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jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.58
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 8:47 pm: | 
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What would the TwelveTribes be like if they were what they claimed?
In major cities they would open homeless shelters to assist those with the greatest need. They would run food banks, and thrift stores to help the poor and needy. They would have cafes and coffee shops open as ways to meet people and to offer refuge for the spiritually homeless. Their message would be honest, pure, and simple; not couched in "community speak" to hide the reality of their life. The fruit of the Spirit would be their standard for spiritually, not the ability to make sophisticated arguments from a biblical perspective.
There would be no franchised lifestyle where every community was a clone of some imaginary community that only existed in freepapers. Instead each community would be distinctive by how the Holy Spirit led it to grow. It would be a place where people would make mistakes and where honesty would be prized far more than the presentation of a polished image to the public.
As a matter of fact there would be no image presented to the public but only the reality of sincere and honest human beings putting into practice a faith so often lauded by so many denominations but never used.
It would be places full of grit and gristle, where the floors weren't always clean and the right things not always said. But it would be honest and real. People would leave and return and not be looked down upon, because everyone has their own journey of faith to walk.
Above all else, honesty would be their calling card. Not pretending to be anything that they weren't, but sincere people trying to live the faith described to them in the bible.
(Message edited by jodymcgrody on December 25, 2007) |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 62
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.58
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 9:22 pm: |
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These would be places where you could meet real human beings. Where the open forums would be more for those in the group seeking to define and refine their faith and beliefs rather than for visitors to hear a fabricated, pre-approved message.
There would be no complex teachings for people to veil their motives inside of but only the most basic, fundamental, and most difficult to actually live out; to love one another. And without the complex theology or doctrines to hide behind, the refiners fire would burn hot as only honesty can. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 63
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 69.19.14.30
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 9:47 pm: |
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A place without rules and controls, where we would each be responsible for our own actions. A place where you could actually discover if you were living in the Spirit or only deceiving yourself. Where finding this out didn't mean becoming an outcast but was just an accepted part of living an honest and real spiritual life. |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1908
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 10:28 pm: |
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*dont worry, Im not trying to de-rail this thread by posting a song here...
but to add to the question of the thread...
If God had a Name,
what would it be and -
would you call it to His face
if you were faced with Him
in all His Glory,
what would you ask
if You had just one question...
and yeah, yeah
God is great
Yeah, yeah
God is good
Yeah, yeah
yeah yeah yeah
What if God was one of Us?
Just a slob like one of Us?
Just a stranger on a bus, trying to make His
way home...
If God had a face,
what would it look like and
would you want to see
if seeing meant that
You would have to believe
in things like
Heaven and in Jesus and the Saints
and all the Prophets and...
Yeah, yeah
God is great
Yeah, yeah
God is good
Yeah, yeah
yeah yeah yeah
What if God was one of Us?
Just a slob like one of Us?
Just a stranger on a bus,
trying to make His way Home...
Tryin' to make his way Home
Back up to Heaven all alone...
Nobody callin' on the phone
'Cept for the Pope maybe in Rome...
and Yeah, yeah
God is Great
Yeah, yeah
God is Good
Yeah, yeah
yeah yeah yeah
What if God was one of Us?
Just a slob like one of Us?
Just a Stranger on a bus,
trying to make His way Home...
just tryin to make his way home...
Just like a holy rolling stone... |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.107
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 10:54 pm: |
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"He has won our hearts and brought us together as a people to demonstrate His love and care in the midst of a collapsing social order."
This statement is taken from the first page of their website. How does creating insular communities demonstrate love and care to a collapsing social order? Isn't this the equivalent to a Christmas TV special for homeless people? Like saying
"we just want to show people what it looks like, we don't actually want to get our hands dirty."
Nothing quite demonstrates love and care like actual "love" and "care" in real and tangible ways. Instead of wading into the midst of this collapsing social order armed with love and faith in God the Community just points out the obvious and then avoids the issue altogether.
For the shattered lives of those on the collapsing side of this social order they offer trite comments on their website and enough biblical references to choke out a professional theologian. There just isn't any substance to what they preach. And to declare that they are demonstrating love and care in a world full of people who daily experience the absence of those two things is disgusting in the least. For the homeless person who only knew love through the physical and verbal abuse of those who were supposed to be his gaurdians, here's an example of us dancing in the park where later he'll die from exposure. For the child going hungry tonight, here's a tasty freepaper telling you how your mom's going to the lake of fire for all the bad decisions she's made.
(Message edited by jodymcgrody on December 25, 2007)
(Message edited by jodymcgrody on December 25, 2007) |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.107
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 11:17 pm: |
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And how would this be different if indeed they were what they claimed? Instead of polished images designed to "demonstrate love and care" like a plastic manger scene in front of a brand new church wouldn't God want to reach down right into the thick of this collapsing social order and actually "love" and "care" for some of his creation through his servants? Wouldn't this be a profound and remarkable demonstration?
It would but it would lack the antiseptic quality of being "set apart", meaning "we don't get our hands dirty". |
nabashalam
Senior Member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 1909
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 11:37 pm: |
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"we don't get our hands dirty" and your plates we must wash with bleach!
While in the community in Brunswick, Ga. I was having a great conversation with this young transient homeless man who I invited back to the house for something to eat and a place to sit and talk. Yohannan Abraham stopped me before we got to the porch and pulled me aside and said "we aren't running a homeless shelter here! We aren't the Salvation Army!" and he told me to send the young man away.
I was saddened at the fact I couldnt even offer this man a cup of mate' or a place to sleep but also humiliated that I had to re-tract my invitation. But I also was ashamed at the fact that I had just been disciplined by an elder.
But like a good "disciple" I "received my discipline" repented and trudged on.... blindly...
But come to think of it he was right! Theres no salvation in their army!
(Message edited by nabashalam on December 25, 2007) |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.107
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 25, 2007 - 11:51 pm: |
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Exactly my point. An antiseptic environment.
Were the Community to even attempt to actually be what it claimed to be the world would begin to be a different place.
And as always there will be no response from anyone in the TwelveTribes, "we are the ones" , cult of fantasy. The sincere will be silenced by the looks of their leaders, and the insincere will provide beautiful and logical biblical expositions of why God doesn't expect them to care about anyone outside the "hive".
"Love" and "care" are reduced to token catch phrases without any substance, while those who would actually do the will of God are instead reduced to handing out tracts at public events. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 67
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.107
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 12:30 am: |
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And here we reach the crux, that the TwelveTribes, like all of Christianity, have missed the point. The bus came and went but they found the bus stop more entertaining than taking the actual bus ride. They sit at the bus stop telling themselves and anyone who'll listen what a great journey they're on, while sitting on a bench watching bus after bus leave the station. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.107
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 12:51 am: |
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In the meantime, a collapsing social order continues to maintain it's structure by building on the backs of humanity.
(Message edited by jodymcgrody on December 26, 2007) |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2794
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 71.255.151.176
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 1:15 am: |
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in my particular case the most beautiful experience one could have was squelched by the teachings of the TT.
i would no longer call it this, but for lack of a better way for all of us to understand what happened to me, i received the holy spirit when i was baptized into the TT.
it was amazing what happened to me.
i came up out of that water and all i could say was; "i feel so clean!"
you would think i would go off skipping and jumping with joy.
that is not what happened however.
it ended up being one of the most difficult experiences of my life to understand.
in retrospect i understand perfectly what happened to me.
at the time the only frame of reference i had to understand it was from the perspective of the TT teachings.
here is what i mean.
some 10yrs before this happened i found the TT in island pond vt. through a friend of mine that i had studied bible with.
i was ecstatic to say the least.
finally i thought, i have found god's people after a 7yr long search.
a search that nearly ended in suicide.
i walked away from that first meeting back in the 80's completely despondent.
you see, when i was a christian i had a very beautiful experience.
i received the holy spirit.
when i told the people in the TT that i already had the holy spirit, they said that that could not be true because you cannot receive the holy spirit as a christian.
they said what i had experienced was a christian spirit and that i could only receive the holy spirit from them.
i believed them of course.
after all, they were god's people, the ones that i just spent 7yrs of my life searching for.
they must be right.
i could not however part with the experience that i had, and ended up leaving before i became a member.
so when i returned 10yrs later i was baptized and received the same spirit that i received as a christian!
imagine that, the exact same experience that i had 10yrs earlier as a christian.
when i realized what had happened to me i was so confused, i thought there must be something terribly wrong with me.
(Message edited by fatherofaking on December 26, 2007) |
fatherofaking
Senior Member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 2795
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 71.255.151.176
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 1:16 am: |
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so instead of going off skipping and jumping for joy, i went off thinking that my heart must be the most evil thing on earth.
i thought i was completely sincere, and yet god would not honor my sincerity.
according to what i had been told i figured there must be something very wrong with me.
i pushed that experience away instead of embracing it like i should have.
it was horrible.
i would get up before the sun every morning and go out crying at the top of my lungs for understanding.
"what was wrong with me," i would ask god over and over again.
"why was i not worthy to receive the holy spirit?" i would ask over and over again.
"why was i plagued by this evil spirit?"
of course i never got an answer.
after about 2yrs i became so depressed that i could not even function.
i was soon sent packing, being told that i was not being obedient, so i had to go.
it took me 10yrs to finally come to grips with what had happened to me.
it was one of the worst 10yrs of my life.
i had been rejected by god's people twice.
i knew i was headed for hell.
when i finally began to take an objective look at my life and what i had experienced, i began to think maybe it was not me that was wrong, maybe it was the teachings of the TT that was in error.
that was one of the hardest things i have ever done i think, to admit that the only people that i had believed were true people of god, were not really who they said they were.
i thought that if i admitted that even just to myself that i was doomed to hell.
i would no longer have any direction.
i couldn't be a christian and i couldn't go back to the TT.
it was like my whole life had been completely wasted.
what do i do now?
just take a look at the things i posted on these threads for two years if you want to see the anguish i went through.
naba can certainly testify to it.
i didn't even trust my own conscience.
this is the kind of thing that the teachings of the TT does to people.
the testimonies are all over this message board.
i am still fighting to get that experience back again.
the teachings of the TT put me into a prison that i am still trying to escape.
i have finally gotten to a point where i can trust myself again, but it has not been an easy road back.
just like you are asking jody, why are we not allowed to be free?
if i was allowed to be free to accept my very real and wonderful experience i would have been unstoppable!
unfortunately, i was stopped in my tracks by some very well meaning, but very misguided people.
i was set free and thrown into prison all in the same day. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.75
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 1:55 am: |
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Don't think for a minute that any of my posts aren't without an ulterior motive. If I didn't think there was something of value to be sought after I wouldn't waste any body's time by posting even a parenthesis on these threads or anywhere else for that matter.
But the fact is, as long as there are human beings drawing a breath then there is something that matters. All of that theological spin Christianity manufactures, TwelveTribes included, doesn't mean anything. It doesn't set anybody free, doesn't feed anybody and definitely doesn't show any "love" or "care" to anyone who needs it.
But it also doesn't invalidate the message in the new testament. Doesn't change the fact that "love" and "care" are more than token phrases to be bandied about by religious groups doing their pose for the camera. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.75
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 2:05 am: |
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All of that religious content is just so much bovine fecal matter clouding the reality of the issue. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 71
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.106
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 2:21 am: |
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A load of mental gumbo that has served only to cloud the truth in our minds, and distract us from what has always been our real purpose. The Gospel is simple, only human beings matter. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 72
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.106
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 2:41 am: |
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And nothing will ever change that. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 73
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.106
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 26, 2007 - 2:42 am: |
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What would the TwelveTribes be like if they were what they claimed?
In major cities they would open homeless shelters to assist those with the greatest need. They would run food banks, and thrift stores to help the poor and needy. They would have cafes and coffee shops open as ways to meet people and to offer refuge for the spiritually homeless. Their message would be honest, pure, and simple; not couched in "community speak" to hide the reality of their life. The fruit of the Spirit would be their standard for spiritually, not the ability to make sophisticated arguments from a biblical perspective. |
heartstar12
New member
Username: heartstar12
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2006
Posted From: 71.127.187.253
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 7:34 am: |
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I wasn't going to post any further, but thanks for all that has been said here. "You shall know them by their fruit" takes on more meaning for me now. I was also corrected for reaching out to the destitute when I first joined, after that I had less and less zeal to "fish for men." Now I know why in a deeper way. They also seem to make no attempt to heal the sick. I don't have time to get into this, but thank you again. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:45 pm: |
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Its like if your sick, Its your fault. You are being punished by "God" for your shortcomings....
What kind of "God" is that??? |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.86
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 12:55 pm: |
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A God that punishes you for your shortcomings. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:44 pm: |
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A "God" that punishes HIS fallible creation.
How sweet... |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:45 pm: |
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A "God" that punishes HIS fallible creation.
How sweet...
Wouldnt "correction" be in more order? |
fatherofaking
New member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 71.255.151.176
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2008 - 1:52 pm: |
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psalms 135:15-21
15 The idols (gods) of the nations are silver and gold, made by human hands.
16 These have mouths but say nothing, have eyes but see nothing,
17 have ears but hear nothing, and they have no breath in their mouths.
18 Their makers will end up like them, everyone who relies on them.
19 House of Israel, bless Yahweh, House of Aaron, bless Yahweh,
20 House of Levi, bless Yahweh, you who fear Yahweh, bless Yahweh.
21 Blessed be Yahweh from Zion, he who dwells in Jerusalem (man)!
additions in ( ) in verses 15 and 21 are mine. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3115
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.25
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 9:30 am: |
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The[y] have so many similarities!
Yes! Isn't it the basic trappings of the "mystery religion" social/mind control that has been refined and honed for thousands of years? I think it has been under development since the initial discoverer of fire became the first priest/scientist/politician and created a ruling class and brotherhood to guard the secret of its creation. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 11:54 am: |
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UGH!!! |
fatherofaking
New member
Username: fatherofaking
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 71.255.151.176
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 12:11 pm: |
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i agree naba.
it seems a bit one sided.
i think we all have control of our own lives.
i know how to start a fire anywhere and any time i want to.
i am my own priest/scientist/politician.
yes it is true there are somethings that we cannot control, but does that leave us without any control at all?
even if what you say is correct TO we still have the ability to accept it, do we not?
just thought i would add some things i thought you may have forgotten to mention. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 1:18 pm: |
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"You cannot control the birds that fly over your head...but you can stop them from building a nest in your hair!" -Chinese Proverb |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3119
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 198.49.119.54
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 3:34 pm: |
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Well, you only know how to start a fire because the eternal brotherhood has preserved that secret throughout the ages since starting fires is a learned activity as apposed to an instinctual one. Had it not been institutionalized and controlled it, along with agricultural cycles, would constantly have to be rediscovered. But that's not my point. The structure of cults like TT and the RCC are based on time proven social manipulation techniques. There is a difference between knowing that and understanding what you are really doing rather than being a victim of the system. However, I would put to you that is is impossible to enter into these situations and not be unduly influenced by the systems maintaining these cults.
FREEDOM:Yang worship word. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 11
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 5:59 pm: |
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Freedom? How dare you utter such a word? You do not speak it!!! |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 75
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.107
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 7:37 pm: |
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1. Everyone knows fire was brought to us by Prometheus.
2. "A God that punishes you for your shortcomings" is a perspective or viewpoint, not a statement about God. The truth of why someone gets sick is something to be discovered through intuitive knowledge and objective experience. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 76
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.107
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 7:45 pm: |
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I can tell someone they are sick because God is punishing them. I can also tell them they are ugly because God is punishing me. And even if I sincerely believe both statements to be true, it is still only my perspective. The reality is that we are only human beings, and what really matters isn't the theology but how I treat the other person. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.107
| | Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 8:03 pm: |
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Someday we are going to wake up to reality, to the here and now. We are going to stop seeing each other through filters of race, religion, caste, etcetera, and just see human beings. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 11:53 am: |
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Jody, I agree with what really matters but do you truly think there will come a time as you describe above?
There will have to be quite a purging to go on before that ever happens...
"One must be like a child..." |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 2:33 pm: |
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T.O.
Noam Chomsky said, "For those who stubbornly seek freedom, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the system of 'brainwashing under freedom' to which we are subjected and which all too often we serve as willing or unwitting instruments."
Robert Jay Lifton argues that the objective of phrases or slogans like "blood for oil," or "cut and run," is not to continue reflective conversations but to replace them with emotionally appealing phrases. This technique is called the thought-terminating cliché. |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3121
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.170.113.133
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 3:08 pm: |
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Nab,
Apparently, a large part of the effort is put into making the subject "want" whatever conditions are imposed upon them. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 4:21 pm: |
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"The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it." - Josef Mengele |
trainedobserver
Senior Member
Username: trainedobserver
Post Number: 3122
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.170.113.133
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 6:26 pm: |
|
Nab,
Apparently, a large part of the effort is put into making the subject "want" whatever conditions are imposed upon them. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 7:16 pm: |
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OK OK!
"Your heart is evil! You are sinners! You must pay for your sins! You must suffer! Penance is the only way to heaven!!!"
"We'll take you home! We know the WAY!!!" |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.60
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 8:20 pm: |
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Yes. I think it's inevitable. Eventually we're going to grow out of all this pretense and nonsense we put ourselves through. It'll probably be messy though. |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.60
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 8:27 pm: |
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But look at the world we live in now. We're consumer cattle for a corporate world, chasing products from one pasture to the next. Even our religions have turned out to be nothing more than marketing campaigns for products that never work as advertised. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 20
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 8:35 pm: |
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Can't we sue for false advertisement? |
jodymcgrody
Member
Username: jodymcgrody
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2005
Posted From: 66.82.9.60
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 8:39 pm: |
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In the meantime we live on a planet that has everything we need. And science instead of proving that God is dead has instead only discovered that reality is weirder than we could have ever imagined. Quantum physics now sounds more like Tibetan philosophy than old fashioned science. |
nabashalam
New member
Username: nabashalam
Post Number: 21
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 68.190.117.25
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 9:56 pm: |
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Yup...
I kinda liked it when you could tune up your car with a plug wrench, a screwdriver and a matchpack!
(for you youngins, you could gap your plugs and points perfectly with the cover flap of a ordinary pack of matches.)
Oops! I forgot! Cars dont have points anymore! Yeesh! |