| Author | Message | ||
     steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
Steve Bellman Pastor NTCC Sioux Falls Sd April 2000 thru Jan 2007. Well, for those of you that have taken the time to read my story, or even more personally have heard it from me in the last conference or seminar in Graham. You know that I have been endevoring to make a clean and smooth transition. Quick re-cap, resigned in Apr 07, was asked to stay on while our (and so many others) issues were addressed. Nothing happened finally asked to be replaced in beginning of Dec. I was asked if I could continue on for a month or more if necessary. I said fine. So here we are, the transition goes smooth, the new pastor comes in graciously and preaches a great message. I even went to church Tue. night to show my support to him. I was asked to pray over the Bible study and so I prayed for the Pastor and the people. We had a time set to "go over the books" for wed. For whatever reasons it was pushed off until thurs. No Problem. Continued.... | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
So thurs comes, and I go to the church with the books. Rev. Olson calls and gives me instructions how to put in my final entries so the new pastor can start fresh. No Problems. On the 7th of Jan (Mon) Rev. olson and I addressed the books and the balances and bills. I let him know the rent for Jan still needed to be paid was short about $30.00 but I would personally deposit that money to cover the rent. Fine, we do that. The rent is paid. So now we go over the books. Everything is addressed carefully except for the Escrow account. (a side note here, I just learned that when a new pastor takes a work, they are not suppose to be told how much is in the escrow, and they start there ledgers at 0!) I am certain the members are not suppose to know how much is in their account either. Mine do and always have. I let them know when we hit 10,000 20,000 25,000 (At twenty five thousand dollars we asked for 2,500 for new piano since the one we have is junk. I was told to pray and take up another offering.) I shared the news of 30,000 and I have let everyone know that I left with 38+ thousand dollars in the escrow. I have always told the church that money was theirs. They have given that money over the last 3 years. So before I get off the phone I asked what about this Escrow account, How do I close out my pastorate on that, how do we carry that balance forward to the new pastor. SOMETHING JUST SEEMED WRONG! To all of you Minsters who have ever moved from one work to another, that have ever built a work and then moved. HOW MANY OF YOU WERE GIVEN MONEY FROM THE WORK YOU WERE IN OR THE WORK YOU WERE GOING TO?! I HAVE SPOKEN TO SEVERAL THAT HAVE SAID ZERO, NONE, NOT A DOLLAR, NOT A WOODEN NICKLE. SO WHY WAS $2,500 WITHDRAWN FROM THIS ACCOUNT? I HAVE CALLED AND AM AWAITING AN ANSWER YOU WILL BE KEPT IN FORMED. | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
Understand, my resaons for resigning had to deal with organizational policies that I do not feel are Biblical, and I do not feel compeled to force my family to live by. UNLESS THIS IS RESOLVED MY ISSUES ARE FAR MORE COMPLEX. I have heard from some of you, and you have expressed a sorrowfulness over my posting my own personal story. I am certain some and maybe even more of you will be upset with me for posting THIS. I want you all to know. All of you out there that read, and do not post and are a part. You will all know what is done and how it is done. For those of you that are angry at me. My question is why are you MAD at me, what did I do that was so sinister? Am I the one that at the very very least is giving an apperacne of evil, and at the worst mishandeling funds? Am I the guilty party here. I personally spent $400.00 and two full days helping move a preacher that could not afford to move, why was he not paid to move? WHAT DID I DO? AT THIS MOMENT I FEEL LIKE I WAS MADE A LIAR OUT OF WHEN I TOLD THOSE PEOPLE THAT MONEY WAS THEIRS. Again how many of you were ever paid to move from the account of the church you were at, or the one you were going to? I REALLY WANT TO KNOW | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
I did not get the information about the $2,500 from the org. Just so you know. I had to find it out for mysef, and I have the proof! Steve Bellman Sioux Falls SD The best part of my week has been the wonderful and exciting service we went to on Wed. Me and my family are all excited about church this Sunday, HOW ABOUT YOU? | ||
| clearwater Junior Member Username: clearwater Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.17.248.210 |
Are you kidding!!!!!!!!!!!! 25 Big Ones in the account and you have to pray about getting a better piano???? A man with no nose could smell a fish!!! | ||
| victorjohanson Junior Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 50 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 216.67.70.119 |
Know how ya feel, Steve. We raised almost 10K for a building fund in Fairbanks; after we left the work closed down. Then Doug Allen reopened a church here, and at one point I asked RWD (in the presence of the board) whether that money would be restored. "When the time was right" was the cryptic reply. That time apparently never arrived; Doug never even heard that the money existed, as far as I know. This whole "escrow" crap is another way to bleed the locals dry. An organization could be a blessing, but in the case of NTCC, it's a major hindrance and burden. We existed to serve the parasitic headquarters, whose lust for more is never satisfied. For all the huge pledges and fellowship offerings taken, where are the corresponding outlays? I've talked to lots of workers, and so far no one has any knowledge of even a fraction of that money reaching the field after being filtered through the grubby hands of these moneychangers. The only tangible expenditures seem to be luxury cars, mansions, motor homes, and more buildings on the Graham campus. If they help the local church, it seems always to be in the form of a loan which must be repaid (see Curt's story for an example). We've all heard the vague statements about what they do with it, but requests for details have always been met with insolence. What kind of attitude is that? Even RW will tell you that when someone acts like they have something to hide, they likely do. Every church I've attended since has been forthcoming and transparent about its financial dealings, and regularly distributes statements to the membership. But it's all a mysterious black hole when it comes to NTCC. So how about it? Anyone here get any help, or was there just the giant sucking sound of wallets being vacuumed into the big void in Graham? | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 144 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.79.15.2 |
Oh, and by the way, if you do get to purchase a church with the hard earned money of the church members, guess who's name it goes in. You guessed it. NTCC. At that point all they have to do is move you and you could be at rock bottom again. BDH | ||
| tracypelfrey Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.1.222 |
I find this whole "WHERE DID ALL THE MONEY GO" situation to be very disturbing. I was speaking with a lady the other day who had been in the Organization for quite some time and she entered the Org before "my time". We were discussing the whole issue of offerings taken up at Fellowship Meetings...and where in the world is that money and what does it go towards? I called my husband and asked him how much of the money taken up during Fellowship Meetings stayed in the in the church where it was held. His answer: NONE! I said: "What?" He said: None of it stayed in the local church. It all got sent to Graham. What's up with that. That's outrageous. As I said before, if someone were to crunch the numbers...and come up with a ball park figure of about how much money is taken up each month...on average, from all of the churches during a month of Fellowship Meetings...and let's do that for an average of 20 years. Given the fact that it is rehearsed in our ears at each and every Fellowship Meeting that the money is being taken up for: 1--Home Missions: CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT A HOME MISSION IS? 2--To support the starting up of new churches... and God in Heaven only knows what else is said to get folks to empty their wallets of their contents... Where is all of that money? Where did it go? Those of us who have gone to take over a church or start a church from scratch...know that no one receives any sort of stipend...or small amount from this FELLOWSHIP FUND...to start a work. When a "start-from-scratch" church begins to prosper financially, as Steve described his situation in the above posts...and they want to make a purchase...why would the Headquarters have anything to say about it at all? They didn't sacrifice to give that money. It belongs to the local congregation. IF they all decided that they needed a piano...then, by golly...they should be the ones to decide they need a piano. If the organization takes up these Fellowship Offerings and it all comes pouring into the Headquarter's coffers...and if the organization doesn't give a stipend to those going out to start up a work...then...maybe...they give some money from that fund to those making a church purchase. Wrong Answer! We know from the testimonies of many preachers from NtCC...that is not the case either. If they get money, they are EXPECTED...to pay back the money to Graham. TO BE CONTINUED... | ||
| tracypelfrey Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.1.222 |
If the church members and the pastor sacrifice to buy a building...then the building belongs in their name...not the main organization...and I mean ultimately. There may be issues where the organization is the one to secure a mortgage...but ultimately, the building should be the possession of those which paid for it. The bottom line is that New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc...is taking in a whole lot of cash each and every month. Where is it all? Is it dumped into the building of the Lecture Hall, and Library and Education Building in Graham...buildings which are not enjoyed by those which paid for them? There are so many Red Flags which have been raised regarding the financial dealings of this group, but we know from those which served as office workers in Graham...that they know how to cover their tracks. I think Steve Bellman's story is an eye-opening one. I can't quite figure out why he is saying that there are those which are mad at him for posting this information, but I'm sure they have their reasons. The money is what keeps this group afloat. The manipulation and the coercion is how they get you to fork over the cash and the loyalty and the servitude to be able to fund their private projects. Again, if Davis and Kekel know how to earn so much cash outside of NTCC, as they claim...then they should hold a conference to teach the multitude poor preachers in their organization as to how they do it. Let them in on it. What is it that is often said about the man who knows the truth and keeps it from you? FOLLOW THE MONEY... | ||
| weezer Junior Member Username: weezer Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 68.26.206.143 |
even while i was attending, the one thing that always seemed strange was why was the money from the local church sent to graham... it makes sense that ALL the money received at a church is used for that church period. | ||
| dtaylor New member Username: dtaylor Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 67.183.51.236 |
Steve, You asked how many received money for moving from church to church. I just wanted to say for the record, yes we received some money from 3 seperate works. But by all rights we should have received money. Much of that money and possessions that we had were ours to begin with. We left that servicemen's home fully stocked with furniture, sheets, towels and so forth. Remember also that it was taught in many conferences that if you used computers, ect, ect. then it becomes the property of the church or should I say org. I could never understand why we had to get permission to spend anything over $50.00. Not like we were going to go blow the money we had worked so hard to save. I don't know how many of you out there were kept on an allowance, but I want to share with you as I have shared with others. Our monthly allowance was $500.00 a month. Now with that said, I have to ask this question. How is a minister that is working his behind off at a work suppose to make it to 2 conferences a year with that kind of money. I always heard it said that a leader should save his money to attend those conferences. I wonder what kind of money the Kekel's get on a monthly basis? I'm sure that will not be made known...and we know that what will be said is that they have other money from property that they own. Hmmm....that brings up an interesting topic now...I thought getting into real estate was taboo, and that would take you away from God. I guess that only applies to certain people...right? Diana | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1034 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.97.87 |
dtaylor, I believe that the problems described up to this point deal primarily with "civilian" churches. The long-standing methods used to regularly move couples between servicemen's churches were totally different and highly systematic. | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
So thurs comes, and I go to the church with the books. Rev. Olson calls and gives me instructions how to put in my final entries so the new pastor can start fresh. No Problems. On the 7th of Jan (Mon) Rev. olson and I addressed the books and the balances and bills. I let him know the rent for Jan still needed to be paid was short about $30.00 but I would personally deposit that money to cover the rent. Fine, we do that. The rent is paid. So now we go over the books. Everything is addressed carefully except for the Escrow account. (a side note here, I just learned that when a new pastor takes a work, they are not suppose to be told how much is in the escrow, and they start there ledgers at 0!) I am certain the members are not suppose to know how much is in their account either. Mine do and always have. I let them know when we hit 10,000 20,000 25,000 (At twenty five thousand dollars we asked for 2,500 for new piano since the one we have is junk. I was told to pray and take up another offering.) I shared the news of 30,000 and I have let everyone know that I left with 38+ thousand dollars in the escrow. I have always told the church that money was theirs. They have given that money over the last 3 years. So before I get off the phone I asked what about this Escrow account, How do I close out my pastorate on that, how do we carry that balance forward to the new pastor. SOMETHING JUST SEEMED WRONG! To all of you Minsters who have ever moved from one work to another, that have ever built a work and then moved. HOW MANY OF YOU WERE GIVEN MONEY FROM THE WORK YOU WERE IN OR THE WORK YOU WERE GOING TO?! I HAVE SPOKEN TO SEVERAL THAT HAVE SAID ZERO, NONE, NOT A DOLLAR, NOT A WOODEN NICKLE. SO WHY WAS $2,500 WITHDRAWN FROM THIS ACCOUNT? I HAVE CALLED AND AM AWAITING AN ANSWER YOU WILL BE KEPT IN FORMED. ----------------------------------- No wonder Davis moves preachers around so much, especially in the more prominent works with larger escrow accounts!!! They get "ZEROED OUT" upon each change of pastorate?!?!?!?!?! ZEROED OUT?!?!?!?! So Davis gets to screw the members of the local church so he and the Kekels can further their estate?!?!?!?! Oh, excuse me, I mean the NTCC estate...RIGHT! Who runs NTCC? Davis and Kekel. Who controls NTCC money? Davis and Kekel. Who can discharge boardmembers with or without cause? Davis and Kekel. So whose organization is it? Davis and Kekel's. Whose money is it? Davis and Kekel's...regardless of their sham "non-profit" status! One of the reasons why I decided that NTCC wasn't the place for me, especially as a minister, was because I knew my efforts would be controlled and scrutinized by the org and the only good I would be doing is for the ORG, not for the people ultimately. Marc A. Perez | ||
| bfamily New member Username: bfamily Post Number: 7 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 68.251.102.157 |
Just trying to learn the process. Do churches get a receipt from the org saying such and such has been deposited in Escrow? | ||
| victorjohanson Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
"Do churches get a receipt from the org saying such and such has been deposited in Escrow?" They have always been leery of giving receipts, whether to an individual or to a church. I know that we had one of these 'escrows' for revivals, and when the evangelist came, the amount that they sent didn't correspond with our own records of what should have been there. Yet we dared not question the "man of God." This "escrow" excuse was also trotted out when I objected to paying on a pledge to Panama after I found out that the work had been closed for some time. I was told that the funds were all being escrowed against the day it reopened. Somehow I have doubts that it was true or that all the money earmarked for certain destinations ever arrived where the donor intended it to go. Their secrecy makes it impossible to prove anything, but appearances aren't encouraging. | ||
| nbrown New member Username: nbrown Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2006 Posted From: 71.39.121.237 |
Wow - I'm imagining every pastor and preacher on the field getting together, confronting davis and kekel in a collective group, and saying "Where is the money!" Then they should hold their own conference titled "Escrow - What it is and what you need to know" Why didn't they teach about escrow accounts in seminary? Hmmmm???? | ||
| odashiman Member Username: odashiman Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.14.94.156 |
" Wow - I'm imagining every pastor and preacher on the field getting together, confronting davis and kekel in a collective group, and saying "Where is the money!" " That wouldn't work--the next conference would be about greed and pride, and about questioning the MOG. If Jesus cast out the moneychangers from the Temple, what would He do with NTCC? Just some thoughts. God bless you all. Dave | ||
| bfamily New member Username: bfamily Post Number: 9 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 68.251.102.157 |
So noone knows if it is actually going into an escrow account. They could be saying that to ease peoples mind then turn around and put it in another account? What if a minister kept all the money local and refused to put it into an escrow to where the local church has no control over it? | ||
| victorjohanson Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 57 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
"What if a minister kept all the money local and refused to put it into an escrow to where the local church has no control over it?" He would be an ex-minister in short order. There is a zero-tolerance policy towards any independent action on the part of the servant class. | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
"Do churches get a receipt from the org saying such and such has been deposited in Escrow?" ------------------------------------- ESCROW?!?!?! Escrow? HA! I'll tell you what escrow is: Davis's pocket! The money is all "his" since he is the grand poobah cult leader pastor...so all of the money is biblically his, right?!?! The money gets deposited into an NTCC account, then it gets transferred around and eventually most or all of it falls into the hands of "the family." Whenever there is a matter of desperation and need, THEN the pastor of that church who has this bogus escrow account has to beg, plead, and pray to Davis for a few nickels of it. Davis gets to be looked at as "gracious" and "generous" because he "helped out" in a time of need. All the while, he's just taking a bit of the money that got transferred from this imaginary escrow account and sending it to that preacher...strings attached...better be even more loyal since I HELPED YOU!!! Sick. Marc Perez | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
"NTCC IS Pastor Davis." - Joe Olson So is it any surprise that any of these imaginary escrow accounts ARE Pastor Davis? Marc Perez | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1039 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.112.130 |
Marc, Is that speculation, or do you speak from certainty when you say "imaginary"? | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.36 |
There is something that I don't understand. Some here are indicating that civilian Pastors are placed on a budget? I’m I understanding this right? I was told specifically by a Pastor of a civilian church that the tithes belonged to him and my recollection is quite vivid. If that would have been the case, this particular Pastor should have been quite well taken care of by virtue the numbers of faithful tithe payers in his church during that time. I have reasons for believing that would have been the case. Of course he would have paid tithes on those tithes received. Is it possible that some church funds are handled differently depending on the church? I have been in servicemen’s works as well as civilian, and quite a few for that matter over the last 22+ years. I am giving information concerning my tenure obviously to establish credibility. On different occasions I was trusted with otherwise confidential information because I was considered faithful which I was. On one occasion I was also told information by a visiting overseer that I was somewhat surprised to have been made aware of. | ||
| victorjohanson Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
"I was told specifically by a Pastor of a civilian church that the tithes belonged to him and my recollection is quite vivid." This WAS the teaching, back in the day, but I suspect that the prospect of plundering such a pot of gold became irresistable, so maybe it's been changed. We were only required to "escrow" building and evangelist funds. | ||
| dtaylor New member Username: dtaylor Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.197.255.52 |
Pelfdaddy, You said: I believe that the problems described up to this point deal primarily with "civilian" churches. The long-standing methods used to regularly move couples between servicemen's churches were totally different and highly systematic. You forget we also labored at 2 civilian churches as well. We had a church account and our personal account. When we left the work in Puyallup, we did not get anything from that account for our move. We sold everything we had with the exception of a few things. And our trip was paid for by none other than ourselves. We did not receive a draw from the church account for our move. Neither did we receive one from Portland when we moved to Washington. Diana | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
Let me explain the Escrow account and the Weekly tithe report for you all. (They can call me a devil for doing this, but hey I have already been accused of stealing our guitar, and my wifes song books. I found that out from a now former member. This happened the day after I left. Then yesterday at the fellowship meeting I guess It was put out there in a round about way that I and my family are no longer saved. This was done via the pulpit and at the resturant by all three preachers. Again I was not there, but now former members called me and told me.) So here we go, and there has been a change since I started the escrow, but I know how that works also. WAIT: I have also found out concerning the escrow in Sioux Falls which I started on behalf of the church 3 years ago that another $2,000 was taken out the day after the $2,500 was approved for Rev. P. Jordan, the new pastor. The $2,000 was approved to be put in the general fund. The $2,500 was given to Rev. T.P. Jordan to move. I was given this information from Rev. Olson. What about the worker that was here for 8 years and moved back to Graham, was he given any money. He was under a lot of pressure from the org. to move to Graham. Where is his $2,500.00. 8 years / $2500.00 would be 312.50 for every year of service here. Were my workers thieves because they left with their guitars. OK the Escrow information will follow Continued | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
Again for the record, we left $38,471.10 in the Sioux Falls Escrow account, and the money was all there in that account. These accounts are in my experience so far real. The money really is there. The only authorized signers on the accounts are in Graham. The pastor has no control over the account. The bank statements go to graham and all receipts are to be mailed to graham. When a new pastor comes to a work they start new ledgers with no balance carried over. Have two or three transitions, and no one will know how much is really in the account unless the preachers all get together and compare notes. Again at $25,000+ we requested $2,500 to purchase a piano. I was told that the escrow account (This is not exactly word for word, but close)"Really the escrow account is not for such purposes. It is really primarily for buying building or land, you can understand brother. That is not to say it could not ever be used for such things, but why don't you pray and take up an offering, and we will pray ok brother." Now 4 days after the transition $2,500.00 is taken out for Rev. T.P. Jordans moving expenses, and then the next day $2,000.00 is taken from the escrow to put into the General fund. When I moved to Sioux Falls the church was in debt $480.00+ in conference rooms. I paid that personally. When we moved to Sioux Falls a leased had already been signed on a building, pictures had been sent to the org. approval was given the lease was signed.) This building had no running water, no lighting, no windows that opened, no A/C, no working bathroom. It smelled of urine from people peeing on the floor, and was literally strewn with all kinds of trash. There was pornographic paintings on the walls of what was to be the sanctuary. I did not get a job for 3 months and spent over $5,000.00 of my money to make the place work. For all of you who are upset at what I am posting here, can you see my frustration? (Well you should not post here and air out this dirty laundry.) You maybe right, and I will probably quite very soon and do as one man of God said, "Turn the page." (Thank you sir, I hope you do not reject me for what I am now writting.) OK Details of Escrow follow for real this time! | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
OK. You take your Sunday morning offering and all Tithes received. (This in years past went into the Tithe fund which was the local pastors in the civilian works. Most of the time the bulk if not all of this money would end up getting transfered into the General fund to pay bills.) Escrow System. Take the tithe and sunday morning offering. Lets say it comes to $1,000.00 for the week. First. Pay your pastors tithe rounded to the nearest dollar. In our example that would be $100.00 You now have $900.00 left. you than split that $900.00 60/40 into the escrow and 60% tithe fund. In our example that would be $360.00 escrowed $540.00 60% tithe fund. The change for the GOOD that has just been made is that if your church has a weekly opperating budget of say $300.00 the way it would work now is. $1,000.00 Tithe and Offering $100.00 Pastor Tithe (Weekly offerings after church tithe were $150.00 leaving you short $150.00 for the weeks operating expenses. So after pastor tithe you have $900.00 Deduct from that what you are short for the week. $900.00 $150.00 Transfered to General fund $750.00 Split 60/40 $300.00 Escrowed $450.00 transfered to 60% tithe fund. Does everyone follow? Any questions? Steve kdinc@live.com | ||
| tracypelfrey Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 87 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.17.110 |
Steve, not that you need my commendation...but I commend you for what you are posting here. This is the nuts and the bolts and the nitty gritty and when folks tell us that we are cry babies because we question the way the money is handled in this organization...well, all I can say is that if this stuff is O.K. with the IRS then more is wrong with the SYSTEM than I ever imagined. You have no need to apologize Steve by making such disclaimers as this: "I did not get a job for 3 months and spent over $5,000.00 of my money to make the place work. For all of you who are upset at what I am posting here, can you see my frustration?" WE WENT THROUGH $15,000 of our own money in Newport News alone (in just six months)...because the man who was pastoring there lied like a rug about being full time. He and his wife lived high on the hog and liked to dress and behave as the Davis' do and they did nothing for the church they were renting or for that matter...the folks in the church...who kept them adorned in finery for 14 plus years..and yet lived like paupers. We were left with a very heavy burden...and when my husband finally realized that there was no way on God's green earth that Dorsie was ever really full time...(based on what was coming into the church...and the fact that he had about the same 8 people for 14 years)...then my husband couldn't have these people burdened with this responsibility any longer and he searched for a job in November of 2005...it was the holidays and so...he was not able to start his job until January 4, 2006. ...it didn't matter anymore though...because the day after Christmas...God gave us HIS TRUE WORD...which was to scram from that Cult. I hope others post information about what went on financially in their churches. Are any of these tactics legal with the IRS? Or are they just so good at cover up? We all know that there are things which the pastors are asked to do by Olson...that seem kind of fishy...but when you've been conditioned through the years to think well of the MAN OF GOD...then you repress those questionings and put them down...as from the devil. The questions, my friends are not from the devil. I would honestly like to know what some of the apologists for NTCC think of what Steve has posted...and most especially...those who are currently or who have previously served as pastors in NTCC. This stuff is mind boggling. And, it still begs the question to be answered about where all the money is which has been taken up over the years in Fellowship Offerings. If Jordan was paid moving expenses from the escrow account of the church he was coming to take over ...and yet...others aren't afforded the same luxury...what is the criteria for receiving this money...and WHERE IS ALL THE CASH FROM THE FELLOWSHIP OFFERINGS? What is that used for? And seriously folks...is this stuff legal? | ||
| weezer Junior Member Username: weezer Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.0.148.48 |
bullets: 1. it doesn't matter what you post and who it bothers as long as it is the truth. 2. quote: "that money is for buildings and land". (real estate business fronted as a church). reminds me of ray kroc (a mcdonalds founder or something like that.) asked college kids "what business am I in ?" they all laughed and said we all know you're in the hamburger business! He said "no. my business is real estate" if someone ever investigated the financials of the borg, i'm sure it would be front page news | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.39 |
Steve, what was the 60% tithe fund used for? Was it for the pastor's own personal expenses? | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.38 |
Pastors from three churches that I have been with regularly have stated that there was a need or they were coming up short. It would appear that there would not have been a shortage if extra money was not placed in escrow or funneled somehow up to Washington. If all of these ministers would not have been part of an organization, their 10% could have gone directly back into the expenses / temple figuratively. Now I see why so many church leaders want to act independently in various Christian churches. I see no evidence in the New Testament indicating that Paul had all the money funneled into a big church building in Corinth for example. In the NTCC, the rich get richer and the poor seem to get their very last dime sucked out of them and they struggle perpetually. This is such a shame. If you remain loyal it is set up that way barring the select group of yes men that get financially stable off of all the strugglers. Where is Robin Hood when you need him? It is like a cast system. This is absolutely unbelievable. And do you know what is even more unbelievable? If every last soul said forget this place and left the NTCC other than the Nobles, the remaining hierarchy would be so thoroughly wealthy; their families would be taken care of for the next millennium. This is truly saddening that so many ministers and church members with a heart after God were and are essentially forced to struggle severely when it was and is not even remotely necessary. I am truly amazed. | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.38 |
The higher ups can not possibly believe that God himself has blessed them financially for being faithful tithe payers and simply obedient while the vast majority of the rest of the faithful tithe payers in the NTCC become more broke due to their disobedience. | ||
| rls Member Username: rls Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 65.28.108.137 |
They will reap for what they are sowing in due time. Although, I think if particulars could be found out through investigation by several Federal and State agencies to make them accountable to the people underneath, it could be a good thing. | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
Marc, Is that speculation, or do you speak from certainty when you say "imaginary"? ------------------------------------------------- In the literal sense, it's speculation. However the testimonies of Dr. Vic, Scott Rickards, and others have proven that they are, in the practical sense, imaginary. As we all know, Davis has taught that all of the tithe and offering is his anyway by biblical right. However, he overextends that right by making these little NTCC field churches send their tithe, building funds, and other funds to Graham instead of keeping them in the local church where they biblically belong in the first place. As many have said here, these "escrow" balances are zero when a replacement pastor comes in to an existing work. Davis/Kekel uses those monies as they see fit for their own use in Graham, perhaps for buying and building more residential properties, lecture hall, and God only knows what else. So in the rare case when there is a need at the local church for a one-time, very conditional dose of financial assistance, Davis will give some of that "escrow" money to them and make them feel like he's doing them a favor and that they owe him much fervent loyalty and honor. How twisted is that? It can only be that way because NTCC is the Davis/Kekel family business...simple as that! All of the rest of you are just mere pieces of property/assets for the furtherance of Davis/Kekel's family estate. Marc Perez | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
Thanks, Steve, for your enlightening testimonies. I had just finished reading them after I made my previous post. My perception was mostly right in that these funds are held in "escrow" but Davis IS the escrow and he uses this "escrow" system in order to control these churches under him and to have some use for the money that is rightfully theirs for his own agendas - be it personal or for the Graham Headquarters...one or the other or both. Jordan gets done right by being given some of that escrow money to get there and to pick things up where you left off. Yet you, along with so many others who have taken over works that had "escrow" money, got nothing. Where is the money? Can you spell "G-R-A-H-A-M?" Who controls the money in GRAHAM? D-A-V-I-S and K-E-K-E-L. The latter of the two is in that postion because of Davis's daughter, Tanya. Marc Perez | ||
| just2bhappy New member Username: just2bhappy Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.121.192.69 |
Something seems amiss to me here...setting the Escrow saga aside....Steve, there was a $480 deficit on the conference room??? Did you happen to ask the previous pastor (my husband) as to why these had not been paid? Because that does not seem right. It has been almost eight years ago, but I can not believe that was how it was left. I seem to remember us having to pay that weekly, but my memory fails me.... Ok, the truth be told, I was a rebel from the start. I know women were NOT to have anything to do with the church books. Curry made that very clear to Tony day one! However, having a background in accounting, Tony often relied upon me to assist him with the books. Not because he had to, but because we were/are a team often do many things together. He trusted me and it was a relief to him as he was pastoring, working, etc. Anyway, back on point. I want it to be clear to all who read that Steve had to pay an unpaid bill, we would not have allowed that to happen knowingly. However it came to be that Steve was required to pay it I do not know/can not remember details. So let me say this here and now, Steve and Jessica, please forgive us for putting you in that position. Renee' | ||
| clearwater Member Username: clearwater Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.17.248.210 |
OK, here is some "raw meat" for the ravished: That escrow is there for the protection of the congregation. Now, there you have it. Feast a while on that!!! | ||
| weezer Junior Member Username: weezer Post Number: 44 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 68.26.132.242 |
if that were true, that would still mean a churches offering money is used only for that church | ||
| tracypelfrey Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 92 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.5.163 |
OK, here is some "raw meat" for the ravished: That escrow is there for the protection of the congregation. Now, there you have it. Feast a while on that!!!" ARE YOU SAYING THAT TO PAY A MAN'S MOVING EXPENSES FROM THE ESCROW ACCOUNT...that is for the protection of the congregation? ARE YOU SAYING THAT WHEN THE CONGREGATION WANTS A NEW PIANO...AND THE MONEY IS AVAILABLE IN THE ESCROW ACCOUNT...that is for the protection of the congregation? ARE YOU SAYING THAT WHEN THE RENT NEEDS TO BE PAID ON A BUILDING...AND THE MONEY IS AVAILABLE IN THE ESCROW ACCOUNT AND THE PASTOR IS NOT ALLOWED TO PAY THE RENT FROM THAT...that is for the protection of the congregation? ARE YOU SAYING THAT WHEN PASTORS "change hands" AND THE ESCROW ACCOUNT IS KEPT SECRET FROM THE PASTOR COMING IN...AND MOST IMPORTANTLY...FROM THE CONGREGATION...WHO GAVE THE MONEY IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!...that is for the protection of the congregation? I have to hope, "clearwater"...that your post above is a sarcastic one against the congregation and I am responding to it that way...you know...playing along with you. Tracy | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1047 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.217.138.140 |
That is actually true. NTCC cannot trust its pastors, so they do everything they do with this in mind. They do in fact protect the congregation from what they perceive to be the worst thing possible--that the local pastor might leave NTCC. In reality, what they say is for the protection of the congregation is designed to make certain that the congregation does not leave when the pastor leaves. If they DO leave, they take nothing with them. They do not wish to lose what they believe is theirs. It does not matter that the congregation is paying for the property that they eventually purchase; they are welcome to buy it in the name of the organization and FOR the organization. It is not right, and it is deceitful. But it is almost certainly legal and defensible. | ||
| makingitknown New member Username: makingitknown Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 67.159.49.250 |
Any Pastor who is reading this You see what is going on. If you care about the local church you are at quit sending money to escrow! Keep it in your local church. As told by Steve if you would ever leave the work (and you know you will someday its NTCC way) that local church will lose it. That local church has worked hard for that money to support THAT LOCAL CHURCH. Don't let this happen to them! | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
Couple of things: Chief, the 60% tithe fund is essentially the pastors. Most of the time the majority of that money needs to be transfered into the general fund to pay the bills. Again there is a new system, but under the system that I worked for 3 years, you gave 10% of all tithes and offering to the org. Then you put 40% of all remaining tithe and sun A.M. offering in the escrow. (Sunday morning offering is always the biggest. Your general fund was where your funds from Sunday night and thurs. went. That was the money that was for paying all the bills. Then the 60% was for the pastor. Again the bulk of that money, sometimes all of it and then some of mine own went into the general fund to pay the bills. Now to my good friends Renee and Tony. First I was and am not trying to make you guys look bad. You guys got a raw deal in Sioux Falls, and not just from NTCC, but also from the Church of God prophecy. You guys accomplished a lot in one year, then you were torpedoed. Moving to Fl. was not a cheap deal. How people can move like that while still making the conf. is mind boggeling. Anyway, the bills for the conf. rooms came in about a month later. (They tore that building down too.) Anyway I was not upset with you guys at all, and the only reason I brought it up was to show how things work in a lot of places. You guys remember that building on Main ave. It was a complete dump. Trash all over, no A/C no lights to speak of. Continued..... | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
The Org. was sent pictures of that building prior to the lease being approved. I never saw the pictures. I was told it was not the Taj Ma hall. There is no way that anyone saw those pictures and could not have determined it was going to take money to make it work. So we used our money. That is the way it goes, You know the deal, Leadership, making it happen, if it going to be it is up to me, etc. etc. etc. SO seven years later and moving the church twice on our watch we have a nicer building and $38,471.10 in an escrow account that is for the local church. When the workers move, they get nothing. The workers in Sioux Falls also put in a lot of their own finances, they bought the pews, and a lot of other stuff. Then when we ask to be replaced, Rev. T.P. Jordan is given $2,500.00 of the local churches money. Now when I left there was like $4.00 and some change in the general fund, nothing in the tithe fund, but the rent was paid. The gas and electric bills came in during our transition, water too. They are not yet due, but Rev. T.P. Jordan was then given $2,000.00 from the escrow to put in the general fund. WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT? | ||
| steve_bellman New member Username: steve_bellman Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
Last thing. When I talked to Rev. Olson I confronted him about the escrows. I understand that they are there to "Protect the Local congregation." I can understand this, some preacher gets crossed up, wipes out the accounts and disappears. HERE IS MY ARGUMENT! Where is the local churches protection from the Org. If the local pastor was one of say three required signer on the account, that would give the local church protection by way of there pastor who is the head of that local church. Lets just say that that was a long and fruitless conversation. The org could keep the statements, they could hold onto the checkbook. Everything could be just the way it is now with the exception that the pastor is required to sign any check. Get oked for a new piano, the org. writes the check, the two signers in graham sign, send the check to the pastor, he signs, done. Now of course the org could still run off with the money by signing check and cashing them without the pastors signature, but that would be a criminal act that could be prosocuted. As it is now they could close every escrow, take every last dollar, and there would be nothing that could be done. YOU CAN TAKE THAT CHANCE IF YOU WANT, NOT ME. LAST: This congregation hasa been completely destroyed. There is no one left. They have all contacted me, they even had a meeting, called me and asked me to start a church. They want to write a letter asking the org. for there money. I know that will not happen. We have already started attending another church, and some of the members have come also. I have let them all know that they can go anywhere they want, including NTCC. My only concern now is for their souls. No an Org. just their souls, that is the way it should be. These people are saved, and I am confident that they will continue to serve the Lord. | ||
| bfamily New member Username: bfamily Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 68.251.102.157 |
Maybe you should get some info from a lawyer there may be laws in place that will protect those members expecially if there is money that has not been spent yet. | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 209.12.5.26 |
Steve, thank you for the answer. Your statements continue to be an incredible eye opener. I feel bad for the members of the church that you Pastored. Of course you would have had no way to prevent such an occurrence concerning the handling of money. I don’t suspect that you are, but just don’t blame yourself. The NTCC is all messed up and I have been associated with the NTCC since 1985. My Pastor will learn very shortly that my family and I will no longer be attending church with the NTCC. I don’t feel bad for myself because whatever I have done in the NTCC has been done as unto the Lord. Any money that I gave was as unto the Lord. Thank God that I never left the Military to attend Bible College and believe me I came close. Just maybe the Good Lord was looking out for me, but to suggest that, would be to suggest that he didn’t look out for many others; so who knows. I feel so bad for so many that followed this organization for so long as well as the ones still in it. They have no idea how business is truly conducted. Thank God for the law of sowing an reaping. What I am not sad about is that I also believe that the Pastors in the NTCC have lead many to Christ. And please, no one congratulate me for our pending departure. I receive no joy from all of these revelations. I witnessed severe problems existing over the years in the NTCC but all of this information is finally the straw that has broken the camels back. | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1050 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.2.28 |
Chief, I would not presume to give you commands, but think about this... If you tell your current pastor EVERYTHING, he will probably attempt to explain, spin, and re-interpret the things you are telling him. However, within his own mind, he will agree with you. This will help to embolden him not only to change things but to see more of the abuse he has chosen to ignore. Do what you like, but it would be nice to see every pastor confronted with the disgust harbored by his members for his organization. It would be a very good thing if that would happen as often as possible. | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1051 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.2.28 |
Homeless guy (seated on ground with paper cup before him, in which are seventeen dollars in change): "Excuse me sir. Would you mind helpin' me out a little?" RW Davis (reaches down to cup, picks it up, pours change into his hand, places in trousers pocket): "Sure, I'll help you. I'll hold on to this for you." | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 209.12.5.26 |
Big Pelf, thanks for the advise. I've have considered your suggestion. In fact I have considered just about every possible decent option imaginable. I have learned over the years that most of these Pastors are so full of pride that they don't seem to hear a word that anyone has to say to them other then Davis, Olsen or one of the overseers. Because they believe that God put them there, they feel intellectually and spiritually superior to all others and as a result are generally not interested in advise or suggestions from anyone. Many of them are absolutely sorry leaders at best. What is really sad is that many of them lack basic leadership experience and if it is taught at seminary it is not learned. My experience has been that many NTCC Pastors develop a leadership style as authoritarian dictators. Privates in the military often have great suggestions and a good leader will at the least, briefly consider all suggestions. I have been over nearly 500 soldiers at one time and I couldn’t tell you the number of times that one of them had a better idea than the one that I had. As a result, and I am not saying this as a boast, I was successful. I didn’t use up my people. I took care of them and they took care of me and the end result was success and good moral in the process. The leaders in the NTCC use their Pastors and helpers and when they feel that they no longer have need of them they tell them where the exit sign is located and I am sick of it. The same goes with the church members. One three different occasions and by three different Pastors, I have heard statements such as I quote, “I was here when you got here and I will be here when you leave and if you don’t like it here there is the door”. We didn’t want to leave, we wanted the problem fixed. No one to include the overseers seemed to listen because believe me, complaints were made that were legitimate. If you have the love of Christ and you really believe that you have the answer for man kind you would never make that offer. It shows a total lack of concern and an offer like that certainly shouldn’t made to an entire congregation. I can’t even imagine getting up in front of an entire company of Soldiers and making such an offer. My soldiers made me and people in the NTCC have made the leadership, overseers on up to the top with no exception. Without a congregation you have no fruit. Jesus said to Peter, “Take care of my sheep”. I can imagine Peter saying to Jesus, “Yes Lord, but if they don’t like it with me, there is the door”. Pelf, I don’t think the Pastor will hear I single solitary word that I have to say so I think that it is best to let the head honchos wonder why I left after being with the church for so long. I had made suggestions to three Pastors that a change needed to be made concerning the fellowship meetings and low and behold ,about 5 or 6 years later, the HQ decided to make the very change that I had been suggesting for years. Thanks for the response Pelf and I mean that. Chief. (Message edited by chief on January 14, 2008) | ||
| rickards_scott New member Username: rickards_scott Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 69.6.160.98 |
In reference to the Escrow Accounts... I've shared a "glimpse" of my experiences with Escrows...how I received help but it wasn't until I was almost homeless, etc. Steve's (by the way we are close friends) story rings so true in my ears. It stirs my spirit of some other details: It reminds me of a couple other things. I remember on one occasion that I needed assistance from the Escrow for rent (i thru out my back & lost my job) & I was told, after receiving it from the Escrow Acct, that it isn't the orgs place to pay my rent. Amen to that! It isn't the orgs place to pay my rent, that's what is so crazy about it...I didn't think the Escrow was the orgs money! I thought it was for the local church & for the pastors when they are in need (which is about all the time)! They gave me the money (i didn't have to pay it back), but it came with much questioning of my leadership & administrative skills. Forget the fact that I moved so many times in the ministry & that I take care of my wife & two kids (those are small details!) There is also a pastor currently in the Org, who has been "loyal" for a long time...many years. He asked for some finances from the Escrow for a conference trip & was told NO! Now listen. He has 10's of thousands in the account, he has been loyal for many years, & he was told "no, get the money from the people!" Just bleed the sheep baby! How many people do ya'll know who can take 3 stink'n vacations (conferences) a year & simultaneously save 10% toward your future, put your kids in private school, keep your wife off the job, give sacrifically to your church, give abundantly to the org, eat correctly, drive a decent vehicle, own your own home...on & on! What they expect of their preachers is mind-boggling! I say again, can someone say Implosion! | ||
| leftin1991 Intermediate Member Username: leftin1991 Post Number: 479 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.24.207.240 |
I remember when the Samintos were leaving Ft. Hood/Killeen, TX and had been sent to Germany, way back in 1984. He came to another brother and me and asked (begged) us for $100 apiece, which we both quite willingly gave. It was more or less a guilt trip, that he and his family had sacrificed so much and that we who had been there for a year or so should feel some kind of obligation to finance the trip to their next "duty station," as assigned by Davis & Co., Inc. I know that I had already sent more than that amount to HQ through 10% of my 'tithes and offerings.' So looks like they robbed us twice, once through extortion and the other by coercion. (Message edited by leftin1991 on January 14, 2008) | ||
| clearwater Member Username: clearwater Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.17.248.210 |
Tracy, of course I was being sarcastic. Must I have a "LOL" disclaimer after every post. (smile) Pelfdaddy, I agree with post #1047, most of which I think is spot on. However, I would take issue with your basic premise. The point of having a stop-gap measure of sorts so that if the pastor leaves members don't leave. If they do they take nothing with them. I seriously doubt there are congregants who feel a real hesitancy to leave because they have to much in the way of cash invested in the church. Well, I would move on but there is just too much money in that escrow for my family and I to jet. The org has got my by the ......organ. Steve, that is really a practical solution you have. The pastor being a signature required. Scott, talk about "humor in tragedy". Yea, the whole thing is kinda wild. I think it was the conference "yoke" that caused me to raise an eyebrow. I began to ask, who are these really for anyway? Sure, I got a blessing "sometimes", but I also got a blessing reading and studying on my couch. |
