| Author | Message | ||
     grtgogetter New member Username: grtgogetter Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.178.64.142 |
Ok, I noted recently on some thread that I haven't been on here in several years, but I did take a considerable amount of time to catch up the other night. Although, I'm quite sure I didn't read EVERYTHING, so I'm sorry if this is a repeat thread or something. If so, perhaps someone could kindly direct me to the similar thread. Ok, so anyhow. My reason for posting is as many, if not everyone, that's left NTCC whether it be back in the 70s or as recent as a few weeks ago, it seems like all of us have left in quite a financial predicament. Of course I cannot account for anyone else that has left, but I know at the time we left we had been giving in many pledges, always paid over on tithe by quite a substantial amount as well as always gave liberally in the offerings (since we were workers and it was a small work). I can't outright say that I regret this however, it's just as another person posted, "We gave it as unto the Lord." And that I truly did. Oftentimes at the expense of my own household suffering quite a lot of hardship. No, I'm not whining, just stating a fact. Not just the monetary investment but our life's time investment that we put into serving God as best as at the time we knew how. Now all that being said, my life is totally not what it should be now. I am up front and honest with that. The life I live now is a mess and totally my own doing, but I wanted to post somewhere online with people that could perhaps relate and perhaps someone can help me by sharing their thoughts to getting back to where I know I should be. But first of all, I want to state was started my decline to my current state. While I was in NTCC, from the very first time I went to the home, I gave 110% of my heart to serving God...and unfortunately I found out most of it was actually unto men - but in my heart it was unto God. So anyhow, even when other's "compromised" I was the epitomy of what I thought I was supposed to be. To my shame reporting people and my wife to "the system" for anything that in my mind went against the most holy reich of NTCC. I seriously was so brainwashed up until about 2002 that I literally did hold all of the "men of God" as practically God in the flesh. And I treated their rules to that extent. Because of this, I was always tortured with self-condemnation because in spite of everything I never felt pure enough to be "like them". And the funny thing is, the whole time I was crap to them anyhow. Ok, I'm getting a little side-tracked...sorry. :o) Without going into a ton of details that probably don't really matter now, we saw a lot of junk that caused us to begin to wake up and our eyes to open to the true character and intent of the leadership of the church. Still with a fire in our hearts to serve God, preach, pastor and do God's will, we prayed. We prayed fervently and our decision was even confirmed by an 3rd party who had no idea of our thoughts or intents who shared a vision they had of just what we were about to do. To be continued... | ||
| grtgogetter New member Username: grtgogetter Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.178.64.142 |
All great and grand right? So we thought. So we left, went back to Washington...and fell flat on our faces. Financially everything went to crap. We were already in so much tremendous debt because of our "sacrifices" while in the church (in spite of clearing $50K/yr while in the church) that we couldn't even get a place to live. I went about 8 months without a job and at first we lived in a hotel and eventually in a bug infested house because it was free. I prayed and prayed and prayed and nothing. I know all the NTCCers on here say it's because "I left the will of God...His one and ONLY true church." Yeah, whatever. I was seeking God long before I ever went to your church. Anyhow, I prayed and even a year after leaving I still upheld a "holiness" lifestyle just because I was trying to be "right with God". But there were no blessings. Not even any small ones really. Some of our closest family members died. Our families which we pushed away while in the church because "they weren't saved" received us somewhat reluctantly and failed in no way to bring up the way we had treated them. I suppose partly what kept me living "holiness" was the fact that I had lived that way in front of them for so long and whether I felt it necessary before God or not, I did not want to lose face to them. But it didn't matter anyhow because they and many still saw it as God not blessing us whether while we were in NTCC or out. I prayed a lot during this time...probably more than while in the church. Seemed like the more I prayed the more things got worse. One day I felt like God spoke to me while I was praying...not that I should have trusted it since every time I thought God spoke to me in NTCC I was told I was wrong. Anyhow, I feel like I'm rambling but I honestly am coming to a point eventually. :o) So, with this prayer I felt that God spoke to me with, the wife and I made a drastic move and took what little we had left now and moved to Connecticut...where we ended up basically homeless and living in a Days Inn for some time and where my wife's back went out to the point where she was crawling on her hands and knees screaming just to get to the bathroom. I cried out to God and of course nothing. I still could barely get a job enough to keep our room. I eventually re-joined the Army as a last resort since I couldn't get a steady income. By the time I got to my duty station I really began to feel my anger towards God for what I felt as forsaking me. Eventually, I honestly just said "screw it". Why live a life a certain way when for one I'm not even sure what God wants anyway anymore, and two, all of the labor I invested for God got me crap anyhow. So, I wont go into all the "evil" I've done or become but right now I will say I'm completely lost and confused and still actually quite angry. Angry at NTCC? Yes. But angry at God to because I don't understand why he would let me be so stupid as to waste nearly a decade of my life (my forming years at that) and then turn around and life just go to hell even more. So what is my point? What on earth is it I want? I want someone, who I doubt anyone could really answer, to just give me a glimpse of hope that perhaps God does care and perhaps I haven't wasted my life and perhaps there will come a day when I do know what on earth God actually DOES expect from a "christian" based on His word. Now all said, I still love God and I still want to do something for Him someday even though, as I said, I am literally nothing right now. I just am confused. Anyhow, I'll shut up. Perhaps someone has some input...perhaps not. You can email me if you'd prefer at grtgogetter@yahoo.com Kevin Oravits | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.58 |
Do you have a phone number to be reached at? I would rather talk than write. Chief. | ||
| nbrown New member Username: nbrown Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 75.170.120.71 |
Kevin, We moved into your old apt in Puyallup years ago. You gave us an old cooler you didn't want, and I still use it to pack my husband's lunches seeing "Oravits" in faded permanent ink everyday. I read your post slowly to make sure I understood it. (I went to your myspace page too) I know exactly what you mean when you say you feel like praying doesn't do anything and no matter how hard you try serving God, there are no blessings. I understand your anger and i've been looking for the same hope and answers you are. I don't have much to offer except my understanding and to tell you you are not "nothing". That's what I really dislike about Christianity in some ways - at least in some of the ways that people teach it - they make you think you have to fit a certain mold or all hope is lost. It's not about holiness, what's important is who you are inside and the fact you are still looking for hope says a lot. I quit praying and started doing. I started a notebook with things I want to accomplish and things that are hopefull to me. You are NOT stupid for being in ntcc for 10 years. It was a mistake and you learn from your mistakes right? So you grow and learn. And all these people who damn others to hell, they don't know what they are talking about and more than likely, they are doing the same things they preach against. So you can just throw that all out the window. What about all that computer experience you had? I can still picture in my mind your smiling face as you left the apt to us and headed to California. So, with that image in my mind, I know this post isn't much, but I didn't want to just ignore it and not say anything. Just hang in there and don't give up looking for hope. You're in the same boat as many of us... and it can really hurt at times, but I'm not going to quit looking for hope and answers. Our mood may be disappointed (I guess that's a myspace thing) but we just can't give up. Nicole | ||
| grtgogetter New member Username: grtgogetter Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.178.64.142 |
chief...right now, I honestly don't feel like a phone call...plus I wont post it on here. I've made a lot of enemies. =) But you can email me at grtgogetter@yahoo.com and I could send it to you. I have a 4-day weekend coming up and perhaps we could talk then. Perhaps include who you are in the email though so I know who I'm talking to. nbrown...I hope ya'all send me a friend request on myspace. =) Thanks for your response. Really. Oh, and glad the cooler is still helpful. hahah | ||
| chief Junior Member Username: chief Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.39 |
Bud, all that I can reference from a biblical standpoint is the Book of Job. Look what he went through. God allowed it to happen. Job had a lot of faith but his faith didn't stop him from loosing virtually everything. However in the end we find God still looking out for him. Often, remaining like Job is easier said than done but it is what it is. The one thing that I have not let the NTCC leadership do is break me financially because they would have, had I let them. NTCC was no where to be found when most of these ministers went broke most likely with few exceptions. The fact is I don't want a handout from NTCC. I worked in the Army and I haven’t let the NTCC's schedules result in me missing work now that I am out. I have a family to provide for and the folks in the NTCC aren’t going to do it for me. Because when you are hi and dry buddy, you are in most cases on your own in the NTCC. Ministers with messed up credit, a broke down car, no health insurance, never owning anything, eating ramen noodles and spam and do you think the NTCC leadership cares? The only think they are interested in is weather your escrow account is fat at the expense of Pastor’s well being and his congregation. James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled: notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body: what doth it profit? I read your story with sadness. You may have given all as unto God but you gave it to a organization that does not follow the bible concerning giving to the poor who their organization if filled with, or doing good unto those who are of the household of faith which in this case are frequently monetarily poor and in the NTCC. This church is totally messed up. The NTCCs practices concerning the handling and distribution of money by design will regularly make preachers go BROKE. | ||
| nbrown New member Username: nbrown Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 75.170.120.71 |
Oh and Kevin... you keep pushing it out here so I'll state the obvious; if you are sincere and you really mean what you say, you would take down a webpage that talks about killing stupid people and has pornographic images. I've been trying to be nice... so don't ruin it. =) | ||
| weezer Junior Member Username: weezer Post Number: 45 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.6.207.132 |
i have to run right now, can talk more soon. but i too have wondered and felt about the wasted years. i look at it as a joseph experience where joseph was sold into slavery and went through alot which at the time i'm sure he wondered similar things, yet in hindsight he could see why God had things happen that way. the joseph i'm talking about is in the OT where he took care of his family later on in the famine. more later | ||
| tracypelfrey Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 96 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.6.250 |
Kevin held a dubious distinction while in Bible College...he had to be...the male record holder...and maybe even THEE record holder of most pages typed. I thought that I took notes fast...and I used Gregg Shorthand...mixed in with some of my own. But this guy...was a note-taking wonder. I'm not sure what that will get you now...or if you could include that distinction on a resume...but most of us were impressed by you at the time. Of course, we were all easily impressed by the fast-note taker in Bible College. What a bunch of geeks we were. When my husband and I left Washington for Pittsburgh on January 2, 1995...I had not finished Bible College yet. I only had 19 credits. Several of us ladies were sent out without finishing. We were told we would get credit out "on the field". I can't figure out then...why I had to finish the whole 45 credits when i returned in 1998 and I completed my Bible College...*ahem*...education. We really came back to Graham because of intense medical problems we were experiencing in Pittsburgh. Rachel started having seizures at age 4. (when we arrived in Pittsburgh, she had recently turned 3). I had heart trouble mixed with acid reflux (which mimics a heart attack) and my husband had trouble too. Diana must have been the thread which held us together. When I returned to Graham...I finished school and the only thing I enjoyed about it...was meeting all of the new students. Oravits was in one or more of my classes...and he was taking notes so effortlessly and so quickly. I was averaging about 21 or more pages a class. I'm sure he had that or more also. He was very diligent. Kevin, I'd like to email you privately about your post above. For many of us...we would just have to substitute our names into your situation...and most of the details would be the same. I would just encourage you to not blame God. Please don't do that. You know...the whole nasty thing about mind control is that...IT'S...WELL...MIND CONTROL. These folks took our zeal and our excitement and our youth and took advantage of it for their own personal greedy and lusty agenda. We are not robots being controlled by remote control where God is concerned. I don't have to tell you that. Also, I know that He used many people and many circumstances to woo us away from that place...but the fact is...Davis knows how to use that to his advantage. He told us that was the devil, etc. We all know the tactics used. I don't have to enumerate them here. I think it is somewhat of a cop out to blame God. Why does anyone have to be blamed? Who did we blame for our mistakes before coming to this group? It is a Cult Kevin. A cult. It uses the mind to manipulate people to get what they want. TO BE CONTINUED... | ||
| tracypelfrey Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.6.250 |
I wish you'd read some of what is out there about Cults and the leaders who run them. Read about sociopaths like Davis. Read about Narcissistic Leaders...like Davis. If we take responsibility for every other action in our lives...why do we dump this one on God's doorstep? Because it is of a religious nature? Then God should...what? Strike all these people down with a bolt of lightning? We got involved in this group and stayed involved because we were manipulated and coerced and our good intentions were used for evil. That is just not the Lord's fault. I did a lot of assanine things before coming to the Lord, but alas being saved didn't save me from making some dumb decisions. Or save me from doing some very stupid things...whose fault was that?...once i was saved? Mine or God's? He does speak to us in the middle of things...sometimes we aren't willing to hear...and sometimes...we were manipulated to believe those thoughts originated with the devil. I understand the desire to lay blame...somewhere...anywhere. To hold onto the anger towards this group...most especially those in leadership...(who know very well what they are doing and yet continue to do so...because their minds and consciences are seared)...but it isn't worth holding onto Kevin...it does not serve us well in this AFTER LIFE. We have to be thankful to be out and make our way towards recovery. We have the tools and information at our disposal to never get involved in anything like this again. Sadly though, I know of those who rebound right into another controlling religious group. Some people just seem to WANT to be controlled. You are out Kevin. You are young. You have the whole world ahead of you. I assume a wife at your side to help you through the process. We live in the greatest country in the world...as far as taking our dreams as far as we want. Don't stall your progress by "stalling"...by allowing your engine to poop out in mid-air. By remaining static in your thinking regarding God and this group. If you think upon it, I'm sure you'll see how many times the Lord did intervene on our behalf...but getting out was something we simply HAD to be convinced of in our own mind. It didn't matter how many posts I read on Factnet back in 2004 about this group. I was a loyal fanatic...and I wasn't consuming their words in a thoughtful manner...I was just regurgitating what had been programmed into me...in defense and thereby showing to the Factnet world how much of a cult follower I really was. I hate going back and reading my words from that time...it makes me want to throw up. I can recall many, many times when God came to our rescue. But, we chalked up the blessing to being in this group and being a part of God's body. God was blessing us...but in turn...we had to dutifully turn over our blessings to the organization...and we did it willingly...why? Because we were part of a stinking cult. Good golly miss molly...we have to see that. Anytime the Lord blessed us with a good job or better pay or a promotion...this group had us manipulated to actually turn away God's blessings and woo-ings...because it would keep us out of church or some such nonsense. Had our husbands been able to follow some of those promotions and blessings...who knows where God would have led. TO BE CONTINUED... | ||
| tracypelfrey Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.6.250 |
Kevin...it's just that...if you are going to think about all of this at all...then look at it from both sides. Not just the negative. Not just the side that says..."Why God?" And put yourself in God's shoes for a moment. Maybe, when you do that...you'll see the times He tried...but we "fluffed" Him off...or blew Him off...or pushed it aside or repressed the thoughts HE PUT IN OUR MIND ABOUT LEAVING...long before we ever did. For some of us...we wanted to leave within the first week, but we didn't. Allow yourself to see it all in a balanced way. That's all. I want to see you and your family do well. Please, just think twice before getting all up in God's face about this. Your anger at this group and what they've done in your life and in the lives of others can be put to a more productive use. It really can. All GOD's best to you and your wife. Tracy I'll shoot an email your way. | ||
| biblegirl1999 Intermediate Member Username: biblegirl1999 Post Number: 244 Registered: 6-2005 Posted From: 79.199.56.123 |
Kevin as I was reading Tracy's response to you, I was also thinking about what an awesome testimony you and your wife will have to tell once you are out of this 'valley'. I think God is 'polishing' you up so to speak and causing these trials to make you stronger, to draw you closer to Him than ever before. He is about to pour out a blessing on you and your wife, don't give up now! That's what satan wants you do to. To blame God and give up. satan is a liar and theif and he is trying to rob you of your walk with God. Don't let him Kevin, don't give him that opportunity. You know that God loves you so very much. I mean, He knew you before He created you...He has the number of hairs on your head numbered. He loves you so much. I want to see you make it to Glory...as do these other folks here...don't give up...not now. It's time to kick off that old run down attitude and begin fresh in Christ. God be with you... ~ Dawn ~ | ||
| grtgogetter Junior Member Username: grtgogetter Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.178.64.142 |
"Oh and Kevin... you keep pushing it out here so I'll state the obvious; if you are sincere and you really mean what you say, you would take down a webpage that talks about killing stupid people and has pornographic images. I've been trying to be nice... so don't ruin it. =)" nbrown - Apparently I missed something here. For one, I didn't realize I wasn't being nice to you. Secondly, I'm honestly not sure what I "keep pushing out here." Regarding the whole webpage thing...well, the killing stupid people is obviously a joke (perhaps you're humor impaired and didn't realize that.) - I like to joke around a lot. Surely you didn't think I was promoting killing people? That would be crazy. And as far as pornographic images...I'm really at a loss for that one, unless you're referring to some comments people posted. If so, well, they posted it not me. But really, it doesn't even matter to me. I spent the first 28 years of my life trying to watch everything I said and did just to make sure I didn't offend anyone or keep anyone from being my friend, only in the end to have none anyhow. So, I am just me. I don't hide who I am. I don't claim to be anything I'm not. I don't try to be something or do something or act any certain way to placate people for their favor. If people like me just as I am, then that's the kind of people I want to be friends with anyhow. Since I've changed to be like this, I've gained some pretty good friends. So, if you don't like my myspace (which is I assume the webpage you're referring to) then...don't go look at it anymore. I guess this probably didn't sound nice. I apologize. I'm not trying to be rude...just frank. =) | ||
| grtgogetter Junior Member Username: grtgogetter Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.178.64.142 |
chief, tracy, biblegirl and weezer, Thank you all for your comments and comforting words. It gives me lots to think about and hope. It all kind of made me think of something they say in AA meetings, "Taking life on life's terms and sometimes life on life's terms sucks." I know God loves me. There have been times in the last year or two where I felt the presence of God for absolutely no reason and I definitely wasn't living in a way where I would have expected Him to do so. So I know there's still hope for me. My wife tells me I'm lucky because I have something that a lot of people that went to NTCC never had and that is an experience with God before going to their church. In all honesty, it's that experience that has helped me to not stop believing in God altogether. I really do hope that some day, preferrably soon (lol), things will change and I will reconnect with God. And yes, biblegirl, it would be quite a story. Maybe I'll write a book. ;o) "NTCC was no where to be found when most of these ministers went broke most likely with few exceptions." chief - I'll have to take issue with this statement though. Myself not included, I personally know multitudes of people that went into debt in service to NTCC. From reading some of your posts it doesn't sound like you went to Bible School - I'm not sure. But I can tell you that anyone that was at the Bible school or was on the ministry side of things definitely knows that many preachers went into debt either pastoring or helping. If you've read the posts about the offerings and so forth, you'll see that most of what pays for the NTCC churches isn't the congregation so much as the ministers - at least in the smaller works, which is mostly what NTCC has. I used to keep the books as a church member and as a helper so I do have a little knowledge of those things. Anyhow, just thought I'd share my thoughts with ya on that one. :o) | ||
| victorjohanson Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
""NTCC was no where to be found when most of these ministers went broke most likely with few exceptions." chief - I'll have to take issue with this statement though." I don't think he means that NTCC had nothing do do with them going broke; my take is that he means NTCC stood by and DID nothing when they could have helped. So you're not really taking issue at all. Is that right, Chief? | ||
| chief Junior Member Username: chief Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 209.12.5.26 |
I think that you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant the leadership in the NTCC and specifically the head honchos that handle the money. In other words in Washington. Why is the leadership letting Pastors go broke when there is money in escrow. That is what I was referring to when I said, "NTCC was no where to be found when most of these ministers went broke most likely with few exceptions." That is right, multitudes of people did go in dept. They shouldn’t have gone in dept when a fat account exists in Washington. Once again when I say, "NTCC", I mean the leadership that manages the funds in Washington. Do you understand what I was saying now? | ||
| chief Junior Member Username: chief Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 209.12.5.26 |
Vick you are exactly right. I should probably be more specific when I refer to the "NTCC", while writing these messages. I mean the leadership in Washington. The leaders that make all of the decisions that sit on the board. Good to hear from you Vick, Chief. (Message edited by chief on January 16, 2008) |
