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Message |
    
davegilmore
New member
Username: davegilmore
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 24.30.57.48
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | 
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Greetings! I am new to this site and would like to "hear" how many of you are faring. I was at Faith Assembly in the early days. Started at Dr. Freeman's home in Claypool, Indiana while attending the Glory Barn on Friday nights. Was a part of the church until late 1978. My Mom started the "commune" many of the early people lived in during the 70's. So many lives changed through the teaching and subsequent application of the teachings at Faith Assembly. The truth is in the fruit. |
hardbones
Member
Username: hardbones
Post Number: 57
Registered: 12-2006
Posted From: 65.93.30.110
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 7:30 pm: |
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You may be interested in looking at this site as well bro.
http://www.overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/ |
davegilmore
New member
Username: davegilmore
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 24.30.57.48
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 8:31 am: |
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Thanks! So what is the purpose of this site and what is being accomplished through the myriad posts? Is this a place for honest debate or a place for catharsis or what? I'd like to understand. |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 452
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.20.121
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 10:35 am: |
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Dave: It is at present a place of warfare.
I came here much as you are now, thinking that I could find solace among brethren.
However, it is quite clear that there are 2 distinct camps:
Freeman haters, and those who want to follow Jesus.
...as far as what is being accomplished through the postings, I can say this personally: . ....Contrary to the Freeman haters objectives of digging up a dead man, and browbeating him like some ancient Catholic court ritual, and by this bringing shame upon everyone who has/had respect for him, it has only served to galvanize my own beliefs, and redefine who I am.
www.OvercomersOnline.com, is more a place where those of us who are not overcome with hostilities toward HEF and FA can speak freely and discuss issues without the interruptions of screaming children. |
studious
New member
Username: studious
Post Number: 19
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 2:04 pm: |
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I asked you before, Hombre: do you attend the current FA in Warsaw, or do you listen in and/or watch on PalTalk? Just a simple question; I have nothing up my sleeve. One problem I have with independent thought vs. peer pressure--you and I know, in principle, that HEF and his guys weren't gods, but people not ready for spiritual meat had to hang on his every word because that was all they had; the Bible wasn't clear without HEF's interpretive gloss. I was in the same boat with the International Churches of Christ: I was so afraid to question anything and eventually accepted their doctrines because I didn't know any better. I don't hate Freeman or you, but I understand where his/your detractors are coming from as well. |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 51
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 2:37 pm: |
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Studious,
I'm not hombre, but I can say that if you would give him an unbiased reading you'll find that he isn't a defender of all things FA... now if you read the opposition notes you quickly see that they keep banging their heads on the middle partition wall thinking that they have found a true blue 1980 faith assembly grad. This is why it is so frustrating. It goes like this:
Christian: You can take God at His word.
The factnet multitude: Off with his head, Freeman is dead; this man shouldn't be allowed to spout Freeman's doctrine.
Christian: What does Mark 11:24 say?
The factnet multitude: You are responsible for the death of many... you don't deserve to live!
Christian: We all should be responsible to uphold the integrity of the Word of God.
The multitude: Freeman is poison; we've suffered at the hands of this man!
Christian: Grow up you morons; I'm talking about each of us having a relationship with God.
The multitude: MOMMY! DID YOU HEAR WHAT HE CALLED ME? WHAAAAAH...
William |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2866
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 38.119.107.74
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 3:18 pm: |
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" There seem to be two groups, Freeman haters, and those who want to follow Jesus". Hombre
Now that is not a fair statement-we don't HATE Freeman(who died from an illness he didn't have medically attended to) just his off the wall teachings that caused many pain. R |
studious
New member
Username: studious
Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 3:24 pm: |
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William, do you at least acknowledge that something went wrong as FA's first incarnation proceeded and, at its core, it was legalism and hero (HEF) worship on the part of people who didn't know any better? The current FA church, based on my limited communication with them, has learned from the past and leaves it up to the individual whether to seek medical care. |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 453
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.240.202.161
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 3:37 pm: |
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...too funny, William...
BTW: YOU SAID 'MORON" !
Studious:
I don't attend FA now, or in the past. I was part of the Indpls. outreaches, and subscribed to the automatic tape mailings of HEF, Steve Hill and Bruce Kinsey from 1977 - 1986.
I am also not looking to proselytize anyone, I wandered in here looking for comraderie and found to my chagrin that the only comraderie one can find here is with those who want to deny almost everything that the Bible clearly teaches, while using HEF and FA as scapegoats to do it with.
I don't go to Paltalk for several reasons:
1. I waste enough time already and
2. I'm on Mac, and that environment isn't supported.
IMO, FA/HEF was the only group I've ever been with that does it right:
There was a lengthy series of theological studies called ( en masse ) 'the school tapes'. These consisted of new and old testament theology and surveys, and individual other assorted studies like Christian ethics and poetic literature, etc. In these 'school tapes' one was able to study at ones pace, and learn a remarkable amount, which BTW...was not at all slanted, and is VERY mainstream conservative core Christianity.
Todays' churches may have a few pages of what they hold up as their beliefs, but nothing really as in-depth as we had.
We had access to post-graduate level material.
We had excellent teaching and foundational resources.
Where people got off the boat was, IMO, when the assembly became so large, that personal attention became impossible, and the general assembly became a herd and began to assume religious forms that were not necessarily directed by the leadership....peer pressure was behind much of the trajedies that occurred.
Most that write in here at Factnet were kids then, and for the most part, they simply don't know the whole story, and only want someone to crucify. |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 454
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.240.202.161
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 3:41 pm: |
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quote:Rachel: we don't HATE Freeman 1. ) (who died from an illness he didn't have medically attended to) just his 2.) off the wall teachings that caused many pain.
1. ...you apparently didn't read about my friend who died of the same thing in his mid fifties, who did everything the doctors told him to. So what.
2. ...you mean like Mark 11:24, and Isaiah 53 meaning what they say they do? |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 5:04 pm: |
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***************************************
Studious: William, do you at least acknowledge that something went wrong as FA's first incarnation proceeded and, at its core, it was legalism and hero (HEF) worship on the part of people who didn't know any better? The current FA church, based on my limited communication with them, has learned from the past and leaves it up to the individual whether to seek medical care.
***************************************
Duh... of course something went wrong. We've hashed it out over and over; just read some of the threads.
Legalism? You bet, and we had no excuse, just listen to the teachings on Galatians from HEF.
Hero Worship? Yes, to some HEF could do or say no wrong. I do make a distinction here concerning the Bible teaching, it was unparalleled in both depth and simplicity. Now if you've found a church that has a pastor that teaches stuff as if he were teaching an advanced seminary class, then watch out, you might be guilty of putting him on a pedestal... don't leave though, those kinds of pastors are extremely rare.
The current FA church? Well it is still dealing with "headcovering issues," and whether or not we (the Diaspora) should move back to Indiana,(from Joe's blog) so if you say they have moved on, then I'll need a little more evidence.
See my note dealing with the Diaspora:
http://overcomersonline.com/FUDforum2/index.php?t=msg&th=74&start=0&S=f7eb7a3da71199f570a6d14fd727e4d8
Concerning the headcovering issue from Joe's Blog the entry from Wednesday, August 1, 2007 Galatians 4:
http://frontpage.kconline.com/faithassembly/joblog0708.htm
Special irony... Galatians 4 is the passage for that day.
Concerning Medical attention? Well, you'll need to go far in your reading to find someone (with the exception of fivefoldfool--a name he acknowledged to be a suitable moniker) that has not left it up to the individual whether to seek medical care.
Now, the issue that causes the most gnashing of teeth, is the fact that some of us have taken the good teaching from HEF and give him kudos (is that occult?<grin>) for essentially stating so plainly what should have already been plain, and helping us to realize that the Word of God is alive and well and is worthy to be believed.
William |
studious
New member
Username: studious
Post Number: 21
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 5:43 pm: |
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I've read Joe's blogs--he writes very well. I've also read FiveFold's posts and he said that he wouldn't stop anyone else from getting medical attention (though he'd probably warn them of occult influences from what I gather in his diatribe). Also, though he doesn't go to the dentist he does brush his teeth, something which a few diehards still don't do! He won't wear glasses and claims healing from poor (up close) vision. I do believe, as a former optician, that if you continually use glasses your eyes stay weak. I only wear glasses to watch TV, drive, and when I'm outside the house, though I see pretty well without glasses. Still, legally I have to wear them to drive. Good thing that FiveFold's vision problem was with reading, 'cause he lives in a motor home and drives a lot, it seems. |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 53
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 7:26 pm: |
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Well, as I've mentioned before, I have never met one FA'er who didn't brush their teeth (as a matter of practice).
Now, if fiver isn't an exception, then I don't think you'll find anyone who doesn't leave medical treatment as a personal decision. I'll stand corrected if you find one who does, but I believe that I've read almost every post on here and I've never seen it.
However, you will certainly find a bunch of the opposition making that unfounded claim against anyone who has been blessed by HEFs ministry.
Just take the glasses issue; there are those on here who will stumble all over themselves to jump on the case of those who wear glasses. In fact, I've worn reading glasses since the FA days whenever I pull a small print tomb off of the shelf, yet I don't have any driver's restriction, or any other need for them. Now you would think I slaughtered a pig on the altar because in my picture on the other site I have on my reading glasses. I actually did that on purpose because it was such a biggie back in the day, I wanted to scare off any legalistic soul before they could even get started with that garbage.
Not that the healing of the eyes is garbage, (the Lord is our healer) or how one acts out their faith, but the attitude that condemns without knowledge, that is the garbage I'm talking about.
Concerning Joe's blogs; I don't know the man or much about anything that goes on in his assembly other than what he has written. My point was, if the headcovering is still a big issue then I'll wait for more evidence before I'll agree that they've moved ahead.
William
(Message edited by william on October 02, 2007) |
studious
New member
Username: studious
Post Number: 23
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 9:16 pm: |
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Here's my exchange with Joe Brenneman. I had to split it into 2 parts because posting all this apparently is too big for the program:
[FROM ME] Actually, I’m responding to your July entry. I emailed you last Sun. & didn’t hear back; is it because I’m a skeptic? I must say that you’re very articulate and I find it hard to believe that you were associated with a church known for such - - - (I don’t want to say, thus hurt your feelings)- - - you know what I mean. I’ve copied what I emailed before, but I’m curious, that’s all. [Original email below]
I am not a member of your church but browsing with a couple of questions: since the death of Dr. Freeman & the ensuing fallout, have you, as de facto leader of what’s left of his church, acknowledge that it had turned into a personality cult? Have you softened on some of the harsher practices I’ve read about, such as not brushing/fixing teeth or using eyeglasses? Even Christian Scientists go to the dentist & optometrist, and I depend on both, as well as on doctors and, no, I don’t give God the credit but understand it as human agency, which God DOES NOT condemn if it is for commonsense daily living. I for one cannot abide by a set of beliefs that are so absolutist about both medicine and debt, neither which I think the Bible calls sinful, though debt is undesirable. Yes, I’m a believer but probably not a Christian according to your standards. [FROM HIM TO FOLLOW] |
studious
New member
Username: studious
Post Number: 24
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 9:21 pm: |
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[FROM HIM--I HAD TO SPLIT IT INTO TWO PARTS] Dear friend,
I am sorry to say, I did not receive the email from last Sunday. I was not ignoring you. I hope I can answer, or at least respond reasonably, to your questions.
I was not here at the time Hobart Freeman was living, but I have a blood brother who was, and I knew his widow, so I believe I can speak with some authority, if what I say can be accepted as being true, in spite of that limitation, and in spite of what you have heard. Some of the things that were reported about Faith Assembly were flat out false. Others had some element of truth in them. And, some things were true for some who attended, but not everyone.
Since I came after Hobart Freeman was gone, I certainly did not join because of worship of the man. But, I can acknowledge that there were many who did, for all practical purposes, worship the man, and as present pastor, I do not agree with or condone that. However, I cannot agree to the statement that it had turned into a personality cult, because that would depend entirely on each individual, and I know there were many who did not worship the man by any means, for the simple reason that they maintained their personal integrity and independence, even though they were part of the work. I personally never knew the man, so my knowledge of him came as a result of listening to his teachings on tape. My concern was whether his Biblical doctrine was sound. I speak only of what he represented the Bible to say, not the logical extrapolations that he and others spun out of it. Does the Bible teach divine healing or not? But not, is it a sin to go to a doctor. Can you understand the distinction I am making? I am human, and I understand a human mind, so I do not hold it against anyone for spinning logical extrapolations. I doubt any minister is completely free from doing that. Not to excuse, but then, we must be careful not to condemn, for we will be judged by the same judgment with which we judge others.
Some of the harsher practices you have read about were false on the face of them, and others were simply personal logical extrapolations of the teachings. There never was a policy against going to doctors (many people who attended Faith Assembly did, in fact, go to doctors), or the brushing of teeth (although there were some, considered weirdos by the majority, who went to that extreme; I can certainly assure you, Hobart Freeman and his family brushed their teeth!). Also, Hobart Freeman on several, if not many, occasions, warned against not going to a doctor if one was not in faith concerning a physical affliction. Many people did wear glasses who were part of Faith Assembly, although there were some who did not, and were very conspicuous with their squinting to see across the room (if nearsighted) or to read their Bibles (if farsighted). So, some things you heard represented as if they were the norm, simply were not. Was the church supposed to throw out people who took things to an extreme? I think not.
Hobart Freeman taught, as you believe, that there is a difference between faith and some other means of provision, whether for healing or for finances. He taught using common sense nearly to a fault (such as that it is common sense to come in out of the rain, which my children laugh about, because our family has always enjoyed being out in the rain! Seriously!). Nevertheless, it is up to each individual. If salvation depended on not going to the doctor, or not getting a loan, then salvation would be based on our works, which is clearly unscriptural. |
studious
New member
Username: studious
Post Number: 25
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 9:25 pm: |
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[AND PART TWO]
So, I do not know what to say. The things that bother you would bother me, if they were true to the degree you seem to have heard. I can only say, we still teach divine healing, supernaturally, without doctors. But, if someone goes to the doctor, that is his personal choice. We still teach God will provide for our material needs without having to borrow money, if we seek first God's kingdom; but I myself am using money on credit against the value of my home, and I do not see that as the same thing as unsecured debt, such as running up a credit card balance, and so on. Having known the widow of Hobart Freeman personally, I have been able to find out for myself more of how his mind ticked. I know every mortal has weaknesses. I believe his great weakness was that he did not grasp that people were taking things he said to such an extreme. He always believed the best of people. He would defend their right to apply their faith as they saw fit. Yet, because of this, the church was criticized. In fact, in some cases, he firmly corrected excesses.
I must also say, although I am the present pastor, I am under no obligation to do everything the same way Hobart Freeman did. God did not die when Hobart Freeman died. The Holy Spirit is still alive, and continues to open up the truths of the Word of God. If I find something different than how he taught it, I must teach it as I see it. But I can, and I do, largely stand behind what he taught, because it really was, substantially, sound, orthodox Biblical doctrine.
I have no questions about your personal salvation, if that is of any comfort to you. What I think, or anyone else thinks does not matter anyway, does it? It is not a struggle or question to me to close by saying...
God bless you,
Joseph O. Brenneman
Pastor, Faith Assembly
Office Manager, Faith Ministries & Publications
[I think that he glossed over the increasingly intense legalistic peer pressure I've read about here because, as he said, he wasn't there, but he also seems to want to forget about it and move on.] |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 54
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:12 pm: |
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Based on what you've posted I would say that he seems like a lot of us... a reasonable man who respects the teachings of HEF while recognizing his failings.
The only area where I would disagree with what he said is here:
**************************************************
Many people did wear glasses who were part of Faith Assembly, although there were some who did not, and were very conspicuous with their squinting to see across the room (if nearsighted) or to read their Bibles (if farsighted). So, some things you heard represented as if they were the norm, simply were not.
**************************************************
I'll let him off the hook since he wasn't there, but it was exactly the opposite. There were few (I can count them on one hand without using my index or middle finger) who openly wore glasses to the meetings. There were those who wore them to drive because we were taught to obey the law, but if there were *many* who wore them--they certainly didn't advertise the fact. *Not* wearing glasses was the norm.
William
(Message edited by william on October 02, 2007) |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 27
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:24 pm: |
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I've read posts that mentioned husbands and/or fathers (not of the person posting) who were ordered to give up their glasses and were not able to drive, therefore couldn't properly provide for their families. Sad if true, but it seemed like hearsay, or maybe there was an isolated incident that the person posting made to appear as the norm...? |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 55
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:36 pm: |
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There were those who refused to drive because they couldn't pass the eye test, but "ordered"? By whom?
Trust me, it was peer pressure, there wasn't any "authority figure" giving orders, it was simply a bunch of legalistic idiots (myself included here) looking down our spiritual noses at those who didn't shape up to our misguided understanding of these issues.
William |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 29
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:57 pm: |
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And they couldn't pass the eye test because it wasn't spiritual to wear glasses? As for being ordered (or coerced or inspired) to throw away glasses the "poster" didn't say by whom. I don't remember the exact wording and don't remember where I saw the post. Of course, if one wants to take God's promises to the their logical conclusion (Mark 11:24 and all that), then God should heal eyes and He has, but perhaps some of us have thorns in our flesh to keep us humble. I can't say my faith is mountain-moving either, but I'm not going to keep agonizing over relatively minor things like glasses when such lofty doctrinal discussions are taking place here. I can't even follow some of the discussions because they're so advanced, and I have a master's degree in history! |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 56
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:52 am: |
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Yes, they couldn't pass the eye test because they refused to put on a pair of glasses. Now as far as not working to provide for their family, that is misleading. There were a lot of people who had their wives drive them to work or other members took them to work. I don't know of anyone who didn't work. There may have been some lazy butts who didn't, but they were subjected to the same sort of peer pressure and were ostracized and wouldn't have lasted long at FA.
Besides, in north Indiana, there was a whole class of people who didn't drive (the Amish) but that never hindered them from providing for their families, and I don't mean they just worked on their farms, most did that in addition to having another job at a trailer factory or whatever. If you wanted to work, there were jobs, and if you didn't drive, there were ways to get to your job. Whoever posted that is just using HEF as an excuse for their lack of ambition.
I know what you mean about these "lofty discussions"... even with my advanced educational attainments I'm having a tough time keeping up. (13 years of regular schooling and 3 summer sessions!)<grin>
William
PS. Okay, I had to edit this to say I exaggerated my achievements... it was just 12 years with no summer sessions. <blush>
(Message edited by william on October 03, 2007) |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 31
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 9:23 am: |
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Why did they refuse to put on a pair of glasses? a) Glasses unspiritual? b) Glasses expensive? or c) Glasses too much effort to go and get (the person was lazy)? Maybe in a church as large as FA became, all of the above, depending on the person. There's a deep theological discussion going on at the "tomax" site that has my head spinning. Michael the Disciple is getting into God's nature (one vs. three). More than spiritual meat--spiritual gristle! |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 57
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 9:46 am: |
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It happens because of what Joe called "logical extrapolation".
God promises healing
Ask and you shall receive
You ask, you therefore received
Why do you need glasses anymore?
This is the logical extrapolation...
I just noticed the oneness stuff on http://www.overcomersonline.com
Looks like it is going to be a long day!
William |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 455
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.3.104
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 9:49 am: |
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quote:William: Well, as I've mentioned before, I have never met one FA'er who didn't brush their teeth (as a matter of practice).
...then there were the noble few who found occult influence in the logo of Proctor & Gamble ( Crest toothpaste ) consisting of 13 stars and a sort of silhoutted God figure......
quote:William: Now you would think I slaughtered a pig on the altar because in my picture on the other site I have on my reading glasses. I actually did that on purpose because it was such a biggie back in the day, I wanted to scare off any legalistic soul before they could even get started with that garbage.
He-he......
quote:William: Concerning Joe's blogs; I don't know the man or much about anything that goes on in his assembly other than what he has written. My point was, if the headcovering is still a big issue then I'll wait for more evidence before I'll agree that they've moved ahead.
..are they still 'recommending against' halter tops and bikinis as inappropriate vesture within the assembly?...I suppose they're against the new Victorias Secret Lingerie look too.
...but seriously, I remember one day during one of the end-of-the-year seminars with Steve Hill and Tom Hamilton, when Steves wife, Pam wore a ( gasp/shudder! ) PANTSUIT!
Steve actually explained to the assembly, that the type of 'pants' that she was wearing were 'of a female tailored nature' and not to be confused with male attire.
...now then, to me, that certainly speaks to the issue of the leadership atempting to bring the little jews and catholics within the assembly into reign, and to assert in a positive manner the freedom that we have in Christ.
...although I remember some hushed conversations amongst the legal-ati following the 'unveiling' of Pams' vestiture.
...since it was the leaderships' wife, and the daughter of HEF ( and not just any daughter, but the obedient one ) , it was kinda difficult to criticize her outright, but lets' just say that Pams' example did not catch on.
..onward marching legalists, marching on to war...
..with the laws of Moses, freedoms galore to gore..... |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 32
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:01 am: |
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So switch toothpaste brands. I don't know what you mean about halter tops and bikinis in church...if women dressed like that in a church, I'd run in the other direction. Am I taking you too seriously, Hombre? |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 456
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.3.104
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:08 am: |
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..just joking about that issue.... |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 58
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:15 am: |
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Women wearing pants in the assembly? That was even more rare than glasses. I remember one poor soul who visited FA and wore a pants suit... <ouch>
...and we eshewed legalism! (Ha! We didn't know the meaning of legalism.)
William |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2868
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 38.119.107.74
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:27 am: |
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't know what you mean about halter tops and bikinis in church...if women dressed like that in a church, I'd run in the other direction".(studios)
Who does that??? That is stretching the truth! I'll tell you what-I would be more worried about the men who wear their pants down to their knees-showing off their undergarmets..How often we see a double standard in these churches...
People need to care for their bodies-brush their teeth and visit the dentist and when one sees a physical concern they should not ignore it0by pleading the blood they need to visit a doctor and work towards making themselves healthy with the logic and reason that is God given..R |
william
Member
Username: william
Post Number: 59
Registered: 6-2006
Posted From: 65.4.4.106
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:28 am: |
|
***************
Hombre:BTW: YOU SAID 'MORON" !
***************
You said it first!
Momma, he's picking on me again!!!!!!
William |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 457
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.3.104
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:30 am: |
|
quote:William: I remember one poor soul who visited FA and wore a pants suit... <ouch>
....well, one good thing about the unwritten female dress code back then ( the blue jean tent wrap ) is that there was no way any man would have ever been tempted to lust after any of them.
...as opposed to the now, in the churches I have attended, it would appear that women have gotten their cues on modesty from Cosmopolitan. |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 33
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:36 am: |
|
Rachelengland, of course Hombre and I didn't really think that women dressed like that in a conservative Protestant church, but men's underpants showing? Nope, I go to a fairly worldly (by your standards) Catholic Church in Louisiana no less and I haven't seen any men/boys wearing their pants low like that there and I sure hope I never do! Now, some women dress a bit provocatively, but I don't think it's intentional. |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2869
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 38.119.107.74
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:36 am: |
|
....well, one good thing about the unwritten female dress code back then ( the blue jean tent wrap ) is that there was no way any man would have ever been tempted to lust after any of them.
...as opposed to the now, in the churches I have attended, it would appear that women have gotten their cues on modesty from Cosmopolitan" Hombre
That is TOO funny hahahaha...... You have got to be kidding me-so you make the women look real ugly in order not to lust after them! That is like saying women who dress sexy are more likely to get raped..
Cosmopolitan!!!! How do you KNOW about that magazine Hombre? |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 458
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.3.104
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:40 am: |
|
quote:RachelEngland: How often we see a double standard in these churches...
Oboy!...now for my next hobby horse:
Male Dominance: a God Given Natural Order.
...was it W.C. Fields that said:
..women are best seen and not heard within the assembly, or was that God?
....hmmmmmm....
..we need some relevant discussion here...... |
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2870
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 38.119.107.74
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
|
Relevant discussion, OK, Hobart Freeman and many others died and suffered from not seeking medical attention and not using God given logic. R |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 459
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.3.104
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:49 am: |
|
quote:RachelEngland: 1. )That is like saying women who dress sexy are more likely to get raped..
2.) Cosmopolitan!!!! How do you KNOW about that magazine Hombre?
1. Heck no, as far as I'm concerned the typical FA lady is just as likely to get raped as a chick in a black leather minidress and high heels in any dark alley. Criminals are equal opportunity offenders!...and any way, there is absolutely NO WAY that a womans appearance has any effect whatsoever on male hormones.
2.) GASP!...you found out my secret! I shop at Wal-Mart and forget to wear my lead glasses at checkout that one time...... |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 460
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.3.104
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:55 am: |
|
quote:Studious: ..Now, some women dress a bit provocatively, but I don't think it's intentional.
...now that would insinuate that at least some women are not in full possession of their mental faculties...perhaps they do need men to think for them.
|
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 461
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.3.104
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 11:03 am: |
|
quote:William: Momma, he's picking on me again!!!!
..I may change my expression to the immortal words of Fred Sanford:
'You big dummy! '
...and for our new churchwear, we will now sport the following when attending 'other churches':
http://www.teeshirtsrock.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=13670 |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 35
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:53 pm: |
|
Hombre, to say that a woman's appearance has no effect on men is ludicrous, at least with normal men, though with rapists it's another story: rape is about power, not sex. Anyway, I had a roommate who said that he was tempted to lust after every woman he saw. That's a stretch, 'cause there are ALL TYPES of women, and only a few could turn my head (not that I should be turning my head). |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 462
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.3.104
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 3:20 pm: |
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quote:Studious: Hombre, to say that a woman's appearance has no effect on men is ludicrous,....
Perzactly. You got my point.
...I'm not so sure though that rape is not also libido related, although I definitely believe that it is a violent crime.
....yeah, apparently your roomate hasn't seen some of the women that we have.
http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/ugly-people-376.htm
BTW: I googled 'ugly women' to find this...I DON'T hang out there!
|
rachelengland
Senior Member
Username: rachelengland
Post Number: 2871
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 38.119.107.74
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 3:39 pm: |
|
Riiiiiiiiiight....(LOL)
(Message edited by rachelengland on October 03, 2007) |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 36
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 3:52 pm: |
|
YIKES!  |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 463
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.240.194.121
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 8:01 pm: |
|
quote:RachelEngland:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3ZCbF_eOTw4
here is a women that could make you tell the truth Hombre hahaha
...every womans fantasy.
I repeat FANTASY.
..kind of a take off on the whole Gaia/MotherEarth/Babylon thingie, No?
...anyways, a coupla questions:
...would Wonder Woman keep my house clean, and have the food on the table when I get home?
he-he-he-he....... |
davegilmore
New member
Username: davegilmore
Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 24.30.57.48
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 8:03 pm: |
|
Wow! I was simply wondering how folks were faring and the trail of posts above give evidence to a troubled lot. I wish that all of the those impacted by these teachings over the years could find balance and healing.
So many losses, so much pain, so much anger. Bless you all. |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 37
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 8:44 pm: |
|
I'm not part of the group of whom you speak, just an observer. I was involved for 12 years (1981-1992) with a fundamentalist group (International Churches of Christ) that had one man on top, like HEF. It emphasized one-over-one discipleship and total, radical commitment. It has since disintegrated, but remnants remain. |
christlicher_soldat
New member
Username: christlicher_soldat
Post Number: 18
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 164.111.202.141
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 1:09 pm: |
|
I'm also mostly an observer. I read some materials an FA spinoff family provided me, and I wanted to take the plunge, I was really zealous, but I just couldn't fight the convictions of biblical truths that I knew contradicted what I was reading. I remember going into a shoe store one day and trying to positive-think away the chills and the terror I was feeling, when suddenly the question entered my mind: "Is this really the peace that passeth all understanding? Is this how it's supposed to be?" I was actively suppressing moral anxieties about joining myself to doctrines that I knew were responsible for an 80-fold increase in Indiana maternal mortalities. I had female friends from this spinoff, and I absolutely could not play a role in something that put them at risk.
For a while I was depressed, especially because at that point I became agnostic towards HEF's teachings and my frank but polite skepticisms were viewed as hostile, not inquisitive. I had expected dialogue. I had expected rational instruction about where my hermeneutics were going awry. I had expected someone to tell me why I was wrong so I could salve my conscience with biblical faith. All I got instead was, "You're trying to figure it out with your head instead of your heart. You need to exercise discernment." Well, yeah, but the Bible's the standard of that discernment. How can I discern anything when you're telling me that systematics are a waste of my time?
Eventually, I found a book by a Presbyterian minister that helped me come to terms with my faith, and in hindsight the experience was a real opportunity for growth. I really don't hurt for me anymore. The emotional pain comes from the knowledge that I have friends who are caught up in it and that it's impossible to talk with them about it unless I abandon all my questions and completely surrender my mind to them. And I really can't do that. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 43
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 4:04 pm: |
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Are your friends affiliated with the current incarnation of FA or are they among those few ultra-radical Freemanites who are "too good" even for that, shut themselves off from everyone, and slowly decay in their self-righteousness?
I actually signed up for PalTalk (audio only) just to experience the current FA church and it was quite interesting. I was able to IM others who weren't in attendance but listening in. It was all very mild and seemingly free of the peer pressure that existed before. Based on their answers to my questions (I tried not to seem like a reporter, which I'm not) they're free to get help from the medical profession, but I had to tiptoe because one person said she'd bounce me if I persisted with my questions, anticipating slander because I referred to the not-so-pretty past. Fair enough.
As I've said in previous post(s), I find Joe Brenneman to be level-headed and not given to blindly following a man, but the church's doctrines are clearly influenced by Hobart Freeman, which isn't entirely bad I guess, considering that he had a Th.D. Still, I don't have the patience to sort out some of the finer theological points brought up in this and the tomax forums. I'm not considering membership anyway.
In the International Churches of Christ, questioning equated doubting equated unbelief. You listened and obeyed or you were deemed rebellious. |
christlicher_soldat
New member
Username: christlicher_soldat
Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 164.111.202.141
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 7:12 pm: |
|
quote:Are your friends affiliated with the current incarnation of FA or are they among those few ultra-radical Freemanites who are "too good" even for that, shut themselves off from everyone, and slowly decay in their self-righteousness?
Well, I try to respect them by not referring to them as "Freemanites," but to answer your question, they seem to be the more radical type, since they have expressed distaste over FA's current state. However, they really are some of the nicest people I know. I'll tell you the raw truth about their unwillingness to dialogue, but please don't provoke me to talk trash about them. At the core, I'm a really passionate person, and it's a battle not to give in to the anger, especially when I feel that womenfolk are being mistreated. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 108
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 7:48 pm: |
|
If I'm not mistaken, there are people who follow William Branham in Bible Believers Churches. Radicals. Branhamites? He's the prophet to the Laodicean Church or Elijah or something. They sit around and listen to his old sermons on tape, put posters up on telephone poles-a picture of Branham and the halo and tell people to believe the sign. They preach against denominationalism just as (excuse me, but I don't know what else to call them) "Freemanites".
To me, it's the same thing, the same cult mentality. And they have an unwillingness to dialogue as well. It's sad. |
christlicher_soldat
New member
Username: christlicher_soldat
Post Number: 21
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 164.111.202.141
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 8:11 pm: |
|
I hear you, johiyom. And it's not necessarily that I'm even giving them the benefit of the doubt. It's more or less that I care about them too much to stigmatize. I've read stories from FA kids about how the Warsaw community treated them. I've even heard a few stories firsthand. I can't do that to friends.
And then there's guilt. When I did first find out about this family (they tried to hide it from me)... Well, as I said, I'm very passionate, and some of the ways I acted really hinder me from being able to backtrack and say right out, "This isn't right. I respect you, I love you as brethren, and you're fantastic people, but I can't encourage you in believing this." That's really the most painful part about it, that they were so mature and I was so condescending. So, sure it's a PC mouthful, but I try to say things like, "people who share the doctrines of HEF" or "members of FA spinoffs." |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 44
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 8:14 pm: |
|
Soldat: How are womenfold being mistreated? I understand that Paul said, "Wives be submissive to your husbands," so not much would surprise me. Are these friends of yours' distaste based on a more individulastic approach to everyday things like glasses, false teeth, etc., or is it more obscure doctrinal objection? I won't try to drag you into the gutter...remember, I'm not a journalist. If you wish, I could reveal more personal information about myself so that you can google me or something. I mean it, since I have nothing to hide. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 110
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 8:34 pm: |
|
Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't care about journalists or the media? What's the paranoia about them anyway? It's like some Faith Assembly people have this "no comment" mentality about so much, which makes it seem like they've really something to hide. I've written letters to editors of newspapers on various subjects over the years, only to have my commentary "edited" and the whole meaning changed by leaving out words or sentences. Let's just tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Luke was a journalist, so to speak:
Luke 1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Acts 1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Believing should be based on infallible proofs, certainty, eyewitness accounts...nothing to be ashamed of and nothing to hide. |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 45
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 9:30 pm: |
|
Sorry...just covering my bases. I didn't mean to associate you with the paranoid types (whoever they are)...perhaps I'm falling for journalistic sensationalism myself. Forgive me. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 111
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 10:19 pm: |
|
It would be a great thing if more people wrote and published books about Hobart Freeman and his ministry and FA, in my opinion. I'm thinking of the books by Gordon Lindsay on the lives and ministries of William Branham, John Alexander Dowie, and John G. Lake. Also a book written by Roberts Liardon on God's Generals. Something can be learned by stuff like this. The Bible itself tells the stories of men of God, warts and all. Right and Wrong. Where they succeeded and where they failed. |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 46
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Saturday, October 06, 2007 - 10:55 pm: |
|
Dowie??? He was a megalomaniac who considered all medicine evil, and he IS written about--you just have to look in works about Pentecostalism, etc. He founded a city, after all. I just read a book, The New Charismatics: The Origins, Development, and Significance of Neo-Pentecostalism by Richard Quibedeaux (1976) that includes material about Dowie and probably some of the other characters you mention. |
christlicher_soldat
New member
Username: christlicher_soldat
Post Number: 22
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 164.111.202.141
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 12:05 am: |
|
studious: I feel like the womenfolk are mistreated in that they constitute a large portion of the fatalities, and in that some of them have dreams and aspirations that they can't pursue because women are homemakers gets translated to women can't work outside the home at all. One of my friends wants to be an engineer, but she can't because Daddy says no. More than almost everything else, I think that hurts me the most.
I would say their objections are more individualistic. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 112
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 5:11 am: |
|
christ_licher,that is another example of why I can see parallels between the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and some of the FA mindset-the spurning of higher education/college for both men and women over the course of the history of this religious movement especially when they were in another one of their date setting for Armageddon moods. Don't the Amish frown upon higher education as well? Not sure how old your friend is, she being under the authority of her parents and all, but they'd better watch out. They might have a little "hellion" in the making when she grows up if they don't allow her to pursue her dream of going to college to be an engineer. Good little girls sometimes go "buck wild" on their daddies. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 113
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 5:31 am: |
|
studious, yes, Dowie founded Zion, Illinois. He was however adamant against Pentecostalism, when people started receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. He was highly critical of the ministry of Maria Woodworth Etter. John G. Lake was a part of his healing movement but went on to become Pentecostal himself and established a healing room ministry. The parents of Gordon Lindsay were a part of Dowie's movement too. And yes, in my opinion, like Freeman, Dowie denounced medical science wholesale. There was some sort of delusion about Dowie being Elijah just as those who followed William Branham. That's a few things I remember off the top of my head. |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 47
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 8:53 am: |
|
The following quotes are from one of Freeman's tracts: OCCULT OPPRESSION & BONDAGE. He didn't mention the medical profession, and where he could have would have been in the quotes below:
"When ill, have you sought (or were you subjected to as a child) treatment or healing of diseases, burns, sickness, wart removal, etc., through magic charming, powwow, Spiritualism, Christian Science, or by anyone who practiced psychic, spirit or metaphysical healing, or who used hypnosis, the pendulum, or trance for diagnosis or treatment?"
...And further down:
"CHARACTERISTICS OF OCCULT OPPRESSION AND SUBJECTION:
Chronic physical ailments that do not respond to prayer or treatment; serious marital or parental problems; strife and discord in the church."
I see two things in the last quote: he seemed to put prayer and treatment in the same category--working for the good; yet if the bad (ailment) persists, THEN, despite prayer OR TREATMENT (meaning--?), you're possessed. I know that part of the problem wasn't his "official" teachings but their interpretations by the congregation. The second thing I see is how, in him seeing strife and discord as occult oppression, he could have labeled anyone who might question something, even sincerely, as devilish. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 114
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 7:47 pm: |
|
"CHARACTERISTICS OF OCCULT OPPRESSION AND SUBJECTION:
Chronic physical ailments that do not respond to prayer or treatment..."
Apparently then he himself was under occult oppression. Heart ailment, polio, and some say diabetes. None of which responded to prayer at least, since he sought no treatment. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 115
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 8:06 pm: |
|
I can see his point if someone is questioning and causing strife concerning the key, core tenets of the Christian faith; the doctrine of Christ, etc. Like if someone persists in denying the Trinity, the Deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit, the Blood Atonement, physical bodily resurrection, as examples. But for people to have legitimate questions about things in the Bible theologians have themselves been wrangling over for centuries, with varying views and degrees of views, then that's not characteristic of occult oppression. His teachings themselves were controversial, causing strife and discord in the church so to speak. He broke away, after being dismissed after all, to start his own church and ministry so he could freely teach what he believed. It amazes me how many religious groups and movements are started by some man or woman who disagrees with the church they come from only to start their own church and ministry, then after they are established and gain a substantial following and "power", anyone afterward who disagrees with them is labeled as of the devil. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 116
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 8:42 pm: |
|
I'm laughing now. It just dawned on me he mentioned the word "powwow". I've had copies of this tract for years in my files.Sometimes it's spelled pau wau, of Algonkian origin. Being of Eastern Woodland Native American descent myself I attend Pow Wows, which means nothing more than a gathering of the people. We dress in our regalia, dance in a circle, celebrating our native heritage and culture. We eat native foods, like Frybread and Indian Tacos, Corn Soup, camp out and fellowship with one another. I see his comment as nothing more than ignorance and racial, cultural bigotry. Some Native Americans are Christians, some are not, holding to tribal religious views, but we don't gather together for the purpose of sitting around arguing about God. I'm not a tree hugger but I see NOTHING wrong with the respect that Native Americans had/have for the earth. This Scripture is a revelation to me indeed:
Revelation 11::18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 48
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Sunday, October 07, 2007 - 11:19 pm: |
|
I think that he meant that if you went to a powwow and there saw a medicine man...it's a gathering, isn't it? It isn't too much of a stretch to believe he condemned powwows outright, though, since he wrote, "through" not "at" powwows. I certainly have nothing against powwows, but since I have no Native American heritage, I don't think I have any business going to a Native American healer and, like you said, it's a cultural, not an occult, thing. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 117
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:39 am: |
|
I see your point. I wouldn't go to a medicine man or healer myself because I don't believe in it. But Pow Wows themselves are held all over the nation and Canada every year and open to the public. All kinds of people attend whether they are of Native American descent or not. They go to see the regalia, the dance competitions, sample the foods, and shop at the various craft vendor boothes, like a flea market. I've even seen orientals at Pow Wows. |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 118
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 6:42 am: |
|
A problem I have with things like this and other so-called deliverance ministries, as well as religious groups that dwell on what is or isn't of pagan/occult origin, is that it makes people afraid of objects. Paul said an idol is nothing. The only power an idol or object has is the power you give it and the power you let it have over you through your OWN fears. I could go to Wal-Mart, buy a Ouija board, bring it home and set it on my coffee table and the devil and his demons can't do a thing to me. It's just a piece of wood, plastic and paint. Now if I try to use it, dabble in the occult, attempting to conjur up spirits or whatever else you're supposed to be able to do with Ouija boards, then sure, I'm opening myself up to satanic influences. I just refuse to live my life afraid of mere objects, thinking I need deliverance or need to "cleanse" every item entering my house or that I may touch by pleading the blood of Jesus over them, rebuking spirits, etc. I know of people who let's say needed some baby clothes and someone gave them some- well they had to take the clothes through "deliverance" before they let their kids wear them. This is absolutely ridiculous. Touch not, taste not, handle not??? How do they know that the brand new baby clothes they bought in J.C. Penney, made in China, doesn't have some Buddha spirit clinging to it? ROFLOL! Christians end up more superstitious than heathen unbelievers. They don't understand the total and complete victory Jesus attained over the powers of darkness, so they end up giving more power to the devil/demons in their minds than he has- they make the devil TOO BIG and their GOD too small.
http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/holidays.htm |
studious
Junior Member
Username: studious
Post Number: 49
Registered: 9-2007
Posted From: 65.1.93.123
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 8:30 am: |
|
I wouldn't buy a Ouija board if I didn't intend to use it or give it to someone else to use, but you were using a hypothetical situation to make a point. Interestingly, one of the biggest problems I have with Catholicism (my wife is Catholic) is the opposite--blessing objects and water to give them "good" powers. We've been asked to be godparents to a grandneice (yes, infant baptism is another issue but I've come to terms with it), so my wife bought a rosary but wouldn't let the store wrap it because she wants a priest to bless it first. No harm, I guess, but is it really going to be infused with a power it didn't have before, and isn't that bordering on idolatry? You'd say yes and I'd understand where you're coming from, but I know that Catholics don't worship objects, despite what some might say. Native Americans believe every object has a spiritual nature (not that you do)...a kind of pantheism, but not really--? They have the Great Spirit, no? |
johiyom
Intermediate Member
Username: johiyom
Post Number: 119
Registered: 8-2007
Posted From: 75.185.69.124
| | Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 11:18 am: |
|
Yes some Native Americans hold to that pantheistic view, and they also refer to "God" as Great Spirit or The Creator or Grandfather even.
But there are many Christians among Native Americans. I've been to Pow Wows where prayers are offered in tribal tongues and English and addressed to The Creator, etc. I've also witnessed Indians pray to God the Father in the Name of Jesus in both their own tongue and in English. One man, for example, I knew just by the way he addressed God in his prayer, was Holy Ghost baptized too and he was from one of the Western Plains tribes, Ponca maybe. There was a power and authority in his prayer. He referred to God as "my God" and spoke the name of Jesus with passion and heartfelt devotion. It was beautiful. Regardless of how prayer is offered at these events, I bow my head and pray, knowing what I know, and often thinking of this:
II Kings 5:15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that [there is] no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant. But he said, [As] the LORD liveth, before whom I stand, I will receive none. And he urged him to take [it]; but he refused.And Naaman said, Shall there not then, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth? for thy servant will henceforth offer neither burnt offering nor sacrifice unto other gods, but unto the LORD.In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, [that] when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.And he said unto him, Go in peace. So he departed from him a little way. |
healed
Intermediate Member
Username: healed
Post Number: 286
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 60.41.167.126
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 4:36 am: |
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Its disturbing how in Joe's reply to studious, he paints an innocent picture of what went on at FA. Joe B. is just another Johnny come lately. He dont know what really went on. People didnt have a choice. Believe me, if they did, they would of been wearing pants and eyeglasses and whatever else Freeman sanctioned. You people got your heads up your behinds. What Freeman preached was hard core fanatical BS, and if you didnt get on his train, woe be unto you. If Freeman sanctioned pants for women, then all the young girls at FA would of went out and bought them, the same goes for eyeglasses, crutches, house and car loans, etc etc. The flock was following a man, its plain and simple to see. Stop trying to cover it up or twist it into something that it isnt. |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 471
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.50.108
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 12:03 pm: |
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quote:UN-healed: ...'He dont know what really went on'.
...I guess he don't, do he?
...can anyone tell me why anyone should pay attention to this illiterate?
...I'm guessing that in this guys case, the seed didn't fall far from the tree, which basically means that he is a product of ignorance as well....and of course, we should believe in his take on FA against a guy with a doctorate.
...now then, here's my question: ...why do I hear the tune from deliverance every time I read this guys' posts? |
healed
Intermediate Member
Username: healed
Post Number: 289
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 220.220.94.174
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 7:53 pm: |
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"we should believe in his take on FA against a guy with a doctorate."
Perhaps you should, at least Im still alive, and I got the sense that God gave me to know if a blister in my foot gets infected and I have the symptoms of diabeties, to get my self to the nearest hospital or Im going to die soon. It would seem to me that people like you who follow Freeman are more in tune with somebody from "Deliverance" in that backward town than I am, and I grew up in some hick places. Lot of those "hicks" got more common sense and are just more happy than you will ever be Hombre. You say should anybody pay any attention to this illiterate, but I notice that anytime I post, your the first to respond. As far as the tune from deliverance, I like that banjo and the fella that was sitting there wasnt even playing it, a pro was. Some of those people around the gas station could of been straight out of FA; no teeth, rags for clothes, goofy dancing, used cars and trailers/shacks for homes. Your a paradox Hombre, and even with all that intellectual horsepoop you spew, I find it too easy to trap you everytime. The bottom line is that you still follow a man who died because of his whacked teachings and it has been proven that FA was a cult. You are in denial of this so you try to craft clever responses to show us all that a follower of FA could not be a looney tune. Your still a nut, and most everyone here can now see it. |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 475
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.252.41.57
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 9:56 am: |
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quote:UN-healed: 'I find it too easy to trap you everytime.'
Oh yes, I feel completely defenseless and out of my league with you.
quote:UN-healed: 'Your a paradox Hombre'
Yes, that's quite the compliment. I'll take #'s 1 and 4 from the following list provided by dictionary.com.
par·a·dox [par-uh-doks] –noun
1. a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.
2. a self-contradictory and false proposition.
3. any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature.
4. an opinion or statement contrary to commonly accepted opinion.
Isn't that interesting?..one might include Jesus in that as well.
Now here's another question.
Can't we all just be friends and accept one another?
Uh...NO.
...as Hobart used to say:
'...you've got enough unbelief to sink a battleship'....and so do all of your buddies.....you see, Un, it;'s like this, you are of your father, the devil, and I used to be too, until I recognized the sacrifice that Jesus made for me, then I accepted the fact that I was living blindly in sin, just like you are now. From there God adopted me as a son, and a joint heir with Christ, and He still puts up with me on a day to day basis, even though I may from time to time fall into little 'errors', like calling you what you really are, instead of having patience with you while you continue to thrash about, drowing in your own ignorance and refusal to accept Jesus as the Christ.
Hey.
Here's a rope.
It's called: Jesus Saves and Keeps.
You might want to grab onto it, before it's too late. |
healed
Intermediate Member
Username: healed
Post Number: 291
Registered: 3-2005
Posted From: 121.113.166.96
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 9:41 pm: |
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Thanks but no thanks for the rope brother Hombre. Ive seen that rope before, and it was used to pull in weak people to destroy their lives. When you finally come to your senses and rename your rope "Jesus saves and Hobart kills" then I will invite you on this side of my rope in my tug of war against you and your kind. Right now it looks like we are tugging closer to the winning line and your team is losing. Your yelling and screaming and calling us names over here but you can feel yourself sliding. You dig in but your not strong enough to hold. Im just glad Im not on your side of the rope anymore. |
hombre
Intermediate Member
Username: hombre
Post Number: 480
Registered: 8-2005
Posted From: 76.240.199.235
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 12:37 pm: |
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quote:UN-healed: ....Right now it looks like we are tugging closer to the winning line and your team is losing. Your yelling and screaming and calling us names over here but you can feel yourself sliding. You dig in but your not strong enough to hold.
...uh-huh.
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jrs
New member
Username: jrs
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2007
Posted From: 76.209.58.13
| | Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2007 - 10:36 am: |
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Wanted to say Hi to everybody.
Just found this site and find it interesting all the dialogue about Faith Assembly and Hobart Freeman. Got A lot of reading to do to catch up on all that has been said. WOW, probably will not have time.
I was a member of a church 81 to 91 that knew FA and very close to the teachings. I visited FA a number of times and had a chance to meet Hobart.
It’s been 17 years since I was a member of a church that actually taught the WORD.
Still looking for the balance, which I feel that personally I’ve been able to see some of. With all the things that happened in FA and it’s demise I still cannot say the teachings are wrong.
My observations – FA taught “The Faith Message” – This is only part of the Christian Faith. A step, if I can use that term. Much the same as Martin Luther bought out salvation is by faith. It’s almost like the growth stopped. The focus got away from teaching and on personal experiences.
So I would conclude that – I cannot say that the teachings of FA are false. Did FA digress into cultish tendencies? Yes.
Just some thoughts,
JRS |
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