| Author | Message | ||
     ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 74.50.202.54 |
Why isn't the Gospel good enough for Pentecostals? Why are there so many religious movements out there? Ambition? Zealotry over some revelation or doctrine that others aren't teaching or preaching? Why do ministers create movements based on some added teachings that aren't in the Bible, but yet teach as if they are? Is it because they feel that the plain ol' gospel isn't good enough to use as fodder to build their churches, corporations, and advance their ambitious agendas? If you ask any org leader, especially a pentecostal one (i.e.: Davis or Kekel), they will hotly deny this, but it's personal ambition and they'll always turn their head away from this reality. Why are so many deceived that these movements, including the Pentecostal movement, consist of God's move for the day or even the last days? Is it because the gospel, in of itself, is not good enough? Not sensational enough? Too boring? Gotta add some personal spin to it? Gotta add some effect to it that's not even Bible? Here's an example of what I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKFSvKhnX7U Now tell me where in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, do we find people laying hands on people in services and cause them to fall because of supposed Holy Ghost power/anointing going thru their hands to the believers heads? To the credit of NTCC, this phenomena doesn't happen there, but it happens in so many pentecostal churches and their all guilty of adding stuff that isn't in the Bible. Why isn't preaching the gospel good enough for their heads? Why can't the power of the Word be good enough to cause an individual to lay themselves down at the altar before God? Why resort to gimmicks and tactics like this? This is only one of many examples of religious groups having to add hype and fluff that isn't even Biblical yet so many believers think its so because others are doing it...many don't dare question it. Sound familiar? Marc Perez | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 74.50.202.54 |
If a person in your home was called upon to pray and give thanks for the meal and they added a whole lot of fluff and dramatics, wouldn't you say something? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4cMOnJ7l78 Then why not say something when people, supposing to act on behalf of God and the Bible, are adding a bunch of self ambition and fluff to what should be an honest-to-goodness prayer, service, or teaching? That's what FACTNET is for. You can't challenge or question their "authority." I thought that Jesus was the authority. I thought that all of Christians are kings and priests in God's kingdom. Yet we're supposed to shut up, pay up, kiss up, and measure up to their added-to-the-Bible doctrines and practices of man. Why isn't the gospel good enough? Marc Perez | ||
| rls New member Username: rls Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 65.28.108.137 |
Marc I do attend a pentecostal church, an Assemblies Of God one. Although in some, this no doubt takes place, I will say this much, this doesn't typically happen in all or most. The Pentecostal movement came about as a result of things happening in revival. The gifts of the Spirit were in operation and coming to prominence, even though there were mainline churches who were against that. Yet, where is it written in the Bible that those gifts cease? It's not really. Yet, there are as you say, people who add to things, and that is a danger that needs to be dealt with. This is one of the reasons that I am currently in the Assemblies Of God, because it is usually a good combination of checks and balances keeping a lot of this stuff in check. As to laying on hands and people falling down. I don't know that all of it is absolutely fake. I did twice, maybe thrice succumb physically to the power of God's presence, only I didn't go blind, (did you catch the Scripture reference in that, Acts). Once there were no hands layed on me at all, and when I fell on a hard wood pew seat, there was no injury. The difference is when there are people expecting you to fall, and either try to "catch" you, (to which I say if God wants to catch me, He will, and has), and others have tried to push a little harder on my forehead, (to which I say, if God wants my body to succumb to His presence, He will make sure of it). Any good pentecostal or other Christian preacher wants you to check him/her out, or question him/her. But, there is order in the services, and a time and place for all of that. Paul had to get on the church at Corinth because of a lack of order in the congregation, among other things. | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 74.50.202.54 |
Rick, The Assembly of God Church that I go to has the laying of hands with people falling down at altar call. All of the A/G churches are semi-autonomous, which means their not required to be in lock step with each other except in the basics (i.e.: salvation, Holy Ghost baptism). That's a part of the service where I know it isn't God...there's no Biblical backing of such a set events. The only consolation is that they are not trying to run people's lives, etc like you know where. You had mentioned that there was a scripture reference in Acts? I'm not sure which event you're referring to. Maybe you can point it out. Marc Perez | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 74.50.202.54 |
My wife and kids are in Honolulu (stationed there for another 2 1/2 years as I stayed behind for the job/income opportunity I have here) and I go visit them each month. I've noticed that the church they go to does the offering differently than most. You know how most places (including NTCC) will receive the offering after the worship portion of the service THEN go to the preaching. It's good to receive the offering before the preaching because that makes the coast clear for God to move upon the hearts of people as the Word is being preached (if it's being preached) and it results in people praying at altar call about what God has dealt with them about. Well...at this place in Hawaii, the preacher will generally preach a good gospel message, but use the climax of the message (when people are feeling guilty or realizing their need to pray) to then transition into receiving the offering. They have everyone get up in order by row and proceed to the altar where two ushers have huge baskets to hold the offering, and then they go back to their seats. After the offering, the pastor or service leader will give a brief obligatory call for any one who needs prayer. I can see the manipulation of the effect of the message to get people to give more when the people are feeling guilty, need to get right, do more for God, pray, etc at the time when most services would have the invitation to Christ. I believe that this has a detrimental effect on the people especially in regards to being distracted and jeopardizing an opportunity to connect with Christ...along with the fact that it sends a message that the offering is more important than the invitation. I wrote that pastor asking him why he does that and how I could see that it was being done on purpose - to raise more offering when people are at the most tender moment - in order to pay for all the overhead, etc. He preached about it the following week (I wasn't there) and said he believed that altar call is in people's hearts and people get saved at their seats. I believe that too. Yet he missed the point or was dismissing it and was clearly a bit agitated by my challenging him on this issue. Upon hearing of this, I wrote him a second time and asked him this one question: If you have so much faith in people just giving of themselves to Christ at their seats without leading/asking them, then why not have that same faith in the fact that people who get saved and connected with God will give even without having to manipulate the order of the service to get them to give more? People who are saved will be ready to give before they arrive at the door. I told him that nobody has to put a gun to our head to make us give, etc, because we're saved. He never responded. Isn't the gospel good enough? Why use gimmicks or hijinx (sp?)? Why be so money hungry in order to finance some big corporate operation? As Bro Derrick posted, "winning" at building a church program (as men would do) means some Christians/people are losing. Why? Because the preaching of the gospel in of itself isn't good enough. Marc Perez | ||
| rls New member Username: rls Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 65.28.108.137 |
http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/sptlissues_manifestations.cfm The web site I pasted in above might be of some help as to AG position on various manifestations. You will see that they are at least concerned that whatever the manifestation, it must be bring glory to God and produce positive changes in the life of the believer, that produces good spiritual fruit. Paul fell under God's power in the book of Acts. Acts 9 Saul's Conversion 1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. 10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!" "Yes, Lord," he answered. 11The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." 13"Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." 15But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." 17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength. | ||
| rls New member Username: rls Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 65.28.108.137 |
It is different, but the point is that in an of itself it is a spiritual manifestation that is not a common occurence or otherwise listed Scripturally. There are of course other occurences listed in the Bible of varying sorts, but are not always the common everyday thing, many are listed by the way in the Old Testament. The last one written about was in the book of Revelation. I attribute the occurences that I had, as not common everyday things, but as a manifestation of God working on the various needs at the time that they happened. This also happened regardless of the vessel by whom was perceived to be used. In all instances, God was prayed to by someone, but even the person praying did not know exactly what to pray for, but God knew whatever the needs were at the time. | ||
| rls New member Username: rls Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 65.28.108.137 |
Marc concerning Honolulu: I would not keep my family at a church where the pastor practised that. That in my perception that the pastor is practicing would be quenching the work of the Holy Spirit in a congregation. (Message edited by rls on January 01, 2008) | ||
| rls New member Username: rls Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 65.28.108.137 |
I will give you one more of my experiences, that was not a common occurence. This happened a little while before NTCC. I was in AIT in Ft. Eustis, VA at the time. I had entered a period in life that I was going through a severe trial in my relationship with God. I had also partook in activities that I was not proud of. However, while in a unit dayroom, I had heard someone calling for me, and he was not there, or so I thought. Then the voice came to me again, saying something that I would understand considering my exposure to agriculture: "Why are you wallering in sin like a hog in hog slop?" At that moment I was asking, "Is it God?" The next that came to me was, "You have two choices, you can either keep sinning and wind up in Hell or you can repent and follow after Me.", (not sure of my memory on this part and I'm tired after working all night). But, I knew it was God. The voice was clear, no muddling around, absolutely clear. There were other Christians in the unit who I believe were praying for me, as well as people from my hometown. Oh by the way, I straightened up post haste with His help. | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 74.50.202.54 |
You're right in respect to the fact that Paul's situation in Acts is totally different than what is being practiced routinely at so many pentecostal churches weekly. I am also considering what you said about Honolulu. I've talked with my wife about it recently and she said the kids enjoy it and our 19 year old nephew got saved there and is being an usher. They tried going to the Assembly of God that I had initially recommended but the kids didn't respond as well there...at least in respect to the boys. I told my wife that if she gets any static for what I have written to the pastor at that church, then she shouldn't be intimidated and should leave immediately. I'm inclined to believe that they shouldn't be there either, but I won't force the issue since I'm only there once a month for now. So we'll see how events unfold. That quenching of the Holy Spirit is a result of a man whose principals are affected by the building of a program rather than just believing that the preaching and teaching of the gospel is good enough. The gospel alone doesn't seem to be good enough for the "church builders." Marc Perez | ||
| rls New member Username: rls Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 65.28.108.137 |
That quenching of the Holy Spirit is a result of a man whose principals are affected by the building of a program rather than just believing that the preaching and teaching of the gospel is good enough. The gospel alone doesn't seem to be good enough for the "church builders." Marc Perez I agree. With what I see, it is transdenominational, and multi organizational, concerning that kind of problem. Whether preachers teach to itching ears, and adlib, or get harsh and controlling or some other thing and adlib, it sends up my red flag warnings. Then I start checking things out, etcetera. Although I am a member where I am at, I am not a staunch AG type. In fact I am kind of torn between them and the Messianic movement, (the ones who embrace the same Messiah we do), although to be fair the AG organization seems to be embracing them under their cultural ministries area. And, one has to be careful that you don't wind up with a bunch of Judaizers,(gotta be Jewish to be saved)}. | ||
| okel New member Username: okel Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 70.6.211.188 |
why do people feel they "have to" belong or attend a church function in order to be saved and/or right with God ? i'm not saying don't attend church, but it seems people think/believe if they don't attend church they can't be saved / can't get right with God. If God is on the inside of you, it doesn't matter where you go or don't go. you could go to some crazy church and because God is in you, you'll still benefit from the message. I recently came to the conclusion that in almost any church i attend, there will be things i don't think are right, but that doesn't stop God from blessing in it anyway. perhaps for me all this was like a joseph experience. I'm not sure yet, but if I do start something, it will probably be in my house (maybe a church, i don't know) but the focus will be on me preaching what God leads me to preach and leading others to salvation. Period. none of this, why did you miss church, if you were a christian you'd be in every service, you'd give more, etc,etc. When I think about doing this, God bears witness with His spirit. Perhaps something simple like this is all God wants anyway. | ||
| victorjohanson New member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 216.67.49.90 |
"why do people feel they "have to" belong or attend a church function in order to be saved and/or right with God ?" Because they've been persuased so by certain preachers, who themselves have a vested interest in a full church-house (especially when passing the offering basket). Guilt can be a great motivator, you know. | ||
| okel New member Username: okel Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 70.6.211.188 |
why did Paul work with his own hands to not be burdensome even though he didn't have to ? | ||
| victorjohanson New member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 216.67.49.90 |
"why did Paul work with his own hands to not be burdensome even though he didn't have to ?" Because he wasn't a modern day parasitic 'minister' who feeds on the flock instead of feeding it. | ||
| objectiveobserver New member Username: objectiveobserver Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 63.147.151.190 |
Marc, I kind of like the concept of giving at the end of the service, for the same reason I determine the amount I tip, at the end of the meal, based on the quality of the service.  In reality, I think the manipulative part of this church's offering practice, is not in the order that its done, but in compelling people to walk to the front to give, the peer pressure must be huge. Larry D | ||
| victorjohanson New member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
"Marc, I kind of like the concept of giving at the end of the service, for the same reason I determine the amount I tip, at the end of the meal, based on the quality of the service." But doesn't that degrade worship to a mere commercial transaction? Do you think you're PAYING for something when you go to church? Maybe giving an offering should be viewed as an act of faith instead. | ||
| objectiveobserver New member Username: objectiveobserver Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 63.147.151.190 |
Vic I was just having a little fun, but while of course I agree it should be an act of faith, or more specifically an act of devotion to the Saviour, we all know of course the church bills need to be paid. If the truth be told, at the end of certain services I would have liked to have a refund. Larry D | ||
| victorjohanson New member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
"If the truth be told, at the end of certain services I would have liked to have a refund." Now that's a concept I can get behind! I think some of those 'acts of faith' of mine proved a bit shaky. | ||
| doug_allen Intermediate Member Username: doug_allen Post Number: 240 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.35.72.9 |
Larry, were you ever at a conference when they took up pledges and then read out every single name and how much was pledged? It always made me feel uncomfortable, but I always brushed the feeling aside as though something were wrong with me. I also felt for Brother Porterfield when people were pledging 2,000 bucks and more and getting oohs and ahhs and his 100.00 in cash got this look like what is he doing? | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
Good points Larry, Vic, and Doug. All good points. I agree that this church in Honolulu is using these tactics on purpose to manipulate the people into giving more. The thought of wanting a refund has crossed my mind a time or two over the years. This thought ties in with those conferences that Doug mentioned. I always pledged $240. I thought that the reading of the names was a waste of time. Yet as Tanya Kekel told me before, "Pastor doesn't waste words..." Looking back, Davis had announced in advance that he'd read those names on purpose in order to manipulate or "inspire" people to give more. Looking back, I wish I could get a refund. Marc Perez | ||
| doug_allen Intermediate Member Username: doug_allen Post Number: 246 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.35.72.9 |
"I thought that the reading of the names was a waste of time." I thought that it was more that just a waste of time...I was very uncomfortable because of the teaching of Jesus: Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. | ||
| mklo Advanced Member Username: mklo Post Number: 687 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.114.218 |
That more or less sums up my entire NTCC experience. | ||
| tracypelfrey New member Username: tracypelfrey Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 69.208.10.131 |
Jerry Duran said: "we all know of course the church bills need to be paid." DO WE REALLY "all know of course"? How come I attend a church which does not take up offerings and yet...the church bills are paid? They put a box in the back of the church and somehow and in some way...the bills are paid and then some. It is a large church building with tons and tons of children's church rooms and stuff in them...not like in NTCC...where each of the teachers provides everything needed...down to the blank paper and crayons...which is no big deal to me now or then...but...whereas NTCC sends around the bags and plates and baskets...the church we attend now does not. Also, whenever there are activities for the high-school aged kids...we are never asked to bring anything...and you know what it does? It causes me to WANT TO GIVE...out of gratitude and appreciation. Jesus never encourages churches to be built...and He never encourages baskets to be sent around to pay for the bills, we which all know, of course...need to be paid. That is something man has come up with all on his own, and as usual...has made a mess out of it. And, it is all meant to sound perfectly reasonable...isn't it? "After all, the bills do need to be paid...right?" That seems reasonable...we can all relate. We pay our bills at home...our utilities...and someone has to pay for them, right? So, it only stands to reason that someone must pay the bills for the church building, right? I take issue with that. Having a building with bills which need to be paid...is all a part of what has become the professional ministry...in their professional buildings. Is that why Christ came to the earth? To set up these money-taker establishments? And, the icing on the cake...is that NTCC and other controlling and abusive religious organizations like them...then have the audacity to announce that all Christians pay tithes and give in the offerings...and what do you get during the sermon which follows your OFFERING?... then YOU are preached at concerning where YOU will go if YOU don't ante up. If the Bible tells us that with food and raiment we should be content...then why does that not apply to the professional ministry and it's large edifices which are there to suck the life energy...in the form of cash...from the parishioners? It applies to all and none are exempt. And, I believe that I have more of the Bible and Jesus' words backing me up on this one than those do that believe that "after all, of course, the bills must be paid". Hogwash. With food and raiment...be content | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 74.50.202.54 |
You're pretty much spot-on, Tracy. What many of us aren't too consciously aware of is that most of the traditions in NTCC and the corporate church culture came from THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. This includes the manipulation of the people to give more and more with hijinx and guilt. I'm not saying that it's unbiblical to give because Christians do give. Yet I like the idea of Tracy's church that they don't put so much emphasis on it and they certainly don't seem to be all about self-promotion about giving, building, giving, building, expanding, building, giving, on and on and on and on. Seems like they practice the same idea that's being promoted here - if you lead people to Christ with the preaching of His Word, then people will give out of the desire that God puts in their hearts. Isn't that what Christian living is all about? Walking with the Lord...letting God lead us...not a man? Man is merely the messenger...the servant of God...we are all Kings and Priests with Christ Jesus...not lords over one another or manipulators over one another. Why isn't the preaching of the straight gospel good enough for these pentecostals? Marc Perez | ||
| objectiveobserver New member Username: objectiveobserver Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 63.147.151.190 |
Yes Doug, I have been present for some of those sessions, and I confess to pledging more than I would have if it had been a private process. I am un-comfortable with any format that peer pressures people into giving, or giving more. Tracy you are a moron, thanks for agreeing with me that the bills do need to be paid in any church setting, if you re-read your post your only dis-agreement seems to be the manner in which it is accomplished, which was the point of the discussion to begin with. You, to butcher an old saying ..."should be seen, and not heard.." or preferably, neither. Larry D | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
I think we can all agree that manipulation of the people to get more money to finance a corporate religious enterprise is wrong. I think Tracy's frustration is shared by alot of us here in that corporation building is too often (almost always) done at the expense and detriment of the saints with no added benefit to the Kingdom of God. It's not right to call Tracy a moron and we all agree on the stated premise concerning the evil of manipulation. Marc Perez | ||
| pelfdaddy Advanced Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 991 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.185.172 |
Jerry, Come on, man. Did you miss Tracy's sarcasm? She does not agree with you, alright? What am I going to do with you, Jerry? tsk tsk | ||
| mklo Advanced Member Username: mklo Post Number: 690 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 67.185.114.218 |
You mean, like this one? http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/19419.html?1188115616 | ||
| objectiveobserver New member Username: objectiveobserver Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 63.147.151.190 |
Yes Brian I did miss the sarcasm of "her windyness", she opens by endorsing the giving method of the church she now attends, and then spends the next 300 plus words railing against the concept of church buildings that need to be paid for. She make no sense as usual but hey you married her, you deal with it  I'm sure that over the road gig is happy times for you. Hope you don't miss my sarcasm. I respect your intellect but despise your hate-mongering, just so we're clear. Mklo Happy New Year, bait the next guy. Larry D | ||
| mark_g New member Username: mark_g Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 72.201.122.179 |
Wow, after reading all of that I think I'll go get my MP3 player along with the headphones and listen to some Beatles. "Wow,Ace and Gary.......Right here in our own neighborhood".... "I hear they're Fruits"............ "NO WAY"!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We all live in a Yellow Submarine. | ||
| pelfdaddy Advanced Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 997 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.68.183 |
Jerry, I notice you called my wife a moron. That is interesting. You know, I have been a hatemonger because I hate RW Davis, because he is a religious gangster, and because he belongs in jail, and because of the hundreds of lives he has wantonly wrecked. But I do not refer to women, if I am aware of their identity, by derogatory names. I do have standards. | ||
| objectiveobserver New member Username: objectiveobserver Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 71.208.59.12 |
Brian I thought the name was appropo, it's a little late for you and the mrs. to attempt to take the high road, and you know what you can do with your standards? Guess,  Larry D | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
 I totally understood your points, Tracy. I know of churches who haven't bowed the knee to corporate and financial ambitions. The devil knows how to tempt people into saying "bow the knee unto me...(love of money, power, etc) and I'll give you all of this." He tried it on Jesus and it didn't work. He tries it on everyone and it works everytime unless they've chosen to resist the devil. We all know what the Bible says about that - resist the devil and he shall flee... I know of a church assembly where they not only don't try to slyly manipulate its members into giving more, but they also share their church building with another church assembly RENT FREE with the agreement that the tenant assembly gives the equivalent amount of rent to outside missionaries. WOW! Imagine that - being a blessing to somebody else without trying to squeeze every dollar possible for the good of missionaries! Would anything like that ever happen in Graham? Not on your life. As a matter-of-fact, despite all of the squeezing of the saints for more money, they fail to properly support THEIR OWN MISSIONARIES, much less any other missionaries. Why isn't the gospel good enough? Because the gospel isn't written on $100 bills...nor do the seeds thereof sprout into money trees. Marc Perez | ||
| pelfdaddy Advanced Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 998 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 166.214.11.135 |
Jerry, And you know what you can do with the 'high road'. Stick it up your Davis. | ||
| ntcctruth New member Username: ntcctruth Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 70.102.118.90 |
And you know what you can do with the 'high road'. Stick it up your Davis. Hmmmm...sounds like Prof. Pelfdaddy code...he must have learned it from NTCC cuz it sounds so familiar. Bailey uses alot of innuendo in reference to certain body parts and actions relating to them...ahem...  Marc Perez |
