| Author | Message | ||
     mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1845 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Is the curtain about the fall on the unscrupulous religious pyramid schemes of the "Word of Faith" preachers? The Senate has launched an investigation into the very worst, and most high profile, offenders. Read the story here. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 267 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.23.82.205 |
Well, they ALL have very smart lawyers and accountants -- with all the money/years they have been "in business" NONE of them have ever been brought up on charges that have convicted them. And do we REALLY want our Senate wasting their time on these people? I've always felt it's "buyer beware" and to give where you are fed, so if people want to give to these ministries and others not mentioned, why not? We all know their expensive homes/cars/planes/etc mean they make a LOT of money, so it's no surprise. That's NOT an excuse...just an opinion. As for me, in 2008 I'm writing BIG CHECKS for "little ministries"! | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 788 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.14.57.188 |
What did I miss? I only saw Joyce Meyer in the article, but it mentions 6 ministries. Any idea who the other ones are?? | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 268 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 70.23.76.158 |
Hi CyberMom-- It's Joyce, Copelands, Paula White, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, and Benny Hinn. Here's the article: --- Senate Panel Probes 6 Top Televangelists WASHINGTON (CBS) ― CBS News has learned Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, is investigating six prominent televangelist ministries for possible financial misconduct. Letters were sent Monday to the ministries demanding that financial statements and records be turned over to the committee by December 6th. According to Grassley's office, the Iowa Republican is trying to determine whether or not these ministries are improperly using their tax-exempt status as churches to shield lavish lifestyles. The six ministries identified as being under investigation by the committee are led by: Paula White, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, Eddie Long, Kenneth Copeland and Benny Hinn. Three of the six - Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar - also sit on the Board of Regents for the Oral Roberts University. A spokesperson for Joyce Meyer Ministries provided CBS News with an IRS letter to the ministry dated October 10, 2007, that stated: "We determined that you continue to qualify as an organization exempt from Federal income tax." The letter could not be independently verified in time for this story. The ministry also pointed to audited financial statements for the last three years that are posted on the organization's Web site. In a statement, Benny Hinn's spokesperson, Ronn Torossian, said the ministry was in the process of determining the best course of action in response to the Senate investigation. "World Healing Center Church complies with the laws that govern church and non-profit organizations and will continue to do so," Torossian wrote. In a statement to CBS News, Creflo Dollar called his ministry an "open book" and said he would comply with any "valid request" from Grassley. But he noted that the inquiry raised questions that could "affect the privacy of every community church in America." The other three ministries did not respond to requests for comment from CBS News on Monday. Because they have tax status as churches, the ministries do not have to file IRS 990 forms like other non-profit organizations - leaving much financial information largely behind closed doors. The letters sent Monday were the culmination of a long investigation fueled in part by complaints from Ole Anthony, a crusader against religious fraud who operates the Dallas-based Trinity Foundation, which describes itself as a watchdog monitoring religious media, fraud and abuse. "We've been working with them for two years," Anthony told CBS News. "We have furnished them with enough information to fill a small Volkswagen." Anthony said after twenty years of working with media organizations to expose televangelists, he saw little reform. He says that's why he turned to another tactic, going straight to Grassley. He is confident that Grassley's inquiry will be different, "What we hope is that this will lead to reform in religious nonprofits." The structure of many televangelist organizations - in which the leadership is often concentrated in one person or one family - has itself been the target of criticism. "Churches like these are ruled as a dictatorship," says Rod Pitzer, who directs research at Ministry Watch in North Carolina, which provides advice for donors to Christian organizations. Pitzer welcomes the Senate committee investigation. Ministries lacking accountability, he says, "give a black eye to churches and Christians who are trying to do things in the right manner." | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 789 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.14.57.188 |
Thanks for the info. I'm not surprised. Any way to get other names on that list?  | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1849 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Call Sen. Grassley's office or send him an email. If he learns of other serious financial abusers I bet he'd be willing to expand the investigation | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 269 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.21.44 |
I also hope/pray that perhaps this is a wake-up call for the other "ministries" that are living high off the hog. And BTW, regardless of what you think of the people under investigation, DO pray for them if you think about it. You all know I support/supported some of the people as I raised money for the missionary group I worked with in Romania. The Copelands already supported the group and increased their support by 20% when I began to update them on the ministry. They had been supporting the pastors for more than 20 years. Andrew Wommack already supported the group, Joyce and Dave Myer were focused on Asia, but I got a couple very nice and supportive e-mails from Paula White. And then Paula sent the group $500, which is a LOT of money for a Romanian ministry! So yes, we may all question these people but they ARE using the funds to do some good. Sometimes. (!) Here is the website for the Romania group if you're interested! -- http://www.yv.org.ro/ | ||
| granite Intermediate Member Username: granite Post Number: 204 Registered: 4-2006 Posted From: 72.24.207.240 |
There are several more names that belong on the list with this RAT PACK, Cybermom! These soothsayers are making merchandise of God's people, and they will continue fleecing the flock as long as gullible Christians wish to remain ignorant and turn a blind eye to what everyone looking in from the outside can plainly see. God's complaint is: "For My people are foolish... they are sottish." Sottish means STUPID or RETARDED! (Jeremiah 4:22) They have allowed the pope and these Jezebels and charlatans to pull the wool over their eyes and rob their pockets and spoil their minds. These people are treacherous and deceptive, and their message is vain. What people fail to realize is that often it is not what they say that is so bad, but what they do NOT say! They have a misplaced emphasis and an out of balance message (usually prosperity/giving-based) because they have an agenda for their followers. "Ephraim, is a cake not turned." (Hosea 7:8) -- That is to say, they are like a pancake that is batter on one side and burnt on the other! Their extravagant lifestyles betray them, and preach a clearer message to the world than anything else they say. tracts@juno.com | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 970 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
I also hope that any investigation would cause these people to wake up ... but I honestly don't see that happening. Face it ... these ministries have been criticized by believers and non-believers for years. There have been media stories exposing how these people live ... the lavish living, the sin, etc. Have we seen any true repentance? What makes you think a government investigation or a few criminal charges against these people will change anything? I'm sure we will hear how they are being persecuted, if caught in anything illegal we will see some sorrow (sorrow over being caught), we may even see a change in how these people do business .... but true repentance? I hope and pray I'm wrong ... but I just don't see it. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 270 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.126.145 |
And it IS sort of funny--our silly, dishonest and wasteful government investigating some silly, at times dishonest and at times wasteful TV preachers...Pot calling the kettle black! !  I think it will just fall apart and nothing will happen. Like I posted earlier, they ALL have smart lawyers and accountants and I doubt if they are doing anything illegal. MAYBE immoral--God knows--but if people WILLINGLY give their money and the ministers DO perform "good works" then I doubt if anything is really illegal. They all learned from the Bakkers years ago, and Joyce Meyer went out of her way to correct her financial "confusion" years ago. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 971 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Pot calling the kettle black! Agreed.... leaders in both government and the church seem to be suffering from the same mindset that places self-interest over the greater good. May God help us all!  | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 790 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.14.57.188 |
I don't think comparing government bureaucracy to televangelists is accurate. While they both waste fortunes, they come by it in different ways. But the government doesn't guilt trip or manipulate the poor/elderly/gullible into giving away rent or food money in the blind hope of "getting". At least I don't see them as quite the same thing. And I think the "church people" are more evil, in that they are doing it in the name of God. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 277 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.20 |
HELLO CM! Looooong time, no talk. Hope you are well! Formerly GAG (Was banned and reincarnated as SGNG)... Just thought I'd say "hi"... | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 972 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
But the government doesn't guilt trip or manipulate the poor/elderly/gullible into giving away rent or food money in the blind hope of "getting". Sure they do ... it called LOTTO.  | ||
| dtkolich New member Username: dtkolich Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 72.95.244.52 |
If you want to investigate preachers look at rick hufton. When Marge Hufton says she is goint to preach to prostitutes in Washingpark, il I wonder if she isn't collecting from them. They want to handle a girl's ministry.i'd check to make sure they aren't prostituting them out. When some people in the church says Rick has preachedpre game sermons to the NFL i hope that the NFL would be more select in their dealings with these pyramid preachers. I think the NFL is a cut above the sleeze of the Rick Hufton's of the world. Hufton, get from behind the women in your church and get control of them. try IL 8079974, 1643766. Go back to England Hufton. or don't they want you there either. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 791 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.14.57.188 |
Hi, SGNG Yeah, it's been a while. Needed time to detox (from ex-cult stuff) a little. Plus it seems a little less hostile at the moment. We'll see. marta Lotto.  Forgot about that one. Touche. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 744 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 71.229.6.252 |
Forget which end of the hog someone lives on, think about our economy! With the demise of Tammy Faye, our nation's cosmetic industries is in shambles. The stock market is reeling, posting new declines daily. If we lose one more makeup queen, we will be back in the depression of the thirties!! Leave these women alone, please! | ||
| trsrinheaven Senior Member Username: trsrinheaven Post Number: 1364 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Lets not miss this opportunity of reporting partners in money laundering crimes Preacher Robb Thompson and his buddy Mike Murdock. Sen. Chuck Grassley 135 Hart Senate Bldg. Washington, DC 20510-1501 202.224.3744 Senate Panel Probes 6 Top Televangelists WASHINGTON (CBS) Nov 2007 CBS News has learned Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, is investigating six prominent televangelist ministries for financial misconduct. Proof that is on IRS records of Murdock, Thompson launders money with Mike Murdock (each a 501c3 non-profit org) buying and giving Mike Murdocks organization a $75,000 BMW while Murdock in turn gives Thompsons organization checks totaling that amount calling it an offering birthday present(months after his birthday) and mortgage payments for his house.(Average check $15,000). Taking offering money and giving it to each other claiming the tax deduction illegaly trying to avoid the IRS and taxes. $25,000 birthday gift in July? Thompsons birthday is in April. The links below are photos of Thompsons $3.2 million dollar house (bought with church offering money) and it is in fact the inside of the his house. The author took pics while inside his house for one of the wedding receptions. http://www2.uic.edu/~kpurin1/robb/house.htm http://www2.uic.edu/~kpurin1/robb Bought with offering money Thompson brags about his $5,000 Brioni suits from the stage, buys $1,000 shoes, $500 ties, Gold braelets and chains, wears his $30,000 Rolex watches, drives his $80,000, $150,000, $550,000 automobile fleet of luxury cars, and talks with disgust patronizingly at people that have less then him. All this while NEVER giving any member a financial statement. http://www.religionnewsblog.com/9790/ Dallas Ft Worth Newspaper In 2002 and 2003, the ministry gave $72,000 to televangelist Robb Thompson of Tinley Park, Ill. Murdock has described Thompson as one of his closest friends. The figure includes an April 2003 check for $8,500 with the notation “B. Day gift.” In July 2002, the ministry gave Thompson a $25,000 check with the notation “happy birthday!!” Thompson received another check that year for $15,000 with the notation “one house note!” No records of reimbursement for the checks could be found. Thompson did not return a phone call seeking comment. Thompson’s birthday is in April, Illinois driver’s license records show. Pitzer said the payments “look blatantly wrong.” Vargas said that a large cash gift from a charitable organization to an individual seems “very out of the ordinary” .... If conducting an audit, an IRS examiner would investigate the relationship between the person receiving the gift and the organization to determine whether it was legal, Vargas said. Prus said Thompson has been a speaker at past ministry conferences, but he declined to comment further on the checks. Murdock and Thompson often exchange gifts, said Murdock’s son, Jason Murdock, who lives in Atlanta. “They’ve always done that kind of thing,” he said in a telephone interview last month. “I’ve seen it happen multiple times: `Here’s a love gift. Here’s 25 G’s,’” meaning $25,000. A few years ago, Thompson gave Mike Murdock a BMW delivered from Germany, Jason Murdock said. At an October 2002 conference in Grapevine, Texas, Mike Murdock said a friend gave him a new BMW 745 delivered from Germany. Such a car would probably cost about $70,000 if purchased new. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 751 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
The investingation into the spending habits of obvious pentecostals is tantamount to fraud. To some extent, this invasion is racialistic at best. Any investigation into wrong doing of a 501(c)(3) (non-profit corporation) should be handled by the Internal Revenue Service and must include all religions. The more I read on the subject, the more this becomes a witch hunt. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 277 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.171.167 |
This article somewhat addresses the IRS issue as it pertains to the investigation. It's from The Quad-City Times, Davenport, IA ----- God willed them to be wealthy Raise your hand if you’d volunteer to read U.S. Sen. Chuck Grassley’s mail for him? In coming weeks, the senator from Iowa should be hearing back from six of the nation’s wealthiest evangelical ministers about some money questions. As top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, Grassley sent letters last week to leaders of these mega-churches, hoping to find out whether they’re abusing their tax-exempt status. What business does a U.S. senator have poking around in the financial matters of churches? Better question: Why has no one else bothered to poke? Go, Chuck, go! He is investigating the lavish lifestyles of these ministers, largely on behalf of the donors who have made them rich. But he’s also exercising his committee’s jurisdiction over the IRS and federal tax policy. He’d like to know whether those policies provide for private jets, Rolls-Royces and millions of dollars in “love offerings” to preachers. The question he hopes to answer: Are some public charities that are benefiting from considerable tax breaks following IRS guidelines? His list of disclosure requests includes credit card statements, clothing expenses, bank accounts and vehicle and aircraft inventories. He’s even asking for a disclosure of cosmetic surgeries, suggesting that even ministers are sometimes dissatisfied with the face God gave them. Among those ministers are Bishop Eddie L. Long (Bishop Eddie?) of Lethonia, Ga. A couple of years ago, a church spokesman said Long doesn’t get a salary but instead receives a “love offering.” Grassley wants to know how much love’n he’s been gett’n. The senator has asked Randy and Paula White of the Tampa-based Paula White Ministries to explain the “tax-exempt purpose” of the Bentley convertible they reportedly gave to a fellow preacher. Creflo and Taffi Dollar (Is it blasphemous to point out how much that sounds like a stripper’s name?) are being asked to explain the half-million dollar “personal gift” they reportedly gave to another minister in celebration of an anniversary. [I BELIEVE THIS MAY BE MONIES GIVEN TO THE COPELANDS FOR THEIR 40TH ANNIVERSARY IN MINISTRY, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS MORE THAN $500,000...-Bachman] Oh. And Grassley is curious about the two Rolls-Royces the couple’s ministry bought for them. Nosey, isn’t he? It is entirely possible that some or most of these ministers will point out that they’re part of the so-called prosperity gospel, meaning they preach a relationship between material and spiritual success. Others will say the fact they are not tied to a traditional church is part of the problem — no denominational oversight. But that’s not the only oversight that’s missing. How many billion-dollar industries enjoy this level of hands-off government? The IRS requires that pastor compensation be “reasonable” and supposedly prevents them and church insiders from “excessive personal gain.” And this is where Grassley comes in. Maybe the man whose bid for re-election to the U.S. Senate included TV commercials that showed him mowing his own lawn is the perfect guy to look into a more lavish side of life. But he’d better be ready for the backlash from those who see his questions as an assault on Christianity and churches everywhere. Obviously, he’s just sore because God didn’t buy him a lawn service. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 289 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.20 |
"Any investigation into wrong doing of a 501(c)(3) (non-profit corporation) should be handled by the Internal Revenue Service and must include all religions." Well, I never thought I'd say this but I AGREE WITH YOU... This is politically motivated and is being driven by Evangelical Christians... nothing ticks me off more than Christians attacking other Christians, Ministers and Ministries outside the guidelines set forth in Matthew 18. What a sad commentary on the state of affairs in "The Church" (the Christian world) today. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 290 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.20 |
However, having said that... if wrongdoing is uncovered it should addressed and made right immediately. | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 752 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Bachman: Could you tell me why the pope is not providing the same information? How about the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? What about some of the Baptist tele-evangelists? Then, of course, deal with the Seventh Day Adverntist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc, etc. Then one must also deal with black churches who turn their pulpits into political platforms at election times. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 279 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.249.156.233 |
Hi the_apostolic_truth_ministries-- I can't really answer your question; if you recheck the post I added, it was an article from a newspaper and just shed some light on the IRS involvement. It wasn't my personal post/viewpoint. But in an attempt to answer--not defend--your question, in NYC (where I live) a few Catholic priests that live in "wealth" HAVE been investigated and because the Pope doesn't live in a "house" (so to speak) but in church-owned property, I think it's a different story. Charles Stanley is the only Baptist tele-evangelist I know of and as for the other denominations, I don't think they have a tremendous TV presence so they are "below the radar". I agree many Black--and other--churches put forth political views at election time. Like I've posted, when you mix politics and Jesus, you get politics. The Church has yet to realize this. The Apostle Paul--during one of the most corrupt and immoral government regimens ever --NEVER told Christians how to vote, what to protest, etc. He only said to "Preach the gospel." If only the church would do as she was told...! | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 756 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
M(r)(s). bachman: Quoting: "But in an attempt to answer--not defend--your question, in NYC (where I live) a few Catholic priests that live in "wealth" HAVE been investigated . . . " End quote. By who? Quote: ". . . the Pope doesn't live in a "house" . . . " End quote. So you see no problem with the world's poorest giving billions to support luxurious vacation villas and pope mobiles, but object to the richest giving to pentecostals? I think I can swallow that line. If, we are going to waste taxpayers' dollars on religious persecutions, at least spend it stop the next Heaven Gate cult. By the by, we have thousands of death cults in the USA today, many masquerading as mainline religions. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 280 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.30.160 |
It's MR Bachman to you, Mr/Ms/Miss the_apostolic_truth_ministries New York Magazine, New York Press, New York Daily news and NY Times have ALL investigated and exposed Catholics such as Monsignor John Woolsey, who stole more than $800,000 from his parish to finance vacations, country clubs and fancy clothes. That happened in 2006 I think and was a big deal here in NYC. Because I'm not Catholic, I don't recall the names of the others--another fellow had an affair with a woman last spring and made off with the money and I think he spent much of the funds on clothing. Anyway, it's not "just" the Penecostals if that was your point. I think it's also important to point out that people (myself included) give WILLINGLY to these and other ministers. No one forces me to give and I think the percentage of "aging widows" who give their lifesavings is very, very small. We simply don't know but those are the stories we hear over and over. To me, these people are simply foolish to give their last dime or savings. It's THEIR responsibility to smarten up and I can't blame the TV evangelists because I really don't believe he or she wants to see someone "go under" because the giver misunderstood the message the TV preacher was giving. Honestly, like them or not, these TV people (the ones we are mentioning) ARE Christians and I have no reason to believe they go home at night and roll in piles of money. Like I have posted, I have personal experiences with several of them and they DO GIVE to others in need, etc. I don't think that is the question -- it's how they spend the money they receive and if it is not in balance, then I think God would have already told them and they didn't hear or He said it was fine and in that case, the investigation will go no where. Also, please don't even consider this POSSIBLE investigation as "religious persecution." The Christians in places like North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, the Maldives are being persecuted. This situation does not even compare with what they are experiencing. You wrote: --- "So you see no problem with the world's poorest giving billions to support luxurious vacation villas and pope mobiles, but object to the richest giving to pentecostals?" --- It reads like you are saying most/all Catholics who give are "the world's poorest" while those who give to pentecostals are "the richest?" I'm not certain where you get that information. A 1990s study shows that Roman Catholics give less than Protestants...http://www.emptytomb.org/cathgiv.html ...not sure what newer data would show. I would think people of BOTH faiths run the extreme from very rich to very poor. Regardless, people are free to give and spend as they see fit. Including the Pope. If you feel he or an organization is out of line, report them. But please, don't EVER call it religious persecution! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 294 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.20 |
Bach How well attended is Cref's church NYC, and do they still meet in MSG? | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 282 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.30.160 |
saygoodnightgracie, Cref's NYC church moves about a bit and it usually meets at MSG, but you can find the latest here: --- http://www.worldchangerschurchnewyork.org/ --- I went there for about 6 months and really liked it but it was impossible to meet anyone. They claim about 6000 people attend and I worked with the media group but it was basically e-mailing scripts and music cues for the "World News" which was a 2-minute video of what was coming up. No small groups at this time which is a shame because I personally want the fellowship. He started a Wed night service but he "beams in" live via satellite from GA to cut down on his travel so I skipped that--I can watch him on TV. They were believing for $80 million for a building but no one could tell me if that was to "buy land" or "buy an existing building." In other words, why was $80 million selected? So it's a BIG church and everyone is very friendly and welcoming BUT... even though the media people had my e-mail and I contributed a lot...when I stopped going last June, I never received and e-mail or phone call asking where I was/if I was okay. (And I'm okay!) | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 757 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. bachman: Have any idea what the per capita income is for, say, Mexico? How would you rate the per capita income of Mexico to the USA? How about the other third world nations that pay taxes to the pope? Persecution: Noun 1 : the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook 2 : the condition of being persecuted, harassed, or annoyed Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary Sounds like religious (Christian, no) persecutions to me. Based on the belief of this religion and its origin, it is not Christian. (Sorry). | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 298 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.20 |
"when I stopped going last June, I never received and e-mail or phone call asking where I was/if I was okay" They DO call TRS, Nikita and Ult 1 fairly regularly however, usually for money. Thanks Bach and REMEMBER, a contentious wife is like a dripping faucet... | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 284 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.249.144.12 |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries: To answer your questions: The income per capita is $7,310 in Mexico. Mexico and third world citizens who have a low income still CHOOSE to give to the Catholic church and the Pope/et al even though they KNOW their leaders live in plush surroundings. Those who give to the Catholic church KNOW this and they continue to give, their choice. I'm not saying it's right, but again, it's a choice. I've worked in Romania, another VERY poor, Catholic-based country and they, too, give what they can to their church. It's a religious tradition for them, centuries old and hard to break. I still believe you are overstating the case when you state this is "religious persecution" because it is an INVESTIGATION, not even active at this time. So I guess we agree to somewhat disagree. Here is the link to a good article about the legal and governmental aspect as printed in Christianity Today: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/novemberweb-only/145-45.0.html One excerpt helps clarify the issue: ------------ Q: Could a ministry pay for cosmetic surgery for its pastor? A: Yes, so long as the total amount of compensation paid to the pastor is reasonable in amount. The IRS cannot prescribe the form of compensation that a church pays its pastor. The First Amendment would prohibit this. The problem in these cases is that a church fails to report a taxable benefit as taxable income. This can lead to significant problems. ------------- I think the key is "benefit" vs "income" and that's why I think the smart lawyers for these groups will be certain no one "gets caught." And I DO like that the First Amendment restricts the gov't from setting salaries. The ministries need to respond by December 6, 2007.} | ||
| nikita Intermediate Member Username: nikita Post Number: 456 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.29.64.120 |
Gracie? ....again your putting my name in with the other two? I don't know what I have ever done to you, or even said to you for you to keep using my name, but honestly.......you are making a mistake if you think that I am either one of the two people that you keep lumping me in with. This is the only reason that I guess...... you keep putting my name there. Or..maybe you just want me to respond? Maybe you want to talk to me, hmmmm. My IP address is totally different, you can check for yourself. I have, agreed with Trs on occasion, but most times I don't even comment, so this seems a little weird but.... Ok...well whatever floats your boat Gracie. Maybe I'll start putting your name in with two other people for no reason. But then... that would be as weird as what you're doing so I guess not. Ok...then, well whatever. Nikita | ||
| the_apostolic_truth_ministries Advanced Member Username: the_apostolic_truth_ministries Post Number: 761 Registered: 10-2005 Posted From: 12.217.145.168 |
Mr. Bachman: Quoting: "Those who give to the Catholic church KNOW this and they continue to give, their choice. I'm not saying it's right, but again, it's a choice." End quote. Are you now suggesting that pentecostals are forced to give money to these ministers? | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 993 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
Nikita, Don't let it bother you ... it's just a little game people play here on FactNet ... trying to figure out who is who ... I have my own suspicions about who saygoodnightgracie might really be. Hey saygoodnightgracie, do you now or have you ever owned a "disguise kit" that contains several fake moustaches and a $1,200 custom-made wig? | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 303 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.20 |
Nikita: I'm just playing Nikita, as Rachel said - it just seems that you show up to take up TRS's cause at times... THAT'S ALL. I don't care who you are or what your ip is, etc. By all means, put my name "in" with two other people, if need be I would be glad to make some suggestions... like Hardrock, Cocoa and ? Hi Marta: First of all, you know EXACTLY who I am. You posted my personal info on a Family Harvest thread a couple of years ago - so really, there's no need to be suspicious. Based on that in fact, it is a little game that YOU and others play on Factnet, trying to figure out who is who. Also, I've never hidden the fact that I am Getagrip, I was banned under that username based on a conversation I had with the moderater, whereby I inadvertantly posted on a thread where he had asked me not to. I explained the situation to him, and he let me right back on. I was unable to use the "Getagrip" username and took the moniker SGNG. So, again anyone who wants to know my "real" name can find it in the Family Harvest threads (and they have), and really, most who have interacted with me here know that I was "Getagrip". No secrets, and no big deal. Glad you know who I am, and nice to make your acquaintance. The wig and disguise kit sound very nice, I'll have to look into that - thank you for the suggestion. | ||
| marta Advanced Member Username: marta Post Number: 994 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.194.175.25 |
saygoodnightgracie, Yes I do know who you are .... so, obviously I was just joking. As for the past, I thought you and I had moved on ... I forgave you .... you forgave me ... but obviously you still have a lot of anger toward me. I'm sorry if I caused you any problems and wish you the best. | ||
| nikita Intermediate Member Username: nikita Post Number: 457 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 76.29.64.120 |
Thanks Marta, saygoodnightgracie, alrighty then. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 304 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.20 |
no marta no anger, none whatsoever... and btw when i see your name I always enjoy your reading your posts... definitely "moved on". and i thought the mustache thing was funny, i prefer goatee or handlebar mustache for disguises. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 305 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.20 |
DeRita, Besser and ? Vince, Dom and ? Fatone, Piscopo and ? | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 285 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 71.249.151.237 |
the_apostolic_truth_ministries: You asked: "Are you now suggesting that pentecostals are forced to give money to these ministers? You may have forgotten but I already posted that answer earlier in our exchanges: --- "I think it's also important to point out that people (myself included) give WILLINGLY to these and other ministers." -- I think (?) we do agree somewhat on the need to give wisely, to listen and check out to whom we give to, and to be watchful that our government does not begin to be an unreasonable and unconstitutional "watchdog" for religious organizations. Anyway, that's the common ground I think we share and that's the best place to be. It'll be interesting to see how the ministries, the gov't and the media respond to all of this! | ||
| heynow Intermediate Member Username: heynow Post Number: 430 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 71.140.202.39 |
I am surprised the "Granddaddy" of them all wasn't in the mix. Namely Paul Crouch. He was in the news a few years ago. Something about paying out "hush" money. | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 301 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.169.190 |
Paula White is scheduled to be on Larry King/CNN Monday evening Nov 26. | ||
| anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 320 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 70.240.75.39 |
I wondered about Crouch too. Maybe they're saving him till later. But somehow I don't think they're going after him. Hope I'm wrong. In fact I wonder how hard they're going to come down on any of them. They are all being used on one level or another to bring the church into the world religious body - the Harlot. Figures. I'm glad to be seeing some charismatics backing up from all their mess. Just waiting to see how what it all comes to. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 1985 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Well, maybe not the curtain falling, but it is a start on one... TULSA, Okla. — Richard Roberts told students at Oral Roberts University yesterday that he did not want to resign as president of the scandal-plagued evangelical school, but that he did so because God insisted. God told him on Thanksgiving that he should resign the next day, Mr. Roberts told students in the university's chapel. "Every ounce of my flesh said 'no'" to the idea, Mr. Roberts said, but he prayed over the decision with his wife and his father, Oral Roberts, and decided to step down. Mr. Roberts said he wanted to "strike out" against the people who were persecuting him, and considered countersuing, but "the Lord said, 'Don't do that,'" he said. After submitting his resignation, he said, for "first time in 60 days peace came into my heart." Mr. Roberts spoke for only a few minutes and was applauded and cheered by students. He wiped away tears with a white handkerchief and his hands. "This has nearly destroyed my family, and it's nearly destroyed ORU," Mr. Roberts said. A lawsuit accuses Mr. Roberts of lavish spending at a time when the university faced more than $50 million in debt, including taking shopping sprees, buying a stable of horses and paying for a daughter to travel to the Bahamas aboard the university jet. Mr. Roberts has previously said that God told him to deny the allegations. The week the lawsuit was filed, Richard Roberts said that God told him: "We live in a litigious society. Anyone can get mad and file a lawsuit against another person whether they have a legitimate case or not. This lawsuit ... is about intimidation, blackmail, and extortion." Yesterday, Mr. Roberts said God told him he would "do something supernatural for the university" if he stepped down from the job he held at the 5,700-student school since 1993. Mr. Roberts said he would return to the full-time evangelistic healing ministry, "which is where my heart has always been," and told students and faculty that he will be praying for them every day of his life. | ||
| anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 328 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.88.225.201 |
He's the one who caused the problems. He failed to say his own board wanted him out of there. These people can never admit the truth..it's always someone else's fault....and they always put on their super spiritual victim act to cover themselves. This time was the most ludicrous I personaly have seen. | ||
| anony Intermediate Member Username: anony Post Number: 329 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 68.88.225.201 |
Full time evangelistic healing ministry? Sitting before a tv camera and calling out ears and elbows healed. How easier much can you have it.... I bet that's where his heart has been. No sweat, no strain. Not to mention it much better fits his IQ level. | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 5 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
Quite the "mess" going on in "churchianiaty". Where did God say that judgement was to begin?.....Did not he say that it must first begin at the house of God? Let's see what THE BIBLE says......1Pe 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" I'm afraid brothers and sisters in the Lord that Almighty God is dealing now with the false shepherds who have plundered and scattered the sheep. It has arrived in America. ALL these 501c3 "churches" have sold out for the love of money. Their God is the dollar and their head is the IRS...Luk 16:13 "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon". We are now starting to see who they love. It is harvest time...the fruit is appearing...the wheat and the tares are evident. Amazing that the latest church shooting involves the "church" in Colorado where the sodomite leader, Ted Haggard overseen, and the shooters motherr admired Haggard and his brother attends ORU......does anybody see the connection? I don't believe it is coincidence. And a news flash for today...Creflo million Dollarman and Benny Hinn are breaking ties with ORU and they did not report their income info. to Senator Grassy....stay tuned folks this thing is going to get BIGGER! It will be a awhile yet before any rapture comes.....God has some temple cleaning and table overturning to do....he did it in the past and he is going to do it again. It is time to come out of these places folks....come out of the babylonian system. }Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 373 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.29 |
"Amazing that the latest church shooting involves the "church" in Colorado where the sodomite leader, Ted Haggard overseen, and the shooters motherr admired Haggard and his brother attends ORU......does anybody see the connection? I don't believe it is coincidence." What are you trying to say there, OT Wrath Boy? Read Gal 3:13, btw just for grins... | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
1Pe 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" good nite gracie | ||
| jbkrems Member Username: jbkrems Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.12.109.61 |
Discerner: Did you have a link for Creflo and Benny Hinn severing and breaking their ties with ORU - ??? I'd like an article for that, please. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1028 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
discerner, I find your logic disturbing. God is not behind some lunatic entering a church and shooting people any more than He is behind the shooting and killing of innocent people in malls, schools, or other public buildings. If God wants to judge someone in the church, He can do so without the help of some misguided fool and his guns. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2036 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
RE Hinn and Dollar and ORU: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/20107/oral-roberts-university-19 | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 380 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.29 |
discerner - you quoted "what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" We already what end the unsaved will meet, why add to the Word your speculation? Hi Marta - Help me understand typical Evangelical doctrine, as you know I have been WOF almost all of my life... I would have thought that you would've agreed that God is behind this? Isn't the typical stance, "God allowed it", or "God is using this tragedy for good"? Not trying to fight, only trying to understand. Thanks Marta, I look forward to reading your response. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1029 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
saygoodnightgracie, I remember when AIDS first came on the scene. A lot of people were saying that it was judgement by God towards homosexuals. What bothered me about that is that a lot of innocent people were dying from AIDS ... like kids, people who had gotten it through a blood transfusion, etc. I prayed about it and believe that God showed me that it was not judgement from God but just the consequences of a fallen world. Some might disagree but I just don't think God works like that. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 381 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.29 |
"I prayed about it and believe that God showed me that it was not judgement from God but just the consequences of a fallen world. Some might disagree but I just don't think God works like that." Amen Marta, I agree ONE HUNDRED PERCENT. Thanks, I always enjoy "hearing" what you have to say, even if we do disagree a lot. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 382 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.29 |
Not only a fallen world, but the John 10:10a factor has a lot to do with it as well... You mentioned AIDS, how about 9-11... Radicals STOLE planes, KILLED pilots and DESTROYED buildings.. the devil's plans manifest in the natural realm. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 821 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.196.227 |
You mentioned AIDS, how about 9-11... Radicals STOLE planes, KILLED pilots and DESTROYED buildings.. the devil's plans manifest in the natural realm. You've probably seen the images, but I have a very vivid picture of the smoldering towers where there is an amazingly clear giant image of "the devil" in the smoke. Call it coincidence if you want, and it may be, but it's a great picture. I copied it and added the scriptures as to how our war is not with flesh and blood etc... It's very cool. If I had taken the picture, I'd make a poster out of it and sell 'em I think. Perhaps therin lies my hundred fold return. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 384 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.29 |
I think it lies within your faith and and in the book of Mark... | ||
| nabashalam Senior Member Username: nabashalam Post Number: 1855 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 68.190.117.25 |
No we are not TV Evangelist!!!! If any one can help keep the board open.... http://www.factnet.org/ We might have to shut down!!!! | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 11 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
Marta..... Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends..... If Jesus was persecuted by his own, what is to say that we won't?.......who wounded him? saygoodnitegracie......OT Wrath Boy, you wrote, hehehe...that's hilarious.....how about adding NT Wrath Boy to this one?........ Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. ....did those scriptures include the words wrath and judgement? You can read the rest between the two posted scriptures in Romans. God is going to judge .......Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. ......who will be persecuted? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? .......who allows these things to happen to who and by who? Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. .....who is right or who is wrong? Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. .....who put it into their hearts to fulfill his will? and as for Gal 3:13 saygoodnitegracie....though Christ fulfilled the Law, God did not do away with coming judgement...he is still giving man a chance to repent...Im not under any Law if that is what you were thinking....Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. I get the feeling around here in FACTNET that some people don't believe that America is going to persecuted and judged and don't want to hear about judgement( and it's already happening)....why should just Christians in China, Indonesia, N. Korea, Iran, Iraq, and many others be persecuted, and the "Land of the Free" escape and be raptured? Might I suggest a couple of links why juudgement and persecution is quite a possibility...... http://www.informedchristians.com/downloads/PDF_Judge.pdf http://www.worldchallenge.org/pulpit_series/archive/ps02_0909.html http://www.biblicalworldviewministries.org/11082006-why-god-is-judging-/ Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1030 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
discerner, I never said God is not going to judge ... I said that I don't believe that the gunman was God's judgement on the church. If YOU believe that the gunman was God's judgement, how far away are you from becoming like that gunman? I pray for justice, I seek justice, but vengeance belongs to the Lord. Read Acts 5:1-11 ... if God wants to kill someone He can cause them to drop dead where they stand ... He doesn't have to enlist some madman who ends up killing innocent people. Luke 18:1-8 One day Jesus told his disciples a story to illustrate their need for constant prayer and to show them that they must never give up. "There was a judge in a certain city," he said, "who was a godless man with great contempt for everyone. A widow of that city came to him repeatedly, appealing for justice against someone who had harmed her. The judge ignored her for a while, but eventually she wore him out. 'I fear neither God nor man,' he said to himself, 'but this woman is driving me crazy. I'm going to see that she gets justice, because she is wearing me out with her constant requests!'" Then the Lord said, "Learn a lesson from this evil judge. Even he rendered a just decision in the end, so don't you think God will surely give justice to his chosen people who plead with him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will grant justice to them quickly! But when I, the Son of Man, return, how many will I find who have faith?" | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
Marta; Did you ever think that God allows things to happen to try to wake up people? The subject is not about guns, which American society is so obsessed with, but the underlying problem of sin and corruption in the so-called church world. Israel is given as an example to us to show that if we wander off the path, God is going to use some form or another to get the message across. that is God being merciful by warning the people that he is not to pleased. I wish hurt upon no man. In fact we are told to pray for enemies and bless them that curse us. I am not in here to proclaim judgement and hatred upon no man , woman, or child. I pray for our government to get back to God and the people of this nation and others to repent. The first sermon that Jesus gave was: Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Instead hearing repentance from the pulpit, all we hear is,, how to become a better you, sow a seed of faith, God is love, and a bunch of other ear tickling fuzzy speeches. I'm already armed, not as Matthew was..... I have put on the armour of God. "thou shalt not kill" Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. I guess you believe that 9/11 was a random act by lunatics and that there is no way that God was trying to wake up prople?.....why would God use planes? Jer 51:11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the LORD hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the LORD, the vengeance of his temple. Yes I agree that vengeance belongs to the Lord. But don't forget God always sent messangers to a godless people before judgement was coming....remember Jonah and Ninevah? David and Nathan? Saul and Samuel? And I don't believe for one moment that Matthew was a messenger or a prophet of God but a device used by satan. God's true messengers never killed anyone but many were put to death by the religious. Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 1Sa 23:27 But there came a messenger unto Saul, saying, Haste thee, and come; for the Philistines have invaded the land. The wisdom of God is never at a loss for ways, and means to preserve his people. Drive out those spiritual Philistines by repenting. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 794 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.14.57.188 |
Very creepy. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 388 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
"Did you ever think that God allows things to happen to try to wake up people?" Marta... THAT'S the evangelical doctrine I was talking about. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 389 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
You have to say it just the right way, lik "God ALLOWS it." Or like "Gaaaaawd is in CONTROL" | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 839 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Interesting spin discerner. I don't know if I agree with it all, but well presented. What do you think about this. Jesus used the example of the tower at Siloam I believe, and the human blood mixed with the sacrifices and asked the question. "DO you think they were any worse sinners? The answer was basically no, stuff happens, and all of us will eventually perish likewise should we not repent. I am of the school that God rarely is actively judging us, and certainly would start with the church when He does. It's a real tough call for me as to whether the U.S. is being or has been judged by God. These things are not so high and mighty we can't understand them I suppose, but really it is speculation for the most part with no scripture telling us it was judgement such as the O.T. examples we read about and are told why. Seems like God allows me to do what I want, and I reap what I sow, so the balls actually mostly in my court. IIIIIIII am in control! Just practicing my preacher speak. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2048 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Each one of us must take whatever comes our way and seek for how God would have us respond and what He would have us learn from us. But I cannot judge for any other man the purpose, if any, of some calamity or tragedy that befalls him. For me, the chief of sinners, how can I expect any thing other than for God to chastise me to wake me out of my slumber? But how can I judge my neighbor deserving of any of the calamities that might befall him? Our Lord tells us the proper attitude to have toward calamities in Luke 13 regarding some Jews martyred by Pilate, He asks "Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?" IOW, do you suppose this was God's judgment upon them? That they deserved this? That God was trying to "wake them up"? "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." IOW, no, you can't judge what befalls others, but for you, you must repent, you must live a life of repentance, constantly looking to yourself. As St. Paul writes, "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged." | ||
| ultimate1 Advanced Member Username: ultimate1 Post Number: 562 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
Q. Was all the wrath of God, all the penalty for past present and future sin poured out upon Jesus ( or just some of it)? A Scriptures and verses. Did Jesus pay the full penalty for all sinners? Romans 5:8-10 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Is God judging the world or nations or are they already judged? What if you repent for all the sin you can remember but miss or forget just a few, are you going to be punished, judged? God allows evil to happen. Is that evil? Does God allow what you allow? Do we have to take what comes our way of can we change our future? Did Jesus give us the privledge to exercise authority to use His name over evil? Are we responsible for our own problems? Did Jesus die in vain? Since the scripture statex Jesus came to destroy all the works of satan, does salvation attone for all punishment, take back the power mankind gave over to satan, and "destroy the works of the evil one"? Is there a sin of Ommission? If Jesus already took all penalty under the curse(Gal 3:13) what is Gods chastisement? Does God send evil on Christians as pawns to teach them things? Psalm 105:19 "Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him." Jesus states: "The thief (satan) comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows)." John 10:10 | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 394 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
CyberM: "Plus it seems a little less hostile at the moment." It most certainly is, a couple of the pot stirrers were banned so it is significantly more pleasant to post here than in the past. | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 797 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.14.57.188 |
Good. Maybe some intelligent, rational discussion/debate will take place. Hey, we're still here - how'd that happen?? | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 396 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
I was exonerated... can't speak for you however  | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 17 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
Let me ask all of you this. Many leaders in the pulpit are looked upon with great reverence and adored. Ted Haggard was one of these men. As we all known he committed a homosexual act, and his use of illegal drugs, which are forbidden in SCRIPTURE, all agree? This Ted Haggard was also the founder and former pastor of New Life Church in Colorado, were there was a shooting, correct? Also this man was the founder of the Association of Life-Giving Churches; and was leader of the National Association of Evangelicals from 2003 until November 2006. Now that Ted WAS the leader of NAE,there are 60 denominations with about 45,000 churches in the organization, which he had unfluence in being the leader. Probably alot? The NAE posted a statement accepting his resignation with regret and are encouraging him to participate in the discipline process and oversight of his church. Could someone explain the "discipline process"....I seemed confused here, but I don't hear repentance. After the scandal was publicized, Haggard entered three weeks of intensive counseling, overseen by four ministers. On February 6, 2007 one of those ministers, Tim Ralph, stated that Haggard "is completely heterosexual." Ralph later said he meant to say that therapy "gave Ted the tools to help to embrace his heterosexual side." .....Can someone please find the word "therapy" for me in the bible, because it is not in mine. From The Denver Post: In a letter of apology read to the congregation of New Life Church Sunday morning, Ted Haggard confessed to sexual immorality and described himself as "a deceiver and a liar"... ..."The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from ministry," Haggard wrote... From The Denver Post: CNN's Wolf Blitzer reported Sunday on Late Edition that the Rev. Ted Haggard, currently embroiled in a gay prostitution scandal, has admitted that he did have sex with an escort. Previously, Haggard had admitted to contacting the escort, but denied that any sex took place. Haggard reportedly said that he is "a deceiver and a liar, and admits "I am guilty of sexual immorality." DId you just read what I read? Haggard said he is "a deciever and a liar". What an amazing statement! It sure took guts for him to say that....but only because he was caught. If he is a liar, which he is, by his claim...then who is his father?...... Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Wow! Can you imagine having this man leader over millions upoon millions of christians in america and all this time they thought his father was God Almighty, but instead,according to the HOLY SCRIPTURES, his father is SATAN! Every Sunday this man would be in the pulpit shepherding thousands and the people did not know it! So you tell me where the spiritual discernment is in all these people that were under his leadership. contd.... | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
Act 16:16 And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: Act 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which show unto us the way of salvation. Act 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. Since the majority of today's christians have no spiritual discernmet at all, they would have been completely fooled by that woman. Even those who pride themselves on their knowledge of the scriptures would have been fooled. Didn't she preach Jesus? How much deception has been brought into all the NAE and millions of people due to a liar in leadership? Then you guys question "why did this happen" and why I am being judgemental....? Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Are you starting to get a picture of the apostate church yet or will you recieve of her plagues? Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. As for me, I want no part of this harlot system. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 863 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Discerner: Any comment on our posts or is it merely a soapbox? We're talking to you. | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 19 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
XMAN: Glad to find someone with some discernment. You posted: "What do you think about this. Jesus used the example of the tower at Siloam I believe, and the human blood mixed with the sacrifices and asked the question. "DO you think they were any worse sinners? The answer was basically no, stuff happens, and all of us will eventually perish likewise should we not repent." I am glad that you noticed that men NEED TO REPENT. I have been asking where is the call to repentance? I haven't been hearing it from the "church" or government. That is exactly my point. All sin is punishable and those that continue in it will be punished, but how many other lives are affected because of one man's sin?. Remember Achan? Jos 22:20 Did not Achan the son of Zerah commit a trespass in the accursed thing, and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel? and that man perished not alone in his iniquity. ....see that, he did not perish alone because of his iniquity. His family and belongings. What is to say that God has changed his attitude toward sin. Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God And God will continue to show that sin will not be tolerated(tolerance is politically correct).Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. ....Notice I posted NT verses to show his attitude toward sin. The thread is "Curtain about to Fall on Pyramid Preachers?"....definately.....hold on to your seats, it's going to be a bumpy ride, especially for all those that have had a relationship with these decievers. Follow a false prophet, you will recieve a false prophets reward.....Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. We are responsible for ourselves whom we follow and what teachings we adhere to. More exposure/judgement in the house of God to come? You bet! Here is another. "Pastor takes leave of absence over his online porn addiction" http://www.sptimes.com/2007/12/15/Hillsborough/Pastor_takes_leave_of.shtml | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 405 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
Hey that was in our newspaper!! I read that article. Have you ever seen the stats of pastors/ministers who are addicted to porn? It is UNBELEIVABLE... | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 406 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
Here is the most interesting quote in the entire article... "Brosch said he had heard no church member express outrage." And the Church in America has gotten Rickwarrenized soft on sin? | ||
| discerner New member Username: discerner Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 99.236.178.156 |
Giggle..... read the forum rules for the first time..... The one that got my attention is.... 3. When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults, and personal attacks will not be tolerated. It's fine to disagree strongly with opinions, ideas, and facts, but always with respect for the other person. Great minds do not always think alike!" I was hoping that everyone agreed with me, but aren't we all like that, hehehe. I just get fired up (I guess you can call it righteous indignation)when I see church world make a mockery and cause reproach upon the Lord. Otherwise this site has given me very useful info, as there are others that have experienced the same "emotions and experiences" in the same organization that I was involed with. I realized others have seen the same things. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Intermediate Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 409 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 72.64.222.101 |
Meant to say.. And the Church in America has NOT gotten Rickwarrenized and soft on sin? | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 874 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Thanks discerner. There are a lot of people who are calling for repentance here in the U.S. though. For every pyramid preacher out there, I believe there are multiple hard working pastors and teachers out there who are humbly serving in their congregations and calling for repentance and humility. Funny thing is, a lot of the biggest loud mouths that sometimes call for a national repentance are the very ones who need to do some repenting thmselves, and that clouds the thing even more. In my years as a Christian, I've heard numerous times when various people have said such and such was a judgement from God and that unless we repent we will be detroyed etc... Invariably they fade away and life goes on. Does that mean God won't ever judge us. No, I don't think so, but I believe it will most likely be in respect for His greater plan for this whole creation. I say that because I truly believe the U.S. was rased up to be a beacon of light and a nation from which the gospel could be freely spread throughout the world. as we fall further and further from our roots, we probably slip closer and closer to judgement, but I would'nt say its now. There are a lot of intercessors and people praying for this nation, and that is not without effect. Just my opinion though, because I really don't know, but I like your enthusiasm an its an intersting take on an interesting topic. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2058 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Yes, men need to repent, but most of all, I need to repent. The Lord didn't use the tragedy of the Tower of Siloam as an illustration to tell His disciples to go preach to others to repent, He used it to squash the tendency we all have to judge others as deserving the tragedies that befall them as "judgments from God" while seeing those that befall ourselves as "attacks from Satan". What hypocrisy. It is not my business to tell another that something that happened to him was "God's judgment". I can only look at what happens to me and judge myself rightly so that the Dread Judgment I will not be judged. | ||
| xman3 Advanced Member Username: xman3 Post Number: 879 Registered: 12-2006 Posted From: 75.7.204.167 |
Wow. Xman and mcmstaff in full agreement. What is this world coming to. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1031 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
The Lord didn't use the tragedy of the Tower of Siloam as an illustration to tell His disciples to go preach to others to repent, He used it to squash the tendency we all have to judge others as deserving the tragedies that befall them as "judgments from God" while seeing those that befall ourselves as "attacks from Satan". Amen. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Senior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 2063 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Xman, as our Lord said to the scribe, "Thou art not far from the kingdom of God."  | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1033 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
Abandoned Salvation Army kettle stolen http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/681234,CST-NWS-kettle05.article Cash kettle stolen http://www.suntimes.com/news/701637,121807stolenkettle.article So, what do you think? (A)Satan's Attack on The Salvation Army (B)God's Judgement on the Salvation Army (C)Consequences of a Fallen World (D)All The Above (E)None of the Above | ||
| cybermom Advanced Member Username: cybermom Post Number: 798 Registered: 12-2004 Posted From: 24.14.57.188 |
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| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 351 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.170.201 |
Merry Christmas to everyone here on FactNet! I was reading this morning in 1 Timothy in The Message translation and this passage spoke to me…and maybe it will speak to you, too! (Emphasis mine!) 1 Timothy 1:4-8 (The Message) Self-Appointed Experts on Life Stay right there on top of things so that the teaching stays on track. Apparently some people have been introducing fantasy stories and fanciful family trees that digress into silliness instead of pulling the people back into the center, deepening faith and obedience. The whole point of what we're urging is simply LOVE--LOVE uncontaminated by self-interest and counterfeit faith, a life open to God. Those who fail to keep to this point soon wander off into cul-de-sacs of gossip. They set themselves up as experts on religious issues, but haven't the remotest idea of what they're holding forth with such imposing eloquence. It's true that moral guidance and counsel need to be given, but THE WAY YOU SAY IT and to whom you say it are as important as what you say…. Hopefully, I’ll be careful to watch “the way” I post/say in addition to what I say! Peace and hope to you all, Bachman | ||
| bachman Intermediate Member Username: bachman Post Number: 359 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 141.155.162.201 |
Here are the responses as of Dec 6, 2007 as posted on Grassley's website: --- Here is an accounting of the ministries’ responses as of 5:30 p.m. Eastern time: 1. Kenneth and Gloria Copeland – Kenneth Copeland Ministries: Attorneys delivered a package of written material to Sen. Grassley’s staff today 2. Creflo Dollar – World Changers Church International: Sent Sen. Grassley and Chairman Baucus a letter indicating that the ministry does not intend to provide information voluntarily and raised the idea of a subpoena. 3. Benny Hinn – World Healing Center Church, Inc.: Sen. Grassley’s staff are scheduled to meet with the ministry’s lawyers on Friday, Dec. 7. 4. Bishop Eddie Long – New Birth Missionary Baptist Church: Ministry representatives said publicly that the ministry will cooperate. Sen. Grassley has not received any material or contact from the ministry. 5. Joyce Meyer – Joyce Meyer Ministries Sen. Grassley’s staff received a package of written material from the organization on Tuesday, Dec. 4, and is reviewing the material. 6. Randy and Paula White – Without Walls International Church: Today, received initial contact from attorneys. No indication of further response. | ||
| g7qabx88 New member Username: g7qabx88 Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 72.95.246.25 |
I hope you're right but I think it is a superficial investigation that will go nowhere. Too much money and power. If you take a bushel basket of apples and put a rotten apple inside they will all rot much faster. As christ said in Mark 7:20" it is not what goes into you that defiles you but what comes out of you that defiles you. For from within your hearts come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultry, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from within and defile you." Just as the apple that is rotten on the inside spreads to others so does the rot of Rick Hufton's type of ministry. And to make matters worst politicians are elbow deep in this man's pocket. Recently my mother had a mini stroke and all that has done is •••• me off more. I'm not in the mood for any more of their games. We need to elect someone from the left. No one who preaches the book. These people will take us down a path of misery. By the way, the senate has launched an investigation into these groups but really needs to look at Hufton and the Von Fanges. I'll bet they won't. I will say this....I will have no connections, directly or indirectly to Rick Hufton, the Von Fanges, or any religious school that may leech off them. By the way Dec 27, 07 plate number 2755363 IL. People are entitled to choose whatever route they wish to worship if at all. That's what's good about this country. But saying that there must be some balances. With the lessening of family values and increases in crime rates, thefts, etc comes people who feel we need to go a more radical route..hence religious extremism. The pendulum swings back and forth to the max point before returning. Let's not let this go too far. This time it may not return. The only thing I've wanted is to be free of Hufton and his cronies. IL 9457543 30 dec 07...when your people and the contacts you made here in PA are out of my life then I will shut up. Not until then. | ||
| watchman_2 Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 60 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
1. Who is investigating Senate expenditures?? 2. Why don't they just repeal the 16th Amendment and abolish income tax?? 3. What right does Sen. Grassley have for asking for such documentation without agreeing to pay for the time-and-material expenditures in responding to the Senate? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Junior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 34 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 167.193.134.61 |
Answers: 1. Irrelevant 2. Irrelevant 3. The tax code requires 501(c)(3) organizations maintain certain documentation regarding gifts and expenditures. What was requested shouldn't require much effort to pull together. Certainly not nearly so much as just one of their trips in their jet or the cost of one custom commode. | ||
| watchman_2 Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 61 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
mcmstaff, If I recall the nature of the document request of Sen. Grassley correctly, he was asking for information far beyond that set forth in the tax code regarding gifts and expenditures. In addition, if the request is anything outside of that which these organizations are required to file each year, the gov't is required to pay for it. Last, why is it the Senate's purview to effectively audit these organizations. Should not that responsiblity fall upon the IRS? | ||
| gate007 New member Username: gate007 Post Number: 9 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 68.104.234.198 |
The Senate can pretty well investigate anything they want. They investigated steroid use in basebal yet the league has a commissioner. The senate investigates all kind of matters that the Attorney General could handle. They're like the supreme court. They pick and choose matters they want to look into. | ||
| watchman_2 Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
gate007, I certainly agree with you. However, I don't see any constitutional right for the Senate to do so. BTW, I am not a supporter of any of the ministries in question. My issue is the Senate poking their collective nose where it does not belong. The Senate's duty is to legislate. If there is insufficient documentation required of these tax-exempt church organizations, then the duty of the Senate is to pass legislation which amends the tax code accordingly. Their duty does not lie in investigating such groups that has sufficiently provided the documentation required of them to the IRS, which, in turn, has not targeted them for audit. If you looked at the document request to these preachers, it was very far-reaching. I hope that most of them simply respond by supplying the same information that they were legally obligated to send to the IRS in their annual filings. With respect to the rest, they should respond that they are more then willing to assist the Senate in their investigation and then request the necessary funds from the gov't to pay for the expenditures therewith. (Message edited by watchman_2 on January 10, 2008) | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 45 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
"So, what do you think? (A)Satan's Attack on The Salvation Army (B)God's Judgement on the Salvation Army (C)Consequences of a Fallen World (D)All The Above (E)None of the Above" Actually, the answer is (F)... I took it. Wanted a latte bad, kettle was positioned 15 yards from the Starbucks counter. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1049 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
News reports said that a woman between 65 and 70 years old took it.... nice disguise! | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
I CONFESSED it, then I POSSESSED it!!! | ||
| gate007 New member Username: gate007 Post Number: 12 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 68.104.234.198 |
Watchman: The Constitution does not address a lot of issues in our country. Our entire guidance does not come from just this document. The US Senate has numerous committees that address and investigate all kinds of subjects from banking to drug use to wallstreet and so forth. The WOF ministers brought this on their self. They flaunt their lifestyles. I personally heard Fred Price brag that he has 7 Rolls Royces. Why? What's the point? However, many minister are given gifts. ken Copeland received 2 Mercedes from a man who wanted to give it to him and Gloria. I say fine! It's none of my business. If Creflo Dollar needs a apartment in Manhattan cuz he rents out Madison Square Garden every Saturday...fine. He needs it. He needs a plane too. I don't want ministers sitting next to drunken idiots in first class and having the airlines cancel flights and missing connecting flights on them. If you really need a plane cuz God has you ministering that much out of state then buy one. God is not broke! So.......let Grassley investigate and either clear these folks or kick em in the butt. | ||
| watchman_2 Member Username: watchman_2 Post Number: 77 Registered: 1-2006 Posted From: 66.92.33.240 |
gate007, I would disagree to a certain extent regarding the U.S. Constitution. The 10th Amendment basically covers everything. The People have all the power, except for those powers granted to the federal or state governments. Hence, if it is not in the U.S. Constitution, it is not the federal government's business. The 10th Amendment is one means in which we, the people, control our governments. >>>>> Regarding tax-exempt ministries, I am not all that familiar with specific rules on expenditures/reserve funds. Personally, I don't know why anyone sends any of the 6 in question a single penny. But, people are entitled to support their ministries any way they see fit. In my opinion, it is the business of those supporting the ministry as to the appropriateness of the expenditures -- not the Senate's business. Again, the extent of the Senate's involvement should be legislative in regulating the records/documents which these ministries should file each year with the IRS -- all ministries, not just a few. | ||
| marta Senior Member Username: marta Post Number: 1050 Registered: 9-2005 Posted From: 67.176.211.60 |
I don't want ministers sitting next to drunken idiots in first class ... I think that's why saygoodnightgracie always flies coach. I personally don't care how ministries spend their money. The problem I have with some is how they acquire the money in the first place. If you have to be dishonest to get people to give ... you're better off broke. | ||
| bachman New member Username: bachman Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 141.155.29.245 |
Gate007, well put. I never really thought about it before but I agree that it's the "flaunting" at times that bothers me. I attended Creflo's NYC church for about 6 months, but meeting at Madison Sq. Garden makes it IMPOSSIBLE to meet people/have fellowship, and no small groups are established yet. What bothered me one night was when he was on the platform and said, "I'm rich, Rich, RICH!" and sort of squealed with delight and the crowd roared with approval. And he was talking money because at the time he was planning on buying a basketball team. Also, the people were confessing $80 million each week for their own building in NYC but even though I volunteered on the media team, no one seemed to know WHY the number $80 million was chosen--to rent? Buy? Build? Anyway, I think Cref and the others DO teach the word of God, I have some personal interaction with some of them and they are believers, but I think they ALL need someone to say, "NO. Instead of 7 Rolls Royces, you can have one, donate the money for the other 6 to missions, and buy a Toyota." | ||
| arron Senior Member Username: arron Post Number: 4010 Registered: 11-2004 Posted From: 71.85.121.123 |
i do think that some have forgotten their gospel roots and are now preaching a properity gospel. there is no need for some of the things they have two cars is enough a palne im not so sure about unless they had to travel a whole lot and could not go by car or by a big bus that they could own. all that extra money could go to the gospel | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1061 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
gate007, I don't want ministers sitting next to drunken idiots in first class Why? Will they cry? Will they catch something? Should these ministers never go out to eat either? I am sure that they are more apt to be around drunken fools in a resturant than on a plane. Maybe they should own their own resturant or coffee shop. Wait... they would most likely name it "Holy Hamburgers" or "Jehovah Java". I think that they should take their chances eating out. | ||
| gate007 New member Username: gate007 Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 68.104.234.198 |
Bear: There are those in ministry who need to stay in there anointing. Those with high repsonsiblity have a heavy schedule. They do not need to bother with sitting next to your drunk Uncle or eating with your flaky aunt. I have flown over 1.2 million miles and do not appreciate all the morons I meet on the plane. I have no problem with them obtaining a plane. However, by the tone of your reply I think I am wasting time with a lame brain! Don't waste my time with a reply. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1063 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Insults are a sign of a weak mind! I was in ministry for years. I have done my share of air travel, and my "anointing" is not harmed because I am sitting next to a drunk. }Did Jesus lose his anointing while eating in the house of a sinner, where wine was being drunk?\black}} You do not know me, for I was having fun, that is all. Somtimes these threads can be tense; I was attempting to keep it loose. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1064 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Part 2... 1. BTW, The "Staying in the anointing" concept is a Pentecostal (of which I am a former minister) invention, not a biblical concept. In fact, you can not find any verse, within the original context of a scripture, which supports such a concept. 2. Did you ever wonder how Jesus would rate in today's Pentecostal culture? He drank wine with his meals, though never a drunk. He drank wine at a meal with sinners(it is in the book). I am sorry, but the "Jesus only drank juice" belief does not stand up to the scrutiny of a textual and historical critique. (Message edited by bear on January 11, 2008) | ||
| gate007 New member Username: gate007 Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 68.104.234.198 |
Bear: I apologize. I did not take your humor perspective. Please accept my apology. I was not looking for a fight. Now I know your stance we can communicate better. I agree with what you say, ok? It's just that the airlines has become such a hassle these days. They miss connecting flights, cancel flights, overbook ..etc. They are not reliable. Now if...and I mean if..you are a minister who travels a lot because God has called you to this level then I am ok with you having a jet plane. I don't want you missing flights or having to deal with distractive people. I fly weekly and it's only getting worse. By the way...the wine Jesus drank was actual wine not some other voodoo hoopla concoction some have tried to prove. There are 3 kinds of wine in the Bible. One, is strong drink. This is non-diluted wine. Second, is celebration wine diluted 20:1. Third is table wine, diluted 30:1. Again, I appreciate your gentle reply. Actually, I like your thinking! I think you and I are along the same lines. | ||
| matt_hatter Junior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Wow, I am sure glad Jesus didn't "lose the anointing" hanging around all those nasty sinners. Another wretched concept created by charismatics to magnify the status of their pampered preachers. You might want to read Paul's adventures in the book of Acts again. He had a few 'interruptions' and somehow managed to keep his focus on God. Gate, your description just further strengthens the idea that these preachers jet from one meeting to another, preaching to already 'saved' people, and rarely think that the "obnoxious drunk" may be a someone who needs Christ. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Junior Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
I fly weekly, basically - sometimes I drive, and it's not getting worse, it's as bad as it gets. I don't mind the drunkenness,etc. - I mind the self-centered callousness of people... But I love them, read the Word on the plane and sometimes get a chance to witness to the person next to me. Flying SUCKS. Period. Terrorists ruined our ability to travel freely about the country, as SWA says in their ads. I can remember when I was younger, living in Chicago... we had relatives in Detroit and one way tix were $39. I could show up at Midway Airport 20 minutes before the flight took off, run through and make my flight. Those days are perhaps gone forever. I would love to own a small, private plane for regional travel... many planes are not that big of a deal. My dad owned one (with three buddies) BEFORE he owned a car at the age of 17. A couple of guys in my secular business own small planes. And Matt, I don't get into big scripture debates but the anointing appears to have waned when Jesus was around sinners who doubted and believed. You know the scripture I'm talking about. It doesn't "would not", it says "could not"... Now get over to that "Pants Primer" thread, I think our particular "skills" are needed there. PS Chapters 27 and 28 from the book of Acts are two of my absolute favorite texts to teach from, "shook it off into the fire"... beautiful approach to adversity. Also, Acts 5:15, my favorite verse in the Bible... think Peter knew anything about the anointing? | ||
| mcmstaff78 Junior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 40 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
The Incarnate God's "annointing" waned? You've been imbibing too much WoF koolaid if you really believe such a thing. There are a couple of versions of that event in the Gospels and it is clear when one reads them all, that "would not" should be understood. How can man limit God? It is no wonder our Lord asked "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" | ||
| matt_hatter Junior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
I don't think my argument is about believers tapping into God's power, call it what you will...the examples you gave just strengthen what I am saying...these men operated in the power of the Holy Spirit under the most difficult of circumstances. These pampered preachers, not so much. Big deal, late flights...drunks...nothing like a viper and shaking it off in the fire. I agree totally, a beautiful approach to adversity, too bad I fail in my attempt to follow that example, but it is a good one to shoot for. HOWEVER! A preacher going to a friendly crowd of like minded people (who would eat dried cow chips at his urging if he promised a hundred fold return) has NO need to 'stay under the annointing" I mean really, these big conventions are more like a show---how many ways can you skin a cat? It has all been said before! Pass the offering plate, promise them the prosperity they so richly deserve...and presto! Another successful conference! Gracie, I have told you before, you are a smart guy (I am not being patronizing) surely you see it doesn't take much 'anointing' to pull something like this off...compared to the examples you gave from Acts (Wouldn't a well made movie about the travels of Paul be awesome?) If Frederick Price telling his congregation that he "drives a Rolls because Jesus was extremely wealthy and he is just following His steps" is the anointing, I will dust off my old Kenyon books and meet you down here in Dixie for a bible study next time you come through town. (BTW, our favorite vacation was a trip to Chicago to see the Braves and the Cubs, but that is another story). Though we may disagree, I do see you as a brother in Christ. I hope you feel the same. (The Pants primer left me dumbfounded. TATM has competition for the Factnet Lack of Lucidity Award)  | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 51 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
Hatter I had hoped that after the Passion film someone would do just that, make a great film about Paul. MCM, here's the problem with "debating" scripture on Factnet. Someone like me posts a Scripture. Someone like you, reads it and it doesn't jibe with your background and experiences, so the immediate reaction is, "you took it out of context", "you're twisting the scripture", etc. Watch what I mean... you asked a question and added a rude comment about my faith, btw (another reason why I don't debate scripture - makes people nasty) Here's a specific question. Q: "How can man limit God?" A: Psalm 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and LIMITED the Holy One of Israel. Here's what NEVER happens here, no one ever just simply reads the Scripture and says, "huh, never saw that before". You know MCM, just because our doctrines are not in alignment and I don't like to debate scripture doesn't mean I don't know scripture. Have a great day, believe what you like - I am and I am enjoying my walk with God! | ||
| matt_hatter Junior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
Here's what NEVER happens here, no one ever just simply reads the Scripture and says, "huh, never saw that before". Yea, this is a good point Gracie. I wonder sometimes with all the parsing of Greek, what manuscripts are better than others, what verses were included or left out...I wonder for those people who may have Down's Syndrome who unashamedly say "I love Jesus!" if that is enough for folks in here...just a thought. | ||
| matt_hatter Junior Member Username: matt_hatter Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.214.93.12 |
I will say that Xman seems to ponder the posts and likes to take some time to think on these things. | ||
| mcmstaff78 Junior Member Username: mcmstaff78 Post Number: 44 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 24.99.130.74 |
Well, the KJV translation of Ps. 78.41 is just a bad translation. The NASB reads "Again and again they tempted God, And pained the Holy One of Israel." Young's Literal has it "Yea, they turned back, and tempted God, and provoked the Holy One of Israel." The New English Translation of the Septuagint renders it "They turned about and tested God, and provoked the Holy One of Israel." I am a big fan of the KJV in terms of the Greek manuscript used for the NT, but it is certainly not perfect, especially in the OT. In this case, it is a bad translation and horrible theology. The created cannot "limit" the Uncreated. | ||
| saygoodnightgracie Member Username: saygoodnightgracie Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2005 Posted From: 96.228.213.249 |
"I love Jesus!" That's all that matters, Hatter (I ryhmed!).. That's why I don't debate, what we agree on is more important. | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1070 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
Gate007, I appreciate your comments. I did not take an offence. I understand the feelings behind what you said, for I have felt that many were lame in their responses. I have to remember that people do not know me here, and that my humor can not be detected in written form. For the record, I do not have an issue with a minister having a plane, especially when their schedule is tight. It can be frustrating to be delayed and having to deal with crazies on a plane, especially when they have ministry to do once they arrive at their destination. To me it is about keeping their state of mind fresh, so that they are not frustrated and unfocused, which in my opinion is the real issue. I remeber traveling to Asia on a 747 for 18 hours. I was back in steerage, and got very little sleep. Our schedule was very busy, and it took me 2 days to get on track. I know many ministers who have a plane, and you never hear about them in the media. The reason, I presume, is that they do not flaunt it, and their financial practices are on the up and up. | ||
| gate007 New member Username: gate007 Post Number: 21 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 68.104.234.198 |
Bear: There is a minister is Midland, Michigan (Dr. Mark Barclay)who is called to pastor to other Pastor's. He has something like 400 or 500 pastor's under him he counsels and befriends under his ministry covering. He picks up like 2 new pastor's a week. Anyways...many of his trips are right out of the little ol Midland airport to these pastor's hometown. He has a small jet...maybe an 8 passenger or so, he bought for like $800,000. It's used. He uses it for ministry 3 to 4 times a week and not for personal pleasure. The security hassles thru the Detroit airport, the 2 & 1/2 hour drive there and so forth just makes it a headache. He is an incredible assets to these minister's and I support what he does 100%. However, Copeland's pilot log suggests Kenny does a lot more whoopin it up in the islands than whippin out his ax for Jesus. So I do not endorse all these minister's who have a plane, theologically or personally. The WOF parasites continue to fly around on their prosperity jets and milk the body of Christ like an old hind tit. However, I will have to let those who attend their meetings and pay their bills determine if these men are of God or themselves. | ||
| coolinfinity New member Username: coolinfinity Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2007 Posted From: 71.194.182.119 |
bear & gate007, While having a plane might be a nice it is not an asset but a detriment when it becomes an expensive luxury with bad money managers status seekers like Creflo Dollar, Copelands, Paula White, Mike Murdock etc. that cost from offering money that is meant for souls - four thousand dollars $4,000.00 an hour in jet fuel to fly plus crew, fees, storage, insurance, maintenance and one million dollars per engine overhaul yearly. This plus the Twenty Million dollars it cost to purchase like Copeland and Creflo. Copeland also owns and has six other jets all sitting in the hangars on his own expensive personal airport. This is so ridiculous bad use of offering money when first class airfare doesn't even cost 1% of the cost of owning these flying money eaters. Every Christian should have a problem with this since their offering money and the millions of dollars of offering money is wasted that could and should have gone to winning souls and helping hurting people. This is added to their $30,000 wristwatches, $150,000 cars(Rolls Royces etc., $12 million dollar mansions, $5,000 suits, $1,000 shoes, private jet trips to ski and island resorts, $25,000 hotel bills and the list goes on as they divert Gods offering money and spend it on status things giving it right back to Satans crowd and the status companies. It gets even worse when their bad examples encourages others to try and justify their waste of offering money and use them as their example. Their is no excuse to give these guys any money that show few results but wasteful luxury lust spending, and NEVER GIVE ANYONE A FINANCIAL REPORT and deceivingly call themselves ministers of integrity? They preach to the choir to sap their bank accounts to keep feeding their beyond luxury wasteful oppulence lifestyles. This is bad stewardship bad money management of the people who send them their money with no accountability even after they see this waste. How many souls go into a Godless eternity because they could not be reached due to lack of money and resources that were divcerted by these guys. | ||
| gate007 New member Username: gate007 Post Number: 22 Registered: 1-2008 Posted From: 68.104.234.198 |
Hey Cool: You're preachin to the choir pal. Of all the offenders, Murdock is right at the top along with Fred Price, and Paula "••••" White. I am still uncertain to Creflo. Leroy Thompson is terrible. Mr. "Miracle Money Man" from Darrow Louisiana. "Money Cometh" claims the false prophet who thinks he walks in Kenneth Hagion's anointing. Robb Thompson is an abomination. A real sicko. Now some of these items you mention are gifts given to these ministers but you and I pretty well see the same thing. Peace! | ||
| bear Senior Member Username: bear Post Number: 1072 Registered: 4-2005 Posted From: 66.227.244.201 |
cool, I agree! Gate, The description of Mark Barclay is the way it shoul be done. |
