| Author | Message | ||
     charger Junior Member Username: charger Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
I have been reading over some old posts where people left for "holiness" reasons. What about Pastor preaching that cosmetic nails were compromise? How about the policy that cosmetic nails ARE NOW OK, but clear nail polish NO. Who made that up? WHAT CHANGED? I was told that your wife wears cosmetic nails because her nails are weak or something. So why not use a clear nail hardener? How is it that a woman can wear two or three rings and that is Ok but if a woman wears a necklace or a bracelet that is considered a violation of policy, rebelion, and SIN. Should I stick around and give my life to this only to be told down the road that it is a violation of policy for a preacher to lets say own more than one car, uless they are on the general board. If you can make up the policies, anything could happen. Who makes up the policies? Who decides? What about make-up, that is an issue for which a woman will split hell wide open. Does this include Sis. Johnson. It has been shared that she wear make up to cover up the condition that she has? CAN ANYONE ANSWER THIS?? How about the latest trumpet that has the article about in defense of holiness. Why is there no Author? It says nothing? Why not just come clean, lay everything out there and let people decide? ANY ANSWERS, ANYONE WILLING TO GIVE IT A TRY | ||
| clearwater Junior Member Username: clearwater Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.183.231.124 |
Sorry, can't help you charger! I have more questions than answers myself. I am actually sitting here laughing at the irony of it all. Add this to your list: It is a compromise for a women to dye her hair (she nor her husband, if married, does not want her to look 50 when she may only be 35) but a wig or a hair piece is not compromise!!! | ||
| tracypelfrey Junior Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 69.208.9.2 |
Hey Charger: It is beyond just "cosmetic" nails...FAKE nails is what they are. But, she wears fake nails with a FRENCH MANICURE. She did when we left Graham for Virginia...which was in June of 2005. I think I've shared this before on this forum, but I found it odd that when we got togethter with bro and sis Moss at their house for fellowship...I think a night or two before we left...the Kekels came over also. I found it very distracting that Tanya kept holding out her nails on the hand in which she recently acquired a huge ring...and she kept staring at her hand. I wasn't sure if it was a combination of the nails and the ring in tandem...or whether she was looking at the sparkle of the ring...or just the nice nail job...but it was something which was almost embarrassing...in that...I didn't want to be caught looking at her looking at her hand...but she kept doing it ( I think not realizing how much she was doing it)...and one couldn't help but notice. This type of vanity was always...and I mean...ALWAYS preached and taught against as just that...VANITY...so...what or who changed? Do you mean to tell me that when Davis prays to God...God talks to him about such issues as what the LATEST is on fake nails...and that He goes so far as to care whether women are wearing clear nail polish or opaque? I think not. When there are lost souls and hurting souls and persecuted Christians scattered throughout the globe...breaking the Lord's heart...do you mean to tell us that God, the Father cares one lick about ladies nails? He doesn't. And I think it is insulting to God to put Him in such a role...as some fickle woman changing His mind all the time about length of skirts, and high heels and red dresses and red shoes and nails and whether a woman has a perm in her hair or not...etc... Jesus cares about the weightier matters...you know...the unchanging cares of the universe...such as Salvation and Love and Mercy and Longsuffering and Forgiveness and Tenderness and the Poor and the Widow and the Fatherless. As far as wigs and hair pieces...that is an issue which women in NTCC wonder about also. For example...when I was having trouble with my hair falling out and thinning (probably due to the high stress levels of living in a Cult)...Tanya suggested that I go with her to get a wig. After all...her mom has one...as is known by everyone. AS we were searching for something which looked most like my hair...she admonished me to find something which looked most like my hair length. Well, I don't know about the rest of the women out there...but my hair had stopped being "one length" a long time ago. I had not cut my hair since J. Ashmore preached and taught in the Philippines my first night that Hell would be my home if I did such things. TO BE CONTINUED... | ||
| tracypelfrey Junior Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 69.208.9.2 |
Consequently...it had been over 12 years...at the time of my wig purchase...since my hair had been cut. It had been permed and curled with an iron and hot rollers and sprayed to death...and it was almost as many different lengths as strands of hair. So, I thought...what is the actual length of my hair? I always had it put up in a clip because I could not leave it down...it was a hideous mess. We settled on something, but all along...I wondered...about the whole wig thing...because the wig which met her approval was quite short...I mean most of my hair went well down my back. But, here I was with something which was just at my shoulders. I related before how that V. Davis came to church in the little chapel one time...back in the days when we were in Bible College and the church doors were not open to the 'public'. This would have been some time before 1994. Her real hair was thin and went well down her back...and so her wig is not a real representation either. So the question must then be posed: if a woman wears a wig which is much shorter than her real hair...should it be considered cut? It's a silly question...but those in NTCC make it a silly question by making the admonishment to find a wig which doesn't look like you've cut your hair, and yet...I was encouraged to buy one which was much shorter than my actual hair!! What's up with that??? All of these changes come about in NTCC...whether the issue is fake nails or DVD's or any other of a host of things...because these commandments COME FROM A MAN... not from God!! What would you think of God should He be so cruel to send you to Hell one year for having fake nails and for having DVD's, etc...and then He turns around and waves the "IT'S O.K. NOW" FLAG? Fortunately for us...these are not His commandments and He does not change His mind as often as some change their socks...and He does not and never did condemn you to burn in Hell for these things. But, He will have something to say about those who impose such burdens on His children. Throw off the yoke of bondage and flee NTCC...as I got the good word last night from someone that another preacher and his family have done. NTCC is sure putting out a lot of money to fly preachers in to cities to take over for those leaving...maybe that is where all the Fellowship Offerings are going. Tracy | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 74.50.202.54 |
Hey Charger, Could you do me a huge favor and scan/email that article to me at ntcctruth@yahoo.com ? Thanks very much! Marc Perez | ||
| charger Junior Member Username: charger Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
Marc I seem to be having a problem scanning this article. I will try later, maybe even go so far as to type the thing out. Let me just share my favorite paragrapgh word for word. Can inward and outward holiness be separated? Why would an inwardly holy person attack outward holiness? As we have seen, our outward walk reflects our inward disposition. Further, a Chrisitan may use these outward indicators to judge the spiritual condition of another. I John 3, "he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." "He that sinneth is of the devil" John said, clearly indicating that God wants you to know who is of God and who isn't, by watching their life (the outward) therby trying (testing) the spirits, whether they are of God. In I Cor. 2:15, Paul said, "he that is spiritual judgeth all things," showing us that we are not to be judgemental, as the Corinthians had been, but able to exercise proper judgement, seeing we have "the mind of Christ." It is natural for anyone to resent being 'judged', (i.e. their actions scrutinized) but God wants us to know who is who. The Holy Ghost also augments one's judgement (I cor 2:14-16). God gives us these tools that we might know where others stand. James said the proof of a man's faith is his works (2:17-26). Note: I did not make a typo when I wrote "showing us that we are NOT to judgemental." That is the way it is written in the article. My comments will follow. | ||
| charger Junior Member Username: charger Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
1. What is outward holiness? I ask this because this article does not tell us. We all know what is implied, but please spell it out and make it clear. Is it knee length skirts, with the exception of denim ofcourse, because all denim skirts are wrong. 2. Is it cosmetic nails, short wigs, shorter permed hair, no make-up unless you have a skin condition. Is it acceptable for a woman to wear a cover-up make-up in the org if they have a zit or something? I ask that sincerly. I was always told and lead to believe that ALL make-up, even powders were a sin for which a woman would split hell wide open. SO #1 WHAT IS OUTWARD HOLINESS NTCC? 2. The article states that we may use these outward indicators to judge the spiritual condition of another, clearly indicating who is of God and who isn't, by watching their life. He also said by this we would know who is born of God. UMM, I can see that to some degree. We all judge people. When I see a person on drugs, living in fornication, adultery, homosexuality, etc. I am spiritual enough to know that what they need is a reality in Jesus Christ. Let me add to that, that I do not condemn them, I love them and care for them and desire that they would be saved. However, the Bible that I read, KJV, tells me that "By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one towards another." I thought it was love that was the key, not how I dress. OOPS silly me. 3. How about showing us that we are NOT to be judgemental. This is absolutely teaching that we are to be extremely judgemental of others based primarily upon how they look. The Pharisees had the right look, and Jesus called them a bunch of hypocrites. They were concerned only for the otward, Jesus said get the inside clean and the outside will become clean. That means that we need to focus on getting people to God and then allow God to deal with their outward nature. Do not get me wrong Lasciviousness is a sin, wether it is pants, skirts, shorts, make-up nails, etc. Upon further reflection of this article it seems to me, that this quote of "he that is spiritual judgeth all things," is a way of letting everyone know that RWD, MCK, JHO, being spiritual can judge all things and decide what is acceptable as policy and what is sinful as doctrine. Cosmetic nails, judged acceptable by policy. Nail hardener, judged sinful by policy (Thefore making it doctrine, or teaching.) Also when it comes to the nails, the hair, the make-up, it is so easy to change the language to make things look more acceptable. Tracy wrote Cosmetic nails. I have said this too, and even asked when a woman goes to the Wal-mart, which all good NTCCers do because they have a wal-mart mentality, where do they buy their nails. Are they in Hardware, sporting goods, or cosmetics? I could go on and on, it is enough to make me want to scream in utter frustration over the lack of a clear cohesive teaching. I imagine that everyone that has ever left has asked themselves or someone the following. NTCC sets itself appart from all other churches by its doctrines of holiness. Yet these are never taught in a clear fashion in the Seminary or clearly expressed in the Doctrinal statement. Why? I say that knowing that No one from the Org can or will answer it. | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1006 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.70.134 |
Charger, The key is pastoral authority. Davis will tell you as much when cornered. Having no solid ground on which to base his doctrines, he chooses to believe that "God gave you a pastor to tell you what sin is." Unchanging, written rules would take away his personal prerogative of making rules as he goes along. Many of us believe that he is basically a narcissist, and that all of these doctrines are a cloak for his desire to base Christianity on his own opinions. | ||
| granite Intermediate Member Username: granite Post Number: 233 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 72.24.207.240 |
More questions: 1. If bracelets are sin, does a bracelet cease to be a bracelet when a timepiece gets attached to it? 2. If rings are OK, how about an 'ear-ring'?? Can you condemn it in the ear and then wear it on your hands?? | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1008 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.83.121 |
I think it would be funny if a woman went to church wearing an ostentatious necklace that plunged deep into her cleavage, and then occassionally lifted it out to check the time on the old-fashioned pocket watch dangling from the chain. Hey, it's a watch! | ||
| charger Junior Member Username: charger Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
I asked this question knowing full well that I would not get a response from anyone in the ORG. They will not answer these questions on this site, their site, the trumpet, seminary, church, or confrance. I will answer my own question. ROMANS 14. That is the answer. I know that the Pharasiees, Saducees, and ntccees don't like that answer. I think NTCC took out its organizational pocket knife and cut that whole chapter out. What about I peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on apparel. The company policy is that this verse is a prohabition of all jewlery (except for rings now) This is also a verse used to teach not to color or dye ones hair, perms are ok of course. Well this says putting on of apparel. I Just told my wife she has to quite wearing apperal now. Naked came she into the world, naked she shall live in the world and naked she shall leave this world. We all know when it comes to the apparel part it is not a prohibition against clothes, it speaks of dressing descently and in order. | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1010 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.77.151 |
You're allowed to wear clothing, you just can't put it on. | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 208.79.15.2 |
Don't worry the great answer from the sky is coming with an authentic Greg S. stamp on it. This will be the answer to all mankind. Questions and concern as to the answer will not be accepted. You will recieve this answer and like it. If you think it has holes, it doesn't just ask Greg S. and he will tell you. BDH | ||
| dtaylor New member Username: dtaylor Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.197.255.52 |
WHAT CHANGED? I have been reading many of the posts for some time now. That question really has bothered me...What Changed? Should we not be asking ourselves not What Changed, but rather who has changed? As I was taught while in Bible school, we need to look to the leaders. There lies the change! | ||
| charger Junior Member Username: charger Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
So true dtaylor. Certain leaders within the org have started this snow ball effect of change. For years we were all lead to believe that all of these issues that we have, and have voiced very clearly to various "MOG" were matters of heaven and hell. Now we hear that this is what we signed up for. No it is not. You are 100% correct that it is various leaders within the Org. that started the change. MCK does not like being labled as some instrument of change. Well how did people get that impression in the first place? I think it is because he has stood up for himself and his family, like so many of us are doing by leaving. IT WAS TAUGHT AND PREACHED CONSISTANTLY IN THE SERVICEMENS WORKS WHERE I STARTED ATTENDING THAT THESE ISSUES WHICH ARE NOW BEING SAID TO BE POLICY AND NOT SIN WOULD DAMN A SOUL TO HELL. There was even a time when I believed that saved members of my family were not Christians because they did not practice the "policies" of this church. I recently sent a blanket letter to the | ||
| dtaylor New member Username: dtaylor Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.197.255.52 |
Charger, I have struggled with alot of what I was taught because at one time I strongly believed that way. Since finding out that many things that once were out and out rebellion are now ok'd by none other than the leaders themselves. I have to question whether if what I was taught all those years was actually necessary. What else will be ok'd this year? Why will it be ok, because certain leaders are doing those things? Is that why it is ok now? Diana | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.37 |
dtaylor, It is so good to potentially have found a way to make contact with you and your husband. I was in your church almost 25 years ago and have very fond memories of, and a great degree of respect for you and your husband. Do you have an email address to be contacted at outside of factnet? The last time that we talked was about five years ago. It would be great to talk to you and your husband once again. With much love. | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1022 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.201.73 |
One way in which Davis and others have tried to give themselves a way out of this conflicting comparison of doctrine to "ministerial policy" is the Example Approach. In the Example Approach, you mandate the specifics of ministers' lives, then 'preach' to the congregation that they must... a) conform to the Bible... b) As Taught By The Pastor... c) follow the pastor's Example in all things This sometimes provides the leeway and plausible deniability to say, when confronted with a mass exodus as they now are, "We never said that was for everybody. We have to have ministerial standards, but you don't necessarily preach that to your congregation every Sunday..." Sounds so reasonable that way. Yet how many times, as a church member, were you confronted with the expectation that you should "do it the way you see me doing it", or else you understood clearly that you would be in "rebellion"? | ||
| charger Junior Member Username: charger Post Number: 46 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
I came to another realization today. When I was a church member in a servicemens work, I would sometimes ask questions for which I received vauge or evassive answers. Somehow I came to the conclussion that I would get the answers in Bible college. Kind of like maybe that stuff is to deep and spiritual for a member like me, when I get to Bible college than I will be taught in detail like my pastor was. Then when you get to Bible college if you asked a question you were given the look, and possibly heard something along the lines of, "Where did you come from, didn't your pastor teach you anything." Then you felt like you had better just shut up and pretend like you know what they know lest you look stupid, and make your former pastor look stupid and maybe even get him in trouble. | ||
| dtaylor New member Username: dtaylor Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.197.255.52 |
Chief, Email me at gracemurc4u@yahoo.com. That goes for anyone else that I know. I look forward to hearing from you. Diana | ||
| dtaylor New member Username: dtaylor Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.197.255.52 |
Chief, Email me at gracemurc4u@yahoo.com. That goes for anyone else that I know. I look forward to hearing from you. Diana | ||
| dtaylor New member Username: dtaylor Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.197.255.52 |
Sorry for the double posts. | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.37 |
dtaylor, the email has already been sent. This is outstanding. Please call me for I can't wait to talk. | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.36 |
Diana, it was so great to talk to you. I am without words but I will do my best. I could have talked for hours; well I guess we did. Take care and we will be in touch. The NTCC really dropped the ball when they ran you and your husband off. You showed love and not this fake rehearsed stuff such as I quote “I really appreciate you” and never show it in tangible actions or; “ I missed you in church” which is the only time some ever call you; EVER. That kind of conduct has been seen to often in the NTCC and not by everyone by any measure, but by too many. A complete lack of WISDOM and a fool can see right through it when the only time they are called is when they miss church. How could so many with so much Military leadership experience routinely make the same blunder? He that wins souls is wise. You guys meant so much, to so many CHRISTIANS and always will. We will never forget your totally unselfish labors of love. In your church we had fun. The last time I checked that is not a sin. Your husband was one of the hardest guys that I knew but he was a good leader and fun. That is why there was unity and so many brothers and sisters wanted to go off and serve GOD. It was real. I will speak for virtually everyone that I know, that ever knew you in the NTCC. I guarantee that we love you and that is real and I am not trying to be eloquent. We love you guys!!!!!!! (Message edited by chief on January 09, 2008) | ||
| dtaylor New member Username: dtaylor Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 71.197.255.52 |
Chief, Thank you for having the courage to post on here. I have been wanting to post for some time and connect with many that post on Factnet. Tonight it did my heart good to find others that have been looking for us. It does my heart good to know that you all are still serving God...by this I mean that you did not make man your God, so therefore you salvation is not gone when the man fails God. As for NTCC running us off...they did no such thing. We left on our own, because we did not agree with what was going on. Remember this Chief, all those that we have ever come in contact with, whether they were reached by other ministers or under our ministry. We have always loved you all. We will continue to stay in contact... | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.38 |
If there are any Pastors in the NTCC out there that read these messages please consider. Don't call a church member the very same day if they don't show up for church and tell them that you missed them in church. Do you have any idea how unwise that is? You think that shows concern? To an idiot maybe. They know that they missed church because you tell them every single Sunday morning that you have Sunday evening service etc. Go by their residence maybe a few days or even a week later and don't even bring up church and just talk for about an hour or more about everything but church. Get to know them and genuinely be friends. Stop bombarding people the very first time they show up to your church during alter call drilling them with questions such as, "If you die do you know where you will spend eternity"? Do you have any idea how unwise that is, do you? You spend all that time soul winning just to run them off for good after their very first service during alter call. For every one that works with you run off a hundred. I can't understand how so many preachers can be so thoroughly and completely unwise. Let GOD deal with there hearts after the preaching. Do you have any idea how uncomfortable that makes the average newcomer feel? You are wasting your time soul winning. You wonder why your church is not growing? It’s because you completely lack wisdom. That’s right it is you. I am not calling names I am stating facts. He that winneth souls is wise. If you are not winning souls you are totally unwise, PASTOR. Don't blame it on your church members, it is YOU! How do I make these statements so definitively? Because I have been associated with the NTCC for almost 25years. I am not by any measure directing this to any one Pastor. It is a systemic problem. Thank you for hopefully listening which because of my past experiences I doubt happened. Because you are too proud to admit that it is you that is at fault concerning why your church isn't growing with folks that really want to serve God. Many of you mean well but you just simply lack wisdom and in the process you are destroying thousands of souls which will find it even harder the next time to come to Christ because of the example that you set. | ||
| quest4truth New member Username: quest4truth Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.206.245.89 |
Diana, thank you so much for talking to me on the phone. and I am encouraged now to post here. Here is what I have been planning to post for so long, but have been afraid to until now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To begin with, I have been a with NTCC for about 12 years now attending as a member along with my husband. However I no longer feel emotionally or spiritually part of NTCC. I have been questioning and searching issues on a lot of the outward appearances that nttc teaches. In my search, I stumbled upon postings about NTCC,ex members, and their stories for leaving NTCC. Before I continue on, I will admit I have not been faithfully attending every service through the week, for about the last 2 years or so. It's not that I have not turn from God or wanting to sin, its more personal circumstances at home. When I do attend, it is mostly on Sunday Mornings. For a while I felt guilty for missing so many services, maybe from hearing the phrase, "Do not forsake the assembly of ourselves...I would tell myself that I will make sure I prepare myself and get ready to go to church the next time. Only the next time comes and I do not go to church. As a Christian I know and believe that it is the right thing to attend and be a contributing part of church, however I honestly do not believe, I am more of a Christian or less of a Christian if I attend all services or If I miss them. Before discovering factnet and info on NTCC, I have never dwelt on the idea of totally stopping from going to NTCC, but working on attending more services instead. However, during the past summer, after reading many stories and comments, I have become emotionally sad over ex members stories, My attitude is, how can so many people be hurt by leaders of an organization that claim to be so holy. I have always thought of NTCC as a wonderful organization that preached the whole gospel truth and was desirous of souls being saved. But what I read over at factnet, I get a total different impression. To Be Continued.... Helen Huett | ||
| quest4truth New member Username: quest4truth Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.206.245.89 |
Maybe I am wrong, or I am prejudging, but I no longer have respect for the leaders of NTCC and of the organization itself. As to why I still attend NTCC, it is because my husband goes, and at least right now, he as no intention of finding another church. When I go to church, I will be honest with you, I am bored there and I feel out of place. I look forward to alter call time, Since I have discovered negative information about NTCC here at factnet, I now have several questions and concerns. My biggest concern is, should I stay in NTCC because my husband goes, or quit and find another church to attend. And as far as my other questions and concerns are, I have expressed many of them to my husband. I would also like to express them to our pastor, but I will not, because I believe with all my heart, if I say or ask something, I know that my concerns and questions will only backfire on me. at first I was in limbo, as to whether I should stay in ntttc or leave, but now I am leaning to finding another church, even though my husband may still attend nttcc. Actually, for a long time now, It has been on my heart and mind to find another church to be part of. One where I can grow in the lord, and one with no strings attached. I would appreciate everyone's prayers. Love In Christ, Helen Huett | ||
| weezer Junior Member Username: weezer Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.0.37.177 |
don't get so focused on "i must find a church". Salvation / your relationship with Jesus IS NOT based upon church attendance. If you have a right relationship with Jesus, you could go to a boring church, a not right church, a crazy church, either way, God will be there with you and you'll most likely receive a blessing from God. many say in ntcc, they can't be wrong i feel Gods presence. What about when you feel Gods presence and you're at work ? Does that make work a spiritual place ? Jesus said that it's not the place that you worship God. God is a Spirit and and He seeks those to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. (paraphrasing a verse) just focus on getting to Jesus and everything else will take care of itself. No church or person has a lock on the gospel nor do they hold the keys to heaven and hell. | ||
| chief New member Username: chief Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 75.104.192.39 |
Diana, respectfully, when I used the phrase, "Ran you off", I was referring as such. When one does not do exactly and explicitly what someone asks them to, regardless of how reasonable or unreasonable the directive may be, and the person giving the directive determines that your life will be made miserable and your stay intolerable unless you conform and as a result you leave; that is my definition of being, “Ran off’. This is also a regular practice in the NTCC. From a military professional standpoint this is what is called insecure leadership, when one can not cope with their decisions being questioned or will not even consider someone’s suggestion if that someone happens to be beneath them by virtue of position. This is a tremendous problem in the NTCC and I believe that God has allowed Pastors to fail regularly because they will not even consider anyone’s advice other than Pastor Davis or Olson respectively and respectfully because I do have respect for both men. You know what I am saying Diana and I do understand your point concerning you having left on your own. Imagine if Moses would not have considered his Father-in-law or Balaam the donkey. Balaam didn’t consider the donkey and look what happened. The leadership wouldn’t and won’t consider advice and that is why the NTCC is breaking and has broken in two. I have loved the NTCC and I just wish someone would humble themselves and listen. | ||
| tracypelfrey Junior Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.6.33 |
Helen, Thnak you for posting your most inner feelings. When I first posted out here on Factnet after leaving NTCC, my mind went back to the first time I climbed the slippery steps up the 15-foot diving board at the community pool in the town I grew up in. It was a big deal for me then because I was afraid of heights...espcecially slippery heights...and when I got to the top...I just stood there...dripping wet from the pool...looking out over the horizon...not wanting to allow the fear that was gripping me to cause me to back down the steps. I felt as if all sound was turned off, except for my heavy breathing. The diving board was very "springy", and that added to further fears that I would fall off the side of the board and go *splat* on the concrete before ever getting to the end of the board to complete my dive. It seemed like it all took a long time...but before I knew it...I was in the pool...and swimming for the ladder...to get out...AND DO IT AGAIN! It was exhilarating. It was cool! And with each dive I completed after that I gained composure ande confidence and my form got less sloppy...and...hopefully you get the point. I think it takes a lot to post out here on Factnet...using your own name...whether in NTCC or out. I have a great respect for those who are not intimidated to just let us know who they are. At the same time, there are many circumstances where it would be foolish for the person posting to admit to their name...it would hurt a spouse or a sibling or a parent, etc. It is therapueutic to post here...and to read the threads also. It allows another point of view to enter the brain and to be processed accordingly. I hope Helen...that if you do attend another church that your husband will not allow others to fill his mind with the idea that it is o.k. to leave you because in NTCC's mind...you have left God. This scenario has been played out for decades in this group. But, considering the amount of time you've BEEN AROUND...I believe that you know that already and have taken it into consideration. There are many men and women right now...who are staying IN NTCC ONLY BECAUSE...they have a daughter that married a preacher and the daughter (under the direction of the leadership of NTCC)...was "dissing" her mother...(a great Christian virtue...right?)...(and fully supported by the Bible...NOT!)...the mom then felt the only thing to do to be able to keep a relationship with her daughter was to keep attending. I know of mothers who hang around...for the sake of a relationship with their sons. I know of husbands trooping off to church in Graham...because...the leadership fills the ears of their wives with the idea that it would be o.k. to leave that poor man because he doesn't want to attend any longer. One man I know of goes to church in Graham only to be abused verbally by Davis...and told he's on his way to Hell...but he endures this...JUST TO KEEP HIS MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN...TOGETHER. And there are countless other stories. And we all know of some family who has suffered in this fashion...and that is why we are here posting and warning and exhorting people to stay away. I feel for you Helen. And if you need a friend to talk to or to write to...there are plenty of us out here. Be encouraged. And do not allow some man behind some wooden platform to make you feel less than what you really are...in God's eyes. Tracy Pelfrey tracyapelfrey@yahoo.com 330-546-5838 | ||
| tracypelfrey Junior Member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 41 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 76.211.6.33 |
Helen, Thnak you for posting your most inner feelings. When I first posted out here on Factnet after leaving NTCC, my mind went back to the first time I climbed the slippery steps up the 15-foot diving board at the community pool in the town I grew up in. It was a big deal for me then because I was afraid of heights...espcecially slippery heights...and when I got to the top...I just stood there...dripping wet from the pool...looking out over the horizon...not wanting to allow the fear that was gripping me to cause me to back down the steps. I felt as if all sound was turned off, except for my heavy breathing. The diving board was very "springy", and that added to further fears that I would fall off the side of the board and go *splat* on the concrete before ever getting to the end of the board to complete my dive. It seemed like it all took a long time...but before I knew it...I was in the pool...and swimming for the ladder...to get out...AND DO IT AGAIN! It was exhilarating. It was cool! And with each dive I completed after that I gained composure ande confidence and my form got less sloppy...and...hopefully you get the point. I think it takes a lot to post out here on Factnet...using your own name...whether in NTCC or out. I have a great respect for those who are not intimidated to just let us know who they are. At the same time, there are many circumstances where it would be foolish for the person posting to admit to their name...it would hurt a spouse or a sibling or a parent, etc. It is therapueutic to post here...and to read the threads also. It allows another point of view to enter the brain and to be processed accordingly. I hope Helen...that if you do attend another church that your husband will not allow others to fill his mind with the idea that it is o.k. to leave you because in NTCC's mind...you have left God. This scenario has been played out for decades in this group. But, considering the amount of time you've BEEN AROUND...I believe that you know that already and have taken it into consideration. There are many men and women right now...who are staying IN NTCC ONLY BECAUSE...they have a daughter that married a preacher and the daughter (under the direction of the leadership of NTCC)...was "dissing" her mother...(a great Christian virtue...right?)...(and fully supported by the Bible...NOT!)...the mom then felt the only thing to do to be able to keep a relationship with her daughter was to keep attending. I know of mothers who hang around...for the sake of a relationship with their sons. I know of husbands trooping off to church in Graham...because...the leadership fills the ears of their wives with the idea that it would be o.k. to leave that poor man because he doesn't want to attend any longer. One man I know of goes to church in Graham only to be abused verbally by Davis...and told he's on his way to Hell...but he endures this...JUST TO KEEP HIS MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN...TOGETHER. And there are countless other stories. And we all know of some family who has suffered in this fashion...and that is why we are here posting and warning and exhorting people to stay away. I feel for you Helen. And if you need a friend to talk to or to write to...there are plenty of us out here. Be encouraged. And do not allow some man behind some wooden platform to make you feel less than what you really are...in God's eyes. Tracy Pelfrey tracyapelfrey@yahoo.com 330-546-5838 | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1023 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.156.172 |
Helen, This sounds like lame advice, but I would not recommend leaving if staying around is safer for your marriage. You might find a way to show your husband the hurt it causes you to have to endure something like this. You might find a way to show him that attending a place that is mutually acceptible would be healthier for you. In addition, if he shows a determination to stay in ntcc 'no matter what', you might find a way to show him just exactly how cult-like this attitude is, as in; "So...you're saying you can't be saved outside this church? Is that what you're saying? 'Cause it sure sounds like that's what you're saying..." | ||
| quest4truth New member Username: quest4truth Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.206.245.89 |
Weezer, I agree with you in that I should not be so focused on finding a church, as if my salvation/relationship with God depends on that. My salvation is based upon the fact that I have accepted Jesus Christ has my lord and savior. I also maintain my relationship with Him, through my thoughts prayers, and reading of his word. Now as far as attending ntcc is concerned, when I do attend, which is mostly on Sundays, if I go at all. when I do attend I am bored, but I will pray and ask the The Lord, If there is anything he has for me in this service, that He will allow my heart and mind to be open and receptive to it. My wish is to not only stay close to Jesus, but also grow closer to him. I want my relationship with Christ to be real, not based upon whether I attend ntcc or not, or any church for that matter. It is my desire and prayer that my life, and how I live my life worships Jesus. | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
Posted on Wednesday, January 09, 2008 - 10:16 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Helen, This sounds like lame advice, but I would not recommend leaving if staying around is safer for your marriage. You might find a way to show your husband the hurt it causes you to have to endure something like this. You might find a way to show him that attending a place that is mutually acceptible would be healthier for you. I totally agree. If Bro Love is still the pastor there, then it may not be such a bad thing as long as the org stuff isn't being rammed down you guys' throats. As long as nobody is pushing you guys to go to bible school or other things, then it may be ok to stay anyway. If Bro Love is still the same as I knew of him back in the 90's, then I'd say you're doing ok if you stayed there anyway. You're doing the right thing, Helen, because you don't want the NTCC loyalty thing to come between you two. We've seen that happen all too many times to so many couples. If it's safe to do so, say hello to your husband for me. Love in Christ, Marc Perez | ||
| quest4truth New member Username: quest4truth Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.205.124.142 |
Thank you for your advice Pelfdaddy and Marc. Emotionally I do no feel a part of nttcc. I love the people there, and Yes Rev Love is a good pastor. There has been a few things that he as said that we have not agreed with, but most of all, He is a good pastor. The Last thing I do not want, is my marriage to end, all because I quit attending nttc. I honestly believe that it would not happen. Then I could be wrong. But my feelings are, what kind of marriage do I have, if it is in contact, as long as I and my husband feel we must stay in ntcc. I know I may be acting out on emotions on wanting to leave. I am displeased with the organization with all of the negative things I have been reading, especially within the leaders. I feel that by attending, I am agreeing with the the terrible things that have been said to others and any harm done to them. As far as Pastor Love, pushing us in anyway, he is not, at least not in the extreme way that I have heard other preachers do. At this point I feel stag net in my growth with God. I do not feel I am growing In Christ, which is also why I am considering finding another church to attend. Another thing is, I have come to no longer agree with a lot of the standards that are taught. I do not agree with the thinking that a person is not saved just because they do not live by outward holiness standards, and I do not agree with a person, that they are being rebellious if they choose not to live by those standards. Our salvation is based upon the Grace and Mercy of Jesus Christ, not upon works, and not upon what any man says we should do or not do. What I am considering is not completely stopping my attendance with nttcc, but also find a church I can attend once or twice a week. Maybe even find Christian groups during the day to fellowship with. My thoughts are to support my husband, as he may still feel the need to attend nttc, but at the same time, take responsibility for my own salvation and relationship with God. Helen | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 33 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
What I am considering is not completely stopping my attendance with nttcc, but also find a church I can attend once or twice a week. Maybe even find Christian groups during the day to fellowship with. My thoughts are to support my husband, as he may still feel the need to attend nttc, but at the same time, take responsibility for my own salvation and relationship with God. Helen That sounds like a great idea!!! That would be good for you, in that you're fellowship will not be confined to just a few NTCCers AND it will help you not look down on other Christians as inferior or unclean because they're not DAVISITES/KEKELITES/PARASITES...LOL. That spiritual superiority that many of us had in NTCC is not of God and it took a bit to shake it off after leaving. The longer you're out of NTCC, the more you realize how ridiculous most things were over there. Marc Perez | ||
| quest4truth New member Username: quest4truth Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.205.255.112 |
Marc, I hope I never gave anyone the notion that I looked down upon other Christians that were not in NTCC. What I don't understand, is why do certain individuals in the organization have the mentality that Christians outside ntcc are not real Christians. That is being very judgmental. | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1031 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.251.39 |
quest, The reason for the judgmentalism is simple. People who start organizations like ntcc have a vested interest in exclusivity. Anyone who sells a product must have a 'hook', a reason for someone to buy his product rather than another. Elevating certain man-made standards to the level of dogma is one way to do this. You would not expect a restaurant owner to say, "Go ahead and sample every restaurant in town! They all have great food!" You would expect him to say, "Come back real soon!" But you would never believe him if he said, "Every other restaurant in town will poison you! You can only survive if you eat here!" NTCC adopts the attitude of the last owner. RW Davis is a man incapable of imagining a world in which he is not God's One True Voice. And to allow for the possibility that he is anything less would be an invitation for his followers to see him as merely human. He cannot tolerate this. Whether he is surrounded by ten people or ten thousand, they must view him as God's Man, and heap praise upon him for his greatness. Otherwise, he would rather that they would simply go away. | ||
| ntcctruth Junior Member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
Hi Helen, No, you never was that way. I'm talking about the mentality that is instilled in us at NTCC in general. Professor Pelfdaddy, Well said...right on... Marc Perez | ||
| quest4truth New member Username: quest4truth Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 75.204.116.174 |
Thanks Marc, for clearing that up with me. In regards to the mentality towards other Christians, is that one of the reasons, members like me are discouraged from visiting other churches. Even going to church with family when visiting them? | ||
| pelfdaddy Senior Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 1032 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.128.207.213 |
quest, I think the question immediately above is a self-answering one. Take out everything from "In regards.." to "...the reasons..." and read what is left. Then just let it sink in. |
