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the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 889
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 8:58 pm: | 
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Hello, Mr. Xman3
Now where did we leave off . . . I clearly showed there is not such thing as a second or subsequent event (Baptism, Indwelling, Outpouring) to salvation. I proved that every time tongues were spoken in the Bible, the apostles laid hands on the recipient. I proved every time tongues were spoken in the Bible, they were known languages. Let us see . . ..
What have you proven? That your debate makes a good Mobius.
Fake Healing:
We have had little discussion on the subject. I like your echo’s introduction of Smith Wigglesworth. Did you find it funny that God healed his hemorrhoids, but not his kidney stones? Myself, I always enjoy the claims of raising the dead. Hilarious!! Why pray tell are there any pentecostal preachers in the grave? I save my laugher to use later. UGH! UGH! I forgot ‘free will’. Why did Smith Wigglesworth “choose” to be sick? Especially ‘roids!!! Talk about a pain in the . . . .
I enjoyed reading your echo’s claims of fake healing. I really enjoyed your praise and joy at the announcement. Unfortunately, I have spend too many hours in hospitals and in hospice with cancer victims. The key word for me was “healed.” Ask any good doctor if one can be healed of cancer. The operative word is “remission.” The doctor treats the cancer (or tumor) he has located, and that cancer only. I will give you an example. A neighbor of mine, an undertaker, died from brain cancer believed to have been caused by embalming fluid. He was treated at Virginia Tech by the best doctors around.
Charley lived but a matter of months after being diagnosed. They kept giving him radiation treatments up until his death. Afterwards they opened him up (for research) to see why the procedures did not work. The tumor, the gun was aimed at, was blocked by three tumors the doctor did not know about. Had your echo’s cancer been seen by a doctor, the operative word would have been ‘remission’. Did your echo lie? Speak in the first hand of someone else’s experience? Wishful thinking? You decide.
Allow me to take a sidebar for a moment.
You asked a question under the title “Doctrines of Grace.” I told you I had no intention of entering into an argument on the subject of ‘free will’. The theory of ‘free will’ was invented by the Roman church, so far no one knowledgeable of the subject has spoken. The perverted theory being discussed is simply laughable to anyone who has read the Bible.
Nonetheless, you asked so I will, like always, answer. What difference does was a man has to say affect what you believe, because you found what you believe in the Bible. Jim Jones also found what he preached in the Bible, do you see? What does the homosexual Parham have to do with what you believe? It was/is his vision your religion is trying to substantiate. Had you attended a Church of Christ, for example, you would never have found your religion’s (pentecostalism’s)
Continued |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 890
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 9:01 pm: |
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crapology in the Bible. Had you attended an Adventist church, you would just as strongly support ‘soul sleep’.
That is what a man had to say affects your beliefs. You did not find faked infantile gibberish nor faked healing in the Bible. You did not because no one else can find. You brought hook/line/sinker into everything your religion told you. In fact, I can say factually, you spend more time selecting the pair of underwear you have on than you did religions to worship.
Post it if you can find it. Every scripture you have posted so far has been distorted beyond belief. Even Mr. MCMSTAFF78 agrees on that one. Not one scripture you have offered to date has not had a more logical, more plausible, more believable interpretation. You rely exclusively on your religion for a defense.
Back to our discussion of fake healing.
Ask any doctor, “have you experienced a divine healing?” Everyone will answer in the affirmative. Ask them, “have you every heard of a single fake healing?” Not one single soul has ever experienced one of your religion’s faked healings. There are hundreds of books on the market exposing your religion’s lunacies. There are mega dollars available to anyone who can prove otherwise. Why do you think those bucks are available?
Now here is your chance to shine. Tony.
My biological father passed away at an early age. Tony became my stepfather. Tony’s doctor got him to take a PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen) count. Tony’s test came back with a number of 113. Most doctors say a count of 20 or above is nearly always cancer (prostate). A digital rectal examine was negative. Tony was retested several times in the following years each time the number was unchanged. Tony began having problems associated with BPH (Benign Hypertrophy of the Prostate). You can memorize those letters now, at some point in life you will have to (I hope not, at least). Unfortunately for men folks, the prostate is a very real problem later in life.
Tony’s PSA count went up to 117. The doctor, and right so, convinced Tony to allow him to perform a needle biopsy. Everything was set for an outpatient clinic on Thursday morning. Wednesday night, we gather in my church to pray for a successful outcome. I might add every church in town joined our prayer. Thursday morning the mailman delivered a tub of Get Well cards to the house for Tony. Hundreds had joined hands in prayer.
The results came back, nine completely negative. The tenth biopsy did not have enough tissue to make a determination. Would Tony like to repeat? Yes. A month later, we went through the same routine. We prayed Wednesday night, Tony went into outpatient services Thursday morning. This time the doctor took fourteen needle biopsies. Again, we feared the worst. The results came back. All fourteen biopsies were negative. Tony’s condition got worst, not better.
He was diagnosed by a VA (Veterans Administration) doctor with TB (tuberculosis). Tony went through a year of treatment for TB. Tony appeared to get better. Then around Christmas time, Tony went downhill seriously. We hospitalized him to little avail. His PSA count was up to 121.
Continued |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 891
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 9:03 pm: |
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His doctor wanted to remove Tony’s prostate. He was given permission to do so. Tony’s prostate was sent out for testing. The results came back negative for cancer.
Tony died in February of that year from lung cancer (no one had even dreamed he had lung cancer). I am fairly sure I can find some of Tony’s medical records. I know I can find his doctor to certify my claims. Now I have a question for you.
No, my friend, I won’t let you off that easy. Yes, it would be easy to ask you if I healed Tony. The records clearly indicate something took place. No, my friend, I won’t ask why Tony was healed of prostate cancer and TB but not lung cancer. No, my friend, I won’t ask if you believe Tony was a medical anomaly. I agree with the doctor on that one. Any good doctor will tell you that is why they call it practicing medicine.
My question is “what would your religion claim?” How many of your echos will give first hand renderings of this tomorrow in your churches? Oh! By the by, I need but one verse of scripture to disprove Smith Wigglesworth. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1640
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:04 pm: |
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Oh ATAM I got to throw some scripture in. You love this and it is up for discussion.
2 Timothy 4:20 KJV
(20) Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
Philippians 2:27 KJV
(27) For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
Paul the apostle traveling companions, NOt miraclously healed. Got sick like you and I. Simply God sometimes takes us through instead of solving the problem immediately.
2 Corinthians 1:3-7 KJV
(3) Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
(4) Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
(5) For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
(6) And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
(7) And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
Deal with it ATAM a purpose in God's wonderful plan. Yet often we don't understand this. Learning to yield to His will so all might come to know Him. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 782
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.154.189
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:36 pm: |
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Where to begin...
I'll start by saying that we'll set aside the past "discussion" for now since we have significantly different views on how that went which are all available for all to read and decide for themselves. I will simply say that I have not given but 2 or 3 scriptures, and I didn't use them to say anything you believe most pentacostals use them to say at all. Second, I have not attempted as of yet to prove anything because we never got past my first 2 or 3 questions. Feel free to show me where I have misapplied a scripture though, and I will explain how I haven't.
Before I answer your question, I must comment on one aspect of that question “what would your religion claim?”.
I often laugh at some of the excesses of charismatic Christians, and I am also often angered at much of what is done and said in the name of Jesus by the same. In some ways, we are a messed up bunch and as far as I'm concerned most of us as individuals don't fit into the mold of the crazy pentacostal you are trying to expose. You've taken the worst aspects of some of the teaching and behavior, or the traditional interpretations of the past "moves" of charismania and applied them to everyone who essentially speaks in tongues.
Truth is, it's not my religion. Sure I believe I speak in tongues, but I have a lot of different views, interpretations, and opinions on things than most of the things you keep saying pentacostals believe. Maybe there is a version out there that is exactly like you paint, but most people are a lot more independent minded in their relationship with God and in understanding the Word than to have ever bought into a lot of it. I agree with a lot of what you say, and of course, I disagree with a lot.
I am not represented at all by Jim Jones, Pahrnum, Copeland, or any of the others you bring up. I like some of what some of them have to say, but I have real problems with other stuff. There really is no person, ministry, or denomination that I claim as my religion. I am a Christian, and my beliefs are based on the Bible as I understand it. I have admittedly sat under mostly pentacostal teaching, though I spoke in tongues before I did so, but I have a tremendous variety of all that and more in my short 25 years of serving God.
To answer your question. Sadly, I've heard too many ministers preach as if things were first hand that weren't. It's disgusting, but more a reflection on the man (or woman) than any "religion. With the advent of these big money making media machines out there, mostly the pentacostals you would say, I think that this obsession with money paints a bad picture for the rest of the many, many pastors who believe similarly and are serving humbly in their churches. I don't consider their excesses a reflection on my religion personally, but I understand the general indictment.
I don't know why God heals some and not others. I have little insight into some of these matters. You would be hard pressed to discredit Smith Wigglesworth. He was a man who read only the Bible, and devoted his life to preaching salvation and praying for people. He was a great man who truly loved people in my estimation whether he believed right or not. I found his biography to be very inspirational. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 784
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.154.189
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:02 pm: |
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Based on the title here, TATM, I will ask you a question. You call them fake healings.
Fake healings carries a connotation that someone has intentionally deceived someone. It doesn't actually come out and say that, but a fake person is usually not so by accident. I realize the value of the dramatic effect of such loaded language, but I am wondering.
Do you think that pentacostals as a whole are intentionall faking healings or intentionally lying about healings that have taken place, or do you think that they are merely deceived and blinded by the emotions and atmosphere of so much of this stuff? |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 736
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 12:44 am: |
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tatm: I find the word "cr##ology" rather offensive. I do not think it is befitting of a minister of God to speak such words. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 892
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 2:02 pm: |
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Mr. Termin8d:
The scribes and pharisees found the word "whited sepulchres" offensive. Did Jesus apologize? My mammy taught me to call a spade, a spade, and let the chips fall where they may. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 893
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 2:19 pm: |
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Mr. Xman3:
I see little need to start an argument answering your question when one of your echos answered the question for you. Your echo stated that he would never attend a church service that was not a circus.
I strongly suggest you check History Channel (I believe that is the right network). They just ran a program entitled "Healing Waters." The Roman church has several sites around the world were actual healings have been documented. On the other hand, many doctors have followed your fake healers, not one has documented an actual healing.
You keep brushing aside Jim Jones. Come my friend, deal with him. Jim Jones found every thing he taught in scripture.
Quoting: ". . . though I spoke in tongues before I did so . . ."
End quote.
Again, waffles anyone? You previously stated you were told to seek 'tongues' at the altar. Later that day, you began speaking in 'tongues'. you went on to disavow any psychological suggestion. I would hope you clarify this time. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 788
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.252.74.40
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 11:24 pm: |
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One doesn't need to discuss Jim Jones in particular. It appears the point you are making is anyone can claim just about anything they do and believe is from the Bible and perhaps, be "sincere'. I agree. It's certainly not unique to pentacostals.
I had hands laid on me and I was prayed for to be baptised in the Holy Spirit and was told I would speak in tongues. This didn't occur at "the altar" however, except metaphorically speaking. This 10 minute experience did not magically brainwash me into conjuring up the experience I had in speaking and singing (which I had not ever heard of) in tongues for several hours. I had been told though, to clarify.
In an intellectual sense, I wouldn't disavow ANY psychological suggestion, but even intellectually and logically that small experience wouldn't explain the subsequent months of praying in tongues with absolutely no other outside teaching. Just me and my Bible for as many hours as there were in my day.
It really matters little anymore though, because I've changed my beliefs over the years in many areas. For instance, I'm satisfied that any believer can speak in tongues if they are saved because they have the Holy Spirit, the source of tongues then and now. Though I understand the reasoning for those who insist there must be a subsequent experience, I do not see its neccessity. Therefore, with me, all your arguments about the subsequent experience aspect are irrelevent.
As for healing, I was more interested in your personal opinion on whether it is intentionally faked. I think there are instances, such as the Popoff scandal where it is, but usually it is not. I'm not as naive as I seem though, but like my friend jbk, I don't really see a need to start publically indicting individuals in particular.
The Bible doesn't really address the healing ministry of Benny Hinn in particular, for instance. The Bible has a lot to say about healing and about ministry however. I find there are usually good things about the bad apples, and bad things about the good apples, and that no one example out there measures up universally to everyones views of the kingdom of God.
It seems to me that when it comes down to it, tongues is a controversial aspect of pentacostalism that defines the thing, whereas healing is something that is merely an area that the tongue talkers are misusing. I don't know that there is some special pentacostal doctrine on healing. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 897
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 7:25 am: |
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Come, Mr. Xman3
How is that you, a confessed greenhorn, found faked infantile gibberish in the Bible when great theologians (Dr. D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey, Charles Ryrie, John Wesley studied their Bibles their entire lifes) never found faked infantile gibberish in scripture. Are you smarter than anyone else? Luckier? Great reader? |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 790
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.252.74.40
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 7:27 am: |
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I didn't find faked infantile gibberish in the Bible. Did you? |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 898
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 7:53 am: |
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hehehehe, Mr. Xman3
You can answer my question, can't you? |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 3069
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.195.104.253
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 8:16 am: |
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the_apostolic_truth_ministries
The guy above is ignorant. Jim Jones did not believe in God, he was a socialist, they had plays in Jones Town mocking the existence of God, kids holding posters of the sky God or whatever. They mocked the existence of God, you lose there.
Hmmmm, tongues?? You say they have to be interpreted or they were spoken to others who understood the language?
Hey dude, what about ANGELIC tongues, forgot about that one Mr. apeostolic untruth ministries dude. Did Paul talk about those types of tongues? How many humans know that language fraud boy? Or will you deny scripture?
What is the point of turtle boy or girl other then some are sick? Duh!
You wan't to mock Wigglesworth because he was cured of hemorrhoids? He had multiple resurrections under his ministry even though his wife was partly deaf and his son George died young. Maybe God allows a giant in faith some failures to keep him humble and in line?
You Apostolic untruth are more like Jim Jones then anyone here. You have no FAITH! you don't believe. |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 3070
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.195.104.253
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 8:34 am: |
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Apostolic Truth are you a non believing fundamentalist or a fan of the RCC mystery/papist religion? where they exhume bodies and keep body part relics around for show. I mean it sounds like you say some of those healings are legit.
If Jim Jones, a non believer faked healings? So what. Like I said he is closer to you then me or X-man. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 4351
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.3
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 8:40 am: |
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40/40, you are about to enter the Twilight Zone. Good luck trying to figure this dude out.  |
40days40years
Senior Member
Username: 40days40years
Post Number: 3071
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 172.195.104.253
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 8:48 am: |
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He is ticking me off, he is ripping apart one of the most gentle members or our "church" ! |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 4353
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 216.226.180.3
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 9:33 am: |
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He's kind of like Fred Phelps. There is absolutely NOBODY on Factnet he has seen eye to eye with. These "churches of us four and no more" types, who won't identify their affiliation don't carry any weight with me.
This guy is one of those types who drives around in an old Ford van with stickers all over it. You have seen the type. Spends all his life telling people how wrong they are instead of finding something we can share in common. Jesus is Lord just doesn't seem to be enough for him, TRS, etc.
And like you, I find Xman to be one of the ones in here who exhibits true humble Christian character. Until I see that out of TATM, I could care less whether Xman speaks in tongues. I wish I could follow his (Xman's)example more often. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 745
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 10:51 pm: |
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I second that. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 791
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.14.46.22
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 3:12 am: |
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Thanks guys. Don't worry about me though. I kind of like tatm and don't mind his methods usually. (I will keep my eyes peeled for that van though Matt.)
You know tatm. As in individual, sometimes I don't feel that I have much impact on the body of Christ as a whole, and such it is in regards to "pentacostalism". I can't disagree with some of the things you point out, and I myself don't always know whether to laugh or cry at some of what I see out there amongst my fellow tongue talking brethren. I don't attribute it to, or limit it to pentacostals though, but the media and money thing has brought them to the forefront to be sure.
Having said that, I don't have the desire or the ability to defend what you call pentacostalism. I can, however, defend what I believe and practice, and that includes tongues and my understanding of healing. As I said earlier though, it's really only tongues that defines pentacostals.
To defend what I believe requires that I take things one point at a time. There is a reason I ask you if Biblical tongues is sourced in the Holy Spirit. My personal belief is based on this fact. When you acknowledge this is true, then I can move on. For one reason or another you choose to keep your theology or whatever you want to call it in regards to the Holy Spirit secret. It appears your fixation with pentacostalism could well be rooted in that, but one can only surmise that from your silence.
As you said concerning Jim Jones, he used the Bible to support his belief. Well, like Jim Jones, so do you. Also like Jim Jones, perhaps, you also hold some abberrent beliefs concerning the Holy Spirit that would tend to discredit some of your conclusions. That's what seperated Jim Jones from even pentacostals. His extra strange beliefs. Most likely that's what seperated him from main stream Christianity also.
For the purpose of our discussion I will clarify. I accept the following. There were problems in some of the early roots of pentacostalism. Parnum is apparently not credible, though I never heard of him untill you brought him up. Dake's Bible is not credible. Samarin's study is somewhat compelling. Some of the earliest church writers were opposed to tongues, yet those who weren't were branded heretics because of believing them and thereby were inherrently disqualified by those who claimed authority over them for that very reason. This means to me that I do not discredit tertullian, for instance, for the same reasons they do.
None of that supercedes scripture however, and ultimately that is where my foundations lie. You can accuse me from afar of merely believing what I was told, but the way to take that from an idle accusation to a point in fact would be to complete a dialogue in regards to my beliefs rather than pentacostalism at large which we both know is a mess in some areas. As in regards to almost every point you make, if 81% of all pentacostals believe as they do because of what someone suggested to them, that has nothing to do with me as in individual.
An obvious example you see almost every day is the difference between what I believe and say and what arron believes and says. Quite different at times, yet both "pentacostal". |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 899
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 7:03 am: |
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Mr. Xman3:
Next time you point fingers at someone unwilling/unable to answer questions, make sure you describe yourself as that person. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 796
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.202.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 4:23 am: |
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I really don't know how to respond to that silliness. I always answer your questions. There are many questions I might be unable to answer though. You are possibly referring to any number of questions that are phrased in a manner like "can you explain why your religion believes such and such...", but those don't usually apply to me, and as I've said multiple times, I have no desire or ability to defend the religion of pentacostalism. I can defend my own beliefs though, and to the best of my knowledge have answered every appropriate question.
I appear to have touched a nerve there from my perspective. I trust eventually you will tire of dancing around the same questions and answer them. We'll probably end up in agreement on more than you think too. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 904
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 7:25 am: |
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Mr. Xman3:
EH? AH? Hmm . . . your antithesis is showing!! The questions you refuse to answer are aimed directly at you, by the way. I will repeat them again.
Quoting: “How is that you, a confessed greenhorn, found faked infantile gibberish in the Bible when great theologians (Dr. D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey, Charles Ryrie, John Wesley studied their Bibles their entire lives) never found faked infantile gibberish in scripture. Are you smarter than anyone else? Luckier? Great reader?”
End quote.
Ps. All the above men found biblical tongues in scripture. In fact, every theologian in the last two-thousand-years has found biblical tongues, none have found the faked infantile gibberish of your religion. As to my take on the Holy Ghost, I fully agree with these men. Again, unlike your religion I believe God. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 801
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.7.202.90
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 7:47 am: |
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I did answer you. I said I did not find faked infantile gibberish in the Bible. I too see Biblical tongues in the Bible. Looks like we agree there.
Once again I must prove how you accuse me of not answering when I have.
Quoting TATM- How is that you, a confessed greenhorn, found faked infantile gibberish in the Bible when great theologians (Dr. D. L. Moody, R. A. Torrey, Charles Ryrie, John Wesley studied their Bibles their entire lifes) never found faked infantile gibberish in scripture. Are you smarter than anyone else? Luckier? Great reader?
Now there is your question.
Here, is my answer.
I didn't find faked infantile gibberish in the Bible. Did you?
My answer emains the same. I also, like those fellows, see Biblical tongues in scripture so it appears we agree there. |
saygoodnightgracie
Intermediate Member
Username: saygoodnightgracie
Post Number: 361
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 96.228.213.29
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 8:51 am: |
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tatm
my dad is tougher than your dad |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3829
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 12:29 pm: |
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tatm ... you have never told what church (by name ) you attend you have never said where your doctorate, if nay came from and who you were ordianed by so dont talk about people not answering questions till you answer these. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 905
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 8:13 pm: |
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hehehehehhehehehehehehee, you know Mr. Xman3, if I did not know better I would say you are a great standup comedian!!! Now come, please try real, real real, hard to answer my question. You can answer my question, can't you? Or shall we brush off the requiem? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3831
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 8:45 pm: |
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tatm...no laughing now please answer my questions asked many times |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 802
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.157.106
| | Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 10:20 pm: |
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OK, I'll stop the comedy routine. We don't really agree on whether my speaking in tongues is the same as Biblical tongues after all, do we.
My point is obviously that it is difficult to carry on an intelligent converstaion when one party uses such talk as "faked infantile gibberish" in referring to tongues. It's childishly disrespectful and doesn't really merit a real answer.
As I said, I don't see faked infantile gibberish in the Bible any more than you do. That's the literal answer to your question as phrased. I am unable to decipher the phrase "Or shall we brush off the requiem". |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 908
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 7:13 am: |
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Mr. Xman3:
As me mammy useda say, "a rose by any other name is still a rose." Call it faked infantile gibberish, psychobabble, or nonsensically gabble, It is all the same. Now, again, try to answer my question. How is it that you found _____________ in scripture when no one else can? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3833
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 2:14 pm: |
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now you , tatm are making fun of the blacks for they are the only one who used to call their mother mammy. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 912
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 7:24 am: |
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Mr. Xman3:
I see you still can't answer my simple question. Should I be surprised? As I have maintained all along, you rely on the teachings of man to support your religion, not the Word of God. Next time you ask "what does the homosexual Parham or pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism have to do with you?" You will find the answer here with this question. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3839
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:05 am: |
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tatm.. when you answer the simple question (unless it is one that you cant understand) what church , by name you belong to, and what doctorate you have where it came from and who conferred it on you and who orained you perhap you will get answer |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3840
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:18 am: |
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tatm.. when you answer the simple question (unless it is one that you cant understand) what church , by name you belong to, and what doctorate you have where it came from and who conferred it on you and who orained you perhap you will get answer |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 920
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 7:46 pm: |
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Mr. Xman3:
Have you ever studied the Salem Witch Trials? |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 750
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 8:51 pm: |
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Arron: It is evident that tatm does not wish to disclose such details. I would suggest that you cease this line of questioning. It does not appear to be particularly profitable. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 803
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.131.231
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 4:12 am: |
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There are a lot of historical and current preachers and teachers out there that I respect who do not speak in tongues and do not feel it's of God. If I take your word for it and accept that the fellows you listed were such, then so be it.
There are also a lot of preachers and teachers historically and current that I respect that do speak in tongues and believe it's of God.
Some see it in scripture, and some don't. In no way do I consider myself on such a learned level as them, on both sides of the issue actually. I have my own simple Bible based beliefs and am realy just now learning about some of this other stuff.
All through history and till today people have created a theological box they live in, which prevents them from seeing anything in the Bible or often elsewhere outside of that box. Greater men than them have been wrong, and sometimes god corrects them, and sometimes not.
I like Peter, who after years with close discipleship with Jesus himself, did NOT know that gentiles could be saved. I mean that's salvation 101 for us, or we'd be lost. God had to supernaturally show him. Even the best can be wrong.
In my opinion, those who either choose to not speak in tongues or theologize them away are missing out of a valuble gift. I'm very satisfied that even if I were wrong, God won't hold it against me.
If you wonder where I see it in scripture, well it's primarily in the verses continuously discussed. In our discussion, we never got past the first scripture I used which I will be more than happy to resurrect again to show you where I see what I see.
As I've stated continuously, I could not and would not attempt to support what you include in your crusade against pentacostalism. Essentially it comes down to a belief that tongues and the other gifts of the spirit are still working today. They are intertwined and from the same Holy Spirit.
Aside from the scripture I initially used, I also make a scripturally supported claim that I would like to hear you admit, because it is true and step one in my support of what i believe. I have the exact same Holy Spirit as anyone who ever spoke in Biblical tongues and operated in any gift. He is the source, and He is the same today, and he resides in me. Same Holy Spirit. Agreed? |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 922
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:28 am: |
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Mr. Xman3:
Quoting: "All through history and till today people have created a theological box they live in, which prevents them from seeing anything in the Bible or often elsewhere outside of that box. Greater men than them have been wrong, and sometimes god corrects them, and sometimes not."
End quote.
Any chance you are speaking of yourself? |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 805
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.131.231
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 2:38 pm: |
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Yes, I include myself. I try and really understand why people believe as they do and I have been revisiting a lot of things lately, but I don't think anyone can escape the fact that we are all coming fron one pre-conceived perspective or another. I truly hope that the Lord does correct me where I am wrong. |
hardbones
Member
Username: hardbones
Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.53.16.4
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 5:48 pm: |
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I think that would be true of all of us to a greater or lessor extent. It's true theologically and also from a cultural perspective. |
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