| Author | Message | ||
     philiprosenthal Senior Member Username: philiprosenthal Post Number: 1079 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
REDEMPTION COSTS MORE THAN CREATION I thought some people would be interested in Jack Hayford's comment to a group of EveryNation pastors (on Steve Murrell's blog). http://smurrell.multiply.com/journal/item/119/Every_Nation_Pastors_with_Jack_Hayford Jack Hayfords comment was: "Redemption costs more than creation. It is easier to walk away and start over - create something new - than to stay and be redemptive. It costs more to stay and redeem a difficult relationship. It would have been easier to build my own fellowship of churches, than to stay in my denomination and rebuild." In saying this, I think that Jack Hayford must have had some idea of the problems EveryNation has been struggling with. One of the EveryNation leaders added this insight: "When God created the world, he just spoke it into existence. When he redeemed the world, it cost him his Son." I think that those both in and outside His People EveryNation who have worked for reform can endorse that from their own experience. Building the organisation was much easier work than reforming it. Even easier than either building or reforming is destroying. So to all those leaders inside and outside EveryNation-His People who are working for reform and who read this message board, but don't post - please keep up pushing steadily for reform even when it is tough. God didn't give up on redeeming us - He paid a heavy price to do so. Let us follow his example and keep praying, speaking up and acting for reform. In some cases, that price involves getting pushed out of the organisation or becoming very unpopular. In other cases, it involves staying in a tough job. In other cases the pain may mean confessing and repenting of wrongdoing. Whatever the cost that God requires of us, let us be prepared to make the sacrifices. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1445 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
It would have been easier to build my own fellowship of churches, than to stay in my denomination and rebuild." but thats exactly what Rice Brooks, Phil Bonasso and Steve Murrel, together with the other founders of EN did. they did NOT be part of another church or moevement and try to build together with them, but they started EN. they created THEIR own environement, with THEIR own rules and - you guess - THEM in leadership and in charge. thats the thing i say over and over again. if THEY want to show competence in things like submission and obiedience, they should just become part of a normal church and sit there, and be quite. But they run away, started THEIR movement (a new paradigm church - dont forget the close affiliation with Peter Wagner). so its crazy to now expect people to not leave and not create something new in their lives. its mad to even compare it to what Jesus Christ did, as EN has - in my opinion - no real legitimation over many churches and ministries that joined them. why? because the merger (of ie HisPeople) was based on false promises, on false prophesies, on false facts (=lies), it was not based on a broad decision from the majority of pastors and church members. church members and normal pastors have only been informed about the merger when it has already happened. or before, but with NO option to be against it or to stop the progress. the desisions have been made OVER OUR HEADS! they have never been part of the decision making process, and the decissions anyhow whould NOT have been based on facts but on selfadvertising and false prophesies and heresies. thwerefore EN has no legal and no moral authority (certanly not from a scriptural viewpoint) over many churches and movement that they have drwan into them. so, Phil, what shall be reformed? a construct that was foundet inmorally? sometimes Jesus SMASHES the vessel. to reform EN is the same work of flesh than to build it. If EN would have been build on honesty, transparency, sound doctrine, love, humility, natural growth (not by swallowing other churches and movements), new converts, real mission (not the mission of a feudalistic livestyle in the name of God), real churchplants, then i would say, reform is a noble and valid task for the present and the future. unfortunately history proofs the oposite. EN did not grow through all the things i mentioned, but by managing growth through the use of secular and inmoral methods (false prophecies, false promises, etcetc...) the "fathers" ofd this movement have not been discipled in a normal and reformed chirstian church, but by BOB WEINER. the "fathers" of this movement have never been part of a normal christian church environement, but of "new paradigm", and "new apostolic churches", cultlice church environements that teach truth together with heresy. if they are concerned about beeing Christlike, then THEY SHALL SET AN EXAMPLE by LIVING CHRISTLIKE. this is again, an attempt to manipulate their churchmembers with pseudocrhistian rethorics, and with guild, fear and shame. its another attempt for a mystical manipulation, to controle the damage that has happened to their movement by the exposure of the many unrightessness that is happening behind the curtains. a leader must lead by HIS EXAMPLE. a reform would not be needed by such a young movement if it would have been build RIGHTOUSS from the beginning! if they want a reform, than THEY HAVE TO REFORM personally. they have to REPENT. they have to become like CHRIST.perhaps it will cost them their positions, their titles and perhaps even their movement. but it will bring them to CHRIST. and it will restore their integrity. MAY the LEADERS of EN START with REFORM! | ||
| ulyankee Senior Member Username: ulyankee Post Number: 1657 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 74.234.76.98 |
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (John 3:16); through Him all of us CAN be redeemed. HOWEVER, in order to actually BE redeemed through Christ, we have to first REPENT of our sins. If EN is to be redeemed as an organization, then it must also REPENT of its sins. Starting with its TOP LEADERS who must repent of their sins. I cannot comment on what has happened in South Africa, where if you are correct Philip, this may be taking place. However, I don't believe that has taken place among the US leadership on more than a surface level. Saying one is sorry in order to deflect criticism is not the same as repentance. An organization is not the same as "the church." The church, which consists of all believers who have repented and come to Him, is redeemed by His grace, through His precious Blood. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1497 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.130.223.223 |
Hi All, Catching up some, I agree with Robert very much, and He was a pastor in this of late. The precepts of this group are faulty as can be seen in these many pages and threads. NOW they cling to Calvinist reformed theology with it many faults , most salient about the Elect, which En now fancies themseleves along with aberrant Manifest Sons teachings. How can one build on rubble? If God does not build, man labours in vain.} | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3080 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.193.49.106 |
Well Robert said: why? because the merger of HisPeople was based on false promises, on false prophesies, on false facts =lies, it was not based on a broad decision from the majority of pastors and church members. church members and normal pastors have only been informed about the merger when it has already happened. or before, but with NO option to be against it or to stop the progress. the desisions have been made OVER OUR HEADS! they have never been part of the decision making process... 40: yeah that happened to my church during MCM after I left and many were disappointed when it was merged into Gary Sennas church and the congregation was not consulted first. Decisions like this were also made before I left by people like Rice and Bob. Perhaps there needs to be a Bill of Rights established for congregations, regarding mergers and stuff like that? - The congregation must have knowledge of plans an approve of them first. It's only fair, the congregation are not chess pieces to be moved around and asked to travel great distances to a new church home. Also Robert said: If EN would have been build on honesty, transparency, sound doctrine, love, humility, natural growth (not by swallowing other churches and movements), new converts, real mission (not the mission of a feudalistic livestyle in the name of God), real churchplants, then i would say, reform is a noble and valid task for the present and the future. 40: well sound doctrine is asking a little much but that is an excellent point about the feudal lifestyle of the leaders. Murrell needs to realize and teach the LEADERS everywhere that members of the congregation are people to, the congregations there are not just serfs under the domain of a feudal Lord. Anyway excellent points Robert.  | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3081 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.193.49.106 |
Ulaynkee said: If EN is to be redeemed as an organization, then it must also REPENT of its sins. Starting with its TOP LEADERS who must repent of their sins. 40: Yes I agree, they have said they have repented. I remember Maranatha, they said repent, not in 5 minutes or a day or a week or a few weeks but RIGHT NOW! - Yeah that is rich, they have not really repented for decades. That's okay but it's time for all EN Leaders and the SUPER ELITE ORIGINAL MCM Overlords to take their own advice, Ulyankee. JRJ I have my own water boarding techniques that involve a porcelain throne! |
