| Author | Message | ||
     maranatha1984 Senior Member Username: maranatha1984 Post Number: 1184 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 24.129.172.2 |
and thats for sure | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1491 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.162.98.230 |
And you wonder why?} | ||
| pilgrim Advanced Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 661 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.42 |
Tikie and Copertree, I think that it is all my fault I asked too many questions about the legal system of Florida and Texas. In the following link. http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/40447.html?1195750136 I think that from now on I will leave Florida and Texas alone. (Message edited by pilgrim on November 25, 2007) | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1492 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.162.98.230 |
Hi Pilgrim, I don't think that is why.} | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1550 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
Hi copper! LTNS. Been really busy here, so I guess I missed something about the end of the MSI/EN thing on Factnet. Good times here at times, but sometimes it was just stressful, and I'll take responsibility for my part in that. Anyway, I hope things are going well for you. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3058 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.70.215 |
#1.) It's always slow here during the Thanksgiving holidays for one thing. #2.) After years of posting at FactNet there is not the same priority to post or fear of missing something new. Also a thing called Healing, may have taken place in some of the more prolific posters or maybe burning questions were already answered? #3.) Boards usually thrive on controversy and disagreements but eventually those things are settled or some decide to move on. #4.) There may be a realization that many of us don't have that much in common. Ex-members of this thing are not as united as they may have thought on things concerning life, politics, viewpoints, philosophy, board functions, religion, theology....etc. I mean building something on a negative like Phil is abusive (even though that is true) is a tough thing to do over the long hall. #5.) The devils advocate alternative #1 ? EN prayer warriors have finally gotten off their butts and broken the powers and principalities running this thing.  #6.) Some may have given up on the idea of reform for EN in general and view the idea of real reform at the top as being a pipe dream. I mean how long do you take people seriously who say were changing? I heard that over 20 years a go. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4314 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
I think you are pretty perceptive 40. You summed things up pretty good. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3059 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.193.202.72 |
Thanks Hatter I forgot #7. I am to busy trying to save my computer to yell at ya all. They went Wildwooding on my computer. Yeah and I know about the popular free stuff out there xman and I had it once upon a time but it stopped working. I am glad you did not give me suggestions to fix this thing because I found my own popular ones and it was almost catastrophic. Like lighting gasoline on ants in your house to get rid of them. I am here but I almost bought a new son of a Bob computer. I may go Apple next time J-2. | ||
| pilgrim Advanced Member Username: pilgrim Post Number: 662 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 195.93.21.42 |
40days40years, You wrote, "maybe burning questions were already answered?" I found the answer to most of my questions about Maranatha on this board. Everyone of you had help me to understand why I was so hurt in Maranatha. Also it helps to understand that I was not just an isolated case. It helps to understand that other people all over the world got hurt as well by that cult. Coppertree, Thank you for your message. It makes me feel great to understand that my questions where not responsible for putting people off from posting. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2157 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.45 |
Here is my take , EN/VCF has been doing everything they can to keep their illegal activities quiet. Yet, a friend had a dream about this thing, even they tried to wash whatever they can, something will still fall and be exposed. Now thats whats I am waiting for. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3062 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.162.93 |
lablady2, don't feel guilt it's a message board. Conflict and disagreements rule in cyberland. Different philosophies are different philosophies but the new Cuckoo board is your baby to. You helped create it, post there or wherever you want to. You helped to create the new Cuckoo board so you GO girl but try to reconvert! Jesus is Jewish you know and sheoul or however you spell it was mentioned in the OT to. God bless! | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3063 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.162.93 |
Anyway they would really love for you to goof off there with the Cuckoo craaazies but you left. I had a part in that, sorry. (Message edited by 40days40years on November 27, 2007) | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3064 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.162.93 |
Jesus is not a philosophy I repent! - see it goes on. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3065 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.162.93 |
Hey Tik I agree with copper, when will you warm these stones? | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1430 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
groups that are structured on a wrong ideas and premisses about authority and submission always have a lot of things in "the hidden"! its part of their leadership philosophy. "let them only know what we think that they have to know, but not more"... and of course their authority request is so totally absurd and not "down on eartH" (remember they believe that they are apostles who have a deeper knowlegte of Christ) that they cannot fullfill the expectations people have in them (no one can, because no one is perfect, but Jesus alone). thats another reason that they have to hide things that dont go well. thats also a reason that sometimes leaders who base their authority not on a biblical template of leadership but rather on mystical ideas, do things that are not always 100% legal or if they are legal then perhaps not always moral. (i have wittnesed massive cases of abuse of labour laws - all in the name if "the church") no wonder that then and there things pop up... | ||
| philiprosenthal Senior Member Username: philiprosenthal Post Number: 1075 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
40years writes: "Some may have given up on the idea of reform for EN in general and view the idea of real reform at the top as being a pipe dream. " Sorry, no, quite the opposite. There are two reasons why I have been posting less in the last few months. Firstly, I have gotten married and am crazily in love with my new wife. "DT 24:5 If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married." So I am obeying the scripture. Secondly, very positive news is that I am finding there is now considerable support for reform and repentance within the EveryNation leadership. The reason why I started posting on the web was because people had not been listening to me offline. It was a last resort option after all else failed. Now that reform is in process (although lots more change needed), there is now much less reason to post on the web. I think the whole issue of reform and repentance may be happening differently in different parts of the world, but at least in South Africa, I am cautiously optimistic about the direction things are moving and the progress being made. If anyone else wants to participate in the reform and repentance process, you are welcome to email me philip@rosenthal.net So let us praise and thank God for what he is doing and pray for him to do more. I hope to give you more detail in future. God bless Philip Rosenthal | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 828 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
Phil, If it was a reform, RESTORE and repentance process I might be interested. Any luck getting them to do something constructive with the millions of dollars collected as "gifts to God" that have been spent on their own personal property? Any way they are going to open their books from late 90s forward so a restoration process can be started? | ||
| philiprosenthal Senior Member Username: philiprosenthal Post Number: 1076 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 196.25.255.250 |
Dear LC20. George Otis was challenged regards his transformation videos that the cities he cited as undergoing transformation still had lots of problems. His answer was that they must be compared not with perfection, but with what they were like before the process started. John Piper makes the same point with regard to how pastors get depressed with how their parishoners may still be struggling with sins despite much counselling - compare what they were like before the counselling - not with perfection - else you will get discouraged. I argue the same in this instance - look at the direction things are moving rather than compare with the standard of perfection. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2159 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.213.45 |
Phillip, good for you that its happening in South Africa , unfortunately thats not happening here in the USA nor the Philippines where the Top leaders offices are located. I am still receiving reports that nothing has changed , the finances are still kept secrets in the philippines, Spiritual abuses, control are still widely practice in the Philippines and the USA among top leaders. The only report from EN/VCF are sending out is that they are planting churches, removing one pastor to another sending them from one church to another. Like they always do. SO nothing has changed on our end. There is no repentance nor change here. I think Africa should break away from EN since they are in the process of change. EN/VCF still used deception that they are changing and yet cannot name one what they have actually change except shuffling of leadership. And I agree with LC20. First step is to open the books which Steve M refused to and is deliberately avoiding. His answer is always " I don't recall". I was told he also refused to see anyone and talk about these thing with people who are questioning him. He also has a prophet on the side, a loud mouth woman, once on the meeting, anybody who confront Steve M, this woman would start prophesying that God have given an unction to Steve M. Shutting people up. As I said, its good that there is change on that side . But not over here. (Message edited by Ginger1 on November 30, 2007) | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1493 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.135.80.111 |
Hi Phil, Congratulations on your wedding !!!!! I am hopeful for your church, however compromise to 'as it was' can be a slippery slope. The Word should be our only standard, we can't love the work more than the Word. } | ||
| philiprosenthal Senior Member Username: philiprosenthal Post Number: 1077 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 198.54.202.250 |
Coppertree. I don't debate that the word should be the only standard, but that is not the point I am making here. The question we are measuring is change. Is the current direction of change bringing the organisation closer to the unchanging word or further away from it? That question affects our positive hopes for long term reform. My impression is that there is a significant move in a positive direction and we should than God for that. Doesn't move all troubles are over, but I believe reform is happening. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 831 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
Phil, So, if someone kills 5 people in a year but in the previous year they killed 10, do we say "Good job, you are improving?" | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1431 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
i agree with lc_20 i mean look: 3 guys who where converted and discipled in a cult foundet - 4 years after the cult broke - a new organisation. 2 of the 3 guys have or at least had (until 2006) serious issues with greed (remember their salaries) and with abuse. they - until today - dont think this was bad, because their justification (for themselves) comes from a combination of heretical and unbiblical ideas (sheperding, submission and authority, etcetc...). they deceived many churches and organisations into their movement (where they set the rules and called themselves "apostles" and "apostolic fathers/ leadership") through - false prophecies (ie Laffoons prophecy of lies about HisPeople [the net, the knots, the call for the old nations...]...) - lies about their past or present - false promises based on heresies (protection, covering, "spiritual family", revivalism, "discipleship" [which in fact is an abusive perversion of mentoring]...) then they cut of the head of the churches and movements, by replacing pastors who - in some cases - have led the churches already since 10 or 15 or 20 years with friends if themselves. they have used money and other resources for things, that no one can track anymore. there is still no transparency, no repentance, no replacement of the wrong people. there is still a culture of false submission, false loyalities, mystical manipulation, abuse and controle. leaders are still lying to their churches about certain issues. the whole thing STINKS! a church must CHALLENGE leaders who abuse, who lie and who have money issues. But thats not happening in EveryNation, no. The EN culture encourages people with these habbits, because its focused not on character but on charisma: who looks good. who preaches good. there is no reform going on. at least not here in Europe nor in America. I dont know whats going on on the Philipines. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2160 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.139 |
Robert , all the problem that occured in USA, The misuse of funds, hiding the money for building funds and mission etc. Removing pastors from pulpit, all of that are still occuring in VCF. What most people does not know the removing of pastors from the pulpit actually started by Steve M. This is his regular practice in the philippines. Phil Bonasso and Rice Brookes copied it from him. At least Rice Brookes and Phil Bonasso does not wrestle money from all these churches for building funds . They do that with Mission funds. In the phillpines , even the building fund is part of the requirement, it does not matter if the church is located in the Provincial area. At first, the top leaders pressure the senior pastors to raise money from the pulpit, then the pressure was drop, because it does not work. Then it was passed on to the CELL LEADERS. So now the cell leaders can pressure, manipulate or whatever it takes to wrestle money out of the members ONE BY ONE. Two things that came up VCF have raised money for a building next to the Fort. This is next to Steve M office building, money was raised, building is not built till this day and it has been 3 years already. They also raised money for school till this day there is no school. it is also has been 3 years. When they were asked what happened, nobody wants to answer. They refused to open the books. Two brochures was also given to church members for the building and the school. People still have those brochures. There was another issue also that money was raised for a specific mission in Turkey but nothing happened. I don't know now if that mission ever occurred though now , thats harder to prove. But definitely those two building still does not exist. And these people got the brochure for it. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 781 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.247.154.189 |
Congratulations on your marriage Phil. That is awesome!!! I agree with you about EN. I am generally in the minority in saying so, but I see a lot of change and if I don't compare it to a standard of perfection, I see progress. If I thought I could help in some way to facillitate things, I for one would contact you and do what I could, but I'm just an ex-member who has been shafted one too many times, and of too insignificant of a "level" for these guys to listen to or consider what I say. You seem to have secured an inside track in helping here, and I am with you on that and hope for the best in the end. I can't take lightly the ongoing stuff of course, but lots has indeed changed since even I started posting, so time will tell. Keep up the good work. God bless you and your wife. Nobody's right here all the time, but I for one continue to admire the way you've approached the whole thing and respect your approach. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1432 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
ginger, this reminds me what happened to me in Italy some years ago. Ron Lewis was with us, and i stayed in contact for a short while with him. one day i asked him if he could help me (by giving me advice) to start a financial support system for our church in Italy. He said, that its not allowed to raise support from my friends and family in my homechurch (in Innsbriuck). I asked how i can start then and tHE pathetic answer i got in a short email was "God is Your source"... (well thats a deep spiritual advice, isnt it... LOL) only 2 weeks later a package from Ron Lewis came to my house. he was so kind to send me some motivational books and booklets ("Positive thinking" and another one) and a videotape and brochure about their church building that they have planned for his church in the USA (KPIC)... the same man, who told me some months ago, that i am not allowed to ask people in my homechurch for missionsupport (thats actually something people with MPD do) and the same man who told me that "God is Your source" was begging money from ME for HIS church building... i can tell you guys: i was disgusted to say the least. This experience was another eye-opener about the hypocrathy and the egoism and mercilessness in this "ministry". Unfortunatelly it took me still some more years to leave this abusive group. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 833 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 205.188.117.202 |
Robert, In my opionion, that is very typical R. Lewis. He complains about his finances all the time to people and is always dropping hints about his personal needs even though he is doing quite well financially. Poor me.. do you know anyone who knows how to do this task I need done? How will I ever pay for xxxx. He gets quite a bit of unreported income and service by doing this AND THEN THANKS GOD FOR THE BLESSING he conned from someone! This is only an example of the standards that he can preach but can't live up to. I know many people who got out after figuring this out. Many of us saw red flags for years before really seeing the deciption and leaving. So, don't feel bad about that. You are in good company. Your only mistake was trusting someone who called himself pastor. The rest is on him. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1433 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
lc, interesting thing! a guy who was pastoring here in Austria before had the similar behaviour: "Oh - i have forgotten my wallet, but i need to buy a present to my wife. can someone of you borrow me something?" or "Oh, i dont have a coin, can someone pay my coffee"... or "i am travelling so much, and this BMW is much more comfortable than my car, dont you guys think the church could afford to by this car for the ministry"... always presenting his personal needs to people (specially the ones with the big wallets, like business people) in a "innocent" way... Interestingly people like this justify their ministry and their position with Old Testament/ covenential scriptures. They want to erect a sort of clergy/ priesthood that grants them certain priviledges. But they forget to know and to keep the OT law, the Ten Commandements: Exodus 20,1-17 (The Ten Comandements)
| ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1435 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
LC_20 NOW i understand WHY he gave me this strange answer. I mean i asked him only to tell me how i can raise support for the church. but - obviously - he UNDERSTOOD (wrongly) - based on his own behaviour - that i wanted HIM to give me some financial support (which i did not, honestly i just needed advice)... LOL - so he understood what i said, by the words and the behaviour he used to say/ have when he wanted something! i mean, he could have written "Rob, i cannot help you, or give you any advice, yet" or he could tell me some hints about where/ how to start raising support (ie "make a broshure" or "contact leaders in your region") ... hahaha... now after all these years i understand the reaction... i was always wondering about his STRANGE reaction! | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1436 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
haha... still laughing about this all... i mean he told me "Gods your source"... but Gods obviously not his source, if he needs to make childish games with people, so that they pay for him... or does he really think God blesses him, when he askes other people (with questionable rethorical tricks), but God doesnt bless me, when i try (in his eyes) the same thing on him? lol - thats so amusing! thanks lc_20, you saved my day ;) | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 834 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
haha... you have me laughing now. It is good to laugh about this.. part of the healing. So "God is your source" seems to mean "Bug off - I am not sharing" in EN language. I am glad to help with the eye-opening process. God bless. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1437 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
So "God is your source" seems to mean "Bug off - I am not sharing" in EN language. well- at least in the RL language, whereveer "RL´s Wonderland" might be... hahaha | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2161 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.52.254.139 |
Robert those practice is a NORMAL and COMMON among VCF pastors. They still practice it till this day. They are more aggresive now a days, this time, they asked for specific things. Like brand name Phone, shoes, shirts etc. Talk about nerve of steel, they do got it. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3066 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.243.252 |
Hmmmm, interesting take on this Robert. You and lc_20 know Ronnie and I don't but my first impression reading about Ron's response is......He wanted you to raise support outside the Innsbruck church because he is a pastor himself. He does not want people raising support for missions in his own church because that means less cash for him, he commiserates with other EN pastors in this regard. He certainly did not want to be blamed by Innsbruck pastors for giving Robert advice that diverted support away from Innsbruck leadership, especially after he most likely met with these guys. Ron Lewis does not want these guys calling EN leadership and saying what is up with Ronnie, he gave Roberto advice that is draining money away from our ministry. | ||
| 40days40years Senior Member Username: 40days40years Post Number: 3067 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 172.192.243.252 |
Philip congratulations, you did give me a laugh with this: Firstly, I have gotten married and am crazily in love with my new wife. "DT 24:5 If a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married." So I am obeying the scripture. Your putting dealing with us in the same category as war and onerous duty. I go back and forth between believing in reform and thinking it's a joke. There have always been pockets of very good and very bad in this thing. At the end of the day, the old dogs will want to have it their way. If reform is under way Philip, it was not nice talk that did it. It was people raising a stink on the net and people leaving that did it. I am more skeptical now then when I started, like Ulyankee said they can always point to the more well adjusted churches and say: see look, they seem pretty normal and well adjusted. Perhaps reform may be coming because upper leaderships kids are getting older and they realize they promoted a heap of garbage that they don't want their own children to inherit ? Just a thought. Do you think their kids are going to be asked to babysit for free, give up their careers or degrees, move furniture, be hand maidens or have their marriage desires delayed, jacked around or put on hold by leadership? You better believe they won't allow that. Hey Phil B. you worm, are your kids going to be allowed to be treated the way you treated kids in So-Cal and tossed them out for ridiculous reasons?. No they won't, Hey Ronnie, Hey Rice....etc. You get the picture. Ginger, removing pastors or moving in on some turf you like has always been part of Maranatha. Leadership decisions have the power of God behind them and you have to obey them unless they tell you to do something obviously sinful like rob a bank, otherwise they get a Word from the Lord and you have to obey. Like Tik said the thing is to be successful but not be to successful or they may covet your church or whatever and then bye, bye, sabbatical time. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1438 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
yeah, 40, EN LOVES to do missions... as long as it doesnt cost them anything. in reality its even worse. they let their missionaires do MPD and then they take percentages from their support. i have never in my live seen something weird like this: that missionaires have to pay fees to the movement for the support that they raise themselves... thats weirdo!  the only good example i had, was HisPeople ijn Capetown. they supported us for some months with our work. But HP Capetown was something speciall at that point of time,... its difficult for me to understand that they still are affiliated with EN. | ||
| lablady2 Senior Member Username: lablady2 Post Number: 1551 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 12.219.171.224 |
I am soooooooo glad that Phillip has gotten married  . Iron sharpeneth iron, so let the games begin! In all seriousness, congrats, Phil! I wish you and your wife all the best. | ||
| lc_20 Advanced Member Username: lc_20 Post Number: 836 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 64.12.117.202 |
From whom do the kings of the earth collect customs or poll-tax, from their sons or from strangers? Is anyone paying attention to see if RLs son is paying his 18% to EN? | ||
| dazzla Member Username: dazzla Post Number: 57 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 199.40.204.246 |
Ginger, The mission in Turkey is still there. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 793 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.14.46.22 |
n reality its even worse. they let their missionaires do MPD and then they take percentages from their support. i have never in my live seen something weird like this: that missionaires have to pay fees to the movement for the support that they raise themselves... thats weirdo! You know Robert, that is the ONLY reason I did not raise support and go full time into what was called "ministry". I have fundamental problems with their whole support raising system. It's like the guy who got his debt forgiven and then beat the slave and imprisoned him because he was beholden to. They enjoy their own tax free status, and then tax their employees. Made no sense, amomg other things. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1495 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.164.204.102 |
Hi All, I am thinking that the hearings now going in the Senate may catch many in their nets. They are closely looking at modern ministries who spend lavishly to them selves on their life styles. The Senate is considering their tax status, which would make them file about their monies. This should be very interesting.} | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1442 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
well said xman. you know, when we entered EN, everything was gentle and soft. But in 2002 and 2003, thats when i left the ministry, they wanted us (among other pastors from the region) to go to the USA to make a ministry school. all on our personal expenses (i was nearly bankrupt at this point of time - they knew it, and couldnt help, but still wanted us to attend the school). they granted lower prices though,... But the point with the tax free status is a good one. i was also thinking a lot about it: they operate with the tax free status and benefit from it, but when it comes to their salaries, they justify it with corporate salaries (ie: a manager of a company the size of my church earns this and that)... or - like you mentioned - they charge churches, ministers, missionaires and members of fees for every thing (ie conferences [beside taking offerings], seminaries [like delivery seminaries)... etc) so they use the corporate justification when it comes to THEIR needs, and they come with the tax-free or voluntary justification when it comes to the benefits from the state or the exploitation of members (you know: the guys who work for free in the church) | ||
| jayhernandez Advanced Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 509 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.198.236.236 |
coppertree and robert would say more about what you know about this. I don't know what to think about this, but I wonder what the long term affects would be. It seems it would mean tough roads ahead. Would it mean the gov gets a piece of the pie, or would they simply limit the purse, or would they tax donations. Would this mean all religions are taxed or monitored to be taxed too? (Taxing all religions would not make this idea any more fair, but it would make it appear necessary.) I'm only wondering how they could possibly approach and answer all these questions without "the Church" not feeling the need to say anything about it. It seems the church might try to say something but it could possibly not prevent things. But what the law have to say about it. What does our constitution and so on say about it. There would be many questions that would have to be sorted out. But the church would have some of their own. It seems that if "our Christian churches" where in anyway to become the concern of paying taxes due to lavish lifestyles, however wrong that is, then it could be a bad thing. Christianity is already seeing punishment for this now. Look up Doctor Kent Hovind- he is Christian Evangelist who is now in prison. He was supposedly "convicted" of not paying employee taxes (which is still being fought). According to how one interprets the law it appears that he should be a free man. There was a time in Christianity that if a person ended up in prison it was sad thing. It meant they were preaching or ministering. It also meant that they were stirring up society- in a society that wasn't very friendly to Christians. But today a person like Dr. Hovind is shrugged off as probably deserving it. We say America is Christian friendly, but we're also seeing how some would like to see it go- depending on who is in charge. How far would the gov go if they were to take this seriously. If its already Senate discussion then it seems pretty serious already. I'm seeing that if the government subjects the church to this that some Christians will gladly welcome it because they see churches who have big pockets. But generations from now- time warp into the future- then I'm seeing another Martin Luther Reformer breaking ranks starting another reform years down the road. It will be a child of one from within this group that embraced "Rome" and welcomed the government to supposedly "intervene" because of abuse. It seems that if the government gets involved it won't be because of money abuse, but some Christians might eventually begin to see it this way. Another reform years from now would seem inevitable and quite unavoidable if America- my beloved country- would become Rome. Anyone chime in please cause this 'Senate Interest' doesn't seem right from the outlook. I can see how some of these churches are abusive with money and it seems that if they are abusive with money that they are most likely abusive in other areas. Most of you here knows exactly what I mean- you've seen it! But this aside, how do you see Christianity being redirected and affected. Wouldn't it look like it was being punished? Like it was on time out? Like a spanking? How would the religious world view it? Wouldn't it feed the fears of religious zealots who already think America does these sorts of things to their country? I don't believe we do this in other countries, but doing this in our country would nevertheless be perceived as such. If this is taken seriously, to the extant that churches began to speak out against our government that wants some sort of special tax, then other countries will certainly seem to appear justified in calling America what it might. Someone please help me understand the ramifications if there are some... thanks, J | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1496 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.135.46.61 |
Hi J, Anyone with half a wit, could see excess, and yet they pay no taxes on their tremendous industry of charing for special healing seminars, prayer clothes, special water , need the for private jets, huge books sale profits etc. This is what the hearings are about. Truthful, Godly ministries will suffer along with the excess, if things proceed.} | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1443 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
good point jay... but my question is, and i mean it serious: "how much money does a church need" or better "how much does the gospel cost"? i have heared over and over again, that its sooo expensive to bring the gospel to the world. and on the other hand i have seen so much beriching in the name of the gospel. its a moral issue. i believe if the church or lets say, some parts of the church, would show more responsability with financial matters, the gouvernement would not try to step in. the gouvernement seems to think, that there is a huge money-generating market called "the church" operating. they see the $$$ that are beeing dedicated to televengalists, and they calculate the huge income of taxes that possibly can result out of a taxation. if i see copeland, hinn, cerullo and if i remember the salaries some high ranked EN leaders granted themselves only s short time ago, i understand, that some people in gouvernement want to make a big cut for the financial departement out of all this. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1444 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
many of them where justifying their income with a comparison to the corporate world. now the state wants to tax them like the corporate world? shouldnt wonder them. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 797 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.202.90 |
how do you see Christianity being redirected and affected. I don't see this as a move towards more government control on churches. I see this, personally I might add, as one tool God is using to expose a big problem in teaching and practice concerning money that the church is unable to clean up. These ministries have vast influence, and those influenced are influenced by the inherrent defense of their practices built into the message. Dealing with money is very important to God, and I think He's cleaning up His house a bit becuase He's not ignorant of the influence these folks have, and they will come to adjust their teachings and practices or lose influence. I'm looking for a better church with a greater amount of respect from the secular world coming out of this, one way or the other. It could certainly affect how the rest of the world views U.S. churches and ministers, and how the government deals with churches in general, but I feel the constitutional protections for churches are strong and overall, not easy to circumvent. In an interesting twist, the very fact they have all this money is what helps them have worldwide influence, so the implications on how we(U.S. church) affect things are many depending on how some of this shakes out. I mean, what does a family do if they give away their last chicken and don't get a hundred chickens back, but get no chicken? This message is just unrelatable to a lot of people, and laden with problems and disagreements with much of the church. I say, start with nothing, move to africa, preach the same message to villages of poor people, and see how long it takes to get a mansion, cars, jets, clothes, etc... Don't gravitate to the rich cities though as is habit. Let the money come to you. It'll be a cold day in hell before .... This message does not warrent the influence they have, and I'm thinking God is dealing with it because it's a big problem in the church as a whole and individuals. It has caused me to begin seriously considering my own financial faithfulness I might add. Keeping in section, I think EN's finaces continue to need a closer examination and it is one of the major areas I was disappointed with them about. | ||
| philiprosenthal Senior Member Username: philiprosenthal Post Number: 1078 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 196.25.255.250 |
xman3 Please do contact me philip@rosenthal.net or +27826768966 or +27216854500. I would appreciate some help with what I am doing. I believe in non-elitist reform. i.e. I believe everyone who is genuinely concerned to help should be allowed to input. If I was to become part of a new 'reform elite', then I think that would just be corrupting the whole reform process and perpetuating the problems we have been having. One thing nobody can be excluded from is praying - and I believe this won't succeed without a lot of prayer. I have been coming up against lots of spiritual opposition and would appreciate all of your prayers in support of this work. I believe if everyone would just pray one prayer everytime they post on FactNet, EveryNation-His People would be in a much healthier state. 40days, I don't compare communicating with you as onerous 'war' service, but a lot of the other fighting I have had to do, I would put in that category. God bless Philip | ||
| jayhernandez Advanced Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 512 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.198.236.236 |
Hello Philip, I was wondering how you see it. What do you think about the questions I asked of how the church would be directed and affected if the gov- Senate and so on- gets involved with church spending. Understand when I hear 'lavish church spending' my mind doesn't automatically go to EN. In fact I don't think everyones here does either. In context- here at factnet- EN does become part of the conversation though. It seems quite understandable given that some here have spent many years in EN and were close enough to see it first hand. Others may not have been that close, and rather they come to speak of doctrine and conduct and the such. The two need to be understood separately for to say that everyone is here is because of EN Money would be a wrong statement. The reason I ask you, and not to put you on the spot, is cause you speak of reform quite often. I understand reform is necessary, even most people in the days of Martin Luther did as well, they just didn't know how to do it- but it seems it was the people who sought it out, and this enabled Martin Luther to succeed. It was a big mess and many people died. The people (not only here at factnet) would somehow have to get on board. The people here at factnet could very well be that voice the Catholic Church church heard on the streets. I only say it could be. Who are and were are those in EN that want it, or do they? I do not believe it would require the whole church to speak out, but only a few. Those already out that could provide the necessary information (education) of the churches history would somehow become part of the writing force that explains what needs to be explained. To some extent I believe that is what some people here are actually doing, whether they see themselves as doing it or not is another question. I don't think anyone here thinks before hand of the title of "the great reformer" when they post here. Martin Luther may have been of strong opinion, but the church needed change. He had his doubts, and when the split took place he had more doubts. He was a common man- like any of us are. Having fame through breaking a church apart is hardly like fame in Hollywood. The Catholic church was a wreck and they weren't ready to do a self critique. This came from Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, and others like John Hus. John Hus was killed for proposing a hundred years earlier what Martin L did. Wycliffe supported the right of Gov to intervene in the church to seize the corrupt clergy's property. So I know that if you are speaking reform that you are definitely going through hard times- opposition- and you can't, or don't have to try to do it alone. There is another obvious fact that should not be ignored as well. The church did not reform- it broke apart. I don't think Martin Luther and the rest expected that but it later appeared inevitable; and even that was hard for Martin Luther to accept. Would you, or are you willing to accept this could happen? Lets be real about this question- I'm not asking you about the invisible and the unknowable. I'm asking you because this question does not go without having historical reference to consider. There is enough information available to us about what happens when we speak of changing a church. One does not have to go into it blindly. Surely it will be hard to see Church split, especially if you're invested in that particular church. No one could really prepare for the pains that were to come no matter how much history you have at your disposal, but we do have history- well documented- of what happens when the church reforms. | ||
| jayhernandez Advanced Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 513 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.198.236.236 |
I say all this because if you're thinking what I think you are..., then En would better shape up before Senate gets involved! But my question is not only EN, it is all churches. If we consider the effects of Gov intervening (like Wycliffe supported) on the "church" at large, then the real questions that will bring change will surface. I know your not thinking start more bible studies and cell groups. I know your not talking about starting more ministries in churches already overload with them. I know you're not talking about trying to bring the Clergy together to have a little powwow with them. I know your not talking about sending more ministries. I know you are not talking about seeing more people here at factnet speak about what they feel is necessary to speak about. I know your not speaking about seeing new denominations birth. You are talking about prayer! I see that as good. The larger picture is not that EN reforms though- this was never Martins intentions- he wanted change- there is a difference. You want change? Or do you want reform? I ask you this with all seriousness. If the hammer comes down on church spending, but have prevented a church from felling the effects of it, then you'll have done good, but you'll have more to deal with later. You may not get involved later. You may only standby to see the mess it makes of the churches around you. What you'll see is that EN was saved from the fire. But you'll also see EN and its family realize it too. If there is an elites mentality at EN- if they have not spiritually understood the connection they have with history and other Christians around the world- then there will be another mess. My point here is that one can not ignore an elitist behavior, attitude, doctrine and clergy (staff). This will need some attention. Martin Luther did not technically bring reform but change. He wasn't able to get through to the clergy (staff). The clergy (staff) must broaden their worldview. If EN were to see, or go back to seeing, how connected they are to the church then this will bring change. If they do not then the type of change you want will not bring reform but change- a split. This is hardly reform. There would then be two sides with different values and beliefs. It might mean that people within EN leave and reassemble some place else, and this might be called reforming, but it also means take at different position of religious matters. What is reforming if there isn't a group of people that have formed? A people that form are those who take a different position. A different position from what? A different position from another group. Why would people reform? Because they either felt they had no form, or because they felt that people within their group had no form. In all, there is position one takes. If you speak of change, then you are also taking a stand. In many ways you are already separating yourself. You would be taking a position- even if your heart was in the right place, and even if your love for your church was never a second thought. Remember that Martin Luther and those before and after him were called Heretics, and some were killed. I am not saying people will be killed over this, but in todays world there will still be a fight. It will be with words and church politics, and it will be strong. So strong you may not see change but a reforming of people that no longer want to be part of EN. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1446 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
Phil, i love you my brother, and you know this! i also do love your compassion for the people within EN. but PLEASE let me say one thing: the state of EN and the state of HisPeople is NOT in the responsability of us people here on FactNet. I believe in prayer, and i prayed hundrets and thousands of hours for HP and EN while i was part of it, and still the leaders did wrong things. and still the movement developed in a wrong direction. please dont put shame and guilt on the people here on FN. the leaders of En have put the responsability for their movement on their shoulders. theay have to check their teachings for heresies. they have to protect the flock from posined water and from the wolves. prayer is good and its needed. but OUR prayers alone will NOT change EN. its the men and women in charge who have the power to change it. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1498 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.130.223.223 |
Hi I agree with Robert, he was a member in leadership in EN. He has travailed much for this group and its mission. Each of us walks alone and will stand alone before the Lord. I think that in this group one can be ok with his walk in this for a time, but as one continues the Holy Spirit begins to speak to their conscience. One then must follow their conscience, speak out,leave whatever It says to them. This group has become a kind of idol in some eyes; there is a time to leave the idol making to walk before Him. This what Moses did. What good do we do if we made more slaves of men and their idols than TRUE followers Of Him who set us free to follow Him,, only.} | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1499 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.130.223.223 |
Jay, Luther killed a lot of people on his own, he wrote about it. This happens when you follow man in a movement.} (Message edited by coppertree on December 07, 2007) | ||
| jayhernandez Advanced Member Username: jayhernandez Post Number: 514 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 64.198.236.236 |
I know! | ||
| philiprosenthal Senior Member Username: philiprosenthal Post Number: 1080 Registered: 3-2006 Posted From: 196.25.255.250 |
Hi Jay Please excuse a short answer to a long question since I am busy with some deadlines. I am aware the US Senate is investigating the finances of certain ministries but I don't really know the detail here and so can't really give a considered opinion. I believe strongly that those who want to live lavish lifestyles should quit turning Christian ministries into businesses and go try make honest big money in the secular business world. This I understand was the idea behind Jesus driving the money changers out of the temple. Nevertheless I am very nervous about government intervention in church affairs, since the history of this is almost all very bad. I think the government should set the playing field to make rules for the accountability of organisations finances and then Christians should hold eachother accountable to the detail. I am nervous about government getting involved in the detail of religious organisations. I believe they should only really get involved in the detail where there is prima facae evidence of crime, fraud, corruption etc - not just because of wastage of funds. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2165 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.219.39 |
Philip, the problem with american churches is that there are far too many "yes man". That none of them are willing to speak up. They are either afraid that they will lose their job or they deliberatly live in denial . Here is one thing I learn, if the church refused to correct their own, God will bring people from the outside to bring correction. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1447 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
i think we must seperate between "the church" as the spiritual entity and between "the church" as legal institution. most churches in the western world cannot operate without a legal body. ie its not possible to rent rooms and houses for a group of people, if they do not have a legal body (ie to sign contracts, etc). of course the state has all right of the world to check if this legal body/ institution keeps the laws of the state. i mean, a group of people can just not think that they have the right to make their own rules and laws for their legal entity/ institution. unfortunately this happenes, when it comes ie to issues of labour rights. i have seen more than once that those laws have been broken by churches. or if it comes to tax laws, etcetc... but the state has NO right to tell people what they have to believe or not to believe. communist nations ie interfere not only into the legal affairs of a church but also into the spiritual and religous affairs, which is not right. but a nation HAS to make sure that the laws are kept in the legal institutions. if churches found legal institutions, than they also have to keep the tax-, labour- and all other laws. if they cannot or dont want to do this, they cannot found a legal body. all to often have there been pastors who seem to think that they can do what they want to do, because they only have to submit to God. unfortunately that seems to be the reason why the modern christian church has no good reputation on the world when it comes to money. | ||
| ginger1 Senior Member Username: ginger1 Post Number: 2166 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 75.36.219.39 |
I do wonder when will a minister felt that their service to the Lord is the REWARD itself. And be satisfied with their salaries. There are well known ministers who have set their salaries, unlike most of the Word of Faith ministers who have no cap on their pays. They felt that the sky is the limit. EN leaders are like that. VCF pastors though some who are well paid are still soliciting from members of people from outside of their churches. I do strongly believe that ministers should be paid well, they should not worry about what they will feed to their families. This should be based on where they are located. Put a cap on their salaries and STAY there. My husband work provide work shoes for him yearly. Its $110 yearly. If my husband decided to get a more expensive shoes than the $110, then we have to pay for it. EN leaders should do the same, put a cap on how much they travel. Let's say $2000 and anything that goes over they have to pocket the cost. Same thing with food and hotel. This will teach them discipline. The lack of discipline of finances that got them in trouble. Phil Bonasso charges his hotel suites in a 5 star hotel to the church, same thing his food when he goes out to eat in a 5 star restaurant. and the sky is the limit. I do recall Phil Bonasso will tell the staff who can stay in the hotel for free during the conference time. That should be done with, when he does that, that should be charge to him not the ministry. I won't be surprised that Rice Brookes and Steve Murrell does the same thing or even Jim lafoon. I do recall a friend told me that even when one of the EN pastor takes his family out to eat, he brings the receipt to the church and wants to charge it to the church. The person who handles the finances told this EN pastor no. He can't do that, but does these EN pastor care ? NO. He wants to be repaid. And put that as tax deductible. The years of lack of integrity and character make this pastor lost the flock in his church. Now he can't even afford to go out to eat nor pay his bills. And who does he blame ? Its us . Because we exposed them. Instead of blaming themselves of their own self centeredness and sin. | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1451 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
During the conferences here in Austria they always booked suites in sheraton and similar hotels. i dont know who payed for it, but surely not they themselves. funny was also that the conferences before our EN times where FREE of charge and got financed through offerings collected during the conference sessions. after we joined EN the conferencess costed money. and not too less. and they still had to ask for money during the conference (offerings) to "cover the costs"... and for what was all this? just for a show. for a hype. it has not helped Europe one bit. | ||
| coppertree Senior Member Username: coppertree Post Number: 1501 Registered: 2-2005 Posted From: 172.162.47.162 |
Hi Robert, In the states they asked church workers, to get out of social security system. The motivation was to so that they did have to pay to the government. Later they dropped the workers, does this sound familiar? } | ||
| robert_unknown Senior Member Username: robert_unknown Post Number: 1452 Registered: 6-2006 Posted From: 212.186.14.119 |
it sounds irresposnible like...! |
