| Author | Message | ||
     saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 390 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
It has been reported on a Cult Awareness website that Word of Faith Ministers are teaching that adherents should refuse medical attention... this is a serious and egregious offense to the body of Christ. If anyone has something they can post (a direct quote or direct me to a specific teaching tape) where a WOF minister taught that you should refuse medical treatment I would apprecaite seeing this. Here are some prominent WOF ministers (these are considered "leaders" and can be seen or heard at the KCM Ministers Conference every January).... Ken Copeland, Charles Capps, Andrew Wommack, Keith Moore, Rick Renner, Jerry Savelle, Creflo Dollar, Mac Hammond, Ken Hagin Jr, Tony Cooke, Willie George, Robb Thompson, Markus Bishop, Bill Winston, Keith Butler and Billye Brim. If ANY ONE of these ministers on this lengthy list taught that YOU/WE/US should refuse medical treatment, I will renounce that minister publicly. If these, the leaders of this doctrinal movement, are teaching this - then the Christian world needs to know about it ASAP and intend to let them know! | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 3452 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.74.207.89 |
It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to believe in faith healing if you can believe that someone raised from the dead, now would it? Why not? | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 393 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
There are people who insist that these ministers teach their adherents to refuse medical attention. I have never heard this but want to know if they do. Please any clips, articles, cassette/CD recordings would be greatly appreciated. The WOF minister who taught this will be roundly chastised here, I will rebuke them publicly and thoroughly! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 986 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). Saygoodnightgracie: Refusing medical treatment sounds like a doctrine of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 404 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
Anyone?.. Anyone?.... Bueller?.... | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 420 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
Wha?!!!! NO examples of WOF ministers teaching people to refuse medical attention? You're kidding, right? | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 352 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.170.201 |
Never heard any of them tell people to refuse medical treatment, gracie. In fact, I've heard them say something along the lines of "The important thing to remember is that God wants you well, so if you need to take medication to feel better, do it 'in the name of Jesus' believing for your healing as you take the meds. The doctor is the 'authority' you have submitted yourself to, so walk under that 'authority' as long as it does not contradict the Word of God." To me, that makes perfect sense. Andrew Wommack says he has only taken aspirin for a toothache years ago and I believe what I just wrote -- I'm currently experiencing some lower back pain so I'm using common sense -- skipping the gym, stretching and yet I continue to believe for my healing. Merry Christmas to everyone here on FactNet! I was reading this morning in 1 Timothy in The Message translation and this passage spoke to me…and maybe it will speak to you, too! (Emphasis mine!) 1 Timothy 1:4-8 (The Message) Self-Appointed Experts on Life Stay right there on top of things so that the teaching stays on track. Apparently some people have been introducing fantasy stories and fanciful family trees that digress into silliness instead of pulling the people back into the center, deepening faith and obedience. The whole point of what we're urging is simply LOVE-LOVE uncontaminated by self-interest and counterfeit faith, a life open to God. Those who fail to keep to this point soon wander off into cul-de-sacs of gossip. They set themselves up as experts on religious issues, but haven't the remotest idea of what they're holding forth with such imposing eloquence. It's true that moral guidance and counsel need to be given, but THE WAY YOU SAY IT and to whom you say it are as important as what you say…. Hopefully, I’ll be careful to watch “the way” I post/say in addition to what I say! Peace and hope to you all, Bachman | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1034 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
I don't think these teachers actually tell people to refuse medical attention but some of their misguided followers take the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion which is ...God has aleady provided the healing you need ... if you want the healing to manifest in your body, you have to believe that you are already healed .... and if you believe you are already healed, you don't need a doctor. The Reality Of Faith By Andrew Wommack http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/reality_faith "True faith doesn't deny physical truth; it just refuses to let physical truth dominate spiritual truth. True faith subdues physical truth to the reality of spiritual truth." So if you have "true faith" you believe that you are already healed even if you have physical symptoms, and if you are already healed ... you don't need a doctor or medical attention. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1700 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
YOu know you could of saved me alot of time if someone just said watchtower. lol. Figured it out last night.A baptist does not belong there that is for sure. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1035 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
"When you believe in something, you have to believe it all the way. If you only believe in it part way, it's not a true belief." Roger Winterbourne. Five of his children died of pneumonia between 1971 and 1980 without receiving medical attention. Interesting link listing cases where children dies because parents refused medical attention due to religious beliefs .... Cases of Childood Deaths - Due to Parental Religious Objections to Necessary Medical Care http://www.masskids.org/jcl/jcl_6appendix.html | ||
| bluewater2 Senior Member Username: bluewater2 Post Number: 3454 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 75.42.171.14 |
Well, I guess if you are going to believe something "all the way", these kids are now sitting at the right hand of Jesus, right? Very sad, indeed. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1701 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
Only time I have said no doctors is because i could not afford to go. But reality I could not afford not to go if I wanted to live. I can not understand why some groups teach not to go to doctors. Even in the Bible Priest were medically inclined. Lack of knowledge by some groups. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1024 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 75.200.39.116 |
Mr. bachman Quoting: "It's true that moral guidance and counsel need to be given, but THE WAY YOU SAY IT and to whom you say it are as important as what you say…." End quote. My mammy said it with a switch. Was she wrong? Should she have bowed down and licked my @@@ while buidling my self-esteem? OOPS! I forgot to mention my school teachers, were they wrong also? | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1036 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
Quoting: "Should she have bowed down and licked my @@@ while buidling my self-esteem?" Obviously the switch didn't work .... or "mammy" never taught you how to conduct yourself in mixed company. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1025 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). marta: She did an excellent job of keeping her youngins out of prison. Speaking of conducting ourselves in MIXED company, she always had a few spare Shaloms lying around. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3880 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
tatm// also tatm mammmy is a word that the black people used to call their mothers and you are makeing fun of blacks when you say that. and if she did tak e a switch to you she didnt hit the right spot or you would not be so hateful and you would not use the lanquage you use (even thought you put it in other little things on hers we all know what you mean that also shows you that you are not the only one with sense. we just have sense enough to believe what the word of GOD saya and not what we feel. and we are not afraid to tell what church we belong to nor who we were ordained by nor where we got our doctorate ( if any) | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1037 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
and if she did tak e a switch to you she didnt hit the right spot or you would not be so hateful and you would not use the lanquage you use My point exactly. Thank You! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1027 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Arron & M(r)(s). Marta: May I laugh at both of you? We know who mind is in the gutter. I wrote @@@. Had the board seen the word "•••" it would look like this. hehehehehhehehehehehe | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1038 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
We know who mind is in the gutter. Yes we do ... the one who had the thought, knew it was wrong but posted it anyway. If your thought was not offensive, why attempt to hide it? How sad it is that there is so much sexual immorality, impurity, and greed in the church today. You should be ashamed, but instead you laugh. Shameful. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1031 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). Marta: Yes siree bob! You made a complete fool of yourself. The first thing my mammy taught us, don't read between the lines. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1039 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries, I see from other threads that most people on FactNet just ignore your posts .... from now on I will do likewise. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3883 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
TATM/// a question .... are you a black person? if not why are you making fun of them? if you are i can understand why you say mammy. and it was YOU who brought up the words not i , nor marta. your mind is in , no no in i thnik it is smewhere under the gutter, the gulley, the trash pile , the trash can for it is on yur mind all the time | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1786 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
Saygoodnightgracie, Answer, they do not. One of Marta's links goes to a Christian Science example. Kenneth Hagin Sr. didn't teach that either. Can't anybody even produce a sentance out of context from Hanky Baby? No? Remarkable! | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1787 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
Even people who like to routinely falsely accuse Pentecostals on FactNet hasn't produced a lie about it! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1035 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s) Marta: Again you are making a fool of yourself. All of my post are responded to. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1041 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
Can't anybody even produce a sentance out of context from Hanky Baby? No? Sounds like you are advocating dishonesty.  I wish I could help but it's difficult to provide quotes because most of these "ministers" charge for their books, and it's not worth my time or money to purchase their books and then read them so I can provide you with quotes. Too bad I tossed out all my wof books, tapes, etc. From what I can recall I don't believe any of these teachers ever told anyone to refuse medical attention, however if one takes the teaching to it's obvious conclusion it's not too hard to understand why some people do refuse medical attention. Disclaimer: This is from a web site, not the actual publication .... In the Name of Jesus by Kenneth Hagin, p.44 "I have so often said, I haven’t had a headache in so many years (45 to be exact) ... Just a few months ago, as I left the office building and started home, suddenly my head started hurting, someone might say, “well, you had a headache. No, I didn’t have one! I don’t have headaches. I haven’t had a headache since August 1934. 45 years have come and gone. And I haven’t had a headache…but if I had a headache, I wouldn’t tell anybody. And if somebody asked me how I was feeling, I would say, I’m fine, thank you." What's the message here? Believe God or believe my symptoms? If I choose to ignore my symptoms, wouldn't I also refuse medical attention? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1795 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
No, dishonesty is the devil's specialty. I leave it to the heresy hunters to practice Satan's ways. I took an asprin for my headache yesterday, so I must not be Word of Faith then? Actually, I complained to Kenneth Hagin 15 years ago about Kenneth Copeland's obvious abuse of prosperity teaching. Kenneth Hagin Ministries rewarded me by sending me a free magazine every month for the past 15 years. I'm not with the Word of Faith movement. What I really dislike is the false accusations, such as the Cult Awareness website. They and all false accusers are part of the "Accuser of the Brethren" cult. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1796 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.37.3.218 |
Good reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3888 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
tatm are you black ???? | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
Does the WOF teach people should refuse medical attention. What they DID was use lingo such as "by His stripes you WERE and they use that word "WERE" healed. They gave people the impression, that if you are close enough in your relationship to Christ then you will not have illness and giving to their ministries surely showed your faith. If you did have problems in your life you probably had been walking outside the will of God and had brought this upon yourself. many at one time taught the power of the positive confession in otherwords DENY..saying things such as I am healed in the name of Jesus, I am not sick I will not accept this sickness! they really saw no need for doctors if you were walking accordingly to the word of God. And therefore going to a doctor gave off the impression you did not have the faith, you had not arrived! Now I must add this was a fad with the WOF movement in general in the late 70's and 80's many books have been written by ministers that discuss healing and having the gift of healing. (Message edited by pebbles on December 31, 2007) | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
One such book is The Bible Healing Study Course by Kenneth Hagin. I encourage those who are interested in this subject to pick up some of the older material from Hagin, Copeland, Capps, Osteen, Freeman and others who practice under the Word of Faith Ministries movement. As you read you will see where confusion may come in and how easily scripture can be used to market ideas such as faith healing. Of course no one will come right out and say i command you not to go to the physician(Freeman was known for this however) but when they preach that Jesus or God is the great physician and that He died on the cross not only for your sins but for your sickness too, we can see where confusion or an underlying message that medical intervention isn't necessary if your faith is there then you should surely be healed. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3911 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.117.203 |
as you all know i am pentecostal and as such i defend our faith. not all pentecostals belive nor do they teach such doctrines as no medicine. i take medicins and trust THE LORD ALSO TO HEAL me. i have never been told nor has nay one in our church ever been told not to take medicine and we have had some healings in our church. i have been healed many times my self so please dont judge us all because one is out of line with GODS WORD i do not listen to kenneth copeland, kenneth hagin i dont even know who capps is i do not listen to osteen , i dont know the freeman either. i take what GODS WORD TELLS ME and if GOD HIMSELF were to tell me not to take any med i would not. but not because man said my faith would heal or deliver me by what they said. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
Hi Pebbles, I consider myself to be WOF and so do most people who know me. I go to doctor's, I pray and believe God for healing - then if there is something that can be done in the natural realm to alleviate the symptoms, I go to the doctor. I have a (WOF) relative that has never gone to a doctor, but that's between him and God. That same relative's wife goes often I hear. "by His stripes you WERE and they use that word "WERE" healed." I'm not sure this is "lingo" Pebbles, I think it's a scripture found in the Word of God (in three places, in fact). "1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" It was Peter who used the past tense "were" first, others just repeating what he said. Off the top of my head, the other two references are Matt 8:17 and Is 53:4-5, I think. Be blessed Pebbles! | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
I think it is important to note , that we should remain poitive in our outlook in life and that going to see a physician is a normal part of healthy living, there really is no need for any minister to preach that being sick is a symptom of doubt or sin, it is a part of living on a planet where we get older and yes we do suffer in our health for many reasons. I do not know how long you have been a born again christian but those who were raised under the teachings of many of the Word of Faith ministers would be lying if we said that a tremendous amount of spiritual growth was placed on the fact that we were able to stand on God's word for healing. Book after book, cassette after cassette has been preached on the faith healing, it was a large and still probably is a large part of this ministry. There were times when people were throwing off their glasses and stomping on them in church, a time when if you were sick you prayed for healing(before going to a doctor) in the name of Jesus for he alone was the great physician. Again it is rare that any minister in his right mind would say "I refuse as your shepherd to allow you to go to the doctor" but certainly the pressure of being right with God and walking as Christ did meant complete and total health. happy new year | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
I was "raised under" the teachings of my parents, my cousins, my best friend, Bros. Copeland, Hagin, Wigglesworth, Mac Hammond, Keith Moore, Charles Capps mostly I guess. I have never, ever heard of any of these ministers suggesting that you should throw off your glasses and stomp on them. I have never heard of any of these ministers suggest that you should not go to doctors. I'm very sorry for you if you or a family member was subjected to this manner of spiritual abuse. However, these ministers I just mentioned would be considered to be "leaders" of the WOF movement, and they do not teach these things. I would suggest to you that perhaps the ministers who taught these things were not Word of Faith? I am going to a minister's conference in a couple of weeks, where I will be ministered to by Ken Copeland, Billye Brim, Jerry Savelle, Mark Barclay, Creflo Dollar, Keith Moore, Bill Winston, Keith Butler, Happy Caldwell and Dennis Burke (typically)... I will listen carefully for the doctrines of stomping on your glasses or refusing medical attention. If I hear these concepts being taught, I will report back here immediately Pebbles and publicly renounce that minister. Who are some of the ministers that you heard teaching these things? This is WRONG, WRONG teaching and can seriously hurt people. Thanks Pebbles, 2008 is going to be GREAT! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
""by His stripes you WERE and they use that "1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" It was Peter who used the past tense "were" first, others just repeating what he said." Did you read this Pebbles? PS I wear glasses, have for some time. About two years ago; my father, my daughter and I all prayed and began believing God for restored eyesight. We confess that we have 20/20 vision. The last time my father and I purchased glasses, our vision had improved and our prescriptions are not as severe... This occurred with two different doctors in two different states. Both doctors INDEPENDANTLY stated that this is extremely rare that someone's vision improves! Each of us were afforded an excellent opportunity to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ to eye doctors following the exam, by testifying of His goodness and desire to heal us! | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
We would be in deniel if we didn't see how the faith healing movement is a dangerous one. When a person is told, "you can have the health Christ had, if you just have the faith of a mustard seed. We all know now how very tiny a mustard seed is, so even the smallest amount of faith should be sufficient enough to find a healing without any human intervention. Many people of course go to the doctor to find out exactly what demonic forces they are up against so they can rebuke the diabetes, tumor or other illness in the name of Jesus. In these faith healing movements they are taught to stand on the word of God for healing and going to a doctor really shows a lack of faith and again one who may become ill or God forbid pass away was probably not tough enough on the devil or somewhere had an imperfection. Many a million chapters have been written on faith healing it a real and alive teaching. Some going as far to say that perfect health is yours just with the right confession, believing that you can speak anything into existence it really huge part of these ministry mindsets, it is what sets them apart from other christians. Always be aware and be knowledgeable. It is being a follower that gets people into trouble. Many things in our life can improve if we take care of our bodies, show forgiveness and gratitude. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
What is your definition of "forgiveness"? | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
Fred Price has been quoted as saying, he is strong enough not to need medicine. When people hear these kinds of things from ministers they admire and with whom they think they share similar views of faith, they copy and follow suit. It is this way with many trends in religion, it's why they are called spiritual leaders. Watching CBN we also see many times Pat Robertson, his son and others sharing that God just laid it on their heart there was someone healed in the TV audience, immediately from a bad back or an ear infection. That is almost like reading your daily sign chart, it's a one size fits all kind of faith. Here is a list of books for those concerned with the teachings they see in the Word of faith movement,i found at the wikipeda sight, i have read the book by Gordon Fee and it was a real mind opener and helped me to see follies of many of these teachers. Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff A Different Gospel by Dan R. McConnell New Wine or Old Deception by Roger Oakland Seduction of Christianity by Dave Hunt Righteous Riches. The Word of Faith Movement in contemporary African American Religion by Milmon F. Harrison The Word-Faith Controversy by Robert M. Bowman Jr. The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospels by Gordon Fee Unfeigned Faith by Judson Cornwall The Love of Power or the Power of Love by Tom Smail, Andrew Walker, and Nigel Wright. (Message edited by pebbles on January 02, 2008) | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
Forgiveness is letting go of the pain caused to you, but it isn't being stupid and trusting someone who only has their own agenda in mind. Forgiving can heal just as bitterness can cause ulcers and high blood pressure. It is so simple God gave us all we need to live by in order to be healthy, including loving others, eating right, exercise, getting proper rest yet even then we can become sick and that is why doctors are so helpful. It is not a lack of faith if you need to wear contacts, have radiation or wear a hearing aid. We just sometimes want an easy road,name it and claim it. (Message edited by pebbles on January 02, 2008) | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
"I'm not with the Word of Faith movement. What I really dislike is the false accusations, such as the Cult Awareness website. They and all false accusers are part of the "Accuser of the Brethren" cult." Hi Easeltine, I didn't see this. I am against the unbiblical excesses in WOF movement as well. If any of these ministers have broken the law in regards to finances, they should GO TO JAIL. My problem is when, as you say, people make false accusations and claim that the ministers (un-named ministers I might add) are teaching things that NO ONE has yet posted here as proof. I am with you, I can't stand the misinformation. Give me the facts, give me proof; but vague generalities that damage people's reputations is reprehensible. Now having said that, I have a friend (Factnet Friend, not a real friend) who says that her mother passed away because she was advised or she concluded from what she was being taught that she should refuse medical attention. First of all, only a retarded reprobate would lie about something that serious, so I have absolutely NO reason to think she is lying. If this person's mother was told or taught these things, I think that's horribly abusive and as I mentioned earlier, should be punished in a court of law. I feel very badly for her and her family, what a horrible story. I pray for her often. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1877 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.164.43.195 |
Heresy Hunters to rob us of our faith. I will add those to my list of books to avoid, especially the 1st two. John MacArthur and Hank Hanegraff are two names best to be avoided by people that believe that the sign Gifts of the Holy Spirit, (such as Healing and Miracles), are still in operation today through the work of the Holy Spirit. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit have never departed from the Church of God, no matter what these heretics against the Gifts of the Holy Spirit say. | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
I often have to wonder why people have such a hard time when it comes to growing old or getting sick or even the prosperity movement, where people want to accumulate more and more things, they can't take with them when they go. That not listening to the advice of a doctor because your pastor with a degree from John Doe bible club told ya so. Is well beyond me. Of course we all have the power to chose, we all come to our religious beliefs by some form of following anothers lead. I can certainly respect an adults right to say they will chose to trust god rather then get an operation but I will never stop telling others what a stupid idea it is if the chance arises. We are humans, our bodies fail us and just as no one really wants to die, we have choices to prolong life and medicine can help. When you really step back and look at a teaching like this it can just baffle your mind. Yes, words have power in many ways, we can hurt a person by saying nasty things, we can glorify others and help their self esteem. But we can not cause a healing to take place by speaking it into existence. | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
SayGoodNightGracie,Ii am not sure where someone has written anywhere here on factnet that these ministers "refused to allow their followers to go to the doctor"? It is the faith healing that teaches others , if they have faith they can be healed and well many people have the faith and they aren't healed. You can come up with all sorts of reasons, like, oh, they really didn't have the faith, oh one time on Tuesday they gave someone a dirty look and that blew it for them cuz they were walking in sin. People aren't perfect in body, mind or spirit, we aren't gods but humans who sometimes take the wrong advice from the pulpit. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
John MacArthur and Hank Hanegraff are to be avoided at all costs... | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
"People aren't perfect in body, mind or spirit, we aren't gods but humans who sometimes take the wrong advice from the pulpit." Amen Pebbles... you, Bam-Bam and I are all in agreement. My father NEVER goes to the doctor. He is WOF. So am I. I go to the doctor AFTER I pray and believe God for my healing. You don't do something JUST because someone else does. | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
You know saygoodnightgracie, I remember as a child having problems with my eyes around the age of 12. I was straning in class to see the chalkboard and so we went to the eye doctor. He fitted me for glasses and said to my parents that my eyesight would through the years worsen. One of my parents popped up and said we aren't going to accept that..of course my eyes have gotten worse no matter the acceptance, that is life. Now I had a family member who is not in any type of faith healing movement but recently was told at 40 his perscription had improved! No need for such strong glasses, I say coincidence and he likes carrots. Sometimes things improve it has nothing to do with faith healing. I am not WOF but I also never go to doctor, I do see the dentist though. I have an obsession with having good teeth. All in all do what you want as a consenting adult but don't forsake the help a physician just because it worked for someone else or because someone whispers in your ear, writes books and makes thousands of dollars off of preaching a message that really very rarely works. Be wise! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
Works all the time for me Pebbles... but I appreciate your thoughts. And I respect your opinion. Cold night EVERYWHERE, stay warm and be blessed! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
I would not suggest that parents do that to their children EVER and NEITHER WOULD ANY WOF MINISTER worth his salt. If your parents were being taught this, I would humbly suggest that they were not being taught the WOF OR that they were giving it their own twist. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie New member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 25 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
Fred Price wrote a book in 1979 (I'm getting old!) called "Faith, Foolishness and Presumption"... he states: "A lot of people put undue strain upon their wives and children concerning healing and not taking medication. People may have a sick baby, and they could get it a shot and help the child. And they just sit there and let that baby suffer all night long, burning up with a fever, and a the poor baby doesn't even know what is going on. What does that really prove? Does that prove that you have faith, because you let your baby burn up with a fever? Is that an automatic sign that you have faith?" | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 26 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
cont. "Well, I believe in healing, but I also have enough sense to know that all divine healing is not instantly manifested. So - what about the symptoms in between the time you pray and believe God and until the physical manifestation comes? You need to understand that all healing is not instantly manifested. I have seen people who were prayed for, and they thought that their act of faith was to throw away their glasses. They have thrown their eyeglasses away or jumped on them and broken them up, saying, "This is my act of faith, praise the Lord!" And they couldn't even see their hand in front of their face. Thy say, "Praise the Lord! I'm believing God for my healing. Oops! Excuse me, didn't see you there." | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 27 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
cont. "I don't know why people get off in this. I HAVE NEVER TAUGHT IT. Anybody that has been under this ministry has never heard me tell anybody to throw away their glasses. People get that on their own. A young lady came up to my wife and me one itme, almost whimpering, almost in tears. She hardly had any friends now. Nobody would ride with her in her car. We couldn't figure out what in the world could be wrong. Finally, she said, "I claimed my healing for my eyes, but I can't see my hand in front of my face. But I don't knw why nobody will ride with me in the car". I do! I know! Poor thing. That isn't faith, it's foolishness." | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
cont. "There was a celebrated case one time in the news. A boy died, and it set divine healing back in the minds of many people. An evangelist came to town and said, "You are healed in Jesus' name". It is said that the parents took the insulin away from the little boy, and he began to go into insulin shock. The little boy said, "I need my medicine. I need my medicine. Give me my medicine:" and they wouldn't give it to him. They didn't understand at all, and they thought that by taking away the medicine, healing would come. That is not faith. That is presumption." | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
THAT is WORD OF FAITH "DOCTRINE". Clear and simple. I would say, that based on what you just read that statements like "They gave people the impression, that if you are close enough in your relationship to Christ then you will not have illness and giving to their ministries surely showed your faith." and "Now I must add this was a fad with the WOF movement in general in the late 70's and 80's" and "however if one takes the teaching to it's obvious conclusion it's not too hard to understand why some people do refuse medical attention." are categorically faulty. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
NO ONE who reads this book (and btw, this book is de rigueur at Rhema Bible Training Center - so it's 25,000 plus grads have all read and studied it), could EVER get the impression that someone is EVEN remotely suggesting to NOT go to doctors. This book was written almost 30 YEARS AGO. It have been on my mother's nightstand for 25+ years, the writer is on TV EVERY Sunday morning in every major market in North America and you read what he WROTE and that he DOESN'T TEACH this. I think this thread can be put to bed. Marta, Bach, Easeltine - although you are not Word of Faith, I appreciate your adherence to TRUTH. Thank you. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
One last exposure of negligent, factless, false comment... "That not listening to the advice of a doctor because your pastor with a degree from John Doe bible club told ya so." Based on what Fred Price wrote, people are NOT listening their pastors at all. They are coming to their own conclusions, that is sad and dangerous - many, many people have been hurt by NOT listening to WOF ministers like Fred Price when they have advised people SPECIFICALLY to take medicine AND believe God for healing. So sad. So tremendously sad. Leaves people angry at God and lashing out at ministers who had nothing to do with it - rather they TAUGHT THE OPPOSITE of what the person did. | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
I think most people would agree, there are reasons WOF ministers write books on healing. It is because they belive that by faith you will be healed no, ifs ands or buts. they don't title their books, "Faith by Medical Means". And it is normal for someone who follows the teachings of Copeland, Hagin, Price and the many other teachers in this ministry, to take what they say as God Word because they call themselves prophets and evangelists. As Marta has stated, it is implied that doctors and medicine are not necessary for anyone who has faith,. You are sadly misled, if you do not see this and I am very sorry for that but the men you admire SGNG have taught dangerous ideas and filled peoples minds with the thoughts that they are Gods and can have everything God does health, wealth power and all, if they follow the principals taught, they stand on the word, they rebuke the devil and of course as we have heard examples of before, giving to the ministries will put you on your way to a better life. In the case of my family member, this person was not looking for an instant healing. When the Doctor gave the prognosis and said, listen this tumor is soooooo small, lets go in cut it out and maybe you might need a little radiation, the reply from my mum was, I am a christian. I believe that God heals today, He is in control of this situation and I have faith that by His stripes I am healed. I am going to believe for healing, the Doctor was very kind and said, I must respect your religious views but please understand, this is serious, lets get this out of your body, you are young, healthy and we can take care of this. The reply was, thank you doctor but I am going to stand on faith and trust God to heal me, God said it, I believe it and that settles it for me. I can still hear those words as clear as they were when I was 19 years old. I didn't disagree! HELL, I was brought up under the teachings of all these men, I knew no different. God healed and who was to question when someone who had been a christian for over 15 years, was grounded in the word, faithfully supported these ministries and her church and above all was a real ambassador for Christ said, I'm trusting God, sure it might not be quick, but it will happen, the battle belongs to the Lord, why wouldn't it, I have read every book on healing, I am filled with the holy spirit, I follow a healthy diet and lifestyle- the blood of Christ will heal me. The battle belongs to the Lord! (Message edited by pebbles on January 04, 2008) | ||
| pebbles New member Username: pebbles Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 134.215.245.157 |
Well folks, it took two years for this person to die, there were ups and downs as I know that having a positive attitude and outlook can keep people going that is scientifically proven. It was one evening I found my father crying in the laundry room and he said to me, your mothers breast is black and swollen and the other one is filling with lumps too. She continues to want to trust God for the healing, she listens to Christian tapes(again copeland, capps, osteen, price, hagin, shambock, freeman) she listen to her praise tapes and reads the Bible and books all day claiming a healing. Soon bones started breaking, one day her leg broke while she was home alone she laid on the floor for hours unable to get to a phone, thank GOD my brother on fluke came to visit that day and was able to call 911.. Then Bells Palsy set in and her beautiful face was now paralyzed and finally tumors filled her whole body. people wpould come from the church and pray and sing and have devotionals and stand with her on faith..Until the day came when the only one with enough strength to seethis through was a 21 year girl who rubbed her mom's tumour filled back, helped her to the toliet and then watched her take her last breath in a blue chair in the living room. All do to some stupid teachings by some foolish men and women too, Marylin Hickey was also involved in this trend. Please do not pity me, but know for sure!!!!!! She would of never have gotten the idea that she could be healed and forego the medical treatment necessary if these preachers would have not taught such things. If they would of shut up and knocked off writing the books and selling the tapes and ministering at seminars on FAITH HEALING, through the power of a positive confession.. I am encouraged as I see others come out with similar stories. People will hear my story if the opportunity arises for it is one I do not discuss unless provocked by certain types. Forgive but don't forget the consequences and make sure others are warned! (Message edited by pebbles on January 04, 2008) | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1042 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
Thank you for your testimony pebbles. Sadly the teachings do contribute to people forsaking medical attention. Even sgng said "My father NEVER goes to the doctor. He is WOF." Isn't this what we are talking about? Taking the teaching to it's logical conclusion? I believe there is a lot of confusion in the body of Christ because of certain teachers, like one you mention .... Marylin Hickey. In the past I have received letters from her ministry. Her mailings usually imply that if you follow her instructions and sow a seed to her ministry you will receive whatever you need/want ... including healing. Isn't this just exploiting those who are struggling with serious problems for financial gain? Benny Hinn is another person who implies that sowing a seed will activate your faith and allow you to receive from God. “As you sow your seed, miracles will happen as you do it!” (Benny Hinn, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004) “The more you give the more protection you will have for tomorrow...God will spare you if you sow today.” (Benny Hinn, TBN, Praise-A-Thon, April 1, 2004) So much confusion. I want to make it clear that I do believe that God heals today. I don't agree with those who say that miracles have ceased. But I also believe that there are ministers who go beyond what is taught in scripture. Scripture is clear that teachers will be judged more harshly by God. I'm not sure that most teachers today take this warning seriously. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 4042 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.116.220 |
i beleive GOD HEALS today.there were several times my wife was healed of her sickness or somthign tha was wrong with her then she got diabeties and she had kidney fal=ilure and she passed away. but that doesnt mean tha GOD doesnt heal today for HE still does praise HIS NAME. may GOD bless you all |
