| Author | Message | ||
     nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1869 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"I think it breaks down to this. The play in our heads (manufactured by the brain using data from our senses) is subject to the whims of our biochemistry. When that chemistry is changed we can have 'spiritual' experiences, 'alien abduction' experiences, and numerous other experiences all dependent on the particular chemical and our brains reaction to it. Imbalances or changes can also occur in our brains naturally through disease or aging effecting our cognitive functions which give us visions, hallucinations, and so forth. Many religious visions and so on are clearly 'hallucinations' of this type. 1. Supernaturalism is largely based on an incorrect interpretation of abnormal perceptions that have a natural biological causes. 2. Common sense and Occam's Razor point toward this natural (inside the brain) explanation for supernatural experience as opposed to the (outside of the brain) 'other dimensional' explanation."-TO I wanted to re-post this so I can read it as I address it...  | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1871 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
I agree with you the more I think about it. If you press button "A", certain chemicals are dumped and the same "movie" will play and there are several different ways this button can be pressed be it meditation, hallucinatory plants or sensory deprivation. Or even an unknown factor that brings about a "chemical imbalance". But who is to say what the balance is? Hancock speaks of the studies done with DMT, which by the way our pineal gland secrets when we get sunlight. Hey! Maybe thats why the Tribes dont allow wear of sunglasses!(whole nother topic,this gland is somewhat a mystery.A possible remnant from our extra-terrestial ancestors? ) This gland slows down as we age. One must be like a child? It's interesting that the "movie" these test subjects saw was pretty much the same and it mimicked the "alien abduction" experience exactly and that the "alien beings" all look the same and that they look just like the beings from cave paintings thousands of years old.(which could have been painted by ancient shamans on entheogens...)Do these stimuli light up parts of our brain not "normally" used? What is all that un-used brain we have for??? Studies show that the use of entheogenic plants have cured anxiety, depression and even schizophrenia! Some folks are naturally optimistic, some pessimistic and some the "middle of the road". Is this brain chemistry or DNA? Or is it the DNA causing the chemical levels? Maybe it's in our genes? Some have the "God Gene" and some dont. Are some of us the "Kenites" or the offspring of the fallen angels? Some who's DNA is more polluted throughout history than others by marrying outside our tribe? Others who are more purebred? Does this effect IQ? Charisma? Para-normal powers? Performing miracles? Un-explained luck? Good health? Critical thinking??? Path finding abilities??? Can these "movies" be used to learn from? Are they there and accessible for a purpose? Is our brain a library or a computer given to us as a learning tool? Are there certain books we should not read? If so, why were they put there? To test us? The proverbial tree of the knowledge of good and evil? What about the tree of everlasting life? Was the forbidden fruit actually Amanita muscaria? So yes you can reduce it all down to a box of wires and chemicals but how lame is that? (Message edited by nabashalam on December 18, 2007) | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 58 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.30 |
A box of wires and chemicals made out of what? This is a filtered rational argument based on a very limited scope of reality and experience. It's like arguing with Newton's physics and ignoring all that crazy quantum stuff. To quote the Matrix... "Stop trying to hit me and just hit me!" _Morpheus | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1872 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -Albert Einstein | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1874 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
OMG!!! I just finished listening to part 3 of Hancocks talks on Shamanism and he brought up the same thing I just did! DNA and the fallen angels and the analogy of books or secret knowledge locked in our DNA that is accessible through different portals or states of consciousness! Too weird! And yes Jody, I agree with you also. How can you properly paint a portrait of a beautiful woman with stick figures and one black crayon? One more thing. Is there only one reality? One plane of existence? One dimension? Think out of the Box!!!! | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2733 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
better yet, get out of the box entirely. if you have ever seen a contortionist get into a box you understand the need to get out. we get ourselves all crammed into our little box of ideas and then someone comes along with a valid idea and we have no place to put it. miracles are not miracles at all. most of us just have not learned how to do these things yet. we already have the technology to manipulate matter at the atomic level. DNA manipulation is already a reality. this of course means that viruses can be manipulated as well. the virus molecule looks and acts just like our DNA. so if we have the power to heal then we also have the power to cause disease just as easily. if we are bound by the idea of a historical christ these things will be seen as evil. the bible and many other ancient texts teach these things about healing and disease. the jesus spoken of in the bible is by no means unique. all that jesus did is also for us to do. it is our birthright as human beings. either that is true or we better figure which denomination that says they know the truth is correct and fast. good luck on that one. (Message edited by fatherofaking on December 18, 2007) | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3107 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.6 |
What is all that un-used brain we have for??? That and other things seem most likely to be evolutionary by-products, left-overs, some with unintentional or outmoded functions, others having no function in of themselves at all outside of their interaction with other systems. Or so it seems. So yes you can reduce it all down to a box of wires and chemicals but how lame is that? Well if its lame than it is. It is what it is and nothing else no matter how much we might want it to be something else. Accepting things 'as they are' is the most fundamental and necessary step in any kind of of 'awakening' spiritual or otherwise. Wouldn't you agree? On being in boxes ...we are all locked in little individual boxes called our skulls. All that we 'see and hear' is just the 'movie' our brains constructs from interpretations of the chemical and electrical signals coming from our sense organs. I was a little reluctant to recommend Hancock because I don't agree with his ideas about the reality of drug induced visions. It doesn't pan out. If these things were 'real' in any way we would live in a world where 'magic' would be an everyday reality amongst other things. Also there is the problem of contradicting 'realities' co-existing. Something that can't happen in a real world situation. Case in Point: Philip K. Dicks' religious experience. http://www.philipkdickfans.com/weirdo/weirdo1.htm Philip K. Dick experience begs many important questions about this subject not the least of which is why has religious experience been such a varied and contradictory phenomena in human history if there is some underlying truth to it? I think the evidence says we can change any and all aspects of the "movie" by changing the chemical/electrical properties of either the simulation engine itself, the sensory data, or the sensors themselves. Knowing this, when we make changes to those chemical/electrical properties we cannot, cannot, cannot, expect the simulation engine (within the brain), the data, or the data sensors to portray anything but a manufactured, artifical, and delusional picture and not a realistic and useful representation of the universe. | ||
| anon_e_mus Advanced Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 753 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.106.105.66 |
How does this have to do with the Twelve Tribes, again? | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3108 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.6 |
Well, isn't the whole premise of the 'twelve tribes' based on the assumption that supernatural beings exist and make their wishes known to human beings through dreams, vision, and inspiration? Wouldn't the knowledge that these dreams, visions, and inspirations are of natural, explainable, and non-supernatural origin be important to any conversation about them? | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1875 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Too bad Dick went insane! Musta suffered from a chemical imbalance huh? He had quite the creative brain tho... Dicks words describes a "go to sleep and forget about it" mentality, not an awakening! "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -Philip Dick How is that "spiritual"? Who is to say our brains are "set" at the proper "reality" setting anyway? What is the proper brain chemical balance? Would not this world be a planet of automatons if we all had the same "chemistry"? | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2734 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
...important to any conversation about them? while i do not agree with all of what you say TO, i would agree that we need to discuss these things. if we are not able to talk about the underlying reasons people end up in places like the TT, then a person is forever stuck with not knowing for sure if they should believe what they teach or not. the truth lies within, not in the institution of the TT or any other institution for that matter. if we are going to accept the "christian dogma" we had better figure out who is correct in a big hurry. the powers that be seem intent on using the fear of the apocalypse to gain power, and soon. the question becomes, are we willing to go to our death not sure whether the group we have aligned ourselves with is correct? it seems a little foolish to me. my son would ask: are you crazy? give up your life for something you are unsure is correct? i think there is a way to reconcile all of it but it does not include joining a cult. it starts within ourselves, not outside ourselves. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2736 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
New York Times Taking Science on Faith By PAUL DAVIES Published: November 24, 2007 excerpt: "Over the years I have often asked my physicist colleagues why the laws of physics are what they are. The answers vary from “that’s not a scientific question” to “nobody knows.” The favorite reply is, “There is no reason they are what they are — they just are.” The idea that the laws exist reasonlessly is deeply anti-rational. After all, the very essence of a scientific explanation of some phenomenon is that the world is ordered logically and that there are reasons things are as they are. If one traces these reasons all the way down to the bedrock of reality — the laws of physics — only to find that reason then deserts us, it makes a mockery of science. Can the mighty edifice of physical order we perceive in the world about us ultimately be rooted in reasonless absurdity? If so, then nature is a fiendishly clever bit of trickery: meaninglessness and absurdity somehow masquerading as ingenious order and rationality." www.nytimes.com | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3109 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.6 |
What is the proper brain chemical balance? That would be the chemical balance that allowed the species to interpret the universe correctly enough to survive and reproduce. (reproduction optional) foak, The Laws of Physics as defined by Science are observations about the behavior of objects in the universe. As science progresses and more knowledge is accumulated over time the secret of why gravity does what it does and other particulars about the "Laws of Physics" my be discovered. Or ... they may not, nevertheless the ability to predict behavior based on observation of past behavior isn't dependent on perfect knowledge. Davies doesn't communicate a true understanding of science in this article for whatever reason. | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 59 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 69.19.14.36 |
If I'm reading this thread correctly the issue is that all religious experience is subjective to the individual and can be reduced to nothing more than chemical reactions in ones brain. Again I think this is an argument that essentially ignores a large healthy portion of experience and reality to support its premise. It makes a convenient excuse to dismiss any and all religious/mystical experiences as being a mixture of the right amount of chemicals and therefore avoid uncomfortable questions that could arise. Reality just doesn't conform to this argument. Skeptics experience a skeptics life, and vis versa. We use all of our brain. That often used anonymous quote that we only use ten percent of our brain is false. What's more is that the more you use your brain the better it works, and vis versa. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2738 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
i apparently just do not understand your position TO. i get the impression that your position is quite limiting. it seems like you are saying that we cannot learn anything unless we are pouring over the scientific journals or doing the experiments ourselves. i can learn a great deal, and have learned a great deal about myself without the use of any scientific manual or journals. i do this by examining motive and cause and effect. i then make the appropriate changes based on the data gathered. as a result i am able to learn things easier and understand much more than i would be able to otherwise. if you call that science then so be it. i may have an erroneous view of what science is. i do not doubt that is possible. i certainly do not use scientific jargon much when i discuss these things with people. i will never abandon the idea that much can be learned from the ancient myths. it is just a different language than science employs. anyone would get the same results if they did what i do. this all may be nothing but a case of semantics. i get good results from the way i think and the actions i take. that being the case, it may be that we are just misunderstanding each other. | ||
| anon_e_mus Advanced Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 754 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.235.142.14 |
/me shakes his head | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2739 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
what is it anon? maybe we could set your mind at ease if you would say something. instead you make a statement that seems to be for the purpose of judging us. in a cowardly manner at that. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1876 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
FOAK, Why are you hell bent on giving up your life to something or someone? And who said any of us accepts the "Christian Dogma"??? Annie, Spiritual/mystical experiences can be replicated by entheogens! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithsPsilocybin.pdf http://www.csp.org/practices/entheogens/docs/young-good_friday.html http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/ | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2740 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
FOAK, Why are you hell bent on giving up your life to something or someone? sorry naba i think you just misunderstood. there are many that read these threads that are either still intent on giving up their lives to the TT, (truth seeker for one) and also their are those still stuck on "christian dogma" (anon and others). my life belongs to myself and everyone at the same time. we are all in this together. i think we ought to act like it. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1877 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
How ZEN can you get! | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2741 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
How ZEN can you get! sounds like a game. in four letters or less, How Zen can you get! I AM your turn. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1879 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
WE | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2742 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
O | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2743 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
that's great! you took the one i was going to use. you switched from us to we. no fair! i tried to post nothing but it wouldn't let me! this is the most fun i have had on factnet in a while. thanks for playing naba, this is great! | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1880 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
{:-) | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3110 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.12 |
If I'm reading this thread correctly the issue is that all religious experience is subjective to the individual and can be reduced to nothing more than chemical reactions in ones brain. Again I think this is an argument that essentially ignores a large healthy portion of experience and reality to support its premise. I think it more about the "non-reality" or illusionary nature of the "stories" that the brain makes up about the reality of experience rather than the fact that all experience is interpreted chemically. Also, I agree about the 10% of the brain business. As I understand it, that is a myth. What I am saying is that understanding the true nature of these visions, dreams, and inspirations, make them more useful and any harm from them can be marginalized. When these things are natural phenomena from which you can gain "insight" into the world around you rather than "infallible edicts of the gods" an individuals perspective on things can be very different. it seems like you are saying that we cannot learn anything unless we are pouring over the scientific journals or doing the experiments ourselves. No I'm talking about a fundamental attitude about it. There is a difference between understanding that "The Laws Of Physics" are based on observation about the behavior of objects in the universe. As more detailed observation is made possible by technology more layers will get pealed back and the underlying mechanics of those behaviors will become more apparent. Because science is revisable our understanding of why things behave the way the do will grow and change. I just think Davies tries to make something out of nothing with this article. It is all in how you approach mystery I guess. Mystery can be acknowledged as such and worked around until the mystery is solved. We may be able to describe the behavior of the universe and express it in The Laws of Physics without fully explaining (or even needing to) explain the underlying mechanisms that govern that behavior until that underlying mechanism is discovered. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2747 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
...until that underlying mechanism is discovered. i thought that was the premise of the article. that since the underlying mechanism is still unknown we must take it on faith that there is one. i do think he may take it a bit to far in saying that it leads to absurdity. your idea seems to be more to the point, that we just have yet to discover the underlying mechanism(s). the electric universe theory seems to hold out some hope of that happening. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1881 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
OK, suppose the "electric universe" is proven to be the "mechanism"? That still leaves us with the same question of the ages! Who's the Master electrician? Who or what is the source or maker of the mechanism and what is our purpose or part in the "Big Picture" if any? The endless question of who's the "maker of the maker"...What came first, the chicken or the egg? Where does outer space end? Whats on the other side of that end? | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2748 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
That still leaves us with the same question of the ages! Who's the Master electrician? yes naba the question of the ages does still exist without an answer. where did the plasma originate? i do not have the answer, and i have yet to hear an answer from anyone in the field of science. i do think that the theory goes along way to explaining religion however. there is clear evidence that many of the symbols of religion were created from direct observation of the sky during the paleolithic to the neolithic period. the video thunderbolts of the gods establishes this as fact. the alien pictures may be drug induced, as you are already aware. the rest of the questions will just have to wait. it is not what we would like of course, but it is what it is. one of my questions is; are the balls of light that have been observed during the creation of crop circles electrical discharges of some kind? the theory postulates that these centers of electrically charged plasma create order out of chaos. if they create entire galaxies, why not crop circles? | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1882 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Theres nothing new under the sun! The visions, dreams, and inspirations of men, or the chemically induced revelations have been the same throughout the ages. Our brains have not changed or evolved physically. This is why there is the recurring themes and similarities of myths and religions around the world! So we go back once again to(if you have the mind to  ) the question of why our brains work the way they do and was there a creator of this "mechanism"? Is it just a mechanism for survival like TO says? "A chemical balance that allowed the species to interpret the universe correctly enough to survive and reproduce." How would this balance just happen? Just by chance it aligns with the needs for survival of the species on this planet like when the birds know when to migrate??? But arent these animal instincts triggered by physical stimuli? Maybe thats why theres such an increase of depression and ADD in children now a days! There's stimuli in the world (call it bad, wrong, evil or just circumstances) that is causing the brain to secret these chemicals and is playing the "somethings not right and I dont like it" movie!!! | ||
| seamus New member Username: seamus Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 142.161.230.159 |
The book by Lynn Grabhorn "Dear GOD! What Is Happening to Us?" has a great explanation of the origin of all. She said the nothing at the beginning started to oscillate. As it oscillated it began to throw off sparks (somethings). These became our "gods and devils". I don't agree with her interpretation of later events, but I think it has to do with controllers vs non-controllers, wrt who will win. science can't address this issue since it's not examinable by scientific method. It was a historical event, subject to historical examination, not scientific. just some thoughts... -s (Message edited by seamus on December 20, 2007) | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3111 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.16 |
i thought that was the premise of the article. that since the underlying mechanism is still unknown we must take it on faith that there is one. There is nothing that says there must be one and one isn't required to use the "law" to predict the future behavior of an object. That still leaves us with the same question of the ages! Who's the Master electrician? I think the answer is there doesn't have to be one. The seeming requirement for one is entirely one we've made up. I just don't think its the right question to ask. The proper question is never "who?" or "why?", but "how?" How does it work? Realizing of course that the scale we are impossibly locked into prevents us from ever being able to comprehend the "whole" of the universe. I mean ... how can we even measure electrical charge across bodies in space like the planets? | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1884 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
We might use all of our brain but what is it's potential? http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/how.html | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3112 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.24 |
We might use all of our brain but what is it's potential? There again, doesn't such a question have the problem of perspective and scale? The human brain is perhaps the most complex thing in the universe. To say we can fully understand or fully comprehend its limits implies that we can contain the required dataset (if we acquired it) within the object of study. It seems a logical/mathematical impossibility. There can only be a progress act of discovery of that potential and limits that continues on indefinitely. Absolute knowledge about ourselves or the universe is simply a physical and logical impossibility. This is another thing that highlights the absurdity of human concepts of creator gods and what their wishes may or may not be. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1888 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
We all are "Gods"! We just aint "Omniscient" yet... That would be pretty lame too aye? | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2753 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
The human brain is perhaps the most complex thing in the universe. Absolute knowledge about ourselves or the universe is simply a physical and logical impossibility. this sounds like a contradiction? | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3113 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.24 |
That would be pretty lame too aye? That and just wishful thinking as well. this sounds like a contradiction? How so? The concepts of Scale and limited Datasets seems to indicate that without the proper scale where a large enough dataset can be gathered one cannot expect to comprehend the meta-set of data that is the universe. The human brain doesn't have the storage or compute power necessary to backward engineer itself (so to speak) much less the universe containing that brain. There is no contradiction that I can see. I think the answers to the ultimate questions we ask ourselves are simple. It is our dislike of the answers that cause the problems and not the answers themselves. 1. Who am I? Nothing. 2. Where did I come from? Out of nothing. 3. Where am I going? Into nothing. 4. Are there any other options? No. 5. Is that ok? Yes. 6. What is important? Now, because there is nothing else. Its a Zen thing. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2754 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
The human brain doesn't have the storage or compute power necessary to backward engineer itself (so to speak) much less the universe containing that brain. the word on the street (internet) is that with the help of technology that will soon change. they (?) say computers (if they are still called that in 10yrs)connected to the brain will solve that problem. according to what i have been learning we will all be connected on the level of thought. if there is such a thing is the Akashic records (all accumulated knowledge) we will be tapped into it. the electric universe theory seems to be imply that there is such a thing as the Akashic records. | ||
| trainedobserver Senior Member Username: trainedobserver Post Number: 3114 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 198.49.119.26 |
the word on the street (internet) is that with the help of technology that will soon change. I think the very nature of the thing that prevents it from being. Augmenting ourselves or our "thinking" won't change the fundamental nature of the problem. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2763 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
and now a word from our sponsor. Achmed the Dead Terrorist by Jeff Dunham | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1890 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
SILENCE!!! I KILL YOU!!!  This conversation sort of reminded me of a great "Outer Limits" episode... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream_of_Consciousness_%28The_Outer_Limits%29 | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1896 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
A little way out there but I believe theres some truth hidden in his words... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhhSH7ctj8s&feature=related | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1897 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
now, after listening to that, you have to ask yourself is the "serpent" good or evil! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_%28symbolism%29 The engrained Christian Mythology of the west will surely have you in a struggle with this one.... | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1898 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5789/serpent.htm | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1899 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
So...T.O. We use all of our brain but what about our DNA???? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_DNA | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1900 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
FOAK!!! Your gonna love this!!! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7100351501027624391 | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1901 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
BTW... HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!! | ||
| anon_e_mus Advanced Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 755 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.106.105.66 |
"what is it anon? maybe we could set your mind at ease if you would say something. instead you make a statement that seems to be for the purpose of judging us. in a cowardly manner at that." Well, to answer your question, FoaK, this board seems to have lost it's drive and purpose. In the beginning of my being here, what? Two or three years, now? There was a great deal of activity on it by current and former members (for the most part) engaging in entlightening debate and dialogue over the actual practices and history of the TT's. Believe it or not, that strengthened me greatly, to have the courage and background information necessary to understand what was and is still happening behind the scenes, there. (Although I have family, there, I am still an outsider and not privy to what goes on.) I had enough background information on the group to be more relevant to my family who is still in there. To make a long story short, we seem to have degraded into a "dog chasing his tail" -type argument over the very validity and existance of God Himself! Now, if you believe in the Devil, at all? I'm sure he'd be very pleased that the focus is OFF OF THE TT'S! I, for one, am not. I guess, if God doesn't exist, then neither to the TT's in theory, right? The problem is that belief in God is a step of faith, a thing that men have been arguing over for thousands of years. So? I guess if you want to call faith in God a kind of cult? You can start a separate board for Him and rail against Him and every person in the world who has any degree of faith in whatever. Me? That's why I roll my eyes. The TT's board has lost it's way IMO. Personally, I can report tremendous inroads to my family. Perhaps, in the coming year or so, I may be able to give you all more information, which, if I am able to, would shock you, I'm sure as it is probable that you know me and definite that you know my family. I've said too much. Any chance of saving this board? Any chance of making this a place that David Derush would feel is important enough and contraversial enough to come back to post his ridiculously long posts on? Merry Christmas. Anon | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2788 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
this board seems to have lost it's drive and purpose well anon, who is it that runs these TT threads? is it not people like yourself? if you are not happy with the subject matter then start a subject of your own. i would say that what it is lacking in regard to direct discussion about the TT, is new people, or perhaps the return of some of the old members. naba and myself no longer have the same connection we once had. we have moved on with our lives. it seems that many others have done the same. i would imagine that people like naba and myself stick around for 2 reasons. 1. because we still enjoy sharing what we are learning, and what we have come to believe. 2. because we would like to think that if new people do come along we can help them out. we just had someone new recently but he/she seems to have disappeared for the time being. the new people should set the tone for what is discussed through the questions they may have. i for one do not try and direct a conversation with new folks because i know that i am not in the same place they are in. i simply try and answer their questions the best i can. i know from my interaction with naba here that he is concerned about the direction that threads take here. case in point is his being upset over what happened to the songs thread. not a very important thread i know, but it makes my point. Now, if you believe in the Devil, at all? as i am sure you are aware i have moved on from my christian beliefs. what others think of that is of little concern to me. the only interest i have in talking to others about the TT is to maybe help them be able to move on from what may have caused them to be part of a cult. i do not see a reason to discuss the TT if there is not someone expressing a need to do so as well. i see no point. i am happy to discuss them with anyone who is wanting to do so however. Personally, I can report tremendous inroads to my family. that is great news anon. it is apparent that you have gained a great deal from the discussions here. i am sorry if that is no longer the case. i will say it again, maybe you need to take some initiative of your own regarding the problem. Me? That's why I roll my eyes. The TT's board has lost it's way IMO | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2789 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
your opinion is noted. what i do not understand is why you are so passive about things here if you hold such an opinion. why not make an effort to talk about the things you are concerned about more often? for myself or naba to continue to repeat our own experiences over and over again for no apparent reason other than so as not to divert the subject matter from the TT seems rather pointless. perhaps you would rather we leave the board altogether, rather than to discuss some other subject? Any chance of saving this board? i guess if you think it needs saving then maybe you could take a step in that direction? i feel like i keep repeating myself here. i think by now you should be getting my point. Any chance of making this a place that David Derush would feel is important enough and contraversial enough to come back to post his ridiculously long posts on? what is it that you think would bring him back? perhaps some unfounded gossip? or worse outright slander? if he is not posting here it is not because of any lack of discussion about them. there has been plenty in the last few months. the next question would be, why would you want him back? do you think that those that are here are dishonest about what we say about the TT and need to be kept in line? those of us who have been here as long as we have are very familiar with the TT rhetoric. as you know that is what david derush always posted. rarely could we get an opinion of his own out of him. anyone can read the things he posted for themselves on their website. those that he has had personal contact with know what his opinions are as well. one of the strongest of those opinions was that spending time on these threads would lead us to hell. there are others that are even worse than that. some of which are just plain delusional. he uses the same tactic that all cults use, divide and conquer. get them away from the critiques so that he has free reign to push himself on you. i for one see no reason to continue to subject myself or anyone else to that kind of abuse any longer. i have noticed that truth seeker has all but disappeared from these threads. the last time she was here she was asking about what she would have to do with her pets if she were to join. i know that she has had much personal contact with david derush in the past. i know this because i too have had personal contact with her in the past. that ended when i started to be more vocal about my opinion of certain things. it seems as if she may be succumbing to his methods. she may have already joined them. i hope what i have shared has helped anon. feel free to respond with any questions or opinions you may have. it seems that silence has not helped to alleviate your concerns. | ||
| jodymcgrody Member Username: jodymcgrody Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 66.82.9.110 |
The complete absence of anyone from the TwelveTribes Community of Believers on this forum is itself a direct and profound statement about who they claim to be and who they really are. If you had the truth, the message to change the world, to change the course of human kind from one of self destruction into one of fulfillment and ultimate purpose wouldn't you be compelled, even driven to present that truth anywhere and everywhere you possibly could? And if it were the truth, would you shirk from arguing with a few fools knowing that the truth in your argument will be seen by far, far more people than the few blind ones who opposed you? Iron sharpens iron. Iron doesn't sharpen a Twinkie (yes, I'm talking about that yellow nasty snack food thing designed to survive a nuclear holocaust, even after its creators have been vaporized into radioactive dust). If you think you have iron why would you be afraid to put it to the test? But calling a Twinkie "iron" and then avoiding every situation that might prove otherwise doesn't make it any less a Twinkie. I'd love to be proven a blind fool and discover that I'm only holding a Twinkie, because truth means more to me than self deception. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2793 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
well said jody. over the centuries there have been what are called mystery schools. these schools have been said to have been the keepers of divine truths. people were initiated into these schools through secret rituals and charged by oaths to keep the secrets they were taught. it is said that they kept these secrets from those considered to be the profane. the profane being those that would not understand this knowledge or use the knowledge to do harm rather than good. some even say the the essenes were one of these groups and that jesus was a member. it is interesting to note in this context that jesus indeed taught in parables and allegory. he is quoted as saying often that only those with ears to hear and eyes to see would understand. it is also said that he taught the true meaning of these allegories and parables to his own disciples and no one else. there is a group in existence today that is well known as a secret society, in the same vein as the mystery schools. they clearly have understanding that ordinary men do not have. they are said to be 1.5 million strong world wide. these numbers have dwindled considerably since the veterans of the two world wars are about gone. i do think that is about to change soon however. they are getting more public recognition since the inception of the internet. it is quite something to follow and learn about. this group is of course the freemasons. they too charge there members with oaths to keep their secrets from the profane. while i prefer to stay free (meaning i do not like the idea of taking oaths) while i learn these secrets, there may be reason for some to become members. while most prefer to eat their twinkies, there are indeed those that are sharpening their swords in secret and yet, right in plain site of the twinkie eaters. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1906 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Foak, En garde! You made some great points! Annie, As Foak asked, whats stopping you from getting off you twinkie eatin butt and taking some initiative? It gets so stale around here we who are trying to keep the conversation lively get tired ourselves with having to come up with "inflammatory threads"! And if you think that I might be questioning the validity of "God", I am not. What I am questioning is the validity of mans explanation of "Him"! Oh! And by the way, the TTs do exist but they sure as hell arent who they claim to be and neither is there "God"!!! I do have one question for you. Explain to me the difference between faith and delusion. http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/?page_id=259 | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1907 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Foak, En garde! You made some great points! Annie, As Foak asked, whats stopping you from getting off you twinkie eatin butt and taking some initiative? It gets so stale around here we who are trying to keep the conversation lively get tired ourselves with having to come up with "inflammatory threads"! And if you think that I might be questioning the validity of "God", I am not. What I am questioning is the validity of mans explanation of "Him"! Oh! And by the way, the TTs do exist but they sure as hell arent who they claim to be and neither is there "God"!!! I do have one question for you. Explain to me the difference between faith and delusion. This fella takes the words right out of my mouth... http://www.celticbear.com/weblog/?page_id=259 | ||
| anon_e_mus Advanced Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 756 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 70.106.105.66 |
Foak, Thanks for your serious and thought provoking response. I have some comments, but it is getting late, so tomorrow, perhpas. Just one quick point, however. What I meant about getting DD back here was not encourage the abusive part of his rantings, but to rattle him. When people, either former members or family of members, like myself, make the claims we did of sexual abuse, financial impropriety, hypocracy (sp?), racism (the whole Chammite thread), and the like. (My next accusation will be of elders living high on the hog, but that's later. When we talk about these things, David Derush and others are attracted to this board like sharks seeking to defend their brethren. Believe me, I don't enjoy the liturgy that comes out of DD's keyboard, but every once in awhile he comes out with a genuine tone of vulnerability and you see the real DD inside. Honestly speaking, the TT's have not been good for my family, surprisingly enough. You'd think the would be a good arena to go to heal. Instead, if you demonstrate any individuality or struggle, especially with the leadership, you are OUT. So? As I said in the beginning, only those who are good at keeping a phoney face thrive. Eventually, however, like my family, they crack. Doubts come in, the pressures of living are difficult enough. Add to that the dysfunction that goes on in the TT's and families EXPLODE under the pressure of that dysfuntion. After all, you can't surpress the human nature and the truth forever. I'll respond more tomorrow. Good night. NOTE TO DAVID: Regarding faith vs. fantasty or whatever that is... that's just the thing I'm not interested in discussing. I'm here because I have family in the TT's who are now, I find out, in a very bad, if not deadly place. The more we expose of the TT's the more difficult it will be for them to hide. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1910 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Annie, You have been a healing hand when I needed it. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I am here for you in anyway I can. Yes I will try and stay on track and help educate the public of this insidious and destructive group. Its really not all that hard! We have the truth and the facts to back us up! Yes, one aspect of the TT that will get more deadly is the aging of their population. The older members will need more real medical help and not just some herbs and tinctures. Their "witch doctors" will have some genuine special medical needs that they will not be able to meet and people will experience unnecessary early deaths. This has happened too many times already. So, for the moment, I will shy away from exposing the whole concept of religions and focus on the urgent need of taking apart the tribes. One piece at a time.... One thing that has come to my mind is that how similar they are to the "Mother Harlot" that they so vehemently spit upon. The Catholic Church. I see the TT as being the same church but in a different pew! The have so many similarities! Rituals, pride, ex-communications, customs, dress, claim to exclusivity and YES! Clergy/Laity! I could go on... Its just so ironic but they are so blind they dont see it!!! | ||
| anon_e_mus Advanced Member Username: anon_e_mus Post Number: 757 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 71.168.197.7 |
Thank you David... When you're on, you're so on.. You are gifted. | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1914 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
Gift or rather a "Divine Favor"! | ||
| nabashalam New member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
DUE TO A RECENT CRASH, ALMOST ALL OF OUR USER ACCOUNTS HAVE BEEN TEMPORARILY DELETED. THEY WILL BE RESTORED IN THE NEAR FUTURE. BUT UNTIL THAT TIME YOU MAY REREGISTER IN ORDER TO POST, USING YOUR ORIGINAL USER NAME AND PASSWORD. SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE. WHEN YOU REGISTER YOU WILL BE IMMEDIATELY ABLE TO POST. Have a safe, healthy and Happy New Year to come!!!! Let the discussion continue!!! |
