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the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 983
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 11:35 am: | 
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One of my flavorite quotes from the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism is 1 Corinthians 13:8. Allow me to quote.
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be
knowledge, it shall vanish away." 1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV)
Have 'tongues' ceased? hehehehehehehehe forgive me. I can think of nothing better than for 'tongues' to cease. Especially when that certain someone rolls her eyes skyward and reminds me that she told me so. Do you realize if 'tongues' ceased there would be no cell phone companies? Can you imagine sitting around all afternoon in the recliner watching tv without anyone nagging you to do this or do that? Shim would be da days!!
Laughably, the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism wants to highjack the word 'tongues,' as used here, to mean faked infantile gibberish. |
dobman53
Intermediate Member
Username: dobman53
Post Number: 242
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.142.224.26
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 12:57 am: |
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The tongues that Mark, Matthew, Luke, and Peter commonly used to speak to thoughs that didn't speak Hebrew ceased 2000 years ago. We have had bableing idiots since about 1830, give or take a year or two. It's funny how such idiots have never realised this. I guess it's because they never could figure out what each of them was trying to say, and it some how got lost in the translation. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1743
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.206
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 1:27 am: |
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One of my favorite quotes from the Dispensationalist is 1 Corinthians 13:10-13
"But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, and love, these trhee, but the greatest of these is love.
If the Gifts of Tongues or Languages has passed away or not passed away is not the real question.
The real question is have the sign Gifts of the Holy Spirit talked about in 1 Corinthians 12-14
ceased at 70 AD.
Even the greatest modern day Dispensationalist, John MacArther in his commentary can't say that thats what these Scriptures mean conclusively.
From vs. 12 the indication is that we are talking about when we know in full, basically, when we are in heaven.
That Scripture is as close as a Dispensationalist can come, and Ryrie, (another Dispensationalist), can't say that the Scripture means what they would like it to mean. That's because it doesn't mean that!
...& then where is LOVE? They mock for there is none in Dispensationalism. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 852
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 1:38 am: |
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We have had bableing idiots since about 1830, give or take a year or two. It's funny how such idiots have never realised this.
It is funny how babbling idiots don't realize they are babbling. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 991
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 7:13 am: |
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Mr. Easeltine:
Any chance you might know what a dispensationalist is? The problem with the scripture you quote is the fact you and your religion have redefined the word 'tongues' to mean faked infantile gibberish. 'Tongues' as used in this passage means spoken language. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1746
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 2:23 pm: |
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TATM,
Would you please show me any Pentecostal source, via the Internet, or a book, that defines it as "faked infantile gibberish"?
Would you please show me any Pentecostal source that states that the 'Tongues' in these passages are never spoken languages, especially the Gift of Languages with the Gift of Interpretation.
The idea of the prayer language can be a spoken language, just a person praying in another language that they don't know, it's unknown to them. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1747
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 2:27 pm: |
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Cessationist is really what I should be saying, a Dispensationalist isn't quite the same thing. A Dispensationalist is not always a Cessationaist.
Thank you for correcting me. |
dobman53
Intermediate Member
Username: dobman53
Post Number: 247
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.142.224.26
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 2:44 pm: |
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I find it strange that certain so called Men of great biblical knowledge. Have a way of slipping there own, new made up terms amongst bible passages. Lets take this word DISPENSATIONALIST. MY oh MY, sounds real holy doen't it. Then they Make up the dispensationalist list of nine truths. Wait a minute I thought there were ten commandments. OH NO the dispensational one cries. Nine is the holy number he now commands. OH OH forgive me wise one please don't mark me as one of the non dispensationalist. OKAY: (he does command) you are forgiven, go and sin no more. WOOO WEEE I do declare I almost got dispensationalized, and you know what that could entale. I could have been stripped of the utterance or something. Praise the the disponsational one I'm free at last of all my sins. AHH let me see here I think I'll give it a whurl her. UMMA BABBA LABBA YAMMA (OSAMA BINLADIN) BABBA. Oh how I love myself, and just think how holy I must appear amongst my dispensationalist. |
dobman53
Intermediate Member
Username: dobman53
Post Number: 250
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.142.224.26
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 4:13 pm: |
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Can not the tongue talkers ever undestand. This unknown tonge was a language that all understood. Why do you think thousands were saved by it. When the apostles spoke in gods language all understood. Picture it like this a frenchman said to the German I thought these men were fron Gallalie, how is it that they speak french. The German says French their speaking in German. This is a miracle lets join this group. The part of one interprator was for thoughs who preached yet never new Jesus. Should they go to a forien land they were not to have multiple interprator for it would slow things down so much those in attendance would soon loose interest. I know you are all not going to except this for you all believe you have a gift, and of course you will all say you have seen the miracle come over people. I was born into the Penticastal Church. Oh of course now you'll all speak that same old dribble about the falling away and such. Your eyes have ben blinded you just can't believe God does not put on a sunday afternoon preformance, each and every sunday. You should walk in faith not lead by sight. If your thinking your special, remember were all Gods children were all special. Is he going to give you all a bunch of candy and me none. Is he only going to speak to you and me never. How about speaking to our hearts. is your heart all that much finer than mine. I know I have poked fun at all of you. I am sorry I just can't help it. When I see good folks holding themselves up so high I can't help but to cut them down. Nimrod built himself a tower, are you now doing the same with your tongues. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1749
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 6:59 pm: |
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You have a spirit of mockery. |
bear
Senior Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.236.150.133
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 9:35 pm: |
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Um...what is a spirt of mockery?
Where do we find this in scripture?
Why is everything a "spirit of..." in P/C circles?
It should be noted that no theologian, outside of P/C circles, believes that the tongues spoken in Acts 2 where different than those spoken later.
I say this because I used to teach that there are three different examples of tongues in scripture.
1. Acts 2: When everyone heard in their own language. It was taught that the miracle was the people hearing.
2. Private prayer language
3. Tongues and interpretation.
A closer look at the text shows that there is one purpose.
Look, Jack Hayford, your pastor, is a great man and teacher, but remember, he is Pentecostal, and as such, discredits all positions that differ from this established belief system.
(Message edited by bear on December 18, 2007) |
bear
Senior Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 1010
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.236.150.133
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 9:41 pm: |
|
I posted this on two other threads, and it is fitting here:
In a massive study of tongue speaking from a linguistic perspective by Professor William J. Samarin of the University of Toronto's Department of Linguistics, published after more than a decade of careful research, he rejected the view that glossolalia is xenoglossia, i.e. some foreign language that could be understood by another person who knew that language. Professor Samarin concluded that glossolalia is a “pseudo-language.” He defined glossolalia as “unintelligible babbling speech that exhibits superficial phonological similarity to language, without having consistent syntagmatic structure and that is not systematically derived from or related to known language.” (William J. Samarin, “Variation and Variables in Religious Glossolalia,” Language in Society, ed. Dell Haymes, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1972 pages. 121-130)
Felicitas D. Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, engaged in a study of various English, Spanish and Mayan speaking Pentecostal communities in the United States and Mexico. She compared tape recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan as well. She published her results in 1972 in an extensive monograph (Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia by Felecitas D. Goodman, University of Chicago Press, 1972).
Felecitas Goodman concludes that “when all features of speaking in tongues were taken into consideration, which is the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and its suprasegmental elements (namely, rhythm, accent, and especially overall intonation), she concluded that there is no distinction in tongues between Christians and the followers of non-Christian (pagan) religions. Goodman in the prestigious Encyclopaedia of Religion (1987) wrote the “association between trance and glossolalia is now accepted by many researchers as a correct assumption”. Goodman also concludes that glossolalia “is, actually, a learned behaviour, learned either unawarely or, sometimes consciously.” Others have previously pointed out that direct instruction is given on how to “speak in tongues,” ie. how to engage in glossolalia. In fact, it has been found that the “speaking in tongues” practiced in Christian churches and by individual Christians is identical to the chanting language of those who practice voodoo on the darkest continents of this world. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1751
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 10:39 pm: |
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Bear come on - Are you reading these nuts?
1st quote
"We have had bableing idiots..."
another quote from the same guy
"YOU-yaya GOTTA-yaya BE-yaya OUT OF-yaya YOUR-yaya MINDS-yaya YOUR-yaya ABUNCHA-yaya CRAZY-yaya FOOLS-yaya CAN-yaya EYE-yaya GETTA-yaya BIG-yaya AMEN-yaya ON-yaya THAT-yaya ONE-yaya (I don't no how to interpate can anyone help a brother out)"
another quote against TATM - the other side of the coin
"Praise the lord for he has sent me a messenger from God. Wait a minute I'm not supposed to bow down before angels. Sorry buddy you must have gotten mixed up with your deliveries. you need to go up three clicks"
another quote, again against TATM:
"find it strange that certain so called Men of great biblical knowledge. Have a way of slipping there own, new made up terms amongst bible passages. Lets take this word DISPENSATIONALIST. MY oh MY, sounds real holy doen't it. Then they Make up the dispensationalist list of nine truths. Wait a minute I thought there were ten commandments. OH NO the dispensational one cries. Nine is the holy number he now commands. OH OH forgive me wise one please don't mark me as one of the non dispensationalist. OKAY: (he does command) you are forgiven, go and sin no more. WOOO WEEE I do declare I almost got dispensationalized, and you know what that could entale. I could have been stripped of the utterance or something. Praise the the disponsational one I'm free at last of all my sins. AHH let me see here I think I'll give it a whurl her. UMMA BABBA LABBA YAMMA (OSAMA BINLADIN) BABBA. Oh how I love myself, and just think how holy I must appear amongst my dispensationalist."
Then back again against Pent.
The quote above the statement I made.
This didn't have anything to do with my viewpoint of Pentecostalism, this had to do with my reaction to a certifiable NUT! lol |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1752
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.152
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 11:15 pm: |
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Bear,
I think that you need to read these people before you join their bandwagon...because even though I disagree with you, you have never yaba daba dued it against Pentecostals in the past.
Are you agreeing with mocking Pentecostals in this style?
And by the way, "...Look, Jack Hayford, your pastor, is a great man and teacher, but remember, he is Pentecostal, and as such, discredits all positions that differ from this established belief system."
Jack Hayford has not been Pastor of Church on the Way for about 4 years, Bear. Jack Hayford is the President of Foursquare and Kings Seminary. The current Pastor is Jim Toll.
Just for the record:
There are many Fundamentalists that would greatly disagree with your comment about Jack Hayford. Dr. Dobson most definitly would have a real problem with it.
I mean, I can hardly even bring myself to say this to you....when Pastor Hayford was pastor at The Church on the Way he even allowed Pastor John MacArthur to preach there. There kids went to the same school with each other, (Los Angeles Baptist), and were friends with each other. I wasn't going there at the time...but I would have hit the door...lol
Do you remember Promise Keepers? You had 1-1.4 million people at the Washington Mall on
October 4, 1997, Jack Hayford was the main speaker and there were 35% Baptist in the crowd.
What you are saying is just not historically accurate, and I don't really even have to defend him. The only people that discredits people from their established belief systems are the people mocking others with yaba daba du.
This attack on Pentecostalism was not the goal of CRI by Dr. Walter Martin, and was not attacked by Josh McDowell/Stewart in Handbook of Today's Religions. This attack on Pentecostalism began with Hank H.'s attacks on fringe Word/Faith by taking a statement here and a statement there, and John M. Charismatic Chaos attacks on the Laughing Movement. The attacks just keep getting worse and worse.
Yaba daba du, and also the way the person attacked Dispensationalism is what I am calling a spirit of mockery...and I have never seen you do this. |
dobman53
Intermediate Member
Username: dobman53
Post Number: 253
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.142.224.26
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 11:29 pm: |
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Dear Tongue Talkers: I do appologise for my attempt's to poke fun. I was born into the Assembly of God.
Try as I have on many occassions to have close ones lift their heads up out of the fog. They refuse to listen
Oh I've tried on many occasions to prove to loved ones scripturaly of their folly. But to on avail.
On each attempt they are forever misguided.
I've even gone so fare as to say why not record your tongues, as well as the enterpretation's to make a dictionary. then we all could understand.
Of course such a thought as that would only upset them further. As it probably does you now.
If you were honest with yourself, and such an attempt of which I spoke was made. All your tongues would come crashing down about you.
My grandfather was a minister with the Assembly of God. He would speak with tongues at all his services. Though at Thankgiving, Christmas, Easter, makes no difference he never spoke a tongue once.
Here again my attempts at commedy were only in jest. We all know God loves us all. Me as well as you.
So again I ask your foregivness my attempts were only a ploy to open your eye's.
P.S. think about that dictionary |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1753
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.152
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 1:34 am: |
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Dobman,
Are you still a Christian? |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 871
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 1:52 am: |
|
Thanks for the apology dobman. I like to laugh at myself now and then and I find some of your stuff humuorous, and some of it insulting, but not offensive to me. I'm slowly learning quite a bit about a different view on tongues than I hold to and despite all of the crap that gets thrown around, a lot of good information and insight is there too.
The biggest problem with getting my eyes opened is that what I have seen on factnet is many of the people I have discussed things with that are not tongue talkers have consistently done the very thing you accuse us of doing. Insults, name calling, not so subtle labels designed only to inflame, acting high minded as if we are idiots and know nothing. You won't get that from me, and I don't feel I ought to get that from them, my brothers often, and that is what puzzles me.
To me, that's eye opening because I didn't know this topic would illicite this kind of thing amongst Christians. Maybe the internet brings out the worst in some of us because of it's supposed annonymity. |
dobman53
Intermediate Member
Username: dobman53
Post Number: 258
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.142.224.26
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 6:08 pm: |
|
xman3: easeltine: Yes I am still Chistian. Though with my playing the parts I do, you yourselfs would probably never think it so!
With me acting as I have, It was not done with bad thoughts towards you or any. My aim was only at this so called gift of the utterance!
Believe me when I say. I have no desire to insult you, neither would I wish any harm. As for me I'm basically a happy go lucky sorta guy.
I love my family. Thoughs in my family that speak in tongue's, as much as thoughs who don't!
Could I ask just one thing from you. I mentioned a dictionary of the utterance. Mentioning about the recording of tongue's, and recording the interpratation. Then matching them up.
I have never ben able to get an answer of this. It's allway's left those that talk in tongues in an uproar. At least all in my family that is.
Beings it's in annonymity whats your thoughts. |
dobman53
Intermediate Member
Username: dobman53
Post Number: 259
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.142.224.26
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 6:29 pm: |
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xmann3: easeltine: I have a post on this page up above. DEC 18 4:13PM I stated my take on tongues with no jest. could we debate? It might enlighten both!! DOBMAN |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1754
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 7:12 pm: |
|
Your job Xman:
Any person that says:
"We have had bableing idiots..."
"YOU-yaya GOTTA-yaya BE-yaya OUT OF-yaya YOUR-yaya MINDS-yaya YOUR-yaya ABUNCHA-yaya CRAZY-yaya FOOLS-yaya CAN-yaya EYE-yaya GETTA-yaya BIG-yaya AMEN-yaya ON-yaya THAT-yaya ONE-yaya (I don't no how to interpate can anyone help a brother out)"
IS TOO MUCH FOR ME...the fruits of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance, and faith may be tempted beyond my capacity.
Thank you |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Senior Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 8:45 pm: |
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Mr. Easeltine:
Quoting: "TATM,
Would you please show me any Pentecostal source, via the Internet, or a book, that defines it as "faked infantile gibberish"?
Would you please show me any Pentecostal source that states that the 'Tongues' in these passages are never spoken languages, especially the Gift of Languages with the Gift of Interpretation.
The idea of the prayer language can be a spoken language, just a person praying in another language that they don't know, it's unknown to them."
End quote.
Does a con-man walk around the street with a sign on declaring him(her)self a con-man? |
dobman53
Intermediate Member
Username: dobman53
Post Number: 265
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.142.224.26
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 10:33 pm: |
|
One thing I have a hard time with these talkers for God is.
How did it come to pass that 50 days after Jesus died. this massive multitude of people heard a spew of jiberish and 3000 got saved. I'm amazed you could thing God would work like that
Should you now all take a trip to China rent an auditorium fill it full. Step out on the stage, and give them an earfull of Jiberish.
Do you think they will rush the stage for lets say, your literature. should you bring thousands upon thousands of your tracts, to pass out to this mobb you envision?
Hay you yourselves say what was done in the past shall never end when it comes to tongues.
I hope you don't pass the plate before you give them the utterance. Cause if you do they might just rush the stage, but the'll not be seeking you literature. If you know what I mean.
Just to play it safe once you get to china that is. place an offering plate before your feet out at one of their open air markets. Twist your tongue up good and tight and give her a whirl.
Should you look down at your feet, and find your offering plate empty. March yourself to the nearest airport offering plate in hand an fly home.
Just a little hint no jiberish on the plain they might think your speaking Arabic. I mean you don't want to get strip searched now do ya!! |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1755
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.190
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 1:33 am: |
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Act 2:4 - "All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them."
Ok, I will go over this. This is not thought of as jiberish, or giberish, (spelling dependent upon the mocker on these threads), rather it is defined as LANGUAGES by the following Pentecostalish teachers and preachers.
PLEASE NOTE: THESE ARE DIRECT QUOTES FROM THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES.
A. Kenneth Hagin - Diverse kinds of tongues is supernatural utterance by the Holy Spirit in languages never learned by the speaker, nor understood by the mind of the speaker, nor necessarily always understood by the hearer. Speaking with tongues has nothing to do with the mind or intellect of man. It is a vocal miracle.
B. Dick Iverson, (Bible Temple in Portland if my memory serves me - He is one of the editors in the Spirit Filled Bible of Jack Hayford's - no I don't have one lol) - The gift of tongues is the God-given enablement to communicate in a language one does not know. This is a "manifestation of the Spirit" and not human ability. It has absolutely nothing to do with natural ability, eloquence of speech or a new sanctified way of talking. The gift of tonges is a supernatural manifestation or expression of the Holy Spirit through a person's speech organs. It is a direct manifestation of the miraculous.
C. Derek Prince - The "gift of tongues" is the supernatural ability given to a believer by the Holy Spirit to speak in a language not understood by the speaker. Each believer has the potential to speak in a language unkown to him - one that is new to him - other that the language that he normally uses and understands. When speaking in an unknown tongue the believer is speaking to God things not understood, which builds himself up.
D. David Pytches - This is spontaneous inspired utterance by the Holy Spirit, where the normal voice organs are used, but the conscious mind plays no part. The languages spoken are entirely unlearned by the speaker.
E. John Wimber - Kinds of tongues are Spirit-inspired, spontaneous utterances in which the conscious mind plays no part. It is speaking in a language (whether earthly or angelic) which the speaker has never learned or understood. This is used privately by a believer and may be used at will for his own edification. Tongues are also used in public as an ecstatic utterance following an anointing from God.
From Releasing Spiritual Gifts Study Notes by Jim W. Goll Published by Ministry to the Nations P.O. Box 508 Grandview, MO 64030-0508 Copyright 1995
Each of the Gift of the Holy Spirit are defined by different Pentecostal/Charismatics throughout the book. It would be a good tool for anybody pro or con to get to see exactly the thinking of some of these P/C people. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1756
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.190
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 2:02 am: |
|
The following is a quotation DIRECTLY from the book, "The Beauty of Spiritual Language - Unveiling the Mystery of Speaking in Tongues" by Jack Hayford Thomas Nelson Publishers 1996
In writing this book, I'm using the more contempory term "spiritual language" for the simple reason that it's an easier way to describe speaking in tongues. Even though "tongues" is a biblical expression, it tends to conjure up strange images in people's minds:
* Images of uncontrolled speech or incoherent, babbling ecstasy
* A voodoo-like mumbo-jumbo muttered from slightly foaming lips
* Weird gibberish emitted from a stiffened body besieged by hypnotic trance
This problem is compounded by the fact that the term "ecstasy" is never associated with tongue speakers in the Bible...
Further, to use the expression "spiritual language" as a more easily accepted description of tongues speaking is precisely biblical. A look into the epistles shows this, because reference to tongues here are more expannsively dealt with than in Acts. The show Holy-Spirit-assisted language as positively applicable in prayer or praise. Tongues are said to be (1) "speaking to God" (1 Cor. 14:2), and (2) as "giving thanks" (1 Cor. 14:16-17). The apostle Paul also speaks as well as in adoration (1 Cor. 14:5a,18). Notice his terminaology in describing his own practice: "I will pray with the spirit....I will sing with the spirit" (1 Cor. 14:15); terms similar to those he uses in ncouraging all believers to do the same. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1757
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.190
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 2:25 am: |
|
History
Historically, the Charismatic Renewal Movement has considered, "speaking in tongues", as languages. The Church on the Way is located in Van Nuys, Ca. There are two large churches 1/2 a mile away from, one large church used to be a Baptist Church and the other they built themselves.
What people do not know about is inbetween these two large churches is an old little Episcopal Church by the name of St. Mark's Episcopal Church. That little church is where the Charismatic movement began, and the Charismatic movement and minister that began it was booted out.
From the back of the classic Charismatic book, "The Holy Spirit and You", by Dennis & Rita Bennett Logos 1971
The Rev. Dennis J. Bennet has been one of the key figures in the renewal movement. The 1973 Yearbook of the Encyclopaedia Britannica says: "When in 1960, Father Dennis Bennett announced to his congregation, St. Mark's Episcopol Church at Van Nuys, Ca., that he had experienced a new outpouring of God's Spirit, the recent movement can be said to have begun...Before long, 'charismatic renewal' became an issue across the land."
Regarding, spritual languages from, The Holy Spirit and You, 1971
"...the disciples were all "filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4 KJV). It is important to remember that the Holy Spirit was already living in them, ever since Jesus had conferred them new life in the Spirit on the evening of the resurrection....
"He overflowed from them out into the world around, inspiring them to praise and glorify God, not only in their own tongues, but in new languages, and in so doing, tamed their tongues to His use, freed their spirits, renewed their minds, refreshed their bodies, and brought power to witness. A great crowd gathered, baffled by the sound of these Galileans speaking the praises of God in languages of far-off countries. The listeners were not foreigners, but devout Jews from all over the world (Acts 2:5). They were amazed to here these humble people praising God in languages they knew they could not have learned, languages of the countries where the listeners had been brought up, and other tongues which they did not recognize, "tongues of men and of angels" (1 Cor. 13:1 KJV).
My point -
The point is that Acts 2:4 says the Disciples were speaking in other languages, and the people each heard them speaking in their own native languages, and they disciple did not know what they were saying. Acts 2:4 makes it clear it was not just an interpretation miracle... |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Senior Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 8:14 am: |
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Mr. Dobman53:
You are absolutely right. St. Paul said as much with the comment "tinkling brass." More important no one, in this day and age, is/are impressed with the sound of a foreign language. In fact, most of us can communicate with those speaking a foreign tongue. Simply because our language has adopted/adapted so many other languages. Baptism provides an excellent example. The word 'baptize/baptism' was transliterated from Greek into English by the authors of the King James Bible. Legally speaking, you can claim 'tongues' just by saying 'baptize/baptism' because you did not learn Greek. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Senior Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 8:16 am: |
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Come, Mr. Easeltine, deal with con-men. Does a con-man wear a sign declaring what his/her game is? |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 886
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 12:06 pm: |
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Dobman: If I understand you correctly, you are correct in your post addressed to me, though you and I haven't dialouged. For me, there are more important things than being right, and that revolves around how to treat people. That's just me, and certainly not the prevailing view at factnet.
None the less, I'll press on here. Easeltine is much better at the kind of stuff he posts, but I'll comment on the dictionary.
That sounds similar to the samarin study a little, which seems to prove that in a language or linguistic sense, tongues that have been recorded aren't anything more than strung together syllables etc... Sounds like, according to that, a dictionary wouldn't work.
In many cases, that's what tongues sound like to me, and I think sometimes what we call tongues is tongues, and sometimes it isn't. It always reminds me of the devil telling Jesus to jump off the temple when someone tells a tongue talker to record them and prove something.
It seems to me that though I've known many who speak in what we call tongues, I've known no one who regularly interprates. I attribute this to the fact that in my circles, rarely are tongues uttered in a public fashion for interpretation. That boils it down to the personal prayer language (for lack of a better term for now) thing.
Somebody said something over in the other thread that has me thinking about this area now. I am privately studying a section of scripture to more accurately compare my view with what was said because something caught my attention I had not pondered much. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1761
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 1:10 pm: |
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Xman3,
"In many cases, that's what tongues sound like to me, and I think sometimes what we call tongues is tongues, and sometimes it isn't."
When I look at the situation that you are describing I come to the conclusion that there are:
1. Languages that are being made up by the speaker, coming from the speakers flesh or self.
2. Languages that are coming from a demon and are satanic.
The second type of demonic languages does happen and the person involves in this needs to be delivered from that bondage.
Do you agree with that?
Then there is the real spiritual language from the Spirit of God. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1685
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 1:19 pm: |
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And the great big debate continues. I be back after the new year, my mind finally got full of half nonsense and the other truth. In other words turtle finally crashed.
Yes tongues is real, but not like we see it demonstrated in many circles today. God uses miraclous events in people life to draw people to Him. Read Mark. Miracle book. Tongues with interpetation would be a miracle today unless it is a known language. Though Mark does not talk of tongues, we must remember it was a gift of God used to demonstrate His power and might starting in Acts 2. Prophecy was around before then. But tongues was not a gift tell new testament or at least the Bible does not speak of it tell then. Reason to bring all nations and all people to God, ( to the Father, To Jesus and to the Holy Spirit. )
Purpose of tongues to draw men to God. Wake up if it not drawing men to God then it is false. If it drawing men but there is no love then it is false. If there is hate and no love then something is mega wrong. Compassion love, hope faith. Greatest gifts. Are we resounding symbols or do we speak love. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1762
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 1:19 pm: |
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Rev.,
Obviously, you do not agree that there is a real spiritual language from the Spirit of God. My question to you is, "Do you pray for people for deliverance that have demonic languages?"
In all you are talking about have you actually prayed in the name of Jesus Christ for the person to be set free?
Some of the languages cannot be explained away as not supernatural, they are supernaturally produced, so that's why I ask you that question. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 890
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 1:28 pm: |
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easeltine:
I would agree with that. I have not to my knowledge, though, ever encountered someone who I thought was speaking in tongues demonically, though I certainly believe the devil can, and does copy everything God comes up with.
I'm afraid that were someone's tongues recorded and proven to be a language of any sort, that it would simply be written off by most anti tongues people as demonic though, so it's usually a no win situation when trying to physically prove spiritual things.
There was lots of pressure on people in my ex church to speak in tongues as if it were some sign of spirituality or something, and I often think that a lot of it was the person or flesh and not the Holy Spirit, but frankly I really don't know for sure in regards to others.
I definitely, obviously, agree in the spiritual language from the Spirit of God though, and practice it all the time. Doesn't make me better or worse though, and has nothing to do with salvation, but is chock full of benefits. That's how I see it.
If one can wade through the crap here, there actually is some good discussion and I've learned quite a bit more than I knew before about why non tongue talkers believe as they do. Hard to believe a babbling idiot like myself could learn something, but it's true. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1686
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 1:29 pm: |
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Question is it demonaic or is it mental illness. That is another good question. Most cases are mental illness, but there is always that small percent that could actually be demonaic activity. How do you know the difference, God will have to definitely show you.
Scripture on Mark 1 of the man with an evil spirit spoke out against Christ. Most scholars do believe that was demonic when the other cases they believe were mental illness. Strange that only on case was convincing enough to scholars and it was perhaps that words Christ used when He rebuked the spirit. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 2:20 pm: |
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Xman3,
"Doesn't make me better or worse though, and has nothing to do with salvation, but is chock full of benefits."
That is the case made by Jack Hayford in his above book. In that book he talks about one of his Fundamentalist friends, (probably Dr. Dobson), coming to speak at a men's conference to 10,000 fundamentalists on this topic. Many believing that speaking in tongues was demonic. His lesson was on, "The Beauty of Spiritual Language."
Turtle,
"Question is it demonic or is it mental illness."
I think most of the time, even though we can't see it, it is both demonic and mental illness at the same time. Even, sickness and diseases are both spiritual and physical at the same time. It's more of a combination than the natural man realizes. |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 2066
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 167.193.134.61
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 2:29 pm: |
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I will, hopefully in the near future, post a chapter out of Samarin's book giving his conclusion on tongues. There may yet be some Charismacostal out there speaking an actual language, but in all the recorded examples Samarin studied, not one was a real language. Until it is demonstrated there is, why play the "what if"?
I don't believe modern glossalalia is either demonic or mental illness - it is an unconsciously learned mimicry of human speech predicated upon a number of sociological factors. Examples are found in almost every culture and religion. What it is not is supernatural or language. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1688
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 2:36 pm: |
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Easeltine,
Truth maybe so, but does it matter, Does it change the ability for God to deliver. Does it change God use modern science to help mentally ill patients to live fairly normal lives. If God healed everytime we prayed the way we wanted our churches would be packed. God desires men and women to come to Him out of love and reverence not out of what they can get from God. Kind of like teenagers going to dad and mom for money all the time, parents hope eventually to get back from their kids. They desire that love and respect back. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1764
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 3:37 pm: |
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Turtle,
It is like my dad that died last year from cancer. He fought the cancer for 3 years. My parents go to a Fundamental-type Church, but many people prayed for his physical healing.
Every moment of those 3 years he was brought closer to Jesus Christ. It is like the Scripture where the Apostle Paul prays against the messenger of Satan, (his eye problem), and the Lord says that His Grace is sufficient in weakness. Phil. 3 is what we need to do as Christians, walking closer to Jesus Christ everyday. That is what happened to my dad. The Lord used this. When he died, he died praying for my mom on his knees. He wasn't able to get up. That was very unusual for my dad. He wasn't able to concentrate well, but he took my advice and kept watching different Bible movies, and that helped his mind. He tried very hard not to take any morphine.
We would like God to be our servant and answer all our prayer, but that is not the case. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1689
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 6:12 pm: |
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The health and wealth movement is kind of like that. Everything is fine and when something terrible happens then they have no answer for it. Let it happen to the leader and guess what. Everyone flees. It is sad. Some health and wealth teach Jesus, but fail at teaching that everything is n't money and glory. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1765
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 6:54 pm: |
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That's correct Turtle. I like the terminology health and wealth movement. I call it name it and claim it, and the prosperity teaching. Same thing, just different label.
When people forget about picking up your cross to follow Jesus, it is as you say sad. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 892
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 7:32 pm: |
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Amen fellows.
easeltine:
I'm glad you started posting lately here, though I see you've posted a heck of a lot more than me and I've not noticed before. I'm kind of streaky, depending on my schedule here. It's good to have a fellow "charismatic" or 2 who thinks so much like myself. Sometimes, I must admit, it gets very tough dealing with some of what is said here and trying to carry on a debate or discussion seemingly alone, as might be expected on a cult exposing board. We seem to think alike quite a bit and I've found most of your posts to be excellent. tatm, watchman, and mcmstaff are very knowledgeable and I find that mcm and watchman in particular present a good case with some real food for thought once I get past the continual insults and disrespect for us as Christian brothers (supposedly).
mcm and I have sort of a mutual respect in a sense though. We were from the same cultish church group years ago and have a common history, despite our different paths over the last many years. He thinks I'm a chucklehead for buying into tongues and stuff, but that bit of respect has enabled me to listen a bit and learn some things that are worth considering. You've seen, I'm sure, my take on my treatment from watchman and tatm and why I struggle continuing with them.
That's a touching but sad story about your dad. I went through my wife's dad's death last year at this time and it was a tough time. That is tremendous how God worked in that seemingly hopeless kind of situation to bring about something good. Just a little refreshment from the factnet battles.
And that's good stuff turtle. I don't know where you stand on the topics at hand, but you always add something to the discussion though you don't always get into the heat of the battle.
Trying to find the balance and truth in the healing that is available and the other blessings of God amidst all the twisted , self serving preaching is no easy task for me.
God bless you both and thanks for the discussion. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1690
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 8:13 pm: |
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xman,
Easeltine can til you I have been in the battle, I am choosing not to argue. Arguing is not helping and only destroys our testimony if we get to heated. I believe in the gifts, but they are not for me to use but for God to use them as I yield to Him. God enables us through the Holy Spirit. I think we spend to much on the debate and fail to look at the full importance of what is going on and that God has not changed. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 893
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 8:27 pm: |
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I have to agree. If I start to get to where I think I have to return insult for insult, it's time for me to leave. For me, this is the first time I've ever heard a lot of these things these guys are saying in this kind of depth, so I am getting a lot out of it. Its really convincing me my understanding is correct is some cases, and making me think about some other things.
I really hate arguing though. I'm thinking with what I've seen in charismatic christianity, that there may well be a balance in here with SOME of what they are saying, though it doesn't affect my own practice. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1691
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 8:33 pm: |
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If we let this board effect our own convictions are own practices then we really are not as rooted as we thought we were in an area. I think we have to examine our beliefs and know why we believe what we do. We need to not allow ourselves to be deceived by some of the information that is on this board as well. Our own rooting in God's word must be first and for most. It is like in any church, an unrooted pastor in Christ well probably eventually lead the church by all wind of doctrine that comes through, leading many astray. Forgive my grammer, I have good and bad days. |
bear
Senior Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.236.150.133
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 9:02 pm: |
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Hello, eastline.
I do not consider myself on any other persons bandwagon; the opinions that I express are my own.
To answer your question, no, I do not agree with their style of attacks.
I bought Jack Hayfords "Spirit Filled Life Bible", for my wife, at Christmas 1993. We still own this bible, and it does have some great notes.
I do believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are available for us today, though not as practiced and abused by many P/C's. I do, however, believe that tongues have been the most misunderstood and misued item.
As far as my historical accuracy of Jack, I am confused. I do not remember ever claiming "historical" accuracy. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 894
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 9:04 pm: |
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I don't have a problem with the convictions of my beliefs since they are derived from my understanding of scripture, but I do with what I observe in the practices of the charismatic church as a whole. I think there is sometimes insight to be gleaned from those on the "other side" that we won't get when all we hear is what "our side" has to say about these practices.
If these were unbelievers and simple troublemakers I wouldn't care much, but some of them are good christian brothers who serve the same God and read the same Bible. I don't mind saying I often see problems in the teachings and practices concerning tongues, which is why I will only defend my personal beliefs concerning them (Bible) and not the pentacostals as a whole.
I only support them, but the discussion both strengthens my convictions when I post them, and teaches me why a lot of people don't accept them. I believe that part of the reason some people are leery of them is because of some of what has been practiced that justifiably turned them off. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1692
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 10:10 pm: |
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Actually most convictions I speak are my own beliefs. We as Christians should be able to worship from Catholic to a pentecostal church with protestant churches in between. I am definitely not catholic but there are some that are very Bible base as we are. Just like our protestant brothers and sisters. I am really more non denominational and yet many would say that is a denomination.
A few years ago I made a bad mistake of looking at one group by one imposter. We can not do that. Not all of any group can be judged by one person. We must strive for unity with those that are saved and promote Christ and the basic fundamental teachings. Not all groups do that however. We need to be aware and beaware of false teachers. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1693
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 10:12 pm: |
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Why I came to the conclusion I did a few years back is I never would get a straight answer. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1766
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.204
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 12:23 am: |
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All of us here are stating that we have seen abuses in Pentecostalism and the Charismatic Movement. Those are good points made.
Personal, but I will expose myself anyway.
I grew up in the abuses of a "Manifested Sons of God/Latter Day Rain" Church. My mom was delivered from a strong evil spirit that operated in that church. I was delivered from spirits through personal prayers. I can see the abuses of the prosperity movement and the name it an claim it crowd, though there may be some truth in these issues when we focus on Christ. I was involved in the Shepherding Movement where people dominated other people in a king/slave type of a relationship. That church was broken up by the head minister due to all the assistant ministers participating in sins. They could not take prophetic correction from the head minister. For many years I belonged to a home church that focused on personal holiness, (not legalism either), and deliverance from evil spirits. My friends left our home group and went to a "laughing movement" church, I visited, and felt in my spirit that I had to put on the full armor of God, and plead the protection of the blood of Jesus. There were evil spiritual forces in this meeting. John Wimber of Vineyard correctly excommunicated this group for allowing unqualified kids to pray "prophetically" for people. My friends and home church moved to N. Carolina. My wife and I believe in the Gifts of the Spirit, and deliverance, that is why we are going to The Church on the Way. A main reason we go to a Foursquare Church is they believe in deliverance through a ministry called, Cleansing Streams. Assembly of God does not believe in deliverance the same way we do. In the Church on The Way we have seen minor abuses we don't like:
* People we know that had person sins not confronted.
* Also, for my wife and I Communion should not be taken in an unworthy matter, and their viewpoint of open Communion is too open for us.
* Praying for your prayer language, rather than praying for the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Seeking the Gifts, rather than the giver of the Gifts, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Though, I can still remember as a teenager at the Latter Rain Church praying for people to receive the Baptism With the Holy Spirit. I would pray for the convicting power of the Holy Spirit to come upon them. I would ask the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit, the Lord Jesus Christ to come upon them. The person prayed for would start crying when the convicting power of the Holy Spirit came upon them. We would praise the Lord Jesus Christ in English, though the person prayed for would start speaking in an unknown language. This I haven't done for years. Maybe nobody wants to be prayed for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit anymore, just get your few words of a prayer language?
With all the abuses I have seen and been through I do not feel the LORD telling me to give up on The Gifts of the Holy Spirit, nor the idea of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. To mock and ridicule the way it has been done on FactNet is sin, and shows a lack of the love stated 1 Cor. 13.
The Gift of Discerning of spirits did not cease at the end of the Apostolic Age and is still needed today for correcting the false gifts. When one is Baptized With the Holy Spirit they are tempted like Jesus Christ was after He was Baptized in the Holy Spirit, another reason for the need of this Gift.
People in other countries are seeing that the power of the LORD Jesus Christ is greater than their false gods. This is why Pentecostalism is powerful in other countries.
The Cessasionist cannot minister in the power of the Holy Spirit against demonic forces. They lack the supernatural ability to do so, since they are closed to the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1694
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 1:09 am: |
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I know what God did in my own life, and I know it is not the same for everyone. But I know God wants to do the establishing and the strengthening.
I praise the Lord Easeltine for what he deliverd you from. I praise the Lord he gave you strength to move out in faith.
What is the difference between your group and John Hagees ministry. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1777
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 8:09 pm: |
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Turtle,
I have not listened to John Hagee that much, though when I have listened to him I like what he says. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1698
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 9:45 pm: |
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Easeltine, Does it sadden you and much as it sadden me at the abuse of God in our country and around the world? I wish I understood why people use God. God gives us so much even when we do not deserve it. I seen News tonight. Sounds like the world is health and wealth and not God. Not Jesus. Salvation is for each of us rich or poor. Might not be financially rich but spiritual wealth I would nto trade for the world. |
dobman53
Intermediate Member
Username: dobman53
Post Number: 300
Registered: 7-2007
Posted From: 71.142.240.113
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 10:59 pm: |
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Dear Friend: I wish to give you a testimony from my younger years.
Growing up in the Assembly of God church. I was well aware of the utterance, and had seen it or should I say heard it at vertually every meeting I attended.
Though I had never seen my mother speak in tongues, we always attended just the same. As for my father he rarely attended, beings he was a Methodist.
One of my fathers close friends, had a wife that was Penticostal. Upon her learning of my mother faith, she invited us to attend her church. So the following Sunday we went to her church.
I was fascinated as a young lad at what I witnessed. People lined up at the stage crying and weeping.
Some after recieving the gifts layed all about on the stage. Others were actually rolling in the aisles.
All who remained in the pews were praying in tongues most had tears running down there face.
I looked at my mother the whole while see had her bible in her lap, with her head bowed in deep prayer.
At the end of the service I realised very little was preached. I remeber this because usually I felt good when services were completed.
While we were waiting in line to thank the minister. My mother, and I over heard one of the other women say of us that my mother didn't once speak in tongues.
Once out side my mothers friend said she was so happy that we came, she virtually insisted we attend again. My mother being the type she was agreed to her plee.
The following sunday for the most part went as the last. I remeber from the first service the same woman up on stage once again with her dress pull up over herself exposing her panties with those sesspenderd pant hose.
Though this time things went real bad for me. My mother reached up her arms in praise of the lord, and let loose with a tongue twister her minister grand father would have adorned.
At that point tears filled my eye's I then began to cry. I tuged at my mothers arm and begged her to stop. When she looked down at her little boys eye's she was utterly ashamed at what she had done.
She wisked me up, walked out for all to see. From that point on we only attended, my grand mothers church on a rare occasion. No longer did we say we were Penticostal.
This is a sad testimony . though my friends every sinle word is true. Is there anything I might say or add which could represent a lesser image to you. Dobman |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1699
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Friday, December 21, 2007 - 11:28 pm: |
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I praise God the church I am in currently is not like you describe. I thank God I did not stay any longer then I did. I am glad God is putting his house in order so to speak. But how many have been hurt, how many lives destroyed. How many did not understand. How many lost because of wolves in the pulpit. How many??? No one know that answer. May God have mercy on those that lack understanding and followed blindly.
I do not even claim a denomination now but say I am born again, that Jesus is my Savior. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 895
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 12:42 am: |
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That's pretty weird dobman. I've never seen anything like that happen in a meeting. If I had seen things like that early on in my Christian life, I might have a different view on the pentacostal thing myself. It would have been tainted by the practices of petacostals however, rather than the doctrines.
The group I was affilliated with did not abuse tongues in a weird sense like that. Of course, the mere fact we believed as a group in tongues and personal prayer language might be considered bad by some, but we weren't into strange manifestations or a bunch of strange interpretation etc...
Where we ran into problems in this area was in the prophetic. To me, there is much more potential for abuse and much more being done in this area. With the self claimed authority of prophets and their huge influence on the church or individuals, there is huge potential in this essentially subjective area.
Like in Wimber's group, young people gave personal and sometimes directional "prophetic" words to people and lives were directly ordered by the words of various in house prophets. Much good came from this ministry, which I personally saw, and much abuse came out of this ministry, which I also saw.
It is very hard to escape it, and to not believe what they tell you when you are in it because of the built in authority of the position or office of the "prophet". I've just seen very little of the strange stuff I hear about with tongues actually happen. Really, none of it yet.
The way I see it, men will always figure out a way to screw up God's gifts and spiritual things and these strange practices and scattered abuses will always be around to stoke the fires. I mean geez, look at 1Cor 14. Which ever side of this issue one takes, it is clear that almost 2000 years ago Paul was already having to straighten the tongue talkers out  |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Senior Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 1019
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 75.200.119.235
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 7:45 am: |
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Come Mr. Xman3:
Quoting: "a bunch of strange interpretation etc... "
End quote.
You still have not answered the question of how you found faked infantile gibberish. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 902
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.204.167
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 9:04 am: |
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Very well tatm. I will overlook your terminology and answer your question as best as I can, if you will answer one question of mine. I will use the scriptures even though I know you have heard most of it before. Care to deal? I will give you an easy one. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Senior Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 1023
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 75.200.39.116
| | Posted on Saturday, December 22, 2007 - 3:59 pm: |
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Mr. Xman3:
I know of no quote, unquote "proof" text your religion uses that has not aready been discussed. Your religion either redefines words or outright rejects long standing interpretations. Your best defense to date has been "I". (I believe; I think; I experienced.) You have yet to prove any point you have made. |
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