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intransition
Member
Username: intransition
Post Number: 59
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 68.113.151.130
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:18 pm: | 
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Nab mentioned in a previous post that doctrine is not the issue but, rather, it is the human condition.
I want to say RIGHT ON. Doctrinal issues are a smoke screen to avoid the real issues of life. Consider the last 2000 years of Christianity. Consider the various religions of the world. And consider the past and current world conflicts.
Doctrinal issues cannot and will not ever be answered. Something cannot be known or proven until it is part of present reality. Until then it is only speculation - faith at best.
But, it is the real issues of life, the existential struggle that must be dealt with in the hear and now. We all struggle to understand the meaning of our lives. We all struggle to become what is in us to become. And we all struggle with our interpersonal relationshps.
Personally, the issues of doctrine concerning the TT do not bother me at all. It is the issues of life's everyday struggle that concern me.
FOAK mentioned that he left because he had no voice. This is the common denominator among those who left. Some of us are angry and others are apologetic - but the real issues have to do with suppressing the human voice.
There is a lot said in the TT concerning this. It is said that "we must listen to the least among us" and outsiders are challenged to consider how their human voice has been silenced.
But, in the everyday life of the TT, that is the real issue and why most of us here have left. |
intransition
Member
Username: intransition
Post Number: 61
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 68.113.151.130
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:47 pm: |
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Most of us came to the TT in response to a message about love. We willingly laid down our lives, surrendering our possessions and opinions. Our doctrine was among our possessions that we surrendered because we recognized the truth that love is really the answer to all questions. We intuitively knew that love fills the emptiness that our possessions occupy.
We left because we also understand that love truly requires the freedom of expression and the reverence of all humanity.
And we find it hard to let go because there is something in us that holds on to a deeper message of love. We continue to long for a life where love truly rules.
But love can only rule where freedom allows the full struggle of life. Otherwise only control, addiction, abuse and other forms of human and relational dysfunction will rule - and doctrine too. |
john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 165
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.209.113
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:09 pm: |
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Intransition -
The word and meaning of "doctrine", like the word and meaning of "Christian" has been perverted by centuries of apostasy. If I believed that a consideration of doctrine was a strictly academic, mental exercise, then I would agree wholeheartedly with everything you write above.
But to me, doctrine is just a fancy word for "the way we live and serve God". It therefore should always be directly connected to the day to day, real life experience of the human condition. You point to love and your desire that love become the driving force of the universe. This is my great desire also. I think the most glorious line in the whole Bible comes from the Christ when he says, "Love one another as I have loved you."
Technically speaking, this verse is a "doctrine". And the meaning and the depth and the ramification we choose to find in this "doctrine" will be the difference between a suppressed human voice and a free one. It will be the difference between responding to the needs of the human condition and ignoring them.
John S. |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 94
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:29 pm: |
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I agree that most go to the TT in response to the message about love, and the demonstration (experience) they see of it being lived out. I guess it all comes down to how you define love. Is it love if what we experience when we visit the TT is a false front, a veneer for the "outside" to see?
It seems as humans we are wired to have our feelings/emotions in sync with our belief system. Whatever we define as love is definitely linked to our feelings/emotions. This is why coercive controlling groups use cognitive dissonance to manipulate both (emotions and beliefs). So humans are attracted to communal life due to the love they see being lived out. So much so, they are willing to leave their beliefs (doctrines) at the door and accept whatever the leadership of the commune offers as long as we can get in on the love.
So what is the answer a Godless commune void of belief/doctrine? Is there such a thing that is successful? Do we have to throw out God with the bath water? Is it really God's fault that men deceive and men are deceived?
I'm not trying to argue with you, I hope you can sense that. You really stirred something up in me with your post and I am just speaking outloud in response to develop my own thinking on this matter.
I hope I don't get slapped down by the thought sheriff for "voicing" my opinion again. |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 95
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:30 pm: |
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nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 94
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 2:16 pm: |
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"Love one another as I have loved you."-Yahshua
"Spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth, if all else fails, use words(Doctrine?)!"-unknown
"You point to love and your desire that love become the driving force of the universe. This is my great desire also." -John_S
Well John, why not start right here and work your way up to the universe? |
intransition
Member
Username: intransition
Post Number: 62
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 68.113.151.130
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 2:37 pm: |
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I am not throwing God out - I just think that we don't have to put God in the box of our doctrine. I think that God can better be defined in our existential struggle to love.
You are absolutely right, voo, that the appearance of love can be a false front. My point is that love needs to be evident where the rubber meets the road of life's struggle.
When our struggle is not addressed in an open and honest way, when it is not part of our conscious awareness and communication, the subconscious and unconscious processes of our minds will rule our life. We might have the understanding and the words, but the reality will be lacking.
Again, control. addiction, abuse, and other forms of human and relational dysfunction will rule. |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 97
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 3:18 pm: |
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intransition - I totally agree with you there. |
azariah
New member
Username: azariah
Post Number: 1
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 75.104.128.56
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 4:40 pm: |
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Part-1:}The Twelve Tribers claim that the Holy Spirit has been witheld from man for 1900 yrs. They say that only by joining their body can one recieve it. Their "sheperds" claim that they have the Holy Spirit and that because of that they are qualified to tell you what Gods will is for you. My Saviour tells me that the Comforter will come, The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in His name and he will teach me all things and bring all things to my remembrance,and whatever he has said to me in His Word.John14:26. He also said that if he departed that He would send the Comforter to me. "And when He is come, He will Reprove the World of sin (not just the Twelve Tribes alone) and of rightousness and of judgement: of sin, because they believe not on me;(Who? the Twelve Tribes clans? I thought they claimed to believe on Him?, No, the world! the lost!) Of rightousness, because I go to my Father and ye see me no more;(He is no longer our visable example) of judgement because the prince of this World is judged".John 16: 7-11. |
azariah
New member
Username: azariah
Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 75.104.128.56
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 4:42 pm: |
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Part 2:And in Rom.5:16,17 we get "Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh; and these things are contrary to one the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would"
This is the voice of your conscience,the Holy Spirit at work here. You do not ever totally surrender you mind to another individual or group! "But the anointing which ye have recieved of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you; but as the same annointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in Him".
"Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord" Jer.17:5.
There is a short period at the beginning of our walk as demonstrated in 1cor.3:4-7(paraphrased: "one guy says 'I got taught by Paul', another says 'I follow Apollos'" Paul says: Aren't you guys trusting in the flesh? Who are Paul and who are Apollos except just ministers that God gave you when you first believed at the onset of your walk just like He does for every man.I have planted and Apollos watered, but God giveth the increase". This is also demonstrated where one might need some help in understandiing the Gospel such as in Acts 8: 27 with Philip and the Ethiopian, but after the understanding and the baptisim (all in the same day, by the way) were given the Ethiopian went on his way rejoicing.
If you pick up a bible and with a sincere heart seek for God, I'll guarantee that the Holy Spirit will show up,and not just an angel as the Tribers will tell you. And as long as you base your beliefs on the Word of God and not just the words of someone claiming to "have the only truth" you be led safely to where HE wants you to be.
There is nothing wrong with counseling with others, but remember "The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets for God is not the author of confusion" 1 Cor 14:32,33. If it isn't backed up by the word of God, then beware! Study the Word for your self line upon line Isa 28:10. Like the noble Bereans in Acts 17:11 who recieved teaching with "all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so.
When reading the Twelve Tribes literature,If you have any good familiararity with the scriptures, you will find more misappropriations and misapplications than you can imagine.
And if they tell you that doctrine isn't important, don't believe it because it is the way we discern the path of light unto salvation and also the way we discern the sophistries, deceptions and pitfalls of Satan's devisings. The abominations and fornications that the Woman has in the golden cup as she rides the beast in Rev.17:4 is false doctrine.
Satan will make the path of error so closely resemble the path of truth that only by close familiarity with the Word of God and enlightenment by the Holy Spirit will we be safe. He will introduce strong and impressing truths(he knows the bible by heart) that capitivate us at first, and after gaining our trust, begins to weave in his error.
Yoneqs Twelve Tribe system is more like group therapy counseling where you become better at tolerating each other and adept at covering your true feelings rather than the true miracle of God's grace changing of the heart by the gentle, patient impressions and indwelling of the Holy Spirit that brings you along at a pace it decides, (that's why it comes, lists, intermittantly when its instructing us, John 3:8), and not according to someones constant browbeating and judging. We were givin the Holy Spirit, not Yoneq or the poor souls that fell into the same trap.
I've got more, much more. Want to hear it?
Azariah |
intransition
Member
Username: intransition
Post Number: 63
Registered: 1-2005
Posted From: 68.113.151.130
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 5:07 pm: |
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Azariah - maybe you could start a new thread if you want to preach. Your obviously missing the point. |
nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 99
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 6:17 pm: |
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I'll pass... |
voocitd
Intermediate Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 101
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 8:12 am: |
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So Azariah. What is your story? Are you a family member of someone in the TT? Or just someone investigating and not liking what you see? Let's start there and then see where we can go. |
john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 169
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.208.51
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 11:40 am: |
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Intransition wrote:
--- When our struggle is not addressed in an open and honest way, when it is not part of our conscious awareness and communication, the subconscious and unconscious processes of our minds will rule our life. ---
In my experience in Massachusetts, Vermont and New York, I found an openness amongst members to talk about their struggles. But to some extent, it was only a certain _kind_ of struggle that was discussed. "I really struggle with selfishness sometimes, I really struggle with submitting to good authority sometimes...", etc.
What did you see as the "restricted" struggles of the human condition? What kinds of pain and confusion did you feel unable to voice within the group?
John S. |
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