| Author | Message | ||
     voocitd New member Username: voocitd Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Is Yoneq Deceiptful or Delusional? - Teaching that the TT is the only church with the Holy Spirit - Teaching that he has a direct line to God - Teaching that he and his followers will rule galaxies and be like God (in essence, be gods) - Controlling people's lives to the point of bondage. Many on this board have said that he is a humble generous man who really believes what he preaches. I have heard at least on person state that he created a cult out of spite for the Christian Church. Is there any support for this? An original apostolic worker who has testified to this? Any documented support? His teachings are pure heresy by the standards of the Christian Church. And I know, many of you (not all) no longer (or perhaps never did) value Christian tenants. However, the reason Christians defend their faith against the TT and the reason the TT spends most of its energy in attacking Christianity more than other religions is that the TT is a fundamentally Christian based NT cult. The TT's main outreach and draw is to very sincere Christians who are looking for a way to better serve Christ. I know they reach others and have a draw to those seeking utopia as well. But there is a reason they park their bus outside Billy Graham crusades and Promise Keepers and not the Moonies. So if Yoneq is deceiptful then it would be because he is deceived himself. Many have mentioned how similar the TT's practices and beliefs are to other cults. Could that be because they are all deceived by the same spirit? I know, I am in danger of condeming myself to the Lake of Fire for saying such a thing. I have come to believe that that is just a scare tactic that Yoneq has enstilled in his followers (and in others as well) to get them to stop questioning his authority. So I really want to know what others think about this. | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.70.5.56 |
you've become quite a prolific writer on this site... though it seems like you'd be better off leaving the bible and the tenets of Christianity out of your arguments altogether since you end up doing precisely what you CONDEMN Yoneq & others of the TT of: interpreting scriptures & reasoning to your own end. for someone that claims to have been affiliated with the TT for the past 30 years it is amazing how grossly you distort reality. Sounds like Rick Ross has gotten into you... It's this kind of stuff that makes it nearly impossible for anyone in the TT to have any sort of humane dialog on this message board.} | ||
| voocitd New member Username: voocitd Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
What scripture did I interpret above? Can you respond to my question or are you going to be like DD and just attack my character and try to associate me with someone else you dislike (I know who Rick Ross is but I don't know him or follow him). Being a TT member with some leadership responsibilities you could have responded at the very least with a third option. But instead you follow the script and attack the person verses the idea. | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.162.83.224 |
I certainly don't mean to attack you as a person. I don't even know you. I am more responding to the ideology that Yoneq is a delusional deceiver and that we are all just puppets under his control. That is absurd. As far as the interpretation of scripture it seems that you simply feel that anything that deviates from conventional Christianity is off the "mark" which makes the assumption that Christianity as it is known today (depending on which version one subscribes to) never deviated from it's original precepts. If your question is this: "Is Yoneq deceitful or delusional? I would say neither. He is a man that is following something deep in his heart that God would have a people that he has always desired. A people with one heart and one way. Do you really want me to answer your other questions? I don't know if you really want me to. What I mean is, I am not persuaded that you would accept my answers as true. It is sad that this is what seems to continually be the result of the dialog here between TT members & those that have either left or those that are simply here to attack everything that the TT stands for, an impasse. I am truly sorry if I attacked your character, that is by no means my intention. It is clear to me that there are many good people here on this site that want their voice to be heard. Some are searching, some have obviously really suffered at the hands of those that claim to have the truth. How many people on earth have claimed to know God but are far from representing his kindness, compassion & tenderness toward others that really desire to know Him? I am sure there have been those in the TT that have misrepresented the true character of God. I wish it wasn't that way... but sadly it has been so... but I don't think that should take away from the goodness of the hearts of those that really want to make it work, not just because Yoneq says so but because we believe in it that the sacrifice of the Son could produce a people that love each other enough to stick it out together through thick & thin... maybe with that heart we can actually get healed from the malady of mankind that causes separation... I'll stop there...this stuff just wears me out. Surely God is big enough to enable those to be truly one that claim to know Him & claim to obey Him. That is my hope. Am I a wicked cultist nut-case because of it? | ||
| voocitd New member Username: voocitd Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Actually, Pilgrum, based on this last post you sound to me to be a very reasonable caring person. You do have to accept the fact however this is a sight established to Fight Against Coercive Tactics (Network). I sense from you a strong desire to do what is right like many of those who are within the TT. However, I disagree with my entire heart with the leadership and teaching of Yoneq. Unlike within the TT, here in this space, I am allowed to speak my mind and ask my questions. Because of that I was sincere in starting this post in trying to determine is he outwardly, intentionaly deceiving people or does he really believe what he teaches. Your response that he is neither is what I would expect from anyone who has given their life and loyalty to his teachings. It is a valid opinion. I am looking for others as well. As for your question, do I want you to respond to my other questions? Absolutely, as I want other free thinking individuals to do as well. As long as we can discuss the ideas and not attack each others character or try to place each other in buckets (Rick Ross) and therefore dismiss them. I think your responses on this board so far have been a breath of fresh air compared to many of the abusive ramblings of David Derush and the very abusive responses of the wantabe's that poke in and out. Thank you for having the courage and patience to dialogue with me. | ||
| voocitd New member Username: voocitd Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Please bear with me awhile and allow me to address some of the ideas you presented in your last post. First: "you simply feel that anything that deviates from conventional Christianity is off the "mark" which makes the assumption that Christianity as it is known today (depending on which version one subscribes to) never deviated from it's original precepts." No this is not true. I am not defending any denomination in general or Christianity as a whole. My desire is to defend the Word of God which was inspired by Him and protected by Him down through the ages. Yoneq accepts this in that he uses the base words as his foundation but then adds to it in his interpretation. For example, other than devine revelation, how does he support the teaching that TT followers will rule over their own galaxies and be like God (have His character, etc. etc. etc.). This is an addition to the gospel. The problem with Churches, even those in Paul's days, is they are filled with humans. Humans err and need correction. Not by one "annointed" apostle but by brothers and sisters who love God and long to do His will. Now I am well aware of the mind-numbing mantra that we must have the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha Kodesh)or we have nothing to give our brothers. I write it down so that it does not numb my mind and I can go on. Would anyone argue that Paul, Barnabas and Peter had the Holy Spirit? And yet they argued strongly and at length over what Paul and Barnabas felt were legalistic practices and requirements being placed on new believers. So to believe that because there are denominations that have differences of opinions prove they do not have the Ruach Ha Kodesh is simply put, bad thinking. And yet this is the basis for Yoneq's entire ministry. So do I think that anything that deviates from conventional Christianity is off the "mark"? No. I allow that as humans we make errors. We will not be perfected until we see Messiah face to face. But when a person stands up and says, "Everyone living today and for the past 1900 years that practices Christianity is an apostate and void of the Holy Spirit and I am the only one left doing God's will so follow me" I say in my heart, "That is off the mark" or falls short of the mark or put another way is sinful. | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Pilgrum, Thanks for hanging in here...as Voice said, you are appreciated. (eek! My old cult speak is bubbling up!  ) Rick Ross is a genuine butthead... Here are some more reputable folks... http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/t/tribes/ http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t29.html BTW Pilgrum..."It's hard to see the whole picture when your inside the frame!". Pilgrum, I had a great post already to go for ya yesterday but FACTNet crashed on me and I lost it. I'll try to re-construct it. You see, I'm not going to try and pin you in a corner with some tough doctrinal questions. I just want to see if the TT has eased up or re-thought or re-considered some of your major tenants. You expressed that you all might not be the "Bride" or that you might fall short and Messiah will not return because you fell short of properly preparing the "Bride". Doesnt that ring of "works salvation"? Shouldnt the "Bride" be prepared by something other then human hands? Even in this day of modern communication/internet do you feel that there might be "Flocks you know not of"? I know all 12 Tribes are established (I realize there are other factors that need to be in place also. BTW What ever happened to the "apprentice program"? Truthfully!) so has the 50 Year "Race" begun? How do you all plan on observing a "Sabbath Year"? Will you only literally "let your fields drop" at the couple of actual farms you have and continue as usual with all your other industries or what? Do you still believe you will raise up the 144,000 virgin males in 50 years?(The Zakar) Do you still see a community "in every place"? Thousands of them? One last question... When is the last time you read the Book of Galatians? Do me a favor, re-read it. Its a short book so it wont take too much time. This time read it with a different mind set. Imagine the book was sent to the attention of The Twelve Tribes Communities/Commonwealth of Israel instead of the Church in Galatia. Then get back with me... Shalom! (I know you are forbidden to have true peace with this defector but so far I have it with you brother! Yeah I know, Im not your brother anymore....thats a bucket of HOGWASH!!!  ) | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 70.19.206.131 |
I will say this much in answer to your question. Well, first thank you for your response. Now, does Yoneq believe in what he teaches or is he intentionally deceiving people? The answer to that question is yes, he believes wholeheartedly & with many a tear shed in what he teaches, the essence of which is love one another & in that we will be "like God". In some ways, we have already become "like Him" just as God spoke as recorded in Gen. 3:5. But as far as representing His character that is our hope as it says that we are to become like God, Matt. 5:48. Jesus said to those following him: "if you've seen me you've seen the Father..." Wouldn't it follow that if we actually did all that He said we would represent Him? Is that not what He has desired that there would be a people that would manifest His character to the world? Is that not the light of the world? As far as having our own galaxies to rule over in the eternal age... well that is something that is not very clear in the scriptures... it is something we have talked about and wondered about as far as becoming like stars that shine in the universe or even speculating about the purpose for the universe & all those planets & all those galaxies... what is it all for anyway? If man is God's highest of all creation would He not desire that he fill all that He has made & continue to beautify it and cultivate it and populate it in all of his glory? Let's face it man is quite amazing & if he was left to do only good all the time what beauty would come forth from his hand. These subjects are not such concrete "teachings" as you make it seem but rather more the contemplations of a pretty amazing and even stupefying Creator. So, if this site is a network mainly for those that are in a fight against coercive tactics,well, I am torn. I too am in such a fight against the coercive tactics of a genius that devises schemes to limit the amazing attributes of man. I too am in a fight against the coercive tactics of an aggressive society that makes lame the good nature of the masses of people as they grow further & further from the roots of integrity & good character. But... I don't think my fight will be won by going on any further on this site... for my fight is not against you but it is against a power that is destroying man & the earth, wouldn't you agree? I'm not out to get you VOOCITD, I don't mean to throw you in a bucket with the likes of Rick Ross. It's just that I live my life in the TT with my wife and three children and it is strange to me how far different my daily life is from what most people on this site have to say about the life I live ever day. So, I thought I would just offer a bit of my two cents into the mix here and see what happens. But I don't really have much time to spend here so I think that will be all from me... but I might check back from time to time. Farewell. lets_be_real if you happen to see this I still think you're a good man. | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 70.19.206.131 |
my last post was to answer voocitd... | ||
| voocitd New member Username: voocitd Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Pilgrum - I have enjoyed talking to you. If you don't mind can I ask how long you have been in the TT? I am in a similar situation as you in that what you are saying and how you are saying it is very different from my experiences with the TT. I would love to know your name and community and position within the community and Edah. But that is probably asking too much. Feel free to come back. I would love to talk to you offline if possible. You can email me at VOOCITD@comcast.net if you are interested in a private discussion. If you ever need someone out here in the "Nations", I am available to you. Shalom! | ||
| truth_seeker New member Username: truth_seeker Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.140.188.26 |
Farewell Pilgrum, Thank you for posting here. I wish you could stay, as I know you would have many other wonderful things to share, but I understand how you must not have much time to spend here. Maybe one day my family will have the privilege to meet you and your wife and three children, that would be nice. So, I won't say good bye, maybe just, see you later! Thanks again, T_S | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Any other thoughts on this topic? How about the person who claimed Yoneq started the early group out of spite and is deliberately deceiving people "because he can"? I don't find any proof of this. No documented support. I will have to do some research and find out who said that. Anyone know or heard anything similar? | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
I wont say adios just yet. If Pilgrum hasnt been "caught" posting here and directed to stay off I think he will return when he can. There are still un-addressed questions here for him and staying away from factnet is as difficult as not getting some popcorn after you've just gotten a good whiff of it... Thats brings up another question I have for ya Pilgrum.(I feel kinda John Waynish when I use that word. ) What about information control? Do you not consider limiting and controlling a man's sources of information and telling him what information is profitable for him to know and what is not "coercive tactics of a genius that devises schemes to limit the amazing attributes of man"? | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Voice, I wouldnt even give air to such a stupid and ridiculous accusation. It doesnt even deserve to be repeated... | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Naba - My gut response to your post was, "I need to defer to Naba's wisdom and drop this." Then I gave in to "reasoning" and thought a bit more. The problem is this issue has been repeatedly raised and it has been aired. I was trying a different approach instead of just repeating it (like I did with the 10% tithe) asking someone to defend it. I want to let it get exposed to the light and see if there is anything in it otherwise disprove it and be done with it. Someone out there made the accusation, and I have read it at least three different places, I think I may have first seen it on IOTTC. How about a compromise. I will actively search for the person who posted this statement and ask them to support it. Then I will come back here and let you know what I find. All this reasoning and compromise, no wonder I am not a good fit for the TT.  | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Well, what goes for the goose should go for the gander... "If it smells like smoke...." | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
Pilgrum I thought that was you. Feelings mutual. I wish things hadn't gotten so messed up. | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 65.240.177.90 |
I am in a little bit of a bad mood tonight and have a spirit of sarcasm. I was reasoning with myself and that lead to me pondering thoughts about the whole pearls before swine concept. I know that a non-believer who does not have the Holy Spirit can't understand deep spiritual issues. However, there are some teachings in the Edah that are more a way of life and "policy and process related" and there are covenants that are required that should be communicated upfront without having to "condition" or "prepare" or otherwise manipulate people into "receiving" (i.e. cognitive dissonance). And then I got to thinking, what would a full disclosure recruiting script sound like for the Twelve Tribes. Here is what I came up with: “Welcome to the Twelve Tribes, please spend as much money as you can with us because we need to ensure our Prophet has enough money to expand our real estate holdings and fly around the world starting other communities where people like me can nearly starve to death and raise our children and beat them until they are black and blue. You are welcome to move in with us as long as you denounce all other religious loyalties and promise you will never leave, and be willing to submit unquestionably to our elders and supreme leader who is in fact the only conduit to God. Please leave your brain outside as you will no longer need (or be allowed) to think for yourself because our elders will think for you. But please bring your money, real estate, stocks and bonds and everything else with you so we can liquidate these and give the proceeds to our Apostle to spend as he sees fit. And we want you to have it your way so if your wife or husband does not want to join you/us, that’s ok. Abandon them because our Prophet Elijah says they are going to burn in the Lake of Fire anyway. Oh, and we have a no-money back guarantee. If you do choose to leave us, or we decide with little or no notice to kick you out, you will not get your money or any of your belongings back and you will drop dead because God will kill you. Have a nice day” | ||
| divineintervention New member Username: divineintervention Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.192.17.123 |
Wow Voice! If that is the result of a "little bit of a bad mood" then I would hate to see you down right grumpy. Per a phone conversation that I had earlier today, I took the advice to check out this site and I have to say that it really can be addicting. I've found myself reading blogs since early this afternoon and also having experience with TT members I'm finding myself very frustrated. Is it just me or does anyone else see the overwhelming pattern of tribe members talking in circles rather than just answering questions? If this has been noticed, do you think it is because they don't have the answers, don't know the answers, have to be told how to answer, or just don't want to admit to themselves or anyone else the truth?  | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Great observation divineintervention. By the way, I had a sister tell me to talk to a brother today to ensure he is taking care of himself physically and spiritually and I did. When I called him, he was really open to hearing what I had to say. I love it when the body works as it should. I am glad a friend told you to join us. You are welcome (by most of us anyway). There are some great people here that I think you will enjoy talking to. All this brotherly and sisterly love without a community. What will come of us?  | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 35 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
There is the "pearls before swine" excuse. That we as non-covenant brothers are not worthy of their "truth". There is also the possibility that they dont have the answers, just blind faith and obedience to what they are told. Or arent sure what they "should" say or what the "anointing" would say. So most are very non-commital and dodge questions with rhetoric. Kinda like the elections!  Voice, If you dwell on it, your bitterness will surely rise. I dont believe it ever goes away. You just learn how to control it. What I have found is that most of that bitterness comes from the fact that the TT arent who they say they are and the fact is that the "who" that we wanted so badly will never exist and that we were duped, even though unintentionally, into believing that they were and we gave them our all... "It" wont happen, never will, probably was never meant to be... no matter how much we wish "It" would... Live goes on....for now... | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 30 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Wise words Naba. Thank you. I feel better. Shalom | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.74.18.92 |
there is also the hunch or notion one gets from someone that asks a question but in such a way that reveals they think they already have the answer and it is not the one you give them. so, it could come to you: why bother? haven't you ever felt that way naba? I came back mainly b/c I saw that last post from let_be_real. I just wanted to tell you that my heart goes out to you & I believe in your heart. Maybe we will see each other again some day. also, I noticed voocitd ranting again about the jet setting guru... too bad. I thought we had an understanding here...as far as who I am well... I'd rather not reveal that here. I'm sure you could understand that. I've been in the TT for 12 years. Good night. Naba- I'm not much of a popcorn fan. I don't like those husks that you have to pick out of your teeth hours after. Pilgrum does have a good ole western draw to it, glad you like it. | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 31 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Hey Pilgrum. I thought I learned my lesson. I refined it to say "Flying around the world to set up new communities" that is not jet setting. And I have never heard anyone say he doesn't do that, because that is what an apostle is supposed to do isn't it? Also I don't think I ever called him a guru. Be fair. By the way, I hate that about popcorn too, but I can't resist to eat it anyway. Please come back. We are a grumpy group at times, but we really do love you. That is in the only way we are able to, not in a laying down your life to be trampled on kind of way. | ||
| lets_be_real New member Username: lets_be_real Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 71.98.157.3 |
Todah Pilgrum, That means alot to me. I hope so too. | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
OK Pilgrum, Pour me a mason jar fulla that hot common ground would ya? ! It looks as if ya got LBR yearning for the delusion... Pretty sneaky bud... Yes, I could have said the same thing "Why bother asking cuz he wont answer the questions anyway?" It could be you cant with a good conscience, or from fear of actually questioning his own answers". | ||
| pilgrum New member Username: pilgrum Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 72.74.18.92 |
ok fellas... let's not be so rash too much common ground goes to the waist  | ||
| fatherofaking New member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
some of the things i say may offend some folks. there is no intent on my part to offend, but it does happen. if what i say offends anyone please let me know. my desire is to make it right. i do not believe that any of us on this forum can say that there are no sincere in the TT. if we were to say such a thing we would then condemn ourselves. likewise, we cannot say we are without fault without blaspheming Christ. with this in mind, the question arises; what does it mean to serve Christ? does it mean being a member of the TT? what is the outward sign of the inward grace? it seems that former members of the TT still have an affinity for those that are members. even as strong as the one we have for our own family. it also seems that there are those that are still members that carry this same affinity for those that have left. i read of this in scripture often. Paul expresses this often, to the point of wishing himself accursed for the sake of others. what does this all mean? how can we be sure that we are following the same Christ? how can we be sure that we are not? is it doctrine? is it location? is it a certain group of people that say they are the only ones? there are many. what does it take to show that a person is giving their life to the body of Christ? in the past i thought it meant separating myself from mainstream Christianity, even though i knew that some of the people i was leaving behind were as sincere as i was in following Christ. because of this belief, after leaving the TT i nearly gave up on my desire to serve Christ. what is the criteria? it seems it is a great mystery to be an individual and to be a member of the body of Christ. for those that think they understand this mystery they are wiser than i. it seems it is a mystery that can only be understood by each individual. those that are sincere in their desire to serve will be lead to the place/places they need to be in order to serve in the way that God intends them to serve. a true servant will allow him/herself to be lead by the good shepherd, who is the Christ in us. this is the only yoke that i am able to bear. my desire to meet, greet, and even fellowship with the people of the TT is always there. it pains me to know that i am not allowed to do this. what is it that really separates us? is it not our own selfishness? there are many others that i have the same affinity for and yet am kept from fellowshipping with them as well. i am forced to choose and i cannot. i often find myself alone in my worship simply because i am forced to be separate. separation is an awful thing. i understand the need not to be yoked to those who show no desire to serve Christ. i will never understand the separation of those who do. do you pass the "litmus test." you be the judge. we can only rightly judge ourselves. 1 Jn. 3: 14-17 14 We are well aware that we have passed over from death to life because we love our brothers. Whoever does not love, remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you are well aware that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him. 16 This is the proof of love, that he laid down his life for us, and we too ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone is well-off in worldly possessions and sees his brother in need but closes his heart to him, how can the love of God be remaining in him? (Message edited by fatherofaking on January 09, 2008) | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
That did not offend me at all. I know how you feel. I do believe that Christ wanted us to have a "personal" relationship with him living in us. I also believe in the importance of fellowship with my brothers and sisters and the love and accountability that can come from that fellowship. I just don't believe that fellowship is in the TT where there is bondage, pride and a lack of personal freedoms. This is not a judgement on the people within the TT who I agree are sincere followers. I think they just chose the wrong leaders to follow. | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Foak! You are NOT separated! That IS the mystery of the "freedom of the cross"!!! The TT has made that wall, not us nor "God"! My heart also grieves that we have been "cut off" from the TT brothers. Is that the "heart and mind" of Messiah"? This is why most here are delighted to talk to one of them here!(and not a mouthpiece handing out freepapers for the "institution") There is but one true shepherd and you will know His voice! Pilgrum, Make sure thats goat milk cuz cows milk will kill ya! Well, thats at least what my German/Wisconsonite/dairy farming 96 year old grandfather told me! (well, thats half true, he never told me that and he did consume 100% whole dairy products till he passed on at the age of 96...) Also I believe we are to "Spread the gospel to the ends of the earth! And if all else fails, use words."! So Pilgrum. Will you kindly answer my earlier questions or skirt them like the rest of the current Tribe members tend to do? Is it that we are not worthy of the answers or do you think yourself lacking "grace" to address them properly? Or is there other reasons? Sincerely! Boca tov! | ||
| divineintervention New member Username: divineintervention Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.192.17.123 |
I agree voice. With all of my encounters with the TT I find it puzzling that more of their followers don't see it!? By "it" I mean the fact that they are following man and not GOD. I believe they are sincere in the sense that they all seem to have started off believing this was where God wanted them to be, and how He wanted them to live. But I also believe that at one point or another every single one of them have questioned the group as a whole and with good reason. Whether or not any of them were brave enough to voice their questions is a different story. And let us not forget those individuals whom have been born and raised within this "community", they are all human and it is human nature to question and even rebel at times. The sad fact is that many of these individuals do question this life style because they didn't choose it, and when they do regardless of age are often either bullied into submission or left to their own devices. How does this show a loving and forgiving example? Staying out of fear or braving it on your own? If they treat their own this way what does that show? Divine-interuption | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3123 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.52 |
There is but one true shepherd and you will know His voice! That voice, in all cases, turns out to be our own. It is our own voice that leads us to these parasitic organizations of broken and searching people looking for something that we can only find within ourselves. Yoneq, the Pope, L.Ron Hubbard, or any other religious figure, living or dead, is no more illuminated, blessed, anointed, or empowered than any one of us are at this very moment. If we will realize this and shrug off the enslaving need to "find it" somewhere else other than the only place "it" can be found the need for Yoneqs, Popes, and saviors will be revealed to be what it actually is, a yearning for the reality of true human experience, a hunger for something other than the world of illusion, delusion, and suffering. Let's not leap from one delusion to another. Anyone who sets himself up as being a mouth-piece for a god is highly suspect in my book for a great number of reasons, be that the Pope or someone else who has given themselves a new name and set themselves up as a special messenger of the almighty. FOR PETE'S SAKE PEOPLE!! (sorry, lost my composure there for a moment) Let the weeping and gnashing of teeth begin. | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
TO, I agree, I just had to write in a vernacular that others might understand. You hoe your own row... That still small voice is your own... Problem is, that people have to break from the indoctrination of their parents, teachers, clergy and authorities in order to truly think critically and act on those thoughts. Free yourself! The revolution will not be televised! | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Your values are neither right or wrong. They are simply judgements. Assessments,Decisions. For the most part, they are decisions made not by you, but by someone else. Your parents, perhaps. Your religion. Your teachers, historians, politicians. Very few of the value judgements you have incorporated into your truth are judgements you, yourself, have made based on your own experience. Yet experience is what you came here for, and out of your experience were you to create yourself. You have created yourself out of the experience of others. If there were such a thing as sin, this would be it: to allow yourself to become what you are because the experience of others. this is the "sin" you have committed. All of you. You do not await your own experience, you accept the experience of others as gospel (literally), and then, when you encounter the actual experience for the first time, you overlay what you think you already know to the encounter. If you did not do this, you might have a wholly different experience, one one that might render your original teacher or source wrong. In most cases, you dont want to make your parents, your schools, your religions, your traditions, your holy scriptures wrong, so you deny your own experience in favor of what you have been told to think! You have created this contradiction around God! Everything your heart experiences about God tells you that God is good! Everything your teachers teach you about God tells you God is bad. Your heart tells you that God is to be loved without fear. Your teachers tell you God is to be feared, for He is a vengeful God. You are to live in the fear of Gods wrath, they say. You are to tremble in His presence. Your whole life through, you are to fear the judgement of the Lord. For the Lord is "just" you are told. And God knows, you will be in trouble when you confront the terrible justice of the Lord. You are, therefore, to be "obedient" to Gods commands or else. Above all, you are not to ask such logical questions as, "if God wanted strict obedience to His Laws, why did He create the possibility of those Laws being violated?" Ah, your teachers tell you, because God wanted you to have "free choice." Yet what kind of choice is free when to choose one thing over the other the other brings condemnation? How is "free will" free when it is not your will, but someone elses, which must be done? Those who teach this would make God a hypocrite. You are told that God is forgiveness, and compassion, yet if you do not ask for forgiveness in the "right way," if you do not "come to God" properly, your plea will not be heard, your cry will go unheeded. Even this would not be so bad if there were only one proper way, but there are many proper ways being taught as there are teachers to teach them. Most of you, therefore, spend the bulk of your adult life searching for the "right" way to worship, to obey and to serve God. The irony of all this is that I believe that God does not want our worship, God does not need our obedience, and it is not necessary to serve Him! These behaviors are the behaviors historically demanded of their subjects by monarchs, usually egomaniacal, insecure, tyrannical monarchs at that. They're not Godly demands in any sense, and it seems remarkable that the world hasnt by now concluded that the demands are counterfeit, having nothing to do with the needs or desires of Diety. Diety has no needs. All That Is is exactly that: all that is. It therefore wants or lacks nothing, by definition. If you choose to believe in a God who somehow needs something, and He has such hurt feelings if He doesnt get it, that He punishes those from whom He expected to receive it, then you choose to believe in a God much smaller then He is. You are truly "Children of a Lesser God." | ||
| john_s Intermediate Member Username: john_s Post Number: 153 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 64.24.211.66 |
This is a perfect example of the "spirit" that infests Christianity and flows out like so much pus from its acolytes. The idea that the Son of God would communicate in this sort of mocking, bitter, sarcastic, "Daily Show" way. What a disgrace. Classic "love and respect" - Christian style. Voodoo wrote: --- “Welcome to the Twelve Tribes, please spend as much money as you can with us because we need to ensure our Prophet has enough money to expand our real estate holdings and fly around the world starting other communities where people like me can nearly starve to death and raise our children and beat them until they are black and blue. You are welcome to move in with us as long as you denounce all other religious loyalties and promise you will never leave, and be willing to submit unquestionably to our elders and supreme leader who is in fact the only conduit to God. Please leave your brain outside as you will no longer need (or be allowed) to think for yourself because our elders will think for you. But please bring your money, real estate, stocks and bonds and everything else with you so we can liquidate these and give the proceeds to our Apostle to spend as he sees fit. And we want you to have it your way so if your wife or husband does not want to join you/us, that’s ok. Abandon them because our Prophet Elijah says they are going to burn in the Lake of Fire anyway. Oh, and we have a no-money back guarantee. If you do choose to leave us, or we decide with little or no notice to kick you out, you will not get your money or any of your belongings back and you will drop dead because God will kill you. Have a nice day” --- | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 42 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Another 3rd world country heard from... Long time no see John! | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
I do not mean to offend anyone. But I am so saddened the majority of people who's lives were interrupted by Yoneq's delusion/deception end up choosing to reject not only Yoneq but God and His Word. I personally do not. I also do not buy into the philosophy that "God is within me" because simply put that means that "I am God". That to me is the real original temptation that leads to "sin". The serpent said this way back in the garden and has been selling it ever since. Actually it was this assertion that got him thrown out of heaven in the first place. And from that time until he gets a chain wrapped around his miserable slimy neck, he will continue to get as many people as he can to buy into this lie. Whenever I look at a "questionable" religious group and find out they teach their members can someday become gods, that confirms it for me. The serpent is actively at work and is bringing as many people down to the pit with him as he can. It is Yoneq who tought that God needs us, not the Word of God. God loves us and desires our worship. Yoneq and his kind love themselves and desire power and the praise of men. The serpent wants the same. They are trying to become gods on earth and they are delusional enough to believe they can become gods for eternity. It smells like smoke!!! | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
John - You made my point for me. Thank you. It does sound so ridiculous when stated honestly up front verses deceptionally overtime under a controlled environment where you can hug on them one moment, beat them down to a rubble the next and then tell them you are the only true body of Messiah. You also make my point every time you post on this site with your bitter angry attacks with nothing but a puffed up self righteous attitude to support them. Is this the spirit that resides and covers the Edah? Do you even have the "anointing" to be posting here? If so, by who's authority? Once again the attack on Christianity and yet Yoneq says there is nothing in Christianity that offends anyone. | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 43 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
John_S is not a Tribes member and I dont believe he ever was... He's kinda like a vulture. You dont see him too often but when he smells something putrid he will circle around and jump on it, chew a bit and then fly off after he's left a gift of guano... | ||
| fatherofaking New member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
VOOCITD, do you really believe that the story of the serpent speaking to eve is a literal historical event? if so, how do you come to that conclusion? | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
This one oughta open some eyes! http://www.angelfire.com/nv/TheOliveBranch/append19.html | ||
| fatherofaking New member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
maybe you could explain what that all just said naba. i think it said that there is an angel called satan that tempted eve rather than a serpent. is that correct? is this the thrust of the argument? "Have we not, in this, a clear intimation that it was not a snake, but a glorious shining being, apparently as angel, to whom Eve paid such great deference, acknowledging him as one who seemed to possess superior knowledge, and who was evidently a being of a superior (not of an inferior) order?" i find it difficult to read websites with black backgrounds. usually i just skip them or skim them quickly. my eyes are still suffering for trying to read that one. sorry. | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
You got the jist of it... Ah hah! I found a black and white! http://www.ovrlnd.com/Teaching/serpentofgen.html | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 41 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
My point is emphasized in the following sentence within that website: "Wherever the Word of God is called into question, there we see the trail of "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan". My point is whenever you hear a leader/deceiver tell you, "You will be like God!" it is straight from Satan, the deceiver and liar. | ||
| intransition Member Username: intransition Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2005 Posted From: 24.159.240.232 |
I smell popcorn I haven't been around for a while but, checking in, it's nice to hear new voices. My take on Yoneq is that he is sincere - just in denial like so many that are caught in the dysfunction. At the very least, the TT is filled with dysfunction without a open and honest way to deal with it. I hope you stick around Pilgrum, it's nice to hear a humble voice from the TT here. | ||
| fatherofaking New member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
i think we are going a bit off track on the subject matter here naba. i would be happy to continue the discussion but i think it would disrupt the flow of this thread if it were to continue here. suffice it to say that i disagree with the very first statement made on the page. i also would call into question the intent of bullinger's work. i am familiar with his work by the way. this website is not any easier reading but it is all i have. it is a very strange site that seems to change it's colors often. he has some very strange ideas. it is a big hit with the shepherds chapel folks, if that tells you anything. companion bible appendix index | ||
| fatherofaking New member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
My point is whenever you hear a leader/deceiver tell you, "You will be like God!" it is straight from Satan, the deceiver and liar. think of me what you will voocitd, but i think a good case can be made for us being gods. there is some scripture that seems to indicate that. that is not to say that i am defending all of what yoneq teaches. i would of course be one of his disciples if that were the case. | ||
| nabashalam Junior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Yes I know...Bullinger=bulloney! BTW Shepards Chapel and Arnold Murray was my first step back to Christianity during my struggle with addiction. It lead me too Promise Keepers where I got my first freepaper... I went from cult to cult to cult.... | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 43 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
To close this thread out, I offer the following conclusions: 1. All current TT members and TT sympathizers believe Yoneq is neither Deceitful nor Delusional, but a true follower of God who is genuine and speaks the very words he hears in his heart from the very mouth of of God. 2. Many Ex-members and non-sympathizers generally feel he is a humble sincere man who has lost his way and allowed pride to overcome his first love. 3. Some ex-members and non-sympathizers feel the same as (2) however that now due to his pride and a taste of power, has gone from a humble servant to a full fledge cult leader who actually believes what he is teaching strong enough to take whatever measures necessary to see it continue now and outlive him when he dies. If you have a different opinion, please feel free to share it. If you have not shared on this thread yet due to being shy or having a fear of reprisal or miscommunicating or some other reason and would like to vote on 1-3, feel free to do so. This way you can have your voice heard without having to defend yourself or face a barrage of accusations and questions. If no-one responds, I will assume the “horse is dead” and will kindly stop beating it. To any that I may have offended, I apologize and promise to work on refining my communications skills. Although I will never be perfect and therefore I am open to any constructive correction from anyone inside or outside the TT. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Voice, I do have a different opinion but it is a combination of your 3 and more.... 4. Yoneq is not deceitful but he is deluded. He believes he is a true follower of God who believes he hears the very words of God in his heart and speaks and writes them as such. He must follow the course he has created. Things have not gone as he truly wished but what has transpired to him must be the will of God and he must go forward. If he were to re-tract any teachings, any major directions, in his mind HE would be the one questioning Gods portion for him. He is locked in the same shackles of his mind, in the words of Frued his "super-ego", that he has applied to his followers. He has no choice, no recourse. The sad thing is that it is contagious and that his Tribal leaders have contracted, and will spread this illness long after he is gone. Unfortunately the damage to others will continue. Just one more stream of casualties from the religions of the world. | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Wow!! I change my vote to number 4 | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 56 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"Super-ego" | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 46 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Now you just raised another issue for me. Could it be the reason Yoneq does not want to "re-tract any of his teachings, any major directions" is because that would bring into question whether or not he speaks from God? How can you say, "Thus saith the Lord" and then say, "Oops, I got that one wrong". | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 58 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Nah, He CANT question or reason! He truly believes God speaks through him and like I said, if he questions it, he would be questioning God! Also theres nothing to tell him that he is wrong! He has to obey! Even if he does find something that tells him he was wrong, it will just be a test or a lesson from God for him. He MUST go forward. No retractions. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3124 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.5 |
Yoneq is not deceitful but he is deluded. He believes he is a true follower of God who believes he hears the very words of God in his heart and speaks and writes them as such. Just for clarities sake, I will say I am not now nor have ever been a T.T. person. I'm speaking from both a participation in mainstream churches as well as small pentecostal sects. I believe "deluded" and "deceitful" eventually converge in a person in a great number of cases. One may begin "deluded", whether this is a psychosis of some kind or simple mental confusion probably varies a good deal, but then it proceeds to "deceitful" as the delusion gives way to reality in their minds. In those who do not realize the truth (that they are source and not some outside supernatural agency) the delusion is fortified, encouraged, and nurtured by a false sense of righteousness that communicating with a "god" can bring. I guess I'm talking about my experience. I know that as the delusion dropped away from me I was certainly challenged to tell truth or continue mouthing the lie. I had to stop lying to myself and others for my own sanities sake. I wasn't under the pressure of being in a leadership position or having 100s of people depending on me and my "connection". | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
TO - Thanks being vulnerable and sharing your experience with us. I agree, If you take a look at the "Parable of a Twig" that I posted on another thread. The progression that I tried to describe went from: Sincere --> Indignent --> Prideful --> Deluded... What it does not describe are the next steps that very well could be: --> Deceived --> Decieving others. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and experiences on this. This very well could be the natural degression of a misguided leader and therfore would be seen in many different groups. | ||
| voocitd Junior Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
My TT roots are showing. I really should use the spell check more often: Indignent = Indignant Decieving = Deceiving Degression = Digression Therfore = Therefore Sorry | ||
| fatherofaking Junior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
Facing Up to Indoctrination and Self-deception in Religious Groups, New and Traditional Roderick Hindery excerpt: "Propaganda and self-delusion are equal opportunity maladies. Regardless of intellectual or economic class, the best defenses against religious and other indoctrinations and self-deceptions entail aggressive quests for logical coherence, honesty about one's assumptions, and fairness about listening to opposing viewpoints. There is nothing irreverent about subjecting religious proponents and prophets to the same common-sense tests, to which we subject philosophers, politicians, and other human beings. Otherwise, forgetting destructive crusades, tragic inquisitions, and religious dominations of the past, we continue to repeat their errors. Blinded by ideological and secretly self-serving rigor, we need to test all ideological or religious claims with the prophetic injunction: By their fruits you will know them: for example, violence, deception, intrusion, and lording it over others; as distinguished from peace-making, honesty, and respect for the freedom and equality of others. No religious tradition or sub-tradition is exempt from scrutiny through such criteria. Neither are other cultural movements, military, economic, political, ecological, health, or dietary. In a pluralistic world, there is room for many sets of ideals, if not ideologies. But in a fair, considerate, and liberated world, the overriding issue becomes: how are our specific human endeavors implemented practically and productively? How do our own religious or cultural views and practices affect our relationships with others-- coercively, with indoctrination, or with honesty, respectful interaction, and persuasion?" www.public.asu.edu | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 60 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"Being under the pressure of being in a leadership position or having 100s of people depending on me and my "connection". There lies the crux of the matter... | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3125 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.30 |
There lies the crux of the matter... Yes. The pressures must be immense. The ability to admit error and change your mind is pretty much nonexistent in these 'god-directed' leaderships. Just think of the kind of nonsense and trouble that situation could lead a group of people into and what it has done historically. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 57 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
1 Timothy 4:1-4 - "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received in thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 74 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Well Voice, the TT defends their diet with semantics. They say "All animals are not food!" We all know that the dietary directions in the Torah was for the health of the Hebrew nation. Pork couldnt be refrigerated properly and were fed garbage, and if not cooked properly tape worms and other yucky stuff could make you sick. Bottom feeders and filter feeders(crustaceans and bi-valves) were in that basket too. And not to mention all the "unclean animals". I cant say how they justify there controls on marriages... | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
They defend anything that spews (is that a word?) out of Yoneq's mouth. "For everything that God created is good and nothing is to be rejected..." and "eat whatever is put before you" So I guess Paul didn't know what he was talking about and Yoneq does. I hope Pilgrum has been reading Galations like you asked him to. I find that and 1Timothy are good books to digest and meditate on. Along with all the rest of course. | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 83 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.27 |
I have to admit I'm really sick of seeing these Yonech bashing posts. No one made us join the community, we wanted what they were selling. And the community is what it is not because of a 'Jim Jones' style of leader but because every adult there allows it to be that way. It's the result of consensus and going with the flow, of not taking personal responsibility but of abdicating that responsibility to a set of doctrines and then hoping for the best. | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 72.170.63.126 |
In which case, if God is wanting a 'people' then thats why He allows the Tribes to exist the way they are. He's waiting for those who are sincere to finally get sick of being told what to do and start listening to His voice. But in the meantime He's going to let them keep making bricks to their hearts content. | ||
| nabashalam Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Oh! I get it! A grist mill complete with threshing floor. But is it the flour that remains or leaves? | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 62 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
"It's the result of consensus and going with the flow, of not taking personal responsibility but of abdicating that responsibility to a set of doctrines and then hoping for the best." I certainly agree with that statement. But I would say it is also abdicating to a set of men who teach a set of doctrines. And you have to hold the leader of these men accountable. I do not hold the sheep accountable because I believe they were coerced to join and are kept captive by coercive measures. No one is holding a gun to their heads. However implying that God may kill them or they may turn homosexual and they will go to the Lake of Fire for rejecting the body of Messiah is coercive and controlling. Not to mention the fact they took "all" from you and you have "nothing" to support yourself and they made you alienate your friends and family so you have no one to turn to. And you may say I am bashing Yoneq, but I disagree. I am doing something that no-one within the community would dare to do including his elders, holding him accountable. Because he is the one who says "Thus saith the Lord". He is held to a higher standard. | ||
| fatherofaking Junior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
we shouldn't be "bashing" anyone. the institution of the TT should not however be above scrutiny. if religious institutions are left to do as they please, then they are also left to become a danger to society. i think it is possible to scrutinize an institution like the TT without "bashing" it's individuals. i do not think it is possible to make everyone happy regardless of what is said about any religious institution. it is the way it is. if there is going to be criticism from any side it should be done in a constructive manner. all sides are needed in discussions like this one. what is not needed is "bashing" of the "bashers". that kind of attitude will do nothing but end the discussion. a discussion that is obviously needed. no religious institution is insignificant when it involves the lives of individuals, no matter how few there are. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 63 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
First, I just want to thank the makers of this site for creating a space that we can openly discuss, share our hearts and minds, heal and grow. Everyone is welcome here when you want to reason and be loved without a boat load of conditional hurdles to overcome. There does seem to be a core group of folks that long for the "old days". If we are honest, we all do at one-time or another. And there are even those that seem willing to whole heartedly support Yoneq's teachings and the practices of the TT but do not, for whatever reason, want to make a committment to join the communities. There is a solution. It is called The Virtual Twelve Tribes!!! And the good news is, It already exists! No need for difficult start up issues. Point your browser to the following URL: http://www.twelvetribes.com/ And it is just like the real Twelve Tribes!!!..... If you have an opinion, you can't share it. That's because they don't allow any comments (reasoning). On the Virtual Twelve Tribes, you can spend endless hours reading Free Papers that tell you just how hopeless it is to be a part of the World and separated from the Body of Messiah (TT). Also you can be reminded just how corrupt the world and your current religion (whatever that may be) is. So if you need to be emersed in the annointing, but don't want to get anointed, spend a few minutes, hours, days, months in the Virtual Twelve Tribes. Here at FACTNET, you are never "cut-off" so you can always come back when you have had enough. WARNING: Loitering in the Virtual Twelve Tribes for an extensive amount of time without actually choosing to join the physical community can cause you to burn in the Lake of Fire. | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 85 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 66.82.9.61 |
Then let me explain fully. Whenever I read one of these threads that bash on a particular leader I get the feeling that it isn't from a desire for truth or awareness but that instead it's a form of jealous envy. A slam dance of character assassinations and asinine sarcasms thinly veiling a deep jealousy of those being mocked. A leader is only a leader because of the people who choose to follow him or her. You cannot hold someone accountable because the herd chose to follow them. Ultimately the responsibility rests on the individual and their decision to ignore their own capacity for critical thinking and sound judgment. The Bible says that Jesus came to the Earth and gave the Holy Spirit to Mankind so that we no longer need someone to tell us how to think, how to pray, what to wear and what to eat. The small still voice. So even with this clearly spelled out we still miss the point and then get mad when it turns out that, hey, the TwelveTribes is just another religion. Any group that proffers all the answers and promises to relieve an individual of the arduous task of having to think for themselves and actually discern the Voice of God inside themselves is going to produce the same predictable results we've seen over the last couple of thousand years. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 65 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Jody - I agree with almost everything you said. I agree that followers will be judged for the personal decisions they made. However, the standard is higher for leaders and those who teach the Word of God and even higher for those who say, "Thus saith the Lord". James 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. I am not bashing Yoneq. I am calling into question his teachings and holding him accountable for misleading so many people and destroying so many lives/marriages/children. Paul spoke against leaders even Peter publicly when he felt he was leading people astray. It is not wrong to speak against a false teacher. Yeshua called the Pharisees, "You brood of vipers". Was it wrong for him to "bash" the Pharisees? He wasn't bashing them. The Word of God is described as a Sword for a reason. I really appreciate your comments on this site and I perceive you to be a very sincere believer. So please do not take my words as an attack. It is so hard to communicate in text format. You can't really hear my heart. | ||
| fatherofaking Junior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
you are assuming that everyone is able to see for themselves the truth of a matter without the help of another. critical thinking and sound judgment are things that are learned not inherited. i know this because it took me most of my life to learn how to think critically and know what sound judgment is. i did not do that by myself. if these people were able to think for themselves they wouldn't get caught up in things like the TT in the first place. discussions like these are designed to help people see where they are lacking in these skills. at least that is the ideal. | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 86 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.16 |
Then I propose we buy a bus and travel around the country to Open Forums delivering this message. | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.16 |
Of course we'd have a responsibility to deliver it to all of Christianity and not just the TwelveTribes. | ||
| fatherofaking Junior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
actually jody i am pretty close to two communities and have considered going to these open forums. the reason i have not is simply because i have already made efforts to talk to TT folks about these things and have been cut off. literally. i have been told that they have nothing more to discuss with me. to think that i could walk into their territory and begin warning others of what i know about the TT would be quite foolish. i would simply be asked to leave and not return. i have seen it happen with others who have tried the same thing. that is not the way to do it. there are those in Ithica NY who are making some efforts to get the word out in other ways. when the TT folks go to places with there freepapers to recruit people, they are right there next to them warning people. if that is something you would want to do then i would say go for it. if you think that you should also do that with those involved in evangelism in the rest of christianity then go for it. i see nothing wrong with it. just be prepared. you are going to learn some hard lessons about what people are willing to do to protect their beliefs. just read the book of acts if you want a glimpse of what could happen. i have considered doing all of these things myself. what currently holds me back is that i am not yet done raising my son. after i know that he is ok, i may just buy me a bus! you are not talking to just anyone here jody. i live the things i speak. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 66 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
A major issue to consider here is one of the key purposes of this website, "Coercive Tactics". The Twelve Tribes and many Dangerous Coercive Controlling Groups use manipulative practices to take advantage of vulnerable people. Then they hold them captive using similar practices. It is too easy to judge the followers. There is a reason Yeshua used sheep to describe man. Because sheep are downright stupid animals. So he put us all in the same bucket there (and he wasn't bashing just describing  ). But he also stated in Matt 7:15-16: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" So he did want us to be self-thinking followers. So bottom line there is a fine-line to tread. Therefore, I personally look at both and ask myself who had the wrong intent, those who lead them astray or those who were lead astray? And I focus my attention on the leaders. This is not to say, "I am more right" than anyone else. Simply, this is my calling. Jody - I would love to pitch in on the bus! Who is good at fundraising? One very good thing the IOTTC has done was to create pamphlets to handout at TT events. Groups of people traveled to concerts etc. and handed these out. Unless you were being sarcastic, I think it is a great idea (even if you were being sarcastic). That is the sole purpose I spend so much time on-line saying what I am saying. It is a calling for me to inform/educate/warn people about this group. I have to stay focused, this is the group that has directly impacted my life and the lives of my family members. | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 67 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
FOAK - We must have posted at the same time. I am with you. Let me know when you want to start kicking some tires and planning a road trip. I am in! | ||
| fatherofaking Junior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
when one becomes obedient to death the truth will be spoken with out fear. we should speak not because we want to teach the truth, but because we know the truth. the desire to teach is just another distraction. there can be no attachments, no desires, no concern for what happens once the seeds are sown. once you know the truth you are then compelled to speak. then the truth does the teaching, not us. it is only then that it will have it's full effect. | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 88 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 66.82.9.77 |
No, I'm not being sarcastic. It seems like the obvious next step. I wouldn't oppose their evangelical efforts but just attend their Open Forums and perhaps host others as well. Real open forums, open dialogs as they are supposed to be. If we are wrong we can be proven wrong. "you are assuming that everyone is able to see for themselves the truth of a matter without the help of another. critical thinking and sound judgment are things that are learned not inherited." "Paul spoke against leaders even Peter publicly when he felt he was leading people astray." Both of these are valid statements and sum up the issue. We can create a nonprofit and purchase a bus, raise funds and then travel the country engaging in free speech. In an open dialog on faith, religion, dogma, critical thinking, and anything else we or anyone else wants to talk about. Human freedom. | ||
| fatherofaking Junior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
as i said in my earlier post jody, i am not yet ready to make the kind of commitment that you speak of. my commitment right now is to my son. he needs his father. i am all he has. when he no longer needs me to survive my commitment will be done. that commitment is open ended, as it should be. when he is able to survive on his own then he will be able to understand and support what ever decision i make. he probably already knows what to expect. we are very close. we know each other well. | ||
| ully_exderushah Member Username: ully_exderushah Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.98.168.78 |
Now you just raised another issue for me. Could it be the reason Yoneq does not want to "re-tract any of his teachings, any major directions" is because that would bring into question whether or not he speaks from God? How can you say, "Thus saith the Lord" and then say, "Oops, I got that one wrong". Well, in the Twelve Tribes that happens all the time, doesn't it? I just can't make up my mind whether to find it really ridiculous or really respectable. (I guess that depends on the case.) Just think about the many occasions where the Brothers and Sisters (i.e. "the Body", i.e. Yahshua, i.e. The Holy Spirit, i.e. God) gave a resounding "AMEN!" to someone's cry for baptism - and some time later, when trouble arose, it was judged that that person only got wet in the waters instead of saved. For many years I have asked myself: "Hm, I thought this is the Holy Spirit speaking through the Brothers and Sisters. So, did He make a mistake, then? Or did the Brothers not hear Him? Or misunderstand Him?" Looking at how many people have left and later someone said "No, he never got saved, he didn't receive the Holy Spirit", one has to wonder whether a) the Holy Spirit is not speaking to the Edah, or b) they are not listening, or c) they do not understand - either at the baptism or later when they turn around and say "No, he was never one of us." Ugh. Or perhaps d) Yahshua's Body / the Holy Spirit / God was deceived? Or maybe e) it was God's plan all along that these people would be baptized and later declared unbelievers? Double Ugh! Another example is the re-renaming of some of the Brothers and Sisters. I mean, first they proclaim: "THIS is your T-R-U-E name. This is the name by which God has known you since the beginning of time." And then, when something happens, they CHANGE it again!!! I know of one person whose name was changed FIVE TIMES! How do they explain THAT? Or think about the TT youth: During my TT days it was clear that a youth would only get baptized when (or rather, if) he or she credibly expressed the need for salvation. SOMETIMES that happened right after someone else's baptism. If the parents had a good relationship with their child, they even knew beforehand that their child was "coming closer to the door". But it was NEVER something that was PLANNED ahead! And nowadays? Nowadays they have Bar/Bat Mitzvah. They set a date when all the youth in one clan that are of a certain age will be baptized. Just think about it, scheduled mass baptisms, basically! (to be continued) | ||
| ully_exderushah Member Username: ully_exderushah Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.98.168.78 |
(continued from above) Or, if you think that those are not "major" direction changes, take the headcoverings: When I was baptized (which, BTW, now would be called "immersed"), the headcovering teachings basically said: "Wear your headcovering ALL THE TIME." Period. Fine, fair enough. After all, we didn't want the men, the outsiders and especially not the angels to wonder whether we were in submission or not! Well, one day a delegation of Brothers and Sisters came over from Judah. When they arrived at Tabitha's Place and got off the bus, NONE of the women wore a headcovering! You should have seen the look of sheer horror on our faces: WE thought in all earnest that something really, really dreadful must have happened during the trip so that all the women were in rebellion and not covered. Some of our older Sisters carefully asked about it, and our guests just laughed and told us "Oh, no, everything is fine. We just had some more teachings. Our Father has given us some new revelation: We have really been under the law about it and it is absolutely not necessary to wear the headcovering all the time, all day long. Most women now wear it only during the gatherings, for prayer, and during the Friday night celebration." Huh? Sorry this post is getting so long, originally I just wanted to throw in a little comment... actually this is probably stuff for a whole new thread: "TT now & then. What has changed and how do they explain it." I still have lots of other examples! And every time it's basically a matter of "Thus saith the Lord" and then later "Ah well, now He says something different." As I said earlier, I have wondered about those changes of direction for many years. And for a long time I felt that it demonstrated clearly that such things were not from God, but man-made. And many nights I was dreaming that one day someone would stand up in the market square and shout "What has happened here? 20 years ago many things were so different! Look how much everything has changed! The Twelve Tribes have lost their credibility; they have become an institution, a stale church!" And the Brothers and Sisters would actually LISTEN and think about it and return to their old standards. And many ex-members would return to the Body... However, nowadays when I think about it, I often come to the conclusion that in some cases it is a really GOOD thing that the Twelve Tribes were able to let go of their old standards. I guess I should just try not to JUDGE whether their decisions are right or wrong. Because I can't! Sure, I have OPINIONS about the directions they are taking, I can easily say whether I personally like them or not, and why. But heck, I have seen in my own life that I now approve of things that I disapproved of 10 years ago, and vice versa. So: I'm in NO position to say whether the Twelve Tribes really ARE screwing up or not with their direction changes. I leave that up to God. (If there is a God.) I just wish them lots and lots of grace and discernment to see when, and when not, it was or is good to say: "We have been going in the wrong direction. We will stop here, turn around and go that other path." Ully | ||
| thesaunterer New member Username: thesaunterer Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 67.112.107.1 |
Simply put: Delusional. A person can be totally, sincere, dedicated, and believe they are doing the will of God, believe they are filled with the Holy Spirit, and be in... Delusion. [History proves this; there have been many cases of harm through delusion, with the best intentions.] | ||
| voocitd Member Username: voocitd Post Number: 85 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 98.193.216.235 |
Ully - I am glad you posted. I would like to talk to you (at least in email since you really don't know me). Can you email me at VOOCITD@comcast.net? I created a website and have added links to your video testimonies. I am looking for brave people like yourself who are willing to write articles discussing things like what you just wrote? Email me so we can talk off line. www.yattt.blogspot.com | ||
| ully_exderushah Member Username: ully_exderushah Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 66.98.168.78 |
Voice, Feel free to contact me at ully_exderushah@arcor.de |
