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D. B.
| | Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 2:17 pm: | 
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I was an alcoholic, but now i am revived.
I started concetrating on investing. Helped focus me a little. I find if I help others my need for the juice is just not there anymore.
Plus now my money spent on the booze goes to making money!!
Good luck to you all. !!!
If you want to learn how to do what I do and you think this is good therapy that may interest you drop me a line and I will try and point you in that direction !!!
GO A.A. !!!!!! |
daniel
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 5:21 am: |
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I really agreed whit the guy from the top.I used to go a group named NEUROTICOS ANONIMOS GRUPO BUENA VOLUNTAD this group was a 12 steps based program.Im not really sure if every organization based in a 12 steps is the same but mine definitely a sect (this group can be as EMOTION ANONYMOUS mexican version.....At the beginning everything was ok.....through the days they told me that i was in need of more time in the group.evry day i was going 6 hrs. to the meetings,I was obligated to tell the true about my actions (if you dont say the true a pshycal response would be come for being dishonest like a paralized leg or pimples on arms.it was an incredible but a real fact) i had sex but i never ask for permission to my sponsor and immediately i got in panic and obsseive pain and lost like 40 pnds.....I tried to leave the group when i saw i was in danger but they told me if you leave the gruop youll hyave only 3 ways.jail..psychiatric hospital or the cemetery.....I was obligated to bring money every month and not to tell people about what i was doing there..some people was retained and punished by not following the rules....NEUROTICOS ANONIMOS BUENA VOLUNTAD was the most terrific nightmare in my life.....When I strted thinking about this group as a cult was when I found we had a charismatic leader which they called EL GUIA he was living in Mexico City and at least you should go to visit him every two times a year this meetings where named CONGRESO which generraly where performed in expensive hotel in turistic areas( as a member you supose to go and growh spiritually just listening AL GUIA(charismatic leader) not going was a punishment for sure......I really thing that the way they work is telling you that you are a bad person.once you create in your own mind the you are the worse person on the planet, a monster( at the beginning they say that god took you there because your father raped up you but you dont evenb remember and then they "help you to cut off with the bad dependencies (in this case your family or partener or wahtever becsause the group its the only support...finally they make you believe that you are nothing without the group....people bring their own lives and money$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$to the group and go very two years to see and amire the GUIA (CHARISMATIC LEADER) in mexico city...i found that i was getting worse evry day and my GUIA a rich man.........please WARNING ........NEUROTICOS ANONIMOS GRUPO BUENA VOLUNTAD has been entered to USA they have gruops in SEATTLE WASHINGTON,TUCSON,AZ and Chicago ILLINOIS..I finally scaped from the gruop when I asking them to come to Tucson,AZ and at the time I visited EMOTIONS ANONYMOUS and they told me that the group NEUROTICOS ANONIMOS BUENA VOLUNTAD was a cult because emotions anonymous doesnt requre people to stay there for 6 or 10 hours a day,they don ask for money and basically they dont control peoples mind.....Im so proud about me already because I gave a big step......an step to the FREEDOWN....actually Im taking counseling and psychological therapy for a healing even slow but finally im FREE........I alert to the people trough my story to not let influence by NEUROTICOS ANONIMOS GRUPO BUENA VOLUNTAD.......unfortunatelly at the time there are not laws in the USA taht control or regulate these 12 steps groups........PLEASE.........this is a WARNING |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 3:13 pm: |
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...Spam regarding Darwin Fish deleted by Administrator... |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 01, 2003 - 4:19 pm: |
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I wanted to quit drinking, so I quit hanging out with drunks.
When I went to AA, I met more drunks.
Now that I dont hang out with people who drink, it is not a social thing to do, so therefore I dont drink. Not even last night, although I did have a glass of wine at my friends Hannuka party, you know when in Rome..I am actually Catholic.
So I can't consider myself a "recovering addict, because I dont even think about alcohol anymore.
Havent drank in 7 years. |
R. Romero
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 5:28 am: |
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Is AA a cult? I honestly don't know. But after a recent brush with the organization, I will say it is a dangerous one. Aside from there extremely poor success record, their endless litany of guilt and encouragement of lifelong self-recrimination, they encourage ongoing personal weakness in it's members under the guise of a "harmless" religious basis. My wife was required to attend as part of an employment agreement. Neither she, as an admitted alcohol abuser for several years, or I as a non-drinker, had any previous contact with the organization. After returning from the first meeting, she was obviously disturbed by what she had witnessed there. Most disturbing was the requirements to begin the meeting with the lords prayer, and admit a need for the infamous "higher power." As confirmed atheists, this is of course, foolishness to us. She had refused to say the prayer or accept the doctrine of "higher power." I advised her to continue going, get what she could from the meetings and ignore the rest. After all, we live, work, and are related to folks who hold religious beliefs, with no friction, every day (for the most part). However, as the weeks went on, the "group" became more and more aggresive towards her, concerned not with her addiction, but with her belief in no supreme being. Finally she had to stand up for her heart-felt beliefs...she left AA, after which she was pronounced in violation of the employment agreement. She offered to attend any other recovery program, but was told only AA is qualified to provide this type of care. She refused, and was fired. Certainly there are those who will feel justified by this because after all, "she's just an addict." Putting that ignorance aside, she was fired, in the U.S.A., because of her religious convictions. Therein lies the danger of AA. Because it has managed over the years, to dupe legal jurisdictions, medical communities, and businesses into believing it's pathetic recovery mantra, it has become an arm of the Judeo-Christian monolith in this country. Because a woman chooses, in a supposedly free society, not to believe in the convoluted fairy tales of religion, she is considered less than worthy of help. Bad enough being an addict, but an atheist addict...I'm surprised we weren't both stoned! She instead entererd the Rational Recovery program and has done stellarly in the months since. Is AA a cult? Could be. Is it a bunch of crap? Absolutely! Can it be a danger to our Constitutional rights as citizens? It would appear, worst of all, that it can be that. Down with AA! |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 5:34 am: |
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Sounds like your wife's employer fired her not AA. |
R. Romero
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 5:42 am: |
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She was fired because she refused to compromise her religious beliefs by continuing to attend AA. Freedom of religion is still a right in this country, at least that's my assumption. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, January 06, 2003 - 9:05 pm: |
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You are right. An atheist should not be forced to except God. And a believer should not be forced to say there is no God. Although I am a believer, I understand now what you are saying. Your wife's employer was wrong. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, January 23, 2003 - 7:50 pm: |
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hm. interesting. I think that AA as a whole does have some old-timer religious aspects to it. i for one am not in agreement with that. however your wife's attending meetings (why did she agree? why was she asked to attend?) where she was religiously pressured sounds contrived to me. unless you are in the midwest, at a meeting of primarly old folks, then I am tending to view your post with some suspicion
especially the "down with AA" part. very revealing.
in my town (berkeley. we are mostly liberals and radicals at my meeting) anyone can adress or choose not to address the existence of a "higher power" as they wish. many people in bay area meetings are avowed atheists. some are buhddists
some refuse to identify as anything.I am sorry that that meeting, that any meetings pressured her to recite the lords prayer. but let's qualify
was she actually pressured?
and another question.
why dosen't your wife post this instead of you?
I find that strange.
but on the whole, good work! keep asking questions. but please, wholesale condemmnation of the entire AA body is not fair. we are so many people that NO ONE MEETING REPRESENTS OUR ENTIRE BODY. period. that same philosophy could be used to condemn this entire country and this entire world of amything. generalizations just are not an effective tool for discovery. there are in fact atheist 12-step meetings. look them up.
yours truly,
cultbuster |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, January 24, 2003 - 5:31 am: |
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There are some college level courses where attending AA meetings is a requirement of the class. The student is given a list of times and places to choose from. They are to attend the meeting as if they were themselves alcoholic. If anyone asks they are to say they would rather just sit and listen rather than speak. When they return to their class, the instructor asks questions about the meeting or meetings they attended. This is to make certain they did in fact attend. I thought this was such a dishonest thing to do. I learned this from my sister who was required to do this for a psychology class.
I really don't think AA is a cult. But there are always some people who are bad news in any group and AA is no different. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 11:57 pm: |
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Here's a test for any AA member who is questioning the practices of the fellowship. Ask yourself: 1)In my group(s), are there oldtimers that I am afraid to contradict? 2) In my group(s) do "old timers" and wannabe "oldtimers" laughingly discuss "the half measures row" (the back row) or use other similar derogatory terms for "newcomers?" 3) In my group(s) are people criticized for not having a sponsor or home group? 4) In my group(s), is anyone criticized because they refuse to take part, make coffee, come to meetings, etc. (because theoretically you never say "No" to AA requests)? 5) In my group(s) are there a high proportion of people who are obviously emotionally/mentally ill or imbalanced, (beyond alcoholism) that I wouldn't trust to be in my home or around my family? (Would you see this high of proportion of mentally ill at your work, church, Kiwanis Club meeting?) 6) In my group(s) is it normal to be forgiving of everyone, including ex-cons who are murderers and pedophiles? 7) In my group(s) are non-AA members referred to as "Normies." 8) If someone walked into my regular meeting today and stated,I have 10 years of continuous sobriety and I no longer believe in God, would that person be termed a "dry drunk." 9) Finally, as an AA member, do these sorts of questions make you uncomfortable and or defensive?
I would think that a "yes" answer to any of these questions is grounds for further self-examination. For heavans sake, don't ask your Sponsor about this or you'll be required to "hit your knees with a 3rd Step," read p. 86 - 89 and p. 449 daily, work another 4th step and/or find a newcomer to work with immediately. You might though read the text of Alcoholics Anonymous carefully. You'll find that the book doesn't mention Sponsors, 90 meetings in 90 days, no relationships in the first year, tokens, birthday cakes, "keep coming back, it works" followed by a hand squeeze, etc. A lot has been added to AA. Ask your sponsor about that but only after you've read the book yourself. Use your brain as Bill W. suggested. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 1:19 pm: |
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AA brainwashes. The same phrases are repeated over and over until it sounds like fact. Scientific fact. It's not. It's amazing how many intelligent people get converted to thinking that is not based on ANY scientific data. The American Journal of Medicine estimates that AA's success rate (people achieving sobriety for more than a 12 month period) is no greater than 5%. Rational Recovery's success rate is 70%. Do the math. 'Keep coming back, it works.' Yeah, it works. For 5%. Does anyone mention that at your meetings? If you've quit drinking and have been sober for a decade, but you're not in AA, you're a 'dry drunk'. What garbage. If you've quit smoking for a decade, (also an addiction), you're an ex-smoker, or a non-smoker. My favorite is the duping of the medical establishment which claims an addiction to alcohol is a disease. Why isn't smoking a disease. What medical professionals squirm when that question is put to them. I predict within the next decade there will finally be a debunking of AA and its basic assertations, and an understanding that addiction to substances can be controlled and stopped by the addicted individual alone. If you are in AA, open your mind. Read about other options and methods to quit drinking for good. Do not believe everything you hear, simply because it's said over and over. That smacks of propaganda. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 12:25 pm: |
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This is moronic and offensive to see AA listed on a cult WEB site. However it is free speech.
Simply. This is a spiritual program. If one lacks the critical ability to differentiate from a spiritual program with a cult - then you can say the United States of America is a cult. Anything where there is an alliance of people.
AA is not a cult (and herein lies the definition of one) because: 1) there are no dues or fees 2) they do not promote or advertise or proselytize or invite - they do not care whether you come to their meetings or not 3) only you (the alcoholic) can determine whether you should go to a meeting 4) there are no leaders in the meetings - they lead by group conscience 5) you do not have to wear any particular clothing (like Lifespring) 6) you do not have to show up at a certain time, fact you do not have to show up at all (unlike Lifespring) 7) you can join one day, quit right after the meeting, then join whenever you wish (unlike Lifespring) 8) fact there is nothing, absolutely nothing required to show up at a meeting except a desire not to drink (that day) 9) the meetings only promote the 12 steps which are merely self reflective questions and an acceptance of a god of your choice - it is a spiritual program where not one person can assert authority, make you sit in your chair - they do not even care if you work the 12 steps. You can get drunk that afternoon and go back the next day as long as you have the desire (not the success) of staying sober.
You are a moron if you can believe this at all matches the qualifications of a cult which employs mind control techniques through jargon, stress oriented exercises, uniform dress, charismatic leaders, hidden dues and fees, promotion of message or registration. Obviouisly you have not been affected by either one. Go to an AA meeting, then go through Lifespring training and you will know the difference. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 8:34 am: |
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Don't know if AA's a cult or not. I don't think so, from all the established definition's of the word. But the fact is, it does take something extreme to save people from a drug that will kill them.
What is clear, is there is no stronger 'cult' than Alcohol/Drugs. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 2:33 am: |
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While reading the discussions on the Scientologists, Moonies, Bond Slaves, etc., I was somewhat surprised to discover that some enlightened soul saw fit to count the evil cult of AA amongst their ranks. While I have no experience with the former groups, I was, in a moment of weakness, lured into the nefarious clutches of Alcoholics Anonymous and was insidiously brainwashed by their malevolent members. Not only that, but the effects of that brainwashing are still with me.
Some 15+ years ago, despite a very good education and a well paying career, drinking took over my life. Despite losing my family, my friends, my job and every material thing I owned, I was quite content to drink, and drink, and drink. Although I was alone, broke and virtually homeless, I was really quite content with my lot; I had the freedom to drink all day, every day! Who could ask for more??!! My bliss was only interrupted when I became seriously ill and was hospitalized. They had to pump me full of tranquilizers to keep me from dying of the DT's. Some scheming AA cult members, mercilessly taking full advantage of my weakened mental state, insisted on visiting me in the hospital and, using their ill-gotten mind control tactics, actually got me to consider that I might be an alcoholic. Can you imagine that??? ME!!! The blatant nerve of those sinister evil doers!!! My tale of woe gets worse too. They befriended me and, not having a single person left in my life, I fell for this well planned plot and (gasp) attended a diabolical AA cult meeting. They said I had to keep coming to these wicked gatherings as well. Although I did try to escape from the clutches of this horrid cult a few times, my sinister sponsor, using evil AA mind control tactics, lured me back into the cult each time. Finally, I succumbed to this monstrous cult, sheepishly admitted I was an alcoholic, and began to work the notorious 12 steps. That was 15 years ago and I didn't drink anymore after that.
The AA cult really changed my life. I fully reconciled with my family. I fully rebuilt my career and have been enormously successful. I am very active in my church (the normal, non-wacko variety). I am happy, healthy, have a bright future and enjoy life.
Yes, so far that evil AA cult has cruelly deprived me (and everybody around me) of 15 years of living hell. I've personally seen it do the same for many, many, many others as well. Yeah, there ought be a law against these guys.... |
KEITH MOONs liver
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 2:14 am: |
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This is the stupidest club in the world. I don't understand these people that go to meetings for 20 goddamn years. I mean, if I break my leg and it heals, I don't talk about it for 20 fuckin' years. Get over it and go on. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 9:50 am: |
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Get with it...... read the information again....
KEY WORD IS
SUGGESTED STEPS TO FOLLOW |
TommyPerkins
| | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 6:10 pm: |
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12-Step Coercion Watch
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/ |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 6:52 pm: |
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I don't know where you got your information from, but you certainly don't have a clue about Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues, therefore I will not comment on your misguided information except to say that you should perhaps talk to an oldtimer and attend a few meetings. It should set you straight. AA would allow you to leave at any time that you choose. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 1:13 am: |
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Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! This is about the funniest thing I've read all week!
I don't have the patience to read all these posts, but I want to add a few things anyway. If it hasn't been added already, the only idea of "God" that is "pushed" at meetings is that YOU'RE NOT IT, BUDDY! So quit trying to run the show! And in response to "if I break my leg and it heals, I don't talk about it for 20 fuckin' years. Get over it and go on." the reason I keep going to meetings after almost 8 years is #1 to be there for a newcomer, and #2, I LIKE seeing the friends that I've made there, and since my life is so full now as a result of my recovery, I don't have the time to see them outside of meetings!
In response to (in the original post) "There is one treatment and one treatment only for alcoholism, and AA is it.", you will find on page xxi in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous the following quote, "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly."
I liked what was mentioned about "anybody from off the street can call themselves an AA member, and right away, take part in b uisness meetings, and have a vote on any and all AA buisness matters." I want to add AA's Tradition #4, "That each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole."
Yea, I think the original post was written by a real dimwit. Perhaps an alcoholic himself who in an alcoholic fog attended one meeting and came to these brilliant conclusions. By the way, that's the opinion of Adrienne, not Alcoholics Anonymous as a whole!
Adrienne B - too flippin' lazy to register
Sob date 6/5/95 |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 1:25 am: |
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I grew up in a cult til I was 18,and I have almost 10 years sober in AA.AA is definitely not a cult....Some sick people in AA try to create subcultures w/in it....But no one person or group is in charge....You have freedom, I did not have that growing up in a real cult!!!! |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 11:11 am: |
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If it were not for AA I would not be happily married to a wonderful man with 2 beautiful children. I think it has alot to do with the personality of the individual within the group. My husband has been sober for 15 years has not attended a meeting for 5 or so years but is a healthy fully functioning adult there are some beautiful people in AA just as there are in other walks of life and then there are the obssessors. Also AA restored an off the street out of lock down on heavy anti-psychotics to sanity. And yet another in my family it has driven him crazy. He claims that every answer in life is in the Big Book even child rearing issues, the guy runs around and plays God 3 out of 3 sober 1 cult like personality taking it to the extreme, 2 healthy and fully functioning. Some people just take it and go the wrong way with it. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 12:24 pm: |
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How do you figure the 5% success rate? Seems a lot higher to me.
Since you just show up but don't have to sign up for a membership, and its anonymous (duh!), how could anyone possibly know how many people tried and failed.
Try joining a REAL cult, like scientology for example, and see how much "freedom" you have to make choices about your life, share what you want, and keep to yourself what you don't wish to share.
Because everyone is welcome, all kinds of personalities can end up in AA, and you get some strange ones. Hey, if you don't like it, try another meeting.
Or quit. Change your phone number. End of story. Try that with scientology! ha ha ha! |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 2:44 am: |
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I was involved with AA for years, when I was younger I went through that period that unfortunately alot of people go through when they are younger. Basically partying and hanging out with the wrong croud. I thought that I needed AA. When I got to AA my self worth went down and when I left the group I began to drink worse then ever. I finally got my heart right with the Lord and the God got me sober. AA is a destructive organization and has the earmarks of a cult. I know I was very involved with AA for years. I could tell you story upon story but wont. If you know someone in AA try and get them out of it. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 10:23 pm: |
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A lot of interesting posts about AA... I think AA is a tremendously useful place to go to get sober. When I came into AA, I had no idea how to get alcohol out of my life, and seemingly no hope was in sight. As a result of uncontrolled drinking I had lost friends, been arrested, hospitalized for alcohol poisoning, and was getting worse with each day. I decided to try out a meeting out of desperation, and was surprised to find that just one meeting WORKED -- I saw that I was not alone in having alcohol-related problems, and saw that peoples' lives were much improved when they decided to get sober. My desire to drink was rapidly erased. I decided to get sober, and stayed sober, and lo and behold everything got better. I thought this was great -- I had my self-respect back, my mental faculties came back enabling me to get my life back in the right direction, I made many sober friends to spend time with (especially the weekends), I was able to pay off debt, etc.
It was great. I loved AA, deeply and profoundly, and obediently started to go to meetings on a daily basis. I got a sponsor, and started studying the Big Book and working the steps. I helped out newcomers, participated in "service", and happily referred to myself as an "alcoholic".
But then a new kind of depression came over me -- I was told that "We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition." And of course to do this, one must attend meetings daily, pray in the morning, and pray in the evenings. One must continually recite to oneself "Thy will be done", and turn over one's will to God. It's not a religious program, it's just spiritual, right? Step 2 talks about a Power greater than ourself, right? But then step 3 suddenly refers to the "Power" as God. Nice try, but this is clearly a religious program.
The philosophy is as follows: alcoholics are powerless over alcohol because a doctor in the 1930's (Dr. William Silkworth, M.D.) asserted that "most chronic alcoholics are doomed", and "something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change [for recovery]." "The only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence." "[Alcoholics] were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control."
Simply put, none of these assertions are supported by this little nuisance known as Science. I started to do some research, and found out that other methods using cognitive-behavioral techniques have just as high success rates, and only expect people to attend 2 or 3 meetings a week, for a year at most. People who attempt to quit on their own, with no outside help whatsoever, seem to have the highest success rates. The phenomenon of craving has no physiological basis, and is entirely psychological and treatable. Much success has been made with teaching people to drink in moderation through the group Moderation Management. This group claims that for every true alcoholic there are 5 "problem drinkers".
All these opposing claims are difficult to make sense of, but it does seem like it is an extraordinary commitment to meet AA's expectation of attending a meeting every single day for an entire lifetime. This is in addition to the suggestion of removing all contact with former friends. While at meetings, one is encouraged to "Identify, not compare," and told "Don't think, go to meetings." The Big Book tells alcoholics that they cannot distinguish the true from the false.
This all makes it very easy to adopt an extremely passive attitude towards life, and it is quite common to find long-time members who are doing menial jobs, smoking a pack a day, and accomplishing nothing in the real world.
The AA environment is a fantasy world created for recovering alcoholics, and it does make achieving sobriety easier. But it is all too easy to fall into a cycle of endlessly going to meetings and reliving the past, feeling deep regret and remorse over it, then laughing and sharing pride in the new joy that has supposedly filled up their new life. The problem is this new joy is all too often used only to maintain an existence consisting of merely not drinking.
The main problem is that the Big Book makes bold, exaggerated claims which instill fantastic fear in the "alcoholic", and when it "works" makes them devote their entire life to maintaining sobriety. The reason such excessive involvement in the program is necessary to maintain sobriety is because the system of recovery is not based on scientific facts, and is based mainly on putting all faith into an invisible Man in the clouds who will take care of everything if the faith is just strong enough.
The format of meetings has a hypnotic quality -- members recite the preamble, passages from the book, and a prayer at the end in unison, holding hands. The speakers delve into their pasts and discuss openly all their wrong-doings as drunks, and confess all their sins. The stories are quite captivating since each and every person in the world can relate to cheating, lying, and being selfish. Since we are urged to admit we are alcoholics if we can "identify" with the speakers, then pretty much anyone who comes to a meeting in a desperate state will "discover" that they are an alcoholic. And without a spiritual remedy, the other options are insanity, prison, and death.
I've made many separate points here, but basically my assessment is this: AA is a cult, but a well-meaning cult. I don't believe that Bill W. intended to manipulate anyone into adopting Christian views, but somehow started a tradition that is so captivating to anyone in a desperate-enough state to come to a meeting, that its message is spread far and wide quite easily. The format of the meetings ensures this, and the program specifically requests spreading the message to all suspected alcoholics. It's a program of recovery that works in the short-term for its intended goal, but produces a subculture, an isolated society, that is basically useless to the rest of society, and perpetuates the myth of alcoholism as a chronic progressive disease. Research has shown that it is none of the above. It is a maladaptive response that can be corrected with a whole lot less fuss than AA would care to admit, simply because of the die-hard devotion its members have to it. Get sober if you need to, and go to AA if you like the format, but then get on with the rest of your life! |
engine31
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 12:59 am: |
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RIGHT ON!!!! I was pleasantly surprised to see this included on the boards. I am a current AA member, have been sober for over six years, but, what makes me different than most AA's I encounter is that I refuse to give up my brain just because I'm in AA. Yes, my own head is my worst enemy at times, but I treasure my intellect and even while a drunk I was still a thoughtful, introspective person. I wasn't capable of doing much, but I was still able to think, and discern.
I loved what was previously posted, that AA is a sub-culture that is fantasy, and that those in AA don't strive to make differences in the "real world." I have seen many examples of this, people who only want to go to meetings, and spend their leisure time at AA events, and revolve their life around AA. I didn't like this idea from the very beginning, I really balked at the "90 in 90" that they were strongly suggesting. I knew even then that although I needed AA, and yes, I was happy to be there, I wasn't going to stop my life to just be in AA. Sometimes I worried that I was rationalizing myself right into a drink, but now that I've got some time together, I see that I did what was right for me, and although I didn't always use the best judgement, or had difficulty in seeing the reality of things, my desire to LIVE was right on. I needed AA as much as I did in the beginning, and for that reason I agree that AA is a cult, but a well-meaning cult. There are ALOT of things I do not like about AA, but there are ALOT of things I do like about AA.
Another important thing I was very aware of from the beginning is that First, I am a human being, THEN I am an alcoholic. I remember being in meetings early on and talking about how I am an individual, with many different facets, and I refuse to ignore them just because I am ALSO an alcoholic. Not JUST an alcoholic, as AA would like you to be. I remember getting flack for my beliefs, but I held fast, as I still do now. I hated the "we are not unique" crap that they would spout off. I understand their point, but I still despised the saying.
Another person posted that people don’t judge in AA, and that noone is abused in AA. I have to scoff at these statements, I see rampant judgement and abuse in AA all the time. People judge each other on how they work their program, how they are acting, even how they look. And abuse? I’ve seen fights, people knock each other to the ground, and people screaming in each other’s faces. AA, is not a “safe” place, by any means. You really have to be made of tough stuff to stay in AA, and not let those that are under-handed drive you out. Many times I wanted to leave because of the people in AA, but I always went back because if there’s one thing that’s true about me, it is that I am stubborn. I feel that I have something to offer, and I can help others who want my help. I’ve been told numerous times that I’ve helped many people, and for that reason alone, I stay. If I left, then that would be one less voice of objectivity, and humanity, in the rooms. I think often that if I had heard someone like me when I was first getting sober, my getting sober experience might not have been so rough. So, I “take what I need, and leave the rest.” Literally. |
Melissa
| | Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 1:27 pm: |
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In response to an earlier post:
Here's a test for any AA member who is questioning the practices of the fellowship. Ask yourself: 1)In my group(s), are there oldtimers that I am afraid to contradict?
NO
2) In my group(s) do "old timers" and wannabe "oldtimers" laughingly discuss "the half measures row" (the back row) or use other similar derogatory terms for "newcomers?"
NO
3) In my group(s) are people criticized for not having a sponsor or home group?
No, they are not criticized. This is a suggestion, as all things are in AA
4) In my group(s), is anyone criticized because they refuse to take part, make coffee, come to meetings, etc. (because theoretically you never say "No" to AA requests)
NO
5) In my group(s) are there a high proportion of people who are obviously emotionally/mentally ill or imbalanced, (beyond alcoholism) that I wouldn't trust to be in my home or around my family?
NO
(Would you see this high of proportion of mentally ill at your work, church, Kiwanis Club meeting?)
Yes, there are many mentally ill people who can work, and they are just as likely as "mentally healthy" people to be part of these groups.
6) In my group(s) is it normal to be forgiving of everyone, including ex-cons who are murderers and pedophiles?
Yes, thankfully there is a place where people realize that you can change, and dont have to be stigmatized for life for past wrongdoings.
7) In my group(s) are non-AA members referred to as "Normies."
Yes, this refers to the fact that they can drink/use without the consequences that some of us have experienced.
8) If someone walked into my regular meeting today and stated,I have 10 years of continuous sobriety and I no longer believe in God, would that person be termed a "dry drunk."
No, a person's spiritual belief is their own to seek out. You don't have to believe in God to get clean.
9) Finally, as an AA member, do these sorts of questions make you uncomfortable and or defensive?
No, the thing in this person's post that I take great offense to is the statement "are there a high proportion of people who are obviously emotionally/mentally ill or imbalanced, (beyond alcoholism) that I wouldn't trust to be in my home or around my family?"
This statement shows an obvious stigmatizing of the mentally ill.
Before I quit using I was a member of a cultish group (the united pentecostal church) who told me I would go to hell for attending AA. But I had to do something because I could not stay clean in that church. When I first started going I had a hard time with the fact that I was allowed to search out my spirituality for myself. I had never been given that freedom.
I've read a lot on this site about how some people think the suggestions given are given to try and control people, and I have to respectfully disagree. I was told over and over again that these were suggestions, and when asked people would explain the reasoning behind the suggestions, but I was never forced to do anything against my will or believe what the other person believed.
Respectfully, I submit that if you go to an AA meeting and hear someone speak in the ways listed in previous posts consider that this is that particular person's opinion. You do not have to accept it as "gospel truth". Because everyone is allowed to speak whatever is on their minds and whatever they believe. I've been to several 12 step programs, and have found it the same in each of them. My heart goes out to those who have had negative experiences, and the last thing I want to say is that I have found those dogmatic people in AA, in church, at the job, and in society in general. So therefore this leads me to believe that this phenomenon is not an outgrowth of AA, but the personalities of some human beings |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:31 am: |
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Just wanted to share with people. 6 days without a drop of alcohol...First time in many years. No AA, just will power and not wanting to keep going down that road.
No judgement of AA intended in this post. I think they do a very important job.
Lets hope I can stick to it by myself. Spare me a thought/prayer.  |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 9:12 am: |
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The 12-steps exhibit most of the signs of a cult, but so what? Cults don't necessarily have to be destructive. The question you should be asking isn't whether or not AA is a cult, but what its motives for using cult techniques are. I know of no sinister underlying purpose that exists in the 12-steps; they don't want your money or property, which is less than you can say about most Christian sects.
It's good this info gets out, though. Personally, I think there are many better ways than brainwashing and peer pressure to kick a drug habit. AA is getting to be a bit of a relic these days, but it's really pretty harmless save a few psychological bruises you might suffer. |
Tommy Perkins
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 10:10 pm: |
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12-Step Coercion Watch
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/ |
AFriendOfBillW
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 4:34 pm: |
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I agree with the Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 09:12 am posting. They have cultish tendencies, but so what? They do more good than harm. Leave them alone. |
KatieD
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 9:41 am: |
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You think it's a good thing to convince people that they are powerless and make them dependent on a group of strangers, most of whom are living intensely dysfunctional lives? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 1:40 pm: |
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as of october of this year - i will have 17 years sober. i have attended aa throughout. i now make 2- 3 meetings a week.
what do i think about aa being a cult?
i think it is. yes. and the person above who said to hold onto your brain - yes, yes, yes.
so why do i still go?
because i still need the social support aspect of it & a place to go in a 'pinch' if i do have a strong urge to drink.
it is a thin line i walk. but i don't - right now - have any other answers.
a great site to check out on this subject is
http:www.aadeprogramming.com/
the major tenets that i agree with on the above site (and it took a long time to sink in) are:
1. aa is a religious group - all denials of this are crap. athiests and agnostics are accepted but are expected to come to know god (the only reason they are accepted). i remain an agnostic -but trust me other aa's are just 'waiting' for me to either 'get with the program' or get drunk.
2. aa encourages submission and acceptance and forgiveness to a fault (and a major one). perpetrators access aa meetings regularly - and find it real easy to find 'victims' - for we are encouraged to trust, give out phone numbers, give rides to virtual strangers, and even give them our couch to sleep on ......................
oh yeah - and if and when 'victimized' - one should 'not point fingers,' 'one cannot afford self-righteous anger' - etc. etc.
what a sociopathic haven this creates!
3. this is even worse when it comes to women and/or trauma survivors - who are basically 'sitting ducks' for people who want anything from a quicky to a rape to access to your bank account to sexually abusing your children.
4. and this is worse than ever at this point in time because courts are regularly mandating criminals to aa........... duh. criminals. it does not take much to figure out why some might hang around. it is surely not always about stopping drinking.
5. i could go on and on ------------------------
but better that you check out the site i mentioned for yourselves and read some articles.
as i said, i still go. i go to stay sober yes. aa has saved my life. but i also go to be a voice of reason - especially for women and women with children. do not trust everyone there!!!!!!!! big, big mistake if you do !!!!!!!!!
i sponsored one girl (teenager) who was molested by an old time aa-er - whom i still have to hear about (what a 'great' guy he was) at meetings sometimes. he is dead - good riddance. she has long been gone from aa - no surprise - she could not/would not press charges.
i sponsored another girl who was found dead earlier this year from an overdose. she was also molested by a 'highly regarded' aa member, also dead now. also good riddance. but she is dead too.
another suicide/possible homicide - female - just within the last month. was she victimized in aa? you betcha.
and i could go on. after 16+ years of listening and watching and 'growing' despite a lot of riduculous dogma and bull---- , i could go on.
what has saved me? therapy, i think, and as my therapist would say "incredibly strong ego strength."
check out the site i mentioned. but realize too, cult or not - alcoholism kills - and sometimes we need to do what we need to do -----------
just be an educated consumer & educate others.
no one is held captive - physically - but keep your brain engaged - yes indeed! keep your brain engaged and don't be too free with personal information.
if your testimony includes past childhood sexual abuse or rape - know that perpetrators are quite likely sitting right there making assessments of how vulnerable you are now -----------------
they are quick to jump on the 'forgive and forget' - 'move on with your life' - 'get over it' bandwagon -
even as they salivate.
so be wise. be careful. and stick close, if you choose to go to aa, with people who do not preach - but rather seem to be living and enjoying life.
the ones that run up to greet you so warmly -----
watch out.
the ones that keep a distance --- probably safer.
just 'some' wisdom - from one somewhat wise - but also very sad.
no utopia exists. |
Abc-123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 3:17 pm: |
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Is Alcoholics Anonymous a cult? I am someone who has extensive experience with AA. Many years I have gone to more than a thousand different AA meetings in several cities over a period of 15 years, I have read almost all of the AAWS approved literature. I know the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book) quite well. I have been through 12-step rehab both inpatient and out patient a few times. I have also examined the works of people who study cults, Singer, Hassan, Groenveld, Stark, and many more. I have compared AA to groups that are commonly known as cults such as the Krishnas, Moonies, Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment, Amway, etc., on and on.
Is Alcoholics Anonymous a cult? I have yet to see a definition of the word “cult” that does not fit AA to a “T.” Those who defend AA say things such as, “There is no charismatic leader.” The answer is that there was one – Bill Wilson, he died in 1971. AA is like any other large cult. Scientology is another one that is big enough that it would not stop after the leader died. Like most groups that are commonly referred to as cults, AA was created, promoted, and sustained by a charismatic leader. Today AA is sustained by a multitude of “lover-level gurus” they can be found at any meeting that you might go to. Another defense that I saw above is that AA is an organization that one is free to leave at any time – therefore not a cult. Well it’s not that simple. True that standard (non-institutional) AA does not lock anyone up we have other kinds of tactics in order to keep members in the group. Members are told that without AA they will start drinking again and if that happens – they die. This is of course a lie. But like many other lies that the cult of AA spouts when it is hears enough times members start to believe it. There are countless cases (I am one) where long-term members are harassed after they decide to leave the cult – complete with the moronic AA death threats – “It’s AA, or it’s jails, institutions, or death.”
This could go on indefinitely. The main points I would like to make are;
1. Nobody NEEDS to go to AA in order to stop drinking, they can stop drinking on their own. Most people do. There are alternative support groups like Lifering, and Smart that are much better.
2. AA is not about staying sober, it is about promoting the bizarre religious doctrine that is the real AA.
3. AA does not give people a better chance in success in staying sober, it is not a “better quality sobriety” it is no easier, it is not better in any way.
4. AA is an insanely dishonest program, the Big Book does not contain one single honest statement – it is nothing but slimy cult manipulation tactics.
5. AA is not a healthy environment it is an indoctrinating environment that prohibits personal growth.
6. There is no such thing as “spiritual not religious.” |
Galileo (Galileo)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 9:09 pm: |
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I am a former Scientologist who has been going to Alanon and mixed Alanon/AA meetings.
To me Alanon is not a destructive cult the way Scientology is, but it does have cultic characteristics.
1 - Conformity to the "God thing." If your higher power is not God, you don't fit in well.
2 - If you don't do the steps the way THEY understand them, the rest of the group makes you feel the odd man out, as I do in almost every meeting I attend.
3 - The contradictions built into the steps which almost no one acknowledges. If you turn yourself over to a higher power and admit your powerlessness, you don't do a damned thing for yourself, which is NOT what happens. Without your own will and choice the AA program is worthless. That is NOT powerlessness. It is augmenting your own will with your higher power, quite a different thing. No alkie I have ever met has quit drinking unless they wanted to and stopped drinking from their own choice.
4 - AA and Alanon are both far too all-or-nothing in their philosophies. That is one hallmark of cult indoctrination - do it our way or it won't work. So far I am resisting buying into this whole philsophy, and I will probably stop going to meetings as they go farther and farther afield from what I believe and need. Still I have found the meetings enlightening in some ways, and sometimes they are therapeutic for me when I join in and talk.
Other secular programs are enjoying great success, but they are not as wide spread as AA, and they have far fewer meetings available. I am going to look into alternatives to AA such as LifeRing, because the AA philosophy is too rigid and often misses the mark to me. |
Abc-123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 10:55 pm: |
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Galieo,
Congratulations on leaving Scientology, I’ve never been there but from what I hear it can be a rough experience. Regular AA does differ from other cults in that they don’t usually pull every penny and than some out of their members. On the other hand institutional AA – treatment centers can cost an enormous amount of money for cult indoctrination, some of them run over $30,000 for a 28-day stay. (I don’t care what they say it IS AA and all they do in alcohol rehab centers is cult indoctrination of the 12-step religion – I know this for a fact, I have been in a few of them.)
Conformity is that basis of the 12-step cult religion. They tell you not to think for yourself and reinforce it with stupid slogans. The groups are set up so that they are run by true believers, anyone can join and stay for a while, but if you don’t adapt the way of the religion you will eventually be shunned out. One thing that is frequently noticed about the long-term members is that they are very angry and bitter people, far from the “happy, joyous, and free” attitude that the program claims to invoke. You noticed that contradictions, AA is full of them – very sloppy cult. But people do have the right to believe whatever they want to no matter how stupid it is.
All in all AA is just one more goofy religious cult and I wouldn’t have a problem with it if it weren’t for one major thing. AA has managed to slither its way into places that a goofy religious cult has no business being – that would be the Legal system and the medical establishments. If they get out of the places that they don’t belong – legally or morally then they are free to go off and be doorknob-worshiping morons for as long as their hearts desire. |
diana corsini
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 1:49 pm: |
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I am Italian, so I hope my english will make sense. I just wanted to "share" my experience with 12 steps program in an Al-Anon Italian group. I attended a group for a year. Though I was raised an atheist, I didn't mind whether they called it a "spiritual program" or talked about a "higher power". I didn't feel threatened or mind controlled by that. I thought: maybe this group of people have some good suggestions, can help me out. I am going to stick with it and see what happens. So I chose to attend and did attend quite regularly. Please note that Italian 12 steps is a bit strange, because you can't find two Italians sharing the same views on anything, and Italians are I think among the most skeptical, cynical and non-believing and programmable people in the world. Yes, we have the Pope, but that is another story. So imposing anyone a Program or a discipline or a cult is almost useless. And when in meetings you talk about Program, Higher Power, Spiritual issues - most people giggle, or roll their eyes and sigh, or exchange glances trying to look serious, or have a fit of nervous cough. So, a very non-cultish environment. I say this because I would like to point out that the stress in my Italian, very small and specific 12 step experience, was not on Program or religious issues. The stress was on shame, guilt and the recovery philosophy. 1) SHAME: you are what you are because you have a disease. Be it alcoholism or co-dependency, or compulsive eating, you are ill. And the good part is that you've done it all by yourself. Even if you were beaten, or neglected, or raped, or emotionally blackmailed in your disfunctional family, IT IS ALL BLAMED ON YOU. 2) GUILT: if you don't get better, it's because you don't want to. You are a self-centered, manipulative, whining, smart-ass, who thrives in his/her own self-pity. 3) recovery philosophy: forget and forgive.Just as simple as that.Only problem is it doesn't work. You cannot decide to forget. Your body and brain have a physical memory, and you can't fool that. You can pray and do program and chant and hold hands, but your body knows. And if you tell your body that your parents "did what they could", that you can't hold them responsible for beating or raping or neglecting you, and that you have to forget and forgive, your body will get back to you. Your body can be quite a pain in the ass, sometimes. I remember when a middle aged couple came at a meeting and started talking about their son, an alcoholic. The father was quite distant and silent, but the mother was crying. At a certain point, she said: "I don't know, sometimes I ask myself where I may have done wrong." It sounded to me like a pretty reasonable, sensitive question to ask yourself, if your son spends his days drunk on the couch. No matter what the answer was, I definitely admired that woman for wanting to take responsibility. This doesn't mean that I believed her mistakes had caused her son's alcoholism - I just thought it was an appropriate question to ask oneself, since there is no scientific proof that alcoholism is a disease. It is more likely a behaviour disorder - as current researchers pint out. Well, anyway: You should have seen the bloodinjected eyes of the two sponsors in charge of the meeting. They interrupted the woman, and said cutting short: "You had no part in it. Alcoholism is a disease. It's like cancer or diabetes." Ouch! That hurt. I came home and had spasms all over. And mind you, I take full responsibility for my adult life, and pay my mortgage and work and don't go on playing the martyr or whining about child-abuse. I just don't like the truth to be twisted. Facts to be twisted. If you take away my memory, my truth, you take away my identity. Then you can do me anything. You can take anything away from me. This I don't like. Imagine if someone told a jewish holocaust survivor that in order to be happy, to "heal" he has to "forget and forgive". This would not only sound outrageous, but stupid and un-scientific. As one of your posts noted, there is a little nuisance which is called science, cognitive science. And it proves quite the contrary: the more you remember and get in touch with your story and past feelings, the more you will know who you are and how to be that without abusing others. And believe me, all of us, in my Al-Anon group, were adults abused as children. Every single man and woman.
So it may not be a cult, but it is not about the truth. Yet I am glad that some benefit from it, especially alcoholics, and I think that most groups have a number of nice, compassionate people who can support you in difficult times. But whatever support, it comes from the people, not the Program. Not that shame-based, guilt-tripping, truth-twisting Program.
As far as recovery rates go, I haven't seen a single recovered alcoholic in the AA group next door, in a whole year. This is not very statistically significant, still it's a fact. My husband went one day and hated it. But I guess they must have labeled him as "in denial". It's not the program that doesn't work, it's you who haven't touched bottom (translation: it's you who are a dirty bastard!)
I wonder if any of this makes sense to you |
Otis S.
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 8:18 am: |
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AA is most definitely a brainwashing cult. I think it has changed over the years and evolved into a New Age religion in which one concieves their own God, which sort of turns out to be themselves, and allows them to define morality they way they want it. AA these days teaches alcoholism is a disease, and that one bears no responsibility for his or her own actions, IMO.
For info on studies that validate the absolute ineffectiveness of AA, see http://www.orange-papers.org and http://www.morerevealed.com |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 5:23 am: |
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As a recovering alcoholic, I attended one AA meeting during my early days of the sober life. The meeting gave me the creeps. I never returned or sought out any other "recovery" group. And, God help me, I'm still on the wagon. People can and do overcome this disorder/disease/behavioral problem (whatever one calls it, it is an all-encommpassing destructive way of life) through means other than AA, such as medical assistance, faith, and strong existing support systems such as family. I'm not sure if AA is a cult, but it does help some people who would rather be addicted to a support group than to alcohol. |
Anonymous (24.237.101.162)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2004 - 6:22 pm: |
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aa is obviously an evil cult |
Rob Brian (207.71.220.61)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 31, 2004 - 12:16 pm: |
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What BS - AA is not a "cult". They DO NOT require that newcomers go to 90 meetings in 90 days - the do not require anything. As a therapist who has treated hundreds of addicted people, I can tell you it's not a cult. It is true however that where ever you find a group of people; you're sure to find some who want to control others. If you read the AA literature you'll find out. |
Anonymous (66.109.135.144)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 8:13 pm: |
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Sure read some AA literature, read "Alcoholics Anonymous" AKA "The Big Book." That is if you can get through it without throwing your cookies. It was first published in 1939, the description of the program has not been updated since. This is probably the most vile piece of crap that has ever been published.
Alcoholics Anonymous is typical religious cult. Anyone who has read the literature AND has more than two funcioning brain cells can see that. |
Charlie (166.102.118.91)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 1:06 pm: |
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I attended my first AA meeting over 30 years ago. I know the Big Book and 12x12 like the back of my hand. I've sponsored people in AA and attended more meetings than probably anyone else on this site. Is a religious cult? Absolutely! It fits probably 90% of the parameters for cult existence. Right down to having a, "disturbed Guru",
Bill Wilson, at the head. AA steppers will nitpick,hurl insults,make threats and rise to levels of unspeakable intolerance, when their "program of recovery" is questioned. I've seen and heard it all. Many,many,many times I'll debate the veracity of the Big Book with any stepper any time. I've never lost yet. Bring it on!
Charlie |
Charlie (166.102.118.91)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 1:35 pm: |
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ABC
You hit the nail squarely on the head! I also have attended almost 1000 meetings. And I agree wholeheartedly with every single word you wrote! |
Charlie (166.102.118.91)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 2:34 pm: |
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The AA mindset is certainly a living paradox. If an AA is outspoken in their beliefs and is critical of AA dogma in any way then they are said to be a "Dry Drunk" or not in recovery. If, however, one is a fanatical supporter of AA dogma they are said to be "In recovery." |
Charlie (166.102.118.91)
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 8:54 am: |
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The Cult Called A.A.
by Paul Roasberry
Reprinted from Matrix, Denver, Janet Roder, Editor
When we think of cults, we usually think of bizarre religious sects, armed compounds, mind control and eccentric leaders. Most of us do not think of Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.) as a cult, but I do.
Three years ago, I was in the grips of a serious drinking problem. Like most alcoholics, I rationalized my drinking, citing the many terrible circumstances in my life. Then, almost three years ago, I stopped drinking. Period. By myself.
Oh, I attended a half dozen or so A.A. meetings at the time, upon the advice of someone recommended by a friend. The woman who suggested A.A. to me was a licensed psychologist. She was a "recovered alcoholic" and was very active in A.A.
What I found at the meetings was a weird mixture of the deplorable and the laughable. It didn't take long to notice that something was not quite level with this organization.
I was tipped off to A.A.'s strong cult qualities when the lady psychologist made a somewhat curious remark during the first week or two of my sobriety.
I had an uncle then (he died this past January) who had been an alcoholic prior to 1960. Uncle Ralph consumed, by his own subsequent admission, about a quart of whiskey a day. He stopped drinking without the assistance of A.A. when he met my aunt. It was a condition of their marriage that he stop drinking, and he did.
I remember my Uncle Ralph as a sweet, generous man during the thirty-odd years he was married to my aunt. He was not abusive or cruel, he worked hard, and made an excellent stepfather to my three girl cousins. When I mentioned Uncle Ralph to the lady psychologist, stating that he'd quit drinking on his own, she immediately dismissed my observation with, "Oh, well, he's just a dry drunk." She of course had never met my uncle Ralph, knew positively nothing about his character and yet claimed to be able to diagnose him as a "dry drunk" strictly on the information that he hadn't progressed through the A.A.'s widely touted "twelve step program." Bear in mind, this was a licensed psychologist making an incredibly spurious, rash judgment.
Of course, all cults have this in common: they reject and label as untouchables any who do not embrace their particular version of "Truth." To died-in-the-wool communists, non-believers are "bootlickers of the capitalists," or "counter-revolutionary hooligans." To the born again fundamentalist Christian, non-believers are "agents of Satan." To Moslems, Christians are "devils," and to Nazis, Jews are "swine." To the Alcoholics Anonymous membership, anyone who stops drinking without chanting the mantras of cult founder Bill W. are "dry drunks," pure and simple. You don't even need to know anything more about the self-quitters -- the fact that they quit drinking without A.A. makes them dry drunks, a priori.
Don't get me wrong. I do not advocate suppressing A.A. or any other cult. I simply want you to know, in case you are a problem drinker and are toying around with the idea of quitting, that it's O.K. to develop your own solution to your own problem. The last thing you need when you undertake a major, radical transformation in your life is to be accused by a bunch of self-righteous fanatics of being "a dry drunk," whatever the hell that is.
The whole A.A. program hinges upon the alcoholic's acceptance of what A.A. calls a "higher power." Conversely, adherents to the twelve-step program are expected to renounce any personal responsibility for, or control over, their problem. This blatant renunciation of the concept of free will is also a characteristic of every single other cult I can think of -- the individual counts for nothing, while the non-existent, the illusory, the hypothetical, is all. Self-respecting, proud, analytical achievers do not make good cult members. A cult follower must be stripped of his sense of individual worth -- in many sects, he is humiliated sexually, deprived of sensory stimuli, sequestered from the larger community, or otherwise manipulated to look upon himself as degraded and worthless. In A.A., you are plopped in a ring of cultists every evening and pressured to place your entire destiny in the hands of some "higher power."
When I began to ask hard questions about the nature of this "higher power," half expecting to hear some gibberish about "god," I learned (no kidding!) that one member even had his motorcycle represent his "higher power." What form of silliness is this that empowers motorcycles to cure us of alcoholism, I wondered.
At A.A. meetings, everyone sits around in a big circle. There are readings from "the Big Book," a not-very-well-written compendium of home-spun philosophy and anecdote authored by Bill W. and his colleagues some decades ago. Every cult needs its sacred writings, its revealed word. Members start talking about themselves and their alcoholism, and oddly, this sounds more like "self-criticism" under Mao's cultural revolution than anything therapeutic. In fact, it's all directed toward precisely the same end as "confession" in the Catholic church and Maoist "self-criticism" -- de-emphasis of the individual and a concomitant glorification of the ethereal, the other-worldly, the imaginary.
At some point, if you begin to question this "program" of A.A.'s, the talk gets tough and they start to lean on you. You are told that you can never recover on your own, that you are doomed to lapse over and over again into drinking binges, or at best, become a "dry drunk." (This is supposedly someone who has stopped drinking but still manifests all the unconscionable traits of a drunk: all the sociopathy, all the abusiveness, all the manipulative behaviors.)
The more you try to trot out examples of persons who have transformed their own lives under their own steam, the more the party line is thrown back at you: you are powerless against drink. Powerless. Any so-called examples of alcoholics who quit drinking without the twelve steps are in reality only examples of "dry drunks."
When I left A.A., I made the comment to someone that if I were indeed "powerless," I might as well commit suicide, because a life without any control over my destiny would be pointless and absurd. I stated again my conviction that I did not regard myself as powerless, and I went about my recovery in the most sensible way I could imagine. I removed alcohol from my home, I found some healthy pastimes to pursue (mountain climbing, writing, and painting) and, in the whirlwind breakup of my marriage, I devoted myself to staying afloat financially, making my new company prosper, and seeking out some like-minded companionship -- that was when I re-joined Mensa.
So, if you are determined to quit drinking, you can save yourself about three hundred sixty-five hours a year, plus travel time.
Try the "one-step" program, instead: just stop drinking. Believe me: you can do it.
I did. |
Artemis Unplugged (152.163.252.129)
| | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 9:07 pm: |
|
>
See, now that was your problem. In order to buy the irrational tripe that AA purports you need to be a stupid blathering idiot. That you are apparently not. :-) |
Anonymous (163.179.140.37)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 3:51 pm: |
|
Just because AA may keep someone sober (for a while anyways) who really needs to stay sober, does NOT mean, it doesnt acheive those results (for a while) through controlling means. The sad part of this is that there aren't enough really helpful groups and all the treatment you will receive in nonprofit counseling centers will almost always be based on AA. There really are no alternatives!! Of course if you put someone in a cult like situation, some will be influenced enough to get them to stop drining (for a while). My point is that this doesnt make it GOOD. Taking away a person's trust in his or her own ability to think for himself, is going to make that person a hollow shell. What is needed is an alternative way to get people to stop, and then to teach them to think for themselves and how to take care of themselves. Hollow shell people, who wants a life as that?? I would rather drink myself to death. |
Charlie (166.102.118.91)
| | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 5:00 pm: |
|
Anonymous,
I agree wholeheartedly! |
Anonymous (66.87.24.52)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 6:18 am: |
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OH
MY
GOD
Can I ask a couple of questions here?
Who is getting rich off AA?
I understand they are "not organized" and run entirely by meager donations that rarely exceed expenses.
And, if they are a cult, would they not have a system in place to threaten or otherwise coerce a member if they tried to leave?
10 years clean/sober and I have never once, not ONCE seen the kind of deception and intent that cults demonstrate.
You want to see a cult? try Narconon !!
Scientology runs a drug rehabilitation program that is a cult through and through.
Quit slandering the efforts of a (perhaps misaligned) group of people who have nothing besides staying sober themselves to gain from helping others get sober.
AA and its sister programs may have their problems, that comes from being not-organized. The founders KNEW that alcoholics and addicts would, by nature, want to dominate and control. That is how men are. By adding this condition to the traditions the founders knew that the only people who would stick around and probably live would be the ones who were at least partly willing to give of themselves.
Bitch all you want. Yes, some of the signs are there, in some areas it may actually be run very similar to a cult but that is exactly what it was set up to never become. If you have local issues, for gods sake, DO something about it. Peoples lives are at stake here. |
Anonymous (198.104.0.100)
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:35 pm: |
|
my ex-wife used to go to her AA meetings and then stop off at the bar to get loaded before she came home (if at all). what a joy she was to be around. thank god and greyhound that bitch is down the road. oh, by the way, ya left the kid here honey. oh, I know you can't take care of him as long as you're "using" or "trying to get your shit together". but that's allright - I'll just explain it to him somehow. by the way, that was ten f'ucking years ago and you still don't have it together. whats that? you've met the new love of you're life at AA? you're going to marry him? as soon as you get it all together you'll explain it all to you're son ( which one? ) I here you have no.4 now, another without a dad. great. what's that? the weddings off because your court appointed AA boyfreind just completed his 2 years and promptly fell off the wagon. lucky bastard |
Anonymous (66.109.136.165)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 6:23 pm: |
|
Dr. Frankenstein decided that he would set up an experiment to determine the efficacy of Alcoholics Anonymous using laboratory rats as subjects.
His faithful lab assistant Igor gladly sets up the experiment and gives his first report:
“Doctor, it turns out that rats are social animals, and some of them gather together and enjoy partaking in alcoholic beverages.”
“Wonderful,” the scientist replies, “it seems we are well on the way.”
Igor delivers another report some time later; “Doctor, it has been observed that there are some rats that will overindulge in the intoxicating beverages and seem to enjoy it more than the others.”
“Igor,” the great doctor remarks with a grin, “I can see success in our future, please continue with this fantastic experiment.”
Igor returns a while later with his most recent observations; “Doctor! I’ve great news; there are some of these rats that will continue to consume the spirits despite the negative consequences – we have alcoholic rats!”
“Splendid Igor, absolutely splendid, I couldn’t have hoped for better results. Now isolate these rats and begin to read to them from the Big Book.”
Igor returns some time later with a sad look on his face; “Bad news Doc, there is a problem.”
Dr. Frankenstein looks surprised; “A problem? But everything was going so well, what could the problem be?”
“Well Doc, it just so happens that rats are far too intelligent to believe any of that AA crap.” |
Anonymous (209.66.136.225)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 4:16 pm: |
|
AA, if you read its traditions as well as its steps, has been VERY carefully designed so that it does not become a cult. Sadly, many people IN AA do NOT follow all the guidelines, and cults ABSOLUTELY use AA for their recruitment. I have encountered a cult called HARDCORE/AWOL which uses coercive mind control techniques using AA meetings as its spring-board. They are violent, deceptive and abusive, but I have had people in AA help me without asking me anything, too. So, AA is very carefully NOT a cult, but is being used by other cults in a very deceptive way. |
Anonymous (66.109.135.111)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 2:53 pm: |
|
Alcoholics Anonymous is a relatively new religious movement that is based on a bizarre, irrational system of beliefs.
Here is an analysis on how AA compares to Steve Hassan's BITE model of mind control:
http://www.morerevealed.com/articles/devin.htm
The "traditions" excuse is thinner than thin.
1. The traditions do not prevent the organization from becomming a cult.
2. They don't adhere to them anyway. |
Liz (81.79.229.222)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 3:01 pm: |
|
AA and any treatment involving the 12 steps is cult - pure and simple (in other words very dangerous, don't be deceived) - read Ken Ragge's "The Real AA - behind the myth of 12 step recovery" and Charles Bufe's "Alcoholics Anonymous :Cult or Cure?" for background.
Anyone who is unable to stay sober within AA (the vast majority), go to rationalrecovery.org - I have no affiliation with them but when I found them it was a breath of fresh air!! You don't have to believe me but I know from first hand experience that the 12 steps are cult through and through. |
Anonymous (130.70.157.190)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 1:21 pm: |
|
One of the big differences between AA and other cults is that it's not nearly as authoritarian. There isn't a single "leader" (or small cadre of leaders) of the organization, at least not any more since the original founders died. Status in the organization revolves more around how much sober time you have--"old timers" are looked up to and in some cases revered, but it's not the same as the really dangerous authoritarian cults out there.
However, since AA is so loosely structured, and there really isn't a way that members can be disciplined for abusing other members, there's more room for individuals to harm other individuals through abusing the sponsorship role (members are HIGHLY encouraged to have a sponsor, who is similar to a discipler in Shepherding cults but doesn't necessarily connect the AA member to a pyramidical authoritarian network like in authoritarian cults) and ESPECIALLY a practice called "13th stepping" where men prey on young "newcomer" women (genders may change based on sexual orientation but men preying on newcomer women is most common). Abusing sponsorship and 13th stepping aren't condoned by the vast majority of AAers (and other 12th steppers) but there isn't much anyone can do about it either other than deciding to confront those who are doing these things.
AA's belief system is certainly cultish, however. AA has its own sacred literature (the "Big Book" and the "12 and 12" are the ones on the top of this list), and in actual practice has also incorporated a lot of self-help and new age philosophies over the years. The AA of today is less overtly Christian in nature than it was 60 years ago (except maybe in the Bible Belt), but it is still religious in its own right. Even "Christian" AA is at odds with orthodox Christianity, though.
I'm a second generation AAer and was involved in 12 step "recovery" of one form or another for over 20 years. I didn't really "recover" though until I left. I still don't drink (my choice--not out of obligation or fear) but my life now is a whole lot more sane, stable and fulfilling. NOT what AA calls a "dry drunk" at all!!!!! |
liz (81.79.159.127)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 5:54 am: |
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As the above post illustrates. It is not so much the authoritarian or religious overtones that make AA dangerous. The danger lies in the way it makes people deal with the problem. The concept of powerlessness invokes an inability to deal with the problem directly, oneself. It never gets dealt with. What's more, the weakness one feels in knowing, deep down, that you don't have a handle on it makes you lack self esteem, be fearful and downright confused!! I didn't go to many meetings so don't consider myself as exAA. I went for six weeks 'treatment' and thereafter learnt about the 12 step concepts enough that I may as well have been AA. I literally couldn't make friends in the end up because I didn't know who or what I was, I just couldn't trust myself. I wasted about 15 years of my life on this merry-go-round. Thankfully, I realise now that it is up to me what I do with my life, I have taken back control. |
Magoo (12.72.79.141)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 3:50 pm: |
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I would like to say a few things here:
1) I was a Scientologist for 30 years, and literally excaped out, 4 years ago, July 19th, 2000.
2) I know ~many~ people who have been helped greatly by AA, and those people have gone on to lead succesful lives because of the help they got there.
3) Having studied "Cults" since I left, I do not believe AA has the same mind control techniques cults have, explained by many, one I like being Robert Lifton.
4) I worked as a volunteer for years with Scientology's Office of Special Affairs which is their own "PR and Legal" arm. Shortly before I left, one of my best friends asked me to help out in "Fighting the critics on the Internet". Not knowing much about the Internet, and my friend promising me what he was asking as, "Totally legal"...I did it. Later, I found out what I was doing was actually assisting them in stopping free speech. Once that happened, I called my friend and said, "Isn't it going to be obvious YOU all are spamming ARS (alt.religion.scientology)?
He said to me, "No...because we're spamming other newsgroups, too, so it won't be so obvious".
http://www.lermanet.com/cos/toryonosa.htm
I left shortly after that conversation, forever.
With that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they did begin this on AA being a cult.
Whether they did, or didn't....here is my suggestion: If you have ~real~ statistics, post them. If not, say it's your opinion. That way, the truth remains backed up.
Sorry if this has been a distraction, but last night someone upset about the anti-Scientology world called me, and due to his drinking, I suggested he join AA. He said "It's a cult too!"
Thus, I came to read about it.
I still don't see it...at all.
Most of all, people need to find what helps them. If it doesn't...move on. If it does, thank God and your friends you found some help.
I know I do every day, for those who helped me get out of Scientology.
My best
Tory/Magoo~~
http://www.xenu.net
http://www.xenutv.com
*To find out more about Scientology/the other side, for anyone who wants to* |
Magoo (12.72.79.141)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 4:59 pm: |
|
PS: One other thing I found interesting is looking at when this thread re AA being a cult began. It was VERY recent. Guess what else was VERY recent?
Scientology's drug treatment program is called Narconon. A bunch of activists (self included) helped bust the fact that they had snuck into the SF schools, saying they are 'secular', lying saying they are "Not part of the Church of Scientology" when ALL of their statistics each week go up to the head honchoes in Scientology.
The SF Chronicle did an article on June 9th, exposing all of this. That night, there was a board meeting, and Narconon has now been kicked out of the LA public school system, and SF too. Now there is a state wide investigation on Narconon.
Coincidence that this just popped up within weeks of that, or not? Who knows, not I. But I do know you can find out more about the Narconon issue, and facts, here:
http://stop-narconon.org/
Check to see if your kid's school has Narconon in it. They're slippery.
My congratulations to anyone who is clean and sober, and my best wishes for rapid healing to those who didn't find help with AA.
Tory/Magoo~ |
Magoo (12.72.79.141)
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 5:02 pm: |
|
DOH! My bad....this first post was in 2002...but that was when the Top Secret Mafia was still sliming other areas, so although my timing is wrong in the above post, it's important you read the info at that Web site, and learn both sides of their program, and where they've slipped into.
T |
Ben M. (12.147.224.62)
| | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 2:51 pm: |
|
I stubled upon this post accidentaly, and it may be very very old. I don't know.
I would just like to remind everyone that A.A. has a policy of attraction rather than promotion and that, as members, we are suggested by our traditions to not express opinions on outside issues. (The public..or random people on the internet being an outside issue)
With that, A.A. is not for everyone. It saved my life. If you find something that works for you and its not A.A, more power to you. We definately have no monopoly on alcoholism.
With Love,
Ben M. |
Anonymous (172.147.53.164)
| | Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 9:22 pm: |
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Reality is alcoholics by themselves are a cult. They only want to be around other alcoholics. They have their own little culture, mannerisms, rituals, language. They abuse people who are not alcoholics. They are brainwashed and are close minded to anyone who speaks against alcohol. They refuse to believe any scientific facts that prove that alcohol abuse is suicidal. They lure non alcoholics into their cult to brainwash them also and to destroy their lives as well. They constantly seek validation from the outside world for their insanity. They meet in dark creepy places to worship their god, the bottle.
Everything is an excuse for them to drink. A sports game at a stadium or on tv. They constantly have to have alcohol with them or in them. They've changed the word "party" from a noun to a verb. Party! Parties are supposed to be joyous occasions. Not sad, dying death marches. Alcoholics are quick to be offended and to want to fight. Alcoholics are a destoyer of lives and families. Alcoholics are probably the single most destructive cult on this earth. Anyway to lure someone away from the cult of alcoholism could be a good thing. |
Anonymous (66.109.150.77)
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 12:34 pm: |
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Atention Ben,
I think you need to be reminded that AA's "attraction, not promotion" is one of AA's biggest lies.
The "no opinion on outside issues" is another pile of crap. How conveinient - whenever the cult member faces a real-world question --
"oh, that's an outside issue, and we have no opinion." AA has to be the most dishonest cult I've ever seen. |
Anonymous (172.158.25.78)
| | Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 9:24 pm: |
|
But compared to the destructive cult that is alcoholism, which is worse? |
Olive Oil (68.61.32.37)
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 11:52 am: |
|
AA is not a cult. It is very helpful to those who are ready for help.
The reason for having a sponsor is simple and clear.. a real alcoholic cannot do it on their own will.
a sponsor helps guarantee that they will have to check in with their actions, making it harder for someone to fall off the wagon.
Cults have bait and promises of salvation if you attach yourselves to them.
AA makes none of these, it only promises to help those who want to be free of their self-destructive habits.
be careful of being too loosely interprative.
I have a feeling that those who think its a cult are among those that went to AA and weren't strong enough to quit.
They feel that if they dismiss this as some kind of cult that they can justify their own failure.
Peace, Olive Oil |
God (66.109.144.190)
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 6:59 pm: |
|
Olive,
The crap you just spouted is everything I despise about the sick, twisted cult of Alcoholics Anonomous.
Let's start by pointing out some your lies:
Lie #1 - AA is helpful.
Truth, AA is a religious cult that does more harm than good, in some cases AA kills.
Lie #2 - Those who leave AA are not ready for help.
Truth, people are probably turned off by AAs religious dogma and cultish behavior.
Lie #3 - AA makes no bait and switch promises.
---- This is just way too stupid for comment.
Here is some truth -- anyone can quit drinking if they want to.
Nobody needs AA to do it. You CAN quit on your own. AA does not increase your chances.
"Spiritual, not religious" is a lie -- AA is a religious cult.
Bill W. was a lunatic, the 12 steps are just nonsensical blather from a nutcase, they have nothing to do with quitting drinking -- or anything else for that matter.
AA is just rehashed Oxford Group crap, it has an undercurrent of fundamentalist xtianity, ultra-right wing politics, authoritarianism, and fascism.
I believe the world would be a better place if Bill Wilson was a still-born glob of protoplasm that got flushed down the toilet.
Down with the destructive, evil cult of Alcoholics Anonymous.
God |
Anonymous (172.208.38.245)
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 9:36 pm: |
|
Well, one might surmise from the above accusations that you are an angry communist, atheist, abortionist alcoholic. If that is so "May God Bless You". You'll need it in your life.
Seriously, I would like to hear some facts to back up these charges. I have friends who are in AA and they say that their local chapter does not promote any particular religion. |
Anonymous (66.109.144.190)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 2:43 am: |
|
It promotes the AA religion
A religion that is based on certian principles:
1.lies, everythin that AA says is a lie and I do mean everything.
2. Authoritarianism, "acceptance is the key to all my problems..." "Let go and let god" ego deflation, etc.
3. Anti-intellectualism, -- Collectively AA has a pathalogical, rabid hatred for anything the least bit intellectual. "utilize, don't analyze" "stinkin' thinkin'" etc.
4. Superstition and fear. "if you don't work a fourth, you'll drink a fifth" "if you don't bend your knees, you'll bend your elbow"
5. Necrophelia -- the cult is obsessed with death.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a dead-end destructive cult of hatred and death.
If you are a member -- get out now!
God |
Anonymous (172.138.90.177)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 3:58 am: |
|
No, I'm not a member . I'm not an alcoholic. Never have been. I do warn everybody I can about the dangers of alcoholism. And I know many alcoholics (they're everywhere) and to see them makes me not want to drink at all. But I see it is the cultic tendacies of alcoholism that helps keep alcoholics on their self destructive path. Are you an alcoholic? |
Anonymous (66.109.144.190)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 9:22 am: |
|
No, I'm not an alcoholic. I was at one time, years ago, but I quit drinking. I was told to go to AA and unfortunately I did. AA destroyed my life; it is a sick, twisted, irrational cult. I would know I was in it for years. I was told that if I left AA I would end up in jail, and institution or dead. I left AA and none of those things happened - I'm just happier, my life is better, I'm more secure, sane, and successful.
If you want to quit drinking -- quit drinking. If you want to join a wacko, bizarre, religious cult -- go to Alcoholics Anonymous.
AA is about religious conversion, it has nothing to do with overcomming addiction.
God |
Anonymous (199.60.107.1)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 1:19 pm: |
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God, could you explain why you think AA kills? I would think alcoholism is much more likely to kill.
I'm all for AA if a problem drinker needs it, but I don't necessarily think it's the right solution for every alcoholic. |
Number 100 (4.182.24.156)
| | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 8:34 pm: |
|
Hey cool! I am post #100!!!!
Anyway, I don't see how AA can be a cult. In the present direction of some, who must have a real good sense of humor, I wonder what will be called cult next. I even read a post(not this particular board) that claimed FACTnet was a cult.
Well, to each his own I guess. |
Ben M (12.147.224.62)
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |
|
Basically reposting a former message to at least try to promote a common understanding.
I would just like to remind everyone that A.A. has a policy of attraction rather than promotion and that, as members, we are suggested by our traditions to not express opinions on outside issues. (The public..or random people on the internet being an outside issue)
With that, A.A. is not for everyone. It saved my life. If you find something that works for you and its not A.A, more power to you. We definately have no monopoly on alcoholism, our way of life is only a suggestion.
With Love,
Ben M |
Anonymous (66.109.144.65)
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:42 pm: |
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Attention Ben--
As long as people are court-ordered to your attend bizarre religious rituals the "attraction rather than promotion" remains a big fat LIE.
As long as your fascist cult continues to get tax dollars to convert people to your sick, twisted religion - I will not accept the stupid "outside issue" excuse.
And sorry Ben but your Nazi cult is in public controversy whether you like it or not.
As long as AA continues to violate the Constitution ans stomp on the rights of individuals the way that only a fascist cult can -- I continue to bash AA.
May Alcoholics Anonymous die and I shall piss on its grave. |
Anonymous (172.166.101.70)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 12:17 am: |
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I hope you speak as harshly against Alcoholism (the real killer) to the world as you do against A.A. |
Ben M (12.147.224.62)
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 10:22 am: |
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These are my personal opinions and do not represent the practices, traditions, or text of A.A. in any way
I agree that people should not be court ordered to attend A.A. meetings. Many clubhouses/groups in my area won't sign them anyway. You're right about that.
I also agree that A.A. should not recieve any tax support. I'm not aware of a case in which it has..in fact...I'm pretty certain. The only case of A.A., that I know of, recieving outside support is in 1939 (I believe) the fellowship recieved 2k from Rockafeller.
If it makes you feel any better, if I ever encounter an instance of A.A. accepting outside support I'll do everything to stop it that I can.
A.A.'s 7th tradition states that 'every A.A. group ought to be fully self supporting, declining outside contributions' and I believe in this tradition |
STATISTICS (68.162.29.167)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 2:38 am: |
|
An excerpt from soberforever.net24k
For more stats go to the site
In 1990, the Alcoholic’s Anonymous General Services Office or AA GSO, the governing organization overseeing all “autonomous” meetings, published an internal memo for the employees of its offices. It was an analysis of a survey period between 1977 and 1989. The results were in absolute contrast to the public perception of AA. “After just one month in the Fellowship, 81% of the new members have already dropped out. After three months, 90% have left, and a full 95% have disappeared inside one year!” (Kolenda, 2003, Golden Text Publishing Company) That means that in under a year, 95% of the people seeking help from AA leave the program. While this only speaks for attendance, it has further implications. AA surveyors do not include dropouts in their sobriety statistics, which is a deceptive, if not outright dishonest, practice. Using the AA GSO statistics, and including the program dropouts, the success rate of AA, as a whole “…the total averages of sobriety for the total AA membership become 3.7% for one year [of sobriety], and 2.5% over five years.” (Kolenda, 2003, Golden Text Publishing Company) It’s important to understand that 95% of all substance abuse treatment centers in the United States are 12 step based programs. Thus, the failures of AA, are also the failures of treatment.
Repeated studies have shown that the average person, who could be diagnosed with a substance abuse problem, will discontinue use on their own 20-30% of the time. But, those who are exposed to AA and treatment, and who are taught the disease concept, have a drastically decreased chance of achieving sobriety. While treatment professionals are aware of program failure, governing organizations support and promote the adoption of 12 Step tenets into treatment programs for substance abusers. Families pay tens of thousands of dollars to help their loved ones only to place them in programs that follow guidelines of another failing program. Any program based on a program that fails will inevitably fail. For most, 12 Step has become synonymous with failure.
In contrast, programs that teach control and choice are far more successful than programs that teach the disease concept. While conventional treatment methods result in a 3% success rate after five years, programs that do not teach the disease concept, and instead teach choice, have success rates of 86% after five and even ten years (Baldwin Research Institute 2003).
In conclusion, after reviewing the available research from both sides of the debate, the belief in the disease of alcoholism, creates the existence of the disease. Organizations and institutions that promote the disease concept are, in many cases, doing irreparable harm to the individual and performing a disservice to the population as a whole. Geneticists are aware that a predisposition does not dictate subsequent behavior, and treatment professionals are aware that the programs they offer, fail. It is an outright injustice when faced with the facts. Stripping human beings of their ability to choose is damaging, whereas giving them back the power of their own volition is essential for recovery. Alcoholism is a choice, not a disease. |
Douglas (68.162.29.167)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 2:39 am: |
|
PS
Statistics may not be the gospel but use common sence |
Branch Davidian Child (172.141.9.172)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 9:06 pm: |
|
I think AA is a "cult" in the sense of the methods they use... however, I would not go as far as to lable them a "dangerous cult" because people generally are free to leave. However, as is often seen in other cults, AA focuses heavily on the fact that you are bad, a loser, a quiter, going to relapse (fear), etc. if you leave. Also, while in AA, you are encouraged to "confess" your past "sins" to family, friends, etc. - which, combined with the isolation (created through daily meetings and indoctrinated fear of associating with outsiders), makes it incredibily difficult for a person to find any kind of support outside of the group. Furthermore, there is a large "us vs. them" mentality within AA. If you're not with them, you're against them and regressing to your old ways - and in their mind, if you haven't already started drinking again, you will, because you don't have the group. Don't get me wrong... I think AA is wonderful, and does miraculous things in turning people's lives around. But the lack of options, and the fear of scientific evaluation and honest questioning exhibited by AA definately puts it in the cult category.
**I do not consider "cult" a necessarily derogatory word in and of itself - rather, it is a means of categorizing a group. The actions of any group, cult or not, should determine judgement passed against the group.** |
Branch Davidian Child (172.141.9.172)
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 9:16 pm: |
|
The Big Book
Read it for yourself, and then make an informed judgement *smile* |
Douglas (68.162.51.251)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 12:11 am: |
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BDC
I'm not so sure it does anything miraculous nor turns peoples lives around. I think some get better in spite of it and others there just transfer their addiction to coffee and cigarettes
I think AA is wonderful, and does miraculous things in turning people's lives around. |
Anonymous (195.92.67.77)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 5:20 am: |
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i am an alcoholic. i tried absolutely everything possible to quit. nothing worked... apart from aa. it saved my life. u are not forced to belive in anything. nobody dictates to you. people help eachother recover by sharing their experience. i could leave aa any time i wanted but i dont want to leave. by unloading my problems at an aa meeting, i feel better. by working the program, i can deal with life on lifes terms. i dont have to struggle with lifes problems so much because i get help and support from my friends in aa. isnt it funny that all the people who slag off aa are the bitter ones? aa has taught me to be humble, caring, loving, the list is endless. the people who are really angry, bitter, and single minded, are the people who need this program most! aa has amazing results, turning drunks in2 respectable, good people. the person who chose to diss aa should really get their facts and figures right beforhand. it could mislead a practising alcoholic and ruin their chance of recovery. |
Branch Davidian Child (172.170.249.46)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 12:41 pm: |
|
:isnt it funny that all the people
:who slag off aa are the bitter ones?
:aa has taught me to be humble, caring,
:loving, the list is endless. the people
:who are really angry, bitter, and single
:minded, are the people who need this
:program most!
I'm not an alcoholic, and never have been. I'm not angry, and I'm not bitter. I consider myself a loving, caring person, and considering my past I don't think anyone who knows me could rightfully call me single-minded.
BUT...
I think there are problems with AA, big problems, problems that I spoke more specifically of in my earlier post and that others have spoken specifically of. I think it's great if AA helped you - but I also find it rather disturbing that you seem to feel that AA is the only program that can help someone. If honest and open discussion about AA "could mislead a practising alcoholic and ruin their chance of recovery" then there really is a problem. Ethical groups do not fear discussion or use fear-tactics to prevent discussion. You have shown both. |
Anonymous (195.92.67.71)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 6:04 am: |
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I did not say that aa is the only program 2 help someone. it was the only thing that worked for ME personally and the only thing that worked for a lot of others but i agree that its not for everyone!
theres a very thin line between alcoholism and heavy drinking aswell and there are lots of treatments available for both that work.
I also do NOT believe that honest and open discussion about aa can ruin someones chance of recovery. I do beleive however, that its unfair to mislead people into thinking that aa as a whole is like a cult. maybe theres a minority group with some really sick people in it and its sad that people have had a bad experience with a particular aa group but i do aa meetings online all over the world and i am yet to find even 1 group that resembles the ones described. believe me, if aa was a cult, i certainly wouldnt be a member!! |
Anonymous (195.92.67.71)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 6:25 am: |
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HI. i love a good discussion!!!!!!!!
Lets get real here. There are nutters and cults and stuff everywhere!! If i met a few people from a cult in weight watchers, it would be really silly for me to class all weight watchers groups as cults yeah?
If anyone asked me the best treatment to arrest the disease of alcoholism, i would suggest AA.
Nobody can have the correct figures and statistics because there are so many alcoholics that are in denial or go back into denial after a period of recovery.
Its taking a bit of a risk advising aa people to ditch their meetings though.
A lot of AA people who leave AA after a period of sobriety, sink back into denial, and relapse. Hundreds of people die from the disease of Alcoholism and i wouldnt like that on my conscience!
If alcoholics can sober up without AA, good luck to them. Thats really good. But if anyone who reads this has a drinking problem,just try AA and find out for yourself what its really like. Go to a couple of different meetings and decide if you think its a dodgy cult. I'm sure you will find the complete opposite. Why on earth would doctors now be suggesting it if it were a cult? |
Anonymous (195.92.67.71)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 6:44 am: |
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HAD TO LAUGH AT THE POST FROM SOBERFOREVER WHICH PROVIDED STATISTICS. JUST TO LET EVERYONE KNOW THAT WHEN I VISITED THIS SOBERRECOVERY SITE, I FOUND THE JUDE THADDEUS PROGRAM WHICH IS A PROGRAM YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR!!
MAYBE A SLY WAY OF ADVERTISING HEY?
AT LEAST AA IS FREE TO TRY. |
Anonymous (195.92.67.65)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 11:28 am: |
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So there u have 3 friends who say aa is definately not a cult. |
Branch Davidian Child (172.162.68.213)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 12:20 pm: |
|
Meetings online have a totally different dynamic than real-life groups. To say you do AA groups all over the world online does nothing to refute the fact that many people, who are obviously from various places and various groups, have had experiences with AA that resembled cult behavior.
And now... for a demonstration of circular logic (a common cult tactic)...
QUOTE:
the person who chose to diss aa should really get their facts and figures right beforhand. it could mislead a practising alcoholic and ruin their chance of recovery.
QUOTE:
I also do NOT believe that honest and open discussion about aa can ruin someones chance of recovery.
Need I say more? |
Anonymous (195.92.67.77)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 5:29 pm: |
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I think youre a little confused.
The term "diss" was used the american way. To "diss" something in my vocabulary means to put something down, criticise it, you know. Maybe you thought i meant discuss. Honest discussion is fine by me, but i dont agree that there has been honest discussion. Tell u what, find out exactly how many aa meetings go on in the world. Then find out how many meetings apparantly resembled cult behaviour. look at the statistics. Youre probably more likely 2 win the lottery than find several cult type aa meetings.need i say more? |
Anonymous (195.92.67.77)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 5:37 pm: |
|
COULD BRANCH DAVIDIAN CHILD WORK FOR A TREATMENT PROGRAM LIKE THE ONE AT SOBERRECOVERY? (SEE ABOVE )
COULD HIS DETERMINATION 2 PERSUADE OTHERS THAT AA IS A CULT, BE REALLY A TACTIC FOR PEOPLE TO PAY LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY FOR AN ALTERNATIVE TREATMENT?hmmm |
Branch Davidian Child (172.175.7.218)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 7:52 pm: |
|
No, Anon77, I do not work for a treatment program. If you notice, I did not even begin posting here until well after this discussion was underway. So to say that I am the one with "determination 2 persuade others that AA is a cult" is quite a misleading statement. Furthermore, I'm not confused at all. You disagree with my opinion, so you consider my statement and that of many others with personal experience "dissing," when what is taking place here is a discussion. That shows quite a bit of fear of said discussion if you ask me. Finnally - I don't know anything about SoberRecovery per se, but I bet if we discussed other recovery programs at least some of them would also resemble cults and use cult-like tactics. |
Douglas (68.162.59.129)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 10:09 pm: |
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"So there u have 3 friends who say aa is definately not a cult" all with the same routing number. What a coincidence! |
Douglas (68.162.59.129)
| | Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 10:15 pm: |
|
Sober recovery was something I found that had statistics quoted in it because everyone was asking about statistics so I looked something up. You got any better ones, Anonymous (195.92.67.77)? |
Anonymous (195.92.67.68)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 5:30 am: |
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oooh.NO I HAVNT ACTUALLY DOUGLAS. WISH I HAD.and yes douglas, we have the same number because the three of us are sending posts from one computer, thats why. i dont fear discussion at all. its really interesting to hear how strongly some people feel about aa, whether its supporting it or not. at the end of the day, aa doesnt work for everyone. i can see that now but because it helped me so much, i wanted to tell other people in case it could help them too.
and i wanted to make clear that all the meetings ive ever been to, do NOT resemble cults. Also, when i do meetings online, or go to aa chatrooms, i am yet to find anyone who displays cultish behaviour.
Before i read the very first post here, i had absolutely no idea that there was AA meetings out there that resembled cults, and my experience with aa was so different and so good, but i guess you learn something new everyday. aa is so big these days, i suppose theres bound to be the odd sick meeting but i bet very few and far between.
My opinion is... when dealing with recovery from alcoholism, do whatever works for you because its a fatal illness.ive been there, and i found a solution that worked for me and thousands of others. my life was a living hell when i was in the depths of alcoholism and i personally, am so grateful for aa because of all the help i recieve there.by others sharing their experience in aa meetings, i have learned a lot and continue to learn new things. i recieve so much help and support from the fellowship and have made some wonderful friends. |
Douglas (141.153.130.183)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 11:41 pm: |
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Most of the AA meetings I attended many people were chain smoking and chain coffee drinking but a lot of people were not. That was 30 years ago. |
branch davidian child (172.165.186.84)
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 2:11 am: |
|
I used to be involved with Al-Anon & Al-Ateen due to the drinking problem of a family member. I'd already been through hell on earth though, and I considered myself fairly well adjusted. I mean, when you watch most of your friends and family burn to death on national television while your teacher informs the class that "those people" were ignorant, suicidal, cult members, and terrorists (never realizing that one of "those people" was sitting in her class...).
The Al-Anon & Al-Ateen people couldn't deal with my philosophy that life goes on, whether you choose to be a part of it or not. They wanted me to "admit" that I was in "denial" and dwell on thins I couldn't change - like my family member's drinking problem. Then they wanted me to "admit" that since I was thinking about it, it must be a "problem" for me (hello... I was only thinking about it because that's what they wanted me to do). Then they wanted me to do all these stupid steps to "get over" my "issues" with my family member's alcoholism, and "realize" that it wasn't my problem. Which I knew to begin with, and didn't need weeks worth of being tortured by their steps to figure out.
The way the Al-Anon & Al-Ateen people treated me was mind control at it's finest... force me to think about something, to satisfy their idea of what I should be feeling, and then use the circular logic that since I was thinking about it I must need their help.
THAT is why I say that some AA groups resemble cults in the tactics they use. |
Sharon (142.177.97.138)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2004 - 7:46 pm: |
|
In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus says "I came and found you all drunk" I wonder what he meant. I think the whole cult thing has gone one step to far. My Daughter goes to this place where they can tell her what she can and can not wear, what she must listen to, she is not allowed to leave when she wants and she is forced to stay on the grounds. She cannot speak while the teacher is tells her what she should think about. I would like it if she did not have to go but if she does not agents from the government will be at the door to find out why. But then all children should go to school
Here is the thing, if you think aa is a cult,do not go, stay away. If you can not stop drinking on your own and need help and can not find it anywhere else then go to where they can help you.
They ask you to tell all the people that you hurt that you are sorry so you do not have to carry that burden while you are trying to recover. Do we not tell our children that if they hurt someone they should say that they are sorry? It is good for them to free them selves of guilt.
Nothing is perfect and you can find fault with everything if you try hard enough. But AA is the only answer for the drunk who just ran down a child, or the man who just broke his wifes arm. They need a place, who is to help them if not those who understand how they came to be in such an awful situation.
Shame on the lies that say so few are helped, and those that call names. I would guess that none of these are Christian people who would say such things, for it is not very Christ like.
Lies are the work of the devil, who loves to see a drunk slap the face of a loved one. The devil hates AA, for many may be saved there. Because of this I love aa and I have never been there. I have seen those who have and they have regained their lives. |
Anonymous (66.109.144.202)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - 8:48 pm: |
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Attention Sharon,
Thank you for sharing your idiotic fascist bullshit with us.
Adolf Hitler was sober -- he was a fucking christian too. |
Anonymous (24.39.137.146)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 2:03 pm: |
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excellent point made above!
excellent! |
Anonymous (24.39.137.146)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 2:04 pm: |
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not sharon's...yours anon.
just to clarify! |
Sharon. (142.177.103.128)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 3:39 pm: |
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Oh gee now my feeling are hurt. But to be crushed with such a razor sharp wit, wow, and the language, it really shows your intelligence.
I do not think Hitler was really a Christian as he like you had no love or compassion in his heart. To call oneself a christian is not how one becomes a christian, you must follow Christ. I really can not see Christ killing all those little children. He was very much against that sort of thing don't you know. But then I could not see him kicking the people who go to aa while they are down either, I wonder who would do such a thing.
As to the other part of his christian ship I must say that again you are wrong, he could not be that either as he was impotent. |
Anonymous (69.85.147.242)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 5:23 pm: |
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A.A. is the biggest Cult of Repetition of indoctrination that America has ever created. There may be more 'dangerous' cults but A.A. is the most obvious brain washing there is. |
QAZXS (64.241.230.3)
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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SHARON
JUST IGNORE THE SICK PERSON
THERE MUST BE SOME MENTAL ILLNESS IN HIM OR HER
REALLY DOESNT MAKE SENSE ANYWAY |
qwerty (64.241.230.3)
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:43 pm: |
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THESE KIND OF PEOPLE ARE JUST LOOKING TO GET A RISE OUT OF THE REST OF US. WHEN YU PAY NO ATTENTION TO THESE KIND, THEY JUST MOST OF THE TIME GO AWAY AND BOTHER SOME ONE ELSE THEY CAN GET IN TO A FIGHT WITH PRAY FOR THEM |
Anonymous (66.81.153.48)
| | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 8:20 pm: |
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People who type in all caps with the same routing number as above. |
Anonymous (69.19.181.198)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 1:46 am: |
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"The 12-step cults are the most dangerous as they are the most politically fueled and powerful. AA brainwashes. The same phrases are repeated over and over until it sounds like fact. Repetitive inductrination. Both are rooted in hard-core fascist political ideology and Are hateful & bigoted toward those who don't agree with their idiotic neo-relegious BS. But it's a cult. Attendees are matched with a 'sponsor' who makes sure the new member is indoctrinated. They are told to attend 90 meetings in 90 days, read 'the Big Book' and no other literature. The new member is discouraged from asking questions, associating with outsiders, asking for scientific data to back up the claims AA makes, and especially from asking if there is alternative treatments. If you ask about alternatives programs, or just quitting drinking on your own, you are attacking the institution of AA. become aware of the level of destructive and downright dangerous mind-control tactics that are used within this organization. AA meetings follow a very specific format; members are expected to call themselves “an alcoholic” every time they speak, The obsession with death that is a primary focus of the AA cult has a way of orchestrating the untimely demise of many members. The rate of recovery for people that join AA is about 2.5%. The rate of recovery for people that do not use a program is about 5% a year. AA has a negative recovery rate. That is it, is more likely to lead someone back to drinking than if they avoided AA altogether. It does not work".
I agree. |
Anonymous (69.134.64.166)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:31 pm: |
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1. If you would not get drunk with the people in the meetings RUN!!!!!!!!!!
2. If you would, you are screwed. |
Sharon (142.177.82.115)
| | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 8:07 am: |
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Anon.. they do not get drunk at those meetings, there is no sex there either. No wonder you are not getting any better. You must be speaking of some other group, good Lord, I think you joined a satanist group, were they wearing black robes?
Hateful and bigoted, yes that is them, you should RUN!! |
Anonymous (69.134.64.166)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 12:10 am: |
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I'm not an alcoholic Sharon. Are you? Yes, I have quite a few black robes and a lovely silk blue one.
AA=EXCUSE
My A A
= Responsibility for your actions.
Easy to blame a disease. HARD to look in the mirror and face it. |
Sharon (142.177.97.188)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 8:25 am: |
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Anon...By telling the people that they have hurt with their actions they are doing more than taking responsiblity for their actions, they are accepting that they are out of control and that they need help.
Since you are not in their shoes it is easy to say that you would do this or you would do that but remember it is only by the grace of God that you are not in their shoes.
I have stated that I have never been to a aa meeting but I understand the concept. I can not think of a better plan. In an ideal world God would save us all from such things but this is not an ideal world.
Do you have a better plan, a better way than admitting you problem, helping those you hurt and asking God for help. If you have a better plan that would work for Christians and non Christians alike please state it for the world awaits and is in much need. There are alot of woman and children out there who have to deal with these people and they are praying that aa works, so if you got something better, than you would make the world a better place.
If not and you are a christian or believe in God then I guess prayer is all we can do, but prayer is a mighty weapon so maybe you will use it to do good. The Grace of God covers you but beware that if you judge others you may find your own shoes a little tight for walking. |
Anonymous (84.65.42.13)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 2:13 pm: |
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If you had been to an AA meeting you would know that they ask you to admit you are powerless over your problem, not to admit that you have a problem - this has big implications on a person's view of themselves!! Also, getting drunk whilst attending AA is fairly commonplace, it is called 'relapse' and is an accepted part of 'alcoholism' as defined by AA.
Every single study that has been carried out to measure the effectiveness of AA has shown that it is no more effective than no treatment at all. |
Don (168.103.135.236)
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 9:44 pm: |
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Hi Sharon, I see you're getting beat up again and thought I'd jump in and share the heat with you. As usual, most of the critics, if not all, have no knowledge at all of AA. I share many sentiments with some of the critics, but just read the twelve steps for once. If everyone lived by them the world would be a better place. I have never been coerced in any way at AA meetings. I've seen people for whom AA was the only thing that worked. The thought of "studies" of an anonymous group is ludicrous at best. People trying to help people break their addiction to alcohol can only be considered a real cult by someone who believes EVERYTHING is a cult. When faced with possibility of real cults, they'll brand you a conspiracy nut. To anonymous, it's impossible to measure the effectiveness of any program realisticly. There is so much that is purely subjective, that you are really just blowing smoke with your "every single study." |
Arthur (4.236.78.7)
| | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 11:23 pm: |
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I can't imagine anyone reading all the way down to this--i certainly didn't but i just wanted to add a little something. I recently mostly stopped going to AA meetings after about 2 years of going steadily. The reason it was cultish for me was that I felt
1) There was an underlying assumtion that the steps/program was the "way" whatever that means, in a cultish way, and however you get it is fine, you can do the steps however you want, or you can not do the steps but they'll be there for you when you're ready.
2) I didn't go to stop drinking, i didn't know why i was going, i had a pot problem that I had quit already and I suppose i wanted to be around like minded people and I spent the next two years struggling to prove that I was an alcoholic and that I belonged and just torturing myself mentally about it, always terrified that it would fall out from under me. Now I think this is mostly because I grew up in a cult. But I couldn't break out of this chain of thinking that I have to be an alcoholic and I have to be in AA or else "------" I didn't really know what that "----".
I really think this is a cult experience, whether AA is a cult for everyone or not it was in my case. I thought I would say it in case anyone else had a similar experience. Just a whole lot of useless terror of that I was going to drink if I left AA and drinking wasn't even my problem. I feel better having backed away from it but now I'm sort of left how I was before, without really any friends. |
Anonymous (69.19.182.94)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 1:12 am: |
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Even the most low-down drunks deserve better than the dumb cult of A.A. If you are at all critical of AA dogma in any way then they are said to be a "Dry Drunk" or not in recovery. If, however, one is a brainwashed fanatic of AA dogma they are said to be "In recovery." This proves that A.A. is the biggest Cult of Repetition of indoctrination that America has ever created. There may be more 'dangerous' cults but A.A. is the most obvious brain washing there is. |
Anonymous (69.19.180.166)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 1:48 am: |
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In A.A., a persons addictive symtoms are repeatedly drummed into them & any claims one might have to being okay are attacked as denial. This is what makes the cult of A. A. so dangerous! |
Anonymous (66.81.154.48)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 7:37 pm: |
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-To Magoo
-You Have To practice the A.A. idea of "rigorous honesty" -- "Fake It Until You Make It" and "Act As If", and practice deceptive recruiting on the newcomers -- revealing the truth about the fundamentalist-religious nature of the program to them only "By Teaspoons, Not Buckets".
This HAS GOT to sound familiar to an ex-scientologist.
You have to "keep an open mind" by staying gullible and not being skeptical of voodoo medicine and faith healing. Only then will the Steps "work for you". Work for you to do what? Work to convert you into a true believer in a cult, that's what.
Work to convert you to "our way of life". |
Sharon (142.177.9.20)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 9:43 pm: |
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Don.. thanks for jumping in, looks like you took a few hits yourself. I hear alot of nay saying but no alternatives to staying drunk.
Anon 84... If you are at AA you have already admitted that you have a problem, that is why you are there. That you are powerless over it is rather obvious, again that is why you are there. You are trying to find the tools to gain power back, and many do just that. And you can quote all you want but I know people who have stayed sober because of AA and they give AA the credit so I also give AA credit. Knowledge is power, AA gives you some tools, what you do with them is up to each person. And yes falling off the wagon is a part of recovery, many do and never get back on the wagon, but AA does not hold a grudge against those who fall, for what kind of people would they be if they kicked you when you were down? But if AA did not work for you then you are free to try another method. Nothing is 100% sure cure. |
Anonymous (66.81.159.152)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2004 - 8:26 pm: |
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It's Not a 'spiritual program'. It's a bait & switch con. 1st it's all about 'just keep the plug in the jug', then it's all about the cult group as a 'higher power' or God as Bill W. understood him. And God according to Bill W. was Bill W! |
Anonymous (84.66.42.184)
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 8:07 am: |
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The words brain washing make me smile because after 10 years of drinking alcoholicly, my brain certainly needed a good washing!!!!
When i was drinking, i was filled with anger, resentment, self pity etc. I was not a nice person. I stole, i cheated and i neglected my family. I beleive alcohol stunted my emotional growth.
Since joining aa, i have learned so much about myself and through working the program, i am slowly turning into a better person.
For me, it wasnt just putting down the drink, it was turning my whole life around. AA helped me to do both. I can apply the aa program to all areas of my life.
Life is no longer a struggle because of the help and support i recieve at the meetings.
The compulsion to drink has gone for today and has been gone for the last couple of years.
I tried doctors, sanatariums, ministers, medication, etc and not one of them helped.
AA not only helped me to quit the booze but it has provided a bridge to the wonderful life i have today.
I no longer cheat, steal,neglect my family or crave alcohol at 4am! I have learned to be more patient, tolerant, loving, considerate. I feel like a different person. I know i will never be a saint but i am a much better person today than i was without AA. |
Anonymous (209.214.0.179)
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 10:07 am: |
|
AA gives drunks a safe space to talk and think about the things and their lives the make them want to self-medicate with alcohol (and often other substances and behaviors). It provides an open-ended, way to find strategies and concepts for themselves that help them not die from alcohol abuse and its physical and behavioral damages.
It's just a group of drunks helping each other stay sober long enough to get their shit together and grow up some.
The only requirement is the desire to stop drinking. Notice it's not the determination to stop drinking, or even actually stopping drinking, just the desire to stop. If you don't want to stop, then don't waste everyone's time and energy. That's it - some cult, huh.
Any group of people will have flaws, more so when its a bunch of screwed-up loadies with no leader. To call it a cult is laughable - most people at a meeting have so much personal torment they can barely hang on to their chairs, much less go around controlling others!
The first thing I was ever told at a meeting was : "take only what makes sense for you, and leave all the rest."
I've been sober 11 years now.
---------------------
Here is one thing I do agree with: courts and other legal authorities should NOT "mandate" attendance in AA. The point of AA, what makes it work for so many, is that they want to stop drinking. If someone does not want to stop drinking, going to AA is a waste of everyone's time, and does a disservice to those in the meeting that do want to stop.
The courts and the defendants are much better served by being sent to some other kind of group therapy than AA. They can go to AA if and when they are damned well ready and willing to do so, not because there is a legal gun at their heads.
None of this, however, makes AA a cult in any way shape or form. It does, hoever, make the court system a bit cult-like, no? ;) |
Anonymous (69.19.183.233)
| | Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 10:52 pm: |
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NO-
It makes the court system an Enabler of the Cult of AA.
|
adv925 (adv925)
New member
Username: adv925
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 10:17 pm: |
|
ok you win Im in a cult....Ive got nothing better to do..So how does one treat an incureable disease (according to the american medical association)if you got something that works better youl never catch me at another AA meeting...Please help Im listening....anybody? |
adv925 (adv925)
New member
Username: adv925
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.117.12
| | Posted on Saturday, November 20, 2004 - 10:28 pm: |
|
as for the statistics the american medical association says ....96% of people with alcoholism will die from it. of people who work a "program of recovery like aa's 12 step program the recovery rate is over 75%" So mayby that other 25% had to go out and try the "fun" again and havnt made it back in? or they didnt HONESTLY work the program? Or dead? hey were not perfect ..but aa sure beats the alternative. |
adv925 (adv925)
New member
Username: adv925
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 205.188.117.12
| | Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 9:30 pm: |
|
an update .....after discussing the successs rate with others the common conception is that ..the success rate is 100% for those properly working the program......the people who did not succeed; when asked why, they say I stoped going to meetings i stoped working the steps...basicly I gave up and took MY will back....THE PROGRAM WORKS AS LONG AS YOU WORK THE PROGRAM..THATS IT! |
prschuster (prschuster)
New member
Username: prschuster
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 67.4.184.214
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 6:42 pm: |
|
ADV925, you believe that the success rate of properly working the program is 100%.Even if you could cite a study to that effect, it would be a meaningless statistic. It would be like a circular argument since there is no way to determine who is working a good program except by whether or not it keeps them sober. My experience with AA is that those who went to meetings and were serious about the program were usually the ones who had the most resolve to stay sober. I believe it was their resolve that made the difference, and working the program was only a secondary spin off of this. AA then tells people that it is the program that performs miracles for them - not their own inner strength. I believe that the ones who don't succeed, stop working the steps only after they stop trying to stay clean. In this case it is the lack of resolve, rather than the missing of meetings which causes the relapse. |
shanaraeray (shanaraeray)
New member
Username: shanaraeray
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.215.185.34
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 3:21 am: |
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I loved this whole discussion. HILARIOUS!
You get to be angry if you went to one mtg a month, never got a sponsor and complain that AA didn't work for you. You get to be angry at AA if a judge sentenced you to spend an hour with us. Our laughter can be so painful, and guess what? AA didn't ask any judges to sentence you to our program. You totally get to be mad! It's marvelous. Whoop it up! Do a little dance! We can't stop you from being mad and *shhh*, lean in, we don't want to stop you. You see, this is a secret, AA isn't for people who need it, it is for people who want it.
I have heard people say things in meetings that I have never read in the Big Book. I have never read that AA is the only way to get sober. I don't agree with that. There are lots of ways to get sober. This one worked for me. AA has no monoply on sobriety. That is written in the Big Book. I have also heard people talk about how high IQ's are in Alcoholics Anonymous. I have never read that. I haven't heard any of my Al Anon friends say that. These things are FUNNY! Possibly confusing at first, but if you hang with us, eventually, you too will laugh.
If you are interested in our program, people are doing the best that they can with the information they have gleaned from the days they have spent on the planet. This isn't rocket science. It is one way to live life without having to be drunk all the time. Sometimes we don't say the right thing to everyone. In my experience, you don't have to be in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous for that to happen. Sometimes someone gets overzealous in the way THEY do the program. That is someone being overzealous. It doesn't make them bad, nor does it make the program bad.
I am a happily married woman with a full life and both alcoholic and those-who-have-no-need-to-be-sober friends in my circle. I have a job, I get to go to bars when I want and dance my little booty off. My life is not limited to a basement in some church crying how so and so did me wrong. I take responsibility for the choices and actions I take, sometimes gracefully, other times it is kinda messy. None of it, for me, would have happened without the presence of AA in my life to offer a way out.
Thanks to those who have posted before me and have reacted with serenity in the face of (silly) calamity. It is a gift. |
prschuster (prschuster)
Intermediate Member
Username: prschuster
Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 67.4.182.184
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 8:41 pm: |
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The only reason AA didn't ask the judges to sentence people to their program, is that the traditions have an escape clause that discourages anyone from lending the AA name to any outside entity. That allowed Marty Mann to use a separate organization (now called NCADD) to do the promo for the disease theory, and for its spin off, ASAM, to make the disease theory look scientific. Bill W. and Marty Mann could freely lobby congress and help get the Hughes Act passed without bringing the AA name into it. Do you really think that drug courts would have become so prevalent were it not for 12-step members who do what is essentially 12-step work without bringing the AA name into it? Professional interventionists are also doing 12-step work and helping to build a large, predominantly 12-step, recovery industry without bringing the AA name into it. These traditions of anonymity are nothing but stealth tactics to funnel people into the rooms without having the honesty to admit what is really going on. |
prschuster (prschuster)
Intermediate Member
Username: prschuster
Post Number: 106
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 67.4.182.184
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 9:28 pm: |
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To Shanaraeray:
You say that AA never says that it is the only way to get sober. I've been to enough meetings to understand the bait & switch involved with that statement. The Big Book first says that the steps are "just suggestions", then it states later on that you most likely "sign your own death warrant" if you don't follow their spiritual program. And remember what it says in the chapter: "How it Works" ... "Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program..." (Big Book p. 58).
You know as well as I that 4th step inventories and doing a 5th step are considered essential for recovery, as stated: "...without a fearless admission of our defects to another human being we could not stay sober." (12x12 p. 57). This belief (and please don't tell me that "you don't have to believe anything" in AA) practically mandates doing a 4th & 5th step (and throw the 8th, 9th & 10 in for good measure).
Finally, let's move to the 12th step and 5th tradition. "Carrying the message" is also considered essential for sobriety: "It is the great paradox of AA that we know we can seldom keep the precious gift of sobriety unless we give it away." (12x12 p. 151).
I am trying to show here that the literature clearly states that it is considered necessary to work these steps to prevent relapse. In practice, these "suggestions" are generally considered to be virtual necessities for recovery. If this is the case, why not be upfront and say it like it really is. It seems a bit disingenuous if you don't. |
shanaraeray (shanaraeray)
New member
Username: shanaraeray
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.215.185.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 9:13 am: |
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prschuster...it sounds as though you have found a solution that works for you today. That is great!
So why are you obsessed with a program that didn't work for you? Why not let others find out for themselves if it is a solution for them? Some of your information is true by my interpretation of the BB, but the "why we do it" is spun with insanity. You sound like just another drunk with an ego problem. |
chaya (chaya)
New member
Username: chaya
Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 205.188.116.9
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 9:54 am: |
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I love AA with every fiber of my being!! |
prschuster (prschuster)
Intermediate Member
Username: prschuster
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 67.4.180.241
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:01 am: |
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I'm not obsessed with the program. I'm only upset that I went to those two rehabs looking for help and their experts only gave me one viewpoint, never bothering to mention the other alternatives that are out there. I had to find that info on my own. The rest of the recovery complex (rehabs / interventionists / drug courts etc) is almost exclusively 12-step with no attempt to even mention that there are other approaches.
I am not preventing others from finding out if it is a solution for themselves. That is an odd ball assumption on your part. I have never heard any critic of 12-step programs trying to prevent people from going to AA/NA meetings. I'm only against court mandated attendance and manipulative techniques such as professional interventions.
So I sound like a drunk with an ego problem? This is one of the most predictable things I hear from people in 12-step programs. Actually, I've been on a "dry drunk" for about 8 years since I stopped going to meetings. And I'm living life to the fullest, holding down a job and enjoying life without drinking. I like my ego. It's not a problem with me. It is important to distinguish between healthy self esteem and egotism. The Big Book never seems to make this distinction, being too quick to discourage any sense of self.
This post is in response to Shanaraeray. |
shanaraeray (shanaraeray)
New member
Username: shanaraeray
Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 24.215.185.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
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Really? I have a sense of self. I have a kind of out-there type self and the BB has never said anything that would discourage me from having self-esteem in who I am. My ego does get me in trouble, my reactions get touchy, I lash-out if I think someone is trying to take away something from me. I know what I need to do so that I am not ego-centric all the time.
I didn't say you are preventing anyone. You keep providing bits of literature, out of context and use it to fit your negative ideas of what AA is. You were talking about people who were (presumably) already members of AA like they should not have to do all the work involved to remain sober. If you joined a gym and didn't go, wouldn't that be a waste? If you did go and made up your own routine, can't that hurt you more then help? But, if you did join a gym, asked for help from someone that has been working out a long time to set up a program that could really work for you...wouldn't that make the most sense? Isn't that really the reason you are there?
It's too bad that the tx centers you went too didn't make other suggestions to you. It's too bad that you had such a negative experience. I just had dinner with 25 people under the age of 32 that have all been sober for 5+ years and all seem to be well-adjusted, successful and having a blast in life. We all have come in different ways and we all have balked at various ideas in the program, but we show up every day. We try some things, cry at others and somehow sober life has come together for us. Our lives have grown tremendously and we have great love for each other. None of it has anything to do with a cult, or being brain-washed or courts coming to the conclusion that a 12 step program might help. It isn't as though AA/NA/CA was the one that got the people into the trouble in the first place. Maybe that is where the real problem lays, not in AA existing. |
prschuster (prschuster)
Intermediate Member
Username: prschuster
Post Number: 111
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 67.4.180.159
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:16 pm: |
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To Shanaraeray:
I am aware that there are about a million AA members in the US, and most of them are probably happy to be in the program (except for many of those mandated by the courts). I'll still stick to my personal opnion about the program, which is shared by others who have also left AA/NA. My main point is that the large recovery industry we see today has coercive and manipulative aspects, and it has been engineered primarily by 12-step members in positions of influence regardless of whether they officially lend the AA/NA name to these institutions. Other than that, I have no problem with those who voluntarily embrace the program. |
rationaldl (rationaldl)
New member
Username: rationaldl
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 162.83.234.150
| | Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:53 am: |
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