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termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 673
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 3:58 pm: | 
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Freewill vs Total Depravity
Universal Atonement vs Limited Atonement
Conditional Election vs Unconditional Election
Resistable Grace vs Prevenient Grace
Falling from Grace vs Perseverence of the Saints
I would be interested to discuss these matters with others, particularly trsinheaven and arron. Others can join in too. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 6:09 pm: |
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First before we go any farther lets get a few terms straight and basics out of the way.
1.)What is your definition of Grace?
2.) Does a person receive salvation by Grace or Faith?
3.) What do you believe about predestination? |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 728
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.229.6.252
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 6:14 pm: |
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M(r)(s). termin8d:
Quoting: "God cannot force a person to have faith."
End quote.
Rad! Just when I started to trust him, God donin' lied agin. |
arron
Senior Member
Username: arron
Post Number: 3709
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.119.39.156
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 7:30 pm: |
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tatm.... u have always believed GOD lied. so dont start condemong some one now. you are the one that is a liar and an unbelliever |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 678
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 8:09 pm: |
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tatm: I was quoting trs who said that originally. It does not represent what I believe. Please be careful in how you quote me. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 731
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.229.6.252
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 9:30 pm: |
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M(r)(s). termin8d:
I quoted you verbatim. You are right! That is scary. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 679
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 3:05 am: |
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tatm: You conveniently left out the fact that I was quoting trsinheaven, and now again in this post you are attributing the quote to my belief which it is not. The reason that I quoted trs was so that I could address those statements which I myself do not believe.
I am not sure how many times I have to explain it to you before you will admit that you made a mistaken assumption. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 680
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 3:08 am: |
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tatm: And by the way, as I have repeatedly told you, my name is Oliver. So either refer to me as termin8d, or Oliver please. You know that I am male. Thankyou. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 733
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.229.6.252
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 8:06 am: |
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M(r)(s). termin8d
Quoting: "So either refer to me as termin8d, or Oliver please."
End quote.
. . . and miss the precious look on your face?
Come, answer this for me.
"Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology[1] and embraced primarily by Arminian Christians who are influenced by the theology of John Wesley and who are part of the Methodist movement. Wesley typically referred to it in 18th century language as preventing grace. In modern English, the phrase preceding grace would have a similar meaning."
What does that mean? Book, chapter and verse please. (If needed, underline what you would have me read. Be sure to include all you have read between the lines and all words that must be redefined.)
[1]. For those who don't know, St. Augustine had nothing to do with free will. The theory of free will was invented by the Roman Church. James Arminius never existed. John Wesley's theology is mostly Roman (baptism = regeneration) with a different pope. |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 4281
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 8:17 am: |
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Tatm, I liked it better when you were in the hobo camp and far from a computer. I have called Mr. Patel at the Motel 6 to ask him to please keep you off the lobby computer. There are donuts and Cheetos down the hall in the vending machine. Follow me my pretty; stay away from the computer....
Obnoxious is too kind an adjective for you. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1360
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 9:22 am: |
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termin8d
You specifically asked for me to discuss so I have replied.
....before we go any further lets get a few terms straight and basics out of the way.
1a)What do you believe about this statement? "God will not repent and believe for you!"
1b.)What is your definition of Grace?
2.) Does a person receive salvation by Grace or Faith?
3.) What do you believe about predestination?
4.) Though only floating around in religious traditions and not in the Bible what do you believe about the doctrine some call sovereignty of God?
Here's just a few verses to ponder?
Choosing making a free will decision for Christ?
"choose (decide) life...that you may love the Lord your God" (Deut. 30:19-20)
Choosing free will decision to repent of your sin?
"the men of Ninevah...they repented at the preaching of Jonah" (Mt. 12:41)
Believing on Christ?
"Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed." (Jn. 20:29)
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved,...". Acts16
"Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household." (Acts 18:8)
"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Rom. 4:3)
"even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ (Gal. 2:16)
"For we who have believed do enter that rest" (Heb. 4:3)
Have you accepted Christ?
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10
"But, as many as received (accepted) Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God" (Jn. 1:12) |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 734
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.229.6.252
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 9:30 am: |
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Hello, M(r)(s). matt_hatter:
May I have the privilege of thanking you for your inciteful remarks? |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 4282
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:33 am: |
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You know Tatm, your M(r)(s). thing is about as stupid and TRS's two nosehole joke.
It is interesting that the above named posters have this odd 'something' to them that would make me avoid them at all cost. Like I am going to do now. Sorry for the intrusion.
Have fun discussing 'grace'. How ironic. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 759
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.133.165
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:26 am: |
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So tatm. What about the person like myself who is so much more simplistic in my views on things such as grace. I don't know or care what prevenient grace or deviant grace is even. Its irrelevant to me I could care less what wesley or anyone else said about it, including whatever the Roman Church is.
All these big words and irrelevant people have nothing whatsoever to do with what I think. You can say something like you understand the roots of what believe better, but once again irrelevant to me. Now I can certainly support my beliefs with Bible, but that other stuff just confuses the issues and me.
I agree with hatter the "inciteful". Why must you, a called man with a ministry, intentionally irritate folks who ask you not to do that M(r)(s) thing? Would that be "insightful" or perhaps you are tatm the inciteful yourself? It really starts the discussion off poorly sometimes. Probably appropriate sometimes though, but not with termin8d, clearly to me a brother.
I'm going to see how this developes. That free will subject seems like a disaster waiting to happen to me. You've been trying to goad me into a discussion on that and I'm afraid I might be ill prepared to defend my beliefs on that one. I'll see how others fare before I enter if I do and get a feel for what those who do not believe in free will as I do believe.
Termin8d. Just tell me to shut up if I start going off topic or anything in this thread you started. I post in streaks and sometimes I go on rabbit trails or just lose focus completely in the midst of new people jumping in etc... |
matt_hatter
Senior Member
Username: matt_hatter
Post Number: 4283
Registered: 5-2006
Posted From: 24.214.93.12
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 1:34 pm: |
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May I have the privilege of thanking you for your inciteful remarks?
You are quite welcome. I have put a little extra St John's Wort in the hobo stew for your din-din. Enjoy, don't worry, be happy.  |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 681
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:00 pm: |
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trs. Thankyou for your post.
quote:...before we go any further lets get a few terms straight and basics out of the way.
1a)What do you believe about this statement? "God will not repent and believe for you!"
I agree that I need to repent and I need to believe, however none of that is possible unless God first regenerates me and replaces my stone heart with a heart of flesh. The condition of an unbeliever is dead in sin, completely rebellious toward God. So although I need to repent for my sin and God ought not to repent for my sin, only He can cause me to repent because without His grace coming in, I have no inclination to do so.
quote:1b.)What is your definition of Grace?
I believe that Grace is God Himself coming into man to be man's supply so that man may experience God, enjoy God and express God.
quote:2.) Does a person receive salvation by Grace or Faith?
It is the act of faith which justifies us yet this faith only comes by the Grace of God, it is not manufactured within us. So we are saved by faith through Grace.
quote:3.) What do you believe about predestination?
I believe that God exercised His free will and sovereignty to choose an elect before the foundation of the world. Those who were chosen by Him are those whom Christ died for and are guaranteed saved. It is thus 100% by the mercy and grace of the Lord that a Christian can say that he is saved. It is not because his heart was softer than someone else's, or because he had a greater aptitude to understand God's word, or because of anything that can be attributed to himself. Rather, the Christian is saved because God marked Him out and accomplished for him exactly what He intended for that person.
(Message edited by termin8d on November 10, 2007) |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 682
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:02 pm: |
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quote:4.) Though only floating around in religious traditions and not in the Bible what do you believe about the doctrine some call sovereignty of God?
I find it unfortunate that you consider "sovereignty of God" to be unbiblical. If your God is not sovereign then it seems to me that you cannot place any trust in Him. I take great objection to your position and would say that God's sovereignty is firmly established in the bible. Here are some passages which I believe make this quite clear:
Acts 17:26, Rom 9:11-23, Prov 16:9, Isaiah 43:10-13.
quote:Here's just a few verses to ponder?
Choosing making a free will decision for Christ?
"choose (decide) life...that you may love the Lord your God" (Deut. 30:19-20)
This verse gives the reason for choosing, which is to love God. It is not a choosing unto salvation but a choosing unto loving God. This is something only the regenerated elect are capable of doing, and it is only they who are capable of doing it because only they have received God's grace to do so. The elect are also capable of choosing death, that is to turn their hearts away from the Lord which drains out their love for Him. The verse does not in itself prove that the unregenerate non-elect are capable of choosing God. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 683
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:05 pm: |
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quote:Choosing free will decision to repent of your sin?
"the men of Ninevah...they repented at the preaching of Jonah" (Mt. 12:41)
I do not believe that it proves that God's grace did not cause them to repent.
quote:Believing on Christ?
"Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed." (Jn. 20:29)
This verse does not prove that God did not sovereign appointed the time for Thomas to doubt and then see and believe. This verse also does not prove that this kind of believing merited salvation because it was a belief based upon sight, and Jesus says that blessed are they who believe and do not see.
quote:"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved,...". Acts16
This verse does not prove that God's grace is not required first in order to believe.
quote:"Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household." (Acts 18:8)
This verse does not prove that God's grace had not come in to cause the household to believe.
quote:"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." (Rom. 4:3)
This verse does not prove that God's grace did not cause Abraham to believe.
quote:"even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ (Gal. 2:16)
This verse does not prove that God's grace did not come in first to cause their belief.
quote:"For we who have believed do enter that rest" (Heb. 4:3)
This verse speaks nothing about freewill.
quote:Have you accepted Christ?
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10
By God's grace (and thank God for that) I have accepted Christ yes.
quote:"But, as many as received (accepted) Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God" (Jn. 1:12)
This verse does not prove that God's grace is not required in order to receive Him.
None of the verses that you posted disprove the necessity of God's grace.
I would like to know, what you consider to be the underlying cause for you accepting Christ while someone else does not. Do you think that if circumstances were any different, that perhaps they would accept Christ and you would not? I'd be interested to know your thoughts.
(Message edited by termin8d on November 10, 2007) |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 684
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:11 pm: |
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the_apostolic_truth_ministries : Respectfully, I wish to decline entering a dialogue with you as I believe that your conduct is both dishonest and destructive. |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 739
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.229.6.252
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:19 pm: |
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I find it rather interesting that the original poster tried to blame "TULIP" on John Wesley. I don't know who the opposing view is from. To set the record straight, I give you the right flowers.
Wesley held to LILAC.
L = Limited Depravity
I = I elect God
L = Limitless atonement
A = Aresistible Grace
C = Carnal Security
T = Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints
The most respectable Wesley,by a long shot, was Mistress Wesley. Mama Wesley had fifteen or so chillens. That was in the late seventeenth century when they had kids the real way (no drugs). Hubby died early from TB. (Charles, I believe also had TB. He was bedridden most of his life anyway.)
Writing in his thesis on baptism, John Wesley stated that if your unbaptized child met an untimely demise, that child would bust hell wide open like a bullet (my paraphrase). In the novel, entitled "The Works of James Arminius", is a disputation on baptism. In that disputation, Mr. Arminius stated that not only did your underage child have to be baptized, but so did the child's parents. I seriously doubt anyone holds to Wesley's or Arminus' doctrine. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 685
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:21 pm: |
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Did anyone see that I tried to blame TULIP on John Wesley? |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 741
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 71.229.6.252
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 10:38 pm: |
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Quoting: "Freewill vs Total Depravity
Universal Atonement vs Limited Atonement
Conditional Election vs Unconditional Election
Resistable Grace vs Prevenient Grace
Falling from Grace vs Perseverence of the Saints."
End quote.
Preventient Grace is . . . "a Christian theological concept rooted in Augustinian theology and embraced primarily by Arminian Christians who are influenced by the theology of John Wesley and who are part of the Methodist movement. Wesley typically referred to it in 18th century language as preventing grace. In modern English, the phrase preceding grace would have a similar meaning."
Sorry Charlie. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 764
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.133.165
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:21 pm: |
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TATM- Do you have time now, to even finish a discussion about this stuff? Maybe you're just stirring the pot before you leave here in a very few days for another month or so and should wait till then to do so. Obviously you can post whenever and wherever you want, but I'm thinking you're out of here again in a couple of days for awhile and can't continue anyway, right? |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 686
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 4:52 am: |
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Hmm, I still don't see anywhere in my posts that I blamed Wesley for TULIP. For the record I just googled up to see what some ppl referred to the doctrines as which opposed tulip.
I could easily have written resistable grace or something else but I didn't. I still haven't seen any apology for falsely attributing trs's beliefs to be my own. In any case, it's rather disappointing that a supposed servant of the Lord would intentionally go around irritating others who are actually trying to have a meaningful discussion. It does show a somewhat lack of maturity in my opinion. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1362
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 9:06 am: |
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termin8d,
Gods grace is: God's unmerited favor.
2.) Does a person receive salvation by Grace or Faith?
temin8d states:
It is the act of faith which justifies us yet this faith only comes by the Grace of God, it is not manufactured within us. So we are saved by faith through Grace.
YOU MISQOUTE THE SCRIPTURES, AND MISTATE THE TRUTH. Look what Ephesians 2 states
You say we are saved by faith.
No No No That is not what the scripture states.
No, we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Not by faith through grace!
There is a very important difference.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grk:
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Grace and faith are totally dependent upon each other. These verses in Ephesians 2 show us that we are saved by grace through faith, not one or the other. I've heard many people who have centered their teaching on grace or on faith, but God's Word teaches us that they must be combined. Failure to do this has been the reason for much frustration.
First we have to have a common understanding of what these terms, grace and faith, mean. It is most commonly accepted that grace literally means God's unmerited favor. It is something God has accomplished for us totally without our help and independent of what we deserve. You can't earn God's grace.
Faith has many facets, and many, many books have been written trying to define it. In its simplest terms, faith is your positive response to God. Many sincere Christians have made a major mistake in thinking that faith is something that we do to earn or gain a positive response from God. God does not move in response to your faith. God has already moved through His grace, and your faith is simply your response to what you believe God has already done.
Let's take an example. Ephesians 2:8 says that we were saved by grace through faith. God, by grace, made an atonement for our sins. It was not based upon something we had done to deserve it. Quite the contrary, God commended His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8). It was totally God's grace that provided salvation.
But God's grace alone doesn't make salvation a reality in us. Ephesians 2:8 says it is by grace through faith. God's grace doesn't change us until we respond to it in faith. As we mix faith with what God has already provided by grace, then the miracle of the new birth takes place. But there must be grace (what God has already done) plus faith (your response to God's grace)..... |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1363
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 9:12 am: |
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....continued.
Titus 2:11 says that God's grace has appeared, or come, unto all men. If grace alone saved, then all men would be saved. But, you see, all men have not responded to God's grace in faith.
Your faith didn't make God move to provide salvation for you. It was provided by grace before you were ever born. This is the reason you were able to believe for forgiveness of sins so easily. All of the burden to produce was upon God, where it should be. Your only requirement was to believe. Your believing didn't move God. Rather, it moved you.
By His grace God has already blessed us with everything we'll ever receive from Him (Eph. 1:3). Faith changes us and circumstances and demons and puts us in agreement with God. But faith doesn't change or move God.
Many people who are becoming aware of faith today have made this mistake of thinking that God beholds our faith, and when it reaches a certain level, then He moves to answer our prayers. They think, "Lord, I've been fasting and praying. I've gone to church, and I've paid my tithes. Will you heal me now?" They are actually putting faith in what they have done instead of what God has already done through grace.
If we had approached forgiveness of sins that way, we would have never been born again. We came to God not on the basis of what we had done or with a bargain to present to Him about what we would do. But we came just as we were and put our total dependence on His grace (unmerited favor), and we received the biggest miracle we'll ever receive, the new birth. If we would continue to keep our faith in Him the same way, then we would continue to see the same results (Col. 2:6).
When it comes to anything, most Christians think, "I know He can provide this need, but I haven't prayed enough, or I haven't been living the way I should." Well, let me ask you this: When you came to the Lord for forgiveness of sins, had you been living the way you should? Had you fasted and prayed enough to earn God's unmerited favor? Of course not. Galatians 3:3 says, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" If we would just continue to put faith in God's grace, we would see every answer to prayer manifest in the physical realm.
God our Father has already provided everything by His grace. If you need somehing, God won't do it for you. He has already done it! He has already provide it in His Grace. When you pray , Jesus doesn't get off the throne and go do it. It's already been done. That's grace. All you have to do is respond to that grace in faith, and things will manifest what Jesus has already provided. Joshua 1:8 tells us that when we meditate in the Word day and night and observe all that is written in it, then we make our way prosperous, and then we have good success. God, by His grace, has already released His PROVISION upon every person on the face of the earth (Titus 2:11). But as we get in God's Word and act on it, it changes us so that we can receive by faith. God doesn't need to be changed; He's already on our side! The great provider has already provided everything and given it in His Grace. 2Peter 1-3
If you will put faith in God's grace, you will always overcome the world (John 16:33 and 1 John 5:4). |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 687
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 6:33 pm: |
|
Dear Trsinheaven. Thankyou for your responses.
quote:termin8d,
Gods grace is: God's unmerited favor.
I wouldn't disagree with that but I don't believe such a definition is fully adequate. In saying that, I do not believe that I also could give a satisfactory definition of grace because I believe that it is something quite deep. For example, Paul asked the Lord 3 times to have his thorn removed, but God replied "My grace is sufficient for you." I think to render its meaning as unmerited favour (which is almost synonomous with blessing) does not capture the full meaning of what God was trying to convey, which I believe is that by God being a supply to Paul, that Paul could overcome his "thorn".
quote:2.) Does a person receive salvation by Grace or Faith?
temin8d states:
It is the act of faith which justifies us yet this faith only comes by the Grace of God, it is not manufactured within us. So we are saved by faith through Grace.
YOU MISQOUTE THE SCRIPTURES, AND MISTATE THE TRUTH. Look what Ephesians 2 states
You say we are saved by faith.
No No No That is not what the scripture states.
No, we are saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Not by faith through grace!
There is a very important difference.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grk:
8For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Grace and faith are totally dependent upon each other. These verses in Ephesians 2 show us that we are saved by grace through faith, not one or the other. I've heard many people who have centered their teaching on grace or on faith, but God's Word teaches us that they must be combined. Failure to do this has been the reason for much frustration.
I would take exception to what you are saying. Although you are quite correct in quoting Ephesians 2 which says that we are saved by grace through faith, I do not believe that this ought to be taken as a strict formula. You use this passage to somehow prove that we are not saved through grace and by faith. I would submit to you that such an assertion is to put a theological strictness that the scriptures themselves do not attempt to do.
For example, In Acts chapter 15 verse 11 Peter says in his preaching:
"No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
Then Paul says in Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Romans 3:28 says :
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Here it says that a man is justified by faith, not through faith, nor does it say by grace. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 688
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 6:41 pm: |
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Interestingly, the bible interchanges between the use of by and through here:
Romans 3:30
since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
Ga 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Luke 7:50 -
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Jesus didn't say grace has saved you. If that woman was asked by someone "Did Jesus say that you were saved by faith?" I think it would have been perfectly reasonable for her to say yes. For someone to come along and say to her "Actually, you need to understand that you were saved by Grace through faith" is taking things a little too far. Again, I'm not pointing out these things to say that one is not saved by grace. Nor am I trying to say that one is not saved through faith.
But I do believe that the bible shows salvation by grace and through grace, by faith and through faith. I think it's a mistaken assumption to say it can only be one and not the other.
The point is that we ought not to be too legalistic in our use of prepositions that the bible is not. I would suggest that such insistence on terms and formulas come from tradition.
quote:First we have to have a common understanding of what these terms, grace and faith, mean. It is most commonly accepted that grace literally means God's unmerited favor. It is something God has accomplished for us totally without our help and independent of what we deserve. You can't earn God's grace.
As I have mentioned above, I do not disagree with such a definition, although I do believe that it falls short of it's full meaning.
quote:Faith has many facets, and many, many books have been written trying to define it. In its simplest terms, faith is your positive response to God. Many sincere Christians have made a major mistake in thinking that faith is something that we do to earn or gain a positive response from God. God does not move in response to your faith. God has already moved through His grace, and your faith is simply your response to what you believe God has already done.
I do not really have any disagreements with that.
quote:Let's take an example. Ephesians 2:8 says that we were saved by grace through faith. God, by grace, made an atonement for our sins. It was not based upon something we had done to deserve it. Quite the contrary, God commended His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8). It was totally God's grace that provided salvation.
Agreed. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 689
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 6:44 pm: |
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quote:But God's grace alone doesn't make salvation a reality in us. Ephesians 2:8 says it is by grace through faith. God's grace doesn't change us until we respond to it in faith. As we mix faith with what God has already provided by grace, then the miracle of the new birth takes place. But there must be grace (what God has already done) plus faith (your response to God's grace).....
Ok this is where I believe we part ways. I think there are some things we need to work through and expand upon.
I would like to reiterate my earlier questions to you which were:
1. What do you believe is the ultimate reason as to why you choose God and another person does not?
2. Do you believe that under different circumstances, you would end up not believing and people who are unbelievers now would otherwise be believers? Please explain..
I'd also like to put forward some other questions for you to get your take on these issues:
3. Was Jesus punished for the sins of any person who will later be punished for those same sins?
4. Who did Jesus buy with a price?
5. Does faith come from God or is it manufactured by man?
Thanks again for taking the time to have this discussion with me. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1368
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 7:00 pm: |
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termin6d
What do you believe is the ultimate reason as to why you choose God and another person does not?
There are a number of reasons and they are all found in the word.b Here are just a few but Romans 1 states "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Someone shares Gods word for salvation and "faith comes opening the spiritually blind eyes" "for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
Jesus says "the harvest is white but the laborers are few....pray ye there fore for laborers". Go into all your world and proclaim the good news with witnessing proof signs following confirming the word.
Some laborer prays that the spiritual "veil blinding ones spiritual eyes to the truth of the Gospel" in 1Cor4 and they are opened to see revealed Jesus as the way the truth and the life.
Gods word does not return void but is a double edged weapon sword separating the mind and the spirit... SEED producing a harvest. Mark 4
Another way is As Jesus says "SEEK Ask and knock, Seeking you will find, Asking you will receive, knocking" and Jesus will come in.
Romans 1 says all people have the knowledge of God written in their hearts and proven in creation but they harden their hearts to it by religious tradition, wrong teaching, fear, cultural bias, and not seeking God. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1369
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 7:00 pm: |
|
termin6d
What do you believe is the ultimate reason as to why you choose God and another person does not?
There are a number of reasons and they are all found in the word.b Here are just a few but Romans 1 states "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
Someone shares Gods word for salvation and "faith comes opening the spiritually blind eyes" "for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
Jesus says "the harvest is white but the laborers are few....pray ye there fore for laborers". Go into all your world and proclaim the good news with witnessing proof signs following confirming the word.
Some laborer prays that the spiritual "veil blinding ones spiritual eyes to the truth of the Gospel" in 1Cor4 and they are opened to see revealed Jesus as the way the truth and the life.
Gods word does not return void but is a double edged weapon sword separating the mind and the spirit... SEED producing a harvest. Mark 4
Another way is As Jesus says "SEEK Ask and knock, Seeking you will find, Asking you will receive, knocking" and Jesus will come in.
Romans 1 says all people have the knowledge of God written in their hearts and proven in creation but they harden their hearts to it by religious tradition, wrong teaching, fear, cultural bias, and not seeking God. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 690
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 7:33 pm: |
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trsinheaven: I continue addressing some of your quotes:
quote:....continued.
Titus 2:11 says that God's grace has appeared, or come, unto all men. If grace alone saved, then all men would be saved. But, you see, all men have not responded to God's grace in faith.
I do not believe that this verse literally refers to all men. Otherwise you might like to explain the situation of those who lived and died without ever hearing the gospel, or do you believe that people can be saved apart from the hearing of the gospel? I believe rather the context of this verse is the all men of verses 1 - 9 where you have God's people who comprise:
older men (v2)
older women (v3)
Younger women, husbands and children (v4)
Young men (v6)
Slaves and masters(v9)
quote:Your faith didn't make God move to provide salvation for you. It was provided by grace before you were ever born. This is the reason you were able to believe for forgiveness of sins so easily. All of the burden to produce was upon God, where it should be. Your only requirement was to believe. Your believing didn't move God. Rather, it moved you.
I was in complete agreement with your words until the sentence "Your only requirement was to believe." I do not believe that anybody can manufacture faith within themselves.
Why is it that one person believes and another does not? Do they flick on some kind of switch that other people don't?
quote:By His grace God has already blessed us with everything we'll ever receive from Him (Eph. 1:3). Faith changes us and circumstances and demons and puts us in agreement with God. But faith doesn't change or move God.
Did God bless everyone? When did this blessing take place? I do not believe that faith does not move God. Hebrews 11:6 says without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to God.
quote:Many people who are becoming aware of faith today have made this mistake of thinking that God beholds our faith, and when it reaches a certain level, then He moves to answer our prayers. They think, "Lord, I've been fasting and praying. I've gone to church, and I've paid my tithes. Will you heal me now?" They are actually putting faith in what they have done instead of what God has already done through grace.
I agree with much of what you say here, although you and I have a different view of what faith is. We also happen to have a different view of what grace is. Allow me to very roughly give you my position, which is that faith is Christ Himself revealing God to us for our experience and enjoyment. Grace is Christ Himself working Himself into our being to strengthen us to live and walk the Christian life. Love is Christ. Truth is Christ. Peace is Christ. Joy is Christ. Glory is Christ. Faithfulness is Christ. Righteousness is Christ. All these things are different aspects of Christ. Apart from Christ they have little meaning. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 691
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 7:34 pm: |
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quote:If we had approached forgiveness of sins that way, we would have never been born again. We came to God not on the basis of what we had done or with a bargain to present to Him about what we would do. But we came just as we were and put our total dependence on His grace (unmerited favor), and we received the biggest miracle we'll ever receive, the new birth. If we would continue to keep our faith in Him the same way, then we would continue to see the same results (Col. 2:6).
I believe that just as a child chooses the plastic toy over the diamond, so the unregenerate sinner chooses sin over God. I also liken the sinner to a drunkard with a gun. If someone doesn't come in and disarm him, he is going to harm himself and/or others.
I do not believe that God leaves the gun with the drunkard and hope that he won't shoot anybody and then praise them if they put the gun down, I believe that God himself comes in and takes the gun off that person. God is not a spectator, God actually does stuff.
quote:When it comes to anything, most Christians think, "I know He can provide this need, but I haven't prayed enough, or I haven't been living the way I should." Well, let me ask you this: When you came to the Lord for forgiveness of sins, had you been living the way you should? Had you fasted and prayed enough to earn God's unmerited favor? Of course not. Galatians 3:3 says, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" If we would just continue to put faith in God's grace, we would see every answer to prayer manifest in the physical realm.
I agree with what you are saying here, although I would say that every step of the Christian walk in faith depends upon the Grace of our Lord.
quote:God our Father has already provided everything by His grace. If you need somehing, God won't do it for you. He has already done it! He has already provide it in His Grace. When you pray , Jesus doesn't get off the throne and go do it. It's already been done. That's grace. All you have to do is respond to that grace in faith, and things will manifest what Jesus has already provided. Joshua 1:8 tells us that when we meditate in the Word day and night and observe all that is written in it, then we make our way prosperous, and then we have good success. God, by His grace, has already released His PROVISION upon every person on the face of the earth (Titus 2:11). But as we get in God's Word and act on it, it changes us so that we can receive by faith. God doesn't need to be changed; He's already on our side! The great provider has already provided everything and given it in His Grace. 2Peter 1-3
Yes, everything is already provided for us by God who is the life giving Spirit indwelling our spirit. And yes we do need to respond, but as for the unregenerate unbeliever, they do not have this grace within them. They need grace to come in and release them from the bonds of sin and death.
quote:If you will put faith in God's grace, you will always overcome the world (John 16:33 and 1 John 5:4).
Try walking around a graveyard and ask how many people want to have eternal life. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 692
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 7:44 pm: |
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trsinheaven:
quote:Romans 1 says all people have the knowledge of God written in their hearts and proven in creation but they harden their hearts to it by religious tradition, wrong teaching, fear, cultural bias, and not seeking God.
So you are saying that some of the reasons why you are saved and another person is not are because:
1. They harden their hearts and you do not.
2. They are caught in religious tradition and you are not.
3. They have the wrong teaching and you do not.
4. They have fear and you do not.
5. They have a cultural bias and you do not.
6. You have a seeking heart and they do not.
I on the other hand can only say that the reason why I am saved and another person is not is because of the mercy and grace of my God. I cannot think of any other reason why I am saved and another is not. This is where you and I have a great gulf between us in terms of theology although I very much respect you and extend my hand to you as a fellow brother in the Lord. I am also privaleged to be able to discuss these matters with you because my experience in Factnet has been one of difficulty in trying to have polite and reasonable discussions with others and I have found your responses to me to be of a high calibre.
Enjoy much grace  |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1371
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 4:47 pm: |
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termin8d,
You say why you are "saved and another person is not is because of the mercy and grace of my God."
That is not mercy to ALL at all. That is a biased God with respect of one person over another. That is choosing one person over another. The unBiblical and illogical predestination beliefs show God as an evil manipulator and you are His pawn.
This is just religious smoke hypocrisy not Biblical truth.
This is simply not validated by the scriptures.
Saved by putting faith in what God already accomplished with His love sacrifice becoming a man and victoriously paying all the penalty of sin for all, to make us "new sine skins" "new creations" "born again spritually from above" to bring us back into relationship and fellowhip by which he purchased and put in His free gift of Grace that he originally gave to Adam and Eve.
"We are saved BY Grace THROUGH faith" Eph
The answers I put in the last post to you was what you had asked of just SOME not all of the reasons why some are saved and others not. Everyone has the same opportunity but they harden their hearts to God.
What you don't seek out think on you become hardened to. Jesus said Ask seek and knock, and you will receive, find and given the open door.
This is a guarantee.
Lazy people don't seek, ask or knock or just give up and quit.
God is a Spirit the Bible states.
We are a spirit the Bible states.
Everyone who has been "born again" have been made new with new created Spirits in Gods image and by and of God. 2cor5
It takes the Holy Spirit to open a persons spiritual eyes and perception. It takes someone sharing the scriptures truth for faith to come, and someone praying for their eyes to be released from their spiritual bondage.
The scriptures clearly state this.
Jesus makes it clear that all those who are not born again made new are of the old nature not of God but are satans demonic fallen nature and connected with him.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:" Romans 6:6-8
"seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10And have put on the new man," Col 3:9-10
""be constantly renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh mental and spiritual attitude],
24And put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God's image, [Godlike] in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4
(An entirely NEW creation, one that never existed before, being born again of the spirit from above)
For as Jesus said in John 3 "that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
We received the spirit of Christ when we are born again but our mind is without knowledge and must be renewed in the knowledge of who we are and what we received.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new and all things are of God." 2 Corinthians 5:17
NOTE that you are not a flesh body but a spirit who dwells in a bod and if you do not have the new spirit of Christ you are not His.
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, ...
"unless you have the spirit of Christ you are none of His" |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 694
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 5:51 pm: |
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Dear trsinheaven. Thankyou again for your response:
quote:termin8d,
You say why you are "saved and another person is not is because of the mercy and grace of my God."
That is not mercy to ALL at all. That is a biased God with respect of one person over another. That is choosing one person over another. The unBiblical and illogical predestination beliefs show God as an evil manipulator and you are His pawn.
This is just religious smoke hypocrisy not Biblical truth.
This is simply not validated by the scriptures.
I believe that it is mercy because I should have been condemned to hell but I wasn't. Contrary to popular thought, God is not obliged to save anybody. There seems to be this concept that God has to offer salvation to everybody, otherwise he is not fair. According to this thought the objection is raised that if God simply picks one person and not another, and noone has any choice, then how can God place any responsibility on me? This objection is answered in scripture. Romans chapter 9 lays this case out for us:
8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."
10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.
As a context for the argument for predestination, Paul gives us the case of the offspring of Abraham: Isacc and Ishmael. One was the child of the promise (Isaac) and one was not. It was not because Isaac was good and Ishmael was bad. The selection was made before they had even been born as the scripture continues to tell us:
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."
13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
It is an offence to man that God's selection stands, yet this is precisely what scripture teaches. God has every right to elect one person and not another. He is not bound by you or I to offer election to both. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 695
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 6:15 pm: |
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At this point, to be theologically consistent with your position, you would take sides with Esau and complain to God for His unfairness:
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
You listed a number of reasons as to why you were saved and others are not. You talked about others hardening their hearts, the corollary of that is that you expect that you were saved because you did not harden yours. And yet here in verse 16 it says that it does not depend on man's desire or effort but on God's mercy. You raised the objection that it is not mercy that God selects one person over another, but I think that you have actually confused what the term mercy means. You somehow believe that you are owed something by God. You believe you are owed the opportunity to be saved by God, and somehow you think that this is mercy. I believe that none of us deserved to be saved. God owed us nothing because God is God, but He chose to save some anyway. That is mercy.
Let's continue:
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
You claimed that salvation was a matter of people hardening their own hearts, and yet here in verse 18 it says that God will harden those He wants to harden.
It may appear to be cruel and pointless that God would have mercy on some and harden others, but God is God and He has His plan and He has His ways. Our position is that of a creature, and we ought to bow down before God and amen His word. We don't simply agree with biblical passages because they cater to our personal philosophies or preferences.
We need to take in all of scripture and accept all of what scripture says, even if it is difficult for us to take. Believe me, I wish that God would save everybody and that noone would ever go to hell, but that is me and I am a fallible human being. My opinions are the product of my fallen human nature.
In the above verses, we see God also mentioning His sovereignty in raising up Pharaoh which was for the display of God's power. We saw time after time where God brought plague after plague upon Egypt after hardening Pharaoh's heart.
Will you plead Pharaoh's cause by saying that God should not have hardened Pharaoh's heart only to punish him for this hardened heart? You can man a pretty good case for both Esau and Pharaoh, but at the end of the day your case will fail because God is God and you are man. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 696
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 6:29 pm: |
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19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
This is precisely what we are dealing with here. Two cases have been presented thus far, and in both, God exercised His sovereignty and His free will to choose to have mercy or to withhold his mercy from someone. And the whole point was that this mercy was based upon God's choice, not because of any good action or any desire but simply God's choice.
Now we deal with your objection which is essentially the same as in verse 19 above. If God exercises His sovereign choice to harden or to show mercy, then how can he find fault with someone who had no ability to do otherwise?
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
The response is, as I have been saying again and again, that God is God. He can do whatever He wills to do and is not bound by His creatures. If mercy were something that were owed, it would not be mercy. God is the potter and we are the clay formed by him. No amount of arguing or screaming from us can change that, and I believe these verses are very humbling to the saved Christian. It shows the terrifying and awesome fact that God exercised His sovereignty to predestine me unto salvation. The words ring so clearly and profoundly that the first time I realised the significance, I prostrated myself before God. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1372
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 6:35 pm: |
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Your predestination manipulator using people as pawns only showing some people mercy is evil.
He may be showing mercy towards you but what about all the others.
This is your opinion and not scripture.
Christ suffered and died once and for ALL the Bible states.
NO. Scripturally stated GOD EXTENDS HIS MERCY TO ALL "to whosoever will accept and receive it". The choice is in your hands.
John 3:16 is so clear you have to have someone help you MISUNDERSTAND IT. God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only son, that WHOSOEVER WOULD BELIEVE IN HIM WOULD NOT PERISH...."
"THE WHOLE WORLD FOR WHOSOEVER WOULD" That means everyone!
God's will is that 'NONE SHOULD PERISH BUT ALL COME INTO relationship with Him the living God through Christ."
You are quoting about chosen people of the old testament old covenant persons chosen to carry out certain tasks if they chose to follow God.
Here is the new covenant!
Jesus says "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin
You shall love your neighbor as [you love] yourself, you do well.
9But if you show servile regard (prejudice, favoritism) for people, you commit sin and are rebuked
11For there is no respect of persons with God Romans
For God shows no partiality [[d]undue favor or unfairness; with Him one man is not different from another].
"knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." Eph 6
"knowing that He Who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no respect of persons (no partiality) with Him." Grk orig.
"and there is no respect of persons." Col 3
And [with God] there is no partiality [no matter what.
God extends His Grace FREE gift to all. God is fair to all. God does not vary. James 1
God is not evil nor does evil. James 1
The problem is with those people who for whatever reason will not receive. Just as when Jesus and later His disciples extended this free grace. Some still with hardened hearts refused.
Hardened hearts even stopped those from entering the promised land as did lack of knowledge and spiritual blindness. So today it still stops those from receiving until the light of Gods word is shown to them.
"Gods word is a light unto your feet and a lamp to your path" Psalms
if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4In whom the god of this world (satan)hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2Cor 4
It takes the light of the Gospel to be proclaimed to shine on a darkened heart(spiritual blindness) to illuminate and cut through the darkness.
Read Mark 4
JESUS SAID IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MARK 4 You will not understand all of His teachings.
Gods word is seed and satan steals Gods word the seed different ways. Some receive it and bear fruit who are not caught in the mistakes of the others that have it stolen from them.
31Then said Jesus .., If you continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.John 8:31-32
You shall only know the truth and be set free "IF YOU CONTINUE IN GODS WORD." |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 697
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 6:45 pm: |
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22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?
23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--
24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Here, the apostle reveals a glimpse of the purpose of God's predestinating which was to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy. It is not just a matter of being merciful to one group of people and witholding his mercy from another group. His purpose is a matter of making known the riches of His glory. There is more that could be said regarding that, but I would be tempted to place it in another thread.
quote:Saved by putting faith in what God already accomplished with His love sacrifice becoming a man and victoriously paying all the penalty of sin for all, to make us "new sine skins" "new creations" "born again spritually from above" to bring us back into relationship and fellowhip by which he purchased and put in His free gift of Grace that he originally gave to Adam and Eve.
"We are saved BY Grace THROUGH faith" Eph
I have already enumerated cases where the bible uses "through grace" and "by faith" as terms pertaining to salvation, and I won't reiterate as I don't believe that issue needs further discussion. Let's look at Adam and Eve. You have mentioned that God gave Adam and Eve the free gift of grace. I would like to explore this further.
Do you believe that it was planned by God or unplanned that Adam and Eve would fall?
I want you to consider this carefully, because you need to think about the consequences it has to your theology. I will await your response on this one before addressing it further. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 698
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 6:52 pm: |
|
quote:The answers I put in the last post to you was what you had asked of just SOME not all of the reasons why some are saved and others not.
I understand that, and I did not assume that you had provided an exhaustive list as to reasons why you think people are saved or not. I think that would be a rather impossible task for you to do.
quote:Everyone has the same opportunity but they harden their hearts to God.
In the verses I provided, God hardened the hearts. Why would it be so difficult for you to accept that God hardens whom He wills?
quote:What you don't seek out think on you become hardened to. Jesus said Ask seek and knock, and you will receive, find and given the open door. This is a guarantee.
Lazy people don't seek, ask or knock or just give up and quit.
I guess we have another qualifier here for a saved person which is to be a seeker. Yet the bible says that noone seeks after God. Why would those who are dead in sin actually seek after God? |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 699
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 7:17 pm: |
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quote:God is a Spirit the Bible states.
We are a spirit the Bible states.
Everyone who has been "born again" have been made new with new created Spirits in Gods image and by and of God. 2cor5
Amen. John 4:24, 2 Thes 5:23, 1 Cor 6:17 are among my favourite verses.
quote:It takes the Holy Spirit to open a persons spiritual eyes and perception.
You have to be careful here, because you are going to find yourself contradicting your theology. You need to be clear about what comes first. Is it really the Holy Spirit that is needed in order to open someone's spiritual eyes? Don't get me wrong, I myself have no problem with such a statement, but your theology does not allow for it, because you have stated that it is the man softening his own heart that is needed.
The problem here is this: You bring up the Holy Spirit as a prerequisite to the opening of the eyes of the unregenerate. Supposing that man exercises His free-will do deny God, we are left with the following conclusion:
1. An unregenerate man is able to see and understand the things of God.
2. A person who has a hardened heart can see the things of God.
Both of these conclusions run contrary to scripture which teach:
1 Corinthians 2:13-14
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The scriptures clearly state this.
quote:It takes someone sharing the scriptures truth for faith to come, and someone praying for their eyes to be released from their spiritual bondage.
What prompted the preachers of the gospel? Was it of their own accord or was it God's grace? I believe it is the latter. You see, my position is quite simple, I can readily and happily attribute actions and events to the mercy and grace or hardening of God.
quote:Jesus makes it clear that all those who are not born again made new are of the old nature not of God but are satans demonic fallen nature and connected with him.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:" Romans 6:6-8
And yet, apparently, we are to believe that those who are of Satan's demonic fallen nature and connected with Satan not only are able to see the things of God and understand them but also desire God. I believe in order for someone to see and understand the things of God and desire the things of God, they must first be regenerated by the Spirit of God whereby God replaces their heart of Stone with a heart of flesh. Please notice, it is not you softening your own heart and making your stone heart into a heart of flesh but God doing so. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 700
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 7:31 pm: |
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quote:"seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10And have put on the new man," Col 3:9-10
""be constantly renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh mental and spiritual attitude],
24And put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God's image, [Godlike] in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4
I like the verses you posted above. As for the first verse discussing putting of the old man and put on the new man, it is an exhortation for believers to daily walk in the new creation rather than old creation. An unbeliever is unable to do this because they do not have the Spirit of God within them that makes one new.
quote:(An entirely NEW creation, one that never existed before, being born again of the spirit from above)
For as Jesus said in John 3 "that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
We received the spirit of Christ when we are born again but our mind is without knowledge and must be renewed in the knowledge of who we are and what we received.
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new and all things are of God." 2 Corinthians 5:17
NOTE that you are not a flesh body but a spirit who dwells in a bod and if you do not have the new spirit of Christ you are not His.
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, ...
"unless you have the spirit of Christ you are none of His"
Amen, I like those verses too.
(Message edited by termin8d on November 12, 2007) |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 701
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 7:53 pm: |
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quote:Your predestination manipulator using people as pawns only showing some people mercy is evil.
I gather by this that you believe that God owes His mercy to everyone. Hmm seems to negate the whole meaning of mercy if it's something that is owed.
quote:He may be showing mercy towards you but what about all the others.
That's the whole point. I never asserted that God shows mercy to all. He is not obliged to. He is not bound to. Romans 9 makes it very clear that God shows mercy to whom He wills to show mercy and He hardens whom He wills to harden.
quote:This is your opinion and not scripture.
I have provided the scriptural material for your consideration in Romans chapter 9. I look forward to your exegetical presentation of the passages given.
quote:Christ suffered and died once and for ALL the Bible states.
NO. Scripturally stated GOD EXTENDS HIS MERCY TO ALL "to whosoever will accept and receive it". The choice is in your hands.
John 3:16 is so clear you have to have someone help you MISUNDERSTAND IT. God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only son, that WHOSOEVER WOULD BELIEVE IN HIM WOULD NOT PERISH...."
"THE WHOLE WORLD FOR WHOSOEVER WOULD" That means everyone!
Thankyou for providing your scriptural basis in John 3:16. I believe this verse is misused frequently by those who hold to a free-will theology. The verse simply means that everyone who believes will not perish but will have eternal life. This is not inconsistent with my position as it is true that everyone who does believe will not perish. This verse poses a problem for many who hold to arminian theology however as many of the believers eventually become lost.
quote:God's will is that 'NONE SHOULD PERISH BUT ALL COME INTO relationship with Him the living God through Christ."
According to your theology, God is unable to accomplish His desire. He fails often and Satan succeeds often. You end up with God having a partial victory and Satan having a partial victory. You end up with a God who is powerless to save those He intends to save, because He is not permitted to save them.
Not only so, but the very people who condemn the God who is sovereign and accomplishes exactly what He wills, worship a God who knows exactly who is going to be lost and who will be saved, and does not change the circumstances for those people so that they might be saved and just sits back and watches them perish. They worship a God who is a spectator and not a doer. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 702
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 8:08 pm: |
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quote:You are quoting about chosen people of the old testament old covenant persons chosen to carry out certain tasks if they chose to follow God. Here is the new covenant!
That simply is not true. Paul is discussing this in the book of Romans. The book of Romans is in the New Testament. Although it does mention people from the old covenant you are plainly wrong that it's discussing what will happen if they follow God. The whole point in the discussion was not about consequences of man's actions based upon free will, but rather the sovereignty of God and His right to choose. Note that the text says that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before the two were born, before either of them had done anything good or bad in order that God's selection might stand. The text disagrees with you. It had nothing to do with Jacob's works or Esau's works.
Note also, that it is not merely relevant to the Old covenant or Paul would not have needed to mention it in His book to the Romans. The words were also relevant to God's people in the New Covenant. This is clear because after talking about how some vessels are vessels of mercy while others are vessels prepared for destruction, in verses 22 and 23, he goes on to say in verse 24 "even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."
You need to read the verses in the context and get the meaning from the text rather than reading your presuppositions into the text. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 703
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 8:32 pm: |
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by the way xman3: I forgot to respond to your earlier post. I have no problem with your contributions, please feel free to jump in at any time bro. |
xman3
Advanced Member
Username: xman3
Post Number: 772
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 76.247.153.172
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 9:38 pm: |
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Thanks termin8d, but you 2 are doing fine here. Great discussion and great answers. It's like a mini boxing match here. Just when I think someone makes a point that looks hard to argue with, the other comes up with something good.
I'm kind of in trs camp on believing in this area, but you are making some excellent arguments. Real good stuff, both of you. TRS is pretty good at some of this stuff, but you are a tough cookie I can see. Well presented. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 704
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 2:07 am: |
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Thankyou brother. I'm happy to have this kind of opportunity where I can work through these issues with a fellow brother in Christ. I hope others will contribute to the discussion as well. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1376
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 1:32 pm: |
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termin8d
The Bible says "the entrance of God word BRINGS LIGHT" Gods word is what brings light to those in spiritual darkness.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10
You avoided these scriptures I posted.
Jesus says "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin
You shall love your neighbor as [you love] yourself, you do well.
9But if you show servile regard (prejudice, favoritism) for people, you commit sin and are rebuked
11For there is no respect of persons with God" Romans
For God shows no partiality [[d]undue favor or unfairness; with Him one man is not different from another].
"knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." Eph 6
"knowing that He Who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no respect of persons (no partiality) with Him." Grk orig.
"and there is no respect of persons." Col 3
And [with God] there is no partiality [no matter what.
God extends His Grace FREE gift to all. God is fair to all. God does not vary. James 1
God is not evil nor does evil. James 1
The problem is with those people who for whatever reason will not receive. Just as when Jesus and later His disciples extended this free grace. Some still with hardened hearts refused.
Hardened hearts even stopped those from entering the promised land as did lack of knowledge and spiritual blindness. So today it still stops those from receiving until the light of Gods word is shown to them.
"Gods word is a light unto your feet and a lamp to your path" Psalms
You AVOIDED touching these clear scriptures.
"if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world (satan)hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2Cor 4
There's the proof!
It takes the light of the Gospel to be proclaimed to shine on a darkened heart(spiritual blindness) to illuminate and cut through the darkness.
Read Mark 4
JESUS SAID IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MARK 4 You will not understand all of His teachings.
Gods word is powerful seed and satan steals Gods word the seed different ways. BUT Some receive it, are doers of it and bear fruit who are not caught in the mistakes of the others that have it stolen from them.
31"Then said Jesus .., If you continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.John 8:31-32
You shall only know the truth and be set free "IF YOU CONTINUE IN GODS WORD."
|
oneway
Advanced Member
Username: oneway
Post Number: 778
Registered: 1-2007
Posted From: 69.30.157.124
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 2:30 pm: |
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I don't mean to intrude here, but this is an interesting thread. I have a question or two.
trsrinheaven, to be honest I can go either way at this point. I can see where predestination appears to be a fact, and I can also see where it seems to contradict. In this thread, tho I don't fully agree with everything you write within, it does appears to me that your arguement is the most convincing thus far. So I have question or two for you. It's concerning the book of life from the foundation of the world.
Let's take note of a few things about this book. Revelation 3:5 seems to suggest that names can be blotted out.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 seems to suggest that there are names that are/were not written in that book from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is
Revelation 20:15 tells us that whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
Would you say that the book of life provides proof, or doesn't provide proof of pre-destination?
It appears this book was written from the foundation of the world. Three things we know. We know there are names written within, we know names can be blotted out, and we know some names were not written in it.
We should be able to conclude from scriptures, that is possible to be blotted out of, but.. do you think names can be added to it? |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 705
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 4:06 pm: |
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Dear Trsinheaven, thankyou for your responses:
quote:termin8d
The Bible says "the entrance of God word BRINGS LIGHT" Gods word is what brings light to those in spiritual darkness.
I agree that God's word does bring light to those in spiritual darkness, but that does not guarantee that those who see will perceive or those that hear will understand. In fact the bible says quite the opposite:
Isaiah 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.'
Matthew 13:14 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, `You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive
So even though God's light shines in the darkness, although people may hear God's word, it does not automatically follow that they will understand it. Now according to your theology, the salvation of an individual depends upon the individual themselves. So in the case of people not understanding, you might like to say that it is because they are intellectually lacking, or the gospel preacher's message was not very clear, or perhaps they have a lot of cultural, emotional, theological, philosophical or other baggage that prohibits them from understanding.
In this kind of theological world view, everything depends upon man.
So according to you, a person might not be saved because of His intellectual faculties, or a person might not be saved because the gospel preacher wasn't very good at preaching or whatever. This is to put salvation in the hands of man, whether it is in the hands of the one delivering the message, or the one receiving it or both. In the meantime, God has to sit back and just watch it all unfold because He is not allowed to invade the free-will of an individual.
I believe such a perspective runs absolutely contrary to scripture which teaches that God hardens whom He will harden, and He softens whom He will soften. He will allow some to understand, and He will cause others not understand. Ultimately, from my perspective, there is no room for man to take any credit for His salvation, even if it is 1%. I believe God is my savior, meaning He did all the work. He did everything necessary. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 706
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 4:14 pm: |
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Deuteronomy 2:30
30 "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.
Deuteronomy 28:28
28 "The LORD will smite you with madness and with blindness and with bewilderment of heart;
Deuteronomy 29:4
4 "Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
Deuteronomy 30:6
6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
1 Samuel 2:35
35 'But I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who will do according to what is in My heart and in My soul; and I will build him an enduring house, and he will walk before My anointed always.
All of these verses show God hardening and softening, giving and withholding understanding. In 1 Samuel 2:35 God says that He will raise up a faithful priest. It is altogether a matter of God raising up that person to be faithful, it is not a matter of a person being faithful in themselves. It gives an entirely different perspective in the way we consider God and worship Him, because we realise that absolutely anything good that might come out of us is because of Him. If I am faithful, it is because of God, not because I was especially exercised to be faithful. I needed God as my faithfulness. If I am kind, it is because of God as my kindness, not because I am kind in myself. If I show mercy it is because of God as mercy in me. All glory be to God.
11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,
12 so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing , they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven."
Do you agree that God hardens some people's hearts, causes them not to perceive or understand and to others He softens their hearts and shows them mercy?
I'd also still like to know how someone who has a heart of stone can soften their heart? Is it not God who gives the heart of flesh?
Ezekiel 11:19
19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Hebrews 8:10
10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
(Message edited by termin8d on November 13, 2007) |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 707
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:33 pm: |
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Trsinheaven:
quote:termin8d
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10
Thankyou for bringing up those verses. Clearly in the verses you presented it shows that for someone to believe, it requires a preacher. Therefore I would ask of you these things:
1. Has every person in every culture and every point in time in history been preached to?
2. What are the requirements of a good enough preacher such that the person they're preaching to will be saved?
3. In light of your reasons as to why some people are saved and others are not ( influenced vs not influenced by culture, hard heart vs soft heart, lazy vs diligent, etc) do you consider yourself to be more worthy of salvation than they and do you consider yourself to be better than those people? |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 708
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:35 pm: |
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quote:You avoided these scriptures I posted.
I do apologize for not addressing every single point in a timely manner. I have tried to allocate my time to present what I believe to be reasonable counter arguments to the materials you have presented. I will try if time allows to address your points and I am sorry if I do happen to overlook content that you post. It is not intentional for me to ignore anything you say. I value your input to this discussion.
quote:Jesus says "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin
You shall love your neighbor as [you love] yourself, you do well.
9But if you show servile regard (prejudice, favoritism) for people, you commit sin and are rebuked
11For there is no respect of persons with God" Romans
For God shows no partiality [[d]undue favor or unfairness; with Him one man is not different from another].
"knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." Eph 6
"knowing that He Who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no respect of persons (no partiality) with Him." Grk orig.
"and there is no respect of persons." Col 3
And [with God] there is no partiality [no matter what.
Thankyou for posting these verses. Please understand that it is not my position that there is anything in me that God respects more than another person. I have no more or less right to be saved than anyone else. I simply believe that God exercised His sovereignty and free-will to choose me, not because of anything I am or anything I have done but altogether so that He can establish His selection, not mine, just as was the case between Esau and Jacob (not based on their works as I have already shown with scripture), just as Isaac was chosen over Ishmael. It is not that God found something in Jacob better than Esau, or something in Isaac better than Ishmael. Rather it was purely of God's selection. I believe that is the consistent exegetical interpretation of Romans chapter 9. However, I do believe that from your perspective, it would seem that God favours those who are culurally unbiased, diligent, have a soft heart, and so on because ultimately those are the ones that end up being saved, and they have some cause to boast over the unregenerate, whether it be to do with diligence, intellect or whatever. I believe that is contrary to scripture as I have shown. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 709
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:37 pm: |
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quote:God extends His Grace FREE gift to all. God is fair to all. God does not vary.
I look forward to seeing your explanation regarding the preaching of the gospel to every single person throughout history, or do you believe that a faith in a generic creator God is sufficient? Also, looking forward to your answers to my question about Adam and Eve. Was their fall planned or unplanned by God?
quote:James 1
God is not evil nor does evil. James 1
Amen. God is not evil. He does not do evil. He does however harden hearts. Would you agree with this? He intended for the evil brought upon Jospeh by his brothers in order to accomplish a greater good, would you agree with this? He intended the most despicable evil brought upon His Son Jesus Christ for the greatest good, would you agree with this?
quote:The problem is with those people who for whatever reason will not receive. Just as when Jesus and later His disciples extended this free grace. Some still with hardened hearts refused.
Hardened hearts even stopped those from entering the promised land as did lack of knowledge and spiritual blindness. So today it still stops those from receiving until the light of Gods word is shown to them.
Again, I would like to see how you would deal with the verses that I have presented to you which have plainly said that God hardened people's hearts. He hardened Pharoah's heart so that He would refuse to let the Israelites to go, and then brought plague upon plague against Egypt, and why? For a greater good, so that He could display His power and glory.
quote:"Gods word is a light unto your feet and a lamp to your path" Psalms
Amen, it is, but that does not guarantee that all who read or hear God's word will perceive or understand. While you may like to repeatedly say that it is because of the individual themselves alone that they do not understand, I will repeatedly bring you back to scripture that says that God causes people to understand or not understand. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 710
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:47 pm: |
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quote:You AVOIDED touching these clear scriptures.
"if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world (satan)hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." 2Cor 4
I'm sorry if you thought I was intentionally avoiding scriptures that you posted. I am doing my best to address points one by one. The verse which you posted (2 Corinthians 4:13) says that if the gospel is hid it is hid from them who are lost. Then you qualify this with Satan being the one who has blinded these people. I suppose you use this in order to detract from the fact that scripture says that our Lord causes people to not understand or perceive. I do not deny that Satan blinds people. It does not refute my position. Simply by presenting that verse only serves as a supplement to what I've been saying, because you need to deal with this:
1. God prevents people from understand to some people and grants understanding to others.
2. Satan blinds people. These people are lost and the gospel is hidden from them.
If God causes people to not understand and Satan blinds people (without being prevented by God), then what are you going to say to these people? Are you going to tell them that they are not saved because they are lazy, stupid, culturally biased or whatever? Who blinded these people? Who allowed that person to blind these people?
You have to deal with these issues.
quote:There's the proof!
It takes the light of the Gospel to be proclaimed to shine on a darkened heart(spiritual blindness) to illuminate and cut through the darkness.
Read Mark 4
JESUS SAID IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MARK 4 You will not understand all of His teachings.
Gods word is powerful seed and satan steals Gods word the seed different ways. BUT Some receive it, are doers of it and bear fruit who are not caught in the mistakes of the others that have it stolen from them.
I'm sorry but you keep talking about light and understanding, but I have already shown to you that God is the one who gives understanding. Again, your perspective gives you reason to boast, in this case it is in your ability to perceive and understand things, while the lost cannot. The verse gives the reason why the gospel is hid from people, it is because they are lost, not because of their intellectual lack. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 711
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:50 pm: |
|
quote:31"Then said Jesus .., If you continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.John 8:31-32
You shall only know the truth and be set free "IF YOU CONTINUE IN GODS WORD."
I think your words now are getting more into the realm of perseverance of the saints vs conditional security. I believe that once a person is saved, they are forever saved and cannot lose their salvation. I do not believe that someone who attempts to use John 3:16 to somehow prove that God's salvation offered to everybody is being consistent when they say that salvation can be lost even though that very same verse says that that same "everyone" will not perish but have eternal life. I will expand more on perseverance of the saints in due course.
Getting back to predestination,I myself do not believe that God makes any mistakes. He plans for something, He achieves it. He doesn't have to back-track and think of another plan. This goes back to the whole Adam and Eve scene. Did God plan for Adam and Eve to sin or didn't He? And another recurring theme that seems to be ringing from your posts is this:
Unsaved people are unsaved because there was absolutely no possible way that they could have been saved because of their ______ [fill in the blank]. However I am saved because I am not like them. Even if God had created the universe 1000 times with different circumstances, those people would never have been saved, but I'm just so glad that I am saved because I am not like those people. You see, your perspective gives you ground to make yourself superior to other people. In my perspective, God only had to move His little finger and I would be lost for all eternity. I believe that everything hinges upon the mercy and grace of my Lord Jesus Christ. |
mburke
New member
Username: mburke
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 71.129.27.2
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 8:24 pm: |
|
This message board seems really limited in how one posts, making it hard to post large sections of Scripture for debate... so if you want the full texts of the passages, email me directly or head to Biblegateway.com.
Coming in on termin8d's side, just for some clarification. I ask that you meditate on the following. This is by no means exhaustive, it is simply a reference point, it is hard to pick certain verses and passages because there are so many that express the Reformed view (indeed, all of Scripture).
Notice however it is not one verse here and there, but vast swaths of Scripture that express what we believe:
Total Depravity (Inability)
People are sinful from birth because they were represented by Adam in the Garden of Eden, until they are graciously born again by the Spirit of God. We cannot see who is and is not elected, so we must preach to all the nations as commanded. Also, People are not born again by something they do, but by the power of the Spirit of God through the preaching of the Gospel. God uses the preaching of the Gospel to open the ears of those He has chosen. God uses the means of the preaching of the Gospel to regenerate people to life a new by faith in Christ.
Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Rom 5: 10-11, Ephesians 2:5, Rom 8:7-9
John 1:12-13, Rom 10:14-17
Unconditional Election (Salvation by grace alone)
All mankind is in the same boat, (there is not partiality with God) sinners all. Not a single one of us deserves salvation, we all deserve judgment. But God, being gracious and merciful elects to save some, not because of what they did, but because of His plan to glorify Himself. Those God elected from before the foundation of the world will surely come to Christ and be saved.
Eph 2:3-5, Romans 9:10-15, John 6:37-39, John 6:44, Eph 1:4-6
Limited Atonement (Particular Redemption)
The death of Christ on the cross actually saves sinners, it does not make sinners "savable". Christ's death was intended to atone for the sins of those the Father gives to the Son, and His death DOES SAVE.
Acts 20:28, Revelation 5:9, Romans 5:17
Irresistable Grace (God saves those He intends to save.)
God is not dependent on men to save themselves, or to avail themselves of God's mercy, rather God actively pursues and saves those He has elected to salvation and ensures their safety in Christ. God is not powerless, bound by time, but is the Creator of all things, including time and has planned all things for His purposes and glory. God is not clueless, unaware of what He has planned or what is to happen on the Earth. Nothing suprises God. In fact, nothing occurs on Earth that God did not predestine to occur.
Isa 46:9-11, John 6:37
Perserverance of the Saints
Those whom God elects to Salvation will be saved to the end, not because they were able to keep laws, or commands, but because God is gracious, merciful and loving and will cause them to perservere to the end. Perserverance does NOT mean "once saved always saved", but means that those who are true believers in Christ, will faithfully pursue him till they die, even though they may stumble.
Again, the point here is that Jesus doesn't make people savable, He actually SAVES.
John 6:37-39, Eph 1:11-14
I wish I could post the full text of the verses, however, they're too lengthy for this board. |
mburke
New member
Username: mburke
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 71.129.27.2
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 8:37 pm: |
|
As to "Satan blinding", yes it is true that Satan blinds people to the truth, however, God is not powerless. It is not as if Satan is anywhere near as powerful as God, in fact, consider the story of Job where God simply uses Satan as a tool to test, chastise and ultimately bless Job.
As with all Scripture, context is key. We see that it is God, ultimately who opens and closes people's ears/eyes/minds and hearts to the message of the Gospel:
Rom 11:7-9
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,
"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
Trsinheaven wrote:
quote:God is fair to all. God does not vary.
This is simply not the case... THANK GOD!
If God were "FAIR" to all of us, we would all go to hell because WE ALL DESERVE HELL.
God is not obligated to save anyone, but saves some according to His plan and purpose.
Romans 9:18
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Everyone is deserving of hell, but God GRACIOUSLY and MERCIFULLY saves many of us, not because we are owed it, or because we earn it, but because He has mercy.
Consider finally that there are millions who have never heard the Gospel preached and yet we know from Scripture that the only way to saving faith is by hearing the Gospel - "Faith comes by hearing..."
It is evident therefore that God is "fair to all" in one way, because He is just... that is, God has placed the sins of those whom He saves on His Son and has punished Him in their place.
Therefore, all sin is punished, either by sending a person to hell, or the punishment of Christ in a person's stead. However, for those whom God has punished Christ for, He is merciful.
Some get justice, believers in Christ get mercy. |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1377
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 2:27 pm: |
|
term8d,
You state:
Quote:
"Now according to your theology, the salvation of an individual depends upon the individual themselves."
NEVER NEVER PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, ASSUME THINGS, OR MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT ME that I have neve said.
it is begging the question and lieing to do so. If you want a proper discussion to continue this assumption practice will end it quickly.
I have NEVER SAID GOD WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE SALVATION OF ANOTHER PERSON.
Gods GRACE is already DONE and OFFERED TO ALL. Everthing we need including and in salvation is in Gods free gift of GRACE which is Gods finished accomplishment.
If it is not ALREADY in Gods GRACE you cannot have it.
It takes a persons freewill concious decision to receive that FREE gift of God.
Only the TRUTH will set you free. ONLY Gods word, the light of Gods word, that powerful sharper than any two edged sword Eph, will set you free from spiritual darkness.}
God has GONE TO GREAT LENGTHS, the greatest lengths, and done everything he could (except force or manipulation) to give man all that he needs to receive the transformation that will put him in RELATIONSHIP with God.
Man receives and even rejects God all on his own decision. Romans 1 points out all people have been shown, all people KNOW WHO GOD IS already in their spiritual DNA. They choose on their own free will to harden their hearts to God, to desensitize themselves, to become blind to this by "hardened hearts".
mburke,
God CHOSE to MAKE HIMSELF OBLIGATED to be fair to all and to make a way FOR ALL to be able to come into intimate RELATIONSHIP, true koinonia with God. Scripture bears this out as does Gods acitons.
Though you are not worthy, Christ chose to make me worthy.
"WHILE YOU were Gods ememy Christ died for YOU"
God no longer holds anything against anyone because God took all punishiment consequence for sin and disconnection disobedience upon HIMSELF while you were still HIS ENEMY.
6"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5 |
mburke
New member
Username: mburke
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 71.129.27.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:26 pm: |
|
quote:God CHOSE to MAKE HIMSELF OBLIGATED to be fair
No, God's law obligates Him to judge us as sinners. God does not have to nor does He extend saving grace to all human kind. Again God gets whatever God wants, if He wants to save a person, they will be saved.
quote:...to all and to make a way FOR ALL to be able to come into intimate RELATIONSHIP, true koinonia with God.
God doesn't make "a way" for people to be saved, He actually accomplishes his plan to "SEEK AND SAVE THE LOST". God does not make men savable, He actually saves. It is notable however, that you admit that God is not obligated to save anyone.
Again, God saves because He planned to before the beginning of the world, as it is written, "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act..." He saves a people He Himself graciously chose to reign with His Son. Again, if God were "fair" to all, we all deserve hell. It is GRACE we want, not fairness.
quote:"WHILE YOU were Gods ememy Christ died for YOU" God no longer holds anything against anyone because God took all punishiment consequence for sin and disconnection disobedience upon HIMSELF while you were still HIS ENEMY.
Strange for the Bible actually states that God DOES hold things against people, you yourself have quoted previously:
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:6
For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
So, contrary to what you have said, God does in fact hold sins against people and will repay them in judgment.
It is true, however that we can be saved from the wrath of God by faith in Christ. This is what Romans 5 speaks of.
Christ did die "for us", that is, as explained in verse 17, "For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
This is not applicable to all humanity, rather to "those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness", vs 9 also expresses "being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him..." It is only the justified who are saved from wrath, the rest abide in it.
Finally, Romans 5 tells us that we were, prior to God grace in our lives, enemies against him. Just like Romans 8 states:"... because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Compare this with verse 9: However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
So only those who have the Spirit of God in them (that is, regenerated believers) are friends with God, subjected to His law, and able and desirous to please Him. Thus with your mention of Romans 5, you've admitted an aspect of Total Depravity. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 712
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:27 pm: |
|
Dear Trsinheaven, thankyou for your response:
quote:term8d,
You state:
Quote:
"Now according to your theology, the salvation of an individual depends upon the individual themselves."
NEVER NEVER PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH, ASSUME THINGS, OR MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT ME that I have neve said.
it is begging the question and lieing to do so. If you want a proper discussion to continue this assumption practice will end it quickly.
There is little incentive for me to engage in making false assumptions. My statements regarding your theology were based upon logical deductions. I provided reasons as to why I believed that your theology ultimately depends upon man. If you believe that I am making logical contradictions or leaps of logic, it would be good for you to address the specific points that I brought up and expose the errors therein.
quote:I have NEVER SAID GOD WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE SALVATION OF ANOTHER PERSON.
Nor did I ever claim that you made such a statement. If you believe that I claimed for you to have said as such, I would appreciate citations of my doing so.
It would be unlikely that you would lend yourself to explicitly sublime statements. However, it is necessary to examine the logical consequences of your position. I believe that when we examine your position, it leads to the inevitable conclusion that the final arbiter of man's salvation is man himself, not God. That is not to say that such a position negates any role of God pertaining to the salvation of individuals, but such a role is not that of the determining factor of man's salvation.
If perhaps you will take a moment to understand why I made the comments that I did, you will realise that I was merely trying to point out that your position supports the notion that man is the final determiner of his salvation, and not God. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 713
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:29 pm: |
|
Allow me to use an illustration. Two children are drowning in a river, and then an adult comes along and throws two life jackets to the children. The life jackets have all the necessary safety technology in order to prevent someone from drowning. All the children have to do is put the life jacket on and inflate it and they will be safe. One of the children manages to reach over and put the life jacket on and inflate it, but by the time they have put it on, the other child has drowned.
You see, one of them had enough reach and strength to get to the jacket and the other one did not. It depended ultimately on each child as to whether or not they would be saved. Yes, the adult provided everything necessary in the form of a life jacket, so he was involved, no doubt about it, but he wasn't allowed to actually go in personally and save them himself.
From my perspective, the adult would have the freedom and ability to jump in and perfectly rescue both children. whether the children were strong or weak, thrashing about in the water or calm, he would be perfectly capable of saving any particular kind of person. Of course, to be fair, you would be right to point out that in your case, at least the adult might throw life-jackets to both children because he offers salvation to both whereas the one in my case might feel justified in only rescuing one of the children and purposely abandoning the other.
Although this illustration is limited in it's ability to communicate a complete representation of both our positions, I hope that it at least serves to some extent to convey what my comments were attempting to explain to you earlier. Let us transfer the illustration to the theological equivalents. From both perspectives, God is involved, that much is clear. However, obviously, the degree of involvement that God takes is different in either perspective. In yours, God makes salvation available. In mine, God actually fully saves the individual. In yours, for whatever reason, salvation may be lost because an individual did not meet some kind of requirement. In mine, salvation depends not on the individual meeting certain requirements, but on God choosing to save them. In yours, salvation is never secured because it depends upon the individual constantly meeting those requirements (the child could take his life jacket off for example, and then end up drowning like his friend). In mine the individual is actually saved perfectly.
I hope now you can understand that it was not my intention to assume that your position asserts that God has absolutely no role in the salvation of an individual. Rather, I believe, and I think you would have to agree, the involvement of God in your theological position is considerably lesser than that of my theological position.
I do not believe that I put any words in your mouth. I always to intend to quote you accurately, and if I make logical assertions, they are based upon what I perceive to be a logical deduction upon your theological position. I am not however asserting that you explicitly state such things that the deduction involves. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 714
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:31 pm: |
|
quote:Gods GRACE is already DONE and OFFERED TO ALL. Everthing we need including and in salvation is in Gods free gift of GRACE which is Gods finished accomplishment.
If it is not ALREADY in Gods GRACE you cannot have it.
Thankyou for your statements. I hope you do see the parallel now in the illustration that I gave. Everything is in God's grace just like the lifejacket in my illustration, now it's just a matter of getting that life-jacket on. The problem with this is that the life jacket doesn't automatically put itself on the child and for whatever reason the child may be unable to actually put it on (physically weak, too young to understand how to use a life-jacket, untrusting, hysterical, or whatever).
This parallels with some of the "reasons" offered as to why some people are saved and others are not, e.g. hardened heart, culturally influenced, lazy, etc.
quote:It takes a persons freewill concious decision to receive that FREE gift of God.
And this is what I was basically trying to show you. Ultimately, it depends upon man's free-will. I would still like to know a person who never heard the gospel can exercise their free-will to receive it. You already pointed out that it takes the hearing of the gospel to be saved. I agree. What about the free-will of the people of China before the missionaries went there to preach? You try to say that noone is without excuse as the bible says, and I agree. The verse however is talking about believing in a creator because God has made it plain from His creation. You still need to explain to me how someone can be saved apart from the preaching of the gospel since you are the one that actually told me that the gospel must be heard in order to be saved.
quote:Only the TRUTH will set you free. ONLY Gods word, the light of Gods word, that powerful sharper than any two edged sword Eph, will set you free from spiritual darkness.
Amen, only the truth will set you free. So what truth do those people have who live and die without ever hearing the gospel? They have the truth of creation, which points to the undeniable existence of a creator God. Is that enough ? Are you telling me after all that the gospel does not need to be heard in order to be saved? I'm looking forward to your response. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 715
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:33 pm: |
|
quote:God has GONE TO GREAT LENGTHS, the greatest lengths, and done everything he could (except force or manipulation) to give man all that he needs to receive the transformation that will put him in RELATIONSHIP with God.
In my opinion, you are painting a pretty bleak picture of God. It shows a God who tries and tries and tries, but fails. I think you need to seriously examine your position and answer these questions:
1. Did God create everybody with the foreknowledge of their circumstances, personalities, etc?
2. Did God know whether these people would be saved or not?
3. Is there anything God could have done to save these people without overriding their free-will?
You see, as I have said in the past, your position glorifies yourself and gives you reason to boast. I believe you are telling me that there was no combination of circumstances or situations whereby God could have saved these people, and yet you were able to be saved because of A, B, and C (whatever those reasons may be). Not only this, but you are telling me that Jesus Christ suffered needless punishment for the sins of those people on the cross, only to find that it was to no avail. Not only so, but those same sins for those same people are then judged AGAIN by God. So in effect you have a double payment for sins: First by the (apparent) Savior, and second by the sinner. According to my understanding this is an act of injustice. Why should the same sin be required payment of twice?
quote:Man receives and even rejects God all on his own decision. Romans 1 points out all people have been shown, all people KNOW WHO GOD IS already in their spiritual DNA. They choose on their own free will to harden their hearts to God, to desensitize themselves, to become blind to this by "hardened hearts".
These people already have a heart of stone. They didn't even need to harden their hearts, they were hard already. They didn't become blind they were born blind. They didn't need to desensitize themselves they already had what the bible clearly states as an incurable heart. Supposedly you beat the odds and now you're saved. Aren't you glad you're not as despicable as them?
quote:mburke,
God CHOSE to MAKE HIMSELF OBLIGATED to be fair to all and to make a way FOR ALL to be able to come into intimate RELATIONSHIP, true koinonia with God. Scripture bears this out as does Gods acitons.
How could He have made a way for all when He knew from the very beginning that some people would not choose Him, or are you saying that God didn't know that they'd reject Him? That's when you start getting into Open Theism. Please enlighten me so that I know whether you're in that camp or not. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 716
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:35 pm: |
|
quote:Though you are not worthy, Christ chose to make me worthy.
Umm, ok I hope that you made a typo there because you basically just said that you are worthy and mburke is not. For now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and interpret it as
"Although everyone is not worthy, God chose to make us all worthy"
Are you saying that everyone is justified but only some are saved? I'd like some clarification here please.
quote:"WHILE YOU were Gods ememy Christ died for YOU" God no longer holds anything against anyone because God took all punishiment consequence for sin and disconnection disobedience upon HIMSELF while you were still HIS ENEMY.
If God no longer holds anything against anyone, then you end up with universalism whereby everyone is saved. You need to be careful with the statements that you make. Did Christ actually take away anybody's sin on the cross or did He only make it a possibility that their sin could be taken away?
quote:6"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5
Take a look at that verse again because it is not helping your position. You are saying that we were all reconciled to God by the death of His son, yes? Well that same "we" are given a promise, that same "we" shall be saved in His life having been reconciled
Again please consider the verses carefully before you comment on them because I am happy to agree with every single verse that you post because they are consistent with my position. I also hope that you might interact a bit more with the materials that I have presented thus far.
Grace to you and peace. |
mburke
New member
Username: mburke
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 71.129.27.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:37 pm: |
|
What "free will" does the person in Romans 8:7-8 have?
"... because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
What is the difference between the person "set on the flesh" and the person "set on the Spirit" in Romans 8:9:
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. "
Do you believe that a person "set on the flesh" can obey God or please God?
Does faith please God?
(Message edited by mburke on November 14, 2007) |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 717
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 4:50 pm: |
|
trsinheaven, perhaps it would be good if we could formalize a written debate with a set format, number of words etc so that we could lay out our case and respond point by point to arguments made on both sides. Would you be up for this? |
trsrinheaven
Senior Member
Username: trsrinheaven
Post Number: 1378
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 71.194.182.119
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 11:11 pm: |
|
termin8d
"It is impossible TO PLEASE God WITHOUT FAITH" Hebrews 11:6
21"For our sake He made Christ virtually to be sin Who knew no sin, so that in and through Him we might become the righteousness of God [ approved and acceptable and in right stadning and right relationship with Him, by His goodness]." 2Cor5
Jesus did not come into this world to CONDEMN anyone! It sounds like you and mburke are the condemning brimstone types.
Jesus condemns no one. People who reject Chrit are already condemned.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:17
God loved all and came into the world so to make a way for all to come into RELATIONSHIP with God.
"The goodness of God, Gods kindness, sharing Gods love, Gods nature of love, leads all to repentance" not condemnation. Romans 2
"God IS love" 1John 4:8
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19We love him, because he first loved us. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 950
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.236.150.133
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 11:19 pm: |
|
mburke,
With all due respect, Calvinism is not widely accepted worldwide.
I am from apart of the country where Calvinism is very prominent. I have recently left ministry, all for great reasons, in a non-denominational/Charismatic setting (very conservative Carismatic setting). My family and I have started attending a church with roots in the Reformed Church of America (RCA).
The main difference in this church is that it is more evangelical than its Calvinistic siblings. We enjoy it very much.
My issue with Calvinism is their understanding/interpretation of the terms "election" and "predestination". |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 718
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 3:45 am: |
|
Dear Trsinheaven, thankyou for your post. I will not provide an immediate response to the verses you have just posted as I would like to give you ample opportunity to be able to interact with the material I have posted thus far. I have done my best to address all the points and verses that you have raised and I would appreciate if you could reciprocate. I know there is a lot of material for you to respond to so I will allow you to take your time to do so.
If on the other hand you'd like to take me up on my offer to have a formal written debate which can be done through email and then finally posted up here, I'd be happy to interact with you on these issues in that way. Please let me know how you would like to proceed.
If others address me with questions or comments I will respond to them, but regards to your posts, I will wait until you feel you satisfactorily responded to my material before providing a rebuttal. Since bear has addressed his post to mburke, I will allow mburke to respond to him.
Much grace. |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 784
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 1:08 pm: |
|
I'd like to add my two pennies.
I've been involved with debates like this in the past. Eventually I arrived at the conclusion that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is completely true. However, where the balance lies between the two I have never quite been able to figure.
I have always seen the core of the debate to be whether man truly possesses free will. In this respect I am in Calvinism's corner. Seems to me that if man fell in the garden then he would have had to fall completely rather than partially or even mostly. Arminianism argues that man's free will was the single aspect (the "image of God" as the Arminian would argue) that did not fall in the garden. I find that there is at least a philosophical conundrum with such an argument, however:
If man did not become totally depraved at the fall, then logically it seems that there is an aspect within man that is greater then the power of sin. Either that, or God somehow intervened in the fall event to preserve man's free will. Well, if God had simply intervened in the process of the fall to preserve man's free will, then He would have been complicit in the process of the fall itself. We know that to not be true.
If there is a power within man (his free will) that is greater than the power of sin, then logically man would always choose to do good. Or, at the very least, he would work to please God. Then, if the good pleased God, salvation would be in the working out of a number of provisions and laws.
TBC...
(Message edited by loverofchrist on November 15, 2007) |
loverofchrist
Advanced Member
Username: loverofchrist
Post Number: 785
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 24.117.99.166
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 1:30 pm: |
|
Penny #2:
Does man truly possess an inviolable free-will?
The Arminian might argue that God would never violate man's created free-will and force salvation upon man. Salvation has to be a choice, otherwise the love and devotion which naturally comes from salvation would be pure. True love, after all comes from choosing to love another and true devotion is uninfluenced.
As I see it there are a few problems with that argument, however:
1) The Bible never argues such a position - anywhere. The Bible does not argue free-will at all. It never claims that God would not violate man's free-will, nor does it argue that man must exercise his free will to obtain salvation.
2) There is evidence in the Bible that God has violated man's free-will. First, in Soddom, God leveled the city by raining fire and brimstone down upon it. "True" you might say, "But how is that evidence that God violated man's free-will? Well, it's simple: What human being desires to die if given the choice? Regardless of their sin, the people of Soddom were judged by God and paid the ultimate price for their sin - against their will to live.
Some might argue that the people of Soddom gave up their right to live when they continued to violate God's law. While that may be true, that nonetheless does not prove that the people of Soddom did not have the will to live and the will to continue on as they saw fit. God therefore violated their will to live when He executed his judgment upon them.
3) In the Exodus story God never gave his people any choice to stay in Egypt. Thererfore, He violated their free-will by commanding them out into the wilderness as a people. And even despite their murmuring and complaining God cut off the way back to Egypt and drove them through the desert to arrive eventually in the land that he promised to them. Therefore, God violated the free-will of those that desired to turn back to Egypt by keeping them in the desert - even for 43 years.
If man has true "free-will" then he should have the ability to choose anything that he so desires. In terms of salvation, then, man could choose to be saved one day and choose to be "unsaved" another. So it is man who holds the reigns of salvation, not God. God, in the life of the Christian, becomes a secondary player in the role of salvation.
Since we know that man has no power or authority over God, man cannot be "in charge" of his own salvation. Therefore, man can not possess a true "free-will" because evidence in the Bible proves otherwise. |
mburke
New member
Username: mburke
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 71.129.27.2
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:20 pm: |
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Bear:
I never suggested Calvinism was "widely accepted". In fact, I believe that sloppy evangelicalism that has little real connection to Biblical doctrine other than perhaps the Trinity (and I bet that is up for grabs now days as well.)
It is true the RCA has its roots in Calvinism (R standing for REFORMED), it is tragic to see that most denominations have departed from anything that causes them to be definable in a sea of rampant post-modernism and subjectivism.
I also believe that it is a false dichotomy to say that one is Calvinistic or evangelistic. (Perhaps that's not what you're saying.) Since Calvinism believes that God saves by the power of the preached word, it is imperative that Calvinists PREACH to the whole wide world that the elect might be saved.
quote:{My issue with Calvinism is their understanding/interpretation of the terms "election" and "predestination".
Well, there's only so many understandings. I've attempted to show what Calvinism believes and why, based on an overview of Scripture wherein God is ultimately powerful, just and sovereign. If you have specific issues with this overview, why not share it with us?
Thanks!
Micah |
mburke
New member
Username: mburke
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 71.129.27.2
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:30 pm: |
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loverofchrist:
I find any discussion of "free will" generally attempts to adopt some understanding wherein God is a prisoner of time, or at least subjected to it. Thus most "Arminian-esque" evangelicals attempt to view God as "looking through the tunnel of time to see what choices man will make". I think Isa 46:9-11 blows such a view away completely.
God states in Scripture that whatever He plans comes to pass. Thus, how can "free will" be anything but an illusion ultimately.
Also, Calvinists recognize that people make all sorts of decisions every day, it is clear that while God has predestined all that is to come to pass (Isa 46 again), He does so for a reason. For example, I might choose purple socks today, which will cause me to engage in a conversation with someone who thinks that's odd (and who wouldn't?) At some point I begin to tell them of Christ and they come to faith... What if I didn't pick those purple socks?!
Also, Arminians (and the Arminian-esque) often pray that God will 'bring their friend to faith', so they actively ask that God violate the "free will" of their friend. Most prayers of the Arminian involve God violating the free will of people, the course of time, and the nature of the universe... all which would, in some way, violate "free will".
Calvinists, however, recognize that since God has purposed all things that occur for His ultimate glory, we can pray with faith that He will accomplish what is best. We might pray for someone's salvation, and know that God may be using our prayers as a means to accomplish just that. When something doesn't happen according to our prayers, it is not because God somehow failed, or that we didn't pray hard enough or in the right key, but that God has a bigger, better plan than our short-sighted minds can comprehend.
quote:neither Calvinism nor Arminianism is completely true.
I believe this is a fallacy ... ;) I believe if one denies Calvinism they must fall within a some category of Arminianism, that is, they must accept one of the many forms thereof. Most people who claim a "third choice" often accept Arminianism (under some other name) or go completely Open Theist, denying that God controls or knows the future.
I do appreciate your discussion of "free will", and I wonder what you make of my mention of Romans 8:7-9. Perhaps you might read over it carefully and let us know.
Thanks!
Micah |
mburke
New member
Username: mburke
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 71.129.27.2
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:50 pm: |
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trsinheaven:
It seems you believe these verses you post somehow contradict what we believe, however, random posted verses do not an argument make.
quote:Jesus did not come into this world to CONDEMN anyone! It sounds like you and mburke are the condemning brimstone types. Jesus condemns no one. People who reject Chrit are already condemned.
It would be preferable if you asked us what we believe rather than assuming it. I certainly agree that when Christ first came he did so to "seek and save the lost", however, Christ also states that God has given over all judgment to the Son.
John 5:22
"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,"
Christ's purpose in coming the first time was to provide Salvation for all who would believe, however, when He returns it will be for judgment. (Matt 25:31-32)
Since all the verses I posted state, contrary to your claim that "God no longer holds anything against anyone", that God indeed does hold sin against people, they remain condemned of their sins because they have failed to take hold of the remedy from God's wrath, the Lord Jesus Christ, by faith.
Finally it is notable that you seem quite fond of misquoting, and selectivly quoting the Word of God. Let me warn you that Scripture itself declares that such activity is punishable by the fullest extent of God's wrath. Let me quote the Romans 2 passage in its entirety:
Romans 2:3-5
But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and olerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
The proper understanding of this passage is evident: God has made His presence e vident in all of creation (Romans 1:20) yet man has, in his sinful state, chosen to deny God and lie about Him, worshiping idols and created things (Rom 1:21-23). God therefore has given mankind over to "degrading passions" and therefore they worship and serve other men, and their own bodies in sinful ways.
Paul warns the Jews, and other moralists in Romans 2, that they will not escape God's wrath either, if they pass judgment on the depraived Gentiles while breaking God's law themselves. The evidence of God's mercy is shown in his patience toward evil doers, and in His exposing them to His Word. Their rejection of Him only proves that they are "storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath".
Yes, God not only holds sins against people, but justly intends to punish them for them, unless they take hold of Christ by faith.
You seem intent, however, in taking verses intended for the church as applying universally. There is no reason for this, when Paul or another Biblical writer states something, there is a context and a specific audience in mind. You would do well to take note of this and properly express this when quoting Scripture. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 952
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.236.150.133
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 7:41 pm: |
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mburke,
I appreciate you response. I did use the terms Calvinism and Evangelical for distinction only.
I believe the elect to be those who choose to follow Christ. I do not see, in the text, any chosen/non-chosen, except for an individuals choice. When the text speaks, only in one place, of the wicked being destroyed or made to be destroyed for God's pleasure or purpose (I am paraphrasing), I believe that through the whole of scripture, the wicked choose to not follow God, and are therefore placing themselves in that position.
Note: I belive that all verses must be intrepreted through the corpus of texts dealing with that particular doctrine/topic.
I belive that God has predestined us; that is, he has a plan for us, should we choose to follow him.
Strict Calvinism teaches that those who accept Christ are the elect; those out there chosen by God, while those who do not accept Christ, do not do so, because they are not predestined to receive. |
mburke
New member
Username: mburke
Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 76.20.112.132
| | Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 9:45 pm: |
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quote:I believe the elect to be those who choose to follow Christ.
So you believe individuals "elect" themselves? Have you ever heard of a president electing themselves?
quote:I do not see, in the text, any chosen/non-chosen, except for an individuals choice.
Eph 1:4-5
...just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.
2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
quote:When the text speaks, only in one place, of the wicked being destroyed or made to be destroyed for God's pleasure or purpose (I am paraphrasing), I believe that through the whole of scripture, the wicked choose to not follow God, and are therefore placing themselves in that position.
All mankind "chooses" to not follow God because they are of their father Adam. Until they are graciously and mercifully brought into the family of God, by Christ, not by their own choice, they are in Adam.
Why do you simply repeat your claims? When faced with the many verses I and termin8d have provided, you have only made statements about what you believe.
quote:I belive that God has predestined us; that is, he has a plan for us, should we choose to follow him.
Again, the Scriptures that that God gets whatever he wants (Isa 46:9-11), if you believe He wants us to follow him, how is it possible for God to fail.
I would hope that someone reading this forum might actually interact with the text of Scripture, rather than simply posting their own subjective feelings over and over.
(Message edited by mburke on November 17, 2007) |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 719
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 8:40 pm: |
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Bear, XMan3, TrsinHeaven: I was wondering if perhaps you had a chance to take the time to examine the scriptures and offer some interaction with the points made by myself and Mburke. It's been a while since we had some input.
Grace and peace.
Termin8d. |
bear
Advanced Member
Username: bear
Post Number: 968
Registered: 4-2005
Posted From: 24.236.150.133
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 12:07 pm: |
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Good day, termin8d and mburke,
I wll be happy to do so,later today, for I must get off the comp. in a few.
However, I must state that to anyone who belives in "limited atonement" there will be an automatic disjunction in the interpretation of the text.
Mburke, through my own doing, has mistaken my view based on the terminology I used about "choosing". I say my own doing, for I failed to interact with the text, and stated my view in a very simple, common fashion. I was asked to give my view without a preface to include the texts sited.
Example, mburke posted: If you have specific issues with this overview, why not share it with us?
That is what I did.
Therefore, the statement: I would hope that someone reading this forum might actually interact with the text of Scripture, rather than simply posting their own subjective feelings over and over. should not have have applied to me here.
Now, I will be more than willing to give an expository response, however, my response will not be based on "limited atonement", and will therefore always be at odds with your established belief system, rooted in conservative Calvinism |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Advanced Member
Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries
Post Number: 847
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 12.217.145.168
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 2:11 pm: |
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Mr. Bear:
Perhaps one day will can find a place to discuss the subject. Mr. Termin8d's position is not strict Calvinism, but a false understanding of Wesleyanism. Free Will is an invention of the Roman Church, not Evangelicalism. |
termin8d
Advanced Member
Username: termin8d
Post Number: 720
Registered: 7-2005
Posted From: 60.234.129.189
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 5:33 pm: |
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Tatm: I am a TULIP man. I believe in total depravity, unconditional election,limited atonement, irresistable grace, and perseverance of the saints. If you had taken the time to actually read the posts that I have put up, you would realise that. I will concede however that I made a typo at the top of this thread whereby I accidentally wrote "Resistable Grace vs Prevenient Grace" instead I meant to write "Irresistable Grace vs Resistable Grace". When I was starting this thread, I wanted to find what the Arminian counterpoint was against Irresistable Grace, and I found a few sites mention Prevenient Grace, so I just used that.
To my fault, I accidentally used that word to replace Irresistable Grace. Nevertheless, I had never even once stated that I believed in prevenient grace, so you have actually misrepresented my position.
Perhaps you would like to deal with the posts that I and Mburke have written thus far so as to give us an idea as to what your thoughts of TULIP are. I will be happy to discuss these matters with you so long as you stick to the topic and avoid nasty ad-homs and misrepresentations. And I'm still waiting for your apology for your attributing the quote I made of Trsinheaven's words as being my own personal belief. |
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