| Author | Message | ||
     the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 881 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Every year about this time newspapers begin to load up with articles on Christmas. Even our resident expert has provided first hand knowledge on the birth of Christ. He was there boiling water for the midwife on December 25, 0000 when Jesus Christ was born in a manger. Actually, the fall feast celebrating the god of the forest, complete with evergreen tree, can be found in the old Testament long before the birth of Christ. So where does Christmas come from? Dare I say, hundreds claim to have founded Christmas (commercial - secular). Many religions, Jehovah’s Witnesses, do not celebrate Christmas. Many more religions claim the Roman church took a pagan holiday and turned it in a church holiday. Again, where did Christmas come from? The last of the dozen or so times I was in Rome, the Italians did not celebrate Christmas (with a few Americanized exceptions). The Roman church celebrates the Feast of First Things in January. That feast ends on January 7th with the birth of Jesus Christ. Read any good encyclopedia (Wikipedia is not a good encyclopedia). In my experience, Italians do not have a commercial Christmas as worshiped here in the west. On New Year’s Eve, the family practices out with the old. All major purchases (furniture, appliances, cars, etc.). are made in early January. “Out with the old, in with the new” is the best description of the Italian Feast of Epiphany. The claim by our resident expert that Jesus Christ was actually born on December 25 is sheer lunacy. Israel’s weather is near identical to our weather in the U.S.A. The shepherds would not have their flocks in the field in December. The weather is far to bad that time of the year. Worse yet, proving December 25 is like proving the Sabbath is Saturday. Most scholars put the birth of Christ during the summer months, many say in September. Again, read any good encyclopedia. I am rather positive that my friend, will point out that every possible source has been discredited (except of course for him). So where did December 25 come from? Here in the United States, it came from Congress. Early in the War between the States, Christmas was celebrated between October and April. The exact date depended on family traditional, country of origin, and local practice. Independence Day was celebrated between April and October. Again the exact date depended on which colony a person came from, family tradition and local custom. Lincoln ordered Congress to establish National Holidays, the tradition continues until this day. Martin Luther King Day is a recent example. Here is an offer you simply can not refuse. Why July 4th? I am willing to give you a purple ditty bag full of winning lotto tickets, if you can answer that!! Save your ink. No one knows where December 25th or July 4th came from. The minutes from Congress were lost in a fire at the National Archives. July 4th is not related to any of the dates associated with Independence. Again save your ink. The Los Angeles Times ran an article on the subject a while back. For those associated with a veterans group, the article was also carried in the DAV & VFW magazines. Want another myth or two? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 882 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
There are three wise men. I know several women who sneer when you use the word ‘wise’ and ‘men’ in the same sentence. I know at least one who laughs out loud. Where there three wise men? Look it up in your Bible. Scripture does not quantify wise men, it numbers the gifts they bore. I have never seen a Christmas play in church that didn’t have exactly three wise men. Sorry, it is not in the Bible. “Hark the herald, the angels do sing, Glory to the new born king!” Charles Wesley’s best known song. Yes, it is a song and not a hymn. It is not a hymn because it is not biblical. Try declare. Again, spend a few moments with any quality Bible. You can not find a singing angel. Christmas, like Franklin’s turkey, is more myth than fact. Until recently, no one knew when they were born. Most dates in history are given as ‘circa’ rather than exact days. The calender has been changed too many times to set dates, not to mention nobody wrote down the dates. Birth dates or days, as a holiday, is purely a recent invention. Look up Feast of Epiphany on the web. You will find ‘epiphany’ means first things. As a holiday, it was founded circa 325 AD. The birth of Christ was celebrated on the last day, January 7. Make your own traditions. Celebrating or not celebrating will not help any on Judgement Day. Believe it or not. | ||
| searchlight86 Intermediate Member Username: searchlight86 Post Number: 442 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.105.80.57 |
Yup, but it would be quite interesting if Christ was incarnated on Christmas Day, using the world's pagan practices to glorify Himself anyway! This cannot be proven conclusively, but is quite possible from Biblical and other historical evidence: http://www.christiananswers.net/christmas/mythsaboutchristmas.html http://www.icr.org/article/375/ | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1988 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
T(not)atm - please provide the OT references to the "fall feast celebrating the god of the forest". You are always entertaining. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1989 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Also, please see http://www.struggler.org/birth3.htm for some contrary perspective. The tendency to downplay the celebration of the Birth of Christ stems from the same spirit as Arius and Nestorius, to make Christ something other than God in the Flesh! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 888 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: May I recommend a good Bible? Your assertion to make Christ anything but God is sheer lunacy. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1993 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Perhaps you might read what I wrote again, t(not)atm. My assertion was that those who downplay Christmas are of the same spirit as those who make Christ out to be other than God in the flesh. But thank you for the offer. | ||
| termin8d Advanced Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 738 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 60.234.129.189 |
1 Timothy 1:4 4 Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy, which is in faith. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1998 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
In what way does this apply? | ||
| termin8d Advanced Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 741 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 60.234.129.189 |
I think talking about if there were 3 wise men or not, when they arrived, whether or not the angels sung, all these sorts of things are unprofitable. That's just my 5 cents. | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 982 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
Was the birth of Christ celebrated in the firt 100 years after the death of Christ? | ||
| ba2 Senior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 1129 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.16.117 |
Was the birth of Christ celebrated in the firt 100 years after the death of Christ? Answer - No. The birth of Christ was not celebrated until the Roman Emperor Constantine decided to celebrate his birth. Clearly, it was not celebrated before the First Council of Nicaea, (present-day Iznik in Turkey), met in 325. The earliest mention I ever found of December 25 as the birth date of Jesus occurred in A.D. 336 in an early Roman calendar. If anyone has some documentation for an earlier date, I would like to know more about it. Nevertheless, about that time, the celebration of this day as Jesus' birth date was probably created to counter the influence of the pagan festivals held at that time. The ancient Romans held year-end celebrations to honor Saturn, their harvest god; and Mithras, the sun god. In many regions, and also in the U.S., the festivities originally attributed to the gift-giving of St. Nicholas have been transferred from December 6 to Christmas. The Dutch spelled St. Nicholas as Sint Nikolaas, which became corrupted to Sinterklaas, and finally, in Anglican, to Santa Claus. Imagine that! Santa is based on a real person. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2009 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
The earliest reference to the celebration of Christ's birth as a separate feast is from Clement of Alexandria about 200 AD. As I asserted on the other thread, originally the Nativity of Christ was celebrated as part of the Feast of Theophany on Jan. 6, as that feast centered on all aspects of Christs appearance in the world. The celebration of His Nativity separately, and in December, slowly grew until it was pretty universal approx. 500 AD. That it was not celebrated universally in the first 100 years after Christ's death seems irrelevant. I'm betting your church has "altar calls". These grow out of Methodist and Finney revival practices from the 19th century. I'm betting there are whole lot of practices most modern churches do that were not done in the first 100 years after Christ's death and whole lot more that were done which are not done now by modern churches. St. Nicholas was Bishop of Myra in Lycia (Asia Minor) and died approx. 350 AD. His feast day is still commemorated by millions of people around the world on Dec. 6. He was an extremely charitable and holy man. | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 987 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
mcm, I agree totally with your second paragraph. There are many practices in the church which do not have any biblical foundation. December 25 is one, along with the other items that were mentioned My point was that the death of Christ, and what we refer to as the "Last Supper", were celebrated; not his birth. Early Christians did not celebrate their birthdays. I love Christmas, and we have our pagan tree up and running. I am planning a neigborhood tree worship service, with Sinterklass as our guest speaker...well...the tree is up at least. I have visited the web site which you gave, and I must say that it is very interesting information. However, the Orthodox Church does have its primary origins in the Catholic doctrines and traditions, and as such, is not always an unbiased source of information. I have noticed that much of your support for what you have posted echo's that of the websites text. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2012 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
No, the Orthodox Church has its "origins" in the One, Holy, Apostolic Church. As for "echoing", well, I'm an Orthodox Christian so that would make sense. Without evidence to the contrary, I see no reason to doubt the facts as presented. It doesn't matter who presents the facts, if those facts are accurate. Deal with the facts regardless of what you might consider the deficiency of the source. I would suggest a whole lot of things were celebrated by the early Church that is not specified in the scriptures. Certainly the Jewish believers continued, until they were kicked out of the synagogues, to celebrate the Jewish feasts as having been fulfilled in Christ. Additionally, from the beginning the Church has celebrated the Resurrection of Christ, on both a weekly (Sunday is the Resurrection Day not the Sabbath - the Adventists have it at least half right) and yearly basis. As for the Christmas tree being "pagan", I will quote the following (non-Orthodox) source:
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| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2015 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
There really is quite a bit of information out there regarding the myth of the "pagan" origins of Christmas and/or various elements of its celebration. Just try googling "christmas tree 'not pagan'" ( the "not pagan" in quotes to search for the phrase) and you'll find quite a lot, little of it from sources you might find questionable, that provides some of the same information. The interesting thing is that the whole "pagan Christmas" myth arose out of 18th or 19th century anti-catholic sentiment. This is one of those things that "everybody knows" that simply turns out not to have any historical foundation. | ||
| ba2 Senior Member Username: ba2 Post Number: 1130 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 165.189.16.117 |
I agree that it is all irrelevant. It seems that most all Christian practices are based on some pagan religion. This is how one takes a pagan practice away from the pagans, just like what was done to halloween. Now we make fun of the pagan gods. Clement of Alexandria speculated that Christ was born on November 17, 3 BC. Certainly not Dec 25th. Most scholars place it in the Spring. In the early church there seems to have been no celebration of Jesus' birth. At least I can't find any evidence of it. Earliest documentation I can find is during the reign of the Roman Emperor Constantine. These are not important points for me, just a curiosity. Mostly because my Church make a big deal about putting an X in front of MAS or calling the tree a "holiday" tree. I think if they knew the roots of these practices, they would not make such a big deal. | ||
| fatherofaking Senior Member Username: fatherofaking Post Number: 2632 Registered: 8-2005 Posted From: 71.255.151.176 |
correct me if i am wrong here. christian dogma says: paganism bad. christmas is documented as being pagan. halloween is documented as being pagan. easter is documented as being pagan. shall we continue? maybe we should say that christians are pagan? | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 988 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
mcmstaff78, It doesn't matter who presents the facts, if those facts are accurate. Deal with the facts regardless of what you might consider the deficiency of the source. The facts are not that accurate, when compared with the corpus of textual information regarding this subject. That is not an attack on you or your denomination. Look, we are never going to agree on this, and that is ok. Let's have a glass of eggnog and callit good. | ||
| watchman_2 Senior Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 3615 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
My knowledge on the subject places the immaculate conception of Christ on December 25 based upon the Book of Luke. His subsequent birth in late September -- September 29. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2016 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Bear, present the "corpus" of "textual information". What you have is a multitude of people regurgitating the same fallacies but never presenting any primary sources. Show me the primary sources indicating these things stem from pagan practices or that those practices pre-date the Christian ones. Watchman - first of all, "immaculate conception" is Latin doctrine regarding the conception of the Virgin Mary, not Christ. Second, regarding the conception of Christ, on what is your "knowledge" based? Based on Luke 1, when Zacharias (the father of the John the Forerunner) served in the Temple, with the the conception of Christ being six months later, then Christ was conceived in March and born in December. | ||
| watchman_2 Senior Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 3618 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
mcm, O.K. -- duly noted. I was referring to Christ's conception. Yes, the conception date of December 25 is based upon the Zacharias' service of the course of Abia in June. Upon completion and travel time home plus the 6 months, one can determine a December 25 conception date. | ||
| termin8d Advanced Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 748 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 60.234.129.189 |
Umm Watchman_2, you mean born instead of conceived don't u? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 901 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: Is there any chance someone other than yourself might be right? | ||
| watchman_2 Senior Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 3619 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
termin8d, Nope. Christ was conceived December 25 and born in late September -- say Sept. 29. | ||
| termin8d Advanced Member Username: termin8d Post Number: 749 Registered: 7-2005 Posted From: 60.234.129.189 |
Oh ok. Are you certain that this is fact? Was it quite common in those days to celebrate the conception of a person rather than their birth? | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 798 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.202.90 |
I've read MCM's source, and I've read watchman's stuff and heard Murray talk about it also, and both seem to have merit. The assumption in MCM's article was which feast was occuring. This is probably what seperates things. The evidence was strong to me, a completely unknowledgeable reader, in support of MCM's view. In practice, I personally don't care about the roots or dates too much. I do celebrate the birth of Jesus, but the whole package of the decorations, the tree, the gifts, and the family make it the greatest holiday of the year no matter what. I love Jesus, and I love Christmas. | ||
| watchman_2 Senior Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 3620 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
termin8d, I can't speak to the historical perspective of the celebration. I only provided the Biblical perspective as to when Christ was conceived and born. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2021 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
T(not)ATM - why, would that be you? You might as well ask yourself the same question. All I ask for is sources. No one wants to provide primary sources for their views (you especially), but I provided a link that quotes a number of quite early sources, not modern day "scholarly" speculation 2000 years after the event. Watchman keeps claiming Christ was conceived on De. 25 - a joke, as there is no evidence and he has presented no biblical argument, only his assertion "my knowledge of the subject". Well, excuse me, let us all bow down to watchman's "knowledge" (oh, and yours as well). There's a lot of info out there, avail yourself of it. | ||
| watchman_2 Senior Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 3621 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
mcm, I apologize if I missed a previous request to provide further documentation. I, however, did answer the general question by referencing the Book of Luke and the connection to Zacharias' service during the course of Abia. It has already been documented and detailed here at Factnet by Abiyah. Please refer to her following posts: http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369071#POST369071 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369072#POST369072 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369073#POST369073 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369074#POST369074 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369076#POST369076 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369077#POST369077 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369079#POST369079 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369080#POST369080 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369081#POST369081 http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=369083#POST369083 Enjoy! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2023 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
I'll take the research I've seen over this, but thanks anyway. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 906 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: I have. That is how I know to stay away from your religion. PS. I know your religion has discredited all sources that disagree with them. Therefore, your religion and your religion alone holds the exclusive light. hehehehehehe. Reminds me of a brother-in-law . . . former (he is dead) bother-in-law. No I did not misspell that one. Like you, he too knew everything. He never attended a day of school, but knew everything worth knowing. (Message edited by the apostolic truth ministries on December 06, 2007) | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
Nowhere in scripture are we told to celebrate his birth.....we are to remember the Lord's death only.....1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2033 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
No where in scripture are we told to wear pants, to drive cars, to get in airplanes, to dispute theology and praxis using computers either. No where in scripture are we told to have altar calls, to preach sermons during worship services...I could go on. However, the Church has celebrated the birth of Christ for well more than 1700 years, and there is nothing to suppose that it is against apostolic tradition to do so. The idea that one does only that which is explicitly commanded in scripture has not been a widely accepted one - though I suppose if you're Amish or Mennonite you might disagree (but then you wouldn't be using a computer). BTW, you might like to do some research as to the concept the Greek word translated "remember" actually denotes. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 959 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.229.6.252 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: May I laught at you continuingly? Have you ever heard of Dragon Speaking software? I don't know the ownership of such programs. But the IBM version of that program was written by Dr. Jack, a Mennonite friend of mine. You may want to check before using a generalization again. Mennonites are divided into three groups. Jack is a new order Mennonite. The difference in Christianity and your religion is the value placed on tradition. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2035 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
T(not)atm, have you ever read the NT? You should try again in the Greek and look for the word "paradosis" and its cognates. I am aware that most Mennonites are no longer as extreme as the Amish, but they once were and some still are. Show me a scripture that shows Christ came to establish "Christianity". BTW, what is your religious affiliation; what group has provided your ministerial credentials; and what school conferred upon you a doctorate? Merry Christmas!! (Message edited by mcmstaff78 on December 14, 2007) | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 966 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.229.6.252 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: Quoting: "Show me a scripture that shows Christ came to establish "Christianity"." End quote. My point exactly. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2037 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Right... "Now I praise you, brothers, because you remember me in all things, and you hold fast the traditions just as I handed down to you." (1Co 11:2) "So then, brothers, stand fast and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our letter." (2Th 2:15) My "religion" is the Apostolic faith, "which was once delivered unto the saints". We have yet to learn just what your religion is. Once again, t(not)atm, feliz navidad!! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 970 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.229.6.252 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: Pray tell which 'traditions' are you hoping to support? Please save us the space for something worth saying, your religion has nothing to do with saints, possible s-ain'ts. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2039 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
You might wish to actually read the thread. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 979 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.229.6.252 |
Actually as I recall I started the thread. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2044 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Surely you don't think that is a coherent response? "Starting" something and reading additions to it are two entirely separately things. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 984 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: I must admit I am guilty. I laughed at you all day yesterday (OK, I included Mr. Arron in some of it). I listened to a chomp from Canada relate the Christmas story. She purported that the innkeeper told Joseph and Mary they had better take the stable quickly before someone else wanted it. No soul wants to spend the night out in this snow, she proclaimed!! OK, I'll bite. Pray tell why were the flocks in a snow covered field? Building snowmen? Snow Angels? ehehhehehehehe Then it got funnier. She invisioned Joseph sitting in the lot boiling water waiting for the birth of his son. That is where I almost fell out of the truck. Sterilation did not come in being until late in the nineteenth century. It did not come into common usage until late in the twentieth century. Her story is nearly as laughable as your claim to Dec. 25. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2046 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Ah, must be nice to get your straw men pre-fabricated for you. While one may allow some weight to the argument that shepherds and their sheep would not be "abiding" in the fields in the winter, I've yet to see any contemporary evidence for this, simply conjecture based on purported modern practice. This fails to take into account that agrauleo may actually refer to a "sheep fold" (see Vine's - "agrauleo "to lodge in a fold in a field" (agros, "a field," aule, "a fold")) and that: (a) It could have been a mild winter. (b) It is not at all certain that sheep were always brought into enclosures during the winter months. (c) While it may be true that during winter months sheep were brought in from the wilderness, Luke tells us the shepherds were near Bethlehem rather than in the wilderness. This indicates, if anything, the nativity was in the winter months. (d) The Mishnah tells us the shepherds around Bethlehem were outside all year and those worthy of the Passover were nearby in the fields at least 30 days before the feast which could be as early as February (one of the coldest, rainiest months of the year). Keep laughing, a merry heart doeth good - and you need all the good you can get!! Feliz Navidad | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1040 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.221.163.26 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: Here is a final (for this season) mystery for you to work out. What did Adam say to his wife on Christmas? Merry Christmas, Eve. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2083 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
 Christ is born! Glorify Him!! | ||
| watchman_2 Senior Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 3755 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
For those with eyes to see, remember that December 25 is a day of celebration for Christ, in the flesh, first dwelt with mankind as he was conceived that day. Merry Christmas! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2084 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
No, He wasn't conceived this day, He was born - watch out for new ageist, Gnostic heresies garbed in pseudo-Christian language. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1047 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 75.200.30.139 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: Actually, he was not born this day. You have a major problem proving that given the fact the calender has changed at least three times in recent years. It is like the Adventist proving Saturday is the sabbath. Good luck!! Oh and pack your lunch. Oh, yeah! Santa Claus told me to bury the hatchet with you . . . so please bend down so I can see your bald spot. Don't worry I sharpen the hatchet. hehehehehehhe | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1809 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.36.166.186 |
I like, and just about have all the Christmas Carol movies. RANDOM? The Christmas Carol from 1930's The Christmas Carol from 1950's - One of the best Scrooges. Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol George C. Scott's Christmas Carol Albert Finney's Christmas Carol The Muppet's Christmas Carol Mickey Mouse Christmas Carol Henry Winkler's An American Christmas Carol Patrick Stewart's Christmas Carol We love to take out all our movies, Jesus of Nazareth, White Christmas, It's a Wonderful Life and watch them around Christmas. It's a wonderful time of the year! Merry Christmas All! | ||
| watchman_2 Senior Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 3758 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
mcm,
It is obvious that you haven't researched the topic. If you had, you wouldn't be making such idiotic and foolish statements. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1023 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Eastline, On a lighter note, I think that George C. Scott's movie is the best one ever made. It is the most dramatic, and I feel it is the closest to the literature in terms of representation. Mickey's is also good.  (I enjoy older Christmas movies) Happy Chrismahanakwanzaka Al (Message edited by bear on December 25, 2007) | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1814 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 75.36.165.180 |
Al, My mom was saying this morning that she also thinks that George C. Scott's movie is the best, and Mickey's is good for the kids. I also think that Scott's movie overall is the best. I hope you are having a great day, & everybody else also. Erich | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2085 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
The Nativity of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, was born of the Most Holy Virgin Mary in the city of Bethlehem during the reign of the emperor Augustus (Octavian). Caesar Augustus decreed that a universal census be made throughout his Empire, which then also included Palestinian Israel. The Jews were accustomed to be counted in the city from where their family came. The Most Holy Virgin and the Righteous Joseph, since they were descended from the house and lineage of King David, had to go to Bethlehem to be counted and taxed. In Bethlehem they found no room at any of the city's inns. Thus, the God-Man, the Savior of the world, was born in a cave that was used as a stable. "I behold a strange and most glorious mystery," the Church sings with awe, "Heaven, a Cave; the Virgin the Throne of the Cherubim; the Manger a room, in which Christ, the God Whom nothing can contain is laid." (Irmos of the 9th Ode of the Nativity Canon). Having given birth to the divine Infant without travail, the Most Holy Virgin "wrapped Him in swaddling clothes, and laid Him in a manger" (Luke 2:7). In the stillness of midnight (Wisdom of Solomon 18:14-15), the proclamation of the birth of the Savior of the world was heard by three shepherds watching their flocks by night. An angel of the Lord (St Cyprian says this was Gabriel) came before them and said: "Fear not: for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:10-11). The humble shepherds were the first to offer worship to Him Who condescended to assume the form of a humble servant for the salvation of mankind. Besides the glad tidings to the Bethlehem shepherds, the Nativity of Christ was revealed to the Magi by a wondrous star. St John Chrysostom and St Theophylactus, commenting on St Matthew's Gospel, say that this was no ordinary star. Rather, it was "a divine and angelic power that appeared in the form of a star." St Demetrius of Rostov says it was a "manifestation of divine energy" (Narrative of the Adoration of the Magi). Entering the house where the Infant lay, the Magi "fell down, and worshipped Him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented Him gifts: gold, and frankincense, and myrrh" (Mt 2:11). The present Feast, commemorating the Nativity in the flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, was established by the Church. Its origin goes back to the time of the Apostles. In the Apostolic Constitutions (Section 3, 13) it says, "Brethren, observe the feastdays; and first of all the Birth of Christ, which you are to celebrate on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month." In another place it also says, "Celebrate the day of the Nativity of Christ, on which unseen grace is given man by the birth of the Word of God from the Virgin Mary for the salvation of the world." In the second century St Clement of Alexandria also indicates that the day of the Nativity of Christ is December 25. In the third century St Hippolytus of Rome mentions the Feast of the Nativity of Christ, and appoints the Gospel readings for this day from the opening chapters of St Matthew. (Continued...) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2086 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
In 302, during the persecution of Christians by Maximian, 20,000 Christians of Nicomedia (December 28) were burned in church on the very Feast of the Nativity of Christ. In that same century, after the persecution when the Church had received freedom of religion and had become the official religion in the Roman Empire, we find the Feast of the Nativity of Christ observed throughout the entire Church. There is evidence of this in the works of St Ephraim the Syrian, St Basil the Great, St Gregory the Theologian, St Gregory of Nyssa, St Ambrose of Milan, St John Chrysostom and other Fathers of the Church of the fourth century. St John Chrysostom, in a sermon which he gave in the year 385, points out that the Feast of the Nativity of Christ is ancient, and indeed very ancient. In this same century, at the Cave of Bethlehem, made famous by the Birth of Jesus Christ, the empress St Helen built a church, which her mighty son Constantine adorned after her death. In the Codex of the emperor Theodosius from 438, and of the emperor Justinian in 535, the universal celebration of the day of the Nativity of Christ was decreed by law. Thus, Nicephorus Callistus, a writer of the fourteenth century, says in his History that in the sixth century, the emperor Justinian established the celebration of the Nativity of Christ throughout all the world. Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople in the fifth century, Sophronius and Andrew of Jerusalem in the seventh, Sts John of Damascus, Cosmas of Maium and Patriarch Germanus of Constantinople in the eighth, the Nun Cassiane in the ninth, and others whose names are unknown, wrote many sacred hymns for the Feast of the Nativity of Christ, which are still sung by the Church on this radiant festival. During the first three centuries, in the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Cyprus, the Nativity of Christ was combined together with the Feast of His Baptism on January 6, and called "Theophany" ("Manifestation of God"). This was because of a belief that Christ was baptized on anniversary of His birth, which may be inferred from St John Chrysostom's sermon on the Nativity of Christ: "it is not the day on which Christ was born which is called Theophany, but rather that day on which He was baptized." In support of such a view, it is possible to cite the words of the Evangelist Luke who says that "Jesus began to be about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23) when He was baptized. The joint celebration of the Nativity of Christ and His Theophany continued to the end of the fourth century in certain Eastern Churches, and until the fifth or sixth century in others. The present order of services preserves the memory of the ancient joint celebration of the Feasts of the Nativity of Christ and Theophany. On the eve of both Feasts, there is a similar tradition that one should fast until the stars appear. The order of divine services on the eve of both feastdays and the feastdays themselves is the same. (Continued...) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2087 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
The Nativity of Christ has long been counted as one of the Twelve Great Feasts. It is one of the greatest, most joyful and wondrous events in the history of the world. The angel said to the shepherds, "Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, Who is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you: you shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. Then suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly hosts, glorifying God and saying: Glory to God in the Highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." Those who heard these things were astonished at what the shepherds told them concerning the Child. And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had heard and seen" (Luke 2:10-20). Thus the Nativity of Christ, a most profound and extraordinary event, was accompanied by the wondrous tidings proclaimed to the shepherds and to the Magi. This is a cause of universal rejoicing for all mankind, "for the Savior is Born!" Concurring with the witness of the Gospel, the Fathers of the Church, in their God-inspired writings, describe the Feast of the Nativity of Christ as most profound, and joyous, serving as the basis and foundation for all the other Feasts. Christ is Born! Glorify Him! | ||
| watchman_2 Senior Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 3764 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
By using the conception of John the Baptist, the date of December 25 can be established for the CONCEPTION of our Lord Jesus Christ. Understanding the Course of Abia is the key. For those with eyes to see, please refer to Appendix 179 of the Companion Bible. Here is the link - http://www.biblestudysite.com/cbapend.htm | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1817 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 76.204.192.201 |
Watchman, Very interesting. Not even anti-Apostolic Church, just a presentation of their ideas... "The 15th of Ethanim (or Tisri) was the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles. The Circumcision therefore took place on the eighth day of the Feast = 22nd Ethanim = October 6-7 (Leviticus 23:33-43). So that these two momentous events fall into their proper place and order, and the real reason is made clear why the 25th of December is associated with our Lord, and was set apart by the Apostolic Church to commemorate the stupendous event of the "Word becoming flesh" - and not, as we have for so long been led to suppose, the commemoration of a pagan festival." |
