| Author | Message | ||
     poormanspudding New member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 64.40.180.98 |
Many people posting here want answers as to why the GCC staff did nothing to stop what was going on. To me, this is a reasonable question if we forget that GCC/CofJ were cults but that piece we can't forget. Some victims of abuse find it terribly difficult to leave their abusers because they are brainwashed into believing that they deserve the ill treatment they are getting. When the authorities want to press charges against the abuser -- the victim sometimes rushes to the abuser's defence, not because they liked being treated badly but because they were psychologically abused into believing that a. their abuser loved them, b. they deserved to be abused c. that they couldn't make it on their own without the abuser looking after them. This pattern is an all too familiar scenario in domestic abuse stories. It also parallels what happened at GCC. I would like there to be some discussion around this because I think the cult aspect is at the heart of what is going on now and answers why some people are responding the way they are on this site. | ||
| poormanspudding New member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 64.40.180.98 |
I am reposting this from a different thread. Wagener84 said: "My only regret with the whole Grenville legacy is why nobody in the staff found the courage years ago to stand up to Farnsworth that he was way over the top and that enough was enough." I would like Bluesman to comment on this as I would like his opinion. My take is that when Valpy says "cultish practices" -- he hit the nail on the head. The C of J and GCC are/were cults. People were brainwashed into believing what they were doing was right. They may not have liked it but they believed whole heartedly that what they were doing was God's will because this was the doctrine they were fed. And that doctrine was backed up by threats of going to hell if one didn't comply with the teaching. The GCC staff were victims of brainwashing. The staff were separated from their birth families if they were not community members. They were not encouraged to associate with anyone outside of the GCC community -- although this did shift in the later years. The GCC staff were broken down in the same way (if not worse) than the students were -- remember the all day staff meetings where the students had to cook the meals, answer the phones and generally run the place? That was because the staff were in their own light sessions. I remember lying on my bed in the girl's dorm and hearing two staff women coming up the stairs crying and talking about what happened in the meeting. It scared the **** out of me and I felt so sorry for them. I saw more staff walking around with red eyes than I care to remember. If you were caught in this web at a tender age, it is all the more difficult to re-program your thinking today. As a result some former staff may be having difficulty accepting what is happening now. It takes a long time to undo thought patterns that took years to cement in their minds. | ||
| poormanspudding New member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 64.40.180.98 |
87expellee said: "the difference is the staff were ADULTS and CHOSE to be there, regardless of whether they were brainwashed or not". I agree -- initially they made the decision to move there but that is where it ends. That was their last act of free will. The indoctrination wove a web that kept getting tighter and tighter (by this I mean the breaking down of people's psychological and emotional selves)until there was nothing left of the essence of who they were as people. This is classic abuse. Just like the woman who thought she married her prince charming only to find herself, 10 years later, a shell of a person, beaten and bruised. Try to tell her her husband is an abuser. Try to get her to move out. She can't because she was fed lies that she deserved it, that she couldn't live without his protection, that she couldn't make it on her own. This is the scenario that played out at GCC. I've read it in post after post. The only difference I see between the staff experience vs. the student experience is that no staff (that I know of) was paddled or strapped but all were psychologically and emotionally abused.} | ||
| late_lights New member Username: late_lights Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 192.197.178.2 |
I don't have time right now to really discuss this, but based on what I've read right now, I think an important distinction to be made (and since my personal experience with the COJ is minimal at best, I'm only speaking of GCC here) is whether GCC was in fact an actual cult, or a strict boarding school that engaged in "cult like" or "cultish" behaviours (however I'm not really clear as to what constitutes cult like behaviour). | ||
| hoperules Member Username: hoperules Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2007 Posted From: 99.232.69.171 |
As posted in a previous thread by lightsout: This was posted over a year ago - but i was just reading it again tonight - and think it could prove beneficial to the new people reading and posting to this site...especially those who question whether either the CofJ or GCC were/are cults. According to Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D., these are the signs of a cult. As far as I know, neither of these two are even aware of the Community. Which of these would current members recognize as practices of the Community? 1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. 2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. 3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). 4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). 5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). 6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. 7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). 8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). 9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. 10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. 11. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. 12. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. 13. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. --------- having lived in both communities - I believe that I can come up with examples from both places for each of these 13 items. | ||
| lightsout Junior Member Username: lightsout Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 76.100.142.73 |
This was posted over a year ago - but i was just reading it again tonight - and think it could prove beneficial to the new people reading and posting to this site...especially those who question whether either the CofJ or GCC were/are cults. According to Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D., these are the signs of a cult. As far as I know, neither of these two are even aware of the Community. Which of these would current members recognize as practices of the Community? 1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. 2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. 3. Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). 4. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). 5. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). 6. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. 7. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). 8. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). 9. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. 10. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. 11. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. 12. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. 13. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. -------- this will be the 3rd to my knowledge that this has been posted. | ||
| lightsout Junior Member Username: lightsout Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 76.100.142.73 |
Great minds  | ||
| poormanspudding New member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 99.232.177.62 |
Strength said: "I have been trying to understand how so many good people got caught up in a power dynamic which led to such pain." Strength also said: "Lets put our energies into figuring out: a) Why it was ALLOWED to fester. b) Why it happened in the first place." So, I am proposing a possible answer to the questions Strength, Wagener84, 87Expellee have asked above. I would love some discussion around the idea of brainwashing. Everyone seems preoccupied with duking it out with Sinderella on the other thread. If no one wants to discuss this, it seems to me people are more interested punishing than understanding why things may have happened the way they did. Is that why no one is willing to discuss this? | ||
| purgatory Member Username: purgatory Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 65.95.148.70 |
I just got home from work awhile ago, but was thinking about this throughout the day.It seems to me that there were no "checks, and balances" put in place from the "outside" to monitor the going ons at the school. I wonder if all private schools are run in the same fashion, or if they have an independant group periodically monitoring the private school. I know even with a licensed private in home day care there are measures taken to ensure the safety both physically/, and mentally of all the children.Surprise visits is one thing that comes to mind, and I can't help but think if there was an independant group monitoring on a regular basis so many lives could have been so different. This leads me to wonder if in light of all the coverage regarding GCC-maybe on a provincial or federal level therre could be rules mandated to have all privately run schools monitored. So maybe some good could come out of all of this horror, and as a group we could be apart of that change. Talk about healing!!! Any ideas...??? P.S. thanks for moving this over to another thread-this seems much more constructive,and I hope we can all get it together here, and maybe find some healing, through understanding what happened, and how to make sure this never happens again. Most Sincerely, Catheerine | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
Hey Pugatory, Your idea is really practical and positive!!! We could find the umbrella association to which Grenville and other private schools belong, (I think I have the email address somewhere), and write them a letter advocating that the kind of monitoring that you suggest be done. We could also cc this to the federal / provincial education authorities, and see where it goes from there. I agree with you that this would be a way to learn from the GCC situation, and to help prevent future tragedies. | ||
| tmw Member Username: tmw Post Number: 71 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.77.90 |
I recognize that the staff did make choices. They chose to be apart of the “community” of GCC and by making that choice, chose to be apart of the CoJ. They chose to turn a bind eye to the various things that were going on. In some instances, staff chose to participate. However, I am inclined to agree with poormanspudding. The last rational decision these people made was the decision to move there. The brochure looked great, but once there, you quickly discovered you can’t leave Here are my observations: 1) “Cults” prey on the intelligent people. The reason for this is because once they are “programmed” it is virtually impossible to “de-program” these individuals. I think this is an important element. 2) Isolation/dependancy : these people were heavily isolated from family and friends. They were dependant on the “community” of GCC for everything. They had no money, no “outside” friends living “normally” and nobody to show them that the moral compass was off. Many were not aware of resources available to them, the dawn of the internet had not arrived, and their outings were monitored, just like ours were. 3) Group Think: Everywhere one turned, there were reminders that “they” were following “God’s Will”. That’s a pretty powerful message. As a group they were constantly being reinforced in this manner. Group think or group behaviour can lead people to do things they normally would find reprehensible. Think about crowd mentality. A person would not normally walk down the street and target someone for a beating, however, if this same person is walking in a group and the group targets a victim for a beating this same person would most probably participate. 4) Independent thought, questioning and doubt were heavily discouraged and punished. There was incredible pressure to conform. We knew and witnessed that as students. I am always reminded of “Hotel California” when I think of the staff. There were other things as well that I noticed, (I could probably go through all 13 points and sight examples I saw at GCC) but these four points are what stick out for me. | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
For those of you who are interested, please edit this letter. Be as brutal as you want; its only a first draft. Once we have something that we like, we can send it off. Canadian Association of Independent Schools Dr. James (Jim) Christopher, Executive Director 12 Bannockburn Ave., Toronto, Ontario, M5M 2M8 director@cais.ca (email) 416-780-1779 (telephone) Oct. 6, 2007. Dear Dr. Christopher; We are a small group of people who have been participating in on-line discussions of past and current events at Grenville Christian College (GCC), a school which several of us attended. One of the main focus points of our discussion has centered around gaining an understanding of what happened at the school, why it happened, and what we might be able to do to help to prevent other independent school students from experiencing similar scenarios in the future. We have an idea which we would like to share with you, as GCC was a member of your association. We would like to advocate that participation in routine and objective monitoring be a requirement for any school which becomes a member of your organization. The goal would be to provide "checks and balances" so that students could have avenues to confidentially and anonymously describe and evaluate their experiences at any particular school. The evaluators themselves should be neutral third-party professionals, trained in the identification and assessment of risk of abuse. We believe that this would be protective in assuring the safety, both physically and mentally, of students at independent schools. It would also reduce the possibility of isolation from the world outside the school, particularly for boarding students. As one of us has said; "I can't help but think if there was an independent group, monitoring on a regular basis, so many lives could have been so different." We would also like to communicate with you about this further, and would be happy to share our experiences and perspectives with you. Please note that copies of this email have been sent to provincial and federal education departments for their consideration. We look forward to your response. Sincerely, (Does anyone want to sign this??? Please edit freely first... be brutal!!!!) | ||
| sinderella New member Username: sinderella Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 99.224.11.219 |
Hey Strength, Do you actually believe that GCC would have been a member of CAIS if they were monitoring and evaluating as you propose? These organizations are member funded, and look after the collective needs of their members. GCC only recently became a member of CAIS - post 1997. Any schools with questionable practices that would become under the scrutiny of such a monitoring would leave the association or not join to begin with, and save their dues as the monitoring would be of a negative value to them. Start lobbying the provincial government. The Liberals would love this. Just a thought. Cindy | ||
| 87expellee New member Username: 87expellee Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 66.78.123.203 |
Good point Cindy !! If membership in the CAIS is optional we need to go somewhere to make it manda-tory... hehehe | ||
| 87expellee New member Username: 87expellee Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 66.78.123.203 |
BTW... I really do agree with your point... Please don't take the sarcasm the wrong way. Catherine, thank you for getting the ball rolling on this and strength for writing the rough draft. Well done all !!!! | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
I just realised that most people may want to keep their confidentiality / anonimity on Factnet. So I've changed the letter, and will send it in myself. But people can feel free to use this one whatever they want from this if they want to write their own letter in. Canadian Association of Independent Schools Dr. James (Jim) Christopher, Executive Director 12 Bannockburn Ave., Toronto, Ontario, M5M 2M8 director@cais.ca (email) 416-780-1779 (telephone) Oct. 6, 2007. Dear Dr. Christopher; As you may know, there has been much discussion over the internet as to past and current events at Grenville Christian College (GCC), a school which I attended. One of the main focus points of the discussion has centered around gaining an understanding of what happened at the school, why it happened, and what former students and staff might be able to do to help to prevent similar scenarios in the future. An idea was raised by one of the other participants involved in the on-line discussions. I would like to share the idea with you, as GCC was a member of your association. The basis of the idea is to provide abuse prevention strategies for independent schools. Key to this would be implementing a policy wherein participation in routine and objective monitoring would be a requirement for any school which becomes a member of your organization. These "checks and balances" would also include avenues in which students could confidentially and anonymously describe and evaluate their independent school experiences. The evaluators themselves would be neutral third-party professionals, trained in the identification and assessment of risk of abuse. This would be protective in assuring the safety, both physically and mentally, of students at independent schools. It would also reduce the possibility of isolation from the world outside the school. I am interested in communicating about this further, and would be happy to share my experiences and perspectives with you. Please note that copies of this email have been sent to provincial and federal education departments for their consideration. I look forward to your response. Sincerely, | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 63 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
You raise really important points, but if we send the letter to the government, won't that help???!! (I really don't know what I'm talking about, but I do think that purgatory's idea was brilliant.... and its worth a try to get the ball rolling). | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
I haven't sent in the individual letter... we can still choose to do it as a group if you folks like??? | ||
| gcc_1981_grad Member Username: gcc_1981_grad Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.51.137.96 |
this is a private school investigator put in place by the Ontario Government. GCC would have been subject to their checks.., I have heard of this through various sources - not first hand. So I am not sure on this. | ||
| late_lights New member Username: late_lights Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 74.101.55.104 |
I've written and re-written this post many times, and I'm still reluctant to post it after things seem to have settled down, I'm honestly not looking to start anything... That being said, being back at Grenville last weekend, and looking through all of the old photos, it made me realize how many of the staff (at least when I was there, late 80's to late 90's) were former students of either the Berean school, or Grenville. I have no real idea what the training or "initiation" process was for these staff members, other then what has been posted by Roz and I think one or two other people about the "boot camp" (hence my hesitation to post. I really don't want this to come across as an attack on Roz). However I don't know if this "boot camp" was something everyone had to go though, or if it was implemented only rarely. So I guess my first question would be, was going through that "boot camp" the norm for everyone? Only for former students? or just for people deemed "necessary"? And secondly, (again not sure how to pose this question without possibly raising a few hackles, so please don't take offense), if the secondary school part of Berean/Grenville was so abusive, why would people knowingly put themselves through more abuse just to become staff? This isn't a question posed directly at Roz, but she is the only person on here who I know made the transition, so if she felt comfortable weighing in, I'm sure she could offer some great insight into this entire discussion. | ||
| gcc_1981_grad Member Username: gcc_1981_grad Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.51.137.96 |
Late_lights : I am not sure if it is about "why would more people put themselves through this", as it is about why did it take so long for someone to stand up and say "This is not right". Typically it is a rebel who takes the role of standing up and saying "enough - this has to stop". Rebellion at GCC was seen as a sin - - and we all know how GCC dealt with they believed to be a sin. | ||
| susan_margaret New member Username: susan_margaret Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 24.235.189.173 |
Dear strength, That is a great letter. I remember an awestruck investigator sitting in on our french class in 1980. I was the only one of the four of us who wasn't bilingual. I used lots of earnest "mais oui's" and we must have seemed very advanced and super educated. Cindy is right about going to the province, but the CAIS is a good start. | ||
| 87expellee New member Username: 87expellee Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 66.78.123.203 |
Hmmm, A government official ... that definitely deserves further investigation.. WHERE WERE THEY! Yes, strength. We should send your letter to anyone who will listen. I suggest we leave the other thread alone. The petty bickering is just awful. Let's treat this thread as a new start and endeavour to be civil and remember that in this medium the same post can often be taken a number of ways by a number of different people. | ||
| susan_margaret New member Username: susan_margaret Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 24.235.189.173 |
Dear 87expellee, I can't really say who she was or where she was from. I just remember her in the library with us, inaudible ooh's & ahh's coming from her side of the room. And an official-looking clipboard. Lots of people from the "outside" thought that Grenville was the cat's ••• in those days. | ||
| sinderella New member Username: sinderella Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 99.224.11.219 |
CAIS is a waste of time. Its a lame member driven self-serving organization. Go waste your energy. Dalton McGuinty is your man. A true LIBERAL But why listen to Cindy, she is an outsider, not welcome because she has an opinion not conducive to the agenda this forum. She challenges, pokes around and is the only one making any logical, non emotional sense. My feelings are hurt. Maybe I should just go away, like you want me to.  Cindy | ||
| sinderella New member Username: sinderella Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 99.224.11.219 |
69Expelle wrote "Good point Cindy !! If membership in the CAIS is optional we need to go somewhere to make it manda-tory... hehehe A sense of humor beneath all that anger, can you join me and doperules for a anger management threesome? I am blushing.... Seriously. The fact the CAIS is member driven org is self-explana"tory" and besides the evaluations would and could not be obliga"tory" by any school. Think RED! Cindy | ||
| purgatory Member Username: purgatory Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 65.95.148.70 |
Strength, and to everyone else who is picking up on this thread....I don't know how the rest of you feel, but I know I feel a hell of a lot better than I did yesterday.It seems we are really starting to come together in trying to make some good out of an awful time in our lives.The fact that I feel so much better after reading all these posts shows me that there can be personal healing in reaching out to the most vulnerable members of our society.I know we are in the early stages of trying to put something together here, and just a thought--a rather simplistic one, but what if we were to go to our owm MP's, and MPP's with the same cover letter that strength has put together? This could show we are a united group-with the same purpose in mind, and seeing that we all live in different areas we would be reaching many members of parliament? Cindy - a special thank-you to you for joining inn on this thread, and pointing out some very valid insights. Catherine | ||
| purgatory Member Username: purgatory Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 65.95.148.70 |
Just another thought-if we were to go ahead with a letter doing this as a united group would show there is no alterior political agenda going on. I'm sure we all represent different political parties, but when it comes to protecting the innocent of society I would like to think we are united as a group.Each one of us going to our own MP's, and MPP's with the same letter would prove politics does not play a role in this as we are all represented with different political parties in our ridings. Catherine (purge-a-tory)LOL | ||
| 87expellee New member Username: 87expellee Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 66.78.123.203 |
Thank you Susan Margaret for that valuable insight. I don't know what parameters these investigators are guided under. But they obviously need to be changed. Scratching the surface is not nearly enough. One thing of note: kids today are a lot less likely to allow this to happen to them than we did, and perhaps, this kind of scrutiny in not necessary in today's world. But investigating this line further is definitely in order. | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
Purgatory; Your thoughts are wonderful!!! To build on what you have said, here's an idea (for those of you who are into it): Lets each take the individual letter, change it whatever way we feel best suits our own needs, cc it to whatever politicians we can, and email it to the President of CAIS. Lots of other groups have done this kind of letter writing endeavor, and it works sometimes!!!! We're not accusing anyone, or blaming anyone, or shaming anyone.... we're just trying to prevent pain for others in the future. | ||
| susan_margaret New member Username: susan_margaret Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 24.235.189.173 |
Purgatory: I like the group idea too, although taking that letter over to my MPP's office is tempting. It'll give her something else to think about before the election. I agree with 87expellee that this whole thing probably won't happen in the same way. It was sort of a "perfect storm" of elements coming together, the coj, the Haigs, the "godless" era... Kids I've hired know their rights really well these days. My cousin in Australia was given a course on how to manage today's young workers. Blind obedience doesn't enter into it! I pretty much hated Grenville. I see the same crap out here in the real world too, and I'm sensitive to it. I can't say I was abused as much as other people, but I beleive them because I saw it. My own light session was a cakewalk compared to sitting there seeing young kids humiliated. Sometimes I wanted to confess to whatever it was just to get it over with. | ||
| poormanspudding New member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 22 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.141.164.20 |
Hey Strength; Just wondered if you could respond to my post above about the cult aspect of all of this. You said you wanted to know why things happened I have answered you regarding the cult aspect of GCC. Could we discuss this? I'd like to know your take on it visa vis the responsibility of the staff. | ||
| bluesman Member Username: bluesman Post Number: 80 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.83.79.247 |
Part 1 -- What happened at the cofj and GCC cannot really be understood without an understanding of how cults, or high demand religious groups, work. I prefer the second designation because the c-word brings up all kinds of reactions in people and isn't really that helpful in analyzing what happened. First, I appreciate someone reposting the 13 hallmarks of groups with a high level of thought control. As someone with over 20 years of experience with both groups, I can personally attest that all 13 of those behaviours were practiced to some degree in both places. The end result of isolation from family, overwork, rigid dogma, suppression of questioning, authoritarian leadership, light sessions, public and private correction, and the other "features" is a brainwashed individual. Brainwashed is a highly emotionally charged word. For those who want the short version, this research started with POW's in the Korean War. What they discovered is that, given the right circumstances, any human being can be brainwashed. These circumstances would include most or all of those 13 characteristics. Note that the original work in this field was not done in a religious context. Adding the religious component makes it especially powerful, and toxic. As poormanspudding said, the threat of hell is a powerful motivator to a devout individual. Naturally, any non-brainwashed person can look at the beliefs and practices of a high demand religious group and see them for what they are. However, people inside the group actually see everything differently. As a result of whatever mind control they have undergone, they actually believe reality to be something other than what it is. They are wearing "upside-down goggles". They see everything the opposite of how everyone else in the world sees them. But since they have looked through these goggles for so long, and everyone they know and trust around them also has the same goggles on, they believe that "outsiders" are seeing it all wrong. | ||
| bluesman Member Username: bluesman Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.83.79.247 |
Part 2 -- Please understand that I am in no way minimizing or making excuses for the horrible abuses that took place. I am trying to explain how it is that otherwise intelligent and basically good people can be so blind to the obvious. Yes, staff were subjected to light groups. Life was just one extended light group, though we did have regular planned and unplanned meetings as well. And it is true that once you made that initial decision to join the group, that was in many ways the last decision you ever made. In fact, I heard FF say on many occasions that very thing: joining the community is the last decision you will ever make on your own. Why would anyone in their right mind then join such a group? I have to tell you that if someone had said to me, "Hey, how would you like to join this group where you'll work insane hours for starvation wages, have all self-respect and dignity stripped from you, be separated emotionally and physically from your family, and be told daily what a piece of human dreck you are?", I would never have signed up. Unfortunately, the picture presented to the "recruit" and the reality are two different things. And the "recruit" doesn't begin to see the reality until after that fateful decision was made. And by that time, you've already bought into the system. To make it more difficult to extricate yourself, not only did you sign up for this group, but you also made a solemn vow to God that you would always obey (the vow of obedience), AND that you would live out your entire life on that property in Brockville (the vow of stability). These were solemn vows, and we all knew that to go against them meant separation from God Himself. I joined these groups because I was a sincere and devout Christian at the time, and I wanted to serve God and have my life make a difference. And from the outside, these groups seemed to offer a way to do that. Kind of like a spiritual Marine Corps (you know: "the few, the proud…."). There is no excuse for what happened at gcc. But there is an explanation. | ||
| bluesman Member Username: bluesman Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.83.79.247 |
Part 3 -- This is a very simplistic explanation about the dynamics of what happened at GCC. It explains in a rough manner how people could join this type of organization and be blinded to the real culture of abuse that was occurring simultaneously. It is, however, an explanation and not an excuse. There is no excuse for the abuse of power, no matter how small the leverage, that occurred at GCC. No child should ever be forced or lured into such a vulnerable and humiliating situation. As a parent of children who were students at GCC, I was appalled to learn of many situations in which the trust that I placed in people, the school and the community was broken. For educators, the training of children is a sacred trust. The same is true of clergy. People in these professions are no different than those of other professions...they are responsible to uphold a high standard and to know what that standard is. As an organization the school failed at promoting professional standards with regard to relating to the students. They did not train their teachers in this manner but instead mandated that the "community" lifestyle be imposed on the students. I doubt that many parents knew that this was part of the bargain. The clergy likewise crossed the boundaries of their profession when instead of guiding young minds they manipulated students through fear and unreasonable discipline. This was not about care, but about power. | ||
| bluesman Member Username: bluesman Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.83.79.247 |
Part 4 -- Understanding the trauma of abuse is not easy, even for those who have been the victims of that abuse. I am not surprised that many people have a difficult, if not impossible, time wrapping their brains around what has come out in the press and on this site (and others) about GCC. It may just take time for people to gain an understanding of a very complicated dynamic and then to accept that it happen right under their nose. For those unblemished, be glad that you are. One question that has come up several times is in regard to why these allegations have not come out until now. I would suggest that it is important to consider the social context of the 70's and 80's. Unlike now, there was little general public exposure to abuse and certainly not the educated awareness of the nature of abuse among young people. As well, this situation defines diabolical, that is appearing godly, but proving ill. I would suggest it was confusing for many students and difficult to explain to their parents what they knew in their guts. The boundary defining good and the bad was very blurred. I would also suggest that those who did try to speak out were brutally silenced (R&T) and individuals isolated. Legally, the ability to pursue abuse without being beaten down again in the process has also changed even in the last ten years. I also think it is timely and important that institutions are held to the same accountability in dealing with people as people are to each other under our laws. No person or group of people should be without the accountability that by its own nature works against the abuse of power. For an exceptional insight into the dynamics of abuse see the following Newsweek article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21047603/site/newsweek/ | ||
| bonnieb Member Username: bonnieb Post Number: 82 Registered: 1-2007 Posted From: 65.73.216.126 |
Awesome Post, Bluesman! Thank you so much for both your thoughts and the Newsweek article. Lots of food for thought. | ||
| quietgrl Junior Member Username: quietgrl Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 67.193.90.64 |
I am late to this discussion... but the conversation regarding the association of private schools... I remember when I decided to leave gcc... my mother enrolled me at Ridley college... they said that they would need to contact gcc and tell them that I was coming their way... I freaked out.. I was terrified that they would know I was leaving and that things would get worse for me.. than they already were... I was told.. that ordinarily... they would be bound to tell gcc that I was coming to Ridley next year.. but... GCC had been kicked out of the group... due to questionable practices... and so... they would not have to let them know... Again... people knew about gcc... just food for thought.. | ||
| purgatory Member Username: purgatory Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 65.95.148.70 |
Bluesman--I am impressed-you gave me something that I think I can actually understand-or at least I am starting to understand how this all could have happened.I was thinking today about the many people who are in the military, and the extensive training these people must go through. The military today is made up of some very well educated,& mentally sound individuals...that being said I believe they must also go under extensive training in regards to being POW's-how to survive, and keep their mind from being brainwashed by their captors...If these very specialized, and educated people have to go through such training it is easy to see how the average citizen could be brainwashed, and have their life taken from them so to speak. Just a thought, and once again thankyou for such clarity, and insight regarding a very complicated issue. Catherine | ||
| mandatoryfun New member Username: mandatoryfun Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 99.231.191.202 |
Remarkable clarity, Bluesman. Much appreciated. | ||
| bluesman Member Username: bluesman Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.83.79.247 |
To all of you that are moving forward to make sure that future students in other schools have some measure of protection.....thank you. I feel so strongly that any time of accountability and awareness will go a long way to protecting further generations. Children today on the whole seem to be much more informed and do have the availability of the internet to find answers to questions. However all are still vulnerable and need the protection of concerned adults. It is never easy to advocate for yourself. Again thank you. | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
Poormanspudding; You've asked me about the cult aspects, and the responsibility of staff. I can only answer with my opinion. To me it was about human beings' incredible ability to hope. And it was also about the compelling beauty of GCC's vision and its promises to us, to all of us. We were all so filled with hope. Hope that what we were being told was right and true. Hope that it really was what God wanted, and that He was at the foundation of it all. Hope that if we simply obeyed, worked hard, and prayed, we would receive the grace and blessing and strength that human beings look to their Creator for. And the beauty of what could be accomplished by a humble, obedient and hard-working community seems so God-filled. It was beautiful. The landscaped grounds, the music, the order, the prayer garden, the structured study sessions, the peacefulness of evening Compline service, the hand-made birthday cards, the pretty girls and handsome young men in their tidy uniforms....... it was all complete and appealing. "There is nothing more beautiful than a life of obedience." This promise was coming true before our very eyes. It was worth ignoring or sublimating those small inner voices that told us to run away from hurting each other. It was worth it, because it was beautiful and we had hope. That's my personal opinion of the essence of how GCC became a cult, and how people's vulnerability and humanness was turned against them. Its the only way I can understand what happened to staff and to many of us students. I think about it sadly, and ask God for wisdom. | ||
| poormanspudding New member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 24.141.164.20 |
Bluesman: Thank you so much for commenting on this. After spending 20 years at GCC, I am really struggling with coming to terms with all of this. Reading everyone's stories about what happened to them brings up my own feelings of what happened to me as a teenager and as an adult. Feelings that were unacceptable to feel while living there. So, even now, allowing them to surface, feels wrong but they are there nevertheless. Then there is the part of me that hears the pain and anger in the stories and wants to rush to the defense of what I see as my family and home. This defensive side of me seems to win out most often right now. Confusion, grief, anxiety, anger -- it's hard to know what to do with it all. I have felt much compassion and patience from many posters here. These are very difficult times but I trust that we will all have find the healing we deserve. Thank you Strength, as well, for you comments -- I appreciate your response. | ||
| 87expellee Junior Member Username: 87expellee Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 66.78.123.203 |
poormanspudding.. Your inner struggle has not gone unnoticed. I was hesitant to chime in regarding some of your posts as a result. After 20 years it's no wonder you get defensive at some of the negativity that some of us show. It will take time. The first step has been taken. You are aware and have been released from their grasp. One step at a time... | ||
| bluesman Member Username: bluesman Post Number: 85 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 68.83.79.247 |
poormanspudding -- It's not easy to extricate yourself from the grip of an ideology/relationship/life that you gave yourself to and then later found it wasn't what you thought it was. Besides the inevitable "how could I be so stupid?", there is the work of rebuilding your inner self and reclaiming what you gave up. I can only say that, for me, it's been worth everything to be able to do that. I have in my wallet a poem by the 13th century Zen poet Muso. I've carried this poem with me since November 2000. If you're who I think you are, this might speak to you: For many years I dug the ground looking for blue sky, accumulating layers and layers of mediocrity. One night in the darkness, the roof tiles were blown away. The bones of emptiness dissolved of themselves. --Muso Love to you on your journey. | ||
| breaker_19_girl Intermediate Member Username: breaker_19_girl Post Number: 257 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 64.187.49.202 |
Thanks bluesman...... Late lights... I hope that this answered your questions.... And, really there is no diff in engaging in cult "like" vs cult as you have mentioned. | ||
| late_lights New member Username: late_lights Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 74.101.55.104 |
Of course there is. I could be watching a film that was "Michael Mann-esque" but that doesn't mean it was directed by Michael Mann, it means it shares some of the same elements reminiscent of a Michael Mann film. If something is "cult like" then it means it is like a cult, sharing some of the same characteristics, but obviously not all of them, otherwise it would just be considered an actual cult and not LIKE a cult... | ||
| kate_skinner New member Username: kate_skinner Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 216.13.88.86 |
Quietgrl: I also went to Ridley directly after GCC. I wonder how you got on there? I was much relieved to be away from all the insanity, but still had a helluva time coping. My academics went down in flames that year. Just wondering if you had any unusual "fallout" that presented the next year... Kate | ||
| kate_skinner New member Username: kate_skinner Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 216.13.88.86 |
Breaker_19_girl...Shouldn't you be in bed????? Get better soon. Kate | ||
| spain Member Username: spain Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 69.204.220.65 |
I appreciate the honesty and thougtfulness on this thread. As bluesman, I went there as an adult, a committed Christian and was there a couple years before I was aware of anything "off". Life there among the staff was VERY secretive - we knew next to nothing. I am sure that you students knew more about everything than we did. I never dared ask a question, for fear of getting yelled at for being "inordinately curious" - so I just minded my own business and tried to do my 3 jobs. I agree with everything Bluesman said - and I am not trying to defend ... Since these postings started in earnest in 2006, I have been horrified reading the posts of former students and what you all endured. You were children, teenagers, and we did not protect you as we should have. I am sorry. | ||
| poormanspudding Junior Member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 64.40.180.98 |
Bluesman said: "As an organization the school failed at promoting professional standards with regard to relating to the students. They did not train their teachers in this manner but instead mandated that the "community" lifestyle be imposed on the students." As a 16 year old, who had quit school in gr. 10 and was sent to GCC to straighten out, I had a lot of issues, mostly related to my parents whom I loathed. Ours was a household of silent anger, sarcastic put downs, marital war, and negligence. When I arrived at GCC I was angry and got angrier the more I was disaplined. FF told me I held the record for clocking more time on pots than in classes (as well as scrubbing the black marks off the boys and girls' stairs in less than 20 min. -- an accomplishment I am still proud of today) Although, I did not want the family I had, I wanted a family more than anything else. I spent a lot of time with the staff. I was separated from the student body often and some poor staff lady had to shadow me for weeks on end. In fact, because I was disaplined so much, I spent most of my time with the staff. I grew to love them and saw that their life was no different than mine. They were disaplined, they had marathon light sessions... Some even shared what was going on in their lives with me. This started the process of breaking down the walls I had erected between me and adults. Some of my disaplines included cleaning the staff trailers and babysat the staff kids. I even helped Mrs. Phelan shop for shirts for Mr.P. Finally, my father, who was so humiliated because I was always on D or sent home -- threatened to bring me home for good if I got in trouble one more time. Of course, I did -- but FF decided not to tell my dad and give my one last chance. Because FF saved me from going back to a home I detested, I gave up fighting the school. I 'bought in' as they say. FF became a father figure to me and the staff became my family. The 'community lifestyle' became my lifestyle. We were all in this together. So, that is the beginning of my 20 year journey at GCC. My loyalty runs deep as a result. That is why all this is so difficult for me now. | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
poormanspudding... thanks for sharing this with us. A lot of us stopped fighting, and the trade-off was seemingly good. We got to be a part of that family. My dad died when I was very little, and my sibs were much older than me. I remember being envious of the staff kids for getting to stay at GCC for Christmas, because it seemed like they really did celebrate it as one big family, with little subgroups of families. By that point I also had come to love many of the staff who represented security for me. | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 90 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
My sense of being a part of the family at GCC was finally shaken at the very end of my fifth year. I made a really small mistake (I picked up the Haig's puppy when I wasn't supposed to). This was interpreted as me being "haughty and high" (remember that phrase, anyone?) As a result it seemed like the order came from the top that every single staff person was to try to bring me down. Everywhere I went in the school, someone would correct me and tell me how low I was. I was also told that it was God's will that I become staff at GCC, and that I was rebelling against Him by being haughty and angry. The staff, whom I had come to love over the five years, were suddenly completely against me as a person. I had worked really hard to please my mom and GCC, (Ontario Scholar, top student in many classes, prefect, editor of the yearbook, All-Ontario Public Speaking finalist, etc.), so the comments seemed really cruel, and they were definitely devastating. At first I was hurt that the staff would just accept and obey what they were told to do to me. But after a while I became blue, and I felt so betrayed that I went "inside myself" (remember that one too?), and started to fantasize about going to university, being with friends at home, and just plain old escaping from the school. I also opened my eyes to what was happening with the staff kids, and with some of my friends. It was like the light went back on, and I was again a fighter who knew that what was going on was wrong. I couldn't ignore the cruelty, and I came to a nineteen-year-old's natural conclusion that the staff were unthinking and obedient servants. Joan Childs was the only person who figured out what was going on with me, and reached out to me in the most creative and merciful way (but that is another story). All through the class trip to the cottage, and all through graduation I could barely look at the school's "leaders" without being filled with the deepest sense of disgust. This is what cured me of my sense of family at GCC. Almost as soon as I left the school (1981) I started researching cult phenomenon and the impact it has on people. I saw myself and my obedience to GCC in every word. | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 91 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
The puppy's name was Halley, short for Hallelujah. I was answering the phones in front office during lunch. The Haigs kept Halley in a baby's play-pen, so that she wouldn't be exposed to germs. | ||
| mandatoryfun New member Username: mandatoryfun Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 99.231.191.202 |
Hmmmm, you make a lot of sense with the family thing. My reaction ended up being different. I bought into the ostensible family environment at the very beginning only to find out -- in my opinion -- it was a big lie. Staff weren't allowed to get close to you, I don't think. Caring/closeness for me isn't spending extra time helping us study, nor is it acting compassionate towards a kid after you've broken him or her down. I can picture DS telling me, once I had been truly humiliated by DS&SP for something I couldn't figure out, that "we have done good work here" after I became hysterically apologetic. Because they told me they'd forgiven me and I was so upset, it felt like some sort of catharsis to have their approval again. I figured out what I had done months or years later and now I think it’s kind of funny. My actions were completely devoid of malice but that’s not how things worked at Grenville. If staff wanted to take out their crappy lives on you, they would, and they did it with impunity. Such systematic disrespect of kids. My apologies if some of you are way past this by now; I’m not, really. I’m glad some of you thought you connected with the staff. All I saw were people I’d lived with for a big chunk of my life speaking to me as if it were the fourth time we’d met, and I hated it. When it came to censure, of course, then they assumed the authority of people who really knew you. But when I was graduating, it was back to the cold, unemotional faces and indifferent treatment. | ||
| poormanspudding Junior Member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 64.40.180.98 |
This may be way too much information for some. It is interesting to try to put the pieces together… I think for me, it was a perfect storm of several things that helped pave the way to accept GCC. All the correction and discipline somehow felt right and familiar to me. There was a certain comfort in it. I know that sounds pretty weird but I’ll do my best to explain. From day one my parents said that I was a bad child and that I was too much for them. I now know the reality that their marriage was a wreck and had broken up several times. My mother was emotionally unstable and had attempted suicide twice before she married my dad. I was born to her at age 40 and it just about put her over the edge. My sisters, who had moved out by this time, were called in to help her. A few years later, at age five, my mom attempted suicide again when we were home together and was hospitalized in a mental institution for a year. My oldest sister was drafted home to look after me and said when she got there I told her “I made mommy go away”. After mom was discharged from the hospital, she was told to limit her contact with me – so nannies were hired. I spent the rest of my childhood trying any way I could to get her attention and getting only negative reactions. So, I came to GCC as someone who felt guilty just for being and that who I was inside was essentially bad. I was sure I caused the failing marriage and later I claimed responsibility for her suicide attempt. Bottom line: I was used to hearing how bad I was. I felt no good just being me. So – GCC’s approach of correction and humiliation just felt right to me and familiar – as perverse as it sounds. | ||
| breaker_19_girl Intermediate Member Username: breaker_19_girl Post Number: 281 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 64.187.48.38 |
Hi Strength and Poormanspudding, You have posted so magnificently and capturing so much. For those of us who attended GCC back in those days it was like that. Mandatory, You have it right too. It is like a metamorphis how the family thing dynamics changed. GCC changed alot. In away as I was reading the posts of Poormanspudding and of Strength and perhaps I am wrong: I am reminded of puppies and small children who when they are punished go to the person who punished them seeking back love and forgiveness. When logic would have it that they should seek that from someone else. You seemed to have become indoctrined in to the correction and humiliation as perverse as it would sound to someone else.... I too agree it seemed right and seemed natural. But, again I say sometimes people who came from horrendous backgrounds seemed to come in with a target and they were sought out..... For a lot of us we did spend more time at GCC than home so the perverse is we did think they were our home and family. Atleast sometimes that is how it is personally for me.... It is just a crazy thing.... hard to articulate, yet in my mind it makes sense and what you all have posted makes sense. But, again objectively???????????????????????????? | ||
| sandrabrownearly Member Username: sandrabrownearly Post Number: 54 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 162.83.61.245 |
Poormanspudding...I realize we don't know each other, and I assume that as an adult, you realize that you were not responsible for your parents divorce and your mother's suicide attempt, but your story hurts my heart. (Big hug to the five year old...it wasn't your fault.) | ||
| strength Member Username: strength Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 69.156.2.152 |
sandarbrownearly, you have so much heart. | ||
| poormanspudding Junior Member Username: poormanspudding Post Number: 29 Registered: 9-2007 Posted From: 64.40.180.98 |
Sandra; My age appropriate head knows that it was not my fault but my default behavior patterns are to act out of guilt and sometimes look for punishment -- sick I know. I am working to change this. It is freeing to know that this is some of the reason why GCC impacted me the way it did. Hugs right back to you. | ||
| sandrabrownearly Member Username: sandrabrownearly Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 162.83.61.245 |
Default behavior patterns based on childhood experiences...sounds like your human to me! The fact that you acknowledge that and are working on it is what sets you apart. It's a lifelong journey, my friend! Strength...thank you. Sometimes I think I have too much. My ability to empathise can be overwhelming. When people hurt, I hurt too...especially children. (I'm sure thats based on my childhood experiences!) | ||
| wagener84 Member Username: wagener84 Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 68.151.117.98 |
I empathize with the many students who have shared their stories of abuse as much as those students who have had their happy memories shattered by the allegations. There will be no healing or closure unless all parties respect each other's opinions and allow justice to run it's course. To those who have suffered...nothing can be gained by trying to convince others that GCC was a terrible place. To those who had a fanatastic GCC experience, nothing that occurred prior to your attendance or subsequent legal proceeding can tarnish your own positive and happy memories. For those that suffered greivous mental, physical or psychological harm, nothing that occurred after your experience will convince you that it's all in your head and you did not suffer. Let's all keep things in the proper perspective. I attended GCC for 7 years form 77-84 and was rarely targetted for the most part until a relationship in my senior year was uncovered. Some have claimed that I was a "golden child". Perhaps, however, I freely and honestly say that I did see others who were persecuted in Jesus' name. My new friend Dan Grant was a fine young man who was troubled by several issues growing up. He was adopted and could not understand why his birth parents gave him up. GCC used that against him and suggested that he was not living with Jesus in his heart. He was persecuted for the two years I knew him and was expelled for the "sin" of having kissed a girl. This was wrong. He was a good young lad..and meeting him at the closing reinforced this point. There are many others who suffered the same fate who did not deserve it. My point here is that GCC was positive for many such as myself but a negative experience for others including my friend Dan. Everyone must keep an open mind and realize that not all experiences were uniform in nature. A little more understanding and a little less judgement would go a long way in providing healing and a positive sense of closure for everyone. Cheers. Mike Wagener (Pirate King ;) 84 (Message edited by wagener84 on October 14, 2007) | ||
| kmiller1610 New member Username: kmiller1610 Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 76.28.74.76 |
I agree. If we were to list possible attitudes of the GCC staff, which do you think is closest? 1) I am a sadist who enjoys torturing children with threats of hell and believe that if you spare the rod, you will spoil the child and since I was abused as a child, this is my chance to let someone else have it! or 2) I think that sin is deeply rooted in the souls of children and must be uprooted and removed through an aggressive process of confrontation and discipline. or 3) I really enjoy working with children and I just didn't have the time to get a teaching degree so being here sort of fulfills a dream I've always had and I guess I'll have to gloss over some of the abuses around here so I can keep doing what I feel is my calling. Perhaps I can be a hand of mercy to those kids who end up in the crosshairs of the light session leaders. I personally think that the percentages for the three questions would be something like this: 1) less than 5% 2) between 30 and 50% 3) between 20 and 40% Other: the rest | ||
| rozpriceenglish Intermediate Member Username: rozpriceenglish Post Number: 127 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 172.170.25.67 |
That's a good question/poll. I would add to #3 that some of the staff were actually not permitted to study OR it was made so difficult for them that they just gave up. | ||
| kmiller1610 New member Username: kmiller1610 Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 76.28.74.76 |
I know that I was clearly a #3 and even though I was only at GCC for 6 months, I was so grateful that I had been given a chance to teach, I was willing to overlook a lot of things I should have taken as a HUGE red flag. I guess the point is that there was this underlying, unspoken agreement between staff and management of the school. Most of us were NOT qualified to teach or counsel or take care of children. This made us more compliant to what we were told because we didn't know any better. A professional in childhood development or counseling or teaching or ministry would never have tolerated what was done. An interesting story. There were a lot of Asians at GCC when I was there and they were actually harder on themselves than we were on them. Some of them couldn't sleep because they were so compelled by honor and Shinto philosophy to push themselves to excel. I had a discussion with one student who was getting straight As who could not sleep because he thought he wasn't doing enough and was letting his family down. I can see how that kind of student would fit right in. They already had tons of guilt. | ||
| gcc_1981_grad Member Username: gcc_1981_grad Post Number: 85 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 74.15.65.83 |
The Asians that attended GCC came from Hong Kong. At that time in Hong Kong getting into University was difficult as the number of students who wished to attend were far greater than available spaces. so a lot of families sent their children overseas in order to attend university in other countries. Going to a boarding school overseas increased the chances to attended university in those countries. Also Shinto is based in Japan. As far as I know no children from Japan attended GCC. | ||
| kmiller1610 New member Username: kmiller1610 Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 76.28.74.76 |
Thanks for the corrections. What was your impression of the Asian Students? | ||
| gcc_1981_grad Member Username: gcc_1981_grad Post Number: 86 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.51.137.96 |
they were my friends | ||
| kmiller1610 New member Username: kmiller1610 Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2007 Posted From: 76.28.74.76 |
Sorry. Don't mean to seem so detached. I left the whole mess over 25 years ago. In reading these threads, I just start thinking about more theoretical questions, questions that I like to speculate about. I'm in a business where I try to figure out people's motivations. I realize most folks here are in pain, trying to help those who are in pain or are trying to re-write history to make themselves feel better. For my part, I'm thinking about "Why do people like C&J get so much power?" "Do people just want to be told what to do?" If we close one place like GCC, do some folks just seek another prison to live in because that's what's familiar? Can everybody recover? Do they want to? Not that you or anyone else wants to indulge in this kind of thinking. | ||
| gcc_1981_grad Member Username: gcc_1981_grad Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 70.51.137.96 |
trust | ||
| rozpriceenglish Intermediate Member Username: rozpriceenglish Post Number: 129 Registered: 8-2007 Posted From: 172.167.97.54 |
I had a roommate from Japan. She was a hoot. Very funny girl. | ||
| pandersen Member Username: pandersen Post Number: 97 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.87.143.158 |
Kmiller1610, humans are drawn to "strength" like moths to a flame. Take someone like Cay who had repeated experiences of the paranormal throughout her lifetime and believed, as she often said "God speaks to me", who was an angry, unreasonable person who was never wrong, and who intimidated those around her as well with her explosions of anger. Bingo. The perfect mix. There is an interesting book called "If You Meet the Buddha on the Road, Kill Him" which deals with just this issue of how we get addicted to gurus. While I don't personally agree with the book's ultimate conclusions, the author makes some really good points in this area. | ||
| halhelms Junior Member Username: halhelms Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2006 Posted From: 74.93.127.201 |
Agreed, Peter. If you wouldn't mind, would you share about what those paranormal experiences were that Cay had? I'm very interested in exploring how people confuse anything that's out of the ordinary with God. | ||
| pandersen Member Username: pandersen Post Number: 98 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.87.143.158 |
I remember back in the 1950s Cay would "know" things, almost telepathically. I think she was what you would call clairvoyant. Some examples: When we were living on the Cape and her father has a heart attack, she somehow knew this, and wasn't surprised when the phone call came telling her of it. The night our friends' home in Eastham burned down (1957), she had a dream all night of a house on fire. Or she had a dream/premonition once about friends who used to own Mayo's Duck Farm in East Orleans, that something was very wrong and she needed to warn them. She kept saying, it's not about the ducks, but the chickens. As it turned out, the owner's wife was very ill, and her nickname was chicken. One evening in the early 1960, we were sitting in the living room at Rock Harbor, and Cay asked Heidi, "Who is Tante Margarite"? Then Cay proceeded to tell Heidi all about this Aunt of Heidi's in Germany about whom Cay had no prior knowledge. Once Cay and Judy were given a special present by a friend in Eastham and Cay knew what was in the box before she opened it. I'm sure there were more instances like this. All these repeated occurrences led Cay to believe that she had a special connection to God. People were of course intimidated by her "supernatural" powers. | ||
| iwonderwhy New member Username: iwonderwhy Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 134.48.216.41 |
Peter, I remember hearing about some of the examples that you just cited. They were described as instances of Cay's supernatural gift of knowledge. These things and others that were similar seemed to indicate God's special anointing on the ministry of Cay and Judy. They were a significant basis of their authority. This whole issue is very confusing to me. Were people being drawn via a demonstration of occult power? Where was God in this whole mess? | ||
| pandersen Intermediate Member Username: pandersen Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.87.143.158 |
It's hard to answer that. I know that when Cay and Judy were together, they had a really powerful and scary charisma. Apart from each other they were nothing, as was demonstrated by the ease in which Judy was deposed soon after Cay's death. Their charisma was reinforced by these instances of "divine" gifts they purported to have. Such abilities are not that uncommon in people with psychic powers. Take spiritist Edgar Cayce for example. Or Jean Dixon in the 1980s. | ||
| iwonderwhy New member Username: iwonderwhy Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2007 Posted From: 78.47.251.210 |
Peter, Thanks for your quick response. I'm probably trying to pin down things that elude categories, but I'm trying to understand how so many well meaning, spiritually seeking people were led astray. What are your thoughts about psychic powers? Are they natural gifts, a manifestation of the daemonic, or an anointing by the Almighty? Cay and Judy acknowledged that their charisma was a result of their relationship with each other - that they were powerless as individuals. But who/what was the bestower of the charisma that came from such a corrupt relationship? | ||
| pandersen Intermediate Member Username: pandersen Post Number: 102 Registered: 5-2006 Posted From: 24.87.143.158 |
I wonder if some "psychic" powers are just natural gifts - perhaps we all have them latent in some fashion, just as some people have musical talents. Just like any other natural gifts, they can be put to the service of others or to their oppression and destruction. Cay and Judy definitely swung over to the dark side. At what point all that happened, and whether at the beginning of their ministry their source was godly, is anybody's guess. There is one experience in particular that has been a source of confusion for me personally for decades, but I don't know that I want to discuss it on this public forum. If you want to e-mail me at: cpandersen [at] swissinfo.org I would share more. Just put "Cay & Judy" in the subject line. | ||
| neverbroken New member Username: neverbroken Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2007 Posted From: 24.67.253.203 |
I'd like to comment on psychic powers. I believe everyone has a sixth sense- this sense has been debated about for years. Some people listen to that inner voice and some do not. If anyone has ever been involved in policing - he/she would know what I am talking about. Nonetheless, sometimes this inner voice is wrong - and one tends to forget about those times. I think that people who become fanatical in religion - need to attribute this voice to a higher power in order to rationalize and justify their actions - good or bad. This in essence shifts the blame and responsibility from within. |
