on overnight weekend trips to branch churches? There was no criteria in Lenox for working with kids, just show up and get in good with Pastor Love. You had free reign.
I do blame the parents. They were entrusted by God to care for us and they failed, miserably. Carl, his minions, and yes the great and powerful pastor Love - if I saw thier training and resumes now, there is no way I'd think they were qualified to provide any services to my children. None of them have any training or education in child/adolescent development, for starters.
I really hope these parents can understand that "youth activities" are not a place to send thier kids so they can sit back, pat themselves on the back for being good parents, and ignore thier responsibilities. |
whatsup (whatsup)
New member
Username: whatsup
Post Number: 9
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 64.12.116.9
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
|
Plaid,
You are so right. I know firsthand of a child that was molested at Camp Life by a young man in charge of some activities there. And yes, the authorities were notified but it was a "he said, she said" thing and the ministry actually defended the molester. Disgusting but true. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.154.97
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
|
plaid and whatsup...Bless you both for speaking out about what really was happening. The more people speak up the more chance we have of having people believe the truth.
Bless you both...please keep telling the truth. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1172
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.154.97
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 10:55 am: |
|
whatsup
Is this person, the molestor still with GGWO? If you would you tell his name? I ask because there may be many parents still trusting this slimeball with theuir kids, and he must be exposed to save others.
If it was reported to the authorities, and they did nothing, and the ministry protected him, this is a dangerous breach of trust.
Please think about warning others. If his name is known to the authorities and the ministry...the rest of us have a right to know, especially those with loved ones past and present....like me...who are kids in the ministry!
Wanna talk?
srfern@verizon.net |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
New member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 14
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
|
I wish I knew who this molester was (or any other) and everyone who covered for him. I'd turn them all in to the authorities in a heartbeat!!! Whoever they may be need to be locked up for a real long time!! Hearing of people doing these kinds of things makes me want to puke! |
aurora (aurora)
Member
Username: aurora
Post Number: 78
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.30.49.45
| | Posted on Monday, March 14, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
|
When we chose not to have our teens "invested in" by the youth leader, after a while they themselves were made to feel on the outside of things. My son used to say that he wasn't invited to fun activities because he wasn't doing the program (Saturday am outreach, young adult class, etc) and so was excluded. When he did for a brief season "get in the youth leader's hip pocket" he was included in everything. It was subtle but real. I knew it but my husband and I still felt that we did not want to have him hanging around all the time with those youth workers. We as his parents wanted to be the main influence in his life. He didn't need a substitute parent. The youth leader fancied himself as one would rescue kids alienated from their parents.
Always division. One mom told me the leaders thought I had a "mama's boy" and we were too controlling. See? They believe the church IS supposed to come before family! This is what was practiced, I saw it for over 20 years, even if they try to preach something different now (I'm told they are trying to praise up families more). Sending your High School graduates to Baltimore was an extention of this loyalty test as well. I saw it over and over all these years.
By the way this was as recent as last year and in a branch ministry.
Plaid, I also believe it is the parents who abandoned their role in a way by giving their kids over to the leaders. It's almost like a loyalty test though. Unwritten, unspoken, but still there- the pressure to trust "the village" to raise your child. If any parents of children still young enough to be confronted with this stuff are reading this- please think long and hard before giving them over to the group. |
maria_t (maria_t)
Intermediate Member
Username: maria_t
Post Number: 498
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 141.157.118.168
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 2:42 am: |
|
Excellent point Aurora. Yours too Plaid, glad to see you back posting again.
Maria |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
New member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 8:03 am: |
|
I second that. Excellent posts! I saw this loyalty thing too in my own branch group. Carl Stevens, John Love and their teaching came above everything including parents and family. Stevens and Love really believe this crap. I thought parents were supposed to raise their children and not the church. After all the harm GGWO has done to kids for decades, I wouldn't entrust any kids of mine to these vultures if they paid me to! |
plaid (plaid)
Junior Member
Username: plaid
Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.91.58.35
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
|
And I for one generally like spending my free time with my kids  What's the point of all the hard work, yes HARD work, of parenting, if I can't get some enjoyment by doing fun things with my kids, and just soaking up thier personalities when time does permit?
We do try to get some time as couple too, but I keep thiking of the days when my daughters will be too embarassed to go to the store with me and I want to get all the time in with them before I have to drop them off two blocks away from school so they can walk the rest of the way to be cool  |
overseas (overseas)
Intermediate Member
Username: overseas
Post Number: 327
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 82.76.248.30
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 1:20 pm: |
|
Hello to all. Sorry for not being on track with your discussion but I am looking for feedback from former GGWOS.
I am posting to ask your advice for a friend of mine that just attended a GGWO conference in Budapest last week. She is a believer attending an evangelical church here in eastern Europe and just attended the conference by invitation from someone from GGWO (Schaller led the whole meeting, Scipelli had a sermon too - I understand these are well known names for GGWO). I was aware of GGWO from this site (so your posts have results in warning people, thank God. So what is your advice to people having a first time contact with GGWO ? |
servantforgod (servantforgod)
New member
Username: servantforgod
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 199.196.144.13
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 1:35 pm: |
|
Amen to everyone on this board! I despise cults and false teaching. I can't stand child abuse and using deceptive tactics to scare guilt trips into these hurting children. Either they are hurting or if they're not, they are content to being blinded by such tactics. Then they are just as guilty for joining the cult and are no longer innocent. Save the saved! We have a flock that needs protection. Jesus said, "Feed my Sheep." That doesn't mean to slander them!
It says in the word of God:
And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matthew 18: 5
And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. Mark 9: 42
Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. Luke 17:1
The wrath of God is nigh! I can feel it burning inside my heart.
It says in the word of God:
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24
The sheep are scattered, blinded, and confused. We are to teach children to obey God and not man. Deuteronomy 4:9.
Many churches including GGWO are so full of hypocrisy, and the sheep have been driven away and have been left to wander alone. It's such a sickening and apalling outrage.
Destruction is nigh. The word of God says however:
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Jesus said, let the children come to me and do not stop them, for the kingdom is their's.
We need to have more churches that get children off of the streets and doing Christ centered activites, which include bible study.
We need ministries to preach the true gospel and to share the Good News of our Lord Jesus Christ to our children today.
If more of the truth was shared with children in America, there would not be so much drug use, alcohol abuse, premarital sex or juvenile crimes being committed.
It says in his word:
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without selfcontrol, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God– 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weakwilled women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth–men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. 2 Timothy 3:1-9
Is this what we want our children to become?
God's wrath will be poured out on those who continue to decieve youths and cause them to become this way! Unless we act now our children will grow up not knowing of the true saving grace of Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and will be doomed to eternal punishment.
In the word of God it says:
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. Revelation 21:8
Think about it! |
ariel (ariel)
Member
Username: ariel
Post Number: 53
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 141.158.99.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
|
OVERSEAS
In response to your last post, i.e advice to your freind who is looking into ggwo...
ask her, no plead with her to read Carl Stevens.org website with the 15 or so links to articles and stories at the bottom of the web page...ask her to write in to the factnet/ggwo discussion board with a question...
remind her that with ggwo, where there is smoke there is fire.. where there is stench , there is a decaying body..., please remind her to excercise her God-given discernment regarding ggwo and its strange, strange spirit.
freinds dont let freinds join cults...
may God help you both. |
anon_brief (anon_brief)
Intermediate Member
Username: anon_brief
Post Number: 235
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 64.12.116.9
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
|
Overseas
Please give your friend as much information on GGWO as possible.
www.carlstevens.org |
overseas (overseas)
Intermediate Member
Username: overseas
Post Number: 328
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 164.143.244.33
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 2:40 am: |
|
Thank you for the good resource. I took my friend to this site and she looked to some of your posts, mainly doctrinal stuff and I think she will not visit GGWO any more. She noted some strabge stuff at the conference but was not really alarmed. Because of the name it rang a bell to me. Now we will try to talk to the GGWO girl which is surely not aware of the whole mess. God bless you. |
anon_brief (anon_brief)
Intermediate Member
Username: anon_brief
Post Number: 238
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.117.72
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 7:39 am: |
|
Thanks be to God. |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
New member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 22
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 3:06 pm: |
|
BUMP. |
calv (calv)
Intermediate Member
Username: calv
Post Number: 300
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 4.63.182.153
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
|
bump |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
Member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
|
BUMP. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1316
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 141.154.160.225
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
|
Please pray for the kids still trapped in the whirlwind? |
preston (preston)
New member
Username: preston
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 69.169.190.139
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
|
I was molested in TBS. Forgive me if I give limited details. It was not by anyone in leadership, just an ordinary run of the mill member. Lots of families lived in group settings back then. It was just assumed, if you were TBS/GGWO, why, you must be a good person. That was the blanket theory perpetuated by the church. I can't count how many times we stayed a night here or a few months there in these types of settings. Letting your daughter sleep unsupervised in near proximity to strangers. But not strangers, no! Fellow body members. 'Nuff said. No questions needed. Churches like TBS/GGWO's no-accountability philosophy attract these kinds of people, I am living proof. |
plaid (plaid)
Junior Member
Username: plaid
Post Number: 48
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 66.91.58.35
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
|
Preston,
I'm so sorry that happend to you. I'm HORRIFIED now as an adult at the living conditions of most of us in Maine and Lenox. It was honestly a pedophiles dream - easy access to lots of kids who's parents were to busy to do much of anything. |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
Intermediate Member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 199
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
|
bump |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 141.154.160.225
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
|
I think it is very important that we keep this discussion and these facts about sexual abuse going...because with the current manifestation of GGWO under Schaller closing ranks the situation has the potential to become markedly worse for the children.
Tensions are running high, the die hard believers in this perverse cult are hanging on for dear life. One might think that molesters would be more wary at this point, but that isn't always the case. With the increased cult rhetoric comes also the false sense of reassurance that might cause these violators of the young to be more apt to be active.
Please...anyone reading this who has children they know and love still held captive by parents who believe the GGWO lies...keep an eye on them. Watch them for signs of problems...do not abandon them if you can in any way stay a part of their lives even though you yourself have left the cult.
If you are a young person reading this...know that all of us care about you. We understand you may be going through hell. If you need help I can give you numbers to call in your area. In the past year I have given out phone numbers to 48 women and children from GGWO who have contacted me. You don't have to give your name, I just want you to get help....please tell someone you trust outside the church what is happening, or email me
srfern@verizon.net
and I will put you in contact with people who can help you.
You are not alone. We care, God cares and we can help. YOU ARE LOVED AND PRAYED FOR EVERY DAY.
Roberta |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
Intermediate Member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 202
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
|
God bless you Roberta and thanks for helping out the hurting children.
SIDETHORN |
david_munson (david_munson)
Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 82
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.159.204.6
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 8:03 pm: |
|
As far as sexual abuse goes,all I have to say to the offender is this,Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Pretty serious dealings with the Lord will be the result.Not to mention the law.
I have no sympathy for child molestors.If I caught such a one,there would be no trial for them and I would be slow in my"dealing"with them.
They would be better off dieing than having me get a hold on them.GRRRRRRR!!!!!
I know that vengeance belongs to the Lord but I'd loose my mind about it.
Dave}}}} |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
Intermediate Member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 246
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 2:03 pm: |
|
You deserve a bump today! |
heather (heather)
Intermediate Member
Username: heather
Post Number: 360
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.116.72
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 12:17 am: |
|
Dave Munson. It is by Gods Grace that I post here on factnet and still walk the eart a free woman instead of doing time. Some days the words of my little girl play over and over in my head and the urge to go hunting drives me to my knees.
While riding down the road I over heard her telling her friend in the back seat "remember what I told you, don't tell anyone" I asked her what she had told her, I told her she could always tell me anything. Her friend lives right next door to GG. She had told her never to go there. She said "Wisot is a bad bastard" I laughed and choke on a sob at the same time. I was just so shocked that it had come out of her mouth like that. Then she went on to repeat what had happened on that day. I thought she had forgotten, I really thought it was over and she didnt remember. She was only 4 at the time. I just recently found out that Wisot invited the family back to church and offered to help cover it up some more. I guess he forgot about those he told about it before covering it up.
This thread deserves a bump for sure sidethorn. |
preston (preston)
Junior Member
Username: preston
Post Number: 39
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 69.169.190.139
| | Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 12:45 am: |
|
My mother's heart aches, Heather. I am so, so sorry.
I agree, this is a subject that cannot be silenced! |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
Intermediate Member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 343
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 8:18 am: |
|
You deserve a bump today.
Some questions:
What is the IAGM doing or not doing to safeguard the children and teens in their churches??? Are the youth leaders and workers being properly screened or not?? Are the youth being taught to worship God or the pastor?? What is really going on lately in the lives of these precious children and teens??
These same questions could be thrown at GGWO (especially John Love) and their own affiliates. What is really going on lately??
Any comments. Please post. |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1612
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.109.247.167
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 1:25 pm: |
|
Thank you for bumping this up ST...you are a true warrior for the kids and they know that.
Your questions echo my questions....what if anything is the IAGM doing about this situation.
If I were feeling better I would say more. I am with you completely ST |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
Intermediate Member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 344
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 2:37 pm: |
|
Thanks Roberta. Thanks for your courageous stand for all the kids!! I'm trying to get some discussion started here for the kids' sakes. The IAGM has been talking about reforms in doctrine but I'm not seeing anything about reforms about how the youth functions are run. Big changes are sorely needed and I'm not hearing anything about that. What also concerns me is that the IAGM has not sought help from outside non-cultic ministries in reforms, unlearning false teachings and cultic practices. That could have devastating reprocussions for the kids there. I would hate to see the IAGM have just another John Love styled nightmare of a youth program. Too many young lives have been wrecked already. All the carnage has to stop somewhere. The untold youth horror stories must be brought out into the open. Please post them. Every story brought out into the open will bring the GGWO carnage closer to its well deserved end. Young lives are depending on this. |
david_munson (david_munson)
Senior Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 65.145.232.155
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
|
As I understand it,the moment such allegations are made known,IAGM associated ministries are to contact the athaurities immediately and instigate an investigation.
Any guilty parties will find themselves prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
I have come to understand that many safeguards have been put into place and doctrinal errors have/are being addressed.
---------
As concerns past unprosecuted molestation,I would suggest a gathering of documented evidence for the use of criminal prosecution in a class action against GGWO and it's involved parties.
Dave
} |
gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)
Intermediate Member
Username: gone_to_pa
Post Number: 272
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.78.102.23
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
|
Does anyone know about the head of the youth ministry inparticularly? I had my daughter tell me something I'm not real pleased to find out about now. Please let me know. i have a sure cure for those who engage in such perversions. Now, I do have a Penticostal background. This has always worked. First as you already know they are really sick so first things first. I will lay hands on them, then after that everyone can pray for a healing. I wish my daughter would have told me this back when she went to CLife. I'm sorry, but I have no mercy nor sympathy for anyone who would hurt a child in any fashion. |
dinaweena (dinaweena)
Intermediate Member
Username: dinaweena
Post Number: 318
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.17.16.93
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
|
I like your method of healing Tom....HAHAHAHAHA!! Wish I'd had you around when I was raped (not church involved) at age 12...I've no tolerance for people who think that it's ok to touch a child...I would KILL the person who did it to any one of my kids...I'd TOTALLY be willing to go to jail for manslaughter... |
gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)
Intermediate Member
Username: gone_to_pa
Post Number: 273
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.78.102.23
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 9:24 pm: |
|
Dina,
No doubt, without a second thought. It that situation I would use the old "kill em all, and let God sort them out"
Dina, the laying on of hands is not optional, the praying for a healing is.LoL. Still, I want to know about the above Pastor Ias speaking about who's intials are JL. Does anyone know anything about him? If you fel uncomfortable telling me here, then please e-mail and I will keep in all confidence. In fact if anyone has any Camp Life stories especially with the above person involved, I really could use to know. Dian, I wish I could have been there for you then, I'd problly be going up for parole right around now. Homey don't plat dat!
Peace out Tom |
bonniescott (bonniescott)
Member
Username: bonniescott
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 63.22.106.49
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 10:18 pm: |
|
Dave you said:
"As I understand it,the moment such allegations are made known,IAGM associated ministries are to contact the athaurities immediately and instigate an investigation.
Any guilty parties will find themselves prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."
Where'd you hear that? |
rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Senior Member
Username: rjfernalld
Post Number: 1614
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.109.248.199
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
|
Tom
If your daughter has revealed something to you that has happened, believe her. You don't need to find out anything about the pastor involved. Report said pastor to the appropriate athorities. NOW. THAT is the proper thing to do...I don't care if the statute of limitations has expired or not. By reporting this pastor involved, it provides a heads up for the authorities to examine or re-examine other reports they may have received.
Report him, now. For your daughter's sake do the right thing, NOT the violent emotional thing. Now. Report this incident to the correct authorities, get your daughter some counseling and do the right thing....*hug*
RJ |
bonniescott (bonniescott)
Member
Username: bonniescott
Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 63.22.106.49
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 10:39 pm: |
|
GTP:
Absolutely! I echo everything RJ just said. Support your daughter all the way within the law! |
david_munson (david_munson)
Senior Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.235.26.30
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 12:41 am: |
|
Bonnie,
I thought I read it somewhere on the IAGM site but I could be wrong.I'll have to look around,I might have read it in the Sandy Cove documents.
I read it somewhere.Maybe it was in a suggestion someone made and I mistook it for an adopted rule.
I'll definately have to recheck this for sure.
Thanks for bringing that question up.Now I'm going to get zealous in my attempt to find out where I actually read it.
I'll get back to you on that and let you know if I'm correct in my memory or not.
God bless,
Dave
} |
david_munson (david_munson)
Senior Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 1257
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 63.235.26.30
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 1:50 am: |
|
Bonnie,
I didn't find it on the IAGM site or in the Sandy Cove documents.
I might have read it as a suggestion on here somewhere and thought I read it somewhere else.
Either that or it's on one of the many christian sites I visit each day.(I have a few to say the least.Over a hundred)
Now I really am wondering where I read it.I know I did but to place it is something else.
It was not on IAGM to be sure.
Now I'm going to go crazy trying to find out exsactly where I did read that.
Well at least I only have half the trip since I was already half crazy anyway.
I wonder how long it would take me to read through all the posts that have such healthy and reasonable suggestions?
} |
bonniescott (bonniescott)
Member
Username: bonniescott
Post Number: 91
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.60.183.196
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 8:48 am: |
|
Dave,
I made a suggestion somewhat like that in a list of recommendations to Skip Wood earlier this summer and posted them on the "What questions would you ask" thread. I'm sure I'm not the first. As far as I know the issue of protecting children has not been addressed in any official way or even spoken to publicly on the IAGM site. The official stance seems to be "ignore it and maybe it will go away". Until they do address it they remain suspect in my book.
I think its important that we NOT spread misinformation, especially where this subject is concerned. |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
Intermediate Member
Username: sidethorn
Post Number: 345
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 169.253.4.21
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 9:20 am: |
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The IAGM needs to stop ignoring this issue. It cannot be allowed to go away like they may want. If the IAGM wants to be a trustworthy ministry, they better start by protecting the children and really take on this whole issue which so far they have not. Until they do, I won't trust them and will avoid them. |
david_munson (david_munson)
Senior Member
Username: david_munson
Post Number: 1259
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 65.150.212.191
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 3:41 pm: |
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Bonnie,
you're absolutely right.I will make a concerted effort to make certain of what I make statements about in the future.
Most likely it was your recomendation I had read and I agree that there should be an open discourse concerning this most important matter.
If the children cannot be protected,then of what worth is any organisation?
I'm going to have to open a folder to hold information so that I don't missapply or missquote anyone in the future.
I most certainly do not want to be a perveyor of missinformation.
I appologise for for that.
I also want to thank you for bringing to my attention the need to be careful what I post.
God's Love,
Dave} |
gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)
Intermediate Member
Username: gone_to_pa
Post Number: 274
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.78.102.23
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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Rj and Bonnie,
Please do me a favor and e-mail me. My doctor just told me that there is a possibility that my right ventrical is getting clogged. I have gained 15 lbs in the last 2 weeks and my feet are so swollen I can barely walk. Just send a hello, and I will respond with what happened, then you can give me your advice. Can't sit a computer to long. Thanks Tom |
dinaweena (dinaweena)
Intermediate Member
Username: dinaweena
Post Number: 321
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 70.17.16.93
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 8:15 pm: |
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Holy cannoli!! God's hand you on Tom! |
bonniescott (bonniescott)
Member
Username: bonniescott
Post Number: 92
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 69.60.183.196
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:02 am: |
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Hi Tom,
I'm so sorry to hear about your health problems. Sorry also that I can't email right now. I will be praying for you, your daughter, and your family. |
gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)
Intermediate Member
Username: gone_to_pa
Post Number: 277
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 64.78.102.23
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 6:50 pm: |
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Than you, it is the thought that counts. |
rj_fernalld (rj_fernalld)
New member
Username: rj_fernalld
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 70.109.248.199
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
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dearest tom
i want you to know i did get your email i just haven't been physically able to send you the answer you deserve. let me just say here about the situation that although it was without a doubt inappropriate and should vigorously be complained about to
1. the person involved
2. his immediate "boss"
3. the head of the organization as a whole
if I were in your shoes i'd be extremely glad nothing serious happened, for it could have easily enough.
4. i'd take my daughter out of that situation so fast everyone would think there had been a whirlwind!
5. please be sure to teach your daughter to say NO to such activities again. she is not obliged to participate just because someone like him seems to require it.
again, know that i am praying bigtime for your health. i know all too well how hard health problems can be to deal with. know also that i see your great big heart of love for your family, and know you wilo do nothing to cause them pain by stepping outside the law with violence against this man.
you're truly a gem, tom
love
roberta |
sidethorn (sidethorn)
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