| Author | Message | ||
     easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1588 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.201 |
"38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" John 7:38,39 "13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14,14 "The church today has been robbed. Robbed of its credentials: miracles, signs, and wonders. Robbed of its power: the Holy Spirit baptism. Robbed of its emphasis: anointed ministries..." "After years of being a fudamentalist preacher I have arrived at the conclusion that the intricate system contrived about 150 years ago, popularized by John Darby's commentaries and the Scofield Reference Bible and perpetrated by a large number of "fundamentalists," has consistently robbed the church of much needed power and has been used to justify the absence of the supernatural in our ministries." "So, the church is lulled to sleep as though her songs were lullabies and her "gos-pill" were tranquilizers. Of course, there are many "spiritual sedatives." There are many sources of somnambulism which have entered into the church or which have worked on it from without; but I can think of no greater cause of the church's weakness today that the subtle facetiousness of one of its own great bulwarks-DISPENSATIONALISM." "...I am in disagreement with any theory that compartmentalizes the Scripture and therefore rules out the power of God for this age. And that is exactly what dispensationalism has done." "There are a million things to preach against, but because the miraculous, the supernatural, has been removed from our midst, we find very little to testify for." "The dispensationalist bases his whole system on this one idea: that the gifts vanished from the experience of the church, therefore they are no longer needed. Yet he never seems to consider why they vanished." "...if they preached on "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit: How to Get It"? But the revival that everybody is talking about and so pitifully few are receiving will come only when men like R.A. Torrey arrive on the scene and start teaching from the Bible exactly what Torrey, Moody, Finney, Gordon, Mueller, Simpson, Murray, and others taught and experienced. Torrey put his finger on it when he said, "Men and women, that is what we all need - The Baptism of the Holy Spirit." We;ve Been Robbed By Wilfred C. Meloon, Independent Baptist Pastor, Logos Publishing, 1971. | ||
| kobegone New member Username: kobegone Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
Easeltline Dispensationalism only teaches that God dealt with mankind differently throughout history: dispensation of innocence, dispensation of conscience, dispensation of human government, dispensation of law, dispensation of grace, and dispensation of divine government (future). If you study the bible from beginning to end, you will see that this is true. Dispensation is defined as an administration. It's not that it teaches that the power of God has vanished; at least the church I came from didn't teach that. But on the contrariwise we taught that one needs the power of God from on high (The Holy Ghost Baptism). If the bible said, "IT is for you, and your children, and as many as call on the Lord our God." Then that's what it meant | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 821 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Easeltine is simply promoting his brand of deception. Hilariously, Finis Jennings Dake, author of pentecostalism's Bible, is a dispensationalist. I know of no Christian who agrees with the loss of the supernatural powers of God. As to the loss of the gifts, that statement is ridiculous. 1. Apostles 2. Prophets 3. Teachers 4. Miracles 5. Healings 6. Helps 7. Administrations (1 Corinthians 12) 1. Prophecy 2. Ministry 3. Teaching 4. Exhortation 5. Giving 6. Leading 7. Showing mercy (Romans 12) 1. Evangelists 2. Pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4) Are all quiet active today. The signs gifts given to the unbelieving Jews have ceased. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1591 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.143 |
kobegone, The last poster represents the dangerous aspect of Dispensationalism that the Baptist Minister Wilfred Meloon was talking about. You state, "...one needs the power of God from on high (The Holy Ghost Baptism). If the bible said, "IT is for you, and your children, and as many as call on the Lord our God." Then that's what it meant." Yes, Acts 2:39 is what you quote, and the power from on high is still applicable today. "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8 The List of the 9 Supernatural, Charismatic Gifts from 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 are as follows: 1. Gift of the Word of Wisdom. 2. Gift of the Word of Knowledge. 3. Gift of Faith. 4. Gift of Healing. 5. Gift of Miracles. 6. Gift of Prophecy. 7. Gift of Discerning of Spirits. 8. Gift of Different Kinds of Tongues. 9. Gift of Interpretation of Tongues. A point that also may be said is that Ministries, such as Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers practice these supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit as the LORD wills. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 825 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. easeltine: You are absolutely right! I believe every single word in God's (w)Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages and that scares the hell out of your religion!! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1914 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
There are not "nine Charismatic gifts" listed in 1 Corinthians 12. Provide me the scripture that states there are, please. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3749 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
mcmstaff... they nine listed. even though it does not SAY there are nine they DO list nine. so quit argueing about how it is worded and understand that they meant 9, nine , what is it that you cant understand about that | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 830 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. easeltine: Are you jewish, perchance (Acts 2:39)? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1919 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Aaron, please show me where the word "gift" is used in the Greek to describe the list easeltine provides in his post above. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1592 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.103 |
mcmstaff78, I admit that I do not know Greek, so I am unqualified to say what the exact word really means. I am looking at my Greek Interlinear, "The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament" by Berry, 1988, (Textus Receptus Stephens 1550). This is how they translate it word by word: 12:1 "Spirituals", translated to KJV as "spiritual gifts." 12:4 "of gifts", translated to KJV as "of gifts". 12:7 "manifestation of the Spirit", tranlated to KJV as "manifestation of the Spirit." 12:4 is describing in the Greek as these nine items as Gifts. 12:7 is describing in the Greek as manifestation of the Spirit. Please give a response to what you are talking about. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1593 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.103 |
Acts 2:39 - No, I am one of the, "...and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call.", part of the verse. I'm a combo of English, Dutch, and German, but that makes no difference in Christ. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1594 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.103 |
One could call them manifestations of the Spirit to be more precise. That would seem to indicate something that is unlearned. 1 Corinthians 12:4 - Stephen's 1550 Textus Receptus translates that as Gifts. KJV - Gifts NIV - Gifts Amplified - "Now there are distinctive varieties and distributions of endowments (gifts, extraordinary powers distinguishing certain Christians, due to the power of divine grace operating in their sould by the Holy Spirit) and they vary.." NRSV - Gifts NASB (1995 Updated) - Gifts The Jerusalem Bible, (Catholic) - Gifts Old Living - Special Abilities Old Revised Standard Version - Gifts NAB - Spiritual Gifts ESV - God's various Gifts The Webster Bible - Gifts Old NASB - Gifts | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1920 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Actually, the word "gift" is not ascribed to any of the "manifestations", other than "gifts of healing", and the word translated as "gifts" is "charisma", which doesn't mean "gift" at all, in the English sense, but is a "grace working", a charis ma, as is the word in 12:4. Again, however, it is only specifically applied to "healings". "Manifestation" is "phanerosis" in the Greek; an expression or exhibition. But this does not equate into all of these being "supernatural" in the typical Pentecostal/Charismatic interpretation. Many things in our lives are "manifestations" of God's Spirit. My point is that there is nothing in these verses that demand the P/C interpretation. It is simply an interpretation that has grown out of Pentecostal supposition and practice. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3754 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
mcmstaff... if you dont have sense enough to know that it is talking about what we receive from GOD ( and everythinhg we receive from HIM) then you are more stupid than i thought | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3757 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
mcmstaff... if you dont have sense enough to know that it is talking about what we receive from GOD ( and everythinhg we receive from HIM) then you are more stupid than i thought | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1923 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
My, my, my...arron, exactly what do you think St. Paul meant when he wrote "If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol." Second question: do you think it is loving to call someone "stupid"? Again, you interpret the scripture based on your practice and experience and then assume your interpretation to be the "obvious" one. This is question begging and circular reasoning. In what sense do believers "receive" these nine manifestations (for that is what the scriptures declare them to be) of the Holy Spirit? My original point was that these nine manifestations are not "gifts", and the scriptures don't describe them as such, yet Pentecostal "theology" consistently terms them as such. So much for following the scriptures. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1623 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
Romans 12:4-6 KJV (4) For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: (5) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (6) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Examining more scripture might help you all out. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3760 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
i do NOT base my interpetation of the scripture on my "practice and experiance" i studied the word of GOD FOR MANY YEARS IN THE BAPTIST CHURCH I USED TO ATTEND when i saw that the bible taught there was more for me then i started seeking more from THE LORD and i received THE HOLY GHOST with the evidence of tongues and still believe in it. it may not have been loving to call some one stupid, so i will change what i said .... ignirance was a better word thank you for reminding me , we receive the gifts of THE SPIRIT (the nine) according to our ability to work them in other words what GOD feel we are able to use.. at any rate i received THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISIM which IS a GIFT from GOD and i have received some on the gifts of THE SPIRIT WHICH ARE OF GOD and i have manifested the GIFTS which are of GOD. you should try to understand from apentcostal what they mean when they say these things instead of try to pove us wrong with every thing we say | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1926 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
You keep saying that arron, doesn't make it the correct interpretation of the scriptures (or of your personal experience). BTW, since you apparently don't actually read what I post, I was a tongues believer for more than 20 years, and was a pastor as well. I understand what you mean, I simply disagree with it and believe you are deceived. I am also trying illustrate that the scriptures do not support your interpretation. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3765 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
then if you were a pastor and if you did claim to speak in tongues it was all false and you knew it and you deceived many people with your false life. if you had received the real experiance OF THE BAPTISUM OF THE HOLY GHOST WITH THE EVIDENCE OF TONGUES you would still be a believer. you had nothing then as you apparently dont now i feel sorry for you as you have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the saints and i do read what you say and consider it and know that i am listening to one who has left the true teachings of the word of GOD. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3766 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
also can you still speak in the gibberish as you call it can you write down what you say jus be careful if you do for uyou can come close to blaspheing THE HOLY GHOST | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1932 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
You really don't read, do you arron? The way you read things into my posts must be the same way you read into the scriptures - just what you want to see. I never have written I didn't believe in it when I was doing it. I didn't know any better and got sucked into the whole Pentecostal/Charismatic thing, thinking that was real Christianity. That was the lie, but I didn't know it then. Took me a couple years after I actually left the whole movement to see it for what it really is. But while I was in it, I believed it and never deliberately deceived anyone (though it was all deception). As for the rest of your posts - sorry, both your reasoning as well as your writing make no sense. I can't make it out enough to even respond to it. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3768 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
you know why you cant resond to what i said about what you call gibberish because you are afraid you will commit sin against THE HOLY GHOST . you were still a hypocrite when you were preaching a lie as you call it for you never were a beliver (Message edited by arron on November 26, 2007) | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1624 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
AAron, I do not think it is the gifts that any one questions, but how it is used in the church world today. It is like telling soemone they are healed and they are still in a wheelchair. Is it truth or is it a lie. From one bapticostal to another. Think about it. Is telling a person in a wheelchair he/she is healed is that a lie. If not explain it in your terms. Explain so others might come to understand. If it is a lie then explain how it is a lie. Explain why it is not a lie. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1934 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Arron, how is it being a hypocrite to preach what you believe? I was a tongues believer and, as best I can tell, believed very similar to what you do now. Just because I now believe it to be deception, does not mean I was a hypocrite and was not a believer. I'll tell you what, you answer my question whether you thought it was loving to call me "stupid" (1 Cor. 13:1) and I'll respond to your post regarding writing down babel (I still can't make any sense out of the second half of your post above that). | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3769 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
turtle good to hear from you. i have never told nor has our church ever told any one in a wheelchair that they were healed so i dont know , i personal am not going to do that unless the person were to say they were healed and got up and walked them selves... and by the way it is arron not aaron | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3770 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
yes as you were acting in a stupid way didnt JESUS call them hypocrites and foxes.. was HE wrong now answer my question about the so called babel and beside if you cant understand what im saying in the post well then you are well??? | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3771 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
yes as you were acting in a stupid way didnt JESUS call them hypocrites and foxes.. was HE wrong now answer my question about the so called babel and beside if you cant understand what im saying in the post well then you are well??? | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4322 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
by the way it is arron not aaron Arron, thanks for keeping the spelling and everything else straight. You are the epitome of factnet acuity. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1626 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
Arron, The problem here is not you or your beliefs. You and i know that there is a difference in pentecostal and independent groups across america and elsewhere. Some independent grous do follow traditional church teachings. The ones that these people on these boards have trouble with is health and wealthiers as i like to call them. False prophets that only after money. They speak in tongues on an every church day occurence and have fake healings. You and I know music does not have to play for God to move in a church service. People do not have to speak in tongues for God to move in a church. I have seen a pentecostal service as still as a what I understand a Quaker service to be and God mightly move. And I have seen interpretation that was true as well, but there is also alot of fakery out there. There is fakery almost in every type of church these days. I am more of a conservative then a fundamentalist, but I adhere to basic teaching of scripture and if that makes me a fundamentalist so be it. If my stance on women in ministry is wrong then every church in america needs to get rid of women pastors and teachers and not allow them to teach in the home. I do not think this is what God wants. Men and women need to be welling to share as the Lord directs not as man directs. Not for profit but to share the truth. And never to handle truth loosely. | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1627 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
Arron sorry about spelling | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3778 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
oh that alright my name is pronounced well like air ron i guess (lol) and not aaron | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 838 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Come, Rev. Ms. Turtle, tell us what your position on women preachers is this week!! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1936 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Hmmmm, let me see, so what you are saying is when you write something that is so poorly communicated that someone reading it (in this case, myself) cannot understand it, it is the reader who is "stupid" rather than the writer? I would suggest using punctuation and writing in complete sentences would be helpful here. Also, I would not equate Our Lord calling religious hypocrites "hypocrites" and "foxes" is the same as calling someone with whom you disagree "stupid". That, it seems to me, is more on par with what the Lord taught about calling someone a "fool". But maybe you don't know that scripture? As for the babel, I most assuredly could tape it and then write it down phonetically. How would that be anything remotely approaching blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1630 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
My stance has not changed but have been enlighten a little more in the actual gifts and the actual fakery of gifts. God does not change he is still the Great I Am, The Alpha and the Omega, The First and the Last, and does not Change. He is still King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Women are to share as well as men the truth of the gospel. All are called to preach and teach that follow Christ. Not all preach behind a pulpit, not all teach in sunday school. Some of the best teachers and preachers are in the work force or in their homes training those around them to know Jesus. Some say alot some say very little. ATAM do you glorify God in what you are doing? Or do you glorify self. What is your motive for being Here on this board? Is it to destory Christianity or to uplift Christ Jesus. (Message edited by turtle on November 27, 2007) | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 844 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Rev. Ms. Turtle: You position keeps shifting to suit the discussion. You are the sincere meaning of fraud. You joined an echo in condemning me for preaching as a woman, knowing full well I am male. Quoting: "Is it to destory Christianity or to uplift Christ Jesus." End quote. My dear friend, I am one of the few standing on the solid rock of Christ, unwavering. It is not I who has had more positions than Kama Sutra. Besides, the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism is in no way related to Christianity. So, you see anything I say about pentecostalism is actually building up Christianity. Unlike your kind, I have no intention of leading anyone into the flames of hell. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3780 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.119.39.156 |
tatm... we have yet to find out what church / denomanation you belong too. ( see i used a period) we have yet to hear you say anything about the other denomanations such as baptist , methodist, or whatever.(again a period) i knw that i am not as educated as you put yourself to be. who ordained you? where did you get your doctorate? where or what college did you attend or university? i only attended to the twelveth grade of school. i was ordained by a board of men, who had been ordained by a board of men who had been ordained and so on. i have studied the BIBLE on my own and read other books based on the bible. i have read many cammentaries. BUT as i said before i do not take what man says or books that are not the bible say, i take what GODS WORD says and the BIBLE does teach tongues , as we practice in the pentecostal church, or at least in my church that i attend. no we are not perfect but we are trying to get there. i do pray that this satisties your request that i write correctly. ( and i didnt have anyone to help me either ) now you please answer my question s that i asked. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 863 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Arron: Quoting: "BUT as i said before i do not take what man says or books that are not the bible say, i take what GODS WORD says and the BIBLE does teach tongues , as we practice in the pentecostal church, or at least in my church that i attend." End quote. Your conception of scripture is purely man-made, not God's word. Faked infantile gibberish, as practiced by your religion, can not be found in scripture. Nor can you find the second or subsequent event to salvation as required by your religion. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3788 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
why dont you answer my question what church NAME IT by name what is it baptist, methodist, or what. where did you get your doctorate or your ordination? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1625 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.185 |
Arron, Considering his Posts I doubt he really has ordination papers! He is probably a Rev. like Jesse Jackson... | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3790 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
so i know... yes that is how i feel | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 874 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Arron: Not only am I licensed by the church as a minister, I am licensed by the state to perform marriage and burial ceremonies. hehehehehe I remember reading one of your religion's doctrinal statement. They claimed "We are joined together to license ministers of similar beliefs." My church's constitution says we came together to reach the lost for Christ. again, hehehehehehe | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3791 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
tatm... you did not read my churches doctrinal statement as we have never published it. i still am asking what church you are with ( if any) and who ordained you ( what church) the fist in our church constitution say we come together as a body of believers to preach the gospel for the saving of souls and to establish churches..... | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1956 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
What "church" would that be, t(not)atm? Where did you get your "doctorate"? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 875 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78 The body of Christ. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 876 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Arron: Here is one for you. http://www.boxfreeconcepts.com/download/degree.html | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1970 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
 Nope, doesn't fly with me. C'mon, what are you ashamed of? Why is it you cannot answer one single question that is put to you? Here it, plain and simple one more time: What is your religious affiliation? Who has given you your ministerial credentials? Where did you get your doctorate? The more you refuse to answer, the less credibility you have with anyone here (not that it's very high right now anyway). C'mon, sweetie, you can tell us!!  | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 879 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Knowitall: Frankly Charlotte, I don't give a . . . | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1976 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Tst, tst - careful, you'll lose your salvation. Oh, that's right, you're convinced you are saved and that you can't lose your salvation. Nice little license there, don't you think? C'mon, t(not)atm, you can do it, I know you can... What is your religious affiliation? Who has given you your ministerial credentials? Where did you get your doctorate? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1977 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Oh, and at the risk of you hitting me yet again with that wickedly clever retort about being a "know it all", the name was "Scarlett" and the line actually is simply "My dear, I don't give a damn." See, those pesky facts again. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3795 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
tatm... so that is where you got your doctorate and was ordained ? what church did you use? i was ordianed by the elders of our church who laid hand on me and anointed me with oil and gave me a charge to fulfill and ordained me | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1984 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
But who laid hands on your "elders"? | ||
| kobegone Junior Member Username: kobegone Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.43.210 |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries "Frankly Charlotte, I don't give a . . ." "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." This shows what's really in your heart (not Christ-like) Even pretending to say it is just as bad as saying it. If it's in your heart that is what matters the most to God. You Still Have The Mouth Of A Marine! You must be the type that use those santified curse words? | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3796 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
mcmstaff ... other elders before them. this has been going on since the day of pentecost. which i feel you dont believe but it started then and has been kept up since | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3797 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
mcmstaff ... other elders before them. this has been going on since the day of pentecost. which i feel you dont believe but it started then and has been kept up since | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 886 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. kobegone: Welcome back. I see Jesus is not welcome in your humble abode. What a shame. I was watching the news the other night and listened to a pentecostal I agree with, at least with one sentence. The gentleman had been booted from his church. Afterwards, the Bishop was invited to California to speak to a homosexual gathering. He returned to his home in Virginia and opened a new church ministering to homosexuals. His statment to the news media with which I agree "Jesus would not be welcome in any church today." I might go a little farther and say that Jesus Christ would not even be allowed to speak in public in this day and age. What a terrible lose it is for folks like yourself to never have met Jesus Christ. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 887 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Arron: Your religion does not go back to the day of Pentecost. Your religion was invented in 1906. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1992 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Arron - you know that is not true (that the laying on of hands by elders in your religion goes back to the Day of Pentecost (which I most assuredly believe in)). When I was a Methodist minister, I could trace my "ordination" back to Thomas Coke. But that was all phony, because neither Coke nor Wesley nor Asbury were bishops and how no authority to ordain anyone. My guess is that your elders cannot even trace their "ordination" to anyone properly ordained by any group other than the one they started themselves. Take some time to actually study Church history - I would suggest the works of Jaroslav Pelikan. But start out reading the letters of Clement, St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies, Eusibius' The History of the Church. You'll learn something, I promise. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3802 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
i base what i believe on the scriptures and they let me know that they ordained minister back then and it i still going on today so i will say no more . you since you believe that all is phony amyway just believe what you want and i will what i want that was to mcmstaff ==================================================now to tatm....i do not believe you for you are a liar and cant prove anything you will not even tell the name of your church or where you were ordained. oh wait a minite i forgot you got one of those fake ordianation certificates | ||
| oldpaths New member Username: oldpaths Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.166.127.231 |
The gifts of the spirit will only disappear if we let them disappear. God doesn't withdraw them, our unbelief keeps them away. He doesn't force His holy gifts upon those who do not believe. We are as close to God as we desire to be and we have all of God that we allow in our lives. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 914 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Welcome, M(r)(s). Oldpaths: Unfortunately, I have had to rescue too many, as you call them unbelievers, from the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3842 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
tatm... when you tell what church , by name you belong too and who ordained you by name and what dotorate was conferred on you and by whom untill then just shut your mouth | ||
| kobegone Junior Member Username: kobegone Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.40.72 |
"Mr. kobegone: Welcome back. I see Jesus is not welcome in your humble abode. What a shame. I was watching the news the other night and listened to a pentecostal I agree with, at least with one sentence. The gentleman had been booted from his church. Afterwards, the Bishop was invited to California to speak to a homosexual gathering. He returned to his home in Virginia and opened a new church ministering to homosexuals. His statment to the news media with which I agree "Jesus would not be welcome in any church today." I might go a little farther and say that Jesus Christ would not even be allowed to speak in public in this day and age. What a terrible lose it is for folks like yourself to never have met Jesus Christ." I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, YOU MUST BE HAVING VIETNAM FLASHBACKS! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 930 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Kobegone: Try reading your Bible sometime. Jesus Christ cursed like a drunken sailor on a Saturday night shore leave. OH! By the by, Jesus Christ was also a well-known racist. Again, try reading your Bible. The real Jesus Christ is not close to the false Jesus you have invented. Don't wait till judgement day to discover the truth. | ||
| kobegone Junior Member Username: kobegone Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 66.74.40.72 |
Are you serious! I think you're being sarcastic. Your on a roll, but I think it's time for you to come out of your foxhole, put down your M-16, throw away the grenades, and stop field striping your MRE'S, Vietnam is over! Are you drunk? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 936 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Kobegone: Any chance you have read even the red letter portion of your Bible? Do I need to take you for a walk through scripture? EH? Are you by chance, a Caucasian male of middle eastern descent? Perhaps, jewish? Just for the record, the M16 is/was and always will be a death warrant for its user. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3850 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
kobegone ,,,, tatm is a liar and th truth has yet to be found in him | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 241 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.224.26 |
YOU-yaya GOTTA-yaya BE-yaya OUT OF-yaya YOUR-yaya MINDS-yaya YOUR-yaya ABUNCHA-yaya CRAZY-yaya FOOLS-yaya CAN-yaya EYE-yaya GETTA-yaya BIG-yaya AMEN-yaya ON-yaya THAT-yaya ONE-yaya (I don't no how to interpate can anyone help a brother out) | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 993 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Doberman53: Did you know Jesus Christ was a racist? Would you like to read the Bible? Did you know Jesus Christ cursed like a drunken sailor? Again, would you like to read your Bible? | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 248 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.224.26 |
Praise the lord for he has sent me a messenger from God. Wait a minute I'm not supposed to bow down before angels. Sorry buddy you must have gotten mixed up with your deliveries. you need to go up three clicks. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 998 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Doberman53: Quoting: " . . . go up three clicks." End quote. Was that three chicks or three klicks? I hate these encrypted messages, since I don't have my decoder ring. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3870 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
for any one to say that JESUS WAS ARACIST AND CURSED LIKE A DRUNKEN SAILOR IS BLASPHEMY BESIDE THEM BELITTLING JESUS, THEY ARE ALSO JUDGING SAILORS AS BEING A DRUNKEN AND A CURSEING BUNCH.. SO ONCE AGAIN TATM IS PROVED TO BE A LIAR | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 999 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Arron: Any chance you have read even the red letter portion of a Bible? I can prove my point. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3872 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.119.3 |
yes i have read the entire kjv bible red letters which are man made to let the reader know CHRIST said it and the black letters too of bothe the old and new testaments. so prove your point | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 260 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.224.26 |
TATM: My three clicks up was to say pass it on up to arron. I've seen your posts of this drunkeness, and racist Jesus. I'll play the fool for you, and snap at your hook and line. what is your thought?? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1000 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Dobman53: Allow me to aplogize, I posted your name as doberman above. I meant nothing by it, just a typying error. I seem to remember a discussion along that line from some time in the pass, though. Sorry. Racist: Noun 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination Merriam-Webster's 11 Collegiate Dictionary. Racist: Noun Discrimination or prejudice based on race. American Hertiage Dictionary. Racist: Noun 1. a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others Wordnet, Princeton University. Would we be in agreement thus far? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1001 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Dobman53: Prejudice: Noun An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts. A preconceived preference or idea. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others. American Hertiage Dictionary. Prejudice: verb To cause (someone) to judge prematurely and irrationally. See Synonyms at bias. To affect injuriously or detrimentally by a judgment or an act. Prejudice: Verb verb 1. disadvantage by prejudice 2. influence (somebody's) opinion in advance Wordnet, Princeton University. Prejudice: Verb to harm or endanger (a person's position, prospects etc) in some way Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary Prejudice: Verb to injure or damage (rights) by some legal action or prejudice Merriam-Webster's 11 Collegiate Dictionary. Still in agreement? | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 264 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.224.26 |
TATM: Dobman has to do with one of my hobies. Astonomy. Dobs are a slang for a type of telescope Their actually Newtonians on a Dobson mount. I find I have lost something on the transation. must be these discussions of tongue talking, or perhaps our enterpeter can't understand the Jibberish. I see your post of the verbs and nouns, I'm supposing now I shall once again strike at the bait. or does this hook no longer have a barb?? | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1758 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.190 |
Gosh TATM - I think you have finally met somebody even more insulting than you are? Oh, Doberman, that is really saying something for me... | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1003 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Dobman53: You are correct, I do remember you saying that previously. Here is my rendition. D date O f B irth M onday A ugust N ineth 53 1953 The hook never did/does have a barb. I am a catch/release kinda fellower. Which definition would you like to start with on prejudice? Let us look at the Bible for a second. By the by, God is number one racist. Read the Old Testament. The tribe of Israel were God's chosen people. He sent many people to their death simply because they were not Israelite. "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:5,6 (KJV). Salvation was offered only to Israelites, based exclusively on race. In fact, if you keep reading you will find Peter is the number three biggest racist in the Bible. God offered salvation to the gentiles for the first time in Acts with Cornelius. At that time, Peter refused to go. Peter held fast to the claim I have never eaten anything common or unclean. Later, Peter lost at least three argument with the Apostle Paul. First, I know you know, was the argument over circumcision. Like I said, God was the number one racist because he chose Israel. Jesus was number two for refusing to allow salvation to gentiles and Peter was number three because he refused to even eat with a gentile. | ||
| kobegone Junior Member Username: kobegone Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.85.198.163 |
TATM is gone stone mad, I really think he's having Vietnam flashbacks (put away your e-tool ATM) I think he have what you call "POST WAR SYNDROME" Just remember this one verse ATM and hide it in your sick heart; "For God so loved the world," and "God is not willing any perish, but that ALL COME TO REPENTANCE." What you need to do is go back to your bible, and rightly divide the word of truth, cause right now you've be rejected. You call yourself a preacher? What are you preaching. I think you are a secret Black Panther (besides, it was during the Vietnam era when the rose up) | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1014 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
Arron, I have to go back to something you posted earlier. Your claim is that anyone who spoke in tongues, and then stopped: 1. Never had the Holy Spirit. 2. Is not a true believer. 3. Is in danger of blasph. the Holy Spirt. Where do you get this garbage? Like mcm, I too spoke in tongues for years, and was a pastor. I too taught and believed a false doctrine. You know, I am getting ready to take another pastoral assignment in January, though only part time by choice. I am actually more equipped to teach the scriptures now, than in all the years as a P/C. The reason: I can allow the Holy Spirit to work through me with out all of the theatrics that really do not produce any fruit. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1007 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. kobegone: What would you call someone who orders little babies murdered simply because they are the wrong color? Answer carefully, my dear friend. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1008 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Bear: Sorry to hear about your TV. At least, you are the only one I know rich enough to have a big screen. I saw on the news that a woman (Washington TWP, Mich.) who shot her husband's big screen tv because he wanted to turn up the heat and she didn't. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 277 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.224.26 |
Easeltine: I surely do poke fun, but my heart is not of an evil man. My only hope for you is to realise my jests are ment in a constructive way. Many in my family speak in your tongue. I have to admit, Our arguements about talking in tongues amongst one another, have long since stopped. We agreed for the families sake to no long mention such things. This was decades ago. Beings we no longer live in the same state it has proven to be for the best. I am sorry if you might feel threatened by my tactics, or see malice in my heart. My silly attempts at comedy are ment soley as a ploy for one to open their eye's. In past arguements within my own family. It would make no difference what bible scriptures I might quoate. They would come back with some other scripture which they would always misinterpret. I guess I should have chalked it up to lifes travels. We know it's a ruff and cobled path, with many barriers. I'm perplexed that so many of the penticostal faith choose to walk this path with their eye's closed. Now I know many of the Penticostal faith will say they have witnessed the utterance change lives. Are you so sure of that which you have witnessed. Have you ever thought, that just maybe, you might be giving the glory to togues instead of God. On the day of penticost are you sure that what I call jiberish saved 3000. I'll be the first to admit 3000 were saved by Gods own word. But on the day of penticost, it made no difference what ever language you spoke. all who heard did understand. Easeltine it was not jiberish they heard. It was God talking to them in their own native tongue, and if someone right next to them that spoke another language. They themselves heard it in their native tongue. When all who were present realised they had heard from God in each of their own's distinct personal language. They didn't think to themselves they heard an unknown tongue. they realised they they had all witnessed a miracle, and 3000 were saved. Had they heard a bunch of jiberish. How many do you honestly think if any, would then jump straight to their feet, and say I've witnessed a miricle. I shall now follow this faith unto my death. Easeltine don't react to this like so many have in the past. This talk of the following away from the faith, and such leads you right back to where you started. Walking down that cobled path with ones eye's shut. DOBMAN | ||
| kobegone Junior Member Username: kobegone Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 75.85.198.163 |
Okay huuum let me see????? I call him ATM; you did go to NAM didn't you. I heard the troops killed little babies. Did I answer your question??????????????????????????????? | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 278 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.224.26 |
APTM: You were right of one thing when you spread out my handel in an attempt at humor . 1953 is my year of birth. The rest was all wrong. Dear sir: You are of a very strange mind. My attempts at humor could easily be thought of as not so funny. But your atempts are of a completely different complexity all together. I've played a hook and catch with you, only to find you have tossed be back. Little did you realise that it was upon my hook you unknowingly swallowed the bait. Giveing you all the line you thought you wanted. You have completely exposed your hand. It's a sad day for all when people come across such a sad case as you. I can't imagine what goes through ones mind when they have slammed the door on Jesus. Oh for sure you'll tell all about God, and such. But in your own lust for admoration, their is no room in your heart for Jesus. You think in your own twisted way you shall lead us to God. Has the lust to be looked upon by all, as some sort of a savior blinded you completely. Do you honestly thing any shall follow you straight to the pits of hell? Tell us now how foolish we are. Speak of all the books you have read. These new worlds, new age, new everything authors you read from. Do these authers now know more than God. The blind leading, the blind, leads to no where. But then again, I'm sure once you have finish your latest new age book. You will then have all the answers. Now won't you! One day just before you leap in to that ultimate black hole. Think for just a moment won't you. This glory you forever have lusted for, was it worth it. So you'll then stand there all alone. that one final leap before all mankind. Do you really think you'll have tought us all a leason. By witnessing your demise. No you'll have not tought us anything close to what you might think. We will have only witnessed what evil can do to a spirit which Refuses to think. Take that last leap, with no love for Jesus. Gods own face you'll never see. In a black hole of eternal darkness your authors speak of with such glee. Doomed for all eternity with them you shall forever you be. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1768 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.204 |
Dobman, A Philippians 3:12-16 to both of us: "Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I amy lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind." | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 281 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.224.26 |
Easeltine: Let me close for this evening by saying this. Perhaps I've come off in a thinking of where I might hold myself above you. Never would I think such a thing. Such a thought as that would be ones first steps to darkness. I may be foolish in my jests. But never unwise in my thoughts. I'll never be so big of a man to not say I love you. When we know Jesus it's all so easy to say such a thing. Good night my friend! DOB APTM: needs to come from out of his darkness | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1010 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Kobegone: You may want to stay away from the Old Testament. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1011 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Dobman53: Quoting: "Tell us now how foolish we are. Speak of all the books you have read. These new worlds, new age, new everything authors you read from. Do these authers now know more than God." End quote. Thank you for informing me. I did not know Moses was a new age author or the Apostle Paul for that matter. Perhaps, you could recommend a better book to read than the Bible. As I said before Jesus Christ would not be welcome in any church today. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1015 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
tatm  I did not know that I owned a big screen, but I am thinking about purchasing a shotgun. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 293 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.240.113 |
APTM: When you spoke of Crist being a drunk, then proceeded to spew many number of things. I felt you must be takeing up most of your free time reading strange books. I can only now presume you too have taken up a coded language. No harm!! NO foul!! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1013 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.221.7.153 |
Mr. Bear: Bend the sights before your wife gets her hands on it. Either that or learn to agree on the thermostat setting. hehehehehehe | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.240.113 |
APTM: at least the Pentacostals are looking up. You should stop staring at the ground. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 295 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.240.113 |
APTM: are you going to give me a fire arms lesson as well. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1014 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.221.7.153 |
Mr. Dobman53: Quoting: "When you spoke of Crist being a drunk, . . ." End quote. Kindly quote me correctly. I mess things up enough on my own. Unless, of course, you know something about the wedding wine I don't. Did I mention "hissy fits?" | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1015 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.221.7.153 |
Mr. Dobman53: When I arrived in country in Viet Nam, an old timer told me to watch out for bullets with my name on them. Later, I learned to be especially watchful of those addressed "to whom it may concern." Speaking of pentecostals looking up, have you ever compared the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism to the snake oil salesmen of old? | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 296 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.240.113 |
APTM: when I was about 20 years old, my close friends were all about 10 years my senior. We were a lively bunch riding our chopped bikes through the door, of our local lady's club. I was amazed at the courage I had when I was amongst my friends. I never felt threatened caring nothing about the size of any men. Was I living in a dream where reality played no parts. Living a life with men where God was not in their hearts. Oh we all have grone in wisdom. This surely has to be. For when I look at you, I still see a little of me. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1018 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 70.221.7.153 |
Mr. Dobman53: My bike riding days were mostly limited to pre or early adolescence, mostly showing-off for the young ladies. As for the local ladies club, I have indeed been in a whore house. I related the story on another thread, but can give it again if you like. OOPS! Almost forgot, I was also in a federal prison. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 297 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.240.113 |
APTM: We do share one thing. In our amazement of silly tongues. My only thought for you is to slap gentilly. You certainly don't mean them harm | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 298 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.240.113 |
THE lady's club was a strip bar. I'm of to the store now! be kind! DOB!! | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 299 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.240.113 |
I did a year and a half though not in one stretch. 30 days here and 60 days there. The judge once told me it appeared I was doing life on the installment plan | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Senior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 1021 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 75.200.119.235 |
Mr. Dobman53: While at the store, get something for me. Then eat it!! (AH! Food, the love of my live, not really). My time in prison wasn't behind bars. I had a successful prison ministry for women immates. My trip to a whore house was not the main event but, rather, a side trip. We were helping to built an orphanage some years ago. The missionary took us the whore house to meet the young ladies there. I, also, pulled a stint as a federal certified jailer (early 70's). I may have tucked you in at night. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1029 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Arron, I am still waiting for a response from my post on December 20. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3897 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.117.203 |
bear ... you said your self it was a false doctrine, so therefore you did not believe anyway. if you had really had THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISUM WITH THE EVICENCE OF TONGUES, you would have kept on with them, if you had ever believed in the first place you would never have gone to another gospel and declared the pentecostal experiance to be a false doctrine. you may have gotten saved now i dont know i pray that you have. i know many people do not have THE BAPTISUM OF THE HOLY GHOST who are saved they have not been taught or read for them selves the truth OF GODS WORD concerning THIS . i am sorry that i did not answer sooner but i have been sick and tied up with different things here and did not see your post till now. i was once a baptist and then i saw the light of pentecostal belief and i went to that as i saw it . i am walking in THE LIGHT THAT GOD GAVE TO me and i am still saved and on my road to heaven. i pray that i have answered your question | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2097 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
arron, are you now saying you believe in some form of "once saved, always saved" - once 'baptized in the Spirit' and speaking in tongues, always so? Seriously? | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1032 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Arron, 1. The Pentecostal version of the Baptism in the HS does not have anything to do with salvation!!!!!!!! You know that Pentecostals believe this is something that happens after salvation, so, by your own admission, you are confused. Therefore, I still accept the "same" gospel, which is Jesus. I have been saved for 15 years. 2. I still belive that the Baptism according to Acts 1:8 is available today. I belive that the manifestations of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 are available today. I do not, however, believe that they are practiced correctly within pentecostal circles. 3. I DID believe, that is where you are wrong. I spoke in tongues everyday for 15 years; everyday!!!!! Now I understand that it did not have anything to do with the Holy Spirit, rather it was a learned practice. 4. No, you did not answer what I asked exactly. Here is what I posted: I have to go back to something you posted earlier. Your claim is that anyone who spoke in tongues, and then stopped: 1. Never had the Holy Spirit. 2. Is not a true believer. 3. Is in danger of blasph. the Holy Spirt. Please give SCRIPTURE to support this claim. Also, please add any additional resources which support this unbiblical belief. Please answer if you are able. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3907 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.117.203 |
bear .. where did i say that person did not first have to be saved>> and where did i say that i believed in once saved always saved i said i used to attend a baptist church but when i sawe the light i went to the pentecostal and i might add that if the baptist taught THE BAPTISUM OF THE HOLY GHOST i would still go there and as far as my saying that anyone who SAID THEY believed and WHO SAID they spoke in tongues did not reall do it for if it was real thay would not have stopped. is that you cant have THE REAL JESUS and forske HIM and say you dont belive in HIM any more neither can you say the same about THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT OF THE HOLY GHOST. i would no more believe if a person who said they lived right and were saved and tehn now say they dont believe in JESUS anymore then i would believe that the building next door to me is going to fly | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1036 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Arron, The first part of you response what not anything that I said. However, I want you to notice something. Here is what you said on Novenber 26: }then if you were a pastor and if you did claim to speak in tongues it was all false and you knew it and you deceived many people with your false life. if you had received the real experiance OF THE BAPTISUM OF THE HOLY GHOST WITH THE EVIDENCE OF TONGUES you would still be a believer. you had nothing then as you apparently dont now i feel sorry for you as you have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the saints and i do read what you say and consider it and know that i am listening to one who has left the true teachings of the word of GOD. You also said: also can you still speak in the gibberish as you call it can you write down what you say jus be careful if you do for uyou can come close to blaspheing THE HOLY GHOST Let us not forget: you know why you cant resond to what i said about what you call gibberish because you are afraid you will commit sin against THE HOLY GHOST . you were still a hypocrite when you were preaching a lie as you call it for you never were a beliver As in my last post, I ask you to give SCRIPTURAL evidence for these claims. - A hypocrite? - Never a believer? - Afraid of committing balsphemy? - Departed from the faith? That is crazy nonsense! A person is not saved because they speak in tongues. Tongues is not the eviedence of the Holy Spirit working in a persons life. I quit speaking in tongues, and I am more blessed spiritually now, because I am free from pentecostal games. Again, when you answer, give me SCRIPTURE, SCRIPTURE and SCRIPTURE for everything that you stated to mcmstaff78. I am not interested in more of your denominational banter. You claim that what you believe is in scripture, so show me! | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3908 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.117.203 |
bear.. acts 2:1 and 1 cor. chapters 12 and 14 all have to do with the gift of tongues and the other gifts as well. do you still believe in healing in miracles in prophecy and in faith and in in terpertation ? show me in scripture where it say it is not right to speak in tongues. paul said forbid not to speak in tongues if you are blessed spiritualy by GOD THE FATHER , GOD THE SON , AND GOD THE HOLY GHOST I AM GLAD but if it is some other spirit i am sorry for you | ||
| holy_ghost_in_power New member Username: holy_ghost_in_power Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 75.37.5.135 |
For a good history regarding the early days of Pentecostalism go to www.pentecostalpioneers.org. Somebody mentioned Don Williams of Vineyard - Another forum website that is maintained by Don Williams and Vineyard is www.kingdomrain.net Brother Arron, It is a wonder that you did not bring up Hebrews 10:26 for Brother Bear. Remember, it's the Holy Ghost in power and it's keeping us alive, it's all over us and it's bubbling up inside...Praise God...Jesus is keeping us alive! | ||
| holy_ghost_in_power New member Username: holy_ghost_in_power Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 75.37.5.135 |
Brother Arron, Remember what the man of God, Smith Wigglesworth, in his book, "On Spiritual Gifts": "But there is deplorable ignorance amoung those who have gifts. It is not right for you to think that because you have a gift, you are to wave it before the people and try to get their minds upon that, because, if you do, you will be out of the will of God. Gifts and callings in the body of Christ may be irrevocable, (Rom. 11:29), but remember that God calls you to account for properly administering the gift in a spiritual was after you have received it. It is not given to adorn you, but to sustain, build, edify, and bless the church. When God ministers through a member of the body of Christ and the church receives this edification, then all the members will rejoice together. God moves upon us as His offspring, as His choice, and as the fruit of the earth. He wants us to be elegantly clothed in wonderful raiment, even as our Master is." Brother, pray that the sweet Holy Spirit, sweet heavenly Dove, would descend again upon Brother Bear and revive him and fill him with the power of the Holy Spirit again, and that it would overflow out of him. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1038 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
HGIP, You stated: }Brother, pray that the sweet Holy Spirit, sweet heavenly Dove, would descend again upon Brother Bear and revive him and fill him with the power of the Holy Spirit again, and that it would overflow out of him. That is very kind, and I appreciate the thought. However... I am STILL filled with the Holy Spirit according to Acts 1:8. The power IS overflowing in me. I have just realized that speaking in MODERN DAY tongues is not the Holy Spirit, nor is it needed to have the Spirits power flow through me in everday life and in order to operate in the manifestations in 1 Corinthians 12. I am not opposed to the gifts (manifestation) of the HS, only the misuse and abuse of Pentecostalism. As I embark on a new ministry assignment this very week, I am thankful that the HS will empower me to do the work of the ministry. While I appreciate the prayer, what you desire to pray is already at work. | ||
| holy_ghost_in_power New member Username: holy_ghost_in_power Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 75.37.5.135 |
Brother Bear, Praise the LORD! That's just what Brother Wigglesworth meant when he said above: "Gifts and callings in the body of Christ may be irrevocable, (Rom. 11:29), but remember that God calls you to account for properly administering the gift in a spiritual was after you have received it. It is not given to adorn you, but to sustain, build, edify, and bless the church." It's always good to have the Holy Spirit come upon us! | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3909 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.117.203 |
bear no where did i say taht you are to "wave " your gifts before people. no having a "gift" does not save some one im not saved because i have a gift but i have a gift because i am saved. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1051 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Arron, ????????????????????????? I never mentioned anything about "waving" a gift. ?????????????? I did ask you to provide scripture for your allegations/beliefs which I posted above. Why is it that you have such a hard time providing scripture? One year ago I asked you on another thread to provide scripture that states Jesus only drank grape juice, and not real wine (The grape juice thing is neither biblically nor historically correct). You pulled out some verse that did not have anything to do with the topic. Is it because what you learn comes from the mouth of your pastor, and your foundation is in only what you are taught? Is it because you really do not have the ability to bring forth any text that can back up what you are saying? I am very confused about where you get your foundation??????????????????????????????? Once again, please provide scripture for your allegations. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 314 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.240.113 |
Arron: You posted above where you stated: Paul was said to not forbid the speaking of tongues. Paul was at odds with Peter about the speading of the gospel. This refrence concerning tongues was not about talking in gibbirish. For if one were to go to any town and start speaking like a crazy man no one would want anything to do with it. this speakings of tongues was in refrence to going to foriegn lands that spoke another language. Arron how is it that the Penticostals coud ever bring anyone to Christ. You talk of your gifts like they are fine white linen. Yet if you were to go to a foriegn land. Do you honestly think that the minute you spewed out a bunch of silly talk 1000's would be saved. Has you minister got you spoofed into to believing you are a chosen vessel pleasing to God. Again I put this question to you. If you were a gifted soul, do you think that speaking in this gifted tongue of your is going to bring, how many to the lord??? Now I know your so so sure of this gift. As I'm sure your minister has misquoated countless verses to you, time and time again. Arron this tongue talking you feel so close to was not born fron Isreal. It was born in the USA babtized in the blood of power hungry men who's only wish was for their fellow man to look upon them as gifted from God. The bigger production they could put on every sunday. The thicker their wallets became. The saddest part of the hole deal is, what it left of it's followers. God wants us to share the word. Now he doesn't exspect us all to be ministers. A seed now and again is more than exceptable. I'm sure you have felt that you have led many to Christ. Because you yourself have seen many except the gifts, and then seen them go on to speak with tongues. Have you ever concidered that just maybe these poor souls already new what they were supposed to do before they got there. After some proding by the minister they went ahead and gibbered! The whole church probably broke out in tongues, when the minister said his que words to the group. To show they were all filled in the spirit they all joined in. After such a complete filling by the holy spirit, I'm sure the minister mentioned the other gifts like seed faith and such. Sort of funny how only Penticostals pass the plate more than once a sermond. Ever noticed that Arron. Pass the plate when you get their. then pass the plate after some holy ghost talking. Arron I like you. I think your a fine man. And I believe you do love God probably more than most. But again if you wanted to please God do some seed planting. Don't be thinking you have special gifts. God doesn't like for any to hold themselves up high to be glorified by men. If God wants to lead an individual to the lord, help him. Don't act out like God is some sort of a fool who only speaks gibberish. And then be so foolish as to think you are special, and special people get holy gifts. In the long run Arron. Your Gibberish might be leading 1000's away from the Lord. DOBMAN | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.251.218.162 |
how is it that the Penticostals coud ever bring anyone to Christ. You talk of your gifts like they are fine white linen. Yet if you were to go to a foriegn land. Do you honestly think that the minute you spewed out a bunch of silly talk 1000's would be saved. Come on dobman. It's pretty clear that Paul's statement to not forbid speaking in tongues is not referring to evangelism in a foreign country. Read it in context. It isn't proving gibberish, but it is clearly an instruction for orderly use in the church. That is independent of the fact that p/c churches are growing and seeing people saved all over the world. I've seen thousands make a commitment to Christ, and never once have seen tongues used to do so. I've seen about 3 people stop speaking in tongues, and all of them were embittered by something having nothing to do with tongues. This excludes the claims here at factnet which represent only those who like to post in an internet forum and have already formed strong opinions in general. For every tongue talker persuaded to stop, hundreds on non tongue talkers become tongue talkers. I don't have facts and figures to prove this, but I have eyes and too many years of observation to see it different. It is my opinion and observation, but certainly not some statistical war I plan on entering into. Regardless, tongues seem less important to me now, in view of the controversy they seem to cause in some people, than ever before for the very reason that they are not essential. Nobody goes out and babbles a bunch of gibberish tongues to evangelize. That's ridiculous. Tongues save no one. A p/c brings someone to Christ just like you do. They preach the gospel, which has nothing to do with tongues. After they are saved, they can make up their mind as far as I am concerned. Gifts are equally available for everyone because the Holy Spirit is available to everyone and there's nothing special about them in that sense, though not all prophecy, speak in tongues, or any other particular gift. We all have our gifts and strengths, and we all have our limitations and weaknesses. I don't care if you guys don't speak in tongues. I feel it's your loss, but isn't a bad reflection on you or your sincerity or ability to lead someone to the Lord. I think some have what seem like good reasons for not speaking in tongues, even though I see it differently. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Junior Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.146.28 |
Mr. Xman3: Quoting: "I don't have facts and figures to prove this, but I have eyes and too many years of observation to see it different." End quote. Not only do you lack figures, but so does your religion (believeable figures). In fact, numbers claimed by your religion in places like Brownsville has been proven a damnable fraud. Your religion's only growth is in third world countries with a rich history in the occult. Quoting: "I don't care if you guys don't speak in tongues. I feel it's your loss, but isn't a bad reflection on you or your sincerity or ability to lead someone to the Lord. I think some have what seem like good reasons for not speaking in tongues, even though I see it differently." End quote. May I laugh? Again, you seem to have forgotten which waffle you are eating!! | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3936 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
bear .. perhaps ypu made it in post 37 which seems to be missing from the board did you delete it | ||
| xman3 New member Username: xman3 Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.251.218.162 |
tatm: There is a lot of evangelastic stuff out there, agreed. You do it all the time. Would you rather I say you are going to hell because you don't speak in tongues and are a Bible study idiot because you haven't arrived at the same conclusions I have? Sorry but since I don't believe that I can't say it. Your loss rev., not mine. I'm eating the love waffel with some humble syrup and refuse to think, act, or speak as if I have some special knowledge or insight. Tongues just isn't that big a deal. Most of you studied it out and live by your own faith and that's not for me to worry about in these non essential issues. I'm just taking advantage of the discussion opportunity and have found it fruitful despite you. I see quite a few good points being made here, so why not acknowledge them . No skin off my nose since unlike you, I have no religion to defend or crusade to accomplish. I merely think "gibberish" is ok. If any of my arguments parrallel the p/c standard line, so be it. If they are different, so be it. I wouldn't know really. I know what I believe though, and why. Being charismatic, there would logically be more agreement with them concerning tongues, though arron and myself have some differing beliefs. Most of my years have been in charismatic churches so I know what those churches taught and believed and since I found some things lacking and not lining up with the Word, I take advantage of this place to get another view from a few folks who have graciously or ungraciously taken the time to discuss with me. If I were to automatically write off everything a non tongue talker said or believe I would gain nothing from these threads and appear to be the arrogant p/c that you all keep conjuring up. I'll leave that up to you. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1056 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Arron, No, I do not delete posts from this thread. Besides, to edit or delete a post, it must be done within 30 minutes of posting. I NEVER made that stement at all! Now, please answer the main question. Please provide SCRIPTURE for your statements. I am begining to think that: 1. You can not find any. 2. You do not know how. 3. Everything that you believe as truth comes from the mouth of your pastor, and you accept it without searching the scriptures to find if it is true. Note: By searching the scriptures, I mean a full study of histories, Greek/Hebrew words, syntax, etc. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 323 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.232.232 |
xman3: Does your church pass the plate more than once a sermond? The Penticostal's are the only church I've ever witness that did such a thing! Should you choose to ignore this post you will have answered just the same. DOBMAN | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1896 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.164.43.195 |
Dobman, I have been going to a Foursquare Pentecostal Church for over a year, and have visited other Pentecostal Churches. I have only seen them pass the offering plate more than once one time, about 2 months ago. One of the older minister came in late and hadn't realized the plate had already been passed, and he went up to do his part. He asked the worship team to lead in a song for the offering, but they knew that plate had been passed so had already left. My neighbor looked at me and smiled, "Haven't we done this before?" The minister complained to the head minister about the worship team leaving, "What are they doing _? I wanted them to sing for us." The head minister said, "I will talk to him about it later _" The head minister went up to the altar to do the sermon and said, "It's so good to work with nice people." | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3937 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
IF you did not make the statement then i am sorry but you are wrong about every thing that i beleive comes from the mouth of my pastor and that i accept it with out searching the scripture to find out if it is truth or not. i do not read greek nor hebrew so i do not study in those lanquages as far as psoting a biblical answer to your question as to what i said when i said that i did not believe ethat one can have THE BAPTISUM AND LEAVE IT well that is how i feel . i can no more believe that than i can bellieve that a person could say they loved THE LORD JESUS and believe on HIMa and then say they believe in allah as god (well as a god but not as GOD ) but what happened to post 37? | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3938 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
IF you did not make the statement then i am sorry but you are wrong about every thing that i beleive comes from the mouth of my pastor and that i accept it with out searching the scripture to find out if it is truth or not. i do not read greek nor hebrew so i do not study in those lanquages as far as psoting a biblical answer to your question as to what i said when i said that i did not believe ethat one can have THE BAPTISUM AND LEAVE IT well that is how i feel . i can no more believe that than i can bellieve that a person could say they loved THE LORD JESUS and believe on HIMa and then say they believe in allah as god (well as a god but not as GOD ) but what happened to post 37? | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.251.218.162 |
dobman: Like many here, I was involved in a group with a lot of problems and I would no loner associate with them. Since then, for about 4 years, I have not had a church I would call "my church". Pretty much all of the churches I attended took up 1 offering in general. If there was a special speaker from out of town, we would take up another one. Several times per year we also take up offerings for an outreach or something. Right or wrong, that's how it was. I was never part of a church larger than 150 people though, so we weren't real wealthy and didn't even own a building or have a fund or plan. We did have a botched plan once though. A financial fiasco if ever there was one. Kids making 10,000 dollar pledges impossible to keep, but serious enough for some real bondage. Crazy stuff looking back on it. Munny grubbing preachers and financial mismanagers don't get much sympathy from me anymore inside or outside p/c circles. | ||
| easeltine Senior Member Username: easeltine Post Number: 1900 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 66.245.201.60 |
Dobman, Church on the Way has thousands of people going to it, and the offering plates always seem almost empty. I think these people have their tithes and offerings set on automatic withdrawals per month from their checking accounts. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 330 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.232.232 |
MY only dealings were with the Assembly of God. They passed the plate 2 times a sermond. I once did some work for another P/C church. I owned a cabinet shop for 32 years. The minister was of the type that felt he allways had to through in some gibberish every time he spoke with athority. When he was telling me just how he wanted these custom cabinets built, the Deacons were with him. His requests would go something like this. THE LORD HAS DIRECTED ME TO HAVE THE ALTER OVER HERE (AHOLLA SHANDA HAR) The deacons would chime praise the lord. AND FURTHER MORE THE LORD HAS COMMANDED THE OFFERING TABLE SHOULD BE PLACED HERE (YOSHABA SIMBABA) Then one of the deacon with much Enthusiasume said to me the spirit is with in him. I thought to myself holy mackeral has this minister got these guys spoofed or what. After that the minister settled down and began to talk of his up coming vacation. This was shortly after 9/11. He went on to say that instead of 4 weeks he was going to need 5 weeks, because his wife was afraid to fly on the airlines, and the rail roads would be much slower. The deacons chuckeled, and said OH OH we can't upset the little lady. I didn't here if he got the 5th week or not but I'll bet he did. I'm not here to say this goes on in your church, but just the same this is something that has a ring of P/C organizations though and through! p.s. I only wish that what I've said is not ment to harm any. Just enlighten. I was born into the The Assembly of God. DOBMAN! | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.251.218.162 |
His requests would go something like this. THE LORD HAS DIRECTED ME TO HAVE THE ALTER OVER HERE (AHOLLA SHANDA HAR) The deacons would chime praise the lord. AND FURTHER MORE THE LORD HAS COMMANDED THE OFFERING TABLE SHOULD BE PLACED HERE (YOSHABA SIMBABA) Then one of the deacon with much Enthusiasume said to me the spirit is with in him. You know dobman. This is the kind of stuff that "scares" me the most about these men and churches. You preach hard on submission to God and authority and the reality of the annointing of the leaders, and then they sling out the "god told me this" card. I mean what the heck are the people supposed to do? It's so dangerously manipulative, and so protected by all the touch not my annointed crap, that it's almost a trap for the average Christian. Cabinets? So what. Suddenly in church though, its a building fund or something. It might be someones job or marriage they pull it out on seriously affecting lives. Anyway, this could only happen in a church where people beive that God does speak to people like that which normally are p/c churches, so it stand to reason most instances would be there. Another in the list of problems we have that shed a bad light on them. That's what we do here though is empasize the bad. For me, there are also many aspects of p/c churches that are great and far better in my view than non p/ churches I have encounterd. | ||
| matt_hatter New member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
The area of "God told me" and personal prophesies are far more dangerous in P/C churches than "WhoStolaMyHonda". The tongue talking is the middle of one of these 'sermons' or 'revelations' is just another form of extreme manipulation. But it is the commands and the exhortations that come out of these men's mouths that are so disturbing. Xman, you ask what people are supposed to do. "Run Forrest, Run!" As you know, it happened to us in our youth. I can still remember Bob Weiner telling the whole conference that all the pastors had 'heard God' regarding their pledges (shakedowns), and now it was time for the rank and file to follow suit. Many of us young and ignorant 'pastors' were rebuked for not leading the way for our young congregations and told to 're-pledge'. God was not among us. Period. | ||
| mcmstaff78 New member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 21 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
My parish doesn't even pass a "plate". We have offering boxes at both entrances of the knave for people to put in their offerings. About once a quarter our board president will make an announcement after services reminding people to give, but that's it. Our priest says nothing about finances in a service. A lot about almsgiving and helping those in need, but no harangues on "tithing", no manipulative guilt trips, no hanging the promise of "God's blessing" on the amount of your giving. Oh, and we stay well above our operating expenses each month (and we operate a feed the homeless ministry out of our church). It is quite a joy! | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3941 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
neither does our church press or make someone tithe , although most every one in our church tithes we do not make an issue out of it, we do not check to see if they tithe or not. we do require that the deacons tithe, and that the ministers tithe. if they hold office in the church it is felt that they should help support the church. we have a lot of poor people who come to our church and they are NOT forced to give any money if they want to give they give and that is it but again i say that almost all the peole that come to our church tithe and they are blessed for it. ( so is the church) | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1057 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Arron, I understand "what" you believe. The issue is "where" can that be supported in the scriptures? AGAIN, YOU HAVE NOT PROVIDED ANY! Equating a disbelief in tongues, after once believing, with also believing the teachings of Islam is not really a good camparison (I assumed that is what you meant, for the term "Allah" is the Arabic word for God. If you read a bible in Arabic, it will contain the word Allah) | ||
| xman3 Junior Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 76.251.218.162 |
mcm: I find that amazing. Do you guys get extra support from the denomination or anything? What an incredible contrast to what we experienced in our past. I see more faith in that approach than I do in preaching a give to receive kind of faith thing. Imaginge that. Trusting God and the people's own hearts without any pressure. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 354 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.232.232 |
Don't get me wrong or anything. I'm not the one to hold myself up high for any. I am but a simple man at heart. Do I have a God given right to condem, NO! Do I have a righ to plant seed, YES! I could talk untill I'm blue in the face about the day of Penticoste. That day 50 days after Christ reserection the diciples spoke in a language understood by all. Be they Asyrian, African, or which ever. They did not bring 3000 to Christ by speaking gibberish. Now I know you'll start talking of interpretations, but those were for the new preachers of that time. They didn't know Jesus personally like the apostles did. and only the apostles could speak where all understood. These new preachers needed an enterprator when they went to forgien lands. And God told them to only bring one interprator at a time to keep the message fluent. If they were to have several interprators for each and all the languages present, the message would soon be lost. I know many feel this talking in tongues is a gift from God. You have certainly been tought this there is no dought. Let me present something for you to ponder. Lets suppose a young Penticostal group of God loving men went to a far off land. They had saved their own money to go along with their churches funds to rent a building and begin to feed the poor. Shortly there after according their plans they gave a sermon before giving out the food. This went on for some time, but their efforts were in vain for none there spoke English. Then shortly there after they found out one of the regulars could speak English. So he became their interprator. In no time the gatherings could barely be contained in their rented building. The people were now showing great interest, for in their home town the gospel had never before been preached. These young men were all so happy, and rightly so. God was working right before their eye's. The joys were far greater than they had ever dreamed. It even came about that local buisiness men began to attend, and they joined in with donations in food for the kitchen. At this point they were overjoyed to report home to their church that God was working great things. Plans were soon made for their minister to attend. Upon the ministers arrival he decided he should give the sermon. He began his sermon and the interprator did his best. Then he told the interpretor to have an alter call, and for those that wished to give their lifes to Christ, and to be healed to come forward. The minister went through his normal sermon yet none fell over backwards when he touched them on the forehead. For none of them had ever seen such a thing. He prayed with all his might yet none spoke in tongues, for they had never heard such things. In no time he was commanding the holy spirit to descend yet again none responded. Finally he spoken in a loud voice with tongues, yet all the gathered souls were only once again filled with confusion. Anger was upon him. He then announced these people were not of the spirit. Locking the buildings doors never to be opened again. upon their departure one of the young men looked back over his shoulder only to see a young girl cry. can you see where I'm coming from. your tought these gifts. your tought when to fall backwards. you've heard, and these spoken tongues you repeted. over and over, my friends come out of your confusion. DOBMAN! | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3954 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
bear ... perhaps i can put it another way i simply could not be saved if i quit believing in THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISUM. i have seen it and know it and if i turned from it i would be as the dog returning to its vomit or the sow that WAS WASHED to it mud pile again. now if you want to argue about it you will have to find somone else for that is it | ||
| mcmstaff78 New member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 25 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
No, we get no extra support, we provide support. And, yes, I agree it is, in my POV, a far greater stand of faith than anything I experienced as MCM or WoF. As someone else has said of their church, members of the board must be consistent contributers, but not necessarily "big" ones. One member of the board of whom I am acquainted is a regular giver, but by no means one the bigger ones. | ||
| dobman53 Intermediate Member Username: dobman53 Post Number: 369 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.142.232.232 |
Arron: are your imagined gifts greater to you than God himself. This holy ghost baptism is all in your preachers mind. Not Gods Do you think God will not allow thoughs who don't speak gibberish into heaven. Are you now the gate keeper. have you taken Saint Peters post from him, and now ST. Arron shall meet us at the gate. Are your dreams to give us all a good look at you, as we pass by! Arron it's time you slip off from the saddle of your high horse. God does not like those that boste of themselves. I know you've seen this holy ghost of yours in action, but I say to you again, you have only witnessed what others were tought to do. DOB! | ||
| turtle Senior Member Username: turtle Post Number: 1722 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 72.66.229.201 |
Deuteronomy 26:18-19 KJV (18) And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments; (19) And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. Titus 2:14-15 KJV (14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. Titus 3:3-10 KJV (3) For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. (4) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, (5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (8) This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (9) But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. (10) A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 1 Peter 2:6-10 KJV (6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. (7) Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, (8) And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. God has given simple instruction to is people he has called peculiar. He has alos told them about strange doctrines and theologies and geonologies. Is this not a strange thing that most seem attracted to doctrines and things and not to good works and praising God. HMM. Power gone because we fail to look to God, fail to see the cross, neglecting the one that saved us from our sins. (Message edited by turtle on January 06, 2008) | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3959 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
doberman53... nothing (not even you) is higher than GOD and i have never said that the gifts were, THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISUM in not in my mind nor my preachers mind i had KNOWLEDGE OF GOD first BEFORE i recevied THE BAPTISUM OF THE HOLY GHOST (or water either for that matter) yes all who all saved will go to heaven, no i am not the gate keeper and neither is st peter JESUS IS THE DOOR AND THE ONLY WAY INTO HEAVEN, and no my "dreams " are not to have you all take a good look as you pass by, and no it is not time to get off my high horse as i dont ride horses anyway they scare me and no GOD does not like those who boast of themselves so you be careful, and yyes i have seen THE HOLY GHOST IN ACTION and i know enough not to print HIS NAME IN little letters as you do , and no it was not what i wittnessed what ohters do or did. for i had THE BAPTISUM before i came into holiness. i know i am saved, i know i am sanctified, i know i have THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISUM so i dont have to worry. i am heaven bound and will be with JESUS one day. so just leave me to my beleifs for i am happy and dont need an unbeliever to tell me things about GODSWORD THE HOLY BIBLE i read it my self every day all during the day so i know what is there and what isnt may my GOD JEHOVAH, JESUS CHRIST , THE HOLY GHOST bless you | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1058 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Arron, I am not looking to argue. 1. Salvation does not have anything to do with tongues or any other spiritual gift. 2. Once again, you failed to provide any scripture. Therefore, since you can not provide any scipture to support your foundation, it is not anything more than a simple opinion from a simple man. Scripture, scripture, scripture! Your opinion is baseless without scipture. | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3972 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
john 3:16 for GOD so loved the world that HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTON SON THAT WHOSEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.... NO MENTION OF THE GIFTS.. savation come because you believe and the gifts come later because you have believed | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 3973 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
oh yes that went to my dear friend bear may GOD bless you | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1059 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Arron, You are confused! In one sentence you state: perhaps i can put it another way i simply could not be saved if i quit believing in THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISUM. i have seen it and know it and if i turned from it i would be as the dog returning to its vomit or the sow that WAS WASHED to it mud pile again. now if you want to argue about it you will have to find somone else for that is it. Then you post the scripture above. Which do you believe????????????????????? John is the only text that you provided, and it does not have anything to do with the scriptures that I asked you tp post SEVERAL times, concerning your position. What is with you, Arron? | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1986 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.208.111.39 |
I believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking of unknown tongues in prayer and prophecy (with interpreter). This is the living waters Jesus spoke of in John 4 & 7. We are all born into One Spirit and body by one faith of Jesus. By the same Spirit we are born and baptized into Jesus' body, and by the communion of that same Spirit we have our unity and peace in God's love: to be one even as Jesus and the Father are one (John 17:21-22). That one Spirit is the same anointing oil we all have in Christ Jesus, whereby we are all made equal and firstborn in Him (1 John 2:20-27)(Heb 12:23). The baptism of the Spirit is the promise to all believers, which we recieve by seeking and asking in faith (Jerem 19:13)(Luke 11:13)(James 1:6). It is the infilling which we all may have for the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, that we may continue in Jesus' faith and confession truly, haply, and gladly (John 4:23)(Rom 5:5)(Acts 4:31-32)(Heb 1:9). These things are well-known by Scripture and commonly believed among us, and yet many have not faith or fail by fear to seek this gift, that God so earnestly desires to bestow upon ALL His children (Luke 12:32). Why? Not because of the unbelief of some who teach it not or even against it (For He shall be found of them that seek Him). But rather such unbelief and/or failure to seek Him by Jesus' own believers are due in large part to several false and CULTISH teachings about the Holy Ghost from them that do believe in the baptism! | ||
| bro_derrick Senior Member Username: bro_derrick Post Number: 1987 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.208.111.39 |
1) Many teach and present the Holy Ghost baptism as a 'hard' thing to recieve. They portray Him (even as they likewise do salvation itself) as some sort of reward for seeking so hard. They like to say we 'must get' the Holy Ghost. A companion to this false vision of recieving the Holy Ghost's fulfillment is: 'Whatever keeps you from the Holy Ghost will keep you from heaven...' As though we 'must get' the Holy Ghost baptism after salvation, or else! Like so many other things taught by such domineering (so-called) ministers (Such as: "Making the rapture of the church will be the hardest thing you will ever do as a Christian..."), they all point to a Christian experience that is hard, or never quite good enough. For who? Not for God nor Jesus nor even you, the believer, but rather for those CULTISH ministers that like believers to be in their personal camps, their way, for the sake of their personal power and profit. The practical result of such false ministering is an entirely unscriptural and unJesus-like Christianity that is spiritually unfulfilled, constantly up & down in happiness, fearful of what-comes-next, or full of pride in 'attaining' spiritual and ministerial successes: A flock not at rest and filled with self-important rams! Such false 'Leaders' also like to say that Christians should never even be 'satisfied' with what they have: Neither on a physically nor spiritually. Which is true in the sense that we ought never cease to pray and seek His Face (Luke 18:1,21:36,40)(1 Thess 5:17), but untrue in that we ought be some kind of 'go-getter' for the things of God, His Spirit, kingdom, and ministry, that makes us more of a goal-oriented, business-seeking profiteer driven and pushed by a never-satsified desire to do & have more, or else: which is a fearful and proud lust for success, NOT the sought and found love for God! | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: |
