| Author | Message | ||
     lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 838 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
Welcome Calgary, I don't know anything about the Arizona church. But, it is likely if it was part of EN to have many of the issues posted on this board. You may want to direct your associate pastor friend to this board so he can see what he is involved with. If he is hoping to one day also have a multi-million dollar home, he wont care. But, if he is interesting in doing the right thing with the tithes and offerings of the flock, this board could be eye-opening to him. God bless. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1658 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
Is Rick Myers, EN's former accountant still part of that church? I know he transferred to Desert Life shortly before the church left EN. He was briefly EN's CFO after Phil Bonasso "stepped down." | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1659 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
BTW, Desert Life Christian Church's corporate status with Arizona's SOS is NOT in good standing. According to their last annual report filed with the state, sr. pastor Troy Johnson was the president and Rick Myers the secretary. Troy Johnson purchased his Scottsdale home in fall 2003 for $1,060,500. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1660 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
Does Desert Life have a ministry to pro athletes? I thought that the church was among the "football churches" that were started out of NFL outreaches. If it does, is it part of Champions for Christ? CFC used to be a major funding stream for EN. Even though CFC has dwindled in recent years, probably due to the Greg Ball/Greg Feste fiasco, it seems that athletes continue to be major funding streams for local churches that were either started out of CFC outreaches (Indy, Jax) or have a significant CFC ministry (Washington/NoVa), whether they are still in EN or not. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4369 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Getting an appointment with Pastor Troy is tough unless you drive a BMW, Porshe, or Mercedes. This seems very typical with current and former EN pastors. It seems so sad and tragic that this same trend is heard: 1. in different venues/churches 2. from new posters, indicating that nothing has changed It is the nuclear core of this ministry that seems incapable of change. Those outward things like pretty words on a blog do nothing to change this inner culture of selfishness, avarice, and hedonism. My prayer has always been that the sincere seekers of Christ see it quickly and leave. With a nuclear core like this, I do not think 'reform' is possible. I am actually beginning to think that EN and its kindred ministries are going to be responsible for a great falling away or an example that many can point to as why Christianity is reprehensible. I would hate to be in their shoes. This religious caste system, a peer pressure mentality that is worse than anything in those teen-aged years, is a disgusting representation of the Gospel. Rant over. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4370 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Is there any accountability out there? No, not from this ministry or its associates. In my opinion, the accountability comes when the light bulb goes off in the individual member's mind, (possibly after getting burned like the businessman you speak) and it is then up to that individual to vamoose. There seems to be little hope for EN, it continues down the same path that I experienced when it was Maranatha back in the 70's. I sat in church this morning and listened to a wonderful testimony about our foreign missions. There was an envelope in the pews if you wanted to give. My mind drifted back to the manipulative days of the pledges that Bob Weiner would build up to a crescendo at MLTS, with all the guilt associated to it. I had to chuckle, thinking that no 'special' offering, no brow beating, no guilt trip was placed on our congregation about the famous Lottie Moon Christmas offering. But the goal for our church, almost 200K, will be raised without fail. Why? Because it is a selfless offering to support people who live to share the gospel in other countries. No need to brow beat people when they know what is good and right. Personal prophecies from some twerp to promote a gospel album.... How utterly sickening! Thanks for the updates, Calgary, and Merry Christmas! | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 839 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.202 |
"3. Hebrews 13:17 says to obey your leaders and submit to their authority as those who must give an account for you. " I worry more about the request for the blind submission to self-appointed authority than I do about the money. The rich guy is probably ok with losing $2Mil. I am sure he didn't get rich without some good and some bad investments. But, if he did this based on this "authority" and the "prophecy", he is probably really hurt spiritually right now - much more damaging than a financial loss. From the note sent out, Pastor Troy sounds very dangerous and very typical of EN. God help anyone who comes in his greedy, controlling, blind wake of destruction. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1454 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
dear clagary, you said: "... because of a mismanagement of money." please do a little research here in this board about money and you will understand that this is a common issue. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4371 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Me thinks Pastor Troy needs to meet Jesus. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 840 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
"Pastor Troy used to have the associate pastors wash his cars and clean his pool." This is typical EN also. I remember my pastor asking a guy from my congregation who was a police officer to wash his car. The guy said he was busy. This police officer's wife would do everything she was asked (womans tasks were more administrative, child care, cleaning... all done for free). Within a few years, they were helping the woman divorce her husband because they weren't equally yoked. Last I knew, he moved on with his life and left the church and she was still there serving. They put her on payroll during the divorse and she was still on staff last I knew. If you do everything asked of you, you can be successful. But, if you say no to the little tasks like car washing there is no career or support of any kind. I remember the first time I was asked to baby sit. I was so surprised when they returned home, said thank you, and offered me no pay. This happened a few more times before I decided I was through with it. So, the next time, I wasn't available. I was put on the crap list fast after that. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1661 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
Here's the Arizona corporate info on Sought After Entertainment, LLC. It still technically exists, at least on paper. According to Troy Johnson's bio/resume, he was Rice Broocks' "apprentice" in Nashville for ten years, from 1993-2003, so back to the very beginnings of MSI. Apparently, Troy Johnson was there when Rice first went to Nashville and got himself named to BWOC's board of directors. I would guess that Pst. Troy got to learn all about "discipleship," "submission to authority," "how to quell dissent and take over a church in ten easy steps," and all the other MCM greats that one could learn from an MCM leader extraordinaire. MCM=Maranatha Campus Ministries. The cultic organization that EN is directly descended from. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1455 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
What is interesting is that Pastor Troy used to have the associate pastors wash his cars and clean his pool. Does anyone think that is kind of wierd? thats also a common problem. they thell people, that if they serve them, they serve God. some of them say this frankly, while others build, over months and years, an environement, where people get mysticaly manipulated into servanthood. people believe that they do this for God and that they will, one day, reap the reward for their servanthood. in fact it is a feudal system. churches like EN create a neew kind of clergy and aristocracy within them, where some people have a lot of priviledgtes (ie they stand above the law, and cannot be critizised or judget for wrongdoings) and benefits (like absurd high salraries, to some extend higher than the salaries of politicians or managers, or like mansons, big cars, etcetc...) while the can deal out graces or duties to others (normal church members or lower leveled pastors and ministers). the whole thing is based on false doctrines like the abusive "authority and submission" ideas or the "touch not the anointed one"-misinterpretation of the bible. people are fallible, therefore the bible talks to all of us, critizes us and judges us, if we are doing wrong, and the scripture tells us the way to reconciliation by repenting and by letting Christ change our character. in groups lilke EN and in other NOLR/NAR influenced groups the mystical creation of a new kind of clergy who posesses a deeper revelation of Christ and can lead the body of Christ, the church to its full destiny, is a deep and core problem. it makes fallible people proxies of God. Therefore you see this terrible abuse of other people in this kind of churches. and the lack of oportunities to critizes this wrong behaviour with the effekt of lasting changes. In fact these kind of churches are closer to cults than to biblical churches, when you consider their theology and their social behaviour. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1456 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
i have heared it already several times that people who got affiliated with Brooks or Bonasso closely started to behave abusive. some people started to do so after working with them while others do so after being at conferences in the USA. there is the EN church in Northern Ireland, and i was told by some ex members, that the pastor used to yell and scream to people during the service, after beeing in the USA at a leaders conference. there is something weird and abusive rooted in EN. through their history (MCM), afilliations with Wagners NAR and through their what it is! | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 838 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
You know what's weird about what calgarystampede said, is that it was the associate pastors doing the stuff. Personally, in mcm, I considered it an honor to mow Leo's lawn or haul the equipment, or pick up the speakers etc... and I still feel the same way. It's much different now though, because its not expected or demanded, and I am far too old to be unable to say no anymore. I do it because I want to, and because someone has to do the dirty work. It was NEVER the associate pastors though. Doing their dirty work was like a second tier honor. Not as good as leo, but still expected. Now, after the fact, and reading here etc..., I realize that it is indeed a manipulative scheme, and I know that no matter how pure I would like to think my motives were, I was never ignorant of the way to advancement in mcm. In MSI, I was everyman, but I was paid on occasion and had a good friendship with my pastor, which sadly appears to have been another casualty of their final hijinx concerning us. I prefer not to speculate on the motives of others so I'll accept that they too are/were caught up in this thing unknowingly, but having grown up a little, I can no loonger fathom not paying people for some of this stuff. More than that though, not in any way, shape, or form were the servants given honor nor was the oft preached scripture that the greatest among you is the servant of all demonstrated. I don't think "they", whoever they are, really even believe that to this day. Sounds good though. The "greatest" among us were the servants of few in general. Leo, however, definitely spent his time studying the word, preparing for his messages, ministering to people, and generally laying aside his own life (to his own detriment at times I feel) so much that I to this day have little problem with any service I rendered. We also had great associate pastors, and I loved them and still do, but they did not wash cars and babysit, that's for sure. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1457 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
Personally, in mcm, I considered it an honor to mow Leo's lawn or haul the equipment, or pick up the speakers etc... and I still feel the same way. It's much different now though, because its not expected or demanded, and I am far too old to be unable to say no anymore. I do it because I want to, and because someone has to do the dirty work. its for whom you are doing it. when i am part of a church, i understand that there are many things to do, to operate as a church or to hold a churchservice. of course people need to help out volunteerly. thats no problem, and thats also something which should be expected from Christians. However, abusive leaders are ver succesfull to shift the borders from a common goal (as a church) to their personal goals (as individuals). somehow they are succesfull to tell people, that if they serve THEM personally, they serve the church and therefore God. People like Leo, like you describe him however, are very seldome. instead i have seen pastors beeing in fitness studios, on vacation and wellness holidays instead of studying the word or serving the needs of the church. all this while a lot of ebthusiasts did their private things (like lawn mowing, cooking food, washing their clothes, schooling their kids etcetc...)... on sunday or on evening for bibleschool/ prayer they poped up and told us about life. And so thousands of people lawn the mawns, wash the cars, homeschool the kids of leaders who earn a fortune, enough to EMPLOY people to do this jobs, while they themselves live a modest life and believe that its God who blesses them. i think it is unfair to expect people to spend their sparetime into the leaders private affairs. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 840 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Very well said Robert, like most of your posts. I really like the way you present the facts. I was kind of hoping you'ld comment knowing you were lurking around now. Must be daytime there? Leo, like most pastors and of course myself, had his problems, some well documented here, but he lived a very middle class lifestyle and was a hard working pastor. Weren't you a pastor? What was your practice concerning this stuff in MSI if I might ask, not trying to put you on the spot or anything? This Troy fellow sounds like bad news. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1459 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
thanks xman, i apprechiate your thought also anytime! its morning here, yes  well, what shall i say. i had never had they feeling that i need to involve people to do my personal things. i felt stupid even to think about it. i mean, i live my live and they lived their lives, and the thing that brought us together was the vision for the region, and of course Jesus Christ. This ment we can work together to fullfill a vision, but it does not give me the right to exploit others for my personal benefit. i always believed and still believe that servanthood is something everyone needs to exercise HIMSELVE instead of expecting it from others! I found it very difficult to encourage people getting more involved in practical labour (so to say) for the church. there have always been the same people setting up the chairs, collecting the offerings, etcetc... but thats ok. you cannot force people o do something, and the most of them have been working a lot during week (rural area). there have been attempts on me and my wife to do things for other leaders (concerning their private lives), and we always rejected, something i am happy about now. my wife is not the cook of a missionaire who earns €7000,- a month. and i am not the gardener or private drive of a pastor guy who finds enough time to be in the fitness studio everyday (while i am working fulltime AND helping in church), etcetc--- of course there are friendships. and for friends yoo can and will do things like the ones mentioned. but i always hated this culture of the "upper classe" taking priviledges for granted while the "lower class"(thats however anyhow always the place we found ourselves in) had to fullfill manual labour for them... anyhow: a good eyeopener was the book "Intelectuals" from Paul Johnson, that i read during the later years in EN. many of the intelectuals lived the same way like some of the EN leaders do: they are convinced that they are enlightened to lead the world into a new age, because they are entrusted with a special message, and therefore all the others around them had to serve their physical needs... | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 842 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Wow. Very interesting. Thanks for the answer. I'll bet you were a good, well loved pastor. Too bad it all came to this. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1460 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
yes, there was a lot of pain, when we left - my wife and i still have it very difficult to engage into new relationships and to trust people. when i think back: the most problems started, when we were convinced that EN was our "family" and that discipleship groups and the purple book is the answer for us as a church and region. many people smelled the abuse already. and left the church. God bless them! | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3083 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.243.181 |
Okay I mean if you read that resume ? http://www.desertlifechurch.com/troy.html This guy is not just a little tied in with Rice Broocks. Okay now bear with me and look at this link and note the address of this school which is exactly the same as the Desert "Hi-Life" Church in Scottsdale, the nicest area in Arizona I might add (what a surprise)! http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/az/private/3512 So there is a definite connection with this Desert Life Church and Desert Life Academy. Okay now here is the fun part. Go back to this link: http://www.desertlifechurch.com/troy.html and click on Links and then click on Academy on the drop down menu, then click on Chat Rooms. You got to be kidding, linking this stuff to your your church/school web-site.  Okay JRJ I am ready for my lecture on being judgemental.  These people running this thing can't be very bright missing stuff like this unless Rice and his disciples are changing ? Hmmmmm! I always thought there was something ......... | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 843 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
They've been hacked. No way is that part of their site. Leave it to you to even find that Sherlock. I'll bet they have no idea that's there. Maybe I'll e-mail them. Nah. Well, maybe. Gold star for you 40. This kind of stuff is real typical cannon fodder for some posters even though they know full well the church couldn't possibly be advertising gay chatrooms etc... | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 844 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
I tried. Their e-mail contact doesn't work for me, but I gave it a shot. Maybe it is part of the site, but I hate to see that happen to anyone if it's not. The nest has some pretty strange ads that come up as part of the program that we can't avoid and is part of the web hosters program. Maybe they've been unwittingly duped by an evil webmaster or something. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1662 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
xman and 40, the resume was posted on DL's old site, so some of the links and info are no longer active/current. I posted the link to Pst. Troy's resume b/c even though it's not on the new site (yet) it includes info pertinent to this discussion. But DL's active site is here: http://desertlifechurch.tv One of the things I've been wondering about is whether some of the churches which have left EN in the last year or two have REALLY left or are just no longer "officially" in EN on paper... so still "relationally" connected. A PR move in order to deflect criticism perhaps? We have heard reports from several former EN churches which indicate that while they may be "out," they're not really out. That would include the Louisiana churches (where Jim Laffoon still ministers on a regular basis), the Austin church (Ray McCollum still visits other EN churches, most recently in New Zealand), the Colorado church (seemingly out, but still leads an ENCM ministry), and now Arizona/Desert Life. And of course, Phil Bonasso is BAACK, though really he never left... just hung out in Jax for a while, playing golf, selling paintball guns, and receiving a salary. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1503 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.133.170.183 |
Hi All-Catching up! Hi X-man, I am afraid you don't know the whole story on Leo. Do you recall how, he treated Trent? We heard about that at regional staff meetings. Leo also let someone go at Christmas time, on staff who needed the money, so he could get his shirts professionally done. At that time he was also having his mortgage paid by the young women who lived in the basement and did all the household work, errands, etc. Their funds came from their parents and jobs they fit in. They hardly had time to breathe. Leo began to use old book from the New Order of the Latter Day reign. This kept him up, reading Brahamn, etc. He became steeped in this , shoving down his sheep throats. This is when Gregg Dichow left for Chicago. Those discussion were huge. I think that you have a rather rosey view from the outside.} | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1663 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
calgary, to answer your question, this isn't unusual in US EN churches in particular... but especially at the "football" churches. Back when Greg Feste was in the picture wealthy members were steered toward him for financial management. Part of this 'management' included going through his manual, 'Wealth by the Book,' where they were taught the entire Jewish law of the tithe, or at least the law according to Feste/CFC/EN... so more extensive indoctrination into tithing and giving than rank and file members. It went far beyond what other churches teach about the tithe or even what is presented in EN's Purple Book. Among other things they were taught to 'find their Levite' to whom they were to submit themselves to and tithe to them directly. 'Wealth by the Book' is very similar to the old Maranatha teaching on tithing and giving. Of course, since Greg Feste did the 'teaching,' and not CFC/MSI/EN leaders, CFC/MSI/EN could not be held responsible. Feste claimed to not be affiliated with CFC/MSI/EN. This was a LIE. CFC/MSI/EN leaders got a 'cut' from Feste through Malachi Foundation... so in essence they were rewarded for steering business Feste's way. This came crashing down a few years back when the Austin Wranglers failed to make a quick profit. You can read about that elsewhere on this forum. NFL and other pro athlete members still tithe to local churches, and form a significant amount of the funding for several churches, including Indy, MetroMorning Star in DC/NoVa, Jacksonville, and I'm assuming Desert Life in Scottsdale. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1504 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.133.164.242 |
Hi Ul, Those huge tithes were done in Leo's church. It was said that he discovered them, in the OT , it added to almost 43%. This was given to more wealthy members. It is sad to note that still in EN this went on.} | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 850 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Coppertree: Obviously, Trent's situation was unique. I'll reserve comment. I'm not sure on your facts about the women paying his mortgage. Most did pay rent, but as far as I thought the church paid the mortgage anyway and his house was used for the church in a number of ways almost every day and I had no problem with that. I don't know what they did with the money, but so what. leo lived an average lifestyle in a nice house, but nothing ridiculous, had one car that was nothing special and was used for all kinds of stuff, made a average salary, and spent his time doing just what I said. He did preach all those tithes and back then. It wasn't going to him though. Anyway, lots of problems we had, but what you call a rosy view from the outside (though of course I was the member here), I call circumspect. Very bad teaching I think. The women living there did do a lot of work, I will say that. Some were overworked and urged to live there and do it, others really wanted to be there to do it. They had it tough though, and all I'm saying is that he himself used his time for ministry and didn't live the high life. I don't know what you mean by "this was given to the more wealthy members". He preached the message multiple times to the whole church, though I think in general mcm had a philosophy that workers (the wealthy to us) were there for financial support for those who did the ministry. The money certainly wasn't given to the wealthy members, so I'm thinking you mean the teaching. You ought to stop and consider the fact I lived and worked with Leo personally for 7 years. Instead of saying what I don't know, which are facts, perhaps you should consider what I do know and accept that problems and all, Leo was no monster and was very committed to mcm and our church and us as individuals. Sure there's stuff I dont know at a regional level, but it doesn't change anything I lived. Actually, there's lots more I do know than anyone here too about Leo. I could really add to the fire if I wanted, but Im talking about things 15-20 years ago. Bottom line for me. Love covers a multitude of sins. I love Leo, and I have no desire to expose his weaknesses unecessarily. What I said was appropriate for this thread, but there's lots more that I don't think is. This is not a comprehensive dissection of Leo's life and ministry. My point was we served for free and for me it was ok, for some not, but Leo himself wasn't using this to live the high life. Now I see things different though as far as a lot of that free service. Some I think is a good thing. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1664 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
coppertree and xman, I don't know Leo personally, so I can't comment on what his lifestyle was like in MCM days. I know that when I was first researching the homes of the top leaders, he was not among those living in an expensive home in an expensive area. At least not back in 2004 when I started this research, before he was removed from his position as dean of the school for campus ministry. He has since moved to River Landing, an upscale subdivision in Franklin, TN where several EN leaders live (either full- or part- time), including Jim Laffoon, John Rohrer, etc. They aren't multi-million dollar homes but still upscale, in the $600K and up range. While that might not buy you much of a home in California, it gets you a really nice, upscale home in Tennessee. SEVERAL leaders live in one of two subdivisions in Franklin: River Landing and Laurelbrooke. Laurelbrooke is the gated community of mostly seven-figure, custom homes. This is where Rice Broocks lives, and Steve Murrell also has a home here. Wes Campbell (ENP's president) lives here, and Tim Johnson (former BWOC associate pastor, now in Orlando) and David Houston once did but have since moved. Franklin self-promotes itself as one of the highest income cities in one of the highest income counties in the United States. This is where EN/BWOC has been trying to get a new church built, on a historic property once owned by Wes Campbell. At one point I compared the homes that top EN leaders lived in with that of the CEO of the Southern Baptist Convention, one of the largest Protestant denominations in the US. He lives in a home roughly comparable to the ones in River Landing. I recognize 9 EN-connected names in River Landing and another 3 in Laurelbrooke--was once up to 5. This is in a tiny denomination especially as compared to the SBC!!!! In aggregate they account for several million dollars of real estate. I know that not all EN pastors are living like this. But in the US it was becoming more common than not, at least among senior leadership. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2167 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.219.39 |
What I know about Leo when he was coming to our church is that he does not live in like the EN leaders. He lived in a modest home , he has his supporters pay for his home thats what I heard from the money he raised. The problem with Leo is that he is extremely legalistic. It is his teaching thats the problem. I do recall a friend told me that couple of his daughter just came home from college, out of state. And they needed rest, instead Leo told those two girls to start handing out EN flyers, They did not even had time to rest. He is one of those people thats its all about the ministry first instead of family come first. He is more dedicated to the ministry and his false teachings and practice than dedication and time to his own family. (Message edited by Ginger1 on December 18, 2007) | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2168 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.219.39 |
I think the only reason why these EN leaders kept Leo was because of his dedication to them and EN. Also of his hard core teaching on tithes and giving. Leo is not an arrogant person for what I heard, he is more of a humble person than these EN leaders. A follower with a title. People like Leo in EN would have burnt out. Gotten a divorce , probably wrecked their own family. But so far Leo has held everything together even sacrificing his own family for EN. I do not know how long he can keep this going though. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4373 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.3 |
Uly, I have thought about your comparison often. These men are remunerated far beyond their duties as a minister. My church has approx 5000 members, a huge SBC church in the south. Our pastor's house wouldn't turn your head. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1461 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
a top politician in austria earns about 96000,- Euros a year, thats approx. US$138.000,- so the EN guys want me to believe that they work more and carry a bigger responsability than a politician? come on - LOL! (specially the responsabilty part is a joke. they never admit their responsabilities. if a person gets harmed or if someone goofes soemthing up its never them or their fault. then they start blackmailing and blameshifting... ) | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1505 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.136.147.70 |
Hi X-man, I have said this before, until you are in the inner group in MCM, you don't know. The staff meeting were eye opening, to say the least. Things were hidden and kept from others in the laity. You may have lived with Leo for a time as a roommate with other men, but you did not know the inner workings. Ul talks about an inner cultic group in a church, I think that is right-on. We saw the books, talked about church business; those girls paid the mortgage and some expenses. Everyone house was used by the ministry in one way or another. Leo car was a top end Maxima, he talked to me at great length about that. At one point there in Lansing, he and David Polis were looking for new homes in upscale subdivisions. I do not have an ax to grind against Leo, if you read my posting here, you might have seen that. I would like to stand for the facts , the truth of matters, it does depend on one's vantage point. Things that happened 15-20 years do have a bearing on things here and in the now of EN. I see little change and that breaks my heart. Think of all those hurt and wounded sheep , some suffering still. This was not a mere college group full of high jinx , odd ideas and social faux steps. They played with people's lives and fortunes to come, in the name of Jesus.} | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2053 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
You know, the point about ministerial compensation isn't that what the pastor does is or is not comparable to the CEO of some company, etc. (See how many companies would hire a pastor of one of these big churches in a management position, much less CEO). It is that ministry is a service - it is laying down one's life - not about "keeping up with the Joneses" or making as much as one can. Everyone one of the Apostles, save one, died a violent, martyrs death. How many these self-proclaimed "apostles" are even willing to live a "martyr's life" for the sake of the Gospel? Additionally, the money for the compensation comes from people who voluntarily give, sometimes sacrificially. The Gospel isn't a "product" that they are hawking, and a church isn't a business. When they start to treat it has such, they're using the Gospel of Christ for their own gain, for "filthy lucre". How can you stand before people and ask for the "widow's mite", when you're living the life of a king? Then, once they get it, they won't even tell you how it is spent. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also!! | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 855 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Hi Coppertree, I do know you don't have an axe to grind with leo. Although you underestimate what I know considerably, mostly because I refuse to bring up a lot more than ever crossed these threads because it was so long ago, you are usually fairly balanced. I can't really comment on what went on that I don't now obviously, but for these few things I'm pointing out here, they are all as I said and I feel it's rather pointless to argue about what I lived every day with those who weren't there. When I first joined the E.Lansing church, Leo didn't have all those girls living there. That kind of progressively occurred. My understanding, prior to that, was that the church paid the mortgage anyway, so it makes no difference that the rent money from the girls was used to pay the mortgage as far as our church finances went. Money things do have a way of being hidden and undisclosed though to the church, but he'd a had to have been secretly stockpiling it away because he was quite middle class. I do agree that for the services rendered by them, they ought to have been paid, or perhaps not paid rent, but that's the way it was. It was like Robert said, almost a feudal system, but that's not the point of what I said. Again, all I'm saying is no pastor lived the high life in East lansing. That's how I see it. And Leo earned every penny he made based on how hard he worked, wrong theology, other problems and all. I never attended a regional staff meeting, though what went on there was not as completely secret as you think, depending on who one knows, but not my concern the way I thought then, or now because it was so long ago. Most things you say, I already know actually, but I don't see them as problems relative to what I'm saying in this thread. Plenty of threads dealing with his other problems and theology here to take care of that. That Maxima Wagon was nice, but nice is relative. Compared to what he had before he got that car it was very nice. Nothing extravagent. I drove it all the time. Had things continued, maybe he would have got an extravagent house, but if you've been to it, you know it was nice, but no palace. Looking or not, they didn't get one, and Dave definitely was not paid well enough to buy an upscale house, unless of course one has a ready made mortgage specialist fixing their mortgages like EN had. Anyone who says Leo or any pastor lived the high life does not know what they are talking about because it never happened. Maybe his car was slightly better than mine, his house was in a better neighborhood and maybe a little pricy for my tastes, and his salary and perkss perhaps more than some think is right, but nothing near the scale of what is being talked about around here concerning the EN leaders. 'Nough said. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1507 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.136.147.70 |
Hi E x man, I know that you say 'nough said, but you still go on about how I am wrong, in that I did not live with Leo, as you said you did. So therefore in your logic then, I don't know what I am talking about. How long did you live with Leo, he was married when he had the house. Then you go on to say that you know that what went on in staff meetings, because you were privy to the them through someone, although not in attenence yourself. How do I know what I know? The same way do you do know about the Leo that you knew. I was there and saw and heard. That is primary evidence. We were exposed to different things, the vantage point was different. I wish now not to have seen what I saw, and even did for Leo. Would not be logical to think that somethings were withheld to you ? This inner circle was been proved here many times. Do you disagree then with Ul in her thoughts about this. It am not saying Leo lived a high life, although in relation to most of the mainly student fellowship, he did. There was pressure in funding requests to those that you do not know about. There things done and said even about teachings, and people in the church and what was done to them, unknown to others. There is an innner life, almost another church within the church that was hidden, that is my point.} | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 861 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Copper, I can't disagree with anything you said there. I agree. Different vantage points, but not merely from the outside. It is also a different philosophy on how to publicly talk about people we love. In relation to the students he did live better, as most people with jobs do. In relation to me he did. It wasn't extravagent though. Maybe a little bit high for a 150 member college church at it's peak, now that I'm a little wiser, but nothing like what I've seen here. Yes things were withheld. It doesn't change my point though. I can't judge what you know or experienced. You weren't there for mine either. I did not live in Leo's house. That's a misunderstanding. I lived in the church and worked with him for those years. Guys didn't live in the house actually. Only the girls. I'm just saying 7 of the most important years of my life were spent with leo as my friend and pastor and I know what went on in E.L. It was, after all, my whole life back then as we all know. I am not saying anything you are saying is wrong, except I think the mortgage thing is not as it looks in what you say. I am merely saying I choose not to bring up things irrelevant to MY point. I'm quite often at odds with people here on what I think is inappropriate and sin so I have no problem with our different perspectives. Frankly, often after I post a "positive" thing here, UL or someone will come up with a new fact or situation that often makes me want to eat my good words, but in Leo's case, I've just decided I won't say anything bad about my father in the Lord. I know it looks like I'm naive, but its possible that I'm not quite as much as you think. Bottom line once again is I was here and I know what went on in my church, and I know it well. You appear to know what went on in areas I was not privy. Changes nothing I said though. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 866 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Actually Copper, I just now saw what UL had said. That information is definitely many years after he left. I honestly don't know much about what's up with him since at least '92 or so. I think I only saw him a couple of times in the last 10 years. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1508 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.135.128.73 |
Hi X man, Hopefully I am not belaboring the point, as I go in again.. ah yes, where angels fear to tread... well about Leo, UL was discussing, about the inner group that existed early in MCM and continues to this day. Some how you want Leo innocent, he did this and so did others. I want it all under the blood, but as it continues would you want me silent.} | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 867 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Hi Coppertree, That's ok. In Dec. I can post with the best of 'em. I probably would want Leo innocent to tell the truth, but I never said he was. I just don't talk about the negatives concerning him. Would I want you to remain silent. Part of me says yes, and part of me says no. I am not addressing the inner circle, the questionable or bad theology, or any of the other things occasionally said about Leo here. I would say it depends on what he does, and how he's dealt with it before the Lord. Serious matters that are timely, I would reluctantly say go for it. Matters that do not really have anything to do with the topic at hand don't need to be brought up in every context I say something about Leo. Every single person at factnet is aware of Leo and much of what he's done. Not everybody, OR ANYBODY, as far as I know was in this church except myself, or knows that he was a husband, a good father, a man who laid his life down for his church, and actually did some real good things too, like leading me to the Lord. Initially, I merely was commenting that in our church, associate pastors didn't wash cars and babysit. We served for free in many capacities. Now despite the fact that Leo's mortgage was paid by the church, or if you prefer, was written in the books as paid by those living there, he did not use these things (bad as they often were) to his personal advantage. He used those things to free himself to do what he believed was the work of his ministry, and he worked very hard. I'm not even so sure personally that a lot of the stuff done ought not to have been done for them anyway. I have less problem with free services rendered within a church, than I do with a culture that demands and expects these free services as a means to advancement or promotion, or as some test of spirituality. I'll tell you Copper, I have lots to say, but this is an Arizona church thread and that's why I don't want to belabour it, not because I don't have more to say. Perhaps it was a mistake for me to say something good about someone here when I should have known it would distract from the topic. I laugh at myself too. I told my wife I said something good about Leo and it slipped by on factnet, thinking I was so subtle, and then you came in and burst my bubble. Rarely does anything slip by here though. Any time anybody here anybody wants an in depth discussion about Leo's maranatha days or the E.L. church, I will be more than happy to carry it through to the end in the right thread. I know what I know, and I don't know what I don't know. After all, for me, it was the best of times, and it was the worst of times. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3087 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
xman3 they say that Mike Bickle of IHOP fame is also a nice guy and just like Leo, he has been associated with strange beliefs. According to former posters here, (unless I got it wrong) Leo would pressure committed Christian people coming to his ENLI training to be born again anew under his ministry. I realize you love Leo but how much biblical knowledge does it take for him to realize that is so wrong? In some ways I don't know what to think, Tik basically said Leo was a thug and you make him sound like a wonderful person with messed up theology???? It sounds like Leo is not as materialistic as others in EN but Leo did emphasize a sheperding environment which enabled other pastors out there to use their flocks for personal gain. Many leading this thing have had a sense of entitlement when it comes to using their congregations to make their lives comfortable. On the surface I agree with you that a person could decide to help out their pastor with free services and it might be okay and a service to God but where do you draw the line? When does it become sin. If the ministers have a sense of entitlement and expect free babysitting, free carpentry/mechanical help, free cooking or cleaning or at least these services provided to them at a steep discount? I mean just having a hand maiden around? I do remember Bob Weiner on the satellite prayer thing honoring some hand maiden and saying that she was moving on to another ministry and he needed another one. There has got to be some point where this mind set leads to sin don't you think? Of course I understand if you have a church starting up a pastor most likely will have to rely on volunteers and that might be okay but??? Copper does seem to have a good point there, is it right to fill your basement with a bunch of girls who pay your rent and then do most of your domestic chores for you? Sounds like Leo had a whole stable of defacto hand maidens in reality. Of course to be fair some girls volunteer to serve by helping out. I remember a very humble guy at my church who did not want to take the girls up on their offer to clean his house and bathroom but it sounds like Leo was not like that. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3088 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 17.184.103.245 |
Also the idea of having associate pastors wash cars and babysit is not such a hot idea since those same associate pastors will expect the same type of service from those under them, when they get their own churches. The main pastor who had others washing his car could have set and example and washed his own car. I guess if someone noticed the pastors car was dirty and decided to clean it, that might be okay. Paul did set an example though by not burdening the church and he raised support by making tents. It sounds like they don't want people in ministry taking part time jobs though. I wonder why, it was good enough for Paul. | ||
| formermaranathapastor Intermediate Member Username: formermaranathapastor Post Number: 272 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 71.37.149.157 |
Well so far they have only sucked in about 350 persons. That is probably counting the dogs and goldfish too. He claims to be the "founder" of Desert Life, even though it was a Morningstar church before that. | ||
| livingwaterman Junior Member Username: livingwaterman Post Number: 32 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 24.22.94.158 |
Guys and Gals I once was in both David Houston's and Leo's homes when they were in LA. I can tell you that David's was very very upscale and he lived in the same neigborhood as Chris Rock. Leo's was actually modest and if expensive it was because of California real estate. Phil's home was shown to me on the way to somewhere and was more like David's. Bottom line is I have a lot of problems with Leo but his extravagant home was not one of them. I need to also say that the Pastors in my home church in Oregon lived in modest homes. The reason for some was they were not greedy. For others it was we did not have pro athletes or coaches tithing! That is they really want and think they deserve or need to live in a big home and are willing to do things they should not do to get there. Love of money is a huge issue in EN. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1469 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
i know a pastor from the region here, who had always a tendency to reward himselve on the expense of others. he was very gifted with ideas to ask for money and labour, so that people felt they do themselves a fvour giving him and his wife presents and finances, etcetc... you know, some guys have a lot of rethorical tricks in their magic box. so he certainly had a issue with greed. everyone knew it, and his eldership somehow manaed to hold it down and to have an eye on it. but as soon as he came into contact woth the EN leaders in america, and he was one of the driving forces ere in europe behind the merger of HP and EN, he started to see it as NORMAL and good that pastors live in mansions, drive mercedes and big cars, etcetc... he saw it as a duty of the church to "bless the pastor" with a "good salary" so that e can live a luxury live. one day he arived at my church with his mercedes, and the people here where disgusted about it. as i said before: i have no problem if a persongets rich by his work and talent. but i do have huge problems, if pastors make it to their goal to become rich (the bible warns about this) and then abuse their influence, and their rethorical gifts and charisma to exploit others financialy. what i want to say with this example is the following: the big EN leaders have, through their bad example, been thumbling blocks for this and other pastors. by their example of wealth and greed they have set a pattern which is not biblical. they have tempted other weak men to sin. "the love of money is the root of all evil"... their is much wisdom in this biblevers, and some guys in EN delivere a good exmple for it. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Calgary, You are way off. All the info that you have submitted is simply bogus. By the way, who is this associate pastor at DLC that you have been talking to. I know both of them, and neither are "looking for another position." Why are you so obsessed with Troy Johnson? If you want answers to all of these questions why don't you call him? I will give you his number myself if you want to call. I am sure that you don't have the nerve to actually do such a thing. It is much easier to hide on the computer. Let me know and we can talk. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 907 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.247.157.167 |
hello cdl999: You seem to know him well. Thanks for posting and welcome to the board, short though your stay may be. Not that it's a big deal, but for the sake of his reputation you might want to scroll up, check out the links that 40 noted, and see what's on there, because it may not be the current or active site, but it looks like something he might want to deal with. I wouldn't want it on there concerning me, I'll say that. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2182 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
You will know his salary if you can pull out his mortgage. Thats what Ulyankee has done in the past. Because the mortgage is based on how much is your salary. Thats all public records. Thats how Phil Bonasso, Rice Brookes , Jim lafoon and the rest of EN leadership got exposed. So from the mortgage . Then basically you will know if he is driving a luxury car or living luxuriously. Then from there you will also know that you do not have to give anymore extra money to him. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Calgary, Yes, I do know them very well. In fact, I directed them to your comments on here this morning. Hopefully they will respond to you directly. Either way, there are only two associates at DLC to choose from. Why don't you tell me (everyone) who your source is? I would love to get them involved. His number is 480 926-6752. Make sure you leave him a message, boldly declaring who you are, so that he (and the other assoicates) can call you back. I informed him this morning about your accusations and that you would be contacting him. He is eagerly awaiting your call. You said that, "...I just want to expose pastors that enrich themselves through ministry," but before that you asked about seating arrangements. What gives? Which is your highest concern? The world is dying and going to hell and you are worried about seating arrangements. You have got to be kidding. Besides, I have never heard of such a thing. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4387 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Thanks for posting and welcome to the board, short though your stay may be. Ahh grasshopperXman, experience has taught you well...  | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Anyone can get on here and post things about people without knowing all the facts, especially throught the lens of offense and hurt. What is funny is that the email that Calgary allegedley received from a pastor at DLC was originally sent out to the people who went to the church in Chandler. Why would Ps. Troy send that particular email to his associates? BTW, (contra ulyankee) Pastor Troy did not purchase his Scottsdale home until 2005. So there is no way that he paid a million dollars for a home that he didn't live in until recently. Since that time his home has drastically appreciated (just like all the real-estate in AZ). It may be worth a million now, but that's besides the point. Hopefully everyone's experience will teach them to know the facts before speaking. I mean, isn't this site called "factnet?" | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1471 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
The world is dying and going to hell and you are worried about seating arrangements. ... and overpaied leaders, and abuse and exploitation of churchmembers for personal benefit, etcetc... i do NOT say, that Mr.Troy has done these things, because i do not know him or his church. but - as a general explanation, why people are posting on FactNet about EN and affiliated ministries - the reason why many of us are here actively involved is, that they have wittnessed these things happening, and when they where trying to talk to the people/ pastors/ leaders who did so, they have been blackmailed, cast out of church, etctc... many of us have tried to talk to the elder first, and learned that this way, brought rejection and more abuse. so we stepped over here to make what paul says to timothy (1.Tim 5,20) - to expose the elders who have sinned publicly. unfortunately this seems in some cases to be the only alternative to bring some of the guys to rethink what they are doing (with less success, unfortunately). as i said, i dont know Mr.Troy or if the accusations are true or not. i will not comend on this, but watch eagerly how this topic will develope. but only as an explanation for you, cdl999 (btw welcome here and thanks for posting!! i whish more people would do so) - many of us have good reasons to be here and to talk out. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4388 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
the reason why many of us are here actively involved is, that they have wittnessed these things happening, 999, I can't speak to Troy and his toys, but like Robert said, many in here have seen abuses in this ministry and the main culprit appears to be excessive lifestyles. Please think about the situation---just suppose the house this guy lives in is worth a million. Whatever part of the country you are in, that is a nice spread. We don't know what kind of car he drives, but you do. Now, think about it honestly. Does the lifestyle/salary match the job? I would wonder about any pastor who had a million dollar home. But maybe if it one one of those mega churches. Maranatha, Morningstar, EN, have never had mega churches. Even the holy shine in Brentwood is nothing compared to many large Baptist and Methodist churches in my part of the country. Ministers in these large churches are paid well, but they also earn it. Very few probably earn what some of these EN preacher earn. And many EN churches in the hundreds, (sometimes low hundreds) not thousands. Logic would tell you that something is wrong. The problem is that members lose site of logic. They blindly follow these men because they are taught that he is just receiving blessings from God=prosperity=trinkets and goodies as proof. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Trust me, I know that there are many out there who teach and preach and live a false Gospel. Some actually believe that is God's desire for all to be rich, including pastors. This is not, however, what Troy teaches or lives. | ||
| calgarystampede New member Username: calgarystampede Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 143.182.124.1 |
cdl999... then why don't you tell us what type of car pastor troy drives. obviously, since he doesn't teach or live that it is God's desire for all to be rich. Please tell us what he drives since you know him so well. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4389 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
This is not, however, what Troy teaches or lives. By your own admission, the guy lives in a million dollar home. Please tell me that this is normal for the life of a pastor. This is what I mean by losing site of logic. We have a megachurch in town, a huge Methodist church, Frazer United Methodist. We jokingly refer to it as "Six Flags over Frazer". The senior minister is a humble country gentleman who is rewarded nicely, but not in the manner that many EN ministers are, in comparison to the size of their congregations. It is all relative. An EN church with 500 members may be HUGE to other EN members, but when compared to the 'outside world' that is a moderate size church, and the pastor's salary should reflect it. Bottom line, you probably have no idea what kind of money the man really makes. When was the last time a financial statement was available to the congregation? Like a public employee, a pastor is hired by the people, through offerings. His package should be available to all who contribute. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
First, Ps. Troy was a recording artist before he was a pastor. How do you know that he didn't use some of that money to invest in his home? Second, Ps. Troy drives a BWM SUV that is not even his. A friend in the church lends it to him, and that is a fact. He does not pay for it personally. If anyone wants to check this out, call Pastor Troy at 480 926-6752 | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
For everyone else out there (including Calgary), if you want answers to any of these questions please call the DLC office and Ps Troy will be glad to answer any question you have. If you do not call, Ps Troy will assume that you are only interested in gossing and have no interest in the truth. Financial info is open to those who call and set up a face to face appointment. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2183 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
Public record would show how much is Pastor Troy mortgage. It does not matter if the home has appreciated or depreciated. Numbers are numbers, they do not change. We bought our home for almost $150,000. Though the home has appreciated to almost $600,000. The paper does not say so, it is still at the price of what we bought. The mortgage will also show if he has taken out any equities of his home. When we bought our home, we can ONLY be qualified for $150,000 loan. BASED on our income. The house we bought is now at $600K worth and we certainly do not qualify for a $600K home. It does not mean our income has increased. Simply because the house has appreciated. IF Pastor Troy bought his home at $1.5 million , if that is his mortgage, then his salary should be around $600,000 or $700,000 more or less. I am waiting for Ulyankee if she can pull out his mortgage from public records so we should know how much really he is receiving. And if that is his salary then why in the world is he driving a BMW SUV that is not his when he can surely afford one ? But thats a question for later on. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Has anyone called yet? Don't you think that would be the Chrisian thing to do? What do you have to lose? | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 842 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
cd999 - what is your deal? Are you one of EN's young women servants? | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 843 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
Think about it... Is it better to buy a bmw with reported income or to have someone else finance it for you under the table... I don't know the guy and I couldn't really care less. But, your testimony about his house and how he is financing his car are making things worse. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2184 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
cdl999 I was thinking of calling him after christmas, but then again, I have called a few EN/VCF leaders couple of years ago and they lied to me. So I don't know if calling Troy will make a difference. People who steals or misuse funds always lies . SO if they said something then later they will deny it. And I have no proof, its his word against mine. So, thinking about it, I rather do an email so at least I have proof that is what your pastor Troy said. I have an email to back it up which he can't deny later on. It does work tremendosuly for me in the past when a VCF leaders can never deny what was said to me because it was on an email. So how does that sound ? Email sound good to you and Pastor Troy ? | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4390 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
But, your testimony about his house and how he is financing his car are making things worse. So true. This is life in the EN bubble lc20. The slumbering sheep don't even know what they are revealing. In this person's mind, it was meant as a defense. In the real world, it has a pungent odor. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3089 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.191.37.107 |
I don't know about that Hatter, it makes sense to me, how about you buy a Lamborghini and I can drive it but you get to own it? Sounds like a terrific plan. The way I figure it I have more influence on EN then Pastor T. and I am working for reform so I want an upgrade from a BMW SUV. I'm entitled. Merry Xmas you crazy loons. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4391 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
how about you buy a Lamborghini and I can drive it but you get to own it? And I thought I was gonna surprise you for Christmas. You figured it out! It is just another way that these sheep are deceived. They are told that this is God's blessings on their pastor, but in reality, it is added salary, under the table. My car payment money is TAXED---part of my salary, part of the family budget. Ministers who participate in this kind of thing are participating in a scheme, and passing it off on the blessings of God. Wake up and smell the coffee 999. And Merry Christmas. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1472 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
the things are very simple: normaly a non-profit-organisation that lives from free gifts and contributions of its members and friends has the moral duty to show transparency in making the incomes/expenses accesable for them. in our church they do this. in EN they did not do this. the most you could see was a sheet with a general position called "salaries" and a number. you could not figure out who earned what. another position was honorariums or rent. but - and thats what you know only when you are on the inside of the circle, so to say - part of the pastors salary was the rent of his flat. so, in this example, pastor earned a part of the "rent-position" (namels the rent for his flat - which made it easier with taxes) and then, additionaly he earned a part of the "salaries-position". and, thats what people did not know, pastor recieved honorariums when he was preaching outside (and sometimes he was quite often outside, earning honorariums additional to his salary and rent, while we of his "young people" preached on Sunday in church, thinking what an honour it is...) so if you have been at the meetings, where they presented this great sheets, you knew as much AFTER the meeting as before: you knew nothing. and people who knew things, and questioned it or tried to stop it, got kicked out of church, .. the evangelical church, that i am attending now, is much more transparent. everyone knows the salary of the pastor. as well as all other expenses and incomes... and thats good so. everything is transparent. a biblical church is not a secret society with hidden things. only people who have to hide something fear/ hate transparency... i cannot and do not know whether Troy is someone like this or not, but one thing is for sure: IF he is like this, he cannot hide forever. people will find out... | ||
| calgarystampede New member Username: calgarystampede Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 143.182.124.3 |
i am also seeking information on the church split that took place last year at desert life church. about 80 people split the church including troy's associate pastor. does anyone have any details? | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Why don't you ask him since you are so bold? The fact is that you will not because you are scared and hurt. Right? You are just scared. Stop hiding and call him. How are things in the city of Chandler? I mean, can't you just drive down and ask him? | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Does anyone have any info on Calgary? I heard that................ | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1665 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
The public records show that the deed was filed more than once on different dates. This often happens when someone refinances a home. According to a public records database I subscribe to, it was originally purchased in 10/2003 for just over $1 million, as posted above (the deed was filed in 2004): OWNERSHIP INFORMATION Owner: JOHNSON TROY K JOHNSON DENISE Property Address: 9834 E VOLTAIRE DR 76 SCOTTSDALE AZ 85260-8872 Mailing Address: 9834 E VOLTAIRE DR SCOTTSDALE AZ 85260-8872 Assessor's Parcel Number: 217-50-810 State: ARIZONA County: MARICOPA SALES INFORMATION Seller: TARO PROPERTIES Sales Date: 10-00-2003 Sales Price: $1,060,500.00 Deed Type: GRANT DEED Recorded Date: 02-23-2004 Document Year: 2004 Document Number: 000000176300 Maricopa County's assessor's office has it listed as being purchased in 9/2004 for just over $861K. The most recent date the deed was recorded was 3/30/2005. So technically, yes, the property was purchased in 2005. But it was ORIGINALLY purchased in 2003 for just over $1 million. Since these are public records that anyone can examine I am posting this publicly. This isn't confidential info but publicly available info. While churches in the US, including Desert Life, are not obligated to report their finances to anyone, ministries and churches wishing to join the ECFA are required to make audited financial statements available to anyone who asks. Every Nation has promised to join the ECFA. Champions for Christ has promised to join the ECFA. So far, they have not. Is Desert Life still affiliated in some way with Every Nation or with Champions for Christ? Also, whether churches and ministries choose to reveal their finances or not, they are still obligated to follow the laws governing non-profits, which means that principals can't engage in inurement, have to report excess benefit transactions as income, etc. This is part of the issue behind the Senate investigation of several high-profile ministries... whether they have used their constitutional protections to hide prohibited activity. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1510 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.170.6.148 |
Hi All Catching up, Thank you Matt for jogging my memory, about MCM and the housing. I thought it was odd that there such a great push, especially in East Lansing to get the pastor a house. We looked at many houses, most people in the church were living in apartments at the time.AS I recall the push was from Gainesville to help shield some of the monies in case of law suits , as at that time a few were forming, and others were coming.} | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1511 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.170.6.148 |
Hi Ul, So if I understand what you are saying, house was sold by grant deed in 03 for One million sixty e thousand five hundred but that was not recored until 04, in Feb. It was then purchased in Sept of 04 at 861k, then recorded in 3 of 05. What was on the deed that was recorded last, whose name and amount? thank you} | ||
| calgarystampede New member Username: calgarystampede Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 143.182.124.3 |
That is really funny... Chandler??? Really??? I won't even respond to that one. What a joke. You won't answer any of our questions, cdl999, but only try to guess who I am. I guess if our posts didn't have any merit, they wouldn't haven't drawn you out. Keep guessing and have a Merry Christmas everyone. | ||
| calgarystampede New member Username: calgarystampede Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 143.182.124.3 |
That is really funny... Chandler??? Really??? I won't even respond to that one. What a joke. You won't answer any of our questions, cdl999, but only try to guess who I am. I guess if our posts didn't have any merit, they wouldn't haven't drawn you out. Keep guessing and have a Merry Christmas everyone. | ||
| calgarystampede New member Username: calgarystampede Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 143.182.124.3 |
That is really funny... Chandler??? Really??? I won't even respond to that one. What a joke. You won't answer any of our questions, cdl999, but only try to guess who I am. I guess if our posts didn't have any merit, they wouldn't haven't drawn you out. Keep guessing and have a Merry Christmas everyone. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1473 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
EN is scanning FactNet for entries, and then leading the informations to the persons and leaders that are talked about. so my guess is, that the EN guys who are scanning the board led the information about this topic to Mr.Troy, and he gave this information further. so we have the possibility that cdl999 either is Troy himselve, or, thats what i believe, a close person, perhaps someone in ministry, or at least working for him somehow. ip tracking shows me also, that the poster is conected to the iNet either personally or via the provider in phoenix, arizona. this all is not very important, but its interesting, because it confirms my thoughts. however - cdl999, i can understand, that its difficult for you posting and reading here, specially because their are some accusations against Troy, a person, taht you seem to apprechiate for some reasons (if you are not Troy in person). still, you are very welcome here. i do hope, that this can be an honest discussion. btw... merry christmas to everyone! | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Robert, You are correct. I live in Phoenix, Az and I know Ps Troy very well. Thanks for you kind spirit. I can see that you care about the truth and not about attacking people personally. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
I have always been an Intel fan! | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
They offer great internet service to employees. | ||
| calgarystampede New member Username: calgarystampede Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 72.223.24.82 |
Haha... Keep guessing. The is more than one way to skin a cat. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Who are you talking to Calgary? How do you know I am referring to you??????????????????????????????????????? | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4392 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
999, most folks in here do not intend to attack you. But I have learned, after my association with Maranatha many years ago, that it is not wrong to question things. The website for your church claims about 200 adults, teens and children. Therefore one can assume that not all of those 200 have an income. My question...if indeed your pastor's income is in the area that has been reported, along with the home that he lives in, along with a BMW gratis, is al of this in line with what other churches with that type of membership provide for their pastor? Merry Christmas to you... and God bless. Hatter | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2185 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
Let me get this straight, Troy Johnson bought his home for a little over $1 million in 2005. THAT MEANS his income should have been around $500,000 a year. With 200 people ????????????? And he does not own that BMW SUV that he is driving ???? AND you tell me there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT ???? Golly, I am looking at another Phil Bonasso fiasco in the making. That is exactly what we went through with Phil Bonasso. I do not care who that letter addressed to. The content is already a problem. That will not fly by anybody in my my former church any longer because everybody woke up . By the way, YEA I WANT TO TALK TO HIM. Tell Troy Johnson , here is my email address. ANNIEGREY@MSN.COM | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2186 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
Phil Bonnaso and his lakey have always said "obey your leaders" . Till everybody found out he stole over $ 3 million , all the money for the building funds GONE !! Does Troy Johnson has other incoming income, if he has then he won't have a problem telling me right ? There is simply no way for a 200 members to make $500,000 from the church unless he is stealing or doing inurement. The only way LEGALLY is that he is making that kind of money is because he has a business on the side or some other income aside from the church. I would suggest that you talk to the associate pastors and tell them how much Troy Johnson might be making based on his mortgage. Then we'll see what will those associate pastors say. (Message edited by Ginger1 on December 24, 2007) | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2187 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
When Phil Bonasso was makng $600,000 a year, Phil hid that from everybody, I mean literally everybody. That include the associate pastors , people etc. ALL the top leaders in EN does not know that. Phil was Stealing the whole time. It was when Phil step down, everything came out in the open. NOBODY believes that income is a private issue. Especially when it is a QUESTIONABLE INCOME. Troy Johnson income should be KNOWN to ALL the elders of the church, people, ALL the top leaders in the church and associate pastors. Let see what they will say about that. They should start investigating where did that income come from because by experience, NOBODY SHOULD HAVE A BLIND TRUST ANY LONGER . We were Broadsided by Phil Bonasso, and the way I see it , it looking more like Phil Bonasso more and more. yea , Phil Bonasso has a business, but a failing business. He did not make any money from his travel agency. So if Troy Johnson has a business on the side, that business better be successful, Thats why the investigation. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Hmmmm, it seems that calgary decided to change computers. I wonder why? | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 16 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Thanks for your honesty, Ginger, I will pass your email to Ps. Troy. At least you demonstrate a willingness to listen. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 17 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Matt, You are absolutely right about asking questions...and for the most part that is what you have done. I will answer your specific questions after Christmas. Have a merry one!}}} | ||
| andre New member Username: andre Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
Why cant a pastor have some form of wealth before he answer the call to serve the Lord? Troy Johnson was a national secular recording artist with RCA records and Motown that had a top twenty hit in the 80's and God changed his life and than he became a Christian music recording artist, releasing several albums before he could no longer deny his calling to full time ministry! Does he need to become an indigent? Why cant a Pastor receive a gift openly and up front from one of his members of the congregation as a form of gratitude and love since the member owns several dealerships and wants to bless his pastor with a Dealer car (VW's or BMW's)?If any of you would continually refuse a gift from a friend openly would it not be rude to block the gifters blessing and deny him use of his spiritual gift of giving? Desert life Church was one of the first churches to leave EN because of all the abuse and improprieties that some of the leadership has exuded over a period of time, sadly to say. As a member of Desert Life Church I am humbly happy to say we are a God fearing church that takes the integrity of Gods church very seriously,the body of Christ is not to be made a mockery! The Leadership and Board of Desert Life with honest respect is consciously aware and actively pursuing Christ like behavior to stay above reproach because of past affiliations. No one that has been given the gift of salvation would want to be disqualified. In today's world it is hard to please everyone even though we need only to please the "All Mighty One". I know we all have to be conscious on how we steward what God has blessed us with so we are not perceived as vain and lustful for the things of this world, thus possibly causing people to stumble. We have to constantly be diligent because of the ramped abuse throughout the evangelical Christian world. Stampede or anyone!!!! who can conjure up rumors, cast judgement, slander,spew venom on a man that is a pastor(and by the way is a very difficult and unrewarding in the natural sense because of cases like this one)... who his serving the Lord and a church body with the power and grace of God help change lives , mend broken marriages etc.... obliviously you were hurt or offended causing bitterness in you heart. Needless to say you should be ashamed to call yourself a man or woman of God in fact I am ashamed and embarrassed for you and I would probably guess your pastor would feel the same. Please stop and repent before you are just consumed by hate!!!! Proverbs 18:17 says that it is important to not judge a matter until you have heard both parties in a dispute. It says the first to present his case seems just until his neighbor comes and questions him. 1 Timothy 5:19 says not to entertain an accusation against an elder (pastor) unless it is brought by 2 or 3 witnesses - witnesses are those present in a matter not merely receivers of offense Luke 17:2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. God Bless And Merry Christmas! | ||
| andre New member Username: andre Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
To Ginger, Matt and Stampede You are welcome to fellowship with us a on Jan. 12th 2008 at Desert Life Church for our State of the Church Address which the board will disclose the churches full financial's(that includes pastoral and staff salaries along with budgets for 2007 and 2008)etc.... Out of integrity and respect for spiritual family and congregation I don't feel the need or obligation to post our churches business since none of you except cdl999 are members who believe and has sown into the vision and direction that God has placed in our church families heart. But if you really care and are searching for truth, we would gladly welcome you along with your friends and family. God Bless!!!!!!!! | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1474 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
hi andre, and thanks for posting here. no one says, that people may not be wealthy. its just the question about, whether walth should be the concern of a leader and the question about how does someone become wealthy. at the places i have been, pastors became wealthy, by abusing the churches, by abusing people, by tricking with taxes, by running after the rich, etcetc... wealth was the main concern of some of these guys, hiding it as "Gods blessing", while in fact they where tricking out the bucks of peoples pockets nearly like scam artists... if you read a little bit around in this board, you will see that all of us have been long years members of churches in EN or MCM (thats the "mother" of EN). many of us have been in leading positions, some of us even pastors and churchplanters. somehow we have experienced abuse in this church environement, and many of us have seen very, very concerning things regarding finances, abuse of people, dishonesties, etcetc... nearly all of us have tried to solve the matter on a personally way: talk to the leaders and pastors about the things that are concerning. we have witten letters, talked endless hours personally to them, did our researches... their stratgegy has always been the same: - first they pretended that there was no problem, but only a personal problem with the person questioning things (we have been labeled (Izebel, bitter, relous, disobedient,...). some have been kicked out of church imediately. or been isolated, blacklabeled, slandered about and mobbed out of the group. - if the concerns where shared by a group of people in the church, the problem was shifted on the group with the same arguments and results... - sometimes they eveyn would agree with your concerns and say "you are so right, but we know these issues and we are on the way to change these things". I personally was told this in the regards of the affiliaion with Wagner, in regards of Laffons false prophecies and ideas ("the apostle defines people"), in regards of the financial excesses that some high ranked leaders had---... they said they will post a yearly audit, they said they will join a certain group outside of EN to proof financial accountability... but at the end: NOTHING of these things EVER HAPPENED! it was a waste of time to talk to them! they did not and they will not change their structures! | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1475 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
i have seen and heared how bad so called leaders have talked about people who served for many years in the church, who have given time and money into the church... i had to listen to lies in an attempt to cover facts or fallen leaders... all these things have de-illusionised many of us, specially about EveryNation and its affiliated. someof us have given a great amount of time to research to find out WHY a "church" can be so abusive and loveless towards individuals. why is it possible that men who call themselves leaders and apostles fall into adulery, greed (which is a biblical disqualification for leafership) and abuse...? we have discovered that the roots of EN are in MCM, a cultlike abusive group found and led by Bob Weiner. The theological roots are in Peter Wagners "New Apstolic Reformation" - a whole bundle of heresies, that first where spread by the "New Order of the Latter Rain" in new cloths (like "Sheperding", "authority and submission", "dont touch the anointed... only to name few" etcetc...) many of us had to pick up the peaces of their lives after 10, 15 and more years in this abusive environement, and now off course, we question certain social behaviour and things, like the ones mentioned here, when we see them. its nothing personal against you pastor or church. its just that the red lights go on and the alarm bells ring, when we hear or read certain things... please stay here if you feel like this, and engage in an honest discussion. please understand, that some of us look on the things from an other angle. its not necessarily "evil" or "bitter" or what ever you like to call it, to make it easier for yourselve going on distance from it. its just the view from outside. we had these things in our lives before. we have seen the results. and ow after years, we see things differently, in my opinion more healthy. clean from false submission theologies, that see the act of questioning something already as a sin. therefore you might hear things and see reactions, you dont like or dont know. just dont label the people here "bitter", etcetc... thats the language of the abuser. you dont need to do this. lets talk honest and with respect with each other. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1476 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
again too many words, sorry... the only reason i am telling this is, that you know where we are coming from... Peace ! | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 910 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.247.157.167 |
Hello andre, That was a good post, for the most part. If you guys are serious about pastor Troy, do check out those links I referred to please. There are occasional posts that have a certain veiled or unveiled hate to them, but generally speaking hate and bitterness do not dominate this board. I came to factnet as an EN defender 1 year ago, and had predetermined that pretty much all these people were were bitter babies. After much dialogue, I realized that I was wrong, and that there was a wide variety of people here with a wide variety of experince and insight into EN. Having personally been involved with them for many years, and experiencing some of the dark side, and seeing the facts and hearing the stories about what went on and at times continues, I see a place for factnet the most people on the inside just can't see. One thread or post can't possibly contain all of the information that legitimizes these threads, but as one who does not view EN as a cult and is very middle of the road concerning most things here, I woukdn't lump aeveryone together much. One things for sure, this is not a church and not every poster is always a christian even. We get variety. All in all, view this as an opportunity. When one searches the internet for information on EN, factnet always comes up. Most individual indicted here at EN central, or anywhere else never defend themselves and when facts and testimonies are posted, they have some weight. I have no problem with a gift of a car (I would like one and would take it) or a wealthy man pastoring. I have a problem with a pastor preaching a wealth gospel and getting rich through it. Sounds like that is not Pastor Troy, and that is good. You've already made a good defense of him to a point, and if everything is as you say, it's a great opportunity to both clear his name and establish his lack of tie in to EN so he doesn't get lumped in there, unless he wants to. Overall I've seen mostly questions about who he is and about his stuff and as they are answered, he will slowly sink into into internet oblivion here unless he earns his way back up top. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4393 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
999, a full financial discloser is one sign of a healthy church. And if your pastor has acquired a nice portfolio from his prior work, I have no problem with that. My problem only comes from the wealth gospel, where ministers use the gospel to justify a truly hedonistic lifestyle. Merry Christmas! | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 844 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
Hi Andre, Merry Christmas. I have a few reactions to your post. You said: Needless to say you should be ashamed to call yourself a man or woman of God in fact I am ashamed and embarrassed for you and I would probably guess your pastor would feel the same. Please stop and repent before you are just consumed by hate!!!! My reaction: Calm down. It's Christmas. Most of us here have long since matured past the acceptance of shaming from people who are trying to change our behavior. You said: Desert life Church was one of the first churches to leave EN because of all the abuse and improprieties that some of the leadership has exuded over a period of time, sadly to say. My thoughts: I checked your web site and under "The Growth Track" you still have all the EN books starting with the purple book. Did you leave EN before or After Rice was voted out as president? It seems to me that the churches leaving EN are doing so because they are more loyal to Rice than to EN. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the churches leaving EN now will regroup and form a Bethel denomination so Rice can have his control (money) back. Do you know if Troy still considers Rice his spiritual authority? | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2188 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
Andre, would the full disclosure be posted on your website ? I would love to see or have a copy of that. That never happened when we were at phil Bonasso's church. The leaders always say to simply trust the leadership. Then we all got broadsided by Phil Bonasso. I just do not simply trust any of EN/VCF leadership any longer. I was not broadsided just once by several times by VCF leaders also. So its not the issue of bitterness any longer its a matter of dishonesty among EN/VCF Leadership. A common problem. If that cannot be posted on our website, can you at least email a copy of that full disclosure to me ? Its Anniegrey@msn.com I do not know how successful is Troy Johnson, but a christian recording artist does not earn as much back in the 80's, even the successful ones vs. the secular recording artist. How successful was he back then ? Sorry for all the questions, I have a lot of more question, if he can email me then it would be better. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2189 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
Here is another problem what we have with Phil Bonasso, he has his people, including associate pastors to start soliciting money because he wanted to bless his wife a top down Mercedez Benz coming from out of state. And here are the stupid EN church elders and leaders start calling people in the church soliciting. And here Phil Bonasso can well afford to buy his wife a Mercedez. If those people in the church wants to bless Troy Johnson without Troy soliciting nor hint, I am fine with that. As long as they done it out of the willingness of the heart. VCF leaders /pastors are still dropping hints of what they want. Some even asked for a TREO phone from me. That was just couple months ago, I was very disgusted. Thats not a need any longer, they only wanted that so they can "brag" how successful they are financially. Its for their ego. (Message edited by Ginger1 on December 25, 2007) | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1477 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
LOL - i want an iphone, ginger, do you know how to get one...  just kidding | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 845 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.202 |
haha... the last time an EN pastor did that to me, I left him an store flyer with a sale price and delivery options for what he wanted and said good luck! It took me thousands of dollars before I learned the manipulative motive behind that type of question and stopped letting "God be a blessing" to him through my ignorance. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1479 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
you rebellios person. i feel in my spirit, that you have to do a discipleship course with me.. you certainly have missed the lessons about (my) leadership and submission under (my) authority... | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1512 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.172.229.229 |
Robert and Lc, Ha, ha , Don't forget to add if you bless me God will bless you as I am a Levite , and you are not!!} | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 846 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.202 |
you guessed it... I was labeled as having "a problem with the authority God put over me" and having "a problem with money"... It doesn't matter what you give them. When they push you to the limit where you say, nope I have given you enough, You get these labels. If anyone in EN is holding out for some kind of congratulations for finishing their hugely sacrificial building fund pledges so they can maybe buy themselves some of the basic necessities they had been going without in life, don't hold your breath. If you do a three year pledge and stop giving when your pledge is compete, you will get these labels. Once they know you have it, they want it and they will do all the name calling/manipulation they can think of to get it. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1480 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
yeah...YOU are the one having the problem with money... LOL... but the guys asking for it are having a problem with the ten commandements, specially with the one that say "Thou shall not want your neighbours..." | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 849 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
Calgary, My pastor got some guys from the church to paint his house - and then complained about the job! He was talking away like he had given them some great opportunity and they had blown it. Trust me, if you had painted his house, you would have been in worse trouble if you had made any mistakes and they would still not have helped you with anything. So, good choice. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1556 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
Sorry, but following Andre's post, I just have to ask this question: What do you think Jesus would have done if he had been given a substantial financial gift during his time on earth...say, an amount of money equivalent to the price of a BMW or Mercedes? It's not a question of right or wrong but a question of appropriateness. Why drive a Mercedes when a Nissan Sentra would do? Why not drive something moderate and be able to give the balance of cash to a charity or a family that really could use it. It's not necessarily the make or model of the car...it's the sense of entitlement that's so disgusting. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2190 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.218 |
Oh not only did he asked for a TREO phone, but also a pair of brand new leather shoes. IPOD and some other high tech gadget . A friend of mine , they already left, their VCF pastor were asking for a brand new shoes, not to mention this VCF pastor is able to get brand new one himself. But he would call the people in the church and tell them his wants , not needs. Then another friend, who felt bad for this VCF pastor children, gave the pastor money, to at least take the children out to movies, which she verbally told that to the pastor, instead, these VCF pastors, took the money and went to get a SPA for themselves. I can tell you stories after stories of these abusive tactics that is still happening right now in VCF. And yes, I do agree with lablady, why the extravagant stuff ? Some of the people have businessess and these VCF pastors expect these businessmen to give their tithes and offerings to them so they will be "blessed" . Not to mention a lot of those businesses are either closing down or have closed down or struggling. A friend of mine decided to elope, the elders and the pastors got upset because why they did not get married in VCF church. According to the VCF pastors the reason why they want these people to get married to VCF church is so these people would be blessed in their marriage. The truth is, they want these people to get married in VCF is so these VCF pastors can get free food and display their ego of luxury items. Not to mention some of those people who did got married in VCF are now separated and are living with someone else. So much for that blessings. I can tell you stories after stories of these type of manipulative tactics in VCF or EN under Phil Bonasso or Jim Laffoon. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1481 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
we had a missionaire in the Innsbruck church for many yars. an older lady, a real treasure. nice and warm charakter. she had to clean the church and in the pastors house. whash his socks, etcetc... this went on for several years, no one really realized what was going on, but in my opinion she got abused quite badly. think about coming to middleeurope to do missions, and instead they decive you into believing, that if you whash thew pastors clothes and clean their house you fullfill your mission? another guy who was in leadership, and is pastor himselve now, not in EN though, was doing the garden of the pastor. he has a bad back and therefore in his profession, he does not do manual labour anylonger, but in pastors house he did the garden, pastor standing next to him an looking at him working. another friend of mine is electrician, and you guess. always when someone from the leadership needed lamps on the roof, they called him (usually only then). i dont understand much about electricity, but i was always hanging up my lamps myselve... a friend of mine had a nice cloth an showed it to the pastors wife in church. she said thank you and took it into her handbag, assuming that it was another present (LOL - how embarassing). there was always this expectancy, and a lot of people where stupid enough to fullfill it. i have no problem helping someone with labour, finances or clothes, or whatever,when its needed (ie when a church gets started, and a pastor has no real or just a basic income)---but these things never stoped. at the end he earned more that most of us (but he had no education), traveled to receive honorariums, hang around at the fitness studio, but still needed others living his physical life (doing his gardens, washing his socks...) its just simply MEAN. and people who give into this are STUPID. its kind of hollywood starmaniac thingy... a unhealthy adorance of men. not good, not good... LOL- and the BEST thing is. this certain pastor was once complaining bout the bad work ethics, that we here in austria have, compared to southafrica! (btw austria is the 4th wealthiest nation in the EU) LOL - imagine this: he was sitting in fittness studio the whole morning, his household was done by others, in church a lot of people who worked fulltime in a secular profession, did the most work, on sundays and on some evenings he was popping up "preaching" and "teaching" us how to be christians... this was his workethics... but in his opinion our workethics was worse then his...hahahaha - i tell you i am still laughing about this one...  | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1482 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
he told every person the story, that benefited him most... if he needed are wanted something then he was the needy and poor guy. if he wanted to dominate a situation he was always the expert (he knew everything better then others). if he wanted to be with the rich, he was sudenly driving mercedes... a real artist?! | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1483 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
the sad thing about all of this is, that there are church environements, that make it nearly necessary to be like this. its like Darwins evolution-theory: only the "fittest" survive. therefore people who have not the same succes as the ones they compare themselves with (succes is always a very relative thing) they start pretending success (which ofte results in a lifestyle full of lies and exaggerations)... and its sad that these kind of personlities get rewarded in such environements, at least for a season, with possibilities, support, positions and titles, until enough harm is done, that leadership cannot stand behind them anylonger. while the quite ones, the people who dont scream, who are not cool, who dont exaggerate about what they do, often the ones with charakter get ignored... humility is not recognized, because the false leaders are not humble themselves (in their pride they have created their own artficial church environement, their "movement" which is better then the others, and put themselves in charge over it - like King Nimrod, who build Babel and the other cities)... and then the questions start: what went wrong with this church? why did it happen, that leader X drew too much money out of it? why are people leaving? thats the curse of sensationalism, of adorance of charisma and failable me. its the curse of pride. if people would build their churches and movements based on the biblical patterns for leadership (charakter) and not on secular methods (charisma, appearance, rethorics, influence, money, words, management-mehods...) then there would not be such a damage... | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1513 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.133.152.245 |
Hi Robert, I would agree with you ! These churches are built on soulish connections. I see that difficultly some one has separating the two, the Spiritual and the natural. I see this as in the case of our brother X-man who explains that he feels a debt of sorts to Leo. I think that he is entwined with being saved by Leo, a pastor. This can become a soulish tie to someone because of the gospel as promoted by this group. I think that this is why some people do not speak out in the group, MCM/MSI/EN. It is the most insidious part of this group. It lingers long after we are gone. It is the Lord who draws people to Him through His Spirit. MCM/MSI/EN trys to take the credit. They put their confidence in the flesh of man.This is their view point, it shows through the extremes in the ministry, huge tithes and shepherding, the good old buddy system. I think that the lavish life style ,in relation to their charges comes out of entitlement, which can be seen in Leo dropping a staff member wages, as he could now get his shirts professional done. The budget was that tight, as shown to the elders. Although his mortgage was paid by his hand maidens living in his basement, which was not discussed at this time.. This works because people feel this soul tie, and accept the system even defend it. The entitlement functions on this level, as the leader say that that are on a mission from God, and they can't be touched. They lord over the laity , as rulers. So they ask and expect tribune from the laity. They feel this is their due. (Message edited by coppertree on December 26, 2007) (Message edited by coppertree on December 26, 2007) | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Godbless Calgary!!! | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 851 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
"But even if one soul is saved from hell by the efforts of leaders who have a many weaknesses and faults, it was worth the effort." This is ends justifying the means logic... I don't buy it. How many souls are lost and damaged through the prosperity/authority message? Do we really need a count of how many damaged lives were worth the life of the one soul saved? I think God is leading people to Himself in spite of the prosperity message not through it. Calgary, I hope you find a balanced church that meets your needs. God bless. (Message edited by lc_20 on December 26, 2007) | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 19 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
lc_20, don't you get it. He said that he made the stuff up. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 852 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
So, This pastor doesn't drive a bmw given to him by a member of the church and does not live in a million dollar home? How did you know Calgary was a "He"? I looks like your efforts to identify him were successful. Did you apply the slander threat? Enjoy your money. (Message edited by lc_20 on December 26, 2007) | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1514 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.167.52.88 |
We have seen this many times. Many who watch here have viewed this over time, they intimidate if can. It is a sad thing. (Message edited by coppertree on December 26, 2007) | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
No one has been intimidated. It's called the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Some of you should pray for the same before you speak about matters that you have no idea about. Calgary spoke freely. What is sad is that some of you are so hurt and fractured that you automatically assume the worst about everyone. All of your suspsicion and hate will eventually catch up with you all. I pray God's mercy over you. Again, as Andre mentioned, we are having our state of the church address in January. The leaders will gladly sit down with anyone who wants to talk. We have nothing to hide. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
BTW, surely if Calgary was intimidated by anyone at DLC he would have told you guys. Then you could freely post it all over the web. However, your assertions are simply not true. Also, lablady2 wrote, "What do you think Jesus would have done if he had been given a substantial financial gift during his time on earth...say, an amount of money equivalent to the price of a BMW or Mercedes?" Here is your answer: "6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor." 10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial." (Matt 26:6-12) Also, the BMW is owned by a person in the church who owns a dealership. Has anyone ever heard of a program car? If so, this is what he drives. The car will be driven by someone for a certain amount of miles and then turned in. The car will not be sold until a certain time. This means that someone will drive the car regardless of whether Ps Troy does or not. lablady also wrote, "Why drive a Mercedes when a Nissan Sentra would do? Why not drive something moderate and be able to give the balance of cash to a charity or a family that really could use it." My response to this is to ask you the question why a nissan sentra? Why not a bicycle? Why not a motor-scooter? Where do you draw the line? You are going beyond scriptural bounds insisting that someone has to drive a certain car to be "above reproach." BTW, Ps Troy is currently helping a family in the church who are in need by loaning them a car. Don't read you experience (whatever that may legitmatley be) in to this context. You simply do not have all of the facts. Again, if you want proof, come to our church in January and the elders will disclose whatever you need. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3090 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.103.37 |
Yeah, remember the Texas Indian guy called Yakapo. He was making people in Texas unhappy and he knew Rice and would talk to him in the past and he was just as adamant as Stampede, then poof he was gone. Then there was a young man who Rice was fond of who posted some slightly critical things about Bethel, like a man standing up and warning the church that Rice would steal it from pastor Ray? This young man was highly favored by Rice and had been told by him he could lay hands on anyone he wanted, then poof he was gone. Then a few years a go there was a guy that posted that Rice was his friend and he defended him and talked about how Rice Broocks took him out for a meal when he was down. He posted for awhile then deleted everything, poof he was gone too. And now calgarystampede? True he did not mention Rice but he was directly under a favored (10 year) disciple of him named Pastor T. So if this Pastor T had not had a reasonably successful secular music career would that close mentoring relationship have existed? Hmmmmm, well that is another story I am sure. I just wonder how much behind the scene stuff goes on to get people to shut up? Plus there is a lot of exteme fear confronting these people tied to the very top that run this thing like their Moses or something. But here is the thing, they are not Moses and they institutionalize things into the ministry that Jesus would never permit. It is just interesting that's all. They can't shut old timers up but those near the very top who are a few years removed? No Problem. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Could it possibly be that Rice had a chance to talk it over with him? Maybe he found out that he was wrong? Have you ever been wrong about someone? | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3091 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.103.37 |
another thing cdl999 (how you chose that name is beyond me, it's an upside down 666 but whatever). You said why not a bicycle? that is a silly argument. You said in defense of the BMW: "6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor." Come on, comparing a pastor driving a free BMW to a woman getting Jesus ready for his burial is a bit much. My good friend JBK has got you beat though because he used the same scripture to justify Copeland having a 20 million dollar Cessna Citation with that scripture. How about a bicycle..... Puuullllleeeeeaaazzze! Your best argument is that a BMW dealer has only BMW's to lend out not Sentras. You know if I was a pro-athlete maybe I could save enough to open up a BMW dealership also. People are shut down from voicing dissent here and usually it is those that have not been gone that long. It is not about intimidation, it is most likely guys or gals getting a friendly call saying "what are you doing?", souls are at stake here, please talk to us privately, sure we have problems but were changing, don't air this out there in the open to a bunch of bitter ex Maranatha people. God loves you...., let us reason......., he has a plan for you...... Come on buddy, blah, blah, blah, we love you. They have to do this now because in the past they did not have the internet around. (40's theory) It's that type of talk that gets people to stop posting because they love the people their talking about but they just want them to change. Let us be real here. It is just as much about a demonic spirit of Fear associated with this ministry then it is about the Conviction of the Holy Spirit in many cases. We have been there done that, God bless cdl999. They almost got Big Tommy to shut up but he is like a big chubby bull in a China shop. Still they did a pretty good job shutting him up to. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3094 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.103.37 |
cdl999 you posted: Again, as Andre mentioned, we are having our state of the church address in January. The leaders will gladly sit down with anyone who wants to talk. We have nothing to hide. 40: are you going to talk about housing allowances? I remember (I think it was Champions for Christ) where people had huge salaries and housing allowances on top of that? | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3095 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 4.182.75.198 |
It doesn't matter, you got your main bad boy to shut up and for now, calgarystampede won't even take a peek in on what's posted here. I give you and A+. Are you sure you don't belong in the E/N Mother Hive? Very Impressive. Lot's of opportunities for a person like you . I 40 award you this cool medal which is primo and has exalted status over any music or athletic reward.  On the chance that calgarystampede is reading this. Yeah I have been convicted by the Holy Spirit posting here in the past but if your just uncomfortable or ill at ease, then that is not necessarily conviction of the Holy Spirit. It may be the normal feelings of human conflict. Elijah felt the same way. Calgarystampede I would rather have you as my pastor then the vast majority of those EN leaders who delude themselves. God Bless. (Message edited by 40days40years on December 27, 2007) | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3096 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 4.182.75.198 |
Okay Andre you said: Desert life Church was one of the first churches to leave EN because of all the abuse and improprieties that some of the leadership has exuded over a period of time, sadly to say. As a member of Desert Life Church I am humbly happy to say we are a God fearing church that takes the integrity of Gods church very seriously,the body of Christ is not to be made a mockery! 40 here, hey maybe your church figured out they could be their own mini EN church with out the pesky Tennessee oversight? I mean come on. Associate pastors washing cars and babysitting? We have read enough here to see that the leaders of Desert Life have drunk deeply into the ways of EN. The leader is a 10year, special project disciple of Broocks? Realistically, so what if this guy has broken from EN but lives the same way with the same philosophy, just like the bad boy breakaway guys in Louisiana? NO, you do not get off that easily here or your church after reading the stuff posted earlier on this thread. Nice try though, you also get a God Bless and have a happy new year. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1484 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
Please understand that I was deceived by the enemy, who says this was the enemy? why is it considered evil to be hurt and to try to deal with it, by questioning things? i dont get it. i mean, if you have done something unrightess in the whole thing, than i understand, that you listen to your conscience. but - hey - pastors are not God, and we may question them and the thngs they do, if we base it on the word of God of course... and this is not the enemy. however: God bless you! | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3097 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 65.54.98.30 |
exactly robert, you post here your open to anything. Recent members leaving are their main concern. Like Robert says: who says this was the enemy? Let us say a prayer. | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1666 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.108.233 |
I'm praying for calgary as well, that he is led by the Holy Spirit into the truth in Christ, since the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. With that Truth comes FREEDOM. In tone and content his last posts (if he is a he) reminded me a little of the notarized letter that the plaintiffs in the Nashville abuse case signed off on in settling their case. That letter was later distributed to EN pastors worldwide and also posted on BWOC's website. However, in that case it was as led by attorneys, not by the Holy Spirit. I pray that it's different for calgary. cdl999, my friend, I pray that you are also being led by the spirit of Christ, and that you are submitting to Christ alone as Head of the church. Pst. Troy and Pst. Rice are not the head of the church, delegated or otherwise, nor do they act for Him by proxy, despite what the Purple Book and other EN materials teach. We submit to Him and Him alone. He alone is our covering. The reason why I still occasionally post here is not because of personal hurts, but because the Lord has called me to remind the church that Jesus Christ alone is the Head of the Body of Christ. When I first started posting here, EN was clearly a church which had forgotten that Christ is the Head, and He shares His Headship with NO ONE. So many people have gotten hurt over the years thinking they are submitting to Him through submitting to their human leaders, and being abused or worse as a result. Leaders claiming that they have the same authority as Christ/God is one hallmark of a cult... and this is indeed something that EN leaders have taught and practiced in the past. I hope that your church has not. However, even though DL is not officially affiliated with EN doesn't mean that it no longer has EN's spiritual DNA, which harkens back to Maranatha Campus Ministries. I hope and pray that you are watchful for this spiritual heritage and that you are committed to rooting it out. This was a grave mistake that MSI (later EN) made, in thinking it could retain MCM's spiritual heritage, believing that it was of God and Scripture when it was not. It was instead the leading of a spirit of deception and bondage, as some of the former MCMers like coppertree, matt_hatter, and several others can attest. Thank you for the open invitation to your church meeting. I hope that among the items that your church will distribute will be an audited financial statement, which if you are planning on joining the ECFA is a requirement for ECFA membership. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 853 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
I saw this on the Desert life web site. Is this a surprise to anyone? Desert Life Church has a goal to raise $3.8 million over the next 3 years. They are accepting cash, real estate, jeweley, stocks and bonds... So, they can buy a building. How many members do they have 200? 200 people who are going to be in significant debt soon if they don't watch their wallets. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 854 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
Here is another little gem from their web site... clearly they are not cut off from EN. "Desert Life Bible Institute (DLBI) is an in-depth, two year, part-time Bible college. It is designed to equip students with Biblical knowledge and practical skill so that they may serve and reach people more effectively with the Gospel. The current curriculum is Every Nation Leadership Institute (ENLI)". | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
No,lc_20, the website clearly states the following: Desert Life Bible Institute Desert Life Bible Institute (DLBI) is a two year, part-time Bible institute. It is designed to equip students with biblical knowledge and practical skills so that students may know God more personally and serve Him more effectively. DLBI provides discipleship training and biblical teaching for people from all walks of life. Students will learn: - How to interpret/handle the Bible correctly (II Timothy 2:15) - How to defend the Christian faith confidently (I Peter 3:15) - How to communicate the Bible effectively (Ephesians 3:7-10) - How to develop a deep and accurate theology (Acts 20:26-27) - And much more… The current curriculum is Evangelical Training Association (ETA). A Certificate of Completion is earned and awarded, after all program requirements are met. (For further information about ETA, visit the website: www.etaworld.org) No matter how long you have been a Christian, you can always grow in knowledge, faith and service. At DLBI, you’ll make genuine friendships with classmates, have personal interaction with the pastors, elders and deacons of DLC, plus you’ll gain confidence as a leader for Christ. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
I will give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you were viewing the old website. The new site is www.desertlifechurch.com. Under the "ministries" tab you will find all the updated info you need. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 855 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.202 |
cdl999 That is encouraging. It is very difficult to believe that anyone discipled by Rice would be able to free themselves and their church from his abusive apostolic authority and teachings regardless of their relationship with EN especially with the testimony of a person clearly hurt by your pastor. Best wishes. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1491 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
http://www.desertlifechurch.tv/scottsdale/all_about_dlc.pdf | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 856 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.202 |
dcl999 Is this "Growth Track" which includes the EN purple book and other EN publications still in use at your church? It appears to be on your current web site. | ||
| cdl999 New member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
Honestly, some people in the church still use the "purple book," but it is not the main material for discipleship. Pastor Troy is more interdenominational in his outlook. He has a healthy ecumenical perspective that is not limited to one particular ministry (which, in my opinion was one of the problems with old-school morningstar). The church sells a number of resources from various orthodox (not Eastern Orthodox) perspectives. | ||
| cdl999 Junior Member Username: cdl999 Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.117.11.123 |
BTW, there is not much amiss in these materials. The problem is in how some people apply the passages/principles within. People abuse the Bible very often, but that does not mean that we should stop reading the Bible. I think that it is the association that bothers many, and to some degree I can understand why. | ||
| andre New member Username: andre Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
To All Just a little history on myself, I attended a MSI college campus bible study 15 yrs ago and at that meeting my life was changed!!!! The leader of that study was one of the main leaders of MSI. Unbeknownst to me Maranatha just dissolve because of numerous problems thus forming MSI. Throughout the years I attended many conferences and functions, building relationship with the leaders of the ministry as well as many other people and grew spiritually leaps and bounds by the grace of God. Even though I looked up to these men as spiritual mentors and trusted them I still new that my foundation was in Christ not in these men regardless of how gifted they were. I to have been hurt as well, I lost millions in business ventures with men I trusted and I have sown my time, my heart and my finances into that ministry and have no fruit to show for it ,except my own life. It hurts to know that my family and my church family couldn't benefit what God has entrusted me to steward and to sow into his Kingdom. I look back and say I did it out obedience and faith in Gods word, entangled with lack of prayer ,immaturity and bad stewardship. I could have blamed all the improprieties, the abuse of authority, misuse of funds and deceptive salaries that those leaders did but I realize that God is just and they will be held accountable. We can all talk about,the hurt,the pain and what was done wrong, but in that chaos we can all say we have received or seen great things .i.e.(salvation,changed lives,reconciled relationships and marriages,peacefulness and people set free from oppression and depression)I know I did!!!! I have frequently visited this blog in the past 4 to 5 years but have never posted until of recent. The Reason being, because of the potential danger of being wrong and falsely slandering,ruining a name and reputation of a church,leader,elder or pastor. The price is to great for just even one time. It has clearly happen in this case to Pastor Troy Johnson and to Desert Life Church congregation,staff as well as its leadership board. Calgarystampede has apologize for his false accusations and lies .i.e. lie #1 (he was not talking to a pastor on staff or speaking on the behalf of that pastor,neither was he contemplating leaving let alone washed his cars or cleaned is pool!)(RIDICULOUS) lie #2(There was no prophecy to the wealthy man to start a record label).I know both associates pastors and the wealthy man very well and they would tell you the same. Lie#3 (Ministering to the rich only. If anyone would do there homework one of the first ministries Pastor Troy ever started was to the homeless and the inner city and he still has an outreach through our church to the inner city called Jesus Walks.) Finally Calgarystampede starting this thread of deceit by using the past hurts of the men and women of this blog site and using its members to start and fuel this slander,(I repeat USING ya'll in this attempt!!) In the past 6 years we have officially been a church, which includes the years of EN affiliation, Pastor Troy,the leaders and this congregation has never been accused of any of these horrendous accusations before, until one person on Dec 14th 2007 decided to be malicious for a reason that he will have to deal with God for his sinful actions . I am not saying we are perfect but no church is perfect...where there's people there is poop!! | ||
| andre New member Username: andre Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 207.200.116.135 |
|
