| Author | Message | ||
     in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.118.38 |
The following post was posted by someone going by the name of Free Indeed before the Thanksgiving Fair at Homestead Heritage free_indeed (free_indeed) New member Username: free_indeed I have been watching this message board since its inception with great interest.I know that the purpose of it was to give sincere inquirers about Homestead Heritage a place where they could go to find out about the doctrine and the experiences of those who had been there and left. Before now, there was nowhere for anyone to go to find out any information about them before making life changine decisions entailed in becoming a part of them. We all know that going to them was certainly not the way to find out the truth. Now we know that the Watchman Fellowship was there, but many did not know that then and many don't know it now. I am very thankful for Watchman Fellowship and for Factnet and this message board for providing this forum. I wish that we had had it available to us before making a decision that was so tragic for our family. I appreciate those who have courageously come forward to expose the doctrine and practices of this group, even at the risk of being falsely accused of being liars. I know many families who have left HH after suffering unspeakable abuse from those professing to be Christians. I have seen families so damaged and torn apart that they will never be healed short of a miracle. I have seen young people leave and go off into drugs, alcohol, and immorality and want nothing to do with God after seeing the hypocrisy, legalism, and abuse that they grew up with and having been raised to believe that this was God's way. I know that there are many people still in there who are agonizing over what they are being told and taught and what they are seeing and living that is the reality in there. This has happened to every one of us that has left. But for many reasons, which I totally understand, they are afraid to leave. I hope that they are reading this message board and that it is helping them to have the courage to come out. (They were probably told not to read it just as we were told not to read any books on spiritual abuse because it would "confuse us".) I hope that they can see that there are people who know exactly what they are going through that are here for them, to support them and love them and point the way to truth and healing. Healing is a long process after an experience where thought control is so cleverly effected by people you love and trust. It also is true that after being "in prison" for so long, sometimes freedom can be a frightening thing. One of the things that is heartbreaking to see in there is the way that they take away the manhood of men. When you first go in as a situational member, no matter how mature a Christian you may be, they teach that you are as a babe in Christ and that you are not even capable of having complete authority over your own family. The "Brothers" have the authority over your family. What a sad testimony to have to ask the "Brothers" permission to have a family stay with you, to ask the "Brothers" if you can move to a certain place, to ask the "Brothers" if you can take your family on a vacation, or to ask the "Brothers" if your daughter can marry a certain person and when; or worse, be told who your daughter should marry and when, even if it is against her wishes and the wishes of her family. They will argue that they never do this, but the reality is, "Go pray until you agree with us and then we can say you made the choice willingly." What a joke! continued..... | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.118.38 |
Free Indeed continued...... What kind of man can stay in a place where they are no longer the heads of their households but always subject to what the "Brothers" say? What kind of man will allow themselves to be publicly humiliated in a Sunday meeting before hundreds of people in front of his wife and children, or worse still, allow it to be done to his wife or children and say NOTHING? What kind of man will keep his family in a place where many young women will never be able to marry and have children of their own, but will be worked to death in the center or as servants in elders' homes and told in a Sunday meeting by women in leadership who have families of their own how wonderful it is to be chosen as a "single sister". What kind of man can hear his daughters weep because they will never have what all young women long for, a husband and children, and still keep them in that place? What kind of man can keep his family in a place where Blair and Regina Adams determine whether of not they wear flowered prints or what kinds of socks they should wear or whether or not they should wear denim jumpers? What kind of man will allow Blair Adams to ridicule that man's teen age sons publicly in Sunday meetings because they like cowboy boots and western buckles and western ways, while all the while, he has a young man staying up late at night for days to make custom chaps for him and his own son for a brief visit to the church's ranch in New Mexico? What hypocrisy! It is pathetic to see! Some men like having their decisions made for them as a way of escaping personal responsibility. Some men never get into the Word of God and check out the faulty teaching that other fallible men have the right to make decisions for their families. And some men know there is something wrong, but are too weak to buck the stronger personalities of the leadership. Some men are so enamored of the lifestyle in HH that they put doubts aside and ignore the Word of God. Some men there become tyrants and treat their wives ands children badly because, at least at home behind closed doors, they can feel like a man, so they become hardened, rigid, and even cruel. How can men allow themselves to become so emasculated! The stronger men see the error of it and get out of there where they can once again have the biblical place in their families. It is particularly tragic when a man sees the truth and leaves and his wife refuses to leave with him. They may continue to live in the same house or even divorce, but it causes their children to have to take sides and it destroys the family. At that point, the wife has given her love, loyalty, and faithfulness to the "Brothers" and to the group and is practicing spiritual adultery. She is told that the covenant with the group is with God and is a higher covenant than her marriage covenant and that she must obey the higher covenant. "But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God." I Corinthians 11:3 When they tell men that their authority over them is themselves as Christ come in the flesh, that is an out and out twisting of scripture and a lie!" "And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:4,5 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 continued | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 8 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.118.38 |
Free Indeed Continued... As we have been together with people who have come out, we can see that there is a need to talk and talk and talk it out after years of being afraid to say anything about what they saw and experienced. You can only talk to someone else who has been there and been through it too because no one else can understand. It is that deeply damaging. It takes a lot of talking to help you sort out the lies and deception and the hypocrisy that you lived with day in and day out. It helps to talk it out to get over the fear that has been instilled in you. As time goes by, and as you learn what the Word of God really says, the need to talk becomes less and less. As you heal and your life goes on, you find that you can help others who are now going through the process. One day, you discover that you rarely think about it any more and you are finally "free indeed". You find that your freedom in Christ is the freedom to love and obey Him simply because you know Him and His Word and not because of a long process dictated by others who profess to be on a self-exalted and more spiritual level than anyone else. It is like a heavy load off of your shoulders to know that there is nothing you can do or what others tell you to do that can save you. Only your love for and faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for you on the cross is your salvation. Your obedience to Him is so personal, not through anyone else, and it brings you such joy. He is all you need! It is truly a paradox when you are in a situation like HH. I can remember feeling like there was a war going on in my heart. I knew what the truth was, abut I was being told by those I had come to know and love and trust, a different truth. I was being told what to say to outsiders who would ask questions and I knew that they were lies. But for whatever reason; pride, fear, whatever, I would give glowing reports to my family or anyone who would ask and tell them how wonderful it was. After all, if you looked at the beautiful crafts, the lifestyle, the false image of a paradise they had created of a simpler life, it all looked so wonderful and no one would believe me if I told them otherwise. How could I admit that we had made a terrible mistake, that it was all an image put forth that covered a living hell, that I had taken my family into this? So when people who are in there smile and say how wonderful it is, they may or may not be telling you the truth. continued... | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 9 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.118.38 |
Free Indeed concluded... There are some who have given themselves over to it for whatever reason. But, believe me when I say that there are others, those who are more honest, who are tormented inside. When you begin to see the inconsistencies, you have a choice to make. You can either give yourself over to it and live the lie, or you will become so distraught that you will eventually leave. If you give yourself to the lies, eventually your heart will become hardened. "He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight. Psalm 101:7 So let us focus on our purpose. Let us join together in our desire to see others free from spiritual tyranny and abuse. There are many, many little children who are being taught false doctrine andwho are being raised in circumstances that are frightening. (I have stood outside the doors of a Sunday meeting with tiny children weeping in fear of what was going on inside.) Many will one day leave unsaved, having never heard the Gospel, and may never know God. We owe it to them and to our brothers and sisters to be faithful in fighting for them and for those who might be deceived in the future. The annual craft fair in Waco (Elm Mott) over the Thanksgivisng weekend is coming up soon. Please share this message with anyone you know who might be visiting or thinking of going so that they can be prepared and forewarned. "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:36 | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.118.38 |
Free Indeed, I do not know who you are or where you are or even if you are still reading on factnet, but you nailed the life in HH. May God richly bless you and your family. If any of the brothers and sisters in HH are reading this I hope this resonates in your heart and you will find the courage to follow Free Indeed. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2067 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Someone contacted me and told me HH was praying against us...lol...I do not pray against them I pray for God to shine HIS light of love and truth on their pathways and for men that had tried to make themselves into gods be brought into reality that God´s little lambs cannot be brainwashed forever. I pray for repentance to come upon them and for chains to be broken. I pray for the weary in HH, the suffering, I pray for those that are blinded by fear and deceit. I pray for those that have had their homes torn apart by some kind of evil doctrine that causes unbelievable pain and sleepless nights. I pray for those that are blinded... And on and on my prayer goes but I have never prayed against them but have prayed for them. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 318 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.96.236.6 |
I am praying against the Bills... it's working! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 319 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 67.96.236.6 |
I never realized it could be so easy! | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 126 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.165.54.128 |
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2007/05/homestead-heritage-defends-itself.html | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 969 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 167.206.147.58 |
Hi Folks, May all those who attend the fair this year be touched and blessed by sweet fellowship. The times of music and crafts and food and sharing; and the majesty of God's creation and the moving of His spirit amongst His children. May the weekend be a time of joy and refreshing, may new vistas be opened, any old wounds be healed, and all have a heart to walk with love and respect towards one another sharing the wonderful things of God. Yours in Jesus name, Praxaluh praxeus@bigfoot.com | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 127 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.93.243 |
I am assuming we are all welcome for services Sunday? | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 128 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.93.243 |
See, no answer. Surprised? The cult will gladly take your dollars, but don't expect to be welcomed for services. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2069 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.57.184.130 |
No welcome UNLESS HH has some interest in you... | ||
| grace_alone New member Username: grace_alone Post Number: 8 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 70.112.88.45 |
It's been really bad weather in Waco for the fair this year. Today was very cold with highs in the 40's. Tomorrow it is supposed to be just as cold or colder with a high rain chance....I wonder what the attendance has been like and what the people in HH who have been praying and fasting for the weather are being told by the elders -- my guess is that they are being told that they did not pray enough. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 970 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Yes, there was some rain and cool weather, I understand  . newyawk-ish weather (except we had a pleasant-weather Sunday here). An excellent time was had by all, close fellowship and sharing. Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 129 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.93.121 |
And we were all welcome Sunday when we had no money to spend, right? | ||
| a_sister_of_yours New member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.17.48 |
Why are people who have been raised in HH, but no longer a member (even though they have not a single negative word to say re:HH), not allowed to attend the fair? What would happen if someone who has criticised HH showed up at the fair? Would they be put out or arrested for trespassing? So much love, yet so many conditions on sharing it? Understandable, yes, in a way since we all probably love conditionally at times. However, I ask again for you at HH to let go of your fear of those who differ from you; open your heart to what those who you have loved in the past and who continue to love you (despite your ostracism and shunning of them) are sharing here. Do not be afraid to ask the only one who loves unconditionally to show you if there is even one bit of truth here; you do not have to be afraid of losing your salvation if you merely ask a question and seek the truth. asoy (Message edited by A sister of yours on November 27, 2007) | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 971 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, We have shared earlier on such questions .. you can find a bit in earlier posts a_sister. There is little need to rehash the same, especially with posters (there are some here) who aren't really seeking answers and understanding; they word every 'question' for political purposes. We often see an attempt to 'bait' rather than share and inform and seek more from God .. generally I will try to not take bait. ============== May we all desire to be assembled together with Christian brethren in deep and sanctified holiness. May that be a desire of our hearts, in sincerity and truth. Psalm 133:1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Hinei MaTov U'Mah Na'im Sheves Achim Gam Yachad Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on November 27, 2007) | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 58 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
It is a valid question that is appropriately asked. For you to write “May we all desire to be assembled together with Christian brethren” and then contradict yourself with your post shows your desire to argue and attempt to suppress rather than genuine discussion. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 972 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Thanks for your thoughts, H75, even if a bit cornfused. Here is a little question for you. Since the tone of many here is always about 'cult this and that' (and that is at best) .. why would you ever desire to be at a fellowship meeting, if that is truly your viewpoint ? This is meant as a sincere question, I really wonder how you view this, and I do realize that the folks who post here are not all trapped in their animus. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
If an ex member wanted to attend the fair and fellowship with those whom a sincere affection still existed then that should be allowed. That is the question ‘a_sister’ raised. Also, one should not discount a proper post even when inserted amongst 100 of poor taste. | ||
| a_sister_of_yours Junior Member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.17.48 |
Dear Praxaluh: I am not sure if you are referring to my post, or another; not all (perhaps not any) have an ulterior motive to post here. If so, what is the "hidden agenda" that you allude to? Oftentimes, what we see in others is what we ourselves hold hidden in our hearts. It seems you often speak in coded words and references to which all are not privy; please, clear, concise and to the point messages are greatly appreciated for the common good. asoy | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 973 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, h75, oh, I don't think I 'discount' a post ... simply pointed out that the question of internal fellowship assembly has a history of discussion on the forum. So repetition is not necessary. a_sister can first look for those discussions if she is sincerely wondering about the questions. Despite the sense above, ex-members attending the Fair are not uncommon. Personally I did an unscheduled drop-in some years ago and was treated warmly (way before all this Factnet stuff, and I had had minimal or no contact for some years). And there were others there who were not currently members. Now I definitely do not recommend my one-time modus operandi; however I share it with you as historical counterpoint. Clearly the situation for some is problematic, especially those seeking to lead or join crusades and inquisitions against HH. Peaceable Fair-times have been strained. To put it a bit bluntly .. those who have decided to burn bridges should not be surprised when they have difficulties crossing the river (ancient Chinese proverb, perhaps). Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on November 27, 2007) | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
True Christians should attempt to rebuild bridges; not put up walls where bridges once existed. | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
He who struck the match should nail the first board. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 130 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Prax follows the political way of dealing with stuff- never answer the oppositions' questions. It's as clear as day that this is both a cult and an idol. I gave you that back up Homestead Heritage the chance to prove otherwise, and you utterly failed. I had a really open mind about the place until you failed the test. Secretive, salvation by works, don't associate with outsiders, secretive/non-Biblical writings and directives, abuse of power, no checks and balances on power, domination, mental conditioning, no liberty, no visiting outsiders, even if they are Christian, rigid rules, and the believe that you can earn your way into God's favor (forget that by grace alone stuff). Should I go on? Prax won't take the hit to his pride by considering he backed up a cult. It's just too painful for him to think he backed the wrong side. Here's what Prax will do- he'll argue minutia of my points. You fail the Bible. You back a cult. You are the enemy of Christ, and His grace. Paul would hang you up by your toenails for what you stand for. You have no interest in the truth. You just want to idolize some plot of land; some winsome people. Tell you what, go to Salt Lake City, and you'll find some other winsome, sort of Bible-believing people too. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 131 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Homestead Heritage should re-write the canon. They should tear out the books of Romans, Galatians, and probably the rest of the epistles too. That's the regard they have for Scripture. Prax, Paul has a message from Titus that was custom crafted for you: 10 For there are many rebellious men, (empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. For this reason (reprove them severely so that they may be ssound in the faith, 14not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed. | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
Aloha Majajh, You strike many matches. Me ka ha`aha`a | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 133 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
As we say here (if you came from Texas) "Maholler ya'll"! (Mahalo) Wonder if the poor folks at HH will make it to Waikiki in the next year? They could stay with me. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 974 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, And I count myself as truly honored to be insulted with so much gusto by majadh (who has never met me or talked to me, simply is responding to posts like the ones above). "pride ..cult..too painful..enemy of Christ.. Paul would hang you up by your toenails..no interest in the truth ..idolize some plot of land" Thank you majadh for answering the questions in the thread, for giving the readers a direct and clear example. Those with ears to hear the Spirit will have no difficulty discerning. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 134 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Yup, they'll have no problem seeing you don't answer to any measley Scripture (the nerve of them!) I believe in cutting to the quick, and I'm not going to play, "Let's all play nice" when Homestead Heritage is counter-Bible. As you say, "Read the previous posts". You don't feel inclined to answer for anything. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 135 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.91.111.181 |
Funny how we're supposed to accept you and your teachings, but Homestead Heritage doesn't accept that there is a true church outside of their barbed wire fence! Another pesky Bible verse from Colossians: If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21"Do not handle (newspapers), do not taste (pork, shrimp, catfish) do not touch (makeup or wedding rings) 22(which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. Read it- NO VALUE. Paul called himself Christ in the flesh, no? I'm not the stumbling block, bean, the Bible is smacking you upside the head, but you can't get past the messenger, can you? | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 975 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Please notice how the other oppos, even those superficially moderate in their own posting tone, say not a word of objection to the multi-confusions and rants and false accusations of those bound, like Majidh above and in other threads. (Ahh .. but he throws in a scripture awkwardly here-and-there in the midst of the rants !) Thus the other oppos ally themselves, by their conspiracy of silence. Or they even give a rah-rah to the ugliest rantings, as we saw above. And please remember how we had one oppo poster who was really concerned about integrity issues, and would in fact speak up a simple word against the haywire posts. And then he withdrew from the forum, no longer posting. I do not know his motives, however I will conjecture that he had the wisdom to want to not be affiliated any longer in thought or deed with those who had bound themselves to the ugly aspects of the crusade mentality and those who have no Holy Spirit taming of their tongue. After separating himself a few times from various rants along the lines of those from majidh, he showed wisdom in giving a peaceable goodbye to the forum, without prejudice as to his own views. Yet no others, not one, have had the integrity to take a stance. However we do see the oppo posters here put on their best phoney-perplexed look when they are not treated as warm friends of HH in social and fellowship and Fair circumstances. Perhaps they could do a bit of careful examination of hearts and motives, speaking and silence. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
You presume there are simply two opposing sides to this collection of writings and each side should police their posters. How silly. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 976 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, h75 .. not at all .. I am simply sharing that you responsible for a rah-rah as above, and for your silences, as well as for your seemingly earnest attempts to ask questions. Do you know the Edmund Burke quote .. "all this is necessary .." ? The same applies here. By allying yourself with the types of foolish rants that are commonplace here, as above, you have undermined both your own credibility and seriousness. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 64 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
So you then are responsible for failing to admonish Daniel for his ranting and raving and name calling? | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 65 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
Should I take the time to go back and find Daniel’s posts that were less than appropriate where you were silent? | ||
| a_sister_of_yours Junior Member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 141.224.149.106 |
The question of what constitutes a "burning of the bridge" event comes into question; yes, for some Christians, the act of an indidivual totally turning away from God and living an immoral life without conscience may be an event which would cause a "burning of the bridge" ie: severing (or at least severely limiting) of that relationship, other than for ministry purposes (although many Christians would hold that these individuals are the very ones that need continued support and and a loving relationship the most). However, for HH, it seems that anyone who is led to go elsewhere for fellowship or even ponder one of the multitude of HH teachings, would be an event that justifies severing that relationship, and "burning the bridge". I am confused (and not a phony-perplexation that you accuse of, Prax) why some, as apparently you are, are still allowed to "fellowship" and others who have not even left the fellowship officially are shunned? Prax..I am not quite sure where you deem yourself to have the authority to determine which questions are sincere, and which are laced with phony, superficial, and/or conspiratorial motives. asoy | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 136 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.91.111.181 |
It really galls you to get faced with Scripture, doesn't it Prax? You just refuse plain Scripture. Like I said, you are like a politician- you just won't answer the charges. When someone plays nice with you, you accuse them of veiled hostility. If I tell you what I think I'm evil. Another thing, if HH wasn't a closed society it would be less likely be criticized. You think that rejection comes first, but it comes because of the secrecy and lack of openness. | ||
| a_sister_of_yours Junior Member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 28 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 141.224.149.106 |
As I happen to look at the number of postings and membership levels of others here, it seems that some are somewhat promiscuous in who and what they respond to and post. Now, and although I am merely and mostly an observer here, and I admit have not read all of the past several years of postings, can one person be such an "authority" on all of these topics (some of nearly 1,000 posts), and yet not even be a member of HH? I am always cautious of someone who has self-perceived knowledge of and something to say on almost every issue. How is that for skepticism of other's motives? Who are you really? (Message edited by A sister of yours on November 28, 2007) | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 66 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
'A_Sister' I will try to address your post #27...... There is a multitude of reasons for people leaving the fellowship at HH. Some were simply left behind when the church moved to Colorado and others left behind when the church moved to Texas. There have been a few who were allowed to leave ‘with blessings’ meaning they were not disassociated so each has their own story and circumstances. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 137 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.91.111.181 |
What is Prax's allegiance to? Is it the Bible as sole authority, without need of human literature to clarify it, or is his allegiance first and foremost to a sect? Paul may as well be trying to convince a Judaizer, or Polycarp a Gnostic. The Bible cannot convince Prax. This shows HH to be counterfeit Christianity. Paul repeats himself in Galatians: 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 67 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
Prax your silence speaks volumes. I ask again, why have you not admonished Daniel for his tirades? | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 138 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
You expect kid gloves? I look at the Bible, see that Homestead Heritage teachings do not measure up (they don't even want their teachings to be public), and you expect me to treat you like you are a brother, and your beliefs just as good as the Bible? You ask too much. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 139 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Prax, is there some reason that I'm not aware of that I should be nice to you? Maybe I'm missing the boat, and Paul was just a little too strong-headed and big-mouthed? I think of you the same way I thought of/think of insurgents. I'll deal with you while I hold my nose. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 977 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
majidh, I have absolutely no request to you, to be nice or otherwise. Your posts stand as your own condemnation, and I occasionally note that for the forum readers. If something changes, radically, positively, then of course I will be happy to dialogue. h75, I actually have written to Daniel, at times privately and on the forum as well, pointing out that that in some cases I do not agree with his tone. An example of this is that I point out that the accusation of 'liar' is generally counter-productive, since so much is perception, remembrance, nuance, and rarely have I seen anybody offer an outright lie on the forum on any side, in the strictest sense of lying being stating 'facts' that the speaker knows and understands as false. And I believe that my concerns expressed to Daniel have been received well by him. A lot of the flying forum bric-a-brac of a year or two ago ago seems to be no more. From Daniel I look forward to every post that he puts in, even if at times I will suggest a different approach. Overall his posts are extremely valuable, and appreciated. And he offers insights into many questions and issues that I basically cannot address, not at all or not in depth, due to our differences in background. a_sister, I really do not know what you are asking of me above. You are welcome to remain skeptical, I simply share my heart on issues raised here. If that is a cause of offense for you, there is little I can do. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 979 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, oh, a bit more to a_sister. You are concerned about the quantity of posts, please be more concerned about the quality. If I am simply repetitious or vapid, then 50 posts in a couple of years would be far too much. And recently I stopped posting, not even looking at the forum for a month, almost two. Felt very checked in the spirit, and rested and free. Upon returning recently I am making an effort to only write, think, share in a manner that will communicate, will edify, and to avoid a lot of the previous stuff. The history is there, in the archives, for those who really wonder about the various laundry lists of 'questions' and challenges and accusations and this and that. Rather I would hope that folks would post on a deeper level .. if they really feel this is a forum where they should read or post at all. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.117.90 |
Prax, Your absence was noticed. I have not posted much but have read much on factnet. There was a time when Daniel, ARL. Under Grace, You, The General, Jeremy, ML, ForeverHis, Pureheart and many more were active on the board. Times change and rightly so. This board is a place for ex-members and interested parties can express the concerns and speak freely about their experiences. I agree with you Prax that it is not that people out right lie we all tend to see things through colored glasses and things will differ depending on the filter. In any disagreement there is a right and wrong, sometimes a little gray in the middle. Prax I think you were referring to Under Grace in an earlier post and he did try to bring balance to the opposition side and to you and Daniel. It cost little to be civil and in light of scriptures as “Love your enemies and pray for those who despitefully use you etc..” It seems appropriate to state the facts in love, regardless how people respond to the post. Food for thought. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 141 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Sorry, you're wrong. It's more than disagreement; more than different filters and colors of glasses lenses, this is a fight for souls and truth. Did Jesus say to the Pharisees and Saducees, "You brood of people who see things differently, and I respect that and pray for you... You white-washed picket fences?" Paul says: 6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting (L)Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a (M)different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are (N)disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or (O)an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be (P)accursed! 9As we (Q)have said before, so I say again now, (R)if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be (S)accursed! 10For am I now (T)seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a (U)bond-servant of Christ. Sorry, you're wrong. It's more than disagreement; more than different filters and colors of glasses lenses, this is a fight for souls and truth. Did Jesus say to the Pharisees and Saducees, "You brood of people who see things differently, and I respect that and pray for you... You white-washed picket fences?" Paul says: 6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! 10For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. Prax, you are an unbeliever because you refuse to agree with the Bible. Since the Bible doesn't agree with your doctrine, you discount it. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 142 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.95.154 |
Prax, when I was a zealous 17 year old Catholic boy I was faced with what the Bible said vs. what my Church said. I couldn't argue with the Bible. You made your choice. | ||
| dowen Advanced Member Username: dowen Post Number: 990 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 24.26.205.116 |
Maja, You should really think twice before you accuse folks of going on "Tirades"... | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.117.90 |
Maj, Did you read the post I started this thread with? I am not agreeing with the conclusions Prax has come to, however, if you think you are not affected by the glasses you are looking through (Your life experiences, your education and your own relationship with the Lord) , you are either naive or deceived yourself. I stated that in every disagreement one person is right and one is wrong. Sometimes there is some grey areas where both of you can be a little of each. Having said that the very definition of being deceived is that you do not know it. If you are on a bus going to Chicago and really think that is your destination you would be deceived when you wake up and find yourself in L. A. The point I am making is still the same, you can make your case stand for the truth that you feel God has shown you and still be civil! Maj that cost you nothing and it does not take away from the truth that you are promoting. If you think Prax is your enemy Jesus says love your enemies, pray for those that despitefully use you. I do believe the leadership HH is deceive, I do not believe that the doctrines taught there is the Good News of salvation by Grace. However, I know for a fact that the people in HH are not doing what they do for the purpose of trying to pull the wool over our eyes, they do believe what they are doing is right and they must do it to be saved. I think HH has a system of laws set up by HH leadership and again the start of this thread would indicate when possible I will point that out. However, I think that can be done civilly, decently and in order without name calling. Do you see what I am saying? | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 144 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.93.121 |
I do know that experiences influence thinking. I will say this- the ONLY way I'll be saved in by grace alone, and same goes for every person. Anybody adding to that by works is a heretic. I will apologize when John the Baptist apologizes for saying, "7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and (B)Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" The religious brethren a brood of vipers?! Well, pervert the Gospel and welcome to the brood. Time to get serious about the Bible, and the sacrifice of Christ for sins, plus nothing. | ||
| a_sister_of_yours Junior Member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.17.48 |
Dear Prax: I am not offended by your writings, I am skeptical of your motives. What I hear in your writings is a self-centered perception that your words are more sincere than others, your thoughts are more profound than others, your reflections/revelations are deeper than others, your motives more pure than others, etc., etc., etc.; you present as dismissive and condescending when you request more sincerity, more depth, more peace. The request is laden with the underlying assumption that previous posts by others have not been sincere enough, deep enough, honest enough. When someone pours out their pain and heart here, it cannot or does not need to be explained, dismissed or rationalized away by you. You end each message with "Shalom" which is a beautiful way to sign off; yet, what does that really mean? When I ask "Who are you?" I want to know what are the motives to your prolonged and frequent postings that seem to imply "burning the candle at both ends". You dismiss others pain, yet seem to present yourself as a "peacemaker"; there are too many contradictions in what you say and do; you want honest sharing and communications, but others who do share honestly are dismissed by you in a variety of manners (eg: a call to be more honest implies a lack/defecit of honesty that needs to be remedied). Yes, I am skeptical. I am glad that you will be more selective in your postings; we all speak what we know, and one can not know all. Share only what you know, and Listen to what others know. asoy | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 24.162.117.90 |
Maj, As I recall you were raised Catholic and you served in the military. Is that correct? You Posted.... “I do know that experiences influence thinking. I will say this- the ONLY way I'll be saved in by grace alone, and same goes for every person. Anybody adding to that by works is a heretic.” Martin Luther, the brother that broke away from the Catholic Church and to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude decided that the book of James needed to be torn out of the Bible because it did not contain Grace. Probably everyone you know still klings to the law to some degree or another. I am with you I believe we are saved by Grace! But there are many things that we all hold to that are a combination of laws and traditions. They come from our life experience’s, tradition and how we interpret scripture. Jesus and his cousin spoke harshly to the Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s because they were not only putting on a front of keeping the law of Moses, but adding new laws (that they only selectively kept) all the time. They created people like Saul of Tarsis who with their blessing would kill anyone who did not follow their thinking. Maj, KILL anyone who did not follow their thinking, namely the Christ followers. Would you label Mother Theresa as a heretic, because she was in the Catholic Church and took a vow of poverty and spent much of her life ministering to the lowest caste in India? Would you label St. Francis a heretic because he was Catholic or have you read of his Godly exploits? How about the entire UPC church and Sister ML are they heretic because they believe you should be you should be Baptized in Jesus Name or express the Godhead as Oneness instead of the Trinity? How about the precious Saints in Pennsylvania where a man walked in their one room school and killed five kids wounded six others then killed himself. In the midst of their grief those parents and the Elders of that church that same day went and invited the widow and the children over to comfort them as they knew while they had lost some of their children the woman had lost her husband and the children their father. As money started pouring in all over the world those Amish Brothers took the money sent in and set up a fund to take care of the widow and orphans of the man that had killed their children. Sounds like the love of God to me. Maj, the Amish keep all sorts of laws. Maybe it is because I know many people in HH and I know the history from BA down to the low men on the totem pole that I am still willing to Grace them even when they won’t Grace themselves. Fundamentally, I believe they are deceived. With some of the leadership they have proven that they will say anything to protect their kingdom, still deceived not heretics. What I am saying to my brother Maj is though I do not know you I am willing to bet you are keeping some law yourself, but I do not think you are a heretic. In the mean time I am blessed that you have this precious salvation of Grace. Keep the trumpet sounding brother. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 145 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.93.121 |
I will only say this in response: The Bible is the SOLE AUTHORITY for the Church. Anything contrary to Scripture is heresy. I'm totally aware Martin Luther called James the epistle of straw. James is saying that the proof of faith to the world is your works. I change nothing I've said. The men and women had better get some backbone and stop trying to talk nice, thinking it will win a war. Trying to convince these two guys that individuals were done wrong out there at HH isn't working, from what I can see. Warfare means warfare, and trying to create a dialogue will not get you anywhere with the leadership of this idol called Homestead Heritage. If you've been conditioned to be nice all the time, no matter what, and to keep the peace, no matter what, that is un-Biblical. I'm all for being nice, and, dealing with the public nearly every day, I do pretty well at it, but this is another story. I will not discuss what I do in the military, and yup, I was a staunch Catholic. The Amish are nice people who have un-Biblical beliefs (I've been in one of their homes), the Jeh. Witnesses and Mormons are nice people, but same thing. Catholicism holds the Catholic Church as the ultimate authority, and you know what I think about that. Are there people in these churches who may be Christian? Well, yeah, I imagine there are, except the obviously non-Christian churches. Here's the difference with HH for me- I have friends there, and I will put up a staunch fight for them. You, the leadership and spokesmen for HH: You continue to ignore the Bible to your peril. You can keep harping on stupid points like my tone, or people's motives, but if you keep ignoring plain Scripture, well, you can face the consequences. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 146 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.94.93.121 |
8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now,if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! My hope depends on nothing less, than Jesus' blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name. On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 980 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, asoy, I realize that you are 'skeptical'. And that anybody who offers thoughts here with HH simpatico is likely to bring forth that skepticism. You assume a lot to foster than skepticism, e.g. that I 'dismiss' this or that .. actually I always try to be very respectful to writings that are heartfelt, rather than the superficial HH-blame-game stuff .. "I'm ok, your ok, everybody is ok, except HH is not ok", quite common on this forum. Rarely have I 'dismissed' anything except laundry-lists, rants and accusations that were simply ugly, false, virulent, ill-considered. And on a superficial level you could probably find posting similarities between myself and majidh (e.g. a level of assurance on issues). And that is where "deep calleth unto deep". On Mt. Carmel there were many hundreds of prophets crying loudly and falsely, with only one, Elijah, truly standing for the LORD God. And ultimately each one of us is responsible before God, that our words be truthful and measured and responsible, sanctified. The fact that many will be offended or skeptical or in opposition is simply to be expected. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
I post on this site because there are other souls I left behind in HH who I pray for daily. Since the eldership continue to hold such power over the lives there in HH; which by their own doctrine it is proven that they have set themselves up in the place of Jesus Christ’s authority, which is clearly against Holy Scripture- I believe this is why many of us post – this is not about criticizing a body of believers; it has become much more serious for this to simply be a forum to voice people’s views. You can read my testimony to understand what the elders and their doctrines brought into my own life under the ‘true or false’ thread in FactNet. “At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship GOD! REVELATION 19:10. “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.” PHILLIPPIANS 3:12-13. "There is no one righteous, not even one; ROMANS 3:10. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
BA claims to have come to the level of perfection, and HW is close to that perfection, according to posts that I have read from HH’s beliefs. There are no scriptures to substantiate and back their claims. Amazing how BA and HW are higher than the Apostles themselves from the New Testament. The warning signs are all over the place concerning HH’s doctrines, and this is the reason I post. It is one thing for the elders and BA to set themselves up as a deity claiming to be ‘Jesus coming to you in the flesh’ –which describes a cult; it is an atrocity and an abomination to do so in the name of our LORD Jesus Christ. For that alone it is impossible for those who love Jesus to stay silent. “How can you say, ‘I am not defiled; I have not run after the Baals’? See how you behaved in the valley; consider what you have done.” JEREMIAH 2:23. | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 68 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
But by doing this they, BA and HW, have got themselves a great thing going. You gotta give ‘em credit for setting this whole thing up. They are sitting pretty with a nice bank account…………… | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 69 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
They would make Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn proud. | ||
| a_sister_of_yours Junior Member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.17.48 |
Where/when do you think they began to go astray? | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 147 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Prax, what is the Gospel? | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 70 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
Where/when do you think they began to go astray? The day they placed guards at the entrance to the church. | ||
| h75 Member Username: h75 Post Number: 71 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 71.41.26.146 |
It’s all about CONTROL, POWER, BEING IN CHARGE, HAVING DOMINION OVER, AUTHORITY, CLOUT | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 684 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I know a young man, who as a child went to the center in town along with his father who worked there nights. Being hungry for the truth he read the books members were not to read in the center library. He read books on the dynamics and undue influence. (Blair used these to show the undue influence of forced public education.) Even as a child this young man could see these dynamics being practiced at HH. Do not be deceived. I once was. In my love for BA and HW I defended their actions as "They are innocently deceived themselves and no not what they do." In my opinion these men are well aware of the mind and power games they are playing with the members and word games the play with the public. The only question that remains is, "Are they really so far gone in delusion to think that GOD would have them play these games for the sake of his kingdom?" or "Do they really know that they offering a false kingdom, and do so willingly in order to experience the power and self-importance, having no fear of God?" | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 685 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Blair does believe brainwashing is possible..... ---Blair Adams, Wisdom's Children: Home Education and the Roots of Restored Biblical Culture “For Christians to deliberately send their children to such schools makes no more sense than to send them to Buddhist monasteries or Shiite Muslim academies or more to point out, to Nazi schools! Christian children did not become 'witnesses' when they donned the brown shirt and joined the Hitler movement and attended Nazi schools: the Nazis brain-washed and converted them into brutal instruments of the state." And Programming … Who owns the children?: Compulsory education and the dilemma of ultimate authority (Education as religious war) by Blair Adams To proclaim a people free to choose their own government but then to insist that the government determine, through a government-controlled compulsory educational system, the very attitudes and values by which the people will choose becomes the most insidious and pernicious form of tyranny: it gives the people the illusion of freedom while all along controlling them through a form of governmental programming. And structures of our culture determine our thinking. Garden of God by Blair Adams, with Joel Stein and Howard Wheeler: Truth forum copy right Bair Adams 1989 1988 pg 22, Even secular authors, such as Ernest Becker, recognize that “culture means that which is supernatural.” Culture consists of, in sociologist Peter Berger’s terms, the “plausibility structures” that determine in large part how people think and believe. The way people eat, dress, work, play, travel, talk, form families, seek entertainment, build houses, use furniture, sing songs, read books, drive cars, create works of art and so on-these all constitute their culture. That people are shaped and molded by spiritual presuppositions and by living according to the Patterns and Orders in the HH culture… Garden of God by Blair Adams, with Joel Stein and Howard Wheeler: Truth forum copy right Bair Adams 1989 1988 Pg.29 “In general, a community is more than a mere assemblage of isolated individuals who all share something in common. Beyond this, it is a group of individuals who are together shaped and molded into a unified, corporate image, individuals basing themselves on common spiritual presuppositions, individuals living according to particular patterns, ordered in a particular way, participating together in a common way of life and spiritual experience. PG 29 Blair Adam's continues: As we have shown in “Salvation is of the Jews,” man has an inherent need for consistency in his thought and action. He will generally attempt to conform his thoughts and beliefs to his actions, and the latter are largely directed by the culture of which the individual forms apart. To take our previous example, if people each day greet one another with a peal of praise to Hitler on their lips, they will begin to actually exalt him in their thoughts as well…. The whole Nazi culture was constructed to pressure the individual into such actions of Hitler worship for precisely this reason. | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 686 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
***AND who ever controls the communication, information, actions etc. shapes and mold the thought patterns. Again: Who owns the children?: Compulsory education and the dilemma of ultimate authority (Education as religious war) by Blair Adams To proclaim a people free to choose their own government but then to insist that the government determine, through a government-controlled compulsory educational system, the very attitudes and values by which the people will choose becomes the most insidious and pernicious form of tyranny: it gives the people the illusion of freedom while all along controlling them through a form of governmental programming. a government-controlled compulsory educational system=controlled information Garden of God by Blair Adams, with Joel Stein and Howard Wheeler: Truth forum copy right Bair Adams 1989 1988 Pg 30 … “Whoever controls communication, whoever controls information, molds and shapes the corporate image of that society and therewith in large part the image of individuals as well. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. LUKE 16:10. Who among you fears the LORD and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the LORD and rely on his God. But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment. ISAIAH 50:10-11. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 982 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Excellent. It is good to read some sense on this forum, such as the fine excerpts from Garden of God and the other books. Thanks, 'foreverhis' and Covered, finally some mostly sensible posts (after a few earlier dumbos up above). Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on November 29, 2007) | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 149 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
uh, what is the Gospel? Dumbo out. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
I worked on much of the literature from Truth Forum that was just quoted. I worked 3, 4 times a week at night on what was BA’s vision, though back then I thought I was working on the LORD’s vision. I should have took the time to read what I was working on, for I would have seen through them sooner than when I did. In HH, you stop thinking for yourself and take every word of the elders’ as the gospel truth. “Nor are you to be called ‘teacher’, for you have one Teacher, the Christ.” MATTHEW 23:10. When I became ill I could not go to work as much as I previously did. They no longer had use for me and I was branded as “out of the spirit” by the eldership. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
What is interesting is I am forgotten by them (HH) now. Last year I saw a copy of “Who owns the Children” in a library, and my name had been erased from the credits-the 1989 edition; regardless of the work I contributed towards the publication of that book. It is interesting how full of “the love of Jesus” they are towards those who have left-even those who had worked hard towards BA’s vision. So it goes, another scripture out HH’s window, in reference to the Gospel story of the Good Shepherd leaving the 99 for the one lost sheep. (LUKE 15:1-7) | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ MATTHEW 25:44-45. I was sick, and the HH elders did not care. You are in their good graces as long as you are useful towards BA’s vision through Truth Forum, working the land, and giving your money in tithes and offerings. “By their fruit you will recognize them.” MATTHEW 7:16. | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 687 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
When we were in HH we were told to pray against certain ex-members; actually, told to pray curses. I remember a Friday night meeting when we were being told this. It appalled me. I never prayed against ex-members. I fear for anyone who would utter a curse. We reap what we sow. Those who curse will reap curses. Those who practice deception will themselves be deceived. I also never pray against leaders of HH or anyone else. If we are to love our enemy, so much more should we love, and do we love, those who are like we were, and who our hearts had for so long been bounded with. I pray for them to know the truth. I pray for their health and well being in every way. I pray that every stand the enemy, (who the Word says is not flesh and blood,)takes against them will fail, and only truth and God's love will prevail for each one of them. This board has been here now along time. I feel we have done the most good here when we agreed together in prayer. I feel faith, right now, that God hears these prayers and He is answering them. Let's pray for God's will to be done, not thinking that He only see's one side, but trusting that His will is always the best for those who love Him. Surely this is one prayer that each of us, along with those in HH who read here, can agree on. Lord Jesus, may your grace and love prevail in all of our lives no matter what side we stand on in the issues. May you bless us all with right minds. Helping us to follow the comand to love you above all, and our neighbors as ourselves. Help each of us to rightly divide your Word and walk in your Spirit. May deeds that lack integrity and love burn against our conscience. May we hate all sin and deception as much as you do. May we not fear the truth, but be willing to embrace it, and boldly stand on it. Your perfect will be done. Glory to you Lord, worthy of all praise and honor. Sit on the throne of our lives for it is your rightful place as our Savior and King. In Jesus name, Amen | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 688 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
Covered by His Blood, My heart is aching for you, knowing your past in HH. Yet it also rejoices knowing the victory you have in Christ Jesus now. Your testimony is powerful. The scriptures you are quoting are even more powerful. May God continue to bless your efforts to share your story, your heart, and the scripture. | ||
| a_sister_of_yours Junior Member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 31 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 71.220.17.48 |
Dear FH: Your words are so wise; I am going to print out the prayer above; it will help me get back ontrack. I often get so infuriated and bogged down when I dwell on all the pain that HH has caused me personally, those I love (some who are still in HH, some who have left), the heartbreaking stories I read here, and sometimes need help to go beyond the anger. I know that there is such a thing as righteous anger, but mine often is not so, and is definitley not productive, nor righteous at times. This prayer will help me to do that, in regards to HH as well as other things. Thank you; God is using you in so very many ways. asoy | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 151 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.91.110.8 |
The bunny trail of "The Garden of God" includes a couple of myths: Nazi kids didn't wear the Brownshirt uniform. I know from personal knowledge that Texas, unfortunately, does NOT require attendance in school. All you have to do is say you are homeschooling, and the kid can simply be lollygagging at home. This comes straight from the office of the Copperas Cove High School. They said they cannot enforce attendance, even when they know the kid isn't getting an education. The kid can't be on the street during class hours, but other than that, nothing can be done. Could that be the reason my nephew has a gigantic 6th grade educated brain? So much for insidious government. Howie and Blair need to do research before printing. "The just shall live by works", whoops, I should have said, "The just shall live by faith". I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give my glory to another, nor My praise to graven images. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 987 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, A little fact-checking may be helpful. This from Garden of God was strangely called a "myth": "Christian children did not become 'witnesses' when they donned the brown shirt and joined the Hitler movement and attended Nazi schools: the Nazis brain-washed and converted them into brutal instruments of the state." We are told that: "Nazi kids didn't wear the Brownshirt uniform." However, it is easy enough to see that the Hitler youth movement did in fact don brown shirts. Even in the early days the brownshirts were not limited to the SA (stormtroppers). http://www.ithaca.edu/hs/history/journal/papers/fa03Nazification.htm The Nazification of German Society By Jake Cmarada "The first Hitler Youth style uniforms featuring a brown shirt and black shorts and a unique arm band with a Nazi swastika" We even have a picture: http://histclo.com/youth/youth/org/nat/hitler/hitlerhey.htm Hitler Youth History: The Early Years (1922-32) "Hitler from an early point in his political career conceived of the importance of appealing to children and guiding their moral and political formation.... As a branch of the SA the HJ (Hitler Youth-Hitlerjugend) used the SA brown shirt uniform." This article even discusses how the youth turned to a more distinctive-style uniform in order to not be mistaken for the stormtroopers. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 152 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
So you want to quibble over they were SA Brownshirts? I saw Hitler Jugend in white shirts. Oh well, maybe I'm wrong. You failed to mention that I have personal experience about the TX education system, and that I'm right on this. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 153 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Say, what is the Gospel? What's the Good News? Is the good news that I have to keep The Law? Shoot, may have well stayed Catholic if that's the case. (I'm going to keep asking.) | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2070 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.70.150.117 |
If HH would teach their people more about jesus Christ and less about Hitler who knows they might come to know HIM as a loving, kind and caring God. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
ForeverHis, thank you for your words, I appreciate your posts. God Bless. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2074 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.70.150.117 |
I wish you folks could have walked with me back into the jungles this week and visited people and villages that have NEVER had a Bible. I weep to think about the millions for whom Christ died and they do not even know of salvation. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2075 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.70.150.117 |
I wish you folks could have walked with me back into the jungles this week and visited people and villages that have NEVER had a Bible. I weep to think about the millions for whom Christ died and they do not even know of salvation. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, "Your God reigns!" ISAIAH 52:7. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2076 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.70.150.117 |
So sad HH missed the whole reason why Jesus came... | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2077 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.70.150.117 |
So sad HH missed the whole reason why Jesus came... | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
The Great Commission, found in MATTHEW 28:19-“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations…” is something we did not do in HH. There was one incident where Truth Forum developed a newsletter that we delivered to people’s doors in Colorado, but we did not deliver the Holy Bible; not the message of Jesus Christ’s salvation through His Name- it was BA’s and JS’s volume’s of writings; mostly speaking about the new book that was being published at the time-‘Who Owns The Children. ’ I attempted to witness to people while in Texas and I was rebuked by GL for doing so. That was the beginning of my seeing through HH for what they really are. Today on the web, if you watch the video under Baylor TV-Homestead Heritage, you will see a lot of information on how to make pottery, blacksmith, etc., and you will hear about the school of homesteading at HH. What you will not hear is the message of salvation through our LORD, Jesus Christ-except maybe the word 'christian' somewhere in the dialogue. The salvation message is missing, the good news is missing. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood New member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
“But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.” MATTHEW 25:18. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 159 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.165.53.40 |
I don't know who GL is, but what in the world did he say about witnessing of the Gospel? | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 990 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Covered, I am wondering what was your background before HH involvement, or more recently afterwards. Were you involved with a church that handed out 'The Four Spiritual Laws' or 'Apostle's Doctrine' tracts ? Or simply Bibles door-to-door, perhaps with evangelism training ? And how do you look today at 'make disciples' ? Do the churches that emphasize the sinners prayer or an altar call experience or the number of people receiving the born again experience (as defined by their doctrine) all come under that umbrella ? Are they all 'making disciples' comparably ? Perhaps we can help make the discussion board and our own thoughts a little deeper in the ways of God .. so much here is so superficial. Feel free to comment on any part of the above. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| trilogy Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.216.26 |
I see an intriguing parallel between (what I know of) HH's idea of salvation and the Roman Catholic Church's view of salvation. Namely, that salvation is intrinsically linked to the Church (HH and the RCC, in particular). The interesting thing to me is that HH and the RCC are on opposite ends of the Christian spectrum. HH often is identified with anabaptists, and anabaptists were the "radical reformers" -- those who believed that the reformers did not go far enough in their reformation. I would suggest that many anabaptist groups (like HH) eventually circle around to having beliefs and practices that are very much like the RCC, and, therefore, very much like the Church they were trying to get away from in the first place. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm not saying that HH is not Christian and I'm not saying that the RCC is not Christian. But I do find it interesting that both entities essentially think they're the "true church," or, as HH believes, they have "greater light." | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
I took a tract from Truth Forum to a concert venue and left it with a security officer at the door, requesting that he give it to the performer there. I was rebuked by GL, stating that spiritually I was in no place to be witnessing to anyone, and then insinuated that I attended the concert, which never happened. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” MATTHEW 28: 19-20. His commands did not state to look for someone, or a group of men that will come to you stating they have become ‘Jesus coming to you in the flesh.’ Jesus does not command us to center on a demon possessed man’s writing’s, such as Hitler. To such literature Jesus teaches us to say, “The LORD rebuke you” and to not even give those words a foothold in our hearts. “Jesus said to him, ‘Away from me Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only.’” MATTHEW 4:10. “He said to them, ‘When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.” LUKE 11:2-4. There is no vengeance prayer noted in the above stated prayer of our LORD. My faith is based on HOLY SCRIPTURE ALONE, and not man’s pre-conceived writings; nothing more, nothing less, only the Word of God. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
My first experience with Jesus came through my mother, teaching me as a child to love Him. I started to read the Bible on my own when I was 15 years old. In every person that the LORD has used me to bring them to God, each one was a unique situation. It takes a lot of prayer. The LORD gives the words to say when the time is right for each individual. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
I was friends with someone for years, and no doors opened for me to witness. She knew I was a Christian, and came to church once or twice with me-she cried once, but hardened her heart afterwards. Years went by, and then one night the floodgates opened, and she began asking many questions. Today she is married to a missionary once sent to India, and is very grounded in the LORD and in her church. She later told me that my life was a main factor on her coming to God, so our example has a lot to do with evangelizing. The cousin who experienced the miracle of waking up from a three day coma had mocked me for years for my living for God. Today when he walks into a church he cries every time, just being in the presence of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately it took a life threatening experience for him to come to the LORD. A high school friend of mine became an alcoholic. I remember going into a bar and I literally pulled her out of the place- but I was not the one who could change her life. When I returned to New Jersey, I came in contact with her again. Jesus told me to stand back, because He was about to bring her to Him, and He did. She went to a Christian rehab facility, and is now living for God. In that example, the LORD told me to stand back and pray. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
When the scriptures states that one plants, another one waters, but it is God who makes it grow, is very true. It is a matter of staying close to Jesus through prayer, and the Holy One takes over! It is Jesus Christ who enables us to come to God. Each of the examples I mentioned go to different spirit-filled churches. After they come to God, I stay in contact with them to make sure they are going to a bible believing church. I always continue to pray for them all. It is through the leading of the Holy Spirit. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 161 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.165.53.40 |
True. Martin Luther woke up and realized what the Bible meant: The just shall live by faith. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2080 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
Thankfully there are no church signs over heaven´s door. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 991 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Covered, your harsh words above are puzzling at best. Are you referring to our discussion of the HH literature which talks of the Christian children not being subject to the nazi state in education ? (The brown-shirt discussion.) The literature that defends homeschooling and uses the nazi compulsion as an example of the significance of Christian homeschooling ? Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 993 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Trilogy, I think you might realize how tenuous and dubious is your own construct. And I will use water baptism as an example. e.g. some grace 'no works' Christians would attack the Anabaptists, CoC, Pentecostals and many others who reject infant baptism and also look upon water baptism as significant. Zap .. this is a 'work', even if it is God's providential and Biblical sanction and supernatural action. So who is like the RCC ? Those who also believe in infant baptism ? (ala Reformation leaders John Calvin and Martin Luther). Or those who believe water baptism is Biblically vital, like the Pentecostals and Anabaptists. You can cup-half-full or cup-half-empty as your prefer. Since you can work the argument either way, even to falsely trying to lump the Anabaptists and Pentecostals with the RCC. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 1 CORINTHIANS 4:20. You are welcome to speak about the miracles that Jesus has brought into your life. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 163 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 24.165.53.40 |
Prax wants to argue the pittly points and misses the camel in the doorway. What's the Gospel? You're afraid to answer, aren't you? You want to quibble denominational points. Won't work with me, since I claim no denomination. Since that sect is the center of your love and attention, and the Bible is meaningless to you unless it supports your sect, IT IS YOUR IDOL! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 344 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.29 |
"Thankfully there are no church signs over heaven´s door." How do you know? | ||
| famconcerned New member Username: famconcerned Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 99.243.2.205 |
From what I've read and what our family has seen when visiting HH we are concerned. The changes we've seen in our fam members living at HH, we believe there is much to be concerned about. The fact we are not welcome at their church is a clear sign of problems to name one. Welcome only at certain meetings. What kind of church is this??} | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2085 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
in my opinion and from what I saw and know HH is an abusive church with secret patterns and doctrines. Of course they are not going to tell you that... A service that last 4 hours or more and no one opens a Bible, even makes a trip to the bathroom...fear my friend fear... | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose name's are written in the book of life." REVELATION 21:27 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only fearful expectation of judgement and raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." HEBREWS 10:26-27. There is a tremendous amount of testimonies concerning HH on this site; there is more than one witness against the man-made doctrines they practice. | ||
| famconcerned New member Username: famconcerned Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 99.243.2.205 |
Secrets Yes there seem to be many secrets. They must think we that don't live there can't see through their secrets! What can we do or how can we ever get through to them? As you know we (the folks that don't live at HH) are not worthy of anything. Certainly not feeling like family. Their family now is HH! Very clear that comunity there comes first. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 164 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
James said, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." The head honcho's alleged arrival at perfection is a lie. The devotees to HH do not care what the Bible says. If you dare to confront them with the Bible you are condemned. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
"Do not entertain an accusation against an elder UNLESS IT IS BROUGHT BY TWO OR THREE WITNESSES." 1 TIMOTHY 5:19. I have lost count of all who on this site alone have come forward. | ||
| trilogy Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.216.26 |
Trilogy, I think you might realize how tenuous and dubious is your own construct. And I will use water baptism as an example. e.g. some grace 'no works' Christians would attack the Anabaptists, CoC, Pentecostals and many others who reject infant baptism and also look upon water baptism as significant. Zap .. this is a 'work', even if it is God's providential and Biblical sanction and supernatural action. So who is like the RCC ? Those who also believe in infant baptism ? (ala Reformation leaders John Calvin and Martin Luther). Or those who believe water baptism is Biblically vital, like the Pentecostals and Anabaptists. Sure there are simlarities to the RCC in all branches of Christianity because all branches of Christianity somehow or someway evolved from the RCC. My point was in this irony: Anabaptist are the farthest thing from the RCC, yet a lot of Anabaptist-esque groups (like HH) end up having many core beliefs that are almost a mirror image of the RCC. You can cup-half-full or cup-half-empty as your prefer. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. even to falsely trying to lump the Anabaptists and Pentecostals with the RCC. I don't remember mentioning the Pentecostals. And I'm not trying to "lump" anyone, just making an observation. Like I said, all branches of the faith look like the RCC in one way or another, the irony exists in the fact that the Anabaptists were originally those who strived to look nothing like the RCC -- more so than the original reformers. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 165 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
James said, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." The head honcho's alleged arrival at perfection is a lie. The devotees to HH do not care what the Bible says. If you dare to confront them with the Bible you are condemned. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
To Famconcerned, I will tell you from my own experience what you can do to protect your loved ones: If they are someone who maybe in your will one day, change it into a trust. This way if they do leave HH, they will not leave with the clothes on their back and their car, if they own one. Homestead Heritage elders will see to it that they receive 100 %, and will call down death and curses on them if they refuse. It maybe scriptural if you are giving it to a Godly organization, but this is the difference between a Godly church and HH: What they will NOT do is offer any of their inheritance back to them ever, even after your loved ones leave HH. If you suspect your loved ones are seriously ill, contact the press. The elders do not want anyone to know about their ‘doctrines’. That was evident in the Waco Tribune articles last May. The reason your loved ones will refuse to go to a doctor is because it is the elders, and not your loved ones who will make that decision for them. I was bleeding internally which led to becoming barren because the elders decided I would not receive medical attention while in HH. (Message edited by Coveredbyhisblood on December 03, 2007) | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 166 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Somebody practiced medicine on you without a license. You probably would win in court. Those leaders do understand the language of money. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2086 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
and that is the sad part...I asked and asked about that very thing. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2087 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 189.3.11.119 |
and that is the sad part...I asked and asked about that very thing. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
Above all, pray to Jesus. He is greater than the controlling spirit that dominates HH. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
Thank you for your thoughts in your posts and for your encouragement in the LORD. | ||
| famconcerned New member Username: famconcerned Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 99.243.2.205 |
I don't understand how they (leaders) can give back their inheritance to folks. How is it they get their hands on it in the first place? Do the folks living at HH feel pressured into giving their inheritances to them? I also know what you mean about people living there not seeking medical attention. They have decided Dr's are no good. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 994 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, A couple of points. > Majidh > Won't work with me, since I claim no denomination. A fabrication. I share in depth with folks with many or no denominations. However I won't "work with" Majidh because the posts are one foolishness after another and are not at all designed for real sharing and discussion. And it seems you barely know a thing about the topics here, yet have found a little personal soapbox. The posts are simply an embarrassment to oppo-land. Trilogy, are you yourself RCC, either currently or in background? I know we may have covered this before. Shalom, Praxaluh praxeus@bigfoot.com | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 995 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, A couple of points. > Majidh > Won't work with me, since I claim no denomination. A fabrication. I share in depth with folks with many or no denominations. However I won't "work with" Majidh because the posts are one foolishness after another and are not at all designed for real sharing and discussion. And it seems you barely know a thing about the topics here, yet have found a little personal soapbox. The posts are simply an embarrassment to oppo-land. Trilogy, are you yourself RCC, either currently or in background? I know we may have covered this before. Shalom, Praxaluh praxeus@bigfoot.com | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
They take scriptures such as ACTS chapter 5 and state that death will come to the person just as it did to Ananias and Sapphira-(they held back part of the money that was given to Peter and the Apostles and died soon afterwards) if you do not give them everything –Meaning that they are on the same level and even higher than the Apostles, as BA has been named at the level of perfection-that should tell you something; when a person reaches the level that Jesus Christ is at-he has placed himself on the same level as God Himself. There are no scriptures to back their claims-none that state that a man or men will reach the level of perfection before the LORD’s return. What they do not speak about are these scriptures- “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion for God loves a cheerful giver.” 2 CORINTHIANS 9:7. I gave everything to the elders at HH. At the time, I thought I was giving my all to Jesus Christ. I was then told to leave-only after they received everything they knew I had possessed. I left with the clothing I was wearing and whatever I could put in my car. Any other possessions of mine were left behind. The elders will not offer back your inheritance, the money from the sales of your homes, NOTHING. Basically you start your life with Jesus over again with HH holding your life savings in their pockets. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
A family owned a beautiful home in north Jersey and moved to Colorado with HH. The couple did not give the money from the sale of their home to the elders right away. A Sunday meeting was called, and the family was verbally bashed to the congregation without the accused present. The husband saw through HH, but the wife did not. The family was torn apart, and the husband moved back to New Jersey. An announcement was made at the next meeting that the husband was ‘jealous’ that he was not named as an elder as for the reason for his leaving HH. I witnessed all of this while there in HH. So you see, all are treated in this manner, especially if the elders believe you have substantial worth. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 167 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.91.111.137 |
Wow, what an incredibly dangerous cult. If it can be shown that the "giving" was under duress, you might could win it back. | ||
| a_sister_of_yours Junior Member Username: a_sister_of_yours Post Number: 33 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 141.224.149.106 |
Dear Covered: Is this the story of H.I. & M.I; or are there others? | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
Dear Sister, I am sorry, I cannot reveal the identities of those who have suffered in HH; I am sure you understand. I did witness these events, and I can openly admit what happened to me while I was in HH. Dear Famconcerned, I do not know if you are a Christian. Either way, make sure you have a Holy Bible that is understandable for you, and begin reading the whole New Testament. It reveals to all of us the loving God and the promises we all have in Jesus Christ-and it will show you that ALL scripture must be taken into account when praying about major decisions in our lives. HH takes one scripture to ‘drive home’ to their congregation so to suit their own agenda, and will leave out all other scriptures regarding the subject matter. I pray this helps. I will be praying for your loved ones. (Message edited by Coveredbyhisblood on December 04, 2007) | ||
| trilogy Member Username: trilogy Post Number: 53 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 64.193.216.26 |
Trilogy, are you yourself RCC, either currently or in background? No way. There are too many heresies in the RCC. I'm a protestant. Always have been; always will be. On the other hand, I do think, despite the heresies (which many denoms have), you can be in the RCC and be a true believer. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 168 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 198.250.180.194 |
Prax, huff, puff, and blow the house down! You won't answer me because I don't know what I'm talking about. You won't answer those who were there (you're not there) because they do know what they are talking about. Quit spewing hot air- you care nothing about evidence. Remember, by the word of two or three witnesses every fact shall be confirmed. You do the most damage to your beloved sect because when you post, we post. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 996 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Wow... it is fascinating to see folks give such an unspiritual and warped and self-serving spin on dear friends and on events you actually witnessed and experienced from multiple ends. Par for the FOIC (Factnet-Oppo-Inquisition-Course). === Trilogy, thanks for the answer. ==== Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Matthew 5:14 ... A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Shalom, Praxaluh (Message edited by praxaluh on December 04, 2007) | ||
| common_sense Senior Member Username: common_sense Post Number: 1025 Registered: 3-2005 Posted From: 76.221.199.20 |
Wow... it is fascinating to see folks give such an unspiritual and warped and self-serving spin on dear friends and on events you actually witnessed and experienced from multiple ends. So, Praxaluh, what is the spiritual and unwarped and selfless spin on these dear friends and on events you may or may not have witnessed and experienced? | ||
| in_season New member Username: in_season Post Number: 15 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 67.9.89.247 |
Maj, You posted..... “I will only say this in response: The Bible is the SOLE AUTHORITY for the Church. Anything contrary to Scripture is heresy.” What you really mean is Maj’s interpretation of the Bible is the SOLE AUTHORITY for the Church. Do you believe in Baptizing in Jesus Name? Do you believe in Oneness or the Trinity? Do you believe in a separate work of Holiness? Do you believe the Baptizam of the Holy Spirit? If you do, do you believe that the evidence of the Baptizam of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues? Do you believe that the gifts mentioned in 1Corinthians 12,13,and 14 are for today? Do you believe as some do that Christ will return by “rapturing” out the church before the great Tribulation? Or do you believe believers are going to go through the Great Tribulation? Do you believe in Tithing 10% or you will be under a curse as it says in Micah or do you believe what Jesus told the rich young ruler “since you have obeyed the commandments from your youth only one thing remains sell all you have and give to the poor”? Do you agree with Paul or Barnabas on whether to take John Mark on the next missionary journey? Do you believe if you are divorced you cannot re-marry under any circumstances? Can you re-marry if your spouse committed adultery? What if it happened before you got saved? Would lusting after a woman be the same as adultery as Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount? Did Jesus really mean for you to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand if either offends (sins) God? Did Jesus really mean to “Be perfect as your heavenly Father in heaven is perfect”, the sentence He used to end the Sermon on the Mount with? We could go on and on...... Maj, Jesus said the Father knows when a sparrow falls and has numbered the hairs on our heads. He is specifically dealing with all of his children whether you agree with the interpretation they hold or not. As you know I started this post to remind people that all that “glitters is not gold”. Free-Indeed talks of real life situations in HH and the struggles that one goes through in getting out. Covered, Foreverhis and others speak of their real life situations and what their experiences were in HH. In spite of where I believe HH is and the caution I would give to those wanting to join and the encouragement I would give to those trying to get out, still I think one can be civil and not condescending. Maj, you posted.. “If you've been conditioned to be nice all the time, no matter what, and to keep the peace, no matter what, that is un-Biblical. I'm all for being nice, and, dealing with the public nearly every day, I do pretty well at it, but this is another story.” Maj, I am not nice for the sake of being nice, no matter what just to keep peace. Having said that when you come to correct or disagree or even discipline it can be done in humility and love, keeping the log out of your eye while deal the speck in someone else’s. You posted..... “You, the leadership and spokesmen for HH: You continue to ignore the Bible to your peril. You can keep harping on stupid points like my tone, or people's motives, but if you keep ignoring plain Scripture, well, you can face the consequences.” Maj, In writing as well as speaking your tone and motive color any truth you may be projecting. It is not just what you say it is how you say it. | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 169 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.91.111.137 |
Sure, I'll answer these when Prax answers my questions. John the Baptist, Paul, Jesus, Elijah, etc. must really bother you when you think about the stuff they did and said. Tell you what, start a subject line on Factnet about each one of those doctrinal points, and they can be addressed there. | ||
| praxaluh Advanced Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 1000 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, Concerned what I "may or may not have" witnessed and experienced there is only one aspect that I feel the liberty and grace to share here now. ======================================= The dear woman being referenced lived each day as a shining Proverbs 31 woman of valor, from smiles and carings, to garage sales and service and needs and helps, and in every way throughout her life. Looking and caring for others first, serving God and family and friends with yeoman efforts. All who came to her doorstep, all whom God placed in her path. From the day she was transformed into the image of Christ by receiving the Holy Spirit, onward, she remained faithful unto God. In the early days she placed her books of magick arts outside the camp, to be eaten and destroyed, and thereupon she remained a woman of faith. A woman whose faithfulness touched our hearts, her brothers and sisters, in so many ways. Those who would seek to gain points by sullying her honor and memory, by falsely trying to say she lacked insight, will only do a disservice to themselves and to God. Please, my friends, watch your heart and words. This sister saw events with spiritual eyes and remained faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ. Her eyes were open wide and she saw through the charades and harangues of those who mock and hinder. Her steps were ordered by the Lord. The life and actions and words of the stalwart and sensitive sister, the dedication and faithfulness, speaks to all of our hearts, those who knew and loved her .. even today. Those of you who never got a chance to meet and fellowship with her missed a precious experience. And those of you who share of her life should do so with honor and respect and appreciation, asking the Lord Jesus to give you even a small measure of her dedication and faithfulness. She rests today among the people of God whereunto she was called. And I feel truly privileged and honored to call her my sister. In Jesus name, Praxaluh | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
"The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.." REVELATION 20:12. HH's elders will stand in judgement for all of the harm they have done to those who trusted them. There are no scriptures that state that they will be exempt.-Only true repentance is the key. Scripture is very clear about this subject matter. (Message edited by Coveredbyhisblood on December 05, 2007) | ||
| famconcerned New member Username: famconcerned Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 99.243.2.205 |
I assure you that my comments here on this chat page are neither warped ,unspiritual or self-serving. I write about my concerns for my family, our flesh and blood. Thank you coveredbyhisblood for your comments. I appreciate your thoughts. | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
We are here to help one another. I pray God blesses you always. "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call." ACTS 2:39. | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 692 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
A family owned a beautiful home in north Jersey and moved to Colorado with HH. The couple did not give the money from the sale of their home to the elders right away. A Sunday meeting was called, and the family was verbally bashed to the congregation without the accused present. The husband saw through HH, but the wife did not. The family was torn apart, and the husband moved back to New Jersey. An announcement was made at the next meeting that the husband was ‘jealous’ that he was not named as an elder as for the reason for his leaving HH. I witnessed all of this while there in HH. Prax: Those who would seek to gain points by sullying her honor and memory,… (Whoa… Do you dare stand in the place of God and judge the intent of the heart???) Prax: Please, my friends, watch your heart and words. This sister saw events with spiritual eyes and remained faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ. Her eyes were open wide and she saw through the charades and harangues of those who mock and hinder. Her steps were ordered by the Lord. Me: Are you two talking about the same person? Prax, how do you know her steps were ordered by the Lord? Maybe because she agreed with BA? Do you have any idea how arrogant you sound always claiming to speak for God when it concerns someone else? It is one thing to state you own opinion like the other poster did, but to claim to know God’s ????? Is this yet another case where the wife refused to submit to her husband because he was leaving her God, the BA fellowship? I hope not. Dedication in and of itself is not always godly. Are those who were dedicated ect... and died in the fires of Mount Carmel Texas in the "name" of God to be admired for their dedication and service? I do not know of who you are speaking of, but my guess is I would of liked her a lot. But all the sweetness and self-sacrifice in the world might mean nothing if it is misplaced, God knows. God judges the heart and knows our intentions. He also knows if we belong to Him or another. I am not going to judge this woman for her service to the fellowship. That belongs to Him to judge. I DO know what He clearly spoke to me. He rebuked me in love and brought me to deep repentance and immediate restoration, yet He made it clear to me my own guilt for allowing HH to become God in my life, and for letting BA sit on His throne. I was deceived by the dynamics in place at HH, but my responsibility as a sheep is to follow His voice, and His sheep hear His voice. There were many red flags and warnings. I believe as God's sheep, we wont be led astray unless we renege on our responsibility to seek God and the truth above all else. The fellowship looked so inviting, that I allowed myself to be enchanted/bewitched by what I saw and desired. (bewitched-Gal 3:1, No, I am not calling HH leaders witches!) Out of love for the brothers and sisters I served whole heartily. God never rebuked me for my service. He did rebuke me for my blind submission to HH leadership, (even when it went against what He was speaking to my conscience,) and my refusal to seek the truth at all cost. If I had ever "sweetly" allowed them to come between my husband and me.... well let's say I was guilty of enough without adding that. I thank God continually, that by His mercy, my family came out in one piece; so many did not. to be continued | ||
| foreverhis Advanced Member Username: foreverhis Post Number: 693 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 69.176.54.69 |
I seriously know that if I am wrong about HH, that God will hold me responsible for my actions on this board. Do you realize that if you, in your obvious non-member ignorance are supporting the breaking up of families and other abuses in the name of God, you too will be held responsible for that? It would seem to me, that your rebuking us concerning our own experiences as members is arrogant, when you 1> were not there, and 2. have not yourself lived in HH shoes’ of total submission and vulnerability in way over a decade or two. I worry for you. You have heard too many voices here repeat these accusations. You witnessed two posters strongly and adamantly oppose us for months and support HH, and then quit when they learned more outside of this board. I hope you, like me, have humbly asked God, "Am I wrong? Show me." Are you open at all to the possibility that you might be? | ||
| praxaluh Senior Member Username: praxaluh Post Number: 1001 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 24.193.218.80 |
Hi Folks, > "Foreverhis" > .. I do not know of who you are speaking of .. Nuff said. Silence would be your best course. > if I am wrong about HH .. God will hold me > responsible for my actions on this board. Amen. Shalom, Praxaluh | ||
| coveredbyhisblood Junior Member Username: coveredbyhisblood Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 67.83.90.230 |
"I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. Isaiah 42:7-9 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1-3 It is blasphemy to proclaim that the leader of a church body is at the same level of perfection as Jesus Christ. There is no Scripture to back HH's claim.-There are Scriptures to refute this claim. | ||
| missionary_lady Senior Member Username: missionary_lady Post Number: 2088 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 201.53.250.217 |
I would say it goes beyond blasphemy... | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 350 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.29 |
You would say or you did, I'm confused. How far beyond? Approximately... | ||
| majajh Intermediate Member Username: majajh Post Number: 170 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 66.91.111.137 |
Wierd, mocking question. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 354 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.29 |
Odd, condescending statement. | ||
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