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     solopilot (solopilot) New member Username: solopilot Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
From FACTNet's list: "Common Properties of Potentially Destructive and Dangerous Cults The cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes and roles." Most males in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are members of the Priesthood. There are two main levels of priesthood, the Aaronic (lower) and Melchizidek (higher). Each has three offices. In the Aaronic Priesthood, these are Deacon, Teacher and Priest, each (in order) having a greater responsiblity than the prior office. Aaronic priests are charged with temporal duties, and to assist the Melchizidek Priesthood (for instance, the Aaronic Priesthood generally pass the Sacrament emblems). The three Melchizidek offices are Elder, High Priest, and Seventy, however, these are charged with different duties, not different levels of authority. All Melchidizek priests are addressed as "Elder" when their office is referred to. They may also be addressed by the specific calling that they have, such as Bishop or President. The priesthood authority is based on the "keys" held by the Prophet, First Presidency (the Prophet's two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Various callings may have authority or responsiblity for a specific task, geographic area or other division as needed. However, the priesthood authority of the newest 19-year-old Elder is no less than that of the Prophet. This spikes the first of the "common properties" of cults -- unless you wish to define all of Christianity as cult, as our leader -- the Lord Jesus -- is the supreme authority, who "delegated certain power to a few subordinates." Next criterion: "The cult's leaders tend to be charismatic, determined, and domineering. They persuade followers to drop their families, jobs, careers, and friends to follow them. They (not the individual) then take over control of their followers' possessions, money, lives." The closest that the Latter-day Saints came to this were the "United Orders," which were experimenal communities in which all property was held in common and everyone expected to work at a group. This may work for angels, but not for men, and this historical example has kept the Mormons from any similar attempts in the century since. Latter-day Saints are expected to be industrious, support themselves and their families, and assist those less fortunate. Far from "taking control" of our individual finances, Mormon leaders are not paid to preach. Most higher leaders are retired from commercial life; some get an imcome from the secular enterprises which they manage on behalf of the Church, in the same way any corporate executives are paid. The Prophet lives in a moderate-sized apartment in downtown Salt Lake City, but spends large portions of time travelling the world to follow the duties of his calling, such as dedicating Temples or overseeing humanitarian efforts. Members are expected to pay one-tenth of their increase as tithing. There is no correlation of actual income with the amount paid as tithing; in Temple "Recommend" interviews, we are asked "Do you pay a full and complete tithing?" This is a yes or no question, and is the only time that the issue is raised. There is no "collection plate" to be passed, the matter is between us and the Lord, we are not shamed into putting more money in because the person next to us did. Our tithing supports the day-to-day operating budget, building funds, literature publication and emergency needs. In addition, we fast two meals on the first Sunday of every month, then give the money which would have been spend on food as a "fast offering," which in part supports the worldwide humanitarian efforts of the Church, such as disaster response, health clinics, etc. But, above all, Mormon doctrine holds family to be the most important keystone of our existance. We are all the children of our Heavenly Father, and everything in the Restored Gospel is in keeping with this. No other Christian church teaches that families can be together forever, and none spends as much money to help the family progress together. We first came up with the concept of "Family Home Evening" decades ago, one night each week in which the family is together (though not always a home) for uplifting activities, games, museum visits, etc. Next criterion: "The cult's leaders are self-appointed, messianic persons who claim to have a special mission in life." Nearly every member of the Church outside of young children has a calling, duties to perform. Callings are made through the inspiration of the Lord. Members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency are chosen by guidance and election. Twice each year, all Church authories, from the Prophet to the teacher of a Sunday School class, are held up to be sustained by a showing of hands of the membership. Members who oppose are given the opportunity to explain their opposition, and a serious allegation can result in the opposed calling being withdrawn. So much for "self-appointed." Next: "The cult's leaders center the veneration of members upon themselves. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and leaders of genuinely altruistic movements keep the veneration of adherents focused on God, abstract principles, and group purposes. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves." The messages given by Church authorities are nearly always on doctrinal issues, most often on the Scriptures and on helping those in need. One display (taking up nearly the whole lower level area of the North Visitor's Center) on Temple Square is on the lesson of the Good Samaritan. In nearly 30 years as an adult member of the Church, I have never seen any kind of "worship-me" stuff, and in fact the leaders always say "worship the Lord, as we do." Next: "The cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of the behavior of its members. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail what members wear, eat, when and where they work, sleep, and bathe-as well as what to believe, think, and say." We have the "Word of Wisdom," (Doctrine and Coevenants Section 89) which tells us not to use drugs and to eat properly. Not obeying the Word of Wisdom means that one is not worthy to enter the Temple or to be baptised, but otherwise in and of itself will not affect Church membership or activity. The EFFECTS of drunkenness or other dope abuse may lead to loss of callings or even priesthood offices, but someone who drinks or smokes is not thrown out for those actions directly. We are no different from any other Christian church in the level to which we tell our members what to believe, think or say. Belive in Christ, think good thoughts, say the truth and do what the Lord wants you to do. Next: "The cult tends to have a double set of ethics. Members are urged to be open and honest within the group, and confess all to the leaders. On the other hand, they are encouraged to deceive and manipulate outsiders or nonmembers. Established religions teach members to be honest and truthful to all, and to abide by one set of ethics." In this, we are less "cultish" than most of the Protestant churches. We don't go on tours, make movies or write books condemning other churches and taking their doctrines out of context to "prove" our point. When members are found to be committing sins, they are counseled or (if necessary) excommunicated, rather than their sins being hidden or even discounted. We don't change our doctrines from place to place, there is a single set of doctrines worldwide, which is why the sister missionaries on Temple Square in Salt Lake City can come from 100 different countries without confusion. In Temple Recommend interviews, we are asked "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?" That's about as generic as it gets, we are to be honest with EVERYONE. Next: "The cult has basically only two purposes, recruiting new members and fund-raising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. However, their sole purpose is not to grow larger; such groups have the goals to better the lives of their members and mankind in general. The cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims, or gestures. Their focus is always dominated by recruiting new members and fund-raising." Visitors to Salt Lake City are invited to tour "Humanitarian Square," a huge facility (one of several) devoted to preparing and storing disaster supplies, as well as packages of food, school books, clothing, bedding, toys, medical supplies, hygene kits, tools, and so on -- all of which are sent, ton after ton, around the world to those in need, without regard to their religious affiliation. We send so much of these supplies out that we've have to have special boxes and labels made, so that our volunteers in the warehouses just have to make a couple of checkmarks to keep it all sorted out. When disaster strikes, those pulling supplies merely have to look for the right labels and checkmarks to send what is needed. In addition, the Church owns a number of farms, ranches, canneries and other plants, producing for Deseret, "the brand that money can't buy!" This food is given without charge to the needy, our own as well as non-Mormons. Most of the work involved in these activities is done by unpaid volunteers, guided by a handful of paid administrators (whose job is to coordinate the work and teach each new group what to do). Funding for these efforts comes from tithing and fast offerings, as well as sales proceeds from the Deseret Industries thrift stores. DI also provides employment and training for those who might otherwise not find work due to handicap or recent immigration. Next: "The cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. While claiming this, the cult then surreptitiously uses systems of psychological coercion on its members to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult." Yes, we're so exclusive that one American in 50 is a member of the Church, and this number is growing. The majority of Church members are not even in the United States, and our greatest growth is taking place in Latin America and around the Pacific Rim. More and more of our authorities are converts who come from the areas in which they serve. We are definitely innovative. The Word of Wisdom dates back to the 1830s, a time when the physical dangers of tobacco and some of the chemicals in coffee and tea were unknown. Our Relief Society was the first women's "community" group. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir's weekly radio and TV broadcasts are the longest-running network broadcast series in the world. Many of our social programs and family traditions have been adopted by others around the world. We DO have "the only viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills" -- it's called the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. That gospel has been restored to what it was in the time of the original Apostles, many of the blanks imposed by men onto Christian doctrines are filled in, other manmade doctrines exposed for what they are, and we are the leaders in "defense of the family," having started our work in 1846 with the ordinances of the Temple. Far from inhibiting members' ability to examine the validity of our claims, we are encouraged to think for ourselves, to investigate and to understand all that we can. No other Christian scripture tells us to pray to God to ask if what we have been told is true, but this is in the Book of Mormon (Moroni 10:4). Some of the questions asked of me before I was allowed to be baptised were whether I had followed that admonition, had I prayed to know that the Church was true, and did I believe that Jesus Christ was the only way to eternal life. Looking over the whole list, it's clear that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can't be considered any more a "destructive cult" than any other Christian church. | ||
| cindig (cindig) New member Username: cindig Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.219.62.118 |
Think as you like, but yes it is. If you believe in Jesus Christ, why don't you believe all that is written in the Bible about him? You either believe it or he is a liar. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Junior Member Username: overseas Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
I see Solopilot knows or tells nothing about the lousy beginning of Mormons, the fights between leaders over time and how many times they changed doctrines. Solopilot, would you please put the Bible in the hands of an ignorant man (go to jungle) then asked him what did he understand ? Just tell me if the guy came up with all those rules, concils and wicca staff of yours. Think why Charles Taze Russel (founder of Jehova Witnesses) was so puzzled to see that if people read only the Bible, they come up with doctrines close to Protestants/ Evangelicals. So he decided to ban reading the Bible and study his heresy. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Junior Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Cindig: Apparently you believe that the Bible is complete, inerrant and 100% accurate, and that there are no other scriptures. Please tell me which version of the Bible is the one which you are so confident in that translation over all of the others. If it is the King James that you use, which of the 6 different versions do you use, and why that version? | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Junior Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Overseas: Just what do you know about the "lousy beginning of Mormons" which you weren't told by someone who hates Mormons? Care to bet about the horrendous things that I would "learn" about you -- things which you know are untrue -- if I asked people who don't like you what sort of person you are? Your post really doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm not a JW, and wicca is something else entirely. As far as the Bible coming up with doctrines close to Protestants/Evangelicals, please explain why there are so many separate Protestant churches, each with its own doctrine? What about "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"? Many Protestant churches don't even preach baptism in the first place, claiming that it is not necessary. It is often amusing to listen to the arguments between fervent Protestants of different cults, trying to prove that each is "more Christian" than the other. However, you have completely ignored the fact that I went point-by-point through FACTNet's list of things which identify a "cult," and shown that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't even fit a single one of them. . . .contrary to what you are told by your paid preachers and all the people who write hate literature . . . BTW, where in the Bible do you find any exhortation to pray and ask God if what you have been told is true? That's in the Book of Mormon, but not in the Bible. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Junior Member Username: overseas Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
Inerrancy of the Bible is a different topic. Just for now, it is enough for us all to note your view of 'not so reliable Bible'. There are not significant differences between Bible translations (except the falsified Jehova Witnesses version), not concerning important doctrines. Producing different translations is the work of honest God seekers that look for a better and better approach to the manuscripts of Scripture. Also it is a blessing that so many people learn the Bible's languages and we have several independent sources that converge in literal meanings. Based on Solopilot argument, Mormons would never succeed to translate the Book of Mormon in other languages properly enough so Mormons should quit missions in other countries. I challenge Mormons to show me what 'lethal' differences they have found between Bible translations. I already posted a FACT on another thread about Mormon literature recording how the founder (J. Smith) said contradictory stories about his first encounter with angelical visitors. That is a 'lousy beginning'. Please Solopilot tell the people here about Joseph Smith that found golden tablets (but tablets disappeared meanwhile) with an ancient writing that only him could read using magical glasses and how J. Smith was making spells with a magical stone in a hat and how many times J. Smith changed his story over time... Go on and amaze us. I suspect you are not even a sincere Mormon, because Mormons are not ashame of their story, they proclaim it even if it is illogical and based on some men charisma. But you... you avoid telling us that in the Mormon Temple when you are promoted to higher ranks you have to swear that in case you ever disclose Mormon secrets you accept that they kill you. Or you haven't got that far. I don't hate Mormons, I don't hate atheists, I only hate unsincere misleading people. Of course Mormons will never understand that the diversity of Protestant churches is the logical consequence of freedom of faith. Mormons are educated to love human control and centralization, not personal responsibility and personal conscience. Diversity of Protestants come from letting people attend another church and not calling them cultists only because you cannot control them. I got baptised when I quit being an atheist, baptism is for people that red Bible and accept Jesus. MORMONS BAPTISE PEOPLE THAT PRETEND THEY ACCEPT BAPTISM ON BEHALF OF SOME DEAD PEOPLE. THAT IS WICCA. If you are not JW or wicca, then JW and wicca are Mormons. I dealt with JW and they think like you, they are controlled like you and they had the same answer to me when I asked if I can be a good JW 'at home'/ not gathering together with them. Your wicca stuff is in the secrets you share behind the curtain, the under-clothes with magical signs that your chiefs wear and from J. Smith used magical glasses, mysterious gold tablets and magical stone. Go check old Mormon literature. Your point-by-point checklist of cult marks: my country was run by communists for 50 years and they were masters of deception, they did the same as you - washing people minds then ask for their support and prove the whole world there was democracy in my country. I can recognise communist style in your point-by-point checking. Tell you what: Solopilot if meet communists run fast cause they will take you apart, they are much better than you in this type of pretending to address things while lying big time. Just ask you: who voted for appointing J. Smith in the first time ? Again Solopilot, if you are sincere in your wrong belief, study communist thinking cause it is better than Mormons, communists led thousands million of people, your cult only 13 million. There are bad preachers, there are corrupt preachers (which should be condemned), but Mormons are a corrupt SYSTEM. You too pay your preachers. So just because you pay somebody is doesn't mean he will fool you. Do you use to pay your doctor ? Bible was before Book of Mormon and Book of Mormon was partly copied after Bible. Of course Bible (NT and OT) teaches to pray for not being mislead and receive God guidance. I invite others to post verses to you. If not I come back. You Mormons teach that people should pray and question obvious things in the bible, which is wrong. If Bible says plainly that Jesus is God and He was resurrected from dead, it is incorrect to pray if God relly ment to say this. Mormons say it is not enough to get an information from bible, but after that 'ask God' and accept something else if you have a 'godly feeling' as response. Who else knows about the secret Mormon 'hand shake' they try to give you to make you feel 'something magical' and tell you that is a sign from God. There is information in the Bible that is to be learned, not questioned and not prayed about its obvious meaning. For everybody: seeking if the Bible is reliable is different of seeking the meaning of the Bible. Mormons cannot throw away the Bible because gives them a 'christian face' and help fishing naives, but had to invent a complicated system to block bible influence in the church. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Junior Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 216.190.204.218 |
Consider Jude 25: "To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen" (NIV). "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen" (KJV). This is a pretty serious difference, and only one of many. Not to mention the differences between the various versions of the KJV, which (in the original version) included several other books (known as the "Apocrypha") and now does not. The KJV went through major alterations 6 times over the first two centuries after it appeared, not to mention the various other English translations. And nobody's Bible includes the Gospel of Thomas, nor Paul's REAL first epistle to the Corinthians (See 1Cor 5:9). So, you see that MY view of the "inerrant" Bible is shared not only by modern Biblical scholars, but also by Paul. That's a group that I will stand with against your paid preachers ANY day. Unfortunately nobody HAS the original manuscripts of the Scriptures. The oldest known manuscript was a copy, 200 years removed from the originals. The Bible itself wasn't compiled until the end of the 4th century AD. As a look at the KJV shows, even after the advent of the printing press, a 200-year period is plenty of time to change many things. I believe in the Bible, so far as it is translated correctly, but only an idiot would believe that any one particular translation includes all that God wants us to know, without errors. "Lethal" differences? How about the removal of a number of complete BOOKS fromthe KJV between 1611 and 1769? Some of these details, BTW, come from http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kjvo.htm, which is not an LDS site in any way. If that "fact" about different accounts (given to different audiences) proves him wrong, then so much for Paul in the first place, because HIS contradictory accounts came in one book of the Bible (read Acts). That means that a large chunk of the New Testament is "spurious," using your own criteria. If you throw away any scriptures because of the "magic glasses" (Urim and Thummim), then so much for the Old Testament from Exodus foreward. The "spells from the stone in his hat" story comes from a trial in which Joseph was found NOT GUILTY, on a charge brought by some men who were upset that their father was seeking advice from him. In the 1830s attacks on Mormonism and Joseph Smith, the trial was not mentioned at all -- it didn't become "important" until the end of the century, when all involved were long-since dead. Gee, Overseas, what do you know about the Temple that you weren't told by someone else? Your allegation is not true, but let me point out that, at each stage of the actual Temple ceremonies those involved take an oath TO GOD never to reveal outside the Temple what takes place. Now, that means that you are (mis)placing your faith in someone whom you must realize is either lying to you (for gain), or (if you believe that they are telling you the truth) violating a solemn oath TO GOD. Which scenario gives you more confidence in what they say? I also love the way the anti-Mormons always say that, since I have never seen what they say is "Mormon doctrine," I "just haven't been there long enough." Well, I've been here for 29 years and 3 months, and if an anti-Mormon can find out some "secret known only to those who have been there long enough" I sure would have learned it by now. I could do the same thing about any Protestant cult, and it would be just as true (if not more true). The diversity of Protestant churches is a result of the doctrines of man creeping in over the years. For that matter, the EXISTENCE of the Protestant cults in the first place is a result of the doctrines of men creeping into the Roman Catholic Church over the centuries. Or do you REALLY believe the absurd idea that Christ was born in the middle of winter, on the day of a PAGAN HOLIDAY? Oh, so you think that God would condemn BILLIONS of his children to whatever version of Hell you believe in, simply because they lived at the wrong time or place? During the 50 years that your country was under communism, a lot of people were born, lived and died without the chance to be baptised. Are they ALL doomed? According to your beliefs, they are. Gee, aren't you proud that you lived long enough, and too bad for them, ha? I don't think that I would have much respect for a god who would pin salvation or damnation on a quirk of birth. I believe that Jesus died for us ALL, not just the few lucky ones! As far as I know, wiccans don't baptise anyone at all, much less for the dead. If wearing clothes with "magical signs" (they aren't, BTW) is proof of heresy, then the Jewish base upon which Christianty is built is heretical. The Temple priests of the Exodus wore special clothes, with symbols to remind them of covenants and needs of the people. My "Temple garments" remind me of the covenants that I have made in the Temple, and of the symbology of true Christian worship and deeds. Your coming from another country explains the trouble that I'm having reading some of your sentences, so if I don't understand your meanings, please be patient with me. If you "recognize communist style in my point-by-point checking," then FACTNet's list of what makes a cult is likewise communist, because they "prove" things a cult based on that list. Who voted to appoint Joseph Smith head of the Church in the first place? Those present in that first meeting in New York did. When we vote to sustain someone to an office, we are asked for all in favor to raise our right hands, and then those opposed to manifest by the same sign. We vote on EVERYONE, from the President of the Church to the teenaged girl who might be called to help in the Nursery. We vote on Church officers twice each year (actually, four times, but on two separate occasions) at our worldwide General Conferences in October and April (then in our local meetings the next Sunday). No, we do NOT pay our preachers. Even our missionaries throughout the world pay their own way, or are supported by their families and neighbors. Our leaders have regular jobs, or are retired from their jobs. The vast majority of the people who do the administrative work, such as accounting, recordkeeping and so on, are not paid for this work. Some are, these provide continuity between the various volunteers who are called for a few months or a couple of years. Yes, I pay my doctor, but I never paid my dad for putting a bandage on an injury. Who had more interest in my well-being? As you are a fairly recent Christian, I would suggest that before you wind up your Bible-based attack on Mormonism, go study the history of Protestantism and the Councils of Carthage, which were the Catholic priests who decided what does and does not belong in the Bible. This will save us much time and typing. The Bible says plainly that Jesus is the SON of God. Jesus said this constantly throughout his ministry, and even before (such as when he was missing, and they found him talking with the wise men in the Temple, at the age of 12). He NEVER said that he was God, and he never even said that he was EQUAL to God -- quite the opposite -- and in fact asked God to "remove this cup," but said that he would be an obedient son if God didn't take it away. This belief that you have is one of the many doctrines of men which has come into Christian practices. This is why you MUST pray about doctrines and scriptures! Or do you think that God wants you to be an ostrich, head in your church and never questioning the things which you are taught? Isn't THAT the way the COMMUNISTS taught you to think? Never question authority, just accept what you are told and oppose all other thinking? There is no "secret Mormon handshake" to "make you feel something magical." Of course, if it's a secret, I would tell you -- but if it's a secret, how would the ANTI-Mormons find out about it? I want you to think about something. During the years under communism, you were told many things about the West, which you later found out were not true. You were expected to believe what the State told you, never question, because the State wanted your loyalty, however they could get it. How did you feel when you found out the truth? Now, you are being told things which are not true about Mormonism, and the feeling that you had a few years ago is probably the same feeling that I had when, as a young adult, I discovered that what I had been told about Mormons was wrong, and that I was told these things because the preacher and the people who sell the books and tapes wanted my money, however they could get it. And you are falling for it. Actually, not only do we not throw away the Bible, but we spend two years out of every four year studying the Old Testament and the New Testament. We read them from the beginning, verse by verse, in Sunday school and in other classes as well. This is also done in our universities as a prerequisite to earning a degree. The Book of Mormon does not replace the Bible in our worship, it is a second testament of the Savior, Jesus Christ, and His mission on Earth. You would know that, if you had actually read it. It's probably been translated into your native language, and if you can't get one locally, give me your mailing address and I will send you one (one advantage of living in Utah is easy access to the Church distribution warehouses). | ||
| overseas (overseas) Member Username: overseas Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 82.76.248.249 |
You cannot show a major difference in translations regarding: salvation by faith, deity of Jesus, moral standards. Anybody loking for facts on Mormons look on www.waltermartin.org. AsI said enough, I move my interest to other threads. Take care. | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Before you put much faith in Wally Martin, you might want to do some research on his history. He was "defrocked" (or whatever you would call it) over morality and oath-violation issues in the early 1950s. He called himself "Doctor" for years, then eventually went to a mail-order diploma mill, and *poof* instant PhD (Class of 1976). He claimed for years that his "extensive" knowledge of Mormonism came from a "secret library" which he inherited from his "ancestor," Brigham Young, yet claimed never to have said any such thing when he was proven to be no relation to Brigham Young and some Young descendants threatened to sue to get back any "library" in his possession. He used every distortion, half-truth and outright lie in the book (after all, he wrote the book). He used to have a couple of young men come to his lectures, who would say that they were Mormon missionaries and would be made to "admit" that Wally was telling the truth about the Church, and to tell some true doctrine in a way as to make everyone reject it. However, I knew one of those young men, he sat beside me in the Bible college and justified his lies as "necessary to save people from Satan's church." This, more than anything, made me curious about Mormonism. I wanted to see what kind of church was so bad that Christ wanted people to lie about it. No, Overseas, "Altered Walter" is not your best source for facts on ANYTHING. We used to say that his next books would be "Enforcing Free Agency" and "Rumors You Can Base Your Faith Upon," and our instructors said that his books were not to be used as reference material of any type. If even anti-Mormons teaching at a Bible college don't trust his anti-Mormon books, then you KNOW that there was something wrong. | ||
| overseas (overseas) Member Username: overseas Post Number: 76 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 164.143.240.33 |
Also find details on Dr. Martin doctor title and debate around it on www.waltermartin.org. Anyway, Dr. Martin is not my Saviour (Jesus is). | ||
| solopilot (solopilot) Member Username: solopilot Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 64.122.31.130 |
Lessee, you won't believe what I tell you about my church and its doctrines, but you believe what Wally Martin's acolytes (and heirs of his book royalties) tell you in his website . . ? What's wrong with this picture . . ? You might want to look at: http://www.lightplanet.com/response/martin.htm and try to corellate it with the official story. For someone who made such a big thing about every minor, perceived "contradiction" in Mormonism, he perhaps should have looked to the beam in his own eye first. "Beam"? The guy had the whole FOREST in his eye. No, Walter Martin is definitely NOT your savior, not in any way, shape or form. | ||
| godchild (godchild) Intermediate Member Username: godchild Post Number: 189 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 64.28.50.44 |
I didn't see anybody write that Walter Martin is their savior, did anyone else? Mormons Say they believe Christ is their savior, that they follow his teachings. Hogwash Joseph Smith said, "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. Neither John, Paul, Peter, Nor jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me yet." History of the Church Vol.5 pgs.408-409 Brigham Young said, "When Adam came into the Garden, he brought Eve, one of his wives. blah, blah. He is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Journal of Discourses Vol.1 Pg. 50 So much for sp's statement saying the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not meet the Factnet Criteria for being a cult!! | ||
| dean Junior Member Username: dean Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 63.201.99.202 |
These are ten trates of a Cult 1.Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. 2.No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. 3.No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement. 4.Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. 5.There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. 6.Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. 7.There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader. 8.Followers feel they can never be "good enough". 9.The group/leader is always right. 10.The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible. Does Mormonism have any of these trates??? if it does, then guess what? .......its a Cult. | ||
| inkorrekt Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 |
SOLOPILOT: Watch out where you are going. You can believe what the Mormon church feeds you. Ultimately Jesus Christ is going to judge you and me. Here is a challenge for you. You cannot believe the Bible and the book of Mormon. Why? Ifyou believe the Bible is the true word of God, you are warned NOT TO ADD ANYTHING TO THE BIBLE AS WELL AS REMOVE ANYTHING FROM THE BIBLE.Have you read the last chapter in the book of Revelation? No where in the Bible you are told that God came down to the planet Kolb to have sex with Mary and Jesus as well as Lucifer were born. This totally contradicts Bible. How can you be a Mormon and a Christian? You can only be either a Mormon or a Christian. But, not both.Walter Martin is not alone. EX MORMONS for jesus are former Mormons. One of them is a Bishop. Through him I learnt many unbiblical and dangerous practices. Mormon Church is certainly a cult. | ||
| praetorian Intermediate Member Username: praetorian Post Number: 129 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 70.89.75.242 |
In support of Inkorrekt: Please note that Mormons respond to the warning in Revelation, quoted by Inkorrekt above, by taking the position that since it was not the last book written in the Bible, that therefore the scripture has no force and cannot apply to them. However this is just plain wrong reasoning! While it is true that Revelation is not the last book written in the Bible, it is the last revelation given in the Bible, as to what will occur in the future, and no such mention of another revelation or supplement to come is mentioned or contained in the Bible or the Book of Revelation. Also, the Apostle John is the inspired writer of the Book of Revelation, written in about 96 CE, and the last three books in the Bible, is also by John, known as 1st John, 2nd John and 3rd John, which were written about two years or so later, in about 98 CE, therefore the prohibition referred to by Inkorrekt by John in Revelation does indeed apply. In further support of this, note what it says in Galatians 1:8 and 9, (written under inspiration by the Apostle Paul) “However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.” The Book of Mormon is considered a second or additional Testimony of Jesus Christ which is totally “beyond” and incompatible with the overall Bible message and scriptures above, not to mention the implication, that God must have missed something when having the Bible inspired in the first place, in order to do something else to fill in or go “beyond” what He missed! This is a human trait not a Godly trait. Also, Mormons would do well to note the timing of the writing of the book that was never published but well documented by the name of “Lost Manuscript” or Manuscript Lost” by Dr. Solomon Spaulding a professor who lived some time ago, who taught at Dartmouth University who wrote a book of fiction just prior to the Book of Mormon being released and left the Manuscript for the book with a printer, who later refused to print it, seeing no value in the book. The following is incontrovertible history; the printer, who refused to print it, had an employee by the name of Joseph Smith, who cleaned the floors etc. at the printer’s facility, who apparently could not read! What a coincidence, as the manuscript is near identical when compared to the Book of Mormon, and can indeed be viewed, if not yet removed from the Dartmouth University Library by the Mormon organization if they did not yet pay a high price for it to be removed!!! P | ||
| free_in_yeshua New member Username: free_in_yeshua Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.208.159.201 |
Mormonism as a Cult using Singer's criteria Observations on Mormonism as a Cult from former member and ward leader: A destructive cult tends to have an ethical double standard. There is no overt ethical double standard, but Utah has become the MLM scam capital. I don’t know if there is any more hypocrisy in Mormonism than in any other social group. A destructive cult has only two basic purposes: recruiting new members and fund-raising. They are starving their missionaries, keeping all people who have been baptized on their records even if they never again came to church, and coercing people to stay on the records. The greatest blessing of the temple, in their minds, is reserved for full tithe payers. There are books written on the subject of “Corporate Mormonism” and their wealth. A destructive cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the ONLY viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. That typifies Joseph Smith and the “modern day ‘prophets’” A destructive cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes. There is no appeal outside his or her system to a greater system of justice A destructive cult's leader is a self-appointed messianic person claiming to have a special mission in life. Joseph Smith claimed to see God, Jesus, apostles and to have a special commission. A destructive cult's leader centers the veneration of members upon himself or herself. Primary Program church wide in 2001 “Follow the Prophet” The GA’s are quoted several times more often than scriptures in all church writings. A destructive cult's leader tends to be determined, domineering, and charismatic. The early converts left their families to cross oceans and continents. Today there may be physical separation, but social ostracism if you are not a member of the church. | ||
| poopsie New member Username: poopsie Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 72.204.34.243 |
Hi I am new here my name is Lorraine. My sister has been with the Mormon church for 15 years now. I don't know much about the church really, I am glad for the information here though, it helps me to understand better. Thanks, Lorraine | ||
| inkorrekt Intermediate Member Username: inkorrekt Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2005 Posted From: 208.54.15.1 |
One Bishop of the mormon church was awealthy businessman. He had an affair with his secretary. He was divorced.His EX WIFE, a 2nd generation Mormon saw the hypocrisy in the church and left. then she became a Christian.Through her I came to know all their antibiblical practices. Mormons are not christians though they claim to be. They have wonderful families and are good people to be around. Yet, they worship a false God. In the old testament, prophets disobeyed God.They did not commit mistakes. What they did was total disobedience and they had the consequences for the disobedience. Revelation, the last book in the Bible commands the believers not to add anything to it. So, the book of mormon is extrabiblical and any such addition to the Bible is forbidden. Mormonism is antichristian |
