| Author | Message | ||
     truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
I'm just wondering how much time married couples are able to spend together in the twelve tribes. Lets_be_real, I'm especially interested in hearing your perspective on this, would you say the lifestyle is strenuous on a marriage? | ||
| divineintervention New member Username: divineintervention Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.192.17.123 |
I'm certain that it is strenuous. I've met at least 5 men who were sent away on "missions" to prove themselves worthy of the community, and all of their wives were pregnant at the time they were being kept away. And in most cases the couples were newlyweds and it was their first child. That's no way to start a family or a marriage let alone promote family unity. A husband in fear of losing his wife and newborn child, a wife alone and pregnant in fear of her husband not being allowed to return. I guess that would be their "Incentive" program(lol), you know raising the stakes for the men to make sure they remain obedient enough to win the prize in the end?! divine-interuption | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
I beg to differ. I know for a fact that they try their best to give newlyweds at least a year without separation. Deuteronomy 24:5 If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married. But I would like to hear from LBR and "intransition" about truthseekers question... | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
What are missions? How long do they typically last? | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
Also, if pilgrum is still reading, I am certainly interested in his experience too. | ||
| divineintervention New member Username: divineintervention Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.192.17.123 |
TS I was using "mission" metaphorically, to be more specific in one case the husband was told that in order "to prove that his heart was pure and that he could show conviction he was to be sent out into the nations until the elders felt that he was humbled enough to receive them". The impression that I got was that they wanted to see him broken in spirit, could he resist any and all temptations that might surround him, spread the word and praises of the community, maybe even recruit a few, etc... They say jump and he said how high kind of a thing. It was very humbling for me to see him that way to know how very fragile we all are. | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
Just happened to pop in and this caught my eye... "I've met at least 5 men who were sent away on "missions" to prove themselves worthy of the community, and all of their wives were pregnant at the time they were being kept away." This statement from divineintervention is very odd to me. "Missions" to prove themselves worthy of the community... they were being kept away." Come one now... what in the world are you talking about? In the twelve years I've been in the TT, the past 10 of which I have been one "responsible" for the care of the lives of others I have never been a part of sending brothers out on "missions" apart from their newlywed pregnant wives making sure they were separated long enough to "prove" their worthiness... this is the kind of stuff that sells demoralizing novels... I have been happily married for about 10 years now and I was never sent on such a "mission" nor have I sent anyone on such a "mission" nor have I known anyone else that was sent on such a "mission". By the way... NABA is correct in saying that we do our best to keep a married couple close together as much as possible especially for the first year of their marriage. The success & well-being of a marriage is very much dependent on the foundation that is laid especially in the first year... It is important that they spend time together, establish trust, learn how to communicate in a greater way... sure there are needs that take people away to other places from time to time but we regard very highly the relationship between man & wife. | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
divineintervention??? are you sure you have the right cult?  | ||
| divineintervention New member Username: divineintervention Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.192.17.123 |
very sure. And thank you for calling it what it is. (Message edited by divineintervention on January 09, 2008) | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 53 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
OK Pilgrum, when I read DIs post I wanted to bring out the facts about the first year of marriage in the TT. I also can tell when Im reading a reputable report and when Im reading a tabloid within the first paragraph. Now you must admit that the life of the TT is very hard on a marriage. The long hours and responsibilities of both the husband and the wife, the lack of quality time with each other and without the children or away from the hustle and bustle of the "hive" and not to mention the lack of time with your children alone. Do you actually think the family nights that you do get are enough? And I know you usually end up getting about one out of the four you are scheduled to get! Unless of course you are one of the fortunate ones not involved in a "push" of one sort or another and that you have a vehicle at your disposal and some pocket money to boot. Please be completely honest with your responses. Thats all we are asking for... | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
ok divine... well I guess there's no convincing you... even naba knows that what you are saying is not true. but I am not here to try and convince anyone... I just threw in my own experience of 12 years in the TT b/c someone asked & it is nothing at all in the least bit what you describe. but perhaps my years in the TT means nothing to someone that is fully persuaded that we are a bunch of nit-wits led by a diabolical power hungry tyrannical lunatic... (I'm not saying you think or feel this way.. I never actually read that from you... though that is the sense you get from some around here) did you ever live in the TT? you don't have to answer this... it is just quite odd that after living and breathing the TT for the past 12 years I have never heard of such a thing... details, details, now I really need to go to bed | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
hey now you beat me to it naba... but I can't answer you right now cause it's past my bedtime nighty-nite (Message edited by pilgrum on January 09, 2008) | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
I think DI clarified him/herself and the fact that he/she used the wrong word, "missions". What he/she is describing sounds more to me like being "cut-off" or a situation where a wife is a newly baptized member and the husband has not fully accepted the "truth" and therefore is not allowed to move in with her. I personally know of many examples of when husbands have been "cut-off" and sent out of community for a time. Most are welcomed back if they can humble themselves and learn their lesson. This is very hard on a marriage and a family. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
I too have seen something like this. I saw it happen with a common law marriage couple who came in and they both got baptised then the Elders wanted to see if the marriage was actually from God. So they separated the couple for a year, sent to different clans and were ordered to remain incommunicado for that year. It ended up were the woman left just before the year was over and the guy married another woman in the tribes very soon after that. I do believe they meddle and control who marries who way too much. Even though they want everyone, within reason, to be married. Some may say this is for propagation purposes only. That may be a small factor but truly they believe a man should not be alone and most are incomplete without a woman. But some have the strength of Paul and can focus on Messiah and the Body instead of his wife. Women are not to be widows before the age of 60! They want them married also. They actually tried to do what they could to get me married. There were just not that many my age, in their 40s. I met a few but nothing I wanted to hitch up with. I was on a waiting period from hell and had it stopped 3 times! They would talk me back into trying again... each time I screamed louder to STOP IT!!!  Most women that age are set in their ways and are happy to stay single and not have to answer or submit to a husband!  Sorry, I got off track there for a moment... They will do the year separation with every couple that comes in that arent married. So if your gonna join with your girl friend, you better legally tie the knot before you go in!!! | ||
| fatherofaking New member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
i have seen children sent away, i have seen wives sent away and i have seen husbands sent away. all in the name of discipline. it is never easy on a family. it either broke up families for good or the entire family ended up leaving. i will never deny the sincerity of many that i met in the TT. even those who were in charge of particular communities were simply doing what they were taught to do. no one had a mind of their own. what i saw was sincerity that lead to blind obedience. what the TT says goes or you are sent off for good. everyone knows that. you must play by the rules. some get pushed away in my opinion. work always came before family. if you were fortunate enough to work on the property you got to spend more time with your family. that was not my experience or the experience of many others that i worked with. there was a lot of talk about having cottage industries so that people would not have to work outside in the world, i never saw it come to fruition in the time that i was there. it was just not possible to support everyone with the little money that was made in these industries. i was a single brother with an 8yr old boy. his mother died shortly after i joined. she was not a member. i was out of town a lot. i rarely saw my son. he was being raised by whoever had the time to spend with him. i missed him terribly when i was there. i am thankful that we left after only two years. i am sure we would not be as close to one another as we are now if we had stayed. although it has been difficult at times since i have been "in the world" and there have been times when i wish i had more time with him, i would not trade the time i have had with my son for the life of the TT. my opinion is that the ways of the TT are very hard on families. they hold them in high regard in word but not in deed. although there are some that would say that i am just a disgruntled ex-member who has a skewed view of the way things were, that is my experience. while i appreciate that the TT helped me in ways that i may not have been able to help myself at the time, i do not think it is an ideal place to try and raise a family. | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 49 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
1 Timothy 4:1-4 - "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received in thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." Thanks for sharing your experience. In this space, it is heard and received. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 59 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Truth_seeker, I hope you are hearing our hearts... Your turn Pilgrum... You too lets_be-real and intransition! | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 50 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Pilgrum - You stated you are "one "responsible" for the care of the lives of others". In 1 Timothy it states: "Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. .... He must also have a good reputation with outsiders (that's us ), so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap." From your words on this site and from what you say about your relationship with your family (I have no reason to believe it is not true) I see this in you. Not that you need my praise, but I just wanted you to know how at least one person on this site perceives you. You have my vote to replace DD as the internet Apologist for the TT. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 61 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"one person on this site perceives you" and this one "receives" you!(so far ) Wait a minute! Can a member be an "apologist"? I suppose they can but apologist means to defend and Pilgrum aint defensive...yet as long as we dont get offensive! And actually the "truth" needs no defense. | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 9 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
No little Debbies for Naba. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 63 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Ah gee! What did I do? I prefer molasses cake anyway! Hey! Now that your hwere...would you grace us with your thoughts on the subject? Please??? | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
In my own experience I was blessed my wife and I worked together. We didn't have any children and so we could be focused on what we needed to accomplish. For sure it could be hard for some of the families who had alot on there plate and also many children. The community is all about the family but it could be hard at times with all the needs. That's why it's so important that everyone would give all they had to meet those pressing needs. Usually large families would have a single sister who would be part of a family and support where needed and in return receive what they needed to someday be married and raise there own | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 66 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Well your no help! No kids? aaank! That dont count! And working together? aaaank! No debbie cakes there either. and intransition wont be to good of an example either! He doesnt have kids either! I dont even know if we have any ex-members here who had a tassle of kids. Can I get a qualified witness? Amen? | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 199.76.157.222 |
lets_be_real, What kind of work did you and your wife do together? Is it real odd in the twelve tribes for families to work together? | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
We worked in a cafe together. Actually quite often once a week a family with children would work together as many as 4 or 5 covering different positions on an evening shift. | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 199.76.157.222 |
So, what do you think, lets_be_real? How do you like life in the "real world" vrs the community? I don't want to end up eating a baked potato by myself like Jody while my children are being molested. Does that make me a coward? | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
I think somtimes we don't consider life's problems in the real world. It seems easy to take shots at the community, finding there faults and short comings. I hate life in the world. I unfortunately have learned to trust no one. My own feelings even before I met the community is that if ever I ever had children I would never leave them with anyone apart from an immediate family member. I only left the community because of a difference of opinion. I have some wonderful friends in the community that I truly trusted my whole life to. It was great being bonded together in such a great purpose. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 55 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
It's easy to look back and romanticize about the good people you lived with. But remind me, what was that great purpose? To submit to over controlling leaders? To beat our children until they are blue? To give up our freedom to think for ourselves? To become God's of our own universe? No offense to you LBR, I am guilty of looking back often, but what was good about the TT were the sheep not the shepards and certainly not the cliff they are leading them towards. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 71 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"I only left the community because of a difference of opinion." How can you trivialize that? It had to be pretty serious for you to leave! Theres more to that story I'm sure. You just dont want to remember the pain of it right? It had to be painful to leave but what drove you out had to have been a more powerful force. So why play the ostrich now??? You'll get splinters in your butt from sitting on the fence! | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
BTW I believe I know who you are now... and yes "God has heard you". | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 73 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
BTW I believe I know who you are now... and yes, God has heard you. | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
Well, for once I agree with naba! Lets_be_real, you can't tell me that for all those years you spent in the twelve tribes you never had a difference of opinion with someone in the community before. What was so significant about this particular instance? I do trust people, not everyone of course, but I still know many good, well meaning people in my life. Yet, I don't think I could trust anyone with my life, in the sense of what is best for me, precisely because of differences of opinions, except for one person...I was lucky, blessed, fortunate, whatever you want to call it to find such a person. I wouldn't believe it was true if I didn't know it. I could marry one person, I just don't know about 12 tribes of people, especially if it means risking the only real love I've ever known, my family. I want it to be true, Lets_be_real, but even if it's not, there is still something to live for and love to die for...even if we just return to dust and the world ends in violence and sorrow, we still have today today, and tomorrow come what may. Good night | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
Voocitd, Yes I also suffered I spent 18 months in a certain community where I felt my best friend was the worldly man that owned an antique shop across the street. But those shepherds in that community don't function in that capacity anymore.And the fruit became evident in there lives.Like pilgrum said our heart is to truly love our brothers and sisters. I suffered at first over disciplining our children, then I saw the good fruit it bore when done as it is supposed to be. The bible is a pretty amazing book. The purpose we are called to, if you believe in the Son. It's the only hope we have. Unless you want to just live out your life in the world. It just doesn't do it for me. TRUTH This difference of opinion was more faith based then a personality conflict. I understand there stance in the matter but I had to go with what I had faith to do. Wouldn't you much rather give your life to a hope of bringing our Master back then just living out the string? To give eveything you had to what you believed in. Hopefully the community secures a strong foundation and then the race can begin. SHALOM | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
LBR - There's the rub. I don't believe Yoneq's twisted teachings! I don't believe the Messiah needs us to return. If you read my postings on this site, I think Yoneq had it wrong since he hit the Deluded phase of his ministry. So what we were "giving ourselves" to was a lie. We were doing it with some very well intentioned loving sheep but the shepard was deluded. "Don't grow your wool this way, grow it that way! Don't eat that grass, eat this grass!" He majors on minors and controls peoples lives. Sorry for the rant, but it really sounds like you are seriously thinking you are better off back at the TT. | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
I'm really glad I met the twelve tribes, I've learned so much from them that I believe to be true. I'd like to live with them one day, their purpose is wonderful. What are you going to do, lets_be_real? | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Tuth Seeker - Then why not today? Have you ever lived with them? If not, what have you really learned from them, what they write in their free papers? Because until you are emersed you do not get the real teachings. You also don't get the real abuse that a coercive controlling group has to offer. So jump in, swim around, but watch out for the sharks. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"Wouldn't you much rather give your life to a hope of bringing our Master back." How self important can you get? Like Voice said, do you actually believe that GOD needs YOU in order to come back??? Hell! He never left!!! "Unless you want to just live out your life in the world" You create your world! You make it lousy cuz thats what you think you deserve for not being in the community! Build yourself a good life! Your the "builder" the "ben" of your Fathers name. So you have the choice! You pick where you "just live out your life". You can "just live out your life " in the community too! So quit trying to get out of being a man and your accountability for your life no matter where you "just live it"! When your in the community, you have everything told to you and how to live and if you follow like a good little lemming, you arent accountable for anything because you say "I was doing as I was told! I was following orders! I was obeying God!!!". Cowboy up bro! Take back control over your life and be a man! Be accountable! The TT still has control over you and your life right NOW!!! Dont you see that? They control your misery and penance!!! So go make a good life and live it! And not "just" live it! There's a wonderful world that your TT shades are'nt allowing you to see.... Take them off!!! See again!!! | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 154 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.211.243 |
-- I don't want to end up eating a baked potato by myself like Jody while my children are being molested. --- Yes. And of course we know that in the "real world" no one ever ends up eating alone. No one's children ever get molested. This is so typical of the loss of perspective that comes with "cult" bashing. You are straining out the "gnat" (this teeny-tiny, insular group, the TT) and swallowing the camel (the big, wide world system itself). You're like a guy, after a nuclear holocaust, who says, "I don't want to end up in one of those bomb shelters. I hear they force everybody to ration the food and water down there. I'll just stay up here where I'm free to eat and drink as I please. And bake in the radiation." John S. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
So how is your "cult of one" going John? or have you got a "following" now? | ||
| divineintervention New member Username: divineintervention Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.192.17.123 |
john_s I can appreciate the sarcasm you offer however, you fail to remember that the "real world" people never claimed to be the anointed or the chosen people. I'm pretty sure these practices of which you make so light of are not accepted in the "real world" and if the Elders of whom have been both accused and arrested on molestation charges can't even live up to the "real world" level of acceptability, I certainly don't think they are up to being God's Chosen people. But maybe that's just my perspective. | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 156 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.212.175 |
--- I'm pretty sure these practices of which you make so light of are not accepted in the "real world" --- So where and how are people in the "real world" prosecuted for not responding to the loneliness of others? I haven't seen that law on the books yet. --- and if the Elders of whom have been both accused and arrested on molestation charges can't even live up to the "real world" level of acceptability, I certainly don't think they are up to being God's Chosen people. --- Their being God's chosen is a completely separate issue. If your problem is really with child abuse, authoritarianism, exploitation of labor, hypocrisy, etc., there is a billions-plus world just chock full of it. The fact that some choose to go after a miniscule, statistically insignificant group like the TT on these grounds just proves that they are not being honest about their motives and intent. The Amish use combustible engines to generate electricity for things like their milking machines. If you are passionately opposed to global warming are you going to go after the Amish? Are you going to center your protests and energies on the Amish? No. And if you're found attacking the Amish, every rational observer will know that you're attacking them for some other reason - its not really about global warming. Your actions will have belied your words. John S. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 61 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
So John S. What is your story? Sincerely. What are you FOR? It is obvious what you are against. What is your belief and who do you follow? HOW do you follow? You seem to be an expert on what NOT to do. So what do you know about what you SHOULD do? If you feel the TT are so insignificant to waste our time on, then what is so significant for you? What do you waste your time on? | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"We are all members of the Cult of life! And life contains all types of joys, all types of sufferings and injustices and eventually is fatal..." | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
I always appreciate John's posts. I guess what I'm really saying, John, is that I don't want to be a victim. I'd like to think I have some control over my life and the lives of my children. I know that is only true to a certain degree, but I'd be giving up much of my autonomy if I joined the twelve tribes. Do you think the twelve tribes communities are like bomb shelters, John? | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 15 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
voocitd, It's not that easy...I have a home, a job, a family, and pets. I'd have to give up all those things just to go live in the community. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 64 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
TS - If you haven't lived with them, I have a serious question for you. What have you learned from them and what is the source? FreePapers? Discussions with current members? Visits to communities? Reading David Derush postings? I am not attempting to be sarcastic or attack you in anyway. I will explain why I ask when you answer. Thanks. | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 16 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
Voocitd, Yes, everything you mentioned. | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
Naba, In 1986 I was 28 years old I was bartending and doing personal training in gyms. I was working maybe 25 hrs per week. I had 2 roomates living in my house. I had lent my dad's friend 20,000 and was collecting 200 per week in interest from him. Each Monday morning i would sit at my kitchen table and count out about $1200 put 200 in my pocket deposit the rest in the bank. I was driving a brand new nissan 300 zx. I was in fantastic shape. I had more women then I new what to do with. Get the picture. One day I was laying on my couch staring out the window a light rain falling. All that came to me was there had to be more to life then this. My mother thought I was just selfish. What she couldn't understand was that the world couldn't satisfy me. What really is there? larger houses nicer cars a life of simple pleasures. I met the community and thought wow, I want to make a difference with my life. I had faith spoken to me. Now I workout everyday eat all organic food I work at a health food store do personal training have a wonderful wife hope to have a child and still wonder. I have come full circle. What do you hope to accomplish in your life time? Surely more then living your life on Factnet | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 68 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
TS - Then, have you read Yoneq's personal internal teachings, that are not supposed to be available to anyone until they have been deemed "ready" to "receive" these? I have about 142 of these ranging from 1979 to 2004. If not, I encourage you to study these being covered by prayer and with your Bible as a cross check. If after that, the Holy Spirit tells you that Yoneq is the Apostle of God and Prophet and the return of Elijah, then you should do the following: 1. Take two breaths 2. Leave everything you have 3. Drive to the nearest community and give your life away. Otherwise, (in your mind) you are telling God himself, I see you and I hear you but all these things you have given me are more important to me than you are. Now before anyone thinks VOR has fallen off his rocker (or got back on it depending on your point of view  ), let me add the following. BUT, if you are like me, you will read, study, pray and be convicted that he is nothing more than a deluded, prideful wolf in sheep's clothing who is destroying peoples lives on this earth and many people's eternal salvation. | ||
| fatherofaking Junior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
i took a leap not a breath, VOR. right off my front porch, with nothing but the clothes on my back. i, however, did not have the benefit of being able to read the teachings, or this message board. i did it twice. 10yrs apart. the first time i went was during the island pond days. i did not become a member then because i had some doubts about whether i was ready, as did those in the community. i had a very embarrassing moment in the middle of town during a gathering. i stated to the entire group via a microphone that i wanted to go the water. i was brought down to the water and like a good christian, i started to pray. the first word out of my mouth was father. that was as far as i got. yoneq bellowed out: "your father is the devil!" i was speechless. yoneq then said: "bring him up out of the water, he is not ready." i didn't make it back to the water until 10yrs later. (Message edited by fatherofaking on January 11, 2008) | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 69 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
WOW. I have a similar story on my blog about a lady and her husband who came into the TT at different times. The TT tells you when you are ready. I can't believe he interrupted your baptism that way! How degrading. That is what I mean by coercive. Check out the story of the Brother and Sister on my blog: http://yattt.blogspot.com/ I plan to start to write analytical write ups (from a Biblical point of view) of Yoneq's teachings and post these on my blog to help educate people prior to them getting manipulated. | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
voocitd, Interesting advice, but I think I'll pass. I have read many of the teachings, and I have learned much from them. I wonder if it's acceptable to tell God (in my mind) that I'd like to do what's right if that means joining the twelve tribes, I just don't know how, and I need his help. I can't let go of this notion that's already been set into motion, there is just something irresistible about their message and life that I don't find anywhere else, though maybe I'm just a sucker for words, that is why I have to have more to go on, like experience. | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 157 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.212.214 |
--- So John S. What is your story? Sincerely. What are you FOR? --- For purposes of this discussion, I am for people taking a deep, serious, objective personal inventory of their lives and motivations. Questioning critically and applying reason are essential to this process. --- What is your belief and who do you follow? HOW do you follow? You seem to be an expert on what NOT to do. So what do you know about what you SHOULD do? --- I'm not here to try and "sell" anyone on either my faith or the community of believers with whom I serve. --- If you feel the TT are so insignificant to waste our time on, then what is so significant for you? What do you waste your time on? --- I did not say the TT were fundamentally insignificant. I said they were "statistically insignificant" if one is really a champion of human rights violations. Why don't you start a blog about Darfur or raise some money for that cause, for example? Do you really think there is greater suffering and greater urgency for rescue within the TT? On the other hand, if one is interested in contemporary/historical communal movements (like me) the TT becomes VERY statistically significant. Here's my take on you, Voodoo: You are a religious egomaniac, convinced your Christian tradition is the "true" one, acting as the doctrine police, rounding up and identifying the heretics. I think you are offended by TT doctrine, period, but will use whatever else you can, chuck it at the wall, and hope it sticks. You're sure not the first spiritual sheriff to come swaggering through here, and I'm sorry to say you sure won't be the last. John S. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 81 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"there is just something irresistible about their message and life that I don't find anywhere else" Yes it's awful enticing when someone offers you the promise of all your needs being met, the "greatest purpose on earth" and everlasting life. Is there a certain type of person who is more likely to join a cult? No. Individual vulnerability factors matter much more than personality type when it comes to joining or staying in a cult or abusive relationship. “Everyone is influenced and persuaded daily in various ways,” writes the late Margaret Singer, “but the vulnerability to influence varies. The ability to fend off persuaders is reduced when one is rushed, stressed, uncertain, lonely, indifferent, uninformed, distracted, or fatigued…. Also affecting vulnerability are the status and power of the persuader…. No one type of person is prone to become involved with cults. About two-thirds of those studied have been normal young persons induced to join groups in periods of personal crisis, [such as] broken romance or failures to get the job or college of their choice. Vulnerable, the young person affiliates with a cult offering promises of unconditional love, new mental powers, and social utopia. Since modern cults are persistent and often deceptive in their recruiting, many prospective group members have no accurate knowledge of the cult and almost no understanding of what eventually will be expected of them as long-term members.” Many cults have flourished in recent decades, and changes in recruitment styles and targets have occurred. In the 1970s and early ’80s, primarily young adults, either in college or some other life transition, joined these groups. At that time, cults were extremely active (and some still are) on college campuses and in places where young people congregate. Today, however, increasing numbers of people in their late twenties and older are joining cult groups or getting involved in abusive relationships. In fact, the majority of inquiries to cult information resources involve new recruits or adherents who are in their thirties to fifties, or even sixties. Still no single personality profile characterizes cult members. Most experts agree, though, that whether the joiner is young or old, certain predisposing factors may facilitate attraction to a cultic system, the success of recruitment and indoctrination efforts, and the length and depth of involvement. These factors include: A desire to belong Unassertiveness (the inability to say no or express criticism or doubt) Gullibility (impaired capacity to question critically what one is told, observes, thinks, and so forth) Low tolerance for ambiguity (need for absolute answers, impatience to obtain answers) Cultural disillusionment (alienation, dissatisfaction with the status quo) Idealism Susceptibility to trance-like states (in some cases, perhaps, due to prior hallucinogenic drug experiences) A lack of self-confidence A desire for spiritual meaning Ignorance of how groups can manipulate individuals (cont.) | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 82 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
A wide range of human susceptibility emerges when we combine the list of predisposing factors with the potential vulnerabilities mentioned above. The stereotype of a recruit is a young person worried about leaving college or uncertain about “facing life.” The reality, however, is that anyone, at any givin a moment of confusion, personal crisis, or simply a life transition may become attracted to or drawn in by a cult’s appeal. “New in town, lost a job, recently divorced, a friend or family member just died, need a career change, feel a little blue?” The unstable and anxious feelings experienced at such times make a person vulnerable, whether that person is twenty or seventy years old. If a vulnerable person happens to cross paths with a cult advertisement or personal recruiter putting forth even a mildly interesting offer, then that ad will likely pay for itself and that recruiter will stand a good chance of making her mark. According to Michael Langone, “Conversion to cults is not truly a matter of choice. Vulnerabilities do not merely ‘lead’ individuals to a particular group. The group manipulates these vulnerabilities and deceives prospects in order to persuade them to join and, ultimately, renounce their old lives.” While we are at it, let’s shatter another myth: people who join cults are not stupid, weird, crazy, weak-willed, or neurotic. Most cult members are of above-average intelligence, well adjusted, adaptable, and perhaps a bit idealistic. In relatively few cases is there a history of a pre-existing mental disorder. Anyone is capable of being recruited (or seduced) into a cult if his personal and situational circumstances are right. Currently there are so many cults formed around so many different types of beliefs that it is impossible for a person to truthfully claim that he would never be vulnerable to a cult’s appeal. Cult recruitment is not mysterious. It is as simple and commonplace as the seduction and persuasion processes used by lovers and advertisers. However, depending on the degree of deception and manipulation involved, the resultant attachments can be even more powerful. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 83 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Lets_be_real, "What do you hope to accomplish in your life time?" Right now I'm doing a lot of volunteer work here at the VA hospital, the Madison Senior Center and also here on FACTNet.(news editing and postings, news letters) I also do volunteer boat Capt. work (20 hrs per week) for the city in spring and summer. My health does not allow much more. Im also reaquainting myself with my family and getting closer everyday. Its been a long time since Ive been "home". Im a different person now and they are getting to know me also. I also hope to help at a new farm community starting up for exiting or ex cult members and also those down on their luck. I hope that I can live a good life by helping others. A bit like "pure religion". James 1:27 Seems like your doing well! You just need to lose all that fear in you and open up to others and develope some trust! BTW I wish I had gotten the chance to know you and your wife better (you've been blessed) but you know that really couldnt have happened for fear of being "over familiar", also you being in your position and me in mine... I remember just barely getting a glimpse of you at that meeting you were at in Rutland. It sure would have been nice if we just had had the time to sit and talk... "intransition" really would like to hear from you, and his wife would like to here from yours. If you wish, you can email me at nabashalam@yahoo.com and I will give you his email address and ph#. Im actually meeting him in a hour for coffee. YES! COFFEE!!! Fresh ground! | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 158 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.211.136 |
--- Do you think the twelve tribes communities are like bomb shelters, John? --- Not in a literal sense, just a symbolic one. This is true of the TT and other groups as well; those who deem certain atmospheres and environments noxious and so seek to limit their exposure by building an insulated wall via separatism in community. But in so doing (like living in a bomb shelter) one must accept the costs that come with salvation from the poisons: limited freedom of choice, movement and consumption. John S. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Dont forget most groups, including the TT have an eschatological twist and "hiding" scenario in their doctrine. ie "fleeing to the wilderness"...etc... The "bomb shelter" syndrome! | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 81 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
John S wrote: "Here's my take on you, Voodoo: You are a religious egomaniac, convinced your Christian tradition is the "true" one, acting as the doctrine police, rounding up and identifying the heretics. I think you are offended by TT doctrine, period, but will use whatever else you can, chuck it at the wall, and hope it sticks. Well so much for civil discussion. Thanks for classifying and dismissing me. I am so used to it that it doesn't bother me anymore. You are right, I am offended by TT doctrine and its false leaders. As for being the doctrine police rounding up the heretics: nope I am singularly focused on Yoneq. Got no interest or time for anyone else. Use whatever else I can: don't think so, I use the Word of God only (in my world that is the Bible). I try not to spin it as to fall into the same trap as Yoneq. I think it speaks for itself or rather God speaks through it. As for the religious egomaniac thinking my Christian tradition is the true on: Well realistically John, which one of us is going to stand up and say, "I am fully committed to following the one "False" path? It leads to certain death and eternal damnation and I am proud to be a member"? Once again, simply just a coercive tactic to classify and dismiss someone who is thinking for themself and being as Naba put it assertive enough to have the ability to say no and express criticism and doubt. That is why I am not in the TT today. I was sincere in asking you those questions because you were so strong about what you were against that I thought you must have something worth believing. I could have been wrong, and yet, who knows. I hope you find God in whatever path you have chosen to follow. | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 159 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.212.150 |
Well Voodoo, you started out claiming your issue with the TT lay in their fruit - bad human behavior. As I pointed out, if bad human behavior is really your life's concern, it makes no sense to go after a tiny, fractional sliver of the human population. Now you admit that your real problem with the TT IS their doctrine. Better late than never I guess. It's all exactly as I described. I don't see how you can be in any way disturbed by what I wrote. Your agenda was pretty transparent from the get go. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 82 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
One way to discern good doctrine is to inspect the fruit. It is becoming more apparent that you just like to cause trouble so I think we don't have much more to say to each other. Naba has more history with you so maybe there was something in his comment about your "cult of one". I don't know what that meant. All I know is you are now twisting my words and the facts. I could waste my time going back to my previous posts to prove this to you, but it would be just that, a waste of time. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 87 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
John_S was quite the "cult basher" himself at one time and it grieves me how he can even think of picking up a stone let alone throwing a few.(I for one am/was one of the worse offenders) He could make some good points and actually he has, but with his method and tone he alienated many to where they couldnt or wouldnt hear what he was saying. If he would just remember the phases he has gone through himself and when he sees someone else at that stage to pass on what he learned from his lesson and show some empathy rather than belittling those who are going through the same things that he did, he would be quite the healer. John, If you are here to help in the post cult healing then you must work constructively and not destructively. Build up, not tear down. When you speak with anger, bitterness and indignation instead of love all that does is hurt others, yourself, and achieves nothing but more damage... and we all have been hurt enough... I have known John as one who is always right in his own eyes. That is why I used the term "cult of one". I realize that in itself was not uplifting and I humbly apologise John. You actually could be a great help here... Dont be such a stranger. One thing foak said on a different thread made me question his statement... "We may have similar experiences but that is as far as it goes." I would like to add to that... I believe we all have a hole in our heart that needs to be filled. What we put in it is up to us and whatever it is, it is neither right nor wrong. It just is. Even if we dont find anything we wish to fill it with. But, some dont want others to see the hole and hide it, and others want to say "Hey! I have one just like yours! We are alike! We are brothers! Let us reason together! And if your fortunate enough, and have the courage to be vulnerable, you can fill each others heart with encouragement, trust, understanding, respect, friendship and love... Yeah yeah, I know... Im just feeling kinda zen but it came from my heart... | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 162 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.212.141 |
My point here has had nothing to do with whether one is or is not a "cult" basher. It has to do with being upfront and consistent concerning our agenda. Unless I missed it, Voocitd's first posts on Factnet announced that it was time to judge Yoneq's fruit. Yoneq had repudiated Christianity based on its bad fruit, so now, after 30 some years, it was time to inspect the fruit of the Twelve Tribes. And Voocitd decreed that Yoneq's fruit was in no way superior to that produced by the Christian system he had condemned. Now here's the irrational conclusion Voocitd draws from this: Christianity is proven true and the TT false! So bad fruit in Christianity validates Christianity? But bad fruit in the Tribes INvalidates them? Wouldn't the logical mind conclude instead that the bad fruit either invalidates neither or invalidates both? Then Voocitd shifted gears and appeared to say (not in so many words) "Bad fruit is what we can expect from Christianity - Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. Instead, Christianity's superiority lay in its sound, biblical doctrines. Yoneq's doctrines are heretical!" It was in response to these assertions that I began the Short Assignment thread. Voocitd lives in some sort of either/or straitjacket. And because I am not, and have never been, fully aligned with either of the two competing camps, he accuses me of arguing with myself; of chasing leprechauns. I think Hitler and Nazism were a bad deal. I also think Stalin and Soviet communism were a bad deal. If I don't take up arms as either a German or a Russian, does that make me a schizophrenic? Here's a radical thought, Voocitd... There may be a third option in life. John S. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
 | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"There may be a third option in life." and what might that be? The Bruderhoff? Now when you say a third option in life, it sounds like you talking about the options within Judeo/Christianity! Sorry dude, theres 1000s of denominations. Plus life does not equal Christianity. There is life outside of it. So actually there are billions of options! Nazism and Soviet Communism had their good points as well as the TT and mainstream Christianity. I like my Grandfathers philosophy about Church and life itself, "Keep what you need and get rid of the rest..." and yes he actually told me this... | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 92 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Open Letter to John_S  http://yatttdiscuss.blogspot.com/ | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
by the way voice, after 12 years in TT, I have never nor will I ever "beat" my children until they are blue. I feel bad for those that have in or out of the TT. That is NOT a practice of TT members. Unfortunately, as in all places where there rests authority, some will "abuse" this rule over others. This surely isn't an exclusive TT subject. This kind of stuff happens all over the earth and yes, we are here too, the good, the bad & the ugly. Just because there have been a few bad apples in the bunch does that mean the entire tree is rotten? Usually the rotten apples fall to the ground first and they might even knock off a few that are completely sound... I do not practice rotten behavior... and smacking children around is pretty rotten... usually if someone is living their life in that manner one of two things will happen: 1. they won't stick around long in the TT or 2. they will see the error of their ways and change. I've seen both many times! | ||
| voocitd Intermediate Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 102 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Welcome back Pilgrum. We missed you. Yoneq has taught and wrote very extensively on taking the rod to the child until you leave marks. Have the teachings on child training changed in this regard? Would you consider threatening to cut a child's finger off as an object lesson, excessive? | ||
| nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 103 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Voice, do you have a link or copy of such writings? I mean about "blue marks". | ||
| voocitd Intermediate Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 104 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Below are references directly from Yoneq: "Unless your son has blue wounds, by this standard, you know what kind of standard is in you – it is the spirit that hates your son. If one is overly concerned about his son receiving blue marks you know that he hates his son and hates the word of God." Elbert Spriggs, Execution of Justice, Page 1 Tell Hannah that Hephzibah is like Paul and says: “From now on let no one cause me trouble for I bear on my body the brand marks of Yahshua.” They are blue and she is receiving her discipline. She is growing up to be that last generation, being prepared, even in her nervous system, to be in that hour of supreme demand. Love Elbert. Elbert Spriggs, Execution of justice, Page 4 Underdiscipline accomplishes nothing. It is better not to discipline our children at all –“The blueness of the wound drives away all evil”. FANTASY (pretending) leads to lying – it is the same spirit. Child Training Notes from Teacher’s Meeting – October 1980, Page 5 And here is the link to the Twelve Tribes Teaching site: http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/child_training.htm | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
well, all I can tell you is that we do not teach others to spank or beat children as you say: "to leave blue marks... as far as threatening to cut a child's finger off, sure sounds excessive... but I wasn't there and neither were you so the black & white (letters, I mean) leaves room for all kinds of absurdities. you might be able to find a teaching like what you are referring to... I certainly can't... I've got the child training books and mine doesn't read that anywhere and in my years with TT this was never taught to me nor have I taught others in this way. We spank our children, yes. I spank my children. Do I abuse and beat my children? NO. | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
ok, you quote some pretty old stuff here. This is 2008, not 1980 or otherwise... is it not possible to learn a few things along the way...? anyway, I reiterate, regardless of what was said and for what purpose the objective of spanking our children is not "blue marks". The objective of spanking our children is to teach them how to be respectful, diligent, full of care, honest, upright people of integrity that know in their hearts that their parents actually give a damn about their future unlike many children that grow up in the world of today... and of course it is obvious we haven't yet arrived at perfecting this. It is perhaps one of the most challenging things on the face of the earth to raise up children that will take on your heart and follow in your footsteps... | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
Your a wonderful man Pilgrum | ||
| voocitd Intermediate Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Pilgrum - You and I appear to share the same thinking on raising and disciplining children (from what you are saying here). However, Yoneq's teachings and actions and my experience as well as the experience of many here has been different. This is why I asked if the teaching had changed. If I were in the TT today, I would certainly think twice before allowing Yoneq and ha Emeq to have my kids for the weekend. | ||
| nabashalam Intermediate Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 109 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Pilgrum, This is what so many of us ex-TTers want to know! Have things changed? Why in the world doesnt someone in the TT come here and tell us all that you have learned by your mistakes,humble yourselves, admit them, maybe even apologize for a few,(I know thats something the TT has never done until recently when they actually apologized to an ex-member who's children were molested)and tell us how it is now! Now when you say spank, that usually refers to using the hand. Do you still "switch" children because it's the closest thing you can get to the "rod"? Ive seen some children get "switched" brought back to a meal and 5 minutes later they are getting it again and this goes on all day sometimes! It also beats the hell out of the mother or father who is doing it! Are babies spanked? Ive seen 2 year olds "switched" for hours! Pilgrum, I am thankful your here and for some reason sense a kind, humble heart who is here to help clear some things up.... Thanks! | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
I am sure many people have made mistakes that they wish they could undo... As far as leaving your children with Yoneq & ha Emeq for the weekend??? Contrary to popular opinion on this here OPINIONet Message Board your children would actually do much better with Yoneq & ha-Emeq for the weekend than with a whole lot of others right here in the Community. While it is true that our hope is to fulfill our God's heart that we would be ONE not everyone has yet arrived at that place of "spiritual maturity" shall we say. Their heart might be good and true but not everyone has yet learned how to apply the "teachings" or the things they've learned apart from laying down law. There are few, relatively speaking, in the TT that rival the ability in Yoneq & ha-Emeq in the way of showing mercy & compassion to others. You can quote teachings all day long if you like and interpret them to whatever degree you wish but Yoneq is a man. (Yes, it is true. He is a human being. I am sorry to disappoint anyone that might have thought otherwise but Yoneq is not God.) He has a human heart and soul. He actually does understand that we are not perfect and he certainly does not wield it over people some unattainable standard. He has a great deal of understanding for the human condition as pitiful as most of us are at getting it right all the time. Who said we were supposed to anyway? We're all learning and hopefully growing. Lets_be_real put it well when he spoke about following the recipe. It comes to everyone the desire to add or alter the recipe a bit according to ones own tastes or temperament and this is not always "bad" in and of itself but sometimes the results are not so palatable. | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
hey, let's face it naba. any father or mother is accountable for how they raise their own children. yes, as a "brother" or "shepherd" I too am responsible to help my brother be a good parent. Hopefully if I saw my friend dealing with his children in a way that is potentially harmful I would say something to him. The "teachings" are instructions or guidelines for us just as the Proverbs and other such writings in the Bible. Would we not do well to observe such things? Would Israel actually prosper if they observed the ways of their God in His instruction to them? It takes a spiritual man to understand the "spirit" of the law just as the Son of God and Paul and I'm sure others have said. So too, it takes a spiritual man to understand the spirit of the "teachings" we've received in the TT. I know in some states it is considered "illegal" (at least as far as DSS is concerned) to spank your children with anything else but your own hand. I disagree with this. Spanking your children in the proper manner, with your own spirit & emotions under control, with love is actually very effective and not abusive at all. How many people on earth smack their children around with their own hand or with their filthy & degenerate mouth for that matter? I don't "switch" my children. I spank them in love with the rod as it says in the Proverbs. Sure, I am not perfect at this all the time but I sure know that when I discipline my children with my spirit under control, talking with them, teaching them, hugging them... they love me for it. The purpose of it is to train them... it's not to beat them into submission. It's a matter of the heart. Your question about two year olds... It is up to each parent to decide at what age they ought to administer some form of discipline to their child in order that the child would grow to know that their father or mother is in control and they will not grow up a spoiled American living to get what they want all the time when they want it even at the cost of others. To apply the same discipline to a 2 year old as to a 6 or 7 year old is certainly not something we teach. Let's use a bit of common sense here. I call it one of the lost senses. It's actually the sixth sense: smell, sight, sound, taste, touch, & common- that's the one that got lost over the ages. It's something that needs to be restored to all of us. | ||
| fatherofaking Junior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 50 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
"Unless your son has blue wounds, by this standard, you know what kind of standard is in you – it is the spirit that hates your son. If one is overly concerned about his son receiving blue marks you know that he hates his son and hates the word of God." Elbert Spriggs, Execution of Justice, Page 1 Tell Hannah that Hephzibah is like Paul and says: “From now on let no one cause me trouble for I bear on my body the brand marks of Yahshua.” They are blue and she is receiving her discipline. She is growing up to be that last generation, being prepared, even in her nervous system, to be in that hour of supreme demand. Love Elbert. Elbert Spriggs, Execution of justice, Page 4 Underdiscipline accomplishes nothing. It is better not to discipline our children at all –“The blueness of the wound drives away all evil”. FANTASY (pretending) leads to lying – it is the same spirit. Child Training Notes from Teacher’s Meeting – October 1980, Page 5 these teachings stand in total contradiction to what you just said pilgrum. i noticed that you did not respond to me directly on the home school thread. you simply make excuses. i wish that these teachings could be interpreted differently. the way you say that children should be disciplined is correct. they should never be beaten under any circumstance. that is not what yoneq's teachings say. if you cannot see that then you are in denial. i know that christ does not lie. if you all really were following christ it would not take 30 plus years for things to get better. you make a mockery of the words of christ. are you still not able to understand the meat of the gospel after 30yrs? you are in denial pilgrum. i pray that you will one day see that. if not for your sake then for the sake of those that you shepherd. | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.19.249 |
Have things changed? The heart is the same. It's strong & it's got a steady beat. But sure there are things that we see where we might have missed it or even all together blown it. When I say that I mean more on a personal level as individuals. But most people here seem to blame every mistake on the whole or on Yoneq rather than on the individual. Yoneq doesn't direct our every move or thought contrary to what is said here. I think people could stand to be a bit more reasonable about this aspect of life in the TT. Have we learned from our mistakes? I sure hope we have. But unfortunately some people repeat the same things over & over again. Hopefully they will catch on at some point. A little love and attention goes a long way for most people. A friend of mine once said: "you are unwise if you have not learned from your mistakes. you are a fool if you haven't learned from those that haven't learned from their mistakes." | ||
| fatherofaking Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
if we are supposed to interpret the "spirit" of the teachings as you say then why weren't they written according to the spirit? you make a mockery of our ability to understand the written word and a mockery of christ himself. yoneq's teachings are clear. they do not contain the spirit of christ. you are in denial pilgrum. the things of which you speak are the way things should be, not the way they are. after 30yrs the mind of christ should be evident to all. instead this is what is evident. Heb. 5:11ff Heb 5:11 Of whom we have much to say which it is hard to make clear, because you are slow of hearing. Heb 5:12 And though by this time it would be right for you to be teachers, you still have need of someone to give you teaching about the first simple rules of God's revelation; you have become like babies who have need of milk, and not of solid food. Heb 5:13 For everyone who takes milk is without experience of the word of righteousness: he is a child. Heb 5:14 But solid food is for men of full growth, even for those whose senses are trained by use to see what is good and what is evil. | ||
| voocitd Intermediate Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 110 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Father - I hear your heart in both these threads and want to encourage you that God is speaking through you to me if no-one else. I feel the pain of a father who was fooled into applying a standard to his son that was wrong. It may be God's blessing that your son has blocked these memories. I pray that God can help you to forgive yourself and bring healing to your heart. It sounds like you have a great kid who loves you. What a great opportunity to demonstrate to him that although as men and even fathers, we make mistakes and God forgives us and can heal us. I am praying for you. Pilgrum - A major whole in your position is the fact the TT preach they are the only ones with the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to say some of the followers had it wrong, but when the head of the tree has it wrong in his teachings which he proclaims come from God, then there is no excuse. Only the opportunity to repent. This should start at the top and work its way down. |
