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turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1621
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 9:06 am: | 
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As you know I was healed. Many know my zeal to wanting all to be healed as well. What you do not realize that zeal came because I wanted others to have what I had. And truth everyone truly does. Just bare with me. Whether it is recovery from a simple flu, or from the chicken pox, cancer or any disease. Seldom do we thank God for these miracles, yet it is something God gives to all people and he gives the knowledge for healing through doctors for alot of these ailments. God provide food and clothing, but we see people in the world starving and some that really need new clothing. We wonder. We wonder why. I think the reason being it gives us a time to look up to God and reach out to others. Sickness and healing in general as long been looked as going to the doctor and getting well, instead of looking up to our creator.
Ten lepers all were healed only one thanked God. Paul traveled on his journeys, yet he did not possess God's power to heal at his whim, but had to leave those who helped him behind because of illness. People with disease like leperousy was cast out of city in Biblical times and consider unclean. Yet these people believed in miracles. Miracles happen to draw men and women to God. Yet people still fail to look up. Healing is for God's glory and honor to draw men to him. Just like any of the gifts of healing, tongues, preaching, teaching, helps are to draw men to Christ Jesus, we fail when we think it is our ability or our power.
Not everyone is healed because if they were they would rely on the person and not God. Not all are healed because people would want to possess the power and not know the healer. Though healing is given as a gift to all people whether righteous or sinner it still comes from God. Just like food we eat or clothes we wear it still comes from God. For He is our creator and provides all things. Man might make and plant, but God gives the ability and the increase.
This is my conclusion and those who wish to back with scripture be my guest. I am not posting this to argue but hopefully to help someone out there asking, so they can explore about healing in a productive way. I am not planning to post again, but who knows. I do not come here often. But I think often how I have shared my healing and my zeal for others with lack of understanding. And how only my desire for others to have has been my motivation. No I am not faith healer, but I believe it does take a prayer of faith to continue waiting on God to work miracles in people's lives. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 804
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 9:13 am: |
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Come, Rev Turtle for once read your Bible. For those who may be searching, there are mega dollars available to anyone who can prove they were healed at a pentecostal fake healing service. Some of those reward offers have been available for over eighty years. I highly watching Michael Landon's "Little House on the Prairie," particularly the special episode entitled "The Prophets." Landon thoroughly exposed the fraud of pentecostalism for the nation to see. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1578
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.51
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 12:35 pm: |
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Turtle,
Praise the LORD!
A Mark 16:17 to both of you! |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.51
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 12:37 pm: |
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Im sorry, I forgot to add to that Scripture I gave - If you don't they won't! |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1622
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 1:37 pm: |
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Very true Mark 16:17 |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 807
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 3:32 pm: |
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Mr. easeltine:
I asked previously but did not get an answer. Why half a sentence "A Mark 16:17 to both of you!" Are you ashame of the full sentence?
Come, Rev. Ms. Turtle what is your position on women preachers this week? |
hardbones
Member
Username: hardbones
Post Number: 66
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.48.178.144
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 3:37 pm: |
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If they won't believe what is written on the page of the bible they wouldn't believe even if someone rose from the dead to tell them. In other words even if they saw a healing they wouldn't believe it.
The key with Mark 16 (or James 5 or 1 Peter or Isaiah 53)is it says those who believe!!! They don't believe it so they don't see it. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 809
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 3:54 pm: |
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Mr. Hardbones:
Your post is rather incoherent. Have you, peradventure, ever heard me say I do not believe in biblical tongues? or Divine healing? Any medical doctor can explain divine healing to you. I, personally, agree with the homosexual founder of pentecostalism on biblical tongues. I said biblical tongues, not faked infantile gibberish. Divine healing . . . not faked healing.
The problem is not one of belief, for I believe every single word in God's (w)Holy Inerrant Inspired Word for the Ages. The problem could also be expressed as un-dis-non-believe in the pseudo-christian cult of pentecostalism. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3737
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 5:22 pm: |
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it there is no genuine... there can be no counterfiet |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3738
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 5:27 pm: |
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tatm.. so now u say u believe in tongues. and that u agree with the founder ( who was not the founder JESUS CHRIST WAS ) who was (the founder of pentecostal ) and who you accuse of being a homosexual |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 810
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 6:26 pm: |
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Mr. Arron:
Kindly put your fingers in your ears and read what I said again.
Quoting" "it there is no genuine... there can be no counterfiet."
End quote.
A more profound statement I could not make!! There is a geniue biblical 'tongues' recorded in Acts. Those tongues are known languages. More to the point, tongues were a sign gift to unbelieving jews (kindly refer to Acts). God ceased dealing with the jew in 70 AD with the destruction of Israel. God will not deal with Israel again until the one thousand year reign.
Is there a counterfeit 'tongues'? Absolutlely, your religion is willing to do anything for money. It is called faked infantile gibberish.
I will be happy to re-post the 'vision' on which your religion was founded, and why that 'vision' was never consumated. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3764
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 12:56 pm: |
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the gift of tongues is still today so is healing and all the other gifts they were not just for the jews. i know you dont believe in healing or any of the other gifts for if one has passed then all have passed and we re left woith out anyting to help us.BUT THEY HAVE NOT PASSED THEY ARE STILL HERE TODAY |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1625
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 1:34 pm: |
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No one argues whether the gifts are used to day, but whether it is a form of trickery and deception how pentecostals use them. If I was in a wheelchair and you walked up to me prayed for me and said I was healed and i still can walk is that a lie. Is this deception. If I am a person in a wheel chair would i miss understand. Would it push me out of the church or into the church. Push me away from God or towards God. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 834
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 5:39 pm: |
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Mr. Arron:
The 'sign' gifts to unbelieving jews ceased in 70 AD. But wait, let me rephase one of your statements. If your faked infantile gibberish really is make-believe, did you sin against the Holy Ghost?
Come Rev. Ms. Turtle, what is your position on women preachers this week? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3772
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 7:53 pm: |
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tatm/// yes if i were to fake tongues i would be very close to blaspheming THE HOLY GHOST
AND THE SIGNS DID NOT CEASE IN 7O AD NOR HAVE THEY EVER CEASED |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3773
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 7:57 pm: |
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turtle.. i agree with you to try to deceive is wrong. it has not been nor is it being done in our church so i dont have to worry about that.\are you useing another name now as you were before and trying to see what i will say on either post. are you perhaps mcmstaff? i pray you are not doing that again for that would be deception too |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1628
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 8:41 pm: |
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No Arron, but i know who mccaff is and you know as well who he is if you stop and think about it. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3775
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 9:02 pm: |
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who is it tatm |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3776
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 9:04 pm: |
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turtle i apologise for asking was it you and for thinking that |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3777
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 9:06 pm: |
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i tatm really not that what i have thought |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1629
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 10:45 pm: |
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Maybe or maybe Jason. I wish old jason would come back. He was nice except i just did not agree with him one bit. lol Anyway, maybe You and I will hear each other preach someday. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 835
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 7:42 am: |
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Come, Mr. Arron:
Quoting: "yes if i were to fake tongues i would be very close to blaspheming THE HOLY GHOST."
End quote.
How close? |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1937
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 167.193.134.61
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 9:22 am: |
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Please note that I use only one User ID here. I have no doppelgangers, and don't need any. If my arguments against the tongues movement is similar to others, it is because the truth is pretty transparent once you step outside the tongues movement and examine it for what it really is.
"Tongues", as practiced by modern tongues believers not being the same as scriptural tongues does not necessitate them being "faked" in the sense of a conscious intent to deceive or engage in something one knows to be phoney. I was a sincere practicer of this for more than 20 years. I was sincerely deceived, but I was not "faking". I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to most tongues believers, though I am sure there are those who are merely mimicking others. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3779
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 6:13 pm: |
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if it is not gunuine then you knew it and you were deceiving the people for you were never a believer in the first place |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1943
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 167.193.134.61
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 10:33 am: |
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Arron - have you read anything I've posted regarding William Samarin's research on "tongues"? "Tongues", as practiced by Charismacostals, is a psycho/socio-linguistic activity. IOW, it is an unconsciously learned activity.
The use of the word "genuine" is apparently what confuses you. Genuine tongues is what we see in the scriptures, the Gospel spread/understood in languages other than Hebrew. But a non-genuine "tongues" does not equate to a consciously deceptive practice. It simply means that the "tongues" is not the same as that described in the scriptures.
You simply don't seem to be reading what I am writing. Nothing that I've written implies that I knew my "tongues" were not "genuine" or that I was deliberately deceiving people. I did not and I was not - deliberately, that is. Get a grip. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3782
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 11:03 am: |
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i know and very fully understand what genuine mean mcmstaff. i know my experaince in THE HOLY GHOST BAPTISUM and the evidence of tongues and the speaking thereof has nothing to do with my mind ( which is sound) but is a supernatural experiance from GOD and by the way my GOD IS .. JEHOVAH , THE FAHTER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (WHO EVERONE MUST BELIEVE ON AND IN IN ORDER TO BE SAVED.) AND THE HOLY GHOST. I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT IT IS NOT A "UNCOUNCIOUS" I PRAY I SPELLED THAT RIGHT , attempt nor a councious attempt to try to duplicate anything i "picked up" elsewhere or from some one for i know it is real tongues. yes some are real languages the speaaker has nNOT learned and some are a heavenly lanquage from THE LORD . i have got a "grip" on what you said and i fully realize that anyone who leaves the faith has forsaken what GOD gave them and are no longer to be trusted till they repent and that is what you will have to do for if you ever really believed you woud nver have departed from the faith |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1946
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 167.193.134.61
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 11:31 am: |
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Arron, as far as that goes, we will both stand before God on the General Day of Judgment and then we will know the truth. Until that time, I think the "fruit" the Charismacostal religion is self-evident. You disagree. That is fine. Just don't ascribe to me either motives or assertions that I do not have and have not made. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 970
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.236.150.133
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 11:53 am: |
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Aaron,
Your comment: i fully realize that anyone who leaves the faith has forsaken what GOD gave them and are no longer to be trusted till they repent and that is what you will have to do for if you ever really believed you woud nver have departed from the faith is amazing.
Answer me this, from a scriptural point of view, and I mean chapter and verse, where:
1. Tongues has anything to do with accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour?
2. How ceasing from speaking in tongues means that a person has departed the faith, and that they need to repent.
Your opinion only counts IF you have scripture to back up that belief.
Please answer! |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1631
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 12:45 pm: |
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Arron,
Let me ask you a question. In your opinion out of the nine gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 is the most important gift to have? Then Let me ask one more question why is emphases laid not on that gift but on the gift of tongues or is it? Why do people coming into a church have confusion about gifts of the Spirit? Why do most people lack belief? Answers can be found in I Corinthians 14.
If our emphasises is on tongues then what do we gain. Is that not more of a personal or a group experience in proof that God is with them? Do you have to prove that tongues exist or do you need to prove Christ exist? Think before answering Arron, think hard and long.
I do care Arron, but answers are quite simple we are to preach Christ and His love for us and nothing else. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3784
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 1:22 pm: |
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the reason tongues were looked upon as the most sought after of the gifts is because they well the best way i can put it is, they gave the speaker a time to be reconized in the church they were , you know so set in showing off or at least the corinthina church was. i feel many today are the same way. i dont feel any of the nine gifts are any more important that the rest , however paul said in one place .. i shew you a more excellant way. so we need to know how and when to handle each gift or what ever one we may have properly. many times any more the gifts are not taught in the church, just the tongues part. we had a minster in our church who spoke on the nine and told what they were and GOD reaally blessed. no i do not have to prive that GOD exsist or that any of the gifts exsist. how can we prove GOD except through faith in HIM, there are many other things that i cant prove such as har far away is the sun the science tell us it is so many millons of light years away but i dont know if they could prove that or not. no i dont have to prove that tongues or healings or any of the exsist i just believe and when i see the signs thta they are real such as telling me and me alone something that no one else knew or something on that order then i bleive it . i do know that i love THE LORD and thta is why i serve HIM. yes i feel you care and thank you i know ive gone in a round about way of telling you what yu asked but i dont know how to say anything else about it |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1632
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:14 pm: |
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Greatest gift is love. Love is God. Love being something we receive as well as give. It is the greatest gift and it is not list in chapter twelve in 1 Corinthians but has it's very own chapter. Faith and hope are the next in line. Love is one gift that no matter what will never pass away.
Signs and experience increase our faith. Tongues yes are misused today, but can be real. Yet it is a shock i think still when it is real. Yes Arron, I do agree some of our experiences are quite unbelievable, except we were told by God before it happened. Something could be characteristically reasoned out by anyone, but other things definitely could not be reasoned. People might try and reason them out but can not even our own minds know it is truly God.
No I can not prove God exist anymore then I can prove stars in the sky. It takes the gift of faith to believe. Take love to demonstrate faith. Faith with out hope and works is completely dead. no use to you or me. This really would make a good sermon.
Love being the most lacked sometimes in the Christian world today. Does that mean we lack God presence. No for God is everywhere. We choose to give love back to God and we choose to receive love from God.
If the human race does not give and does not receive they fall apart. We become cannibals. Only gift that God gives that must be one accept as a gift of God is salvation, but if one receives salvation they accept all the other gifts as being from God such as healing, food, clothing, and so forth. This is material gift not a spiritual gift, though salvation is spiritual and not just phyaical. Without the recognization of God no one can accept salvation. With knowledge of God one believes in miracles not just luck. Without salvation one understands there are consequences to sin, unless you out right do not believe. Someone needs to preach this and can do so be my guest. I think I will stop there for now. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 2:19 pm: |
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I was afraid I run out of room.
Salvation is our hope. It is found in Christ Jesus. The hope given to us by the love of God to all mankind. Not just to a select few. It is the gift that only God could give. For we were dead in our sins. Our consequences for sin in the garden. yet God made a way for us. That is through Jesus Christ our Lord. No other name do I need to know. Know other way I need to know. For Christ is salvation for all mankind. Women and men both need Christ.
The gift is there if anyone wants to receive Christ He is there willing and waiting. WE all have sinned and fallen short, including turtle. Without God grace I am lost and so is the world.
Arron I know you know Jesus but many do not. It is there decision today. There decision to make we can only tell the story of Jesus and His love. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3786
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:12 pm: |
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yes i know about all those gifts and savation is the greatest gift a sinner can receive then after that sancification , then the baptisum of THE HOLY GHOST but salvation is the most important for if you dont have salvation you dont have anything from GOD YET |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 855
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:12 pm: |
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Rev. Ms. Turtle:
Quoting: "Without the recognization of God no one can accept salvation."
End quote.
Please show me that in scripture. Oh! Please underline the word "accept."
Quoting: "The hope given to us by the love of God to all mankind."
End quote.
Please show me that in scripture.
Quoting: "For Christ is salvation for all mankind."
End quote.
Please show me that in scripture.
Quoting: "It is there decision today."
End quote.
You know the drill. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1634
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 9:17 pm: |
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Arron,
Do you not believe God gives life? Do you believe he made everything. Well then He gave you life, He gave you breath, he gave you food and clothing. He is the one in charge, but he gives the choice of salvation. Either to accept or believe. Also read the story of Joseph Arron when the famine came God feed both the egyptians and the Israelites(joseph family) by using joseph to interpet a dream. God feed the people provide for those that did not know him. Wake up read the first paragaph in this discussion please.
TATM
The word accept is a Christian word nto necessarily a biblical word, but one close to it would be receive. And let me pull out a few verse where man has to receive salvation to be saved. Just like you receive a gift. You must take or accept it to get it. Otherwise it will remain where it is laid.
John 1:10-18 KJV
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
(12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
(16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
(17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(18) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:33 KJV
(33) He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
John 3:36 KJV
(36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:17-18 KJV
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. |
hardbones
Member
Username: hardbones
Post Number: 73
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 70.53.16.88
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 11:16 pm: |
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Its interesting to see the comments on accept vs receive. I've always believed that. You receive Christ ... He's always acceptable |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1613
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 66.245.201.183
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 2:05 am: |
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The Sermon tonight was on rejoicing.
Rejoice in the LORD always!
Praise the LORD when we have an opportunity to write out passages from the Word of God!
What a wonderful blessing, we can't go wrong with that. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 861
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 7:55 am: |
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Rev. Ms. Turtle:
Quoting: "The word accept is a Christian word nto necessarily a biblical word, but one close to it would be receive."
End quote.
I receive a tax bill every January. That does not mean I 'accept' it. Sorry, would you like to try again? OH! By the by, faked infantile gibberish is a Christian phase, do you 'accept' it?
John chapter 1 is more correctly divided thusly:
1. John 1:1 - 5
2. John 1:6 - 14
3. John 1:15 - 18
4. John 1:19 - 28
5. John 1:29 - 36
6. John 1:37 - 42
7. John 1:43 - 51
Try reading paragraphs in their correct construction. John 1 does not support your contention, again sorry.
Quoting: "Just like you receive a gift. You must take or accept it to get it."
End quote.
That is not true either. Your logic is as flawed as your multiple positions on women preachers. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1619
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:39 pm: |
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Praise the Lord Turtle,
We are all looking at John 1 together - What a great Chapter!
You know from my other posts on the Trinity that this is one of my favorite chapters in Scripture! |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1636
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 3:43 pm: |
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Actually on my website is a complete Bible study, but because it is one of my first i do not feel it is my best written. Truth be Gospel of John really needs to be examined by every new and old Christian. It is a great starting point for all new Christians though. Bible study was called love lessons, which might of been mor appropiate for I John then Gospel of John, But I think truly Godpel of John explains the Love God have for us. Now I am working on a Bible study called Why Miracles Happen? It starts officially next week, but truth I feel unprepared and really need to study, so if you do not see you know where I be.
ATAM
REad of all of John take time to study it in it's entirety. The message you seek in through that entire gospel of John. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 864
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 4:40 pm: |
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Come Rev. Ms. Turtle:
Please answer my question, if you can. By the by, I forgot to mention "accept" is a biblical word. Pick up a good Strong's, it is used several times. I have read all of John, and Acts, and Mark, and Jude and Judges and . . . well those familiar with the Bible know what I mean. |
easeltine
Senior Member
Username: easeltine
Post Number: 1630
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 72.164.43.195
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 8:24 pm: |
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An interesting person having healing ministry is Smith Wigglesworth. The books about his ministry are really worth reading.
If one wants to read about a fine man of God with the Gift of Healings, and the Gift of Miracles be sure and do a Google search on him. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 883
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 9:23 pm: |
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Smith Wigglesworth? Give-me-a-break. Smith Wigglesworth was a bigger crock or quack than Peter Popoff. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3798
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 11:44 pm: |
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so now we have the word of a grackpot tatm to tell us who is and who isnt to be relied on and acorrding to him ..nobody is to be relied on only his "books " that he has so educated himself in |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3799
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 11:45 pm: |
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so now we have the word of a grackpot tatm to tell us who is and who isnt to be relied on and acorrding to him ..nobody is to be relied on only his "books " that he has so educated himself in |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 884
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 7:17 am: |
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Mr. Arron:
Praise God!! Its a miracle!! You finally got the picture. The only book you need to rely on is the same book I rely on, God's (w)Holy Inspired Inerrant Word for the Ages. Now tell me when are you going to denounce your religion's crapology? |
mcmstaff78
Senior Member
Username: mcmstaff78
Post Number: 1991
Registered: 7-2006
Posted From: 24.99.130.74
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 9:22 am: |
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t(not)atm - when are you going to tell all of us:
1) What religious organization you're affiliate with?
2) What group has provided your ministerial credentials?
3) Where (what school) did you get your doctorate? |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1637
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:15 am: |
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I got to put my two sense in. Theology is good to study only for one reason,so you know what you personally believe not what man's interpetation of the word is. To see the different sides really helps you either come to your own conclusion or establish the conclusion you already have.
If we do not study we can not know what God says. If not challenged we can not know what we believe. Cults happen because people refuse to look at the word themselves to gain understanding. For the Word is Life. Jesus is the Word.
Looking at all these faith healers the testimony is still the same, but it bothers me that so many look to the minister and that Messiah for the answers. We all have ministers we look up to and highly esteem, but truth be Christ is who needs to be lifted up.
When people say God really hears your prayers will you pray for me, it really gets on a true mihister of God's nerves. We all have the same ability to ask and receive. God is King of Kings and Lord of Lords to all that will worship Him.
John 3:14 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1638
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:17 am: |
|
I got to put my two sense in. Theology is good to study only for one reason,so you know what you personally believe not what man's interpetation of the word is. To see the different sides really helps you either come to your own conclusion or establish the conclusion you already have.
If we do not study we can not know what God says. If not challenged we can not know what we believe. Cults happen because people refuse to look at the word themselves to gain understanding. For the Word is Life. Jesus is the Word.
Looking at all these faith healers the testimony is still the same, but it bothers me that so many look to the minister and that Messiah for the answers. We all have ministers we look up to and highly esteem, but truth be Christ is who needs to be lifted up.
When people say God really hears your prayers will you pray for me, it really gets on a true mihister of God's nerves. We all have the same ability to ask and receive. God is King of Kings and Lord of Lords to all that will worship Him.
John 3:14 KJV
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
A minister once said to me until you been in the wilderness forty years you will not understand. I have not been in the world forty years but I think I get the gest of what she said. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3804
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 1:15 pm: |
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hey turtle how are you and merry CHRISTmas |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3805
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 1:17 pm: |
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hey turtle how are you and merry CHRISTmas |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 779
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.154.189
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 3:13 pm: |
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Now tell me when are you going to denounce your religion's crapology?
I think you'll find someone denouncing "their religions crapology" when definitive proof that it is crapology is presented. It's all well and fine to bring up a bunch of stuff that has little if anything to do with why we pentacostals, if one must use that term, believe as we do, but about 95% of what you present is irrelevant to any poster here.
If we throw the parnum stuff out, and stop talking about Bibles and things that are sketchy versions, when it comes right down to it, there has been little actual Bible discussion here. Every question and comment I've made on healing, tongues, or any other thing has gone unanswered or refuted. I keep it simple and relevant to me, and aside from some stuff MCM has presented, nothing is even the slightest bit convincing.
I ask you this tatm. Does God heal today? Simple question to start with. It requires a simple answer. I say He does, and I will support it with at least 10 scriptures if you say no. If you say yes, which is the correct answer, then why argue? If you say no, then you will be buried with scripture. Tongues is a much more difficult topic than healing as far as Bible goes, if not in it's practice.
I'm no trs when it comes to posting a litany of Bible verses, but they are there when it becomes necessarry, and frankly, trs has proven beyond any doubt as to what the bible has to say about healing. Why it doesn't pan out in real life all the time is an ongoing struggle or mystery to me, but it's not mysterious what scripture says about healing.
Wiggelsworth a crackpot? When I compare your "ministry" to his, I wonder who the crackpot really is. Not really. I already know. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1639
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 4:49 pm: |
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Mery Christmas Arron,
xman3:
Have you ever thought of looking for the purpose of all these things. I am talking aobu the gifts. Preaching, tongues, healing, etc....
Purpose One and most important to draw all men to Jesus. If we keep looking at the signs and wonders we miss God. God desire to draw all people to him. When you think on these lines we wonder why God does not do even bigger bangs and trumpets. Toot horns, blow whistles and large thunder bolts over head. Main reason people want to look for the show instead of the answer. And even minister get caught up in the show instead of God. They fall, looking for the wonders of God instead of God. Miracles are given to glorify God not to glorify man. Plain and simple. They demonstrate God's authority over things as well as show the impossible. We expect to get well from the flu and from a cold, but we do not believe necessarily we be healed of a terminal illness, blindness, diabetes and so forth and when this happens it shows us who God is. Even if people refuse to believe. Doctors can compete with miracles in the church but it does not change the fact that God made doctors and gave them knowledge.
Miracles if they are not drawing people to God then I have to wonder what is going on. Is it faked is it real. What is going on. No one can explain why some are not healed, but everyone needs to know the one that heals will give them enough grace to see them through. And unfortunately few ministers seem to be preaching this very thought especially among health and wealthers. The ministers might know it but the people often do not. So they see those that are not healed and claim it is fake. Personally I can not blame them. The church world needs to be better at explain certain known facts about God though we do not know all about God. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 783
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.154.189
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:54 pm: |
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Hello turtle,
You are very right. It's easy to get caught up in the seeking, and the doctrines, and theology of this stuff and seemingly forget about Jesus. I spend a lot of time pondering that, and I appreciate a reminder here how important it is.
I can't disagree with what you said really, but I will merely add this. When someone is sick, they need healing. Christians who already know and love Jesus just plain need to be healed. Those who don't know him need to be healed. I mean, ultimately perhaps the most important thing is Jesus, but practically speaking healing is what it is, and people need that.
As for the specifics on healing doctrine and what ministers are saying these days we seem to be in agreement. It seems the built in dilemna is that if they preach too much along the lines of grace to cope with it should there be no miracle, it undermines the message of unflinching faith and sadly casts some doubt on the idea that one can perhaps, better receive their healing if they'll just send them some moolah. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1641
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 11:03 pm: |
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You actually add the thoughts to my post that i had been thinking much later after posting, but maybe in this way ministers using what they think is their ability to abuse the Holy Spirit to gain moolah. In other words send me two thousand dollars and i pray you be healed and send you a prayer cloth. Yikes. Dangerous. God can not be used, without consequences. Moses lifted the rod to many times and hit the rock. Water came forth but he got in trouble over it. God corrected Him.
You no doubt know it does not take but a mustard seed of faith and prayer to see healing, but at the same time sometimes what we want is not what we get. Sometimes the healing comes spiritually rather then physically. Often i wonder if we fail to hear what God is speaking to our hearts about. God grace is sufficient, but we are to obey James 5 and pray for the sick. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 735
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 12:41 am: |
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I would just like to say that we should never minimize the importance of the truth, for it is what the early Christians died for. On the other hand, the truth is to bring us to the person, Christ Himself, because Christ is the truth. When we enjoy the Christ who is revealed in the written word, it should usher us into a deep and intimate fellowship with Him so that we may minister Him in all His riches to others. It is the rich Christ enjoyed by us and ministered to others that brings the rivival of spirit and renewal of mind so that all the Lord's lovers may run after Him. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 894
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 2:24 pm: |
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Rev. Ms. Turtle:
Quoting: "You no doubt know it does not take but a mustard seed of faith and prayer to see healing, . . . "
End quote.
Come Rev., which children's hospital will you be emptying? |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3808
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 3:26 pm: |
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tatm when u tell me what church you belong to what doctorate you hold who gave it and why u always down pentecostals and NO OTHER RELIGION , then perhaps i will answer you about my beliefs in THE TRUE GOD OF THE INIVERSE JEHOVAH , JESUS CHRIST HIS SON AND THE HOLY GHOST |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3809
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 3:28 pm: |
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tatm when u tell me what church you belong to what doctorate you hold who gave it and why u always down pentecostals and NO OTHER RELIGION , then perhaps i will answer you about my beliefs in THE TRUE GOD OF THE INIVERSE JEHOVAH , JESUS CHRIST HIS SON AND THE HOLY GHOST |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3810
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 3:31 pm: |
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tatm when u tell me what church you belong to what doctorate you hold who gave it and why u always down pentecostals and NO OTHER RELIGION , then perhaps i will answer you about my beliefs in THE TRUE GOD OF THE INIVERSE JEHOVAH , JESUS CHRIST HIS SON AND THE HOLY GHOST |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 981
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.236.150.133
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 7:19 pm: |
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I had a very good friend, a fellow pastor, who battled cancer for 2 years. His faith was that of many mustard seeds.
Well, he died in January.
Many people were confused over his death, for he, and others, were earnestly praying for a healing.
I watched hin get worse week by week, after two remissions, yet his faith was very strong.
Guess what, cancer kills people. In my world, that does not take away from the goodness of God.
Now,if he was 80, I doubt many would have been confused. He was 36 with a wife and two kids.
Conclusion: God still is in control. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1642
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 9:13 pm: |
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REad my whole statement before jumping to conclusions about what I said.
Bear,
Your friend is in no more pain or sorrow if he knows Jesus. That is the best way to be healed to be with Jesus.
The one that mentioned children's hosptial do you not believe when a child passes they do not go to heaven.
Healing comes in many forms the best type of ehaling is spiritual. We do not always get physical or emotional healing, but when we do not God's grace is suffient. He desires to carry us through life struggles not always removing all our problems. Like when i got hit by the train, God did not remove it i still had to deal with the pain and hurt for fourteen years.
(Message edited by turtle on December 02, 2007) |
ultimate1
Advanced Member
Username: ultimate1
Post Number: 543
Registered: 1-2006
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 9:14 pm: |
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In anything You don't judge God by people or any circumstances, only by Gods word.
It is always Gods will to see all people saved. Not all accept salvation.
The same is true as it is always Gods will to see all people healed. Jesus exampled that when he healed them all. But for many reasons not all receive it.
It is not always possible to receive due to the many hindrances we stop the flow of Gods power in our life.
People are not perfect.
No ones faith is perfect.
There are dozens of hindrances to healing and many combinations involved evidenced in the Bible.
EVEN JESUS was hindered and COULD NOT HEAL because of unbelief.
Even the disciples were hindered in healing and Jesus said it was because of their unbelief not a lack of faith.
People miss God.
Many sincere nice Christian people with good intentions, belief and faith miss God.
Only the Holy Spirit along with His help in the scriptures can help you understand what you need or are missing to open the flow and stop the short circuit.
Faith appropriates what is already in Gods grace.
Faith can be hindered by unbelief, doubt, sin etc. Jesus said so. No one does everything perfectly. No one understands perfectly.
That is why there is so much inconsistency among people. They have small amounts of understanding while the Holy Spirit and the mind of Christ in their sprit knows all things.
"it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things yet he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. 1Cor2:16 |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1643
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 4:22 am: |
|
Good come back ultimate1. In Luke I believe it is chapter eight or it is in Mark. Have to look. But Jesus healed a man that was blind in two stages and not one. Miracles healings are not always one stop trip. Miracles in the Bible seem to do several things, It showed God's authority and power, but often teaches us more then just that in each case. It teaches us about faith.
The problem we see with " tv preachers" is the fact many do not speak of simplicity of faith and belief. Or if they do it is about sending them money. Kind of like the story of Naaman, Elisha did not want money but the servant went and got money anyway and paid the price for it. He missed what healing was about. Not profit or gain.
Stories concerning Paul and his help. Paul's help always seemed to get sick of something. And there were times Paul had to leave his help behind. Paul was a man of faith. He seen devils flee, and people healed, yet he faced being beaten and stoned. People fail to see the truth that not all are healed not all receive, some do suffer, but thank God when we go through them gates of peril we no longer have to hurt, no longer have sorrow, but even death must come in God's timing not ours.
(Message edited by turtle on December 03, 2007) |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 792
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 75.14.46.22
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 3:44 am: |
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That's right about Paul turtle. The WoF answer is that yes these things happened, but God delivered him out of all of them so faith won out in the end. I agree with that, but when one considers that some of these things took years and entailed a lot of physical and emotional suffering, and doesn't package them up as a simple faith issue, one can perhaps begin to see that there are other considerations involved besides simple faith and miracles etc...
At this point, I'm still leaning towards the apostle Paul in a faith battle between him and TRS. TRS sounds like she's a bit more succesful so far though, because when one considers Jesus couldn't heal an entire area because of unbelief, her 80% rate rivals even His, though He did have a few areas where He healed them all to offset His limitations. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1644
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:05 am: |
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Some illness is only because of sin, not just of a personal sin, but it can be because of global sin. God healed nations when they would repent and yet he also healed individual when repentance came. But not all illness is because of sin. Think of the man born blind in John 9. It was clearly so God could be glorified.
The lepers outside the city when enemy had laid seige would never had discovered the enemy was gone if they been inside the city. Some will think that is nuts. But God's purpose and will for a person can be as simple as that. Kind of the theory without my sickness i could never of learned or done this. Making lemons into lemonade kind of thing in our thinking. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3820
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:52 am: |
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thank turtle for the very good saying about healing |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1656
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 10:34 pm: |
|
I think I get atam point and this is scary. People will use people because they had a miracle to claim that a place is a miracle place. The truth is that is a lie straight from hell. I just happen to heal in a church. God just happened to use that location in my life. Why because i never would of walked back into church after what I experienced. It took me almost year to heal from a broken leg. My husband back is still hurt. He still has knee trouble. Does that mean God does not love us, no. The fact is simple there is a purpose for each and every healing and healing can take place right in your living room and right in the city park or on the street as well as in a church. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1657
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 10:37 pm: |
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WE are not to seek a place or the next sighting of the Holy Mary, but we are to seek Jesus. That is what my site is about a relationship with Jesus. Not the next revival that alot of mockery of God takes place. People have gone to the altar and no healing has taken place. We got people with cancer and no healing. WE got people with blindness and they do not see. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3843
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.119.3
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 12:54 am: |
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i never got a vision or a aperation of mary and if i did i would kno it was false and of satan. JESUS is the one i will see and if i have a vision that doesnt line up with GODS WORD i know it is not of GOD |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1659
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Sunday, December 09, 2007 - 7:53 am: |
|
You know Arron, many do not understand that. Think about all these great revivals that have taken place. Some got saved, some did not and many false reports came out because of mockery that took place along the real story of the revival. The true revival took place in the hearts of the people when they repented and came to know Christ. |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1718
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 11:02 pm: |
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Arron,
Every great revival has false manifestations as well as true. The way you know the difference is the effect it has on individuals and their lives. Did they grow in Christ is the key. Growing in Christ forward. In the church I attend I have seen spiritual growth. It is slow but it is steady. I am not talking about more coming in necessarily but things happening outwardly. |
saygoodnightgracie
Junior Member
Username: saygoodnightgracie
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 96.228.213.249
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 5:13 am: |
|
"though He did have a few areas where He healed them all to offset His limitations."
Acts 10:54, I believe. Of course, the word "all" is out of context there, I'm sure... |
turtle
Senior Member
Username: turtle
Post Number: 1719
Registered: 9-2005
Posted From: 72.66.229.201
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 8:34 am: |
|
Gracie,
Actually there is no Acts 10:54. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3950
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.121.123
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 2:43 pm: |
|
turtle... i am sure that there were false reports as wellas people who did not really get saved but they are being saved in our church too and that is what we concentrate on and not just the gifts but if the gifts work in our church we do not quench them but let them flow through us. i PRAISE GOD FOR THIS.... SOUL WINNING ALWAYS COMES FIRST. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3951
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.85.121.123
| | Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 2:45 pm: |
|
turtle... i am sure that there were false reports as wellas people who did not really get saved but they are being saved in our church too and that is what we concentrate on and not just the gifts but if the gifts work in our church we do not quench them but let them flow through us. i PRAISE GOD FOR THIS.... SOUL WINNING ALWAYS COMES FIRST. |