| Author | Message | ||
     leftin1991 Intermediate Member Username: leftin1991 Post Number: 470 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.24.207.240 |
John 10:5, "And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." While it is true that people leave churches and cults all the time, for various reasons, there is no church group I have ever come across with such a revolving door constituency as NTCC, and few if any with such a high percentage of horror stories of abuse and maltreatment, given the relatively small size of this cult. The sheer volume of posts about this group clearly attests that NTCC, while attractive in many ways, is beguiling because it is a church not guided by the Spirit of the LORD, but by the will of an enterprising religious businessman who cares not for God's true sheep. Beats out the JWs by far, and they are certainly one of the more controlling cults out there. But the JWs at least have a more stable ministerial base, and a high percentage of grassroots lifelong members like my aunt. While JWs are a certainly a cult in most every sense of the word, at least they are not a family business under the ultimate control of just one man, as is NTCC. They have to brainwash the students and tell them 'There are no big I's & little you's' because that is just the opposite of how it truly is! NTCC is fundamentally a fiefdom. NTCC is more abusive and exercises more sick control over its people than do the JWs! Those who depart have a license from God, yea a command, to do so! Rev. 18:4, "Come out of her, My people...", saith the LORD. | ||
| imaskingwhy Junior Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Les, I am suprised that you have labeled NTCC as a "cult" in the true sense of the word. Myself and you were in during the same era, am I missing something here? Has the orginization evolved exponentially from a pentecostal holiness church into a cult since 1994? When I left it was evident that NTCC did have some cult like traits from a social perspective, however, doctrinally I did not find anything that would warrant the stigma of a cult. Has this changed? If NTCC is in fact a cult and in severe danger of hell fire, this would raise a barrage of lethal and legitimate questions. These enquiries would amount to interrogation on our previous life while in the "cult". I am specifically asking you to respond to me concerning this. I realize there may be numerous responses of which some are adlibs, but it is your response I wait patiently for. Bryan David Hill | ||
| ctyankee Intermediate Member Username: ctyankee Post Number: 182 Registered: 4-2007 Posted From: 204.194.37.241 |
Bryan, I am not going to answer for Les, but soon after I left I came across a website that described cult tactics. NTCC is guilty of 8 out of 10. This kind of rocked me back on my heels. Now, while I can't bring myself to label NTCC as a cult, they are guilty of cult tactics. So what do we label them as? A Christian church that ACTS like a cult? Or just a psuedo-christian church that is spiritually abusive? (By the way, you and I know each other, but I'm not ready to reveal my identity yet. Can I get your e-mail?) | ||
| bud Member Username: bud Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 72.165.55.126 |
ctyankee, You are right on the money. I had thought they were cultish for a long time before I would say that they are a cult, but the sad truth, as you have pointed out so well, is that NTCC is a cult. Remember how they used to say that one drink makes you a drunkard... "If it takes 10 drinks for you to get drunk and you drink one, that makes you a thenth of a drunk and you're still a drunkard." WEll, 8 out of 10.... one out of ten wouldn't be good, but 8?! I wish we could all say they have pure motives and are a wonderful church, but that just isn't true, and I can't tell you how many dear friends have been hurt by that "bunch". And ctyankee, you have done wonders for that individual that you've continued to befriend. Thanks for being REAL. Bud | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
ctyankee My email address is zappertoy@yahoo.com. I am interested in hearing from you. Bryan David Hill | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1903 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.106.60 |
Leftin1991; Well said, well done, well percieved! You're exactly right: the key to deliverance of God's good people in men's bad ministries is exactly that they will not continue to hear, believe, and follow the voice of strange Leaders. Even as such false ministers serve and bring in a strange god (Dan 11:39), so will the true God by His Word bring out His flock. "Those who depart have a license from God, yea a command, to do so! Rev. 18:4, "Come out of her, My people...", saith the LORD." You're right. I used to not actually personally promote people getting out of NTCC & HOP. I was not in the Brian and Tracey camp who actually advocated people getting out... NOW. However, you are right. ALL OF GOD'S PEOPLE are commanded by Him to depart such cutlish places. Even more so, we have an OBLIGATION to warn any of those attending, whether in person or on Factnet, of the truly adulterous nature of Davis' ministry, and that BY SCRIPTURE we are commanded to avoid such and keep no Christian company with them. Davis promotes and aproves dissolutions of rightful marriages and the ungodly joining of adulterous remarriages: there are many of Davis' ministers who are in the bonds of such adultery. Knowing this and them, we are commanded to avoid them. If any willfully know of such remarriages and Davis' part in them, then they have an obligation before the Lord to come out from among them... If they do not, but rather approve their ministering and bid them God-speed, then they become partakers of their sin (2 John 11) Very good post, sir. I comend your clear, clean, and exact representation of the sinfulness and destructiveness of Davis' cult-leading. People remain in and under his dominating rule to their own hurt. Period. And NO MORE TIME spent under that spirit of error is ANY GOOD for any person, especially Christian believers. There are far too many decent, sincere, and good Christian ministers in Jesus' church that feed and help us as God wills, than to be slowly but surely cultized, used, and abused for Davis' family profit. Despite what some people think: All ministers are NOT DOING IT, and Davis is not just another one of the good but 'flawed' folks out there just trying to do something for God. That is a lie, and a false accusation against those who are not so, and thankfully the good and decent ones are in the majority. But the Davis-types will perish or repent. | ||
| leftin1991 Intermediate Member Username: leftin1991 Post Number: 471 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 72.24.207.240 |
Bryan: 1990 was the year that I saw it happen, at least when the transformation became evident to me. As you will remember, that was when they stopped utilizing the Bible in the church services in St. Louis and Graham, not giving the location of sermon texts, and even attaching a stigma to those who persisted in bringing a Bible to church with them. It gave the clear message that they want you to listen to them whether you listen to God or not! Before that time I had seen some cultic issues, but it was at that point that I knew it was a waste of time, effort, resources and spiritual vitality to attend NTCC's services any longer. I began to prepare myself socially, financially, and psychologically to escape the cult. I was met with fierce resistance from all levels of leadership when it became known that I was visiting the holiness churches NTCC had related to from the late 1960s to the mid-1970s, but that only served to confirm my belief that attendance at NTCC was counterproductive to my personal goals as well as my convictions about the way people should be treated, especially by a "so-called" church. The primary people I was having to deal with at that time included G. Jordan, K. Gandy, R.W. Davis, and J. Olson. Before Steve Salaun and I made a trip to the Cincinnati area to visit a pastor (L.L. Collins, Pentecostal Highway of Holiness Church, 3470 Hamilton-Middletown Road, Hamilton, OH, 45011 www.holinessmessenger.com), who had preached an entire camp meeting at Lake of the Ozarks for NTCC in 1973, Jordan & Gandy came banging on my door (and windows!) at 7:AM on a Saturday, trying to coerce us not to go. To make a long story short, we went anyway but then had to meet the board and got our ministers' licenses suspended, as you know. After talking with nearly a dozen of R.W.'s former ministerial associates, either on the phone or in person, I knew before I ever left that NTCC is not just a church in cult's clothing, it is a CULT in church clothing! And again, it is not so much because of what they teach (although a large chunk of their doctrine also falls short), but it is the way they use and abuse people, marriages, and families that makes them a cult. I would have expected better treatment at the hands of the JWs! I only agree with about 35% of JW teachings, but I can't endorse nearly half of the garbage NTCC teaches either! See my thread, "21 False Doctrines of NTCC". tracts@juno.com | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Les I concur with virtually 100% of the problematic and troubeling attributes within NTCC expressed on Factnet. As you know quite well both you and I have wrestled with these issues even while we were in. One of the main reasons I left is becuase I don't like to be spoon fed and my concern for God's Word goes beyond the scope and boundaries set by know it all christians. It seems to be popular on this board to label this orgainization we were all apart of a "cult", however to me this is a serious issue. I am not and never have been driven by hopes of being popular, I thrive on being true to myself. With this in mind, I must point out some of the hard questions that have been ingnored thus far on this subject. Warning! it may be intrusive on our prior claim of "serving God" while in the "cult" and presently challenge our view of modern religion. In my estimation these questions I ask or equal to Pandora's box of evil. However, like the myth which offers hope along with evil, I believe for the sake of our past percieved Christian experience we better hope NTCC was not a cult. For all of you who choose to label NTCC a cult, I do understand how you have come to this conclusion based on a fresh look at the signs that mark a cult. NTCC has definitely aligned itself with the cults in vital areas. However I don't believe this to be the end of this subject but in fact the beginning. You will understand a little later why I have not yet crossed this threshhold. This will be the first of a series of imposing and critical questions I would like for those who believe they were in a cult to ask themselves. #1 Based on the fact that cults are a product of the devils work, where (in light of the judgment seat of Christ) do you see your works? In other words. As you "labored for Christ" in NTCC do you consider your work to be burned as hay and stubble or to survive the judgment and come forth as gold? Now, if you consider your work to be unto Christ and good as gold. What was that work and how did it not profit the cult which is the work of the devil? If in fact NTCC is a cult, we know that a cult is not the work of the Holy Spririt. So for those who believe you were in the devils work, are you ready to forfiet all and any reward a true christian gets for doing the true work of God? Bryan David Hill | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
#2 Based on the fact that Jesus is the Good shepherd and our heavenly father. For those of you who were saved in the "cult" which is the work of the devil I have a question for you. Do you have any resentment at all, that your birth into the family of God was in fact a birth into the hand of the devil to be used and abused? For those of us who at one time trusted God to lead us to His church and His people, how do we now claim that God led us to the blind which in turn led us into a ditch? How do we now ascribe what we once thought were the works of the Holy Spirit? Are you sure you want to impute it to the work of the devil? see Mark 3:29, "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin" because they said, "He has an evil spirit" (30). What they did was ascribe the works of the Holy spirit to the Devil. Be careful what you say. Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Luk 11:14 ¶ And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. Luk 11:15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. Luk 11:16 And others, tempting [him], sought of him a sign from heaven. Luk 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth. Luk 11:18 If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. After reading these scriptures how can we claim that after asking God to save us and fill us with the Holy Ghost, instead we got sold up the river for the sake of a cult? For those of you who claimed to be saved and filled with God's precious Holy Ghost while in NTCC are you now willing to forfeit and exchange it for a serpent and a scorpion? Bryan David Hill | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
#3 For those who believe that NTCC was a good church but ended up a cult. When did it become a cult? What was the deciding fator? At what point did they cross the line and all the sudden ceased to be a tool of God and became a tool of the devil? Who is responsible? The leaders or the servents? or both? If it was a slow and subtle process then there was plenty of time to warn. There were no warnings that I remember while I was in. Where was God while this serpent slid in and injected its poison? So either we have a church that was overcome of the devil some where and at some place and time. Or we have a church that was never a church but rather a farce from the very beginning. Once again I ask those of you who are sure of what you say, "when did NTCC become a cult and what was the deciding factor". Les, was it when they didn't want us to bring our Bible's to church? And yes I do remember that. Was it when they became an organization? What about when they allowed so many divorces and remarriages? There is an answer somewhere in all of this. Bryan David Hill | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
#4 Be honest, if Jesus was considered a cult in his day wouldn't he be considered one even moreso in our day? If your answer is NO, then wouldn't your religion be in danger of being modern and accepted as was the religion of those who had him crucified? Can you imagine what response this man would have in today's world? He claimed to be God. He worked miracles of unknown origin. He led a small group of followers sometimes staying in secret locations. One of His disciples committed suicide. He was finally executed for antigovernment activities. If Jesus came today, as He came two thousand years ago, He would be considered a dangerous cult leader. Yet, it is fashionable today to worship Jesus as the Christ. He has become acceptable. That is-man's idea of Him is acceptable because His image has been transformed into an American product for merchandise. "Christianity" is a most wonderful business and fortunes are made with this product which bears no semblance at all to the real Christ. Movies are made about this image and men are bought and sold within various religious denominations for the purpose of gain. In the time of Christ, He was looked at with great suspicion by "normal" society. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
#4 cont- "Christian" is a term that means "Christlike" or Christ follower. This term was first coined as a degrading accusation against members of Christ's cult. The plain truth is that any true Christian (Christ-Like) today will be considered a cult member precisely as they were during the time of Christ. Why is this so? Consider for a moment the descriptions of the sons of God provided in Scripture. Jesus said, "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:14. The world hates authentic Christians today because they are viewed as cultists. They are cultists because they are not of the world. They stand out separate from the world. They have their own CULTure. This causes them to be viewed as separatists and somewhat secretive as Jesus was. It was not the Romans that gave much notice to Jesus. It was the church of the day. They were the instigators of hate against His cult. They were the "hate mongers" of His time. The Pharisees and Sadducees of today are the various religious sects of this age. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
#4 cont- It has been said that cults seem to insist one must be of their group in order to be saved or at least to be right. Did Jesus do that? He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Can you imagine someone saying that today: someone like the man next door? Jesus said, "Follow me." Here was a cult leader who told others to follow Him. He said that He was the only way to the Father. There was no other way to heaven. Certainly this should be enough to give one the picture of who Jesus really was. Was Jesus a cult leader? Decidedly yes. The dictionary definition for cult is: 1.a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect. 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. Certainly Jesus exercised authority. He was generally considered extremist and false. He lived in an unconventional manner. Certainly He led in a system of religious worship and He was the leader. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
#4 cont- There is another sign of a cult. A cult is apocalyptic. The imminent coming of Christ or the imminent end of the world is cited as one of the main ingredients of cultish doctrine. There are numerous religions that hold that Jesus is going to come back some day but only a cult believes it is imminent. "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15. John the Baptist believed and preached the same thing. Yes, John the Baptist would be considered a separatist and cultish figure also. This was the very nature of the early Christian movement. It may be that the leaders of a movement might be seen as somewhat forceful and strange, and that the members of the cult would only be followers, but not really dangerous since they were following a man. After Jesus was executed, the power and strange cultish behavior did not end. It is recorded in Scripture that two members of the main church dropped dead for telling a lie. "But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people." Acts 5:1-12. Consider this for a moment. Imagine that happening in America now. Suppose the news media reported that two members of a cult did not pay the leadership what they had promised so they dropped dead. Can you imagine the headlines over that story? Christ would be branded a cult leader of the most dangerous kind. He would be accused of some crime and then executed. His disciples would probably be treated the same way. Jesus would be accused by those who consider themselves Christians. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
#4 cont- It has been said that a cult will cause division and divide families. Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:34-38. Jesus went on to say, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26. Yes, the leader of the Christian church said these things. I know this was alot to chew. I will next reveal exactly what I believe is the truth concerning NTCC and the problems associated with it. Usually I am not so longwinded and for that I apologize. Also most of the info in #4 was put together by someone else. I can't take credit for it, but it does relate my point so I used it. Bryan David Hill | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1912 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.95.82 |
Dear Bryan, your posts simply prove what I have said about your unwillingness to see Davis as he really has been and is (And believe me, the sooner he is only a 'has-been' and no longer an 'is', by repentance or destruction, the better off many other good people shall be...). You simply don't want to admit that YOU were in a cult, no matter how little or much you served in it at the will of Davis. But, like the rest of us, don't worry so much about how foolish we were, but rather thank God for how faithful to Jesus we are proven to be (!) | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1913 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.95.82 |
And as the three faithful Hebrews said to the great king, "We are not careful to answer thee in this matter..." #1) BURNED. Davis' whole soulwinning program is TRASH, because it is NOT Bible, and so is NOT doing service to God, but to man. (Rom 10:3,14:18)(1 Cor 3:10-13)(Gal 4:17-21) shows us that only the sort of work done that is by the faith of Jesus is acceptable to God, Who's faith is known by what is written in His Word. We can indeed say, "Have not the faith of our Lord Jesus with respect of persons... by having our service to Him with respect to another person's program" (!) Thus, ALL labors, works, efforts, ministerings, zeals, etc... that are not by That faith according to the true knowledge of God's Word (Rom 10:2), however sincerely (!), are to be burned as unacceptable and unworthy to God. Which thus includes ALL such programs, commands, persuasions, etc... that are preached, directed, and pushed by man but NOT WRITTEN by God (Gal 5:7-9). As Davis the cult-Leader himself will tell you, "You can be sincere and sincerely wrong!" And so not EVERYTHING he has said is wrong, and he is the prime example of being & leading others to be sincerely wrong. Because it is WRONG to serve God according to ANOTHER man's word, which is to obey ANOTHER gospel. Thus we are exhorted throughout Scripture by God to make our calling & election and service sure by reading the Scriptures for ourselves to see whether such things ministered to us are so or not! As one man said when presented with the fact that Davis' Soulwinning Program is not found written in Scripture, "Well, just because it's not in the Bible, does that make it wrong?" YES. If it is preached, promoted, and pushed as so! As 2 Peter 1:20 shows us, we can have all the private practices of personal faith in our own lives we so desire, so long as they do not contradict and transgress Scripture, BUT we absolutely are NOT to minister them to others as Scripture, thus making others personal followers of our own personal things, rather than helping others to be followers of God's things with their own liberty of private practices in Him. So, if people want to do God service, then God has Scripture plainly showing us what that service is. And we may indeed go out purposely to invite someone to our church services by our own faith freely, BUT when we do it as a matter of conscience and obedience to an unwritten (AND STRANGE) program preached and commanded by a man, then we are obeying THAT man as God, rather than the Lord as God: Idolatry. Thus, the ministering of it, the work of it, the faith of it is FALSE. Not of God. Burned. We have been hoodwinked, recruited, bewtitched, CULTIZED to serve a man's purpose for his gain, rather than helped to serve others for Jesus' sake. 'Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.' (1 John 5:21) | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1914 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.95.82 |
#1) Part Two: All works done without the faith of Jesus, by the false progams of man, are burned. And those who so give themselves to that false church-building work to the point of success and Company Man Leadership, at the expense and destruction of the faith of others, then their works shall not only be burned, but they themselves shall likewise be destroyed for defiling God's temple: the body of Christ being ministered to, whether for good or evil, for help or destruction... The church-building business worked by the soulwinning program is NOT the ministry of the saints for Jesus, but rather is the work of the devil to use the saints for another Leader's gain. | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1915 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.95.82 |
Bryan, As we like to ask the cult for ONE name of ONE minister or church, they acknowledge as approved of God, while they say they are not the only ones serving God right. So I ask you (again), name ONE other minister or church (Other than HOP!), who preaches, directs, pushes the blitz-type soulwinning-program limited ONLY to inviting and getting out to church, since you say Davis is just one of many flawed ministers and churches in the body of Christ. | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1916 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.95.82 |
#2) Simple again. a) The nature of a cult is to preach the gospel of the cross enough to get people saved, and then to USE that same gospel with the additions of men's commandments, doctrines, rules, programs in order to work, merchandise, and profit with filthy gain of the same sheep saved by the cross. That IS the devil's work from within, even as the Pharisees preached enough Moses to USE the nation of Israel for their own advancement, so these builders preach enough Jesus to do the same with the church of Christ. Born into the kingdom of God by the preaching of the cross, recruited into the organization of man by the promotion of his program. b) The work of the devil is imputed unto all the MANY proselytizing doctrines and recruitment programs of Davis-types, THAT ARE NOT SO BY SCRIPTURE. Not to ANY of God's true work of salvation, Holy Ghost baptism, tongues, interpretations, healings indeed, joys, the Spirit's communion and sanctification, etc... that God has done for His own believers, despite the fact that DAVIS USES IT ALL for his own benefit, by leavening IT ALL with his own manipulative persuasions, dominant personality, superior anointings, false apostleship, and business purpose. Yes, he is THAT leavened with his business, even as other good people have become so as well... to their own hurt and destruction. To expose false teaching and leading is NOT to blaspheme the Holy Ghost. And to warn of evil deeds of such false leaders is NOT to speak evil of God's ministers. | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1917 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.95.82 |
"For those of us who at one time trusted God to lead us to His church and His people, how do we now claim that God led us to the blind which in turn led us into a ditch? How do we now ascribe (to the devil) what we once thought were the works of the Holy Spirit?" This is the perfectly loyal-party line: Since God led you in, why would He do so to your harm? So, why would He lead you out? Hmm? Indeed, even the OPEN loyalists have yet to go so far as to suggest that 'some' are blaspheming the Holy Ghost for speaking out against Davis' ministerial works (!!) At this point, it is evident that Bryan is either once again attending NTCC in Germany, or is about to, or might as well be doing so, because he is as good or better a defender of Davis and CONDEMNER of his fault-finding, wrongly-touching, blaspheming attackers. And in truly typical lukewarm fashion, he makes the point in such an oh-so smoozie question of, "Now, we really don't want to be doing that, do we?" And in like lukewarm fashion, his HARDEST corrections and most IMPASSIONED 'stand' is against his 'allies', more so that he has EVER made against his 'friends' on the other side. NOTICE: He is accusing some of possibly (Typical moderate) blaspheming God and being of the devil, because he refuses to suggest Davis is (!!) (Can you believe it?) NOTE: If Bryan or ANYONE else wants to go back and practise some more attendance for Davis, that's fine. Really. I wholeheartedly agree ANYONE ought truly get their belly-full of folly, so as to truly be free of it. (So long as they don't lose their Jesus in the process!) After all, I've visited those churches since I officially 'left', because only a top-few truly devilish types do I avoid at all costs, except they repent: (Davis and his board, Gandy, Devonshire, Bailey, Denis, Bradeen...) There are still decent folks decievably serving a bad program, who have not yet defiled themselves with such meat to the point of destruction on others (and so themselves). And some good Gospel preachin' can still be had in such pulpits. However: Warning! Davis and many others are adulterous, and are to be avoided personally and forbiden Christian company. And the closer you get to his kinda company, the further you WILL get from Jesus' kind of sheep (!) And, other than the preaching of the cross, resurrection, and Holy Spirit fellowship in Christ, ALL THE REST of Davis' (and Denis') ministerial program is unbliblic, vain, anti-christian in effect, and devilish. So, if you can just recieve the blessing of God given you directly by faith from the preaching of Jesus and Him crucified, and can let ALL THE REST of Davis & Denis Daffy-duck droppings (That 5-D's, count 'em!) fall by your Christian wayside, more power of God and strength in His Word to you (!) BUT, if you then want to come way out here to Factnetland and try to make a case of apology for Davis as just another flawed but good guy trying to minister the gospel of God to others in the Christian church... well. Right. Gotcha. Enjoy. Yum-yum. Goody-goody gum drops. | ||
| victorjohanson Senior Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 1412 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
The whole "is NTCC a cult" debate is unresolveable, since it's all based on semantics. Those who view it as a cult have solid reasons for doing so, based on their definition of what constitutes a cult, formed by comparing NTCC's activities to widely circulated and generally accepted cult earmarks. But this definition varies from person to person, so to others, NTCC doesn't make the grade. Does it really matter what we call it? "Abusive religious system" would work. No matter how we denominate it, we know the damage it does and the important thing is that its deeds are exposed to the unwary. Can God work through cults? I think so. I have read the testimonies of others, who came out of organizations like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and their testimony was similar to ours--they were tender hearted believers who finally arrived at the conclusion that their church was way off course, so to stay true to God they had to leave. Why would I doubt their salvation while still in? The fact that they left by the leading of God would indicate that they had a relationship with him while still 'in.' God works in a mysterious way his wonders to perform. He is not bound by man's bad behavior. | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1920 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.95.82 |
While the Scriptures themselves are clear enough about which is which, even to the point of degrees, so that we are not at all left up to our own devices and men's reasonings in such matters of judging ministries... I wholeheartedly agree with your charitable recognition of Christian fellowship for individuals of faith, while wisely remaining watchful against those false leaders that would merchandize and even destroy them for gain. My conclusion of the whole matter is: By the preaching of the cross of Jesus, that Davis or any other CULT-LEADER may do, ANY believer can and shall be saved and grow as a Christian, BUT the closer any such believer gets to Davis' brand of Christianity and type of church business, the further away from Jesus' kind of sheep and ministry of the saints they shall become. Like a burning building, those closest to the center are in the most danger of destruction and least likely to escape therefrom... alive. But ALL shall have gotten burnt to some degree or another, even if it's just some smoke inhalation (!) | ||
| victorjohanson Senior Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 1416 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
"even if it's just some smoke inhalation (!)" Yeah, they do blow some serious smoke over there. | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
I believe it is a serious matter to go before God and ascribe what I use to consider His work to the works of the devil. Does NTCC have some serious abusive and controlling issues among other serious problems? Yes! Oh and by the way I was told that I was not welcome in NTCC many years ago. Brother Derrick, back when you were knocking on doors and serving your god (RWD), I was preaching revivals rejoicing over my escape from NTCC, and still rejoice. I haven't been to a NTCC church accept once in the last 13 years. And that one time I went, I was told by bro. Olson thru bro. Teiman that I was not welcomed there. So any suggestion that I am attending is pure hot air because of the questions I raised. Oh by the way, answers to these questions seem like pulling teeth. Brother Derrick your assertion that you were RWD right hand man always on the inner circle is quite revealing. Like I said before I am true to me, deal with it. Bryan David Hill | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
So far I established that the Church Jesus started was considered a cult and had all the earmarks of one. Anyone disagree? BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Remeber that Jesus told his followers that if he was deamed as working thru the power of Beelzebub, how much more those who follow Him? Did Jesus not say make it clear that we are not greater that our master? BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
So, now I ask. Since the original church was a "cult" and the leader of this "cult said his followers would be considered a "cult" becuase we are not greater than our master. Is it not reasonable to say that any church that attempts to do what Jesus did, look like Jesus and act like Jesus and preach Jesus's Word, that church will look like a cult? HHHMMmmmmmmmmmmmmm Bryan David Hill | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Good, now that we established that Christ's church will look like a cult we must realize that to God this is a badge of honor, but the world views this stigma as a serious deviation of all that is good and in fact the work of the devil itslelf. So I say again, be careful how you use the word "cult" and the meaning you ascribe to it. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Remeber that Christ was crucified by those who thought they were doing God's work. And in the last days it is to be the same. Christian will be persecuted by those who believe they are doing God a favor. This is history repeating itself, remember the inquisitions and the burning at the stakes. Be careful that you are not drifting toward a one world religion and faith. Who said that the road to life is a straight and narrow path and few actually find it? the one to destruction was wide and many be that go in there at? Who said that? BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 66 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Conclusion NTCC is one of many churches that started out hot for God and ended up a mixture of fleshly works and spiritual works. I can't think of one church including the ones Paul and Peter started in the book of Revelation, where they did not end up a mess. This is due to the fact that we are not glorified, and have a tendency toward imperfection, even if you set out to be perfect. NTCC is one of God's many imperfect churches that look like a cult. The list of cults is miles long. They are all considered a cult by somebody. So there you have it, an understanding that includes more than just NTCC. It is an understanding that can help anyone understand why there are so many problems in the church world. We are imperfect vessels trying to do the work of a perfect God. Looking like a cult is no bid deal if you understand why. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 67 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Am I interested in going to NTCC? NO! not in the least. I have my walk with God, had it when I met NTCC, had it while I was in, and still do. This is more important to me than going back in time and into a organization that evolved to a point that actually threatened my walk and relationship with God. Bryan David Hill | ||
| clearwater New member Username: clearwater Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 71.227.171.20 |
BDH, Well said, if you dont mind me saying so. I think the points were very well thought out and the logic very solid. In fact I was thinking along those very lines today. It began to occur to me that more and more anything that remotely resembles biblical Christianity will be castigated as a cult etc. I suppose to some degree it always has. Christianity is by its very nature exclusive thereby drawing a bulls eye on it as society strives more and more for egalitarianism. Hence, the rise of ecumenical thought among all religions. I too, was a part of ntcc for many years. While I readily admit that I take umbrage with a great many things within the org to refer to it as a cult simply does not square in my minds eye for many reasons, some of which you alluded to. Having said that, I think Vic made a salient observation when he said in effect it just depends on what one considers a cult. I appreciate your post in that it sounds well reasoned and not simply one speaking out of vindictivness. | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Thank you for the compliment clearwater. And you are right concerning Vics comment on semantics which is what every subject boils down to. However Proverbs 18:17 "The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him". When one person is allowed to interpret the bible on any given subject, a little balance and reason can be of help. Bryan David Hill | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 72 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
humorous comments on what a cult is: "...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion; and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect; but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult." Leo Pfeffer. A humorous quotation, but one that is uncomfortably close to reality. "Cults are claimed to be deceitful. They are claimed to be harmful to their members. They are claimed to be undermining American values. Cults are claimed to be just about every bad thing in the book these days, and with the pervasive images of Manson and Jim Jones hanging over us, any group that is called a cult is immediately associated with those two people." J. Gordon Melton. "My working definition of a cult is a group that you don't like, and I say that somewhat facetiously, but at the same time, in fact, that is my working definition of a cult. It is a group that somebody doesn't like. It is a derogatory term, and I have never seen it redeemed from the derogatory connotations that it picked up in the sociological literature in the 1930s." J. Gordon Melton. "A cult is a church down the street from your church." Anon Bryan David Hill | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1921 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.197.59.83 |
"A cult is a church down the street from your church... that forbids attending your church down the street, because you are not them." (Jude 19) Once again, your willingness to falsely accuse all the good, decent, helpful, sincere and neighborly ministers in God's church WHO ARE BY FAR THE MAJORITY, by apologizing for Davis as just another 'flawed' vessel and servant of God among many is... FLAWED, deeply so. In all of your pretty ideas and attempts to know what you're talking about in the Scriptures and the ministry of Christ, you still (JUST AS A LOYALIST) have yet to answer a simple question: If Davis is just another good but flawed minister of God, then name ONE other minister and his church that you personally know of who does as Davis does: Organizes, directs, runs, and pushes a soulwinning program exclusively intended for inviting and getting people to his church, that he may be a 'success' in the ministry. AND the people are plainly made poorer by it, unless they learn to succeed in like manner on others (!) We used to say that such 'soulwinning' zeal was the ONLY thing that real cults did right, such as the JW's. And thus we weren't a cult just because we were the ONLY others ones doing as they (!) "The only ones other than us that are still out there soulwinning is the JW's. At least they do that right. Which is more than I can say for the rest of the churches and denominations. When a church organization compromises, the first thing they stop doing is soulwinning, because soulwinning is the First Love!" Kinson: Tillicum. (Repeating Davis) "At least we're out there giving people a chance, and they can never say they didn't get one!" Davis: Graham (On the Blitz Program's good work of giving people an opportunity to... join NTCC!) And the truth is that indeed it is the ONE MAIN thing that real cults do, even back to the days of the 'missionary' Jews in Rome during the Christian era. And they were kicked out of Rome for it. But not the Christians, who were NOT doing it, but rather living, working, praying, assembling, ministering, fellowshipping, witnessing, loving, looking for that blessed hope. I am not of them that rely on their own bright ideas about what's what with the things of God, especially where His ministry is concerned. I have fully-well learned from Davis himself, that just because some neat saying sounds good, doesn't mean it is good. There is only One good source of truth to judge all things by: God and His Word. All of the definition and recognition I have of God's ministry vs. cultish ministries (that wilfully use God's name and Spirit for gain) is from the Bible. And it is in the mirror of God's written Word, that all such false ministering may be recognized and exposed, even to the point of cultism: Davis-types. You have not corrected any such judgments of Davis' own words, deeds, manners, and results in the light of the Scriptures and reasoning presented here. All you've said was, 'Not that bad.' Well, he is, and you are not, so be thankful for that, and leave the bloody work of the Sword to others who are not afraid to LET God's Word judge as it is written, even to the depths of Satan's wanna-be christs. (Rev 2:16,23-24) You don't want Davis to be called a cult nor an antichrist (Because you don't want to admit to yourself you were that foolish in the past, though not as deeply foolish as some others: ME), fine. He ain't a cult-leader nor an antichrist... but he shor do act like one! (Ha!) | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.166 |
Proverbs 18:17 "The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him". Bryan David Hill | ||
| michael_ismyfirstname New member Username: michael_ismyfirstname Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.88.253.100 |
Definition (CULT) : A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false. (CULTIST) : A member of a cult. greg confers that he thinks he is in a cult by calling himself a cultist. greg_s (quote) "(Speaking for ourselves, we are merely another Full Gospel Cultist…as the Dictionary defines Cultist and by God’s Command." I assumed that he is apart of NTCC. I am not sure if he is or not. That means what ever church he is going to; with his statement he is referring to that church as a cult. That could mean either of 2 things. 1. That he knows that his religion or religious sect is generally considered to be extremist or false. 2. He himself thinks his religion or religious sect is extremist or false. So I go further to understand according to him, that God commanded him to be a Full Gospel Cultist. The God of his church commands people (like him) to take part in a cult. I strongly object to what greg_s said. I asked him to clarify what he said. He is unable to account for his words. Or he does not want to be held accountable for the things he says. That is why he is silent and non responsive. calling a church a cult is similar to calling it false. Greg_s calls his church a cult and says his God commands people (like him) into his current (church/cult according to him). Either honesty or humility is Greg_s's weak point. He can not choose between the 2 so he remains silent. I am assuming that he has the intellect to understand the things he says. | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Brother Derrick says "leave the bloody work of the Sword to others. (Rev 2:16,23-24" These are the scriptures he refers to and fancies himself somewhere in them. 16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Derrick I went and looked at the entire chapter in which you pulled these scriptures. I say this in all sincerity. Try taking scripture and applying it only as it pertains to the context, not only of scripture but context of subject. A picture of you wielding a bloody sword should concern everyone on this forum. I realize you are refering to spiritual matters, but so am I. You consistanly try to apply scripture when it is evident that you are picking and choosing what you want to bring out. You have made it clear that you hate NTCC and it's leaders for what they have done to you, so you rage against them on this forum and find all these scriptures to justify your attitude and to condem to hell your enemies. I suggest that you live and let live. You don't have to be so unbalanced with your apporach and delivery of God's Word. Bryan David Hill | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Brother Derrick You need to understand that there are cults outside the spectrum of Christianity (people who do not believe that Christ is Son of God and in the death burial or ressurection Christ or his atonement etc..) And there are what is considered cults inside the circle of what is considered Christian churches that do hold to these timeless truths. Inside this christian circle of churches most every church is being called a cult by another christian church. All churches have their problems, all churches have inbalances or concerns. I asked you for a list of those people who you say are doing things right and in that list you gave me, you mentioned Billy Graham. I posted my response to that. Billy Graham is believed to be the most dangerous minister in America by some. No two churches are alike. It doesn't mean that a church inside the Christian circle of belief's which you disagree with is automatically worthy of cult status. If that was the case there would not be a church to go to, becuase why should we discount the 100's of thousands accusations of others calling every other church a cult and only believe yours? Sorry but what you have is a personal vandetta and it is becoming evident by each post you present. A person can't heal while in this condition. Take a minute and think to yourself whether or not you were worthy of the judment you dish out while you were in this same org. If not, why not and if so, look at how merciful God has been Bryan David Hill | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1924 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.216.85.176 |
Dear Bryan, ALERT: Did you know that you are on Factnet? The cult-exposing place? That Davis is on Factnet? The cult-leader exposed? Really, there are social groups for exers that will be glad to hear from you, and they are not at all desiring to get into these things on Factnet? I don't take this all-out warfare to their groups, and so you shouldn't take their 'get-along' philosophy on Factnet. It's called 'courtesy' and 'respect'. | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1925 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.216.85.176 |
"You have made it clear that you hate NTCC and it's leaders for what they have done to you, so you rage against them on this forum and find all these scriptures to justify your attitude and to condem to hell your enemies. I suggest that you live and let live. You don't have to be so unbalanced with your apporach and delivery of God's Word." Bryan the Good Sounds more like a loyalist everyday... Just because you don't know what it's like to hate evil deeds and false doctrine like Jesus does, and to burn for the sheep hurt and destroyed by them like Paul did, doesn't mean either Jesus, nor Paul, nor I have and live in hatred for the doers thereof: Davis-types. Indeed, you're apologetics for Davis has all the earmarks of truly being a 'sorry exposer' for those badly hurt at the hands of Davis, even as Job's 'friends' were miserable comforters to him being hurt at the hands of the devil... And so far as any damage done to me by Davis-types: That's over with and has been. But it is not so with others. (But hey, Davis isn't that bad, so they'll be just fine. And those who have been destroyed, even to the point of their souls? Well, that just rumor, false accusation, or just their own fault for not being as 'smart' as you...) | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1926 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.216.85.176 |
"Derrick I went and looked at the entire chapter in which you pulled these scriptures. I say this in all sincerity. Try taking scripture and applying it only as it pertains to the context, not only of scripture but context of subject." Bryan the Brain I see. well, that settles that. Oh, wait. I didn't read exactly HOW that is so. No doubt that part slipped by you. But, I guess that's just that loyalist part of you creeping out again (Are you really healed?): People ought accept what you say, simply because YOU said it? YOU've determined it? I mean, when I make such an ACCUSATION of wresting Scripture for personal purpose, I at least give the proof of it. (Ya know what I mean?) Davis-style proof without proof: Because I looked at it, and I say so (Ha!) Why is it you simply don't see such Scriptures as proof that having such a hate for the evil and letting the Sword of God fight against it is INDEED Scriptural? (You may disagree with the use and object of it, but the fact of such a burning work for God remains...) Like Jude said, you're a storm-cloud without water. But you certainly struck like lightning. Oh wait, didn't Satan do that too, though in a fall?? (You did help to correct me on apsotleships, when you did go to Scripture to prove it. I mean, I would even hear Davis, if he taught from the Scripture truly (Matthew 23:2), even as I do from his loyalists and/or his apologists. You.) | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1927 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.216.85.176 |
"I suggest that you live and let live." Spoken like a true lukewarmist! Here we are! The real lion comes out roaring! (Or is it a mouse's squeak?) A really nice guy! Way to go, you're learning how to lie down with the wolves already! Kumbaya guy! Yipee! Hurray! What a great day! We're all in-it-together guys! Be careful who you bed with though. You may get killed with them (Rev 2:22-23). (Did you notice Jesus didn't say that Jezebel and Balaam-types ministering their bad stuff in the church weren't also preaching Him as the Christ... at the same time? And good people are warned against lying down with her ministry in the church, lest they likewise die as her ministerial children? Ahh, but that's just too much incidiary and bloody talk for a real Lamb of God, ain't it? (Rev 6:16-17)) And so, you're going to practice 'live and let live' by moving on, right? You've moved on, grown up, attained superior balance, more enlightened dignity, etc... So live and let live and move on, right? Right? I mean. What are you doing here? You've 'healed' right? Or have you just refused to believe how really bad it really was that you did give (at least some) time and money and loyalty for? I trow your kind of 'healing', especially here on Factnet, serves more to heal the deadly wound to Davis false & beastly headship (Rev 13:3), that Factnet is doing with the Lord's Sword (!) Is Factnet really the place to 'live and let live' with decried cult-leaders? No wonder you feel so out of place. It's only going to get hotter, and (to put it plainly) your warm-hearted spittle for Davis ain't gonna make it any cooler. Indeed, your efforts have only taught me exactly why Jesus spews out the lukewarm: They're no real help for either side, and the only time they get heated is to condemn their 'allies' for going too far against their 'friends' on the other side. I have learned by Scripture that Christian fellowship is more 'live and let live' concerning personal practices of faith within the boundary of Christ' rule; even as I have learned by the same Scripture that Christian ministry is less 'do as you please' concerning preaching pesonal practices of faith in the name of doing God service. | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Brother Derrick said in all his glory ALERT: Did you know that you are on Factnet? The cult-exposing place? That Davis is on Factnet? The cult-leader exposed? Really, there are social groups for exers that will be glad to hear from you, and they are not at all desiring to get into these things on Factnet? I don't take this all-out warfare to their groups, and so you shouldn't take their 'get-along' philosophy on Factnet. It's called 'courtesy' and 'respect'. It's also called freedom of speach and balance. Your "all out war" mentality that keeps popping up reminds me of the guy who went in and shot and killed the doctor of a abortion clinic cuz he was so obsessed with his percieved calling. Sorry my live and let live philosophy doesn't suit you. I didn't realize you were using this site to marshall a small army to bring a "bloody sword" to the enemies of Derrick. You scare me. BDH Thank You | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Brother Derrick says "Just because you don't know what it's like to hate evil deeds and false doctrine like Jesus does, and to burn for the sheep hurt and destroyed by them like Paul did, doesn't mean either Jesus, nor Paul, nor I have and live in hatred for the doers thereof: Davis-types." Brother Derrick really does seem to fancy himself the Factnet Warrior and aligns himself (along with his beliefs) with Paul and Jesus and of course ALL the Word of God. I like how you look more and more like a NTCC minister type on the outside looking in. You even employ alot of the same condemnatory and judgmental pounding into submission when you fear losing control. How does it feel way up there with Jesus and Paul while I am just another unworthy soldier to fight your cause? BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
I responded to you by saying "Derrick I went and looked at the entire chapter in which you pulled these scriptures. I say this in all sincerity. Try taking scripture and applying it only as it pertains to the context, not only of scripture but context of subject." The burden of proof falls on you my friend. You picked 3 scriptures out of the book of Revelaion of all books and tried to make them fit your hand like a club to beat up the church you don't like. Am I to believe that God is going to kill the children of the ministers in NTCC? This is what you imply. How is He going to do it? Will he tear them from limb to limb? Or will he skin them alive as they roast over the flames of hell. What do you prefer? Before I take the time to show you the dozens of reasons why the 3 specially selected scriptures you choose are being used out of context, I am going to give you a chance to actually read the whole chapter and as I said put it in context. Once again your Jihad style of ministry is being exposed one scripture at a time, and you are picking the scriptures. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Bryan Hill said "I suggest that you live and let live." Brother Derrick responds classic NTCC style when you sart straying from the prescribed program. Listen to this, can't you just hear NTCC all over again? Brother Derrick says "Spoken like a true lukewarmist! Here we are! The real lion comes out roaring! (Or is it a mouse's squeak?) A really nice guy! Way to go, you're learning how to lie down with the wolves already! Kumbaya guy! Yipee! Hurray! What a great day! We're all in-it-together guys!" Bravo Derrick, Bravo BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
More Brother Derrick talk "lest they likewise die as her ministerial children? Ahh, but that's just too much incidiary and bloody talk for a real Lamb of God, ain't it? (Rev 6:16-17) It's not something I'm obsessed with, lets put it that way. You seem to gravitate to certain scriptures. It really is quite revealing and helpful in understanding why you don't "follow peace with all men". Oh I'm sorry, did I go outside your box? To bad, deal with it. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 95 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Hebrews 12:14, 15 14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: 15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; BDH | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1959 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.196.218.104 |
You're absolutely right. I agree. Peace. Peeeeeace. Peeeeeeeace. Sleeeeep. Sleeeeeeeeep. Davis-is-not-that-bad. Davis-is-not-that-bad. Don't-be-afraid. Don't-be-afraid. Davis-is-not-bad-at-all. Davis-is-not-bad-at-all. Davis-is-goooood. Davis-is-gooooood. Hey, wait a minute! What's happening to me? He may not be that bad, but neither is he that good! He's just sort-of bad AND sort-of good! I know he acts like he's ALL good, and Derrick acts like he's ALL bad. But it's neither! They're BOTH WRONG! I'm right! The middle is right! It's betwixt the two somewhere, and I'm just the fella to show you where and when and how and how much and how far is far enough or too far to go there! The middle is right! The middle is right! It's somewhere betwixt the two! Let's be twixt the two together! Neither Davis nor Derrick, and yet both Davis AND Derrick!! Never fear, Middle-Man is here! (Ha!) (Alright, you win. He's not that bad, and he's not that good. He's somewhere in the middle, but not as good as us. I mean as good as you. I'm still just as bad as him, only now just outside-looking-in.) | ||
| granite Intermediate Member Username: granite Post Number: 215 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 72.24.207.240 |
John 10:5 is a verse taken from the "Good Shepherd" chapter. I remember Bro. Olson sharing this: The GOOD Shepherd DIED for the sheep. (John 10:11, 14) The GREAT Shepherd LIVES for the sheep. (Heb. 13:20) The CHIEF Shepherd COMES for the sheep. (1 Pet. 5:4) Under Law, the sheep died for the shepherd; under Grace, the Shepherd died for the sheep! (Which does NTCC sounds like to you?) But to JHO, MCK & the rest, please keep in mind this simple fact: Sheep are LED, and are not DRIVEN! | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
The foundational scripture which this thread is built upon cultivates a burning question that in and of itself requirers a legitimate answer. St. John 10:4,5 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. So which is it. Since some believe they were led to an Anit-Christ driven cult based satanic oppressed man-made religion. Was we misled by our Shepherd or were we not sheep? Or was the Shepherd on vacation for 13 years? Hhhmmmmmm? Sorry I had to ask IMASKINGWHY | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
I know, I know. Quit bringing up these hard to answer questions so people can continue unchallenged in what I consider an easy out. It is easier to view the NTCC experience as not of God then to explain why God led you there in the first place. I said it before and I will say it again. NTCC is one of many flawed church organizations becuase there are no perfect churches. If you conclude that you were a sheep while in this "cult", then where was your shepherd when you were entangled? This presents a serious flaw in this whole process. God's sheep will not follow a stranger. If in fact RWD is a serious cult leader and under heavy influence of Anti-christ persuasions while courting satan himself, then what were we doing there? Was God unavailable to spare us all this wasted time? Or is there a decade long pause in God's response to his sheep going astray? I know, pesty questions, huh? Bryan David Hill | ||
| pelfdaddy Advanced Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 964 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.208.14.116 |
BDH-- I have been chewing on your posts in this thread for some days now, and would like to respond as one who is not evading the question, and who never has. I have asked myself these challenging interrogatives again and again, and I have an answer. I guarantee that you will not like it. | ||
| granite Intermediate Member Username: granite Post Number: 216 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 72.24.207.240 |
Bryan: Because the Shepherd is well able, Christ can be found within the confines of almost any quasi-Christian group, no matter how flawed the belief system may otherwise be. God's omnipresence makes this possible, and His love compels it. However, each group is composed of varying percentages of individuals, both converted and not, as well as ministers with pure motives and others whose primary purpose seems to be fleecing the flock and spiritual hegemony over God's people. These are "tares among the wheat," and reveal that every religion has a dark side to it, including the Jews in Jesus' day (Mat. 23, Jer. 23, Ezek. 34). What we have to remember is that no organized denomination with its headquarters anywhere on this earth is authored by God. God's kingdom is a spiritual thing! Clearly many of us met Christ in NTCC under the ministry of those who did preach the gospel, but as we became more deeply involved in the man-made system we fled from others who were rapacious, abusive, and controlling. These would fit into the category of the "stranger" and "hireling" who "fleeth because he careth not for the sheep" in a time of crisis. He fleeceth, and then he fleeth. This is consistent with both the self-aggrandizing pragmatic behavior and cavalier attitudes of those in the highest levels of NTCC leadership. Then when we saw that they truly did not have our best interests at heart, we "fled" from them as well! When a religious group is governed by men who fit this description, and is unaccountable both to outsiders as well as its own constituency, then the group as a whole can quite aptly be described as a sociological CULT and not a church, in spite of their name and regardless of any positive effects of their ministry at large: It has been and is, "NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIAN CULT"! Those who still worship with them should cut off the flow of money to Graham and keep it in their local churches, or else give their offerings elsewhere. (They have 1200 people in Graham! Unless it is just to build a bigger steeple, why on earth do they need everybody else's money too???) "We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go... My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul..." - Jer. 51:9, 45 "He calleth His own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." - John 10:3 - Les tracts@juno.com (aka leftin1991) | ||
| pelfdaddy Advanced Member Username: pelfdaddy Post Number: 965 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 69.208.0.206 |
How does one reconcile that which one wishes to believe with the apparent reality that is all too obvious? Consider the following: 1-Jesus promised that with faith we could move mountains. He does not give us a nuanced definition, nor does he provide nuanced examples, of miraculous power. He does the amazing and promises us the same authority to command the elements. But...we accomplish nothing that resembles this, and excuse it with bumbling justifications and theological verbosity. And yet...we keep on insisting that it is just as true as ever. 2-Jesus commanded that we not be concerned with clothing, food and shelter; since our Father is on the case and both knows and provides for the needs of his own. But...we know from experience that we have to take as many pains to see to our needs as do the unbelievers, and that neglect will lead only to impoverished starvation or embarrassed dependence. And yet...we continue to insist that this promise is as reliable as ever. 3-Jesus promised healing for the believer. But...no one is ever healed, in spite of scattered testimonies to the contrary which are never verified and which are constantly found to be untrue; if indeed we are healed, it is through the use of medicine, which leads to the absurd spectacle of Christians praying that God would "guide the doctor's hands", as though medical training alone could not perform the required surgery. And yet...we keep on talking about healing. 4-Jesus promised the gift of the Holy Spirit to the end that we might exercise power in this world as we witness to his gospel. But...there is nothing happening in the church world that is verifiably miraculous. Further, people are pryaing for the Spirit Baptism, and coming away with fake languages that they incorporate into their daily lives in spite of the lack of results therefrom, making believe that some power is operating in their lives through this powerful means of making contact with the Spiritual realm. And yet...tongues and prophesy continue unabated. 5-Lastly, and most germaine to the topic, christians are confident, because of the scriptures, that God will lead us into truth. But...we find that we are no different from everyone else, in that we are not led by anything but our own inexperience and ignorance; that our religious life is a series of profoundly injurious mistakes, and that the "body of Christ" is shot through with abuse, error, and conflicting opinion on every topic. Yet...we ask each other questions like, "If this is a cult, and you were in it, where was God? Hmmmmmmm?" Conclusion: The faithful must do one of two things... A-Abandon faith as an illusion B-Adopt a completely foolproof, universally reconciled, classical concept of Faith--belief IN SPITE OF EVIDENCE--and cease to strive about the question "If God promises X, and you got stuck with Y, then where is God in your experience?", since we are called upon to believe IN SPITE OF the fact that he is obviously not going to ACTUALLY heal you, perform for you, intervene for you, provide for you, spirit-baptize you, or steadily lead you...AT ALL. Not very nice, is it? | ||
| victorjohanson Senior Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 1451 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 66.223.233.130 |
"5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." Does you interpret this verse as meaning that all Christians are immune from deception at all times? That would appear to conflict with the many warnings against false teachers and prophets. How do you explain the presence of believers in just about every far out splinter group out there? It seems kind of harsh to relegate them all to false-disciple status. In fact, the more sincere a person is, the more susceptible they are to abuse from the unscrupulous. Lets not blame the victims (yes, Larry, I did say victims). | ||
| clearwater New member Username: clearwater Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 71.227.171.20 |
BDH, I think your case was well stated and would tend to agree. In so far as I understand what you are saying. In my many years in the org I cannot escape the many testimonies regading how they came to Christ (some prior to some after) and found themselves in ntcc. I felt then and still do now that many of them were quite compelling. I cannot believe they were all lies. Even if I wanted to my own personal testimony would speak against my conscience. You were not stating that a person will not at anytime be led of the Lord to move on. This would be a falsehood as we all know we cannot put Him in a box, though many try (perhaps unwittingly)through false teaching. Some are led down certain roads. The boot and the lash may be needed to keep on the straight and narrow at points in ones life (lol). I am reminded of the words of Christ "if a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish will he give him a serpant". Unless I am misunderstanding (entirely possible) it sounds as though that is exactly what some felt they recieved by way of leading upon their conversion or shortly there after. A stone and a serpant. | ||
| charger New member Username: charger Post Number: 24 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.32.36.197 |
Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.166 |
Vic to answer your question it would be a "NO". In fact your following question/statement makes my point: "How do you explain the presence of believers in just about every far out splinter group out there"? So God does have a purpose in leading us to His dysfunctional churches. I believe that. But I don't believe in looking back and blaming everything on the devil. You know, "the church is a cult" - "RWD is the antichrist" - "His church is the synagogue of satan" - "RWD is vessel fitted for destruction and on his way to hell" - "the devils minister transformed into an angel of light" All of these statements take away from the possibility of NTCC simply being one of God's many flawed churches. This is NOT to condone the many abusive and controling characteristics within NTCC. You may be surprised what "churches" are saying about other "churches". Everyone is calling the other one a cult, antichrist and etc.. This to me is an easy out. I am simply suggesting that God has no perfect churches they are all dysfuntional in some way. This helps to lift the burden and eases some of the pain associated with how we identify with our past. To say we were in a cult and on and on makes the situation even worse, cuz then you have to wonder why and how it happened. This truly is giving the devil to much glory and robbing God of His choice in allowing his ministers to be flesh and blood, not yet glorified. I have looked at alot of what is considered great churches and found with it alot of hurt people. They are everywhere. Even the Brownsville revival also known as the Fathers day revival which boast millions coming from around the world to get a visit from God has been deamed a great lie by many good preachers. The Azusa street revival has it's crowd of whistleblowers stating all the evil that came from that revival. The list is endless. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that the church world is like the prodigal son who has not made it home yet but is homeward bound. BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.166 |
Out of all of us Paul had a right to strike out against those who opposed him. Phil 1:12-18 12But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel; 13So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places; 14And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. 15Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. Try actually reading these verses out of your bible. Now, can someone, anyone tell me why these verses are being ignored? BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Does not these scriptures apply to those who do not build on Christ's foundation wisely? 10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Did it say that "he himself shall be saved"? So a person can make a mess trying to build on the foundation and still be saved, although suffer loss? Why are these scriptures being ignored when attempting to explain the destiny of those who hurt us? BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
VW: Brownsville RevivalBrownsville Revival featured on 20/20 Thursday! .... both leaders adamantly denied criticism from some religious leaders that their church is like a cult, ... a-voice.org/discern/brownsvl.htm - 31k - Cached http://a-voice.org/discern/brownsvl.htm BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 110 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
The Billy Graham Deception Billy Graham has been selected and used by the Illuminati to work to bring .... I wanted to provide some other proof he was in the cult of Freemasonry. ... www.beastprophets.com/billy-graham.htm - 71k http://www.beastprophets.com/billy-graham.htm BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Quaking Like QuakersRichard Riss writes of the Azusa Street Revival and actually describes the manifestations .... The Cult That Snapped: A Journey Into the Way International, ... www.seekgod.ca/quakers.htm - 41k - Cached - Similar pages http://www.seekgod.ca/quakers.htm BDH | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
I can go on and on. You name them and somewhere by someone they are being labled a cult. The fact is that there are cults outside the scope of Christianity. These deny the blood, Bible as God's inspired word, and the ressurrection of Jesus Christ to mention a few And you have organizations who house human beings that in fact hold to the vital Christian beliefs that make one a Christian. In all of these tens of thousands of christian churches these flawed ministers have mishandled God's word, stumbling all over themselves and others. However it is their reliance on the blood of Christ that keeps them in God's hands in heaven while they attempt to represent God here on earth. This is why the church world is a mess, but it is God's mess. BDH | ||
| victorjohanson Senior Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 1459 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.67.41.9 |
"I can go on and on. You name them and somewhere by someone they are being labled a cult. The fact is that there are cults outside the scope of Christianity. These deny the blood, Bible as God's inspired word, and the ressurrection of Jesus Christ to mention a few" Like I said, it's a semantic distinction. You define cults as those who deny the blood. Others define cults by their oppressive nature and negative treatment of people. So the whole argument is subjective anyway, and it's counterproductive to get stuck disagreeing about something that is fundamentally irreconcileable. I don't insist on the cult designation, but neither do I dismiss it either. It just depends on what one considers a cult. As far as RWD goes, I'm a vocal critic of his doctrine and actions, but wouldn't presume to preclude God from extending mercy his way. That's not my call. However, he has earned the denunciations he's getting these days. | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Vic I have for the most part already emptied my complaints against RWD and NTCC thru various medias including factnet. There are plenty. I found that to be counterproductive after a point, especially since so many other people were doing the same. I got my satisfaction from that and moved on. So I do agree with RWD having to face the music. I had already agreed with you on a previous post that the cult distinction was dependent on semantics. However either NTCC is or isn't a full fledged cult, and that truth is not dependent on semantics, only in the individuals mind. My purpose for getting involved in this subject which I had already settled in my theological understanding many years ago, has a 2-fold purpose. 1) To bring additional light of scripture, reason and balance to the subject. Many new people will see all these threads in the future and it is only fair that they have my view to consider along with the factnet warrior aka Bro Derrick. 2) To keep my own balance concerning the subject. I will admit I began to doubt my original conclusion. I do feel compelled however after revisiting the subject and renewing my commitment to these understandings. Compelled to present my view without being to dogmatic. So I try to simply present reasonings and ask questions. Everyone from that point can think on their own. Which is also a alternative to the dogmatism being presented on the other end of this spectrum which I find remenesant of NTCC itself. Out of all the subjects on factnet I do consider this one to be a threshold of utmost importance. Every EX'er must eventually come to and grapple with this very subject. Some will pass thru and will be accountable for that decision while others will choose not to and also be held accountable. When you consider the scriptures I have already presented, then you will understand how heavy a subject this is. God seems to not take it lightly when you ascribe any of His works to the devil. I have made my decision. As far as semantics and it boiling down to "it just depends on what one believes as a cult", I am not satisfied with that. Do we just quit after that? Every other subject gets a thorough review, why not this one? I am not "stuck disagreeing" I am disagreeing with a subject stuck on one side. BDH | ||
| victorjohanson Senior Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 1465 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.67.77.209 |
"Out of all the subjects on factnet I do consider this one to be a threshold of utmost importance." I guess that's your real disagreement with me--I don't. It doesn't matter to me if one calls them a cult, or an abusive church, or a deviant religious system, because I do believe it to be a question of semantics. The important thing is that their actions are exposed publicly so people can make informed choices. | ||
| imaskingwhy Intermediate Member Username: imaskingwhy Post Number: 115 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 216.40.83.170 |
Vic It seems to me that your concern of whether or not NTCC's actions are being exposed here on factnet is unwarranted. We have hit multitudes of subjects covering everything from doctrine to policy, abuse, control and every deviant act. I consider you to be an extremely insightful person with your thumb on the pulse of NTCC's grotesque shortcomings. Since you have been out of NTCC for a minute or 2 I find it a little disheartening that you seem to be on the fence with this one: "I don't insist on the cult designation, but neither do I dismiss it either. It just depends on what one considers a cult". It is a tough subject however are you not able to draw any conclusions with this? What is your definition of a cult. If semantics can stop this subject from gaining any real closure then semantics can be blamed for every other subjects misunderstandings and it would all be left up in the air. I am asking you to give it a little more serious concern and see what you come up with. I am curious what side of the fence you would be on. Like I said every EXer must face this, it can only be ignored for so long. Bryan David Hill | ||
| victorjohanson Senior Member Username: victorjohanson Post Number: 1467 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 216.67.70.63 |
"Since you have been out of NTCC for a minute or 2 I find it a little disheartening that you seem to be on the fence with this one: " I'm not even near that fence. It's not something I care one whit about. I don't think it matters, and don't intend to waste any time or energy worrying about it precisely because it both is and isn't a cult, depending on how narrowly one defines the word. Look--I've read lots of cult resource information, and by some very persuasive definitions (those of a social nature, based on group dynamics and how people are treated), NTCC qualifies in spades as a cult. Some, like you, would exclude them strictly on doctrinal grounds, even though they seem to be batting about .800 on most "marks of a cult" indexes. So are they a cult? Yes and no. |
