| Author | Message | ||
     ultimate1 Advanced Member Username: ultimate1 Post Number: 521 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
VIEW THE CREFLO DOLLAR LETTER FROM THE UNITED STATES SENATE FOR HIS FINANCIAL RECORDS Click the link below and it will take you to the origianal official letter that Senator Grassley sent to Creflo and Taffi Dollar requesting the intial documents. Read all of it. You will find a host of financial activities that both Dollar does to set up to hide money and launder offering money to themselves. http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/files/2007_11_05_creflo_and_taffi_dollar.pdf "I and my ministry are open books" Creflo quotes to natioanl news while through all the years he has NEVER given anyone a financial statement even his own congregation. He also condones the stupid purchases like his multimillion dollar house $150,000 plus Rolls Royce, Rolex wathces, multimillion dollar jets that cost $5,000 an hour to fly and $6,000 suits. He claims to pray over all the prayer requests that come in while employees testify that is not true. He never even sees the envelopes that come in or the prayer requests that come with them just the money. Two major things but not limited to just these two things, that Creflo and Taffi Dollar are doing that is blatantly illegal. 1.They are taking more than is standard and allowed for not for profit organizations offering money and using it for their personal and luxury use EXTREMELY overpaid way beyond the standards of other ministry people. They are using offering money for non ministry exhorbitant luxuries etc. 2. Second they are exchanging money (washing money) back and forth between not for profits, their friends(Kenneth Copeland, etc.) and their own dummy companies. The IRS has over 1.5 million not for profits with over 30,000 new ones every year. They simply have not had the man power to go after these people without being specifically directed to investigate. That is the only reason these evil bad stewards have been able to get this far. http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/files/2007_11_05_creflo_and_taffi_dollar.pdf | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 290 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.25.13 |
My FAVORITE part of the letter (which is about the same for each ministry) is #5 under "Executive Compensation" where it asks for their credit card statements. That would be interesting. However, the error in your statement, Ultimate 1, is "Second they are exchanging money (washing money) back and forth between not for profits, their friends(Kenneth Copeland, etc.) and their own dummy companies." Also your statement that what they are doing is "blatantly illegal" is not accurate--if it was, they would have been charged years ago. The letter doesn't say that at all. Remember, this is an INVESTIGATION and the gov't is simply asking for facts/explanation. And as I have posted before, I seriously doubt that any of these ministries/organizations have done anything illegal. They have many lawyers, etc and because they are so visible, it would be "dumb" to do anything like they are being accused of. I could be wrong, but I doubt if anything will come of this. We shall see come Dec when all the responses are due. | ||
| ultimate1 Advanced Member Username: ultimate1 Post Number: 523 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Ask "Enron" if their lawyers and Arthur Anderson Accounting saved them. The things the Dollars, the Copelands and the other "bling" preachers are doing is "Blatantly illegal" (meaning clearly illegal violating the IRS tax laws). It is illegal according all the IRS laws governing not for profit 501C3 organizations. Personal profit with not for profit is prohibited by the IRS tax law as is overcompensation. The IRS has not had enough manpower to even come close to looking into how all these bling preachers spend the money. Senator Grassley had to look at ENRON's financials and is the one who found the problems. The IRS had overlooked it. They were too overwhelmed to do the accounting needed. Look at how many not for profits there are and more every year. The IRS has over 1.5 million not for profits with over 30,000 new ones every year. They simply have not had the man power to go after these people without being specifically directed to investigate. That is the only reason these evil bad stewards have been able to get this far for so long. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1002 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I could be wrong, but I doubt if anything will come of this. Like you said, these ministries have lawyers and accountants on staff who are probably making sure that they don't actually break any laws. But, while they may be obeying the letter of the law, they may be guilty of ignoring the spirit of the law or what was intended by those who wrote the law, and are thereby cheating the government out of tax money ... which after all, is probably the real reason for this investigation. I think it's more likely that the investigation will result in changes to current tax laws for non-profit organizations. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1386 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Creflo Dollar as the pastor of World Changers Church International of College Park, Georgia. Presumably he chose that name himself, completely free of fear that it would be soon be better known as Money Changers Church International by the 30,000 members who weekly enrich its coffers and make it possible for Creflo to maintain the two jets—one Gulfstream 3 and one Lear—that he uses so as he states it to "not have to hang out with all the rif raff low life people flying commercial airlines." Creflo's wife Taffi Dollar is responsible for the household budget at the $3 million Dollar mansion in Atlanta, and the more modest $2.44 million Dollar condo overlooking Central Park in Manhattan. Asked about the Dollar dollars by CBS News yesterday, Dollar said it was untrue that he had two Rolls-Royces (we'd actually heard it was two Rolls-Royces and one Humvee, but who's keeping track?)—that he only had one Rolls and it was given to him by his congregation as a surprise. He also said he did not give $500,000 of church funds to fellow preacher Kenneth Copeland on the occasion of Copeland's 40th wedding anniversary—although he did not say how much he did give—so we want to be very careful when we say that the annual budget for Dollar's operation, his overhead dollars, is about $80 million. (Note to Creflo: Get back to us if we're a little off on that number.) On second thought get back to the Senator since he will be the first person you ever have given any financial statement accounting to. The interesting aspect of this story, however, is that so many of these guys funnel money back to Copeland in so many ways that it almost looks like a pyramid scheme. | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 953 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
People who defend these ministers, such as krems, who believes that the government should not investigate them, are missing one important fact: Ministries are tax-exempt. When funds have the apperance of being mishandled in a tax-exempt organization, the government has every right to ask questions. This is not a matter of "the church should do their job, and clean house". The government should be involved. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 772 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Hello Mr. Bear: I see the current letter/situation as nothing more than religious persecution. The world's poorest people support luxury vacation villas, mega-jets and high dollar cars for the pope's use. Why wasn't he included in the campaign? Jerry Falwell spoke out again Clinton during his first election. Clinton ordered Falwell persecuted by the IRS. It cost Falwell millions in lawyers fees to prove he had not broke the law. Was it worth it? To who? | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1004 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
The current letter/situation has nothing to do with religious persecution ... it's a legal/tax issue. As bear said, the government has every right to ask questions. It's their job to make sure the law is obeyed and taxes are paid. Are there other issues that should be dealt with within the church ... absolutely. As far as why the US government isn't investigating the pope ... I'm guessing the fact that the pope is not under their jurisdiction has a lot to do with that. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.109.61 |
Marta: It is the job of the IRS to make sure the law is obeyed and taxes are paid. It is NOT the task of Sen. Grassley and his Senate committee. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 292 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.23.74.36 |
Presidental hopeful Mike Huckabee is going to be on the Copeland's TV program! Here is the information--and note the topics to be discussed! (And I wonder if Huckabee will get some flack??) -- Tune in to see a special Believer’s Voice of Victory broadcast series with Kenneth Copeland and his guest, Governor Mike Huckabee, Sunday, November 25 through Friday, November 30. Get a unique look at their life experiences as they explore two foundational teachings: The Need for Character and Integrity and The Integrity of Character. These powerful messages will encourage you to make godly, Word-based decisions in every area of your life. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1005 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
jbkrems, The Senate Finance Committee has jurisdiction over the activities of numerous agencies and offices ... including Department of the Treasury - Internal Revenue Service. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 776 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). marta: Any chance you know the meaning of blind justice? The Roman church is a recognized 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation, sorry. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1006 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
M(r)(s) the_apostolic_truth_ministries, Do you know the meaning of blind prejudice? The US does not have jurisdiction over what happens in other countries. If the Catholic church in the US is not following the law, then they can be investigated by the government the same as any other organization. By the way, if changes in the tax law result from the investigation, it's likely that ALL non-profit organizations will be effected ... even the Roman Catholic church. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 777 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). marta: Quoting: "Do you know the meaning of blind prejudice?" End quote. Yes. "But, while they may be obeying the letter of the law, they may be guilty of ignoring the spirit of the law or what was intended by those who wrote the law, and are thereby cheating the government out of tax money ... which after all, is probably the real reason for this investigation." You are. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.15 |
Marta: I know. But the purpose of legislative oversight is for the Senate Finance Committee to oversee the activities of the IRS --- not churches and ministries. In other words, I believe that Sen. Grasley and the Senate Finance Committee are over-stepping their legislative bounds. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 295 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.23.71.146 |
M(r)(s) the_apostolic_truth_ministries stated "Jerry Falwell spoke out against Clinton during his first election. Clinton ordered Falwell persecuted by the IRS." -- Actually, it was a conservative political organization with ties to the Rev. Jerry Falwell, who paid more than $200,000 to individuals to make damaging allegations about President Clinton's personal conduct. The result was the video "The Clinton Chronicles." The payments and the allegations -- (paid out over a three-year period, between l994 and l996) -- some of which were either fabricated or grossly exaggerated -- were part of a covert and sophisticated political propaganda effort to influence public opinion against President Clinton. The content of the film has largely been discredited and debunked as containing deliberate bias, circumstantial evidence, and coincidence. The Clintons NEVER "ordered Falwell persecuted by the IRS." He brought that on himself in 1997 when he announced a plan to urge fundamentalist churches to intervene in partisan politics and he dropped the plan after being reported to the IRS by Americans United. There was no "persecution" by the IRS--a letter was sent to Falwell's organization asking if his intent was accurate and then he discarded the idea. If you want to post your opinion, that's what this forum is for. But it is also called FACTnet, so if you're going to make allegations, then please be sure they are FACTS and provide the sources. All of the above is easily documented on various sites by typing in clinton, IRS, Falwell. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1007 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
M(r)(s).the_apostolic_truth_ministries, Your logic escapes me ... why don't you just continue this discussion with jbkrems and trsrinheaven? You all obviously exist on a much higher level of enlightenment than me. (Message edited by marta on November 21, 2007) | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 956 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
jbkrems, The Senate commitee also investigates "all" non-profit organizations when concern arises over misuse of funds. As a former Pastor, I can tell you that there are a lot of financial perks for ministers and ministries; tax-exemption. If funds are not used properly, and tax's are being avoided, that is a crime; period. I used to receive a housing allowance on the first of each month, tax free. The standard amount of a housing allowance is 40% of your monthly income, but can be adjusted up if the need arises. I had to keep strict records in order to account for the monies being spent on housing. If I could not provide records for what I spent, or if my housing expenses did not exceed the monies received, I had to pay taxes. I also had a company car. All of my maint., gas, etc, was paid for by the church. I had to keep records of miles traveled for business and personal use. I had a church issued credit card. I had to submit a monthly report detailing all expenses and their purpose. I know what it is like to work in a mega-church setting. I also know the traps and loopholes for spending money, although I kept my nose clean. I have known other fellow pastors who pushed the line on spending. Bottom line is this: Any organization that is exempt from paying taxes is monitored by the US government, and rightly so. | ||
| ultimate1 Advanced Member Username: ultimate1 Post Number: 526 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
There should be at least as much jail time for all of them as Martha Stewart got for lying to the SEC. Copeland, Crelo Dollar both state how they are "open books" and "operate openly"What horse manure. They more than pushed the legal line on personal profiting and spending of offering money, not for profit offering money dollars. They went way beyond the law and all reasonable standards that the law demands. Considering the huge issues at stake here these were not just any letters sent by the United States Finace Committee which overseers the IRS. These were very specific letters. These letters had the kind of specific questions that make you cringe when you get them. Imagine if you got a letter from Congress saying, “Do you have a safe full of Gold Krugerrands and an AK-47 with serial number 43789467 stowed behind a toolbox in your garage? Please answer yes or no.” They were those kind of questions. They were the kind of questions that give you the impression that the Congressmen asking them already know the answer and much more. Hence the phone calls they made to all their the lawyers. We’ll see how this plays out. Most will choose to hide as their behavior has been for years aand decide not to comply at all,(hoping in denial that it will go away) and then the committee will move in the direction of subpoenas. That will throw everything into a political debate leading up to the 2008 elections, with Republicans asking, “Will this alienate evangelicals?” and Democrats, who actually run the Finance Committee, asking, “Are the Republicans bringing this up to make it look like we hate religion?” That will at least be the occasion for delays, but eventually hearings will be held, the head of the IRS will get pressure, and proper lawsuits will be filed. Copeland claims on his website: "We practice fiscal responsibility. As good stewards of what God places in our hands, we are accountable......We invite you to visit our Web site, www.kcm.org/about/financial/index.php, to view our financial accountability statement and examine how your money is distributed. We operate openly and legally. . . ." Neither Copeland, Creflo Dollar nor any of the other people sent letters except Joyce Meyer ever gives anyone a financial statement. Copeland calls this open???? "ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever" but "The pleasures of ignorance seem as great in their way as the pleasures of knowledge." "Sin is fun for a season" but "the wages of sin is death" | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 783 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
You are absolutely right, M(r)(s). bachman. If one is searching for the truth, stay away from left-wing websites. Personally, I used experience. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.15.10 |
Bear: The key phrase in your post is "when concern arises over misuse of funds." There should be NO concern here. Ole Anthony, the real protagonist, is an alarmist, not one who has genuine concern. I agree that if the taxes are not being properly collected, that is a crime, but it is the responsibility of the IRS to prosecute such crimes. Also, we have a presumption in this country of innocence. That is, people are assumed innocent until proven guilty. I've read some of the letters that Sen. Grassley has written. Looks like to me that he is assuming guily, which is against the American justice system. Further I don't see sufficient "concern" to justify this kind of investigation. It is a waste of the Senate's money (tax dollars) as well as a waste of time. I agree that non-profits should be monitored... by the IRS, NOT by the U.S. Senate. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 788 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). jbkrems: Quoting: "That is, people are assumed innocent until proven guilty." End quote. Did that apply to the Duke Lacrosse team? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1891 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Jonathan, can you not discern the difference between a court of law and an investigation? Do you think the police "presume innocence" when they are investigating a crime? What would that look like if they did? The job of an investigation is to look at who might be guilty and look for evidence. The job of a prosecutor is to assume guilt. It is the responsibility of the judge and jury to presume innocence until the evidence is presented to prove guilt. It is so tiresome to hear lawyers, and others who fail to engage in critical thinking, to attempt to stretch a principle that applies only to actual criminal court proceedings, to every area of life. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.91.221.177 |
the apostolic truth: I am a Mr. (male). Well, it should have applied to the Duke LaX, but we know that D.A. is corrupt. mcmstaff: Sure, there is a difference, but the fact is Sen. Grassley's letters are not neutral, and un-biased. They are biased with the perception of many Americans, including yourself and others, that these ministers are guilty of mis-handling funds. Of course the police do NOT presume innocence when investigating a crime. However, there is evidence for "probable cause," which allows them to obtain a warrant for a search, for example. I do not think Sen. Grassley has the equivalent of "probable cause," to be sending these investigatory letters. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1893 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Well, I would bet the whole country (outside of the credulous supporters of these charlatans) disagrees with you. I think the Senator has more than sufficient "probable cause" (another misapplication of a judicial concept - Jonathan, don't you get it, this is not a judicial proceeding, but a Senate investigation. They've done it thousands of times in the past. The law grants them the power, along with the power of subpoena, to conduct investigations.) given all the complaints of financial shenagins lodged against these guys. If they have nothing to hide, let them simply provide the financial records - I'll trust the forensic accountants of the Senate committee to get to the truth. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 794 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. jbkrems: I am afraid that I am sitting here laughing. First, let me correct this. Quoting: ". . . we know that D.A. is corrupt." End quote. A recent addition of the Readers Digest had an article in it on this subject. The Lacrosse team was guilt until proven innocence. Not only did Mike Nifong persecute the Lacrosse team, but so did the liberal news media as well as the many socialist professors at Duke. The entire black community still see these boys as guilt. From Mr. MCMSTAFF78, my belly is hurtin! Quoting: "I'll trust the forensic accountants of the Senate committee to get to the truth." End quote. What was the senator's name who painted almost all of Hollywood as communist? How about October Surprise, another stellar performance by Congress? JFK, how did Congress do investigating that one? Bill Clinton's impreachment, how did Congress score on that one? Moving on, the principle of "innocence until proven guilt" is a critical part of police work. Assuming guilt is a great way to hang the wrong man. "Innocence until proven guilt" requires all law enforcement, courts and news media to completely examine a case before reaching a conclusion. Every lead, every bit of evidence, every alibi, every possible scenario must be completely carried to the extreme before reaching a decision to more forward. Search warrants, interviews, evidence collections are not assumptions of guilt, but rather a means to prove one's innocence. Even an arrest is not proof of guilt but another stage in proving one's innocences. Again, this is nothing more than religious persecution . . . If Congress has a desire to look into the finances of non-profits, there are many. The Red Cross is overflowing with corruption, from the blood supply to executives receiving hugh pay packages. The Roman church? How many dollars put into the poor box were intended to pay off sexual abuse victims? One could carry on most of the night with examples of non-profits misbehaviour. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 795 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: It is quiet apparent you have found this preachers guilty without the need for a trial. Quoting: "The job of a prosecutor is to assume guilt." End quote. That is false. It is a great way to persecute the wrong person. It is the prosecutor's job to present the evidence held in the state's (State/Local/federal) possession and to bring the case to court for redress. Perry Mason is a good example of why your claim is false. I know it was all make-believe, don't waste your ink on that point. However, in every case, the prosecutor falsely found Mason's client guilty without viewing all the evidence. Matlock, is another example of the problem you allude to. If the police and prosecutors assumed every individual guilty, our jails would be running over with falsely accused. Believe it or not there are some guilty people walking the street and some innocence people in prison. Hopefully, the court is right more often than wrong. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1894 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
T(not)ATM - you keep living in your fantasy world. Who loves you, baby?  | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.91.221.177 |
mcmstaff: Whatever, man. apostolic truth: You're hillarious, LOL.  | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 799 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: Quoting: "Who loves you, baby? " End quote. God does! Don't you just wish he loved you too? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1896 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
T(not)ATM - there's that fantasy world you live in again. I'm pretty sure they have meds for that these days. BTW, when was the last time you looked at the third chapter of the Gospel of St. John? Just curious. Kremsy - glad you finally agree!! | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.91.221.177 |
mcmstaff: No, I disagree with you. When I say, "Whatever," that means that I don't agree, and you are stubborn enough not to really care or listen to my opinion, and also that you are not open-minded or persuadable to change your own opinion concerning the subject. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1393 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems, A person has to be totally brain dead ignorant and spiritually dead of discenernment to support Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland. To call what they do ministry is a laugh. No to low results of souls, preaching to the choir. These two partners in crime fleece people for their own gain and outrageously abuse offering money with no fruit or results. They work their cash cow to support their lustful status symbol lifestyle not to reach any unbelievers. Millions who could be reached with the millions of dollars these two waste on their status symbol junk. Copeland and Dollar preach to the choir the already converted and then falsely call it evangelism while they waste hundreds of millions of dollars on multimillion dollar jet planes that cost $5,000 and hour just to fly, $6,000 suits, $30,000 Rolex watches. Copeland has a $12 milllion dollar 18,000 square foot house, three other houses in other states, sixteen $100,000 plus cars, seven Harley Davidson motorcyles, along with dozens of Rolex and other $10,000 - $30,000 watches and gold trinkets. All spent from offering money. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 805 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. jbkrems: Here is another thought for you. Let us say that Congress proved these people had defrauded their congregations and the IRS. Is there any way to recover the money given? Yes, at least some of it. The cars, airplanes and homes can be sold to recover at least some of the money. On the other hand, what did the Roman get? Did the money (s)he put inot the poor box buy his/her salvation or just sex for the priest? Can the penitent recover their loses? From what a used condom? It is hard to believe I am defending pentecostalism!! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 806 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. MCMSTAFF78: Obviously you are the one who needs a reading lessin. "As it is written, Sandy have I loved, but MCMSTAFF78 have I hated." Romans 9:13 (TATM) | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1897 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
T(not)ATM - I think you might need to look a bit earlier in Romans, say chapter 1 "Professing to be wise, they became fools...who exchanged the truth of God for the lie...". Take care now, and be careful with those meds! | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1898 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
No, you don't say? BTW, looked in a mirror lately? Ever heard of the concept of projection? | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 44 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 71.91.221.177 |
trs: I am fairly discerning, as are friends of mine who support Creflo Dollar and Ken Copeland much more than I do. I think that both of these ministries are fairly sound, etc. etc. etc. I even read the letter that John Copeland wrote as Exec Director for KCM, and its all "kosher" to me. Call me un-discerning if you wish, but I think that what they do is good ministry. apostolic truth: I think I agree with you here. But I don't think Copeland and company has done anything fraudulent. mcmstaff: I don't buy into "projection" psycho-babble like that. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1900 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Gee, but you buy all the "pseuche-babel" of the WoF? My, my, my - see, you can be a little credulous, when you want to be. I guess when there's no self-interest involved, it's easier to be a little more critical, huh? Sheesh. | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.15.184 |
mcmstaff: I don't consider WOF teaching to be "psycho-babble," at all. I do NOT buy into EVERYTHING under the WOF umbrella of teachings, though. Probably 95% of it, however. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1909 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Whatever. (BTW, that's what's called "irony".) | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1394 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems, Copeland claims in his letter "We operate openly..." Openly? Openly Where? Openly When? Where's the financial accountability to donors for their offering money? or God? or for his $30,000 Rolex watches? $12 million dollar house? fleet of $100,000 plus cars and motorcylcles? or fleet of money wasting planes? He hides and hoards all the offering money. You call for over 30 years KENNETH COPELAND NEVER GIVING ANYONE A VERIFIABLE AUDITED FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF HOW THE MONEY IS ACTUALLY USED "KOSHER"! That is about as irresponsible, bad management of money, naive and ignorant as it gets. The Bible says to "know those who labor among you". Copelands misuse of money burning $5,000 and hour of jet fuel and flying costs to fly to a few meetings a year that he could have gone to on any commercial flight for one-percent of the cost of his private jet. I pray no one ever asks or has you influence them about trustworthiness or money. Copeland claims accoountability on his website yet he NEVER gives anyone a financial statement for over 30 years: He states:... "We practice fiscal responsibility. As good stewards of what God places in our hands, we are accountable...... We operate openly and legally. . . ." What a total out and out lie. Copeland also states he prays for each prayer request that comes in. The truth is he never even sees any of the 1,000's of letters that come in only their money. Click the link below and watch as Copeland makes fun of a minister for being a WISE STEWARD and only spending $25,000 yearly on his airfare for many ministry trips. Copeland spends $20 million dollars to buy his latest jet plane among 7 other jets he has and more than $25,000 just on one flight to Steamboat Springs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLOT9eOO8m4&feature=related Now watch how Copeland who made a pledge to only use the airplane for Gods ministry lies and jets around in the new $20 million dollar jet airplane to hunting ranches, island resorts, and ski resorts. View here Copeland praying and pledges to only use the airplane for Gods ministry. Then lies as he is shown to jet around in the new $20 million dollar jet airplane to hunting ranches, island resorts, and ski resorts. Listen to the tax expert state there are tax law consequences for using non profit money for personal use and gain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D74VHiVLROM&feature=related | ||
| jbkrems Junior Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 48 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 64.207.232.126 |
trs: Would anything persuade you otherwise? | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 826 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. jbkrems: You asked Ms. Trsinheaven if she could be persuaded, I would rephase it. Mr. MCMSTAFF78 & Ms. Trsinheaven could care less about any investigation. Both are out for the recipents of the letters, not the subject of the letters. You might favorably compare them to those who have found O. J. Simpson guilt of armed robbery. As for Mr. MCMSTAFF78, he is little more than a disgruntled former employee (MCM staff in 1978) hoping to get revenge on those who outed him. Ms. Trsinheaven is praying to justify her own brand of WOF. Neither is capable of an open discussion of the subject. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1396 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
krems answer me: Would anything persuade you otherwise? Answer this and answer how you can call what Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar do as they do quote "operate openly" as "open books". In reference to how their ministries are about money. Kenneth Copeland says "they operate openly." Creflo Dollar says they "are and open book?" An "open book" ministry and one that "operates openly: is one that shows all financial dealings income payables spending with audited statements. They NEVER GIVE anyone even their partners a financial statement which is standard practice among all ministries of integrity Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar do not "operate openly" and are not "open books". Their statements are not true and deceiving to the public. Why? Why? Why do they NEVER GIVE anyone even their partners a financial statement which is standard practice among all ministries of integrity. Copeland also states he prays for each prayer request that comes in. The truth is he never even sees ANY of the 1,000's of letters that come in only their money. Click the link below and watch the statement at the end that the IRS accounting and legal specialist states the illegality of personally profiting and using the assets of the ministry the way Kenneth Copeland does. Copeland makes fun of a minister for (being a WISE STEWARD) only spending $25,000 yearly on his airfare for his many ministry trips. Copeland spends $20 million dollars to buy his latest jet plane among 7 other jets he has and more than $25,000 in fuel and costs on just one flight to La Fonda hunting ranch, and Steamboat Springs ski resort. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLOT9eOO8m4&feature=related Now watch how Copeland who made a pledge to only use the airplane for Gods ministry lies and jets around in the new $20 million dollar jet airplane to hunting ranches, island resorts, and ski resorts. View here Copeland praying and pledges to only use the airplane for Gods ministry. Then lies as he is shown to jet around in the new $20 million dollar jet airplane to hunting ranches, island resorts, and ski resorts. Listen to the tax expert state there are tax law consequences for using non profit money for personal use and gain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D74VHiVLROM&feature=related | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1915 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
T(not)ATM - do you do anything other than sling half-truths and innuendo around? "Disgruntled" over MCM? "Outed"? No, on both counts. First, I left MCM, I didn't get "outed" (sic - I presume you meant "ousted", since "outed" has altogether different connotations - but that might have been a Freudian slip on your part). And I left just about 30 years ago. I guarantee you I haven't been "disgruntled" about MCM for right at 28 years. Now, how about telling us your religious affiliation and from what group you have your ministerial credentials and where you "earned" your doctorate. Or are you simply another self-appointed, self-aggrandizing "minister" looking to puff himself up by tearing others down? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1916 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Oh, and I've got my money in the pool that you're part of some extreme "Church of Christ" splinter group. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.33 |
trs: I won't communicate with someone who answers a question with another question. | ||
| ultimate1 Advanced Member Username: ultimate1 Post Number: 528 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
It is time to get upset and outraged at how many people will go into a Godless eternity because of the money hoarders like Copeland and their lust spending of Gods offering money. It is high time for everyone to contact the Finance Committee and demand they stop Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland and the others in this demonic hoarding of Gods offering money for their personal gain and misuse. Add Mike Murdock, Robb Thompson, Jerry Savelle, Jesse Duplantis, Keith Moore and Leroy Thompson to the list Sen. Chuck Grassley Washington, DC the Senate Finance Committee directly at (202) 224-4515 Answer how can you call what Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar do ethical as they do state themselves quote: "operate openly" as "open books" yet NEVER GIVE A FINANCIAL ACCOUNTING OR STATEMENT TO ANYONE NOT EVEN PARTNERS. In reference to how their ministries are about money. Kenneth Copeland states "they operate openly." Creflo Dollar says they "are and open book?" An "open book" ministry is one that "operates openly with open books accounting for all to view. It is one that shows all financial dealings showing income, payables and spending with audited statements. Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar let alone Paula White NEVER GIVE anyone even their partners a financial statement which is standard practice among all ministries of integrity Why are they hiding how the offering money is used? Why? How? Where? Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar do not "operate openly" and are not "open books". Their statements are not true and deceiving to the public. Why? Why? Why do they NEVER GIVE anyone even their partners a financial statement which is standard practice among all ministries of integrity. Copeland also states he prays for each prayer request that comes in. The truth is he never even sees ANY of the 1,000's of letters that come in only their money. Click the link below and watch the statement made at the end that the IRS accounting and legal specialist states the illegality of personally profiting and using the assets of the ministry the way Kenneth Copeland does. Copeland makes fun of a minister for (being a WISE STEWARD) only spending $25,000 yearly on his airfare for his many ministry trips. Copeland spends $20 million dollars to buy his latest jet plane among the 7 other jets he has and more than $25,000 in fuel and costs on just one flight to La Fonda hunting ranch, and Steamboat Springs ski resort. It would take 800 years for the wise minister (who only had to spend $25,000 per year on his airfare) to spend $20 million dollars that Copeland watefully spent on his latest plane. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLOT9eOO8m4&feature=related Now watch how Copeland who made a pledge to only use the airplane for Gods ministry lies and jets around in the new $20 million dollar jet airplane to hunting ranches, island resorts, and ski resorts. View here on the link below Copeland praying and pledges to only use the airplane for Gods ministry. Then lies as he is shown to jet around in the new $20 million dollar jet airplane to hunting ranches, island resorts, and ski resorts. Listen to the tax expert state there are tax law consequences for using non profit money for personal use and gain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D74VHiVLROM&feature=related | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 842 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). ultimate1: What is the difference in Copeland and the pope? or Copeland and any pentecostal preacher? | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 795 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.202.90 |
Here's what Creflo says. An IRS review also would ensure privacy, Owens wrote. All IRS reviews are confidential, and Dollar has said he worries that a Senate probe might air sensitive information about salaries, among other things. This is from the recent Yahoo article by Eric Gorski and Rachel Zoll. I am fundamentally perplexed why a minister and ministry that functions off money given to them by others feels salaries are so sensitive. They ought to be public knowledge. I'm afraid it appears the information is less sensitive than the individuals being indicted. After listening to Creflo Dollars own words on CNN, and hearing about his attitude and response, I have lost a lot of respect for his version of finances and God's kingdom. He literally believes and tells people that if they give him money they will receive a hundred fold return. His secrecy is disturbing, and that mix of secular and spiritual reasoning to justify it is not my cup of tea. I'll have to cross him off my list for awhile. I'm glad God is shaking the money tree right now. These ministries do a lot of good and though I realize that lot's of people hate their fundamental doctrines and teachings, lot's of other people love them. They're fairly important people in the body of Christ, as far as important people matter, and their responses in these matters may have future implications on their continuing influence. Surprisingly to me, in a positive way, is that Joyce Meyer Ministries is the only one that has fully complied with the request. We ought to get a certain legal view from that as to how this panel views whatever she supplied. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 329 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.125.248 |
Hi xman3-- I agree with you. I attended Creflo's NYC church for about six months, but with 6000 people, it was impossible to meet/fellowship with anyone and even though I joined the media ministry--about 20 people--I just never felt I "connected" with people. A few things "bothered me:" 1) At one service, he suddenly cried out, "I'M RICH, RICH, RICH!" and it was in the context of finances and he was boasting about his suits, status, etc. Really creeped me out. 2) He planned or plans to or already did purchased a basketball team. He wants to own one and I have no idea if he ever did or not. This is obviously a HUGE investment and I just thought it was weird that here is a man with TWO congregations in TWO states plus other ministries and now he wanted to get involved in another HUGE time-consuming endeavor that was not strictly ministry-based. It's none of my business, it was his own money, but I thought it was odd he spent time talking about it from the pulpit. Also, they started a Wed night service and about 500 people showed up. He was there in person twice and after that, it was a live satellite feed on a screen. He kept telling us that it didn't matter if he was there in person, the anointing was. He also planned to/already has start satellite churches with local pastors but the TV screen would broadcast his teachings. His goal was 500 of these across the country. Again, each would be a local church with "real" pastors but the idea of going to church and watching TV...well, I do that at home! It just seemed he was "so busy" that all he did was fly back and forth from GA to NY each week (we met Sat nights) and I wondered why he wanted to add MORE pressure to an already overcrowded life. In my opinion, of course! Maybe God was telling him to do all of this. 3) He wants to make money via motion pictures. The NYC congregation met at Mad Sq Garden and he was believing for $81 million to be raised for a building. No one could ever tell me if that was money to build or buy, but at each service we thanked God -- in faith-- that that amount was received. He twice said that he had "some news" about a location...but nothing was ever shared so I guess those deals went through. But he formed a "motion picture" ministry and asked those of us with film/writing experience to show up for a meet and greet, which I did. (I'm a writer.) About 100 people attended but it, too, was weird. The idea Creflo had was that "someone in this group" had written a script that the church would film and make millions off of. Now for the most part, these were dancers, actors, some writers, etc -- NO ONE had any serious experience and when I mentioned that it costs $8 to $10 million to finance and market a movie, and maybe we should "start smaller" I was "voted down." People asked if the movie had to be "Christian" and the answer was no--it could be "R rated" -- it just had to make money. They were thinking along the lines of Tyler Payne's movies--"moral movies" but no hard-core Christian message needed. Everyone in the room was excited to "make a movie" (Like Mickey and Judy, "Let's put on a show!") but again, zero experience. I asked a few more questions but knew this wasn't my thing or calling. A very basic thing in script writing is that page of a script = 1 minute on the screen, so you want a 90 page script for a 90 min movie. This is BASIC---but when I shared this, people were surprised to learn that. Because I certainly didn't share Creflo's vision, I excused myself from any involvement and have no idea if this "ministry" is still progressing...or where they are getting the millions needed to start it up. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 330 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.125.248 |
(continued) I attended Nov 2006 to June 2007 and when I stopped, no one on the media team ever e-mailed me to ask if I was okay or where I was. I had provided music cues/scripts for them so I was "known." Creflo DOES have a ministry, DOES preach "the gospel" but for me, I just would like a smaller church with a different focus. I continue to pray that God would bring the "hidden things to light" and I was a bit surprised that the six ministries didn't responded as a unit, all "yea" or all "nay" to the requests. To splinter like this is interesting. My overall concern for ALL these ministers is who tells them "No"? Who says, "Creflo, you canNOT buy a basketball team now, you are way too busy." Or, "Paula, you don't need to run up to NYC every three weeks for another service. Focus on your FLA congregation and your husband." Stuff like that. | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 997 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
It is official: Creflo has refused to give the Senate any documentation, and has told them to send the matter to the IRS. Only Joyce Meyer sent information. Creflo is headed for trouble! The issue here is not as Eddie Long says, an "attack on religious freedom". The issue is a tax-exempt organization and its use of funds. The Government has every right to question any organization or minister that lives lavishly, and avoids paying taxes. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 69 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.82 |
Bear: On what basis can you say that? Are you an attorney for the government yourself? | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 998 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
No, I am not an attorney, I did, however, spend many years as a pastor, and I am VERY well aware of IRS regulations concerning standards for tax-exempt organizations. You have ti live it to understand. I also research. The Senate committee is well within their bounds conducting an investigation. It is ignorance on the part of many who do not take the time to realize this fact. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 208.54.95.13 |
Bear: You said, "The government has every right to question any organization or minister that lives lavishly, and avoids paying taxes." Well, I guess you are assuming (1) Creflo lives lavishly (this is subject to debate), and (2) Creflo's church "avoids paying taxes." The legally correct term is that the ministry is "tax-exempt." It is NOT tax avoidance (which would mean a loophole in the law). As I previously stated in this thread, I did take Income Tax I in law school, and so long as Creflo's ministry is complying with IRS regs, their fine. So long as it complies specifically with the IRS regulations, esp. the 501(c)(3) category requirements, then their fine. The fact that Creflo is deciding to turn the matter over to the IRS is also fine. Of course, it then becomes the purview of the IRS to investigate, if it so chooses. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 333 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.19.19.126 |
Bear/others-- In addition to Joyce Meyer, I know the Copelands sent in information as requested based on this statement from their website: --- “Eagle Mountain International Church (“KCM”) greatly respects Senator Grassley’s interest in, and commitment to, tax-exempt religious organizations. We submitted our response on December 6, 2007. KCM undergoes an annual financial audit by an independent Certified Public Accounting firm. A compensation committee determines the compensation for each officer of the ministry, including members of the Copeland family, based on data compiled by an independent consulting firm. We comply with all applicable legal obligations, including all applicable federal income tax laws. Our church prides itself on financial accountability and has instituted policies and procedures to ensure our financial integrity. At the same time, we have also instituted procedures to ensure the privacy of our donors, employees, directors and ministers.” No further comments or interviews will be granted at this time. --- Benny Hinn is listed as the "second" to not comply: --- Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church Inc. and Benny Hinn Ministries of Grapevine, Texas, said in a statement to the AP on Thursday that he will not respond to the inquiry until next year. --- No idea what Eddie Long is doing. Paula's website doesn't contain an update at this time. Of all the ministries contacted, the ONLY one I was little concerned about was Creflo's based on my limited personal experience/contact with his NYC church. The Copelands and Joyce have always been willing to adjust the spending of monies received when challenged and I know both really are doing the work of the Lord, at least according to my interaction with them on behalf on other ministries. I've been to Cambodia and Joyce's work there, for just one example, is truly extraordinary. No, I don't agree with how they "spend" the money, but there is fruit. I never really watch Eddie Long or Bennie Hinn. Anyone else have any updates? | ||
| bear Advanced Member Username: bear Post Number: 999 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.236.150.133 |
jbkrems, I can not argue the law with someone who has been to law school.  If Creflo decides to live a lavish lifestyle off from his merchandise, so be it. However, his failure to report is questionable. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 71 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.109.61 |
Bear: OK, I'd go along with that. However, I also think its questionable whether he, in fact, does live a lavish lifestyle. How do you define what is "lavish," and how does the law? I do not know the answers to those questions, and I don't think Sen. Grassley or the IRS does, either. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1430 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems You are one the most gullible fools I have ever seen. You make this ludicrous nonsense statement you are questioning "whether he, in fact, does live a lavish lifestyle." ? What's to question? What's questionable? NOTHING? What law school could you get into, or would admit you let alone any undergraduate college? The 'college of excellence' from Robb Thompson and his fake phd? lol lol lol  What person would ever want you to represent them? lol lol lol Whoever is stupid enough to give an UNACCOUNTABLE ministry money without any financial accounting where every dime goes has a fool for student and a teacher. Why does Creflo need a Rolls Royce and his other luxury cars, his gated multi-million dollar mansion in Atlanta houses, his $2.2 million dollar condo in New York, his $30,000 Rolex wathces, $6,000 suits and his $55 million dollar $4,000 an hour gas guzzling jet all bought with offering money. What stupid fool would marry any idiot that would give Gods money to these wasteful lust toilets you call ministries? Finances and Stewardship is not something Creflo Dollar, Copeland or any of these fools should ever try to teach. Instead Copeland and Creflo and all of them should teach the courses on "how to swindle offering money from people, fake a little ministry to make it look good, then keep the rest for yourself and live like Sadamn Hussein. The IRS clearly states you cannot personally profit from a 501C3 non profit status organization.That is what is NON PROFIT MEANS get it! Copeland, Creflo Dollar, and the rest are hoarding money meant for souls and wasting money meant for souls spending it on USELESS THINGS, THINGS NOT SOULS,. These USELESS PURCHASES wasting Gods offering money meant for souls GIVE GODS money right back to the Devil with their purchases of USELESS $30,000 WATCHES, SUITS, HOUSES, CARS, AIRPLANES ETC. How can anyone be so stupid as to give Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, Benny Hinn, Mike Murdock, Robb Thompson, TBN and still breathe. . . and trust these fools with Gods offering money. | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.109.61 |
trs: Let me say a few things to clarify. First, I really do believe that whether a minister lives a so-called "lavish lifestyle," that is a question subject to debate. What is the standard that determines that? How much is too much? You and I might differ as to that. Second, I really did get a J.D. (law degree) from Oklahoma City University School of Law. Third, I really did get a B.A. (undergrad degree) from George Mason Univ. in Fairfax, Va., which is a suburb of Washington, DC. Your comments in the upper portion of your post directed towards me above are offensive, so please stop. Its NOT funny. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 335 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.26.117 |
jbkrems/others: Because Trs/Ultimate1 never apologized to me for the hateful and offensive things she said to me, I've decided to no longer respond to her and suggest others do the same if you feel the way I do. Yeah, it's the Internet and we'll never meet, but life can be challenging enough without having someone call you a liar, idiot, fool, non-Christian, hater of the Holy Spirit and His gifts and so forth. Really, it's tragic and out of the heart, the mouth speaks. I ENJOY the give and take and humor and thoughtful responses here. No, we certainly don't all agree but it is challenging and has cause me to look deeper at what I believe and why. Trs/Ultimate1 seems to be a bitter, sad and lonely person that many of us have "crossed swords/words" with for weeks/months/years. She tends to post some of the most outlandish things and seems to rejoice in stirring up turmoil. That's not healthy so I'm done with her. I certainly don't have friends like that so why would I "converse" with someone like that on-line? I realized how "nice" it was without Trs/Utimate1 on this board...and then she returns as mean-spirited and hateful as ever. So,no marriage, Trs/Ultimate1. You will remain as you choose to be--alone and I will not respond to you again. Everyone else, it's just a suggestion to no longer respond to Trs/Ultimate1 posts. Like any child who screams for attention, if you ignore him or her, he or she will quiet down. Not that this will work with Trs/Ultimate1 but I for one am finished responding to her screams. She has soiled herself and for now on, she can clean her own mess. She made it. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1431 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
jbkrems lol lol lol You are one the most gullible fools I have ever seen. Your acting and satire is shallow, hurtful meanspirited and lame also. You make this ludicrous nonsense statement you are questioning "whether he, in fact, does live a lavish lifestyle." ? What's to question? What's questionable? NOTHING? What law school could you get into, or would admit you let alone any undergraduate college? The 'college of excellence' from Robb Thompson and his fake phd? lol lol lol What person would ever want you to represent them? lol lol lol Whoever is stupid enough to give an UNACCOUNTABLE ministry money without any financial accounting where every dime goes has a fool for student and a teacher. Why does Creflo need a Rolls Royce and his other luxury cars, his gated multi-million dollar mansion in Atlanta houses, his $2.2 million dollar condo in New York, his $30,000 Rolex wathces, $6,000 suits and his $55 million dollar $4,000 an hour gas guzzling jet all bought with offering money. What stupid fool would marry any idiot that would give Gods money to these wasteful lust toilets you call ministries? Finances and Stewardship is not something Creflo Dollar, Copeland or any of these fools should ever try to teach. Instead Copeland and Creflo and all of them should teach the courses on "how to swindle offering money from people, fake a little ministry to make it look good, then keep the rest for yourself and live like Sadamn Hussein. FACT: The IRS clearly states you cannot personally profit from a 501C3 non profit status organization. That is what is NON PROFIT MEANS get it! Copeland, Creflo Dollar, and the rest are hoarding offering money meant for souls and wasting money meant for souls spending it on their USELESS THINGS, THINGS NOT SOULS,. These USELESS PURCHASES wasting Gods offering money meant for souls GIVE GODS money right back to the Devil with their purchases of USELESS $30,000 WATCHES, SUITS, HOUSES, fleet of $100k plus CARS, AIRPLANES ETC. How can anyone be so stupid as to give Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, Benny Hinn, Mike Murdock, Robb Thompson, TBN and still breathe. . . and trust these fools with Gods offering money. Anyone calling it wise to give these untrustworthy no low/results fools money has serious problems. You must have a self centered motive and be a planted spy here working for them trying to save your job or just plain blind ignorant as a box of rocks. | ||
| matt_hatter Senior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 4365 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 216.226.180.3 |
Bachman, good post. I agree with you and will follow suit. Krems and I have had our differences, but most of my posts to him have hopefully been as intended, in a jesting manner. Nobody should be insulted with words like fool and stupid. TRS actually has very little understanding of the Christian faith and I agree it would be better if all ignored her. Her posts are full of incessant, repetitive, drivel anyway. She indeed is a miserable, lonely, and unhappy person. Kremsy, I love ya, have a Merry Christmas. | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1432 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
lol lol lol Your acting and satire is shallow, hurtful meanspirited and lame also. You make this ludicrous nonsense statement you are questioning "whether he, in fact, does live a lavish lifestyle." ? What's to question? What's questionable? NOTHING? What law school could you get into, or would admit you let alone any undergraduate college? The 'college of excellence' from Robb Thompson and his fake phd? lol lol lol What person would ever want you to represent them? lol lol lol Whoever is unwise enough to give an UNACCOUNTABLE ministry money without any financial accounting where every dime goes has a fool for student and a teacher. Why does Creflo need a Rolls Royce and his other luxury cars, his gated multi-million dollar mansion in Atlanta houses, his $2.2 million dollar condo in New York, his $30,000 Rolex wathces, $6,000 suits and his $55 million dollar $4,000 an hour gas guzzling jet all bought with offering money. Finances and Stewardship is not something Creflo Dollar, Copeland or any of these fools should ever try to teach. Instead Copeland and Creflo and all of them should teach the courses on "how to swindle offering money from people, fake a little ministry to make it look good with their fake internet and honorary phd's, then keep the rest for yourself and live like Sadamn Hussein. FACT: The IRS clearly states you cannot personally profit from a 501C3 non profit status organization That is what is NON PROFIT MEANS get it! Copeland, Creflo Dollar, and the rest are hoarding offering money meant for souls and wasting money meant for souls spending it on their USELESS THINGS, THINGS NOT SOULS,. These USELESS PURCHASES wasting Gods offering money meant for souls GIVE GODS money right back to the Devil with their purchases of USELESS $30,000 WATCHES, SUITS, HOUSES, fleet of $100k plus CARS, AIRPLANES ETC. while countless people starve and go into a Godless eternity. How can anyone be so totally without wisdom as to give Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Kenneth Copeland, Paula White, Benny Hinn, Mike Murdock, Robb Thompson, TBN and still breathe. . . and trust these fools with Gods offering money. Anyone calling it wise to give these untrustworthy no low/results fools money has serious problems. You must have a self centered motive and be a planted spy here working for them trying to save your job or just plain blind ignorant as a box of rocks...or both? |
