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john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 160
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.212.150
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 7:42 pm: | 
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voocitd wrote:
--- I use the Word of God only (in my world that is the Bible). I try not to spin it as to fall into the same trap as Yoneq. I think it speaks for itself or rather God speaks through it. ---
The only thing more stunning to me than these statements is the idea that you quite probably, sincerely believe them. Your blinders are firmly in place.
Here is the reality... As a Christian, you perform the exact same doctrinal backflips and somersaults as Yoneq to "reason away" the clear meaning of scripture. The difference lies only in which scriptures you and he pick for the acrobatics.
You both refuse to accept the literalness of those passages which stand in clear opposition to your lifestyles. Because your religious lifestyles are very dissimilar, you can "see" it when Yoneq plays fast and loose with the Bible. But when you and the teachers you admire manipulate _different_ texts in the exact same way, you are blind to it.
Here's a quick demonstration.
"Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you." (Gal. 5:2)
"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says 'I know him' but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1Jn. 2:3-4)
Now here is your assignment, Voocitd. Please interpret these two biblical passages. Explain how Paul and John's teachings should be properly applied in a believer's life.
Show us what it means to not "spin" and instead, let the scripture "speak for itself".
John S. |
nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 86
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 7:51 pm: |
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The problem in the TT is not doctrinal nor dogmatic.
It is the human condition that is not addressed and is actually shunned, silenced and stuffed... |
truth_seeker
New member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 19
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 9:01 pm: |
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Good assignment John!
What do you think about circumcision?
Are you for it, or against it, or indifferent,
and do your reasons have anything to do with
your faith? |
fatherofaking
Junior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 71.255.151.176
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 9:36 pm: |
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the scripture is to be experienced (lived) not interpreted.
there is no right "doctrine".
doctrine implies that we all see things exactly the same way.
when that is possible let me know.
we can then shut down this message board and we can all come together as one.
we may have similar experiences but that is as far as it goes.
who is it that can tell me how to interpret the bible?
how is it that i am to tell you how to interpret the bible?
the supreme court cannot even come to complete agreement on the meaning of the constitution.
we are expected to do that with the bible?
scripture can only be understood through our life experience, just like anything else.
we interpret every thing that way, scripture is no exception.
one sees circumcision as beneficial, one sees it as unnecessary.
who is right?
ask two doctors.
ask your rabbi.
ask your pastor.
how many opinions do you want?
who decides what is right?
we can be pretty sure that the bible teaches us not to harm one another.
anyone want to have a philosophical discussion on what that means?
even discussing it from a biblical perspective there will be disagreement.
again i ask, who decides? |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 83
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 11:39 pm: |
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John_S - You want to take scripture out of context and make an argument that it contradicts itself? You think yourself quite the intellectual. And yet in all your postings on this site, you argue for and against the TT. You are certainly against Christianity as it is demonstrated in the world today. You continually attempt to demean and intimidate people you disagree with, while in the same breath condemn them for disagreeing with others.
You criticize me for disagreeing with the TT doctrine as it compares to the scriptures and the fruit they demonstrate. Yet who was it that said, "And to the TT their communal lifestyle is their big selling point – the “sign” of their spiritual legitimacy. But I was more interested in the soundness of their doctrine and its consistency with the scriptures." and "As for the TT’s other “contradictions”, there are two basic types: The contradictions between what they preach and what they practice, and the contradictions between what they teach and what Messiah and the apostles taught." - John_S 12/5/2006
You are also the one that said, "Personally, I am seriously considering a return (with my family) to the community I joined at 21, and have been away from for 15 years - the Bruderhof. In two weeks my wife and son and I will be traveling to Pennsylvania to spend some time there and see where God might lead things.
Though I have been an outspoken public critic of the Bruderhof since being sent away from it, I can still say that the most humble, loving and selfless people I have ever met live there. I can also say that the greatest fulfillment (spiritually speaking) I have ever experienced came while I was a member there. - 9/29/06
and "The fact is, there are always a fairly high percentage of people drawn to such groups for primarily physical reasons; their spiritual convictions playing a much more minor role.
People in this category are drawn to community living, not to the gospel of Christ. But they will accept the spiritual aspect of a Christian commune as part of the bargain, much like agnostic homeless folks will sit through sermons at the shelter so they can get their 3 hots and a cot."
So I could choose to take your bait and argue with you, but you do a good enough job of arguing with yourself. So good luck catching your leprechaun somewhere else. |
nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 88
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 12:40 am: |
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Are you two done wrastling? Now go on in the house and get cleaned up cuz supper is almost ready... |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 84
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 8:37 am: |
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john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 161
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.212.141
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 1:54 pm: |
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Voocitd -
You have done exactly what you accuse members of the TT of doing: Excuse yourself from a biblically-based discussion because you don't view the questioner spiritually "worthy" of your time and effort.
You claimed that your entire authority for attacking the TT lay in the Word of God. I asked you to interpret two simple passages from the Bible and you refuse. What does that say about your discernment? Perhaps you have an inflated impression of yourself as a teacher, when you may really be just as wind-tossed - in your way - as those you wish to rescue.
There is no contradiction in the scriptures I quoted, either. I did not pick them because they have an appearance of opposition. Perhaps you didn't understand the explanation I laid out at the beginning of the assignment. I will try again another way.
The passage from Galatians is one that evangelical Christians commonly use as a proof-text against Yoneq's Twelve Tribes doctrine.
The passage from 1John is one that Yoneq and the Twelve Tribes commonly use as a proof-text against evangelical Christian doctrine.
Now I believe that both scriptures are very clear and easily comprehended. We simply accept their most logical and literal meaning. Exactly as the writers - not seeking to confuse or confound their readers - obviously intended.
There are only two types of individuals who cannot or will not let these scriptures speak for themselves, because they have a “dog in the fight“, as it were:
a) Those who practice the rite of Mosaic circumcision.
b) Those who believe that one’s personal relationship to Jesus does not stand or fall on the basis of obedience to his teachings.
Yoneq fits into category “a”, while you fit into category “b”.
The whole exercise was meant to show that BOTH the Twelve Tribes AND mainstream Christians blatantly manipulate/ignore scripture when and where it suits them. They just manipulate and ignore DIFFERENT scriptures.
My verdict on the exercise? Successful!
John S. |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 87
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 2:10 pm: |
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nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 90
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 3:09 pm: |
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Ok, just for the entertainment value of it...
Paul continued with...
"I once more protest and testify to every man who receives circumcision that he is under obligation and bound to practice the whole of the Law and its ordinances.
If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated, severed, from Messiah. You have fallen away from grace, from God's gracious favor and unmerited blessing."
The TT picks and chooses which parts of the "Law" they feel they need to or the ones they can swing.
Now I believe John was speaking about Yahshua and his teachings and commands and not the 10 Moses got or the many others from the Torah. Yahshua made 50 or more commands on how to live a "Christ-like" life but none of those said to circumcise your sons. New Testament Commandments
and yes, this is just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions...
John, do you think he was speaking about YHWH?
So I agree, I see no contradiction here.
BTW John, One of your fingers is pointed at Voice but youve got 3 pointing right back at ya! "Maybe you have an inflated impression of yourself as a teacher/spiritual sheriff" |
john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 163
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.212.242
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 6:59 pm: |
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Isn't it interesting, Voocitd. You "laugh" at and ignore one who offered a reasonable and legitimate criticism of your position. Exactly what the college kid experienced when he went to Vermont to read the Bible to the community.
Those who would dare question your pronouncements are worthy of nothing more than mockery and silence. Your Tribes upbringing certainly instilled a polarizing us-vs-them worldview in you.
I guess you can take the boy out of the arrogant, unchristlike ego trip, but you can't take the arrogant, unchristlike ego trip out of the boy.
John S. |
john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 164
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.212.242
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 7:17 pm: |
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Truth_seeker wrote:
--- What do you think about circumcision? Are you for it, or against it, or indifferent, and do your reasons have anything to do with your faith? ---
I certainly don't accept "believer's circumcision" the way it is taught and practiced in the Tribes (and by other messianic Christians). The Holy Spirit, via the Jerusalem council, cleared that whole issue up for Gentiles way back in the first century. The fact that people like Elbert Spriggs are still trying to make that dog hunt just shows you something about the power of religious delusion.
As for circumcision from a health or medical perspective... I think it is a choice that needs to be made by parents.
PS - Thanks for addressing me like a human being!
John S. |
nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 92
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 7:32 pm: |
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There you go again John! The pot calling the kettle black! You accuse Voice of being on a "arrogant, unchristlike ego trip" and ignoring your questions while you do the same to me.
Havent I addressed you as a human? |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 90
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 9:52 pm: |
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truth_seeker
New member
Username: truth_seeker
Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 74.140.188.26
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 9:26 am: |
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John,
Personally, I think circumcision is quite extreme, and then again, so is living in the twelve tribes. It leaves me to wonder why God would want his people to be circumcised in the first place B.C.
Was it a sign of faith? Isn't that why it is`done in the twelve tribes today? |
anon_e_mus
Advanced Member
Username: anon_e_mus
Post Number: 761
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 151.204.207.156
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 9:30 am: |
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wow, it's been active here, in the last week! |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 91
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 1:06 pm: |
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Open Letter to John_S
 http://yatttdiscuss.blogspot.com/ |
john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 166
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.209.113
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 3:03 pm: |
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--- Personally, I think circumcision is quite extreme, and then again, so is living in the twelve tribes. It leaves me to wonder why God would want his people to be circumcised in the first place B.C. Was it a sign of faith? Isn't that why it is`done in the twelve tribes today? ---
The confusion can only be put aside if we understand that God made two, separate covenants with mankind.
Each covenant has its own unique set of commandments and its own unique set of blessings. Both covenants will remain active, binding and true to their promises (lest God be made a liar) until the end of the age.
The first covenant is the one God offers through Moses. The second covenant is the one God offers through Christ.
In the first century there was an understandable question that the church had to answer: In order for a Gentile to enter into the covenant with God that comes through Christ, must he either first (or simultaneously) enter into the covenant God established with the Jews through Moses?
The answer was an unequivocal "no". There is nothing written by any apostolic author in the NT that even remotely contradicts that position.
Very simply, there is the Law and the Word. Everything Moses taught is Law. Everything the Son of God taught/teaches is Word. Paul wrote that God's true standard of righteousness was never fully revealed through Moses; God's true standard of righteousness is only fully and finally revealed through Christ.
For example, you don't have to sell your possessions or turn the other cheek when smote to follow Moses. And you don't have to circumcise your sons or abstain from shellfish to follow Jesus.
Understanding these basic principles immediately puts to rest the entire "faith versus works" debate. That debate has laid waste to the true gospel and is a completely man-made concoction, based on completely false premises.
Paul said, "A man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." Paul knew what he meant by this and so did everyone who heard him in the religious climate of that era. Paul meant what I already stated above: One does not have to convert to Judaism in order to be a disciple of Christ. Paul even refers directly to circumcision (a command of the Torah) to buttress and explain his reasoning on the issue.
What Paul did NOT mean (yet what Christianity teaches in point of fact) is that man is justified by faith in Christ apart from obedience to the commands of Christ. Paul and all his hearers recognized fully that the Law of Moses and the Word of Christ contain two, totally separate sets of commandments.
(Imagine Paul writing the Galatians, “I have heard tell you are actually loving your enemies and doing good to those who persecute you. Who has bewitched you, oh foolish Galatians?! How could you have fallen so quickly from the gospel which I delivered to you!”)
Unlike some here I will never refuse to answer a substantive, topical question about my faith and the hope that is in me. Questions help me think, learn, and, hopefully, correct my errors. Thanks again T_S.
John S. |
voocitd
Member
Username: voocitd
Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2008
Posted From: 98.193.216.235
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 3:09 pm: |
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nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 96
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 3:32 pm: |
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Great point made John.
Belief in Christ, the person, does not equal justification. Belief in Christ, the living word, and obedience to that word(to the best of your ability, and God knows your abilitys)equals justification. |
nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 97
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 4:02 pm: |
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Great point made John.
Belief in Christ, the person, does not equal justification. Belief in Christ, the living word,(which is placed in your heart by God) and obedience to that word(to the best of your ability, and God knows your abilitys)equals justification. Hebrews 8
So John, why do you suppose that the TT feels they must fullfil both covenants?
The old covenant was that God would be Abrahams God and promised him children and land if he were to keep Him as his God and obey Him.
The new covenant promised that you would be His possession and forgiveness of your sins.
They believe they must complete what the Twelve Tribes of old failed to accomplish and also what the First Church failed to do also!
Just remember, teachers should no longer needed if we listen and follow our hearts!!
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest." |
john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 167
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.208.243
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 5:06 pm: |
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--- So John, why do you suppose that the TT feels they must fullfil both covenants? ---
I believe the messianic thing came into the movement for two primary reasons. One, to create an even greater sense of disconnect with mainstream Christianity. And two, to establish a clear, definitive culture that would work to pull and hold the members of the group together.
Just a theory.
I think it was the combination of the Judaizing and its progeny, the loopy, end-time doctrine of Tribes, Race and Jubilee, that really "poisoned the well" and sent a righteous beginning off the rails.
John S. |
nabashalam
Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 100
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 6:22 pm: |
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Thanks for the response!
You could be right. My question is do you think this was done intentionally for these purposes? |
john_s
Intermediate Member
Username: john_s
Post Number: 168
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 64.24.208.51
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 11:15 am: |
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--- My question is do you think this was done intentionally for these purposes? ---
No. But I think self-proclaimed prophets "hear" the revelations they want to hear - those that bring added, useful bonuses - whether they realize it at the time or not.
Based on interviews with members who were in the Tribes when the evolution towards the law began to occur, it seems the initial impetus came from Seventh Day Adventism. A Christian sect that Mrs. Spriggs admired. I think it started from SDA influence, but then Elbert was "led" to go further, and become more extreme in the execution.
John S. |
